1st US Army / XII Corps

[Rainbow Six]

Hi guys,

Quick question...the US Army Vehicle Guide states that both the above higher headquarters are located on the US East Coast.

Does anyone know if any published material gives a specific location for either of them?

Thanks

[Legbreaker]

Howling Wilderness has the 1st Army as "This army has effectively ceased to exist and headquarters personnel have dispersed".
The 78th Infantry Division (light) is located at Fort Dix, New Jersey with 900 personnel after absorbing 800 replacements from Omega according to Howling Wilderness.
The 43rd MP Brigade is located in and around Westover AFB in Massachusetts according to The Last Submarine. Howling Wilderness has the 43rd as having mutinied (after The Last Sub events early in 2001), killed it's commanding officer and dispersed.
There doesn't appear to be any indication where the Corps HQ is located, but my guess would place it, or at least the few remnants of it, with the 78th.

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks. I'd agree - Fort Dix seems to be the logical place to find any remaining elements of XII Corps.

[kalos72]

The 1st Army situation was always a puzzle to me...

Side note: Whats the difference between an Army and a Corps?

[kota1342000]

An Army is the next larger grouping of forces above a Corps, and may have 2 or 3 Corps under its command. For instance, Patton's 3rd Army in the Lorraine campaign (if I have this correct) commanded the XII, XV, and XX Corps. Each Corps having 2 or 3 Divisions normally.
The East Coast situation always made me scratch my head a little too. I eventually built an additional order of battle for after the 2001 drought disaster that would reflect the US Army getting back on its feet.

[Fusilier]

The 1st Army situation was always a puzzle to me...

Side note: Whats the difference between an Army and a Corps?

It's just the next formation level up. An army is made up of one or more corps and army level assets.

For example the British Army of the Rhine (Army level) is made up of I Corps, II Corps, and a couple other smaller assets.

[kalos72]

Kota - care to share that OoB? :)

[Abbott Shaull]

One of the thing is that lot of the unit that would be under the control of the 1st Army along the East Coast were rushed to the 5th and 6th Armies to help in the southwest. Also there additional units in the northwest that would of been more spread out on relief missions, but due to the Soviet invasion in the Alaska and Northwestern Canada and almost making it Washington State many units had been combat that would of been doing relief missions or running basic/AIT training.

I tend to agree there would be many more assets including new infantry units made out of excess Naval/Coast Guard/Air Force units....

[kalos72]

In my campaign I have been contemplating moving the 1st Army HQ back to Governors Island NYC...since I have MILGOV sending units to retake NYC. :)

[HorseSoldier]

Note also that NATO/western use of 'Army' as an echelon differs from Soviet/Warsaw Pact usage. Their 'Army' level units are the same size as NATO Corps (and Soviet WW2 era Corps did exist, but aren't relevant).

[Legbreaker]

I tend to agree there would be many more assets including new infantry units made out of excess Naval/Coast Guard/Air Force units....
It is my belief these excess personnel would have been assigned to sub units of the existing 78th and 43rd rather than create another unnecessary command structure as the Germans had a habit of doing in WWII.
It makes more sense to make up several company's of sailors, etc and attach those units to existing parent units who can utilize the manpower immediately than muck about organising a HQ and supporting units. These sub units are unlikely to be sent into combat, but could be used for civil duties - construction, static guard, food and supply acquisition, maintenance, etc. Some may have been gradually retrained for other ground based roles once the lack of ships became obvious and may eventually have been split up as the demands for manpower in other more vital units grew.
A division, even a brigade is a big organization. There's more than enough room for such sub units to be absorbed with barely a trace.

[Webstral]

I think First US Army HQ was in Richmond, VA until the timeframe of Howling Wilderness. I have no idea where I read that, though. Given that the US Army Vehicle Guide and Howling Wilderness only list combat units of brigade size or greater and support units acting in the combat role, it's highly likely that support units were operating under First US Army through 1998 at least.

Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

Note also that NATO/western use of 'Army' as an echelon differs from Soviet/Warsaw Pact usage. Their 'Army' level units are the same size as NATO Corps (and Soviet WW2 era Corps did exist, but aren't relevant).

That because in many cases the Soviet WW2 Tank and Mechanized Corps were used as the basis for Tank and Motorized Rifle Division as regular Infantry and Cavalry Divisions were later converted into what ever division that was needed....

[Abbott Shaull]

It is my belief these excess personnel would have been assigned to sub units of the existing 78th and 43rd rather than create another unnecessary command structure as the Germans had a habit of doing in WWII.
It makes more sense to make up several company's of sailors, etc and attach those units to existing parent units who can utilize the manpower immediately than muck about organising a HQ and supporting units. These sub units are unlikely to be sent into combat, but could be used for civil duties - construction, static guard, food and supply acquisition, maintenance, etc. Some may have been gradually retrained for other ground based roles once the lack of ships became obvious and may eventually have been split up as the demands for manpower in other more vital units grew.
A division, even a brigade is a big organization. There's more than enough room for such sub units to be absorbed with barely a trace.

I agree to a point. If the US Army had unit nearby that needed to reinforce it would move the personnel from those forces into the local Army units. In other cases where there was no nearby Army unit, and only thing local was Naval, Coast Guard, Marine they would be rolled up into and become an very limited used Marine/Naval Infantry unit, or used to beef security and such. Where it was Air Force unit largely, you would see some larger Security Squadrons.

In early 1999 it wouldn't be to much of stretch for units being assigned and still expected to answer to commanders up to 50 mile are further away. If they had resource they would still have reasonable amount of time to shift forces. By the start of 2000 the some unit who have been order to move decided to stay put, acting as Infantry. Largely due to no matter what many Divisions no matter what side they were on controlled very little of the territory they were expected to patrol. If the unit was concentrated it may be able to exert control of area of up to 10-15 mile radius of their supply base. While spread out units would control area where they have set up bases and control little more than what was within the range of their weapons, and where they mount patrols at...

Just some thoughts....

[Abbott Shaull]

I think First US Army HQ was in Richmond, VA until the timeframe of Howling Wilderness. I have no idea where I read that, though. Given that the US Army Vehicle Guide and Howling Wilderness only list combat units of brigade size or greater and support units acting in the combat role, it's highly likely that support units were operating under First US Army through 1998 at least.

Webstral

That was large amount of trouble. GDW focused on what they considered combat units and never got on the supply, support, engineering, and other units that would support. Even in the guides many of Support Companies were added to the Battalion information, but above that you didn't see much information, even the HHC/HHT/HHB were largely glossed over.

By the US vehicle guide one wouldn't know that the US Division Artillery were under the control of an Artillery Brigade HQ, nor did the do good job breaking down the various 'typical' brigades organization. There was no mention of any of the Support Battalion and Companies that would be assigned to Brigades and Divisions. Save thing with the Cavalry Squadrons of the Division being attached to the Aviation Brigade, of course this Squadron had two Air Cavalry Troops and to land base Mechanized/Motorized troops.

What was the TO&E of a the 'typical' Engineer Battalion, Medical Battalion, Supply and Transport Battalion, Maintenance Battalion, Signal Battalion, Military Intelligence Battalion, Chemical Company, and MP Company. I know they some differed only slightly from the Heavy Division as oppose to the Light Divisions, yet many of the Battalions would be vastly different for Heavy Division over the Light Division. I mean they went out of their way to include the ADA Battalions because they felt they would play a large role, but these units are some of the things many people don't consider.

Even if the GM and the gamer were smart enough to realize that the Light Motorized, Heavy Motorized, and the LAV-75 Light Armor Battalions were never realized and the use FAV other than scout vehicle with the 9th Motorized Division. I mean the FAV with TOW was just insane. Then add in the fact that the 9th Infantry by their information Artillery had been M109s Battalions. The number of the vehicles in Light Motorized Companies would mean someone had to be real creative in the use of them. It was like break down of 6 HMMWVs to move Platoon was crazy. The dismounted element for each vehicle was 3 and would mean your dismounted element wouldn't be much less than M2 Mechanized Platoon. I used 6 per platoon due to the fact that HQs and Mortar team would split the other 5 vehicles that the Company had and that still leaves none of them assigned for supply and medic evac.

Or the fact if you were on the ball to realize that the light armor unit and motorized units assigned to the Light Infantry Division were nothing but GDW taking information they probably got from Popular Mechanic article on the Rapid Deployment Force which morphed into Central Command. If they used the 3 Infantry Battalion in 3 Brigade like the 82nd and 101st were assigned as. Some could try to explain a reason why 101st and Light Infantry Division would have some type of Armor Battalion (note: with the Light Infantry Division they could be NG units in M60, also there is book I have filed away that had the 101st with it own organic M2s but never seen it on TO&Es that I seens). Ideally if the Division of the 6th, 7th, 10th Mountain, 25th, 82nd Airborne, or 101st Air Assault decided to pool vehicle they could Motorized one of their Brigades and if they were creative could assigned the armor battalion to this brigade and detach the infantry to provide security/division reserve for the Division trains. Nor did they touch on the Berlin Brigade, the 193rd Infantry Brigade in Panama, or the Airborne Infantry Battalion based in Italy. I am sure that the Berlin Brigade was all but wiped out, and the Airborne Task Force in Italy and the 193rd were used for reinforcement where needed (note: the 193rd had one Airborne Battalion so both this and the Italian based task force with the support unit of the 193rd could morph into the 173rd Airborne Brigade or all used as reinforcements for say the XVIII Airborne Corps).

Same with Marine Division lot of things were left out. Also the Reserve and National Guard Anti-Armor units that were assigned to the Infantry Division were lacking too and the Long Range Recon types as well lack of Ranger Battalion organization and a 'typical' Special Force Group. Also they 'deleted' several round-out brigade for active duty divisions too. The 6th, 7th, 10th, and 25th had light Infantry Round-out Brigade while supposedly the 1st and 4th Mechanized Division which were organized as Armor Division in real life and depending on where you got your information they were either full strength or had round out brigade assign. Seems like only the 2nd Armored Division that was based in the US at Fort Hood had all 3 Combat Brigades on active duty and even with this one Brigade was forward deployed in Europe as well as the 1st Mechanized had one brigade forward deployed in Europe.

Then their is the issue of the National Guard and Reserve Divisions that had been deployed to Europe before 1998 and the ability of the US Marine Corps to train and deployed the 5th and 6th Marine Divisions, but yet the 6th US Army in California has no mention of an additional Marine units that without doubt would be used to reinforce Marine in Korea and to form another Division and same thing on the East Coast. The fact, that even though in RL the 197th at Fort Benning was with the 24th Mechanized Division had been task to go Germany (Note: Even though the 24th Mechanized had been assigned to be part of the XVIII to provide the extra muscle). The 194th depending on the source you read was suppose to stay at Fort Knox as base to train new units or to deploy to Europe as reinforce there. The 177th Armor Brigade in Southern California which was never mentioned, but had mission to train other brigade as op-for, what happen to it.

In my opinion very few of the National Guard and Reserve Division that were found in Europe and Korea would of made it there in one piece. For that matter I don't see any unit in the states with the exception of the 82nd and 101st being deployed as they have stated in the vehicle guide. I do see the 10th Mountain going to Norway, but not the 6th Infantry Division, they would probably lose one combat Brigade with their Airborne Battalion to the 2nd Infantry Division and use absorb the Alaskan National Guard. After that personnel of the III Corps would fly over to preposition sites with two of the 5 Divisional HQ and all of the Aviation and Support units would go over. They would work to get to make sure that all Divisions had 4 combat brigades. Two in the line, one in reserve position and other one further back that would be rest-refit mode. 193rd with the Italian based Airborne Battalion would go with the XVIII Corps to make two weak brigades to be attached to the 82nd and 101st. The units of the 7th and 25th would deployed under the command of one the Division. 24th Mechanized would deployed with 2 Brigades to back up the XVIII Corps. The 197th and 194th would be wild cards, in that they could be deployed with the III Corps or rushed with their equipment to reinforce the 24th Mechanized Division. The 9th Test Bed Division would probably start out heading to Korea, but would be diverted to Korea with the adding couple National Guard units to such as the 163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment and Armor Brigade from Washington or California. Then rest of the NG Brigade from California, Oregon, and Washington going to other HQ of the 7th or 25th Division. Same thing with Mechanized, Infantry, and Armor National Guard Brigade from Texas to New England would be trained up and under the command of last three Division of the III Corps that didn't go in right away. Look at the deployment to the Middle East over the last 7 years and during Operation Desert Storm why this would happen.

Leaving the HQ of most of these National Guard Division free to absorb the new units being made at various military post that are playing host to Reserve Division which would do the Basic and AIT training and the National Guard HQ which was wait to be re-organized. All the while the Basic and AIT would have to send replacement to the three fronts too. In many cases the replacement sent out would outstrip what they Basic and AIT unit were able to produce. Meaning once the Soviet invaded Alaska that many of the National Guard unit that had been training to go to Europe, Korea or Middle East would be sent to the northwest. While once the Mexican crossed the border the Reserve Division doing Basic/AIT would be press in a come as your war with them in the southwest....

Just some thoughts...

[Adm.Lee]

Short answer: Field Army headquarters exist to run more than two corps. The rule of thumb is that a commander can keep track of 3 to 5 subordinates. If he's got more than 5 units under him, it's time to insert another layer of command & control.

FWIW, the "prewar" US Army had eight Armies (a.k.a. "Field Armies"). First through Sixth were regional organizations, meaning they were the administrative headquarters for all (or nearly all) Army assets in their region. I'm pretty sure that included training the Guard and Reserve units.

As I understand it, in the field, an Army is considered more permanent than a Corps (or, at least it was), and is supposed to handle more of the administrative, logistical, and support functions, such as pushing supplies forward to the divisions and attached formations, while the Corps HQs are supposed to focus more on tactical issues. I don't know if this doctrine is carried out anymore. A lot of deep rear-area functions, like post office units or laundries, are assigned to Armies, but not to Corps.

Having said all that, IMO, the JCS in Colorado would try to keep at least something in existence named First Army, to run Army operations in the (North)east. To me, that sounds like whatever's left of the 78th at Fort Dix, plus that post's cadre and whatever else is around. If it's at Richmond, it's well-placed to receive and deploy the returning guys from Omega. (Note I said well-placed, which isn't necessarily the same thing as well-prepared.)

I now have a hankering to look and see where the other Army & Corps HQs are in Howling Wilderness.

[Legbreaker]

Regardless of what happened IRL, or what may have happened if the nukes hadn't flown, large headquarters units, and large numbers of HQ's are a waste of resources in the T2K environment.
The key to a unit's success in 2000 is streamlining - removing unnecessary waste and allocating resources to maximise their usefulness. Manpower is a resource just as important as food, fuel, ammunition, vehicles, aircraft, etc, etc, etc. It may even be more important as the number of specialists decrease through injury, disease, famine, and so on.

Maintaining four seperate military forces (Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines) post nuke is extremely wasteful, especially when two out of the four have effectively lost their reason for exisiting (virtually no planes or ships left, and certainly no fuel for those still in one peice).

The Navy has probably suffered much more than the other arms too. When ships sink in the middle of the ocean, just getting into a lifeboat is no guarentee of survival. Chances are the vast majority of the ships company will perish before reaching safety. Therefore, I just can't see large units of naval personnel being formed. Yes there would be personell left on shore in supporting roles, but these would quickly be absorbed within the army, with a fair proportion also deserting if within continental US (as would members of the army, etc).

Keeping a naval command structure when almost no ships remain (a handful in the middle east and a few others scattered around the globe) is pointless. These Admirals, Captains, etc would find themselves (if they survived the nuking of the Pentagon and other areas) commanders of nothing but those few men (and women) who remained of their staff - not exactly a great resource of relevant skills and knowledge. The same could be said of the Air Force commands.

With next to no training for ground based operations, placing these people in command of ground units seems to me at least a really bad idea. therefore, why do it when there's the better alternative of attaching surplus naval and air force personell to army or marine units?

[/rambling comments]

[Abbott Shaull]

The Navy has probably suffered much more than the other arms too. When ships sink in the middle of the ocean, just getting into a lifeboat is no guarentee of survival. Chances are the vast majority of the ships company will perish before reaching safety. Therefore, I just can't see large units of naval personnel being formed. Yes there would be personell left on shore in supporting roles, but these would quickly be absorbed within the army, with a fair proportion also deserting if within continental US (as would members of the army, etc).

Keeping a naval command structure when almost no ships remain (a handful in the middle east and a few others scattered around the globe) is pointless. These Admirals, Captains, etc would find themselves (if they survived the nuking of the Pentagon and other areas) commanders of nothing but those few men (and women) who remained of their staff - not exactly a great resource of relevant skills and knowledge. The same could be said of the Air Force commands.

With next to no training for ground based operations, placing these people in command of ground units seems to me at least a really bad idea. therefore, why do it when there's the better alternative of attaching surplus naval and air force personell to army or marine units?

[/rambling comments]

Well why do you think many of the US Division weren't merge. Because every General wanted to protect their status. Wouldn't be no different when Naval and Air Force units were re-task for security/relief and other support missions... Then add in the fact that many of the officers and their officers and NCOs would have to take jobs that were lower ranks. They would move very slowly and time was on their side if they dragged their feet and stayed put to organize their own local defense/support units.

Just some thoughts...

[Abbott Shaull]

Short answer: Field Army headquarters exist to run more than two corps. The rule of thumb is that a commander can keep track of 3 to 5 subordinates. If he's got more than 5 units under him, it's time to insert another layer of command & control.

FWIW, the "prewar" US Army had eight Armies (a.k.a. "Field Armies"). First through Sixth were regional organizations, meaning they were the administrative headquarters for all (or nearly all) Army assets in their region. I'm pretty sure that included training the Guard and Reserve units.

As I understand it, in the field, an Army is considered more permanent than a Corps (or, at least it was), and is supposed to handle more of the administrative, logistical, and support functions, such as pushing supplies forward to the divisions and attached formations, while the Corps HQs are supposed to focus more on tactical issues. I don't know if this doctrine is carried out anymore. A lot of deep rear-area functions, like post office units or laundries, are assigned to Armies, but not to Corps.


The Third Army since the late 1980s was the HQ for the US Army component of the US Central Command.

[Legbreaker]

Protection of status in 2000 equals suicide.

What is status really? Would most generals and high ranking officers really think that without a working government status means jack? Are they really going to be expecting promotion, or be trying to protect their pensions?
Or would they (unless they're complete idiots) see that rationalisation of available forces is the best chance of survival and/or living in relative comfort post nuke?

Pre war expectations are just so much radioactive dust. What's happening in 2000 must be seen through the eyes of the survivors.

Sure some of the Air Force and Naval commanders may try to hang on in the early days, but I'd imagine that once they made a few errors in strategy and tactics, their men would either desert, or mutiny, or the commanders themselves may see the writing on the wall (if they're smart) and take the necessary actions to preserve what's left of their command, possibly retaining a firgurehead role while the true command moves to the army.

[kalos72]

Side note: You see alot of Colonels running entire divisions in cannon. I am sure there is SOME room for advancement if units are merged. Personally, it would be entirely stupid not to see merged units at some point soon.

[Webstral]

We covered a great deal of the discussion on the use of USAF and USN personnel after the Exchange in a previous thread. I’m going to maintain the same thing I did then. The use to which “surplus” airmen and seamen are put will depend a great deal on local circumstances. As long as the United States has a maritime interest, there will be a Navy. The scope and scale of the Navy’s missions and resources in 2000 is a matter for debate. By the same token, as long as there is something that flies there will be a USAF.

If memory serves, folks came up with a variety of arrangements for USAF and USN personnel that did not mean automatic induction into the Army or the Marine Corps (though I believe there was a general consensus that the Air Force and the Navy were going to have to give some warm bodies to the ground pounders). For my own part, I contributed the fate of USAF 355th Wing (which was absorbed by the Fort Huachuca command and reflagged as 355th Battalion), USAF 99th Wing (which absorbed all government forces in Clark County, NV before relocating to Sacramento and ultimate dismemberment), and the ad hoc 2nd Naval Infantry Battalion “Blue Two” (which was assembled in Alameda, CA for the purpose of providing a QRF for the San Francisco Bay Area).


Webstral

[Legbreaker]

I agree that there will always be an Air Force and Navy to some degree, however they're certainly not going to be very large organisations when all the navy can put together are a few small fishing boats and the odd tall ship.
The Navy may keep itself more independant than the Air Force though simply because they don't necessarily NEED the prewar technology so much - a boat will float no matter what it's using for power - sails, coal, fuel oil, nuclear. The same cannot be said for the Air Force which becomes almost irrelevant without fuel and spare parts.

That said, neither will be particularly strong or numerous post nuke. What's left of the navy (outside the middle east) is likely to be employed mainly in fishing and cargo transport, their military aspects largely put aside since a) they've got no warships left worth anything and b) neither does any enemy.

Give it a few decades and the various governments and economies getting back on their feet and those two forces are likely to be rebuilt from the skeleton left from the war. During the recovery period though, I rather doubt much effort would be put into maintaining the largely irrelevant units.

[Abbott Shaull]

Side note: You see alot of Colonels running entire divisions in cannon. I am sure there is SOME room for advancement if units are merged. Personally, it would be entirely stupid not to see merged units at some point soon.

You see lot of that or lower rank of the remains of the unit. There was like Major or Lt in charge of nothing more than a small company that had been 1st Czech 1st Air Assault Brigade in one of the module.

Yes it would be entirely stupid for the lack of merging units. Tow thing kept it from happening.

For NATO it looked on paper they were able to cover more of front trace line than they had people to actual control and patrol it. Next it the old game all military commander play that I learned in basic training. The Basic Training Company was suppose to have 4 Platoons. For some reason ours had only 3 Platoons so during training we were always short on transport. So short that one time the Captain made a remark to the 1st Sergeant one day in front of the company that the next time they didn't have the bodies to fill out the 4 Platoons they would still have 4 Platoons.

What didn't help either was the other 4 companies of the training Battalion were training Cohort Companies that were to go the 7th ID, 10th Mountain, and couple who were to go overseas to mechanized units. Which meant they were smaller than the regular training company too, and for some reason our company was like 7 weeks behind starting out training, due to catch recycle personnel from the other companies. So every time transportation request was sent to Battalion and then sent to the 1st Training Brigade HQ, they would assume since we had three Platoons, that they were smaller than the normal 56 man platoons that the Platoon Bays could hold.

The thing is by 2000 even if they had started to merge units, a lot of people would lose their jobs due to lack of record keeping and tracking since late 1997/early 1998. It is part of the reason why at times there was some resistance to merging, and no one wanted to lose out of the meager supplies they were still getting into 1998 and 1999.

Now looking at the Soviet/Pact I am surprise that many of the units that had dropped to below 5000 men hadn't been merged with other Division of similar strength. It was how they operated, if a unit got to certain percentage of combat effectiveness, the unit behind them would pass through to them. While the unit that was passed was either brought up to strength by replacement at time, other another unit was graphed to it or they were merged into another unit to bring it up to strength before they continue to follow the front to take their turn again in the front.

On the other hand by 1998 the supply line and ability of the Soviet to get new recruits to the front line had already cut down to the trickle and the pre-war divisions had to relearn how to be self-sufficient like they were before the war. Which was a problem for many of the category C and category Mobilized only Divisions. Each Division would go to great lengths to keep their artist to themselves and not share with anyone else, a throw back to the old system.

Again the Soviet Division would resist merging for fear of losing position. I mean if you were a Colonel in charge of Division and were being merged into a Division with a Major General it didn't take a genius to realize you would no longer be the Division commander, and then there was no telling if where in the 'new' Division you get a staff position or worse yet, you could find yourself as a lonely Regimental Commander.

Much like the 2nd Battalion of the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment at the end of WWII, was commanded by Major Winters as the acting Commander. Even though in the Regiment there were at Lt Colonels and senior Majors could of threw a fit to get the job, Major Winters was picked by the Regimental Commander and was kept there. After the war was over in Germany in 1945 after troops were being withdrawal in order to ship out to the Pacific and back home. Major Winters was shortly moved back to the XO slot in the Battalion as Lt Colonel was moved into the Commander slot. Lot of it depends on people being in the right place at the right time. There to many variables we don't know why a Colonel or lower were left in command of Divisions.

In many cases since it took an act of Congress to confirm all ranks of Colonel on up, it not so surprising, so if someone had been promoted after 1997, after Congress had been re-elected and in session things could get ugly. Lot of the Senior Commanders more or less had been only promoted since late 1997 because there was no Congress to go to get confirmation. It one of the reason why lot of the troops coming home from Europe were release from service. It was easier to do that than to figure out what rank many people would have as they tried to reorganized units out of those who made it back to the East Coast. It was easier to get them settled in for winter and then hopefully get them on the move afterwards....

[Abbott Shaull]

We covered a great deal of the discussion on the use of USAF and USN personnel after the Exchange in a previous thread. I’m going to maintain the same thing I did then. The use to which “surplus” airmen and seamen are put will depend a great deal on local circumstances. As long as the United States has a maritime interest, there will be a Navy. The scope and scale of the Navy’s missions and resources in 2000 is a matter for debate. By the same token, as long as there is something that flies there will be a USAF.

If memory serves, folks came up with a variety of arrangements for USAF and USN personnel that did not mean automatic induction into the Army or the Marine Corps (though I believe there was a general consensus that the Air Force and the Navy were going to have to give some warm bodies to the ground pounders). For my own part, I contributed the fate of USAF 355th Wing (which was absorbed by the Fort Huachuca command and reflagged as 355th Battalion), USAF 99th Wing (which absorbed all government forces in Clark County, NV before relocating to Sacramento and ultimate dismemberment), and the ad hoc 2nd Naval Infantry Battalion “Blue Two” (which was assembled in Alameda, CA for the purpose of providing a QRF for the San Francisco Bay Area).


Webstral

I would have to agree with this assessment. They would have to give up some bodies, but they would do begrudgingly and the Army and Marine would end up with the problem children of the units too.

[Legbreaker]

The thing is by 2000 even if they had started to merge units, a lot of people would lose their jobs due to lack of record keeping and tracking since late 1997/early 1998. It is part of the reason why at times there was some resistance to merging, and no one wanted to lose out of the meager supplies they were still getting into 1998 and 1999.

What supplies? Where are they coming from? Who is providing them?
As far as I can tell, units of Divisional even Brigade size became responsible for their own upkeep, especially those on the east coast of the US. Smaller units of battalion and company size (on paper) were (in the books at least) apparently supplied by their brigade or division. These smaller units are not dealt with in any detail in the published material as we know.

But we're not talking about Army or Marine divisions merging with each other, but the "orphaned" naval and air force personell and small units who simply aren't large enough to devote resources to supporting themselves. Stragglers essentially without a ship, support units without planes to service, units which no longer have a purpose and even if supplies were still flowing, would very likely be disbanded and their personell reassigned.

How many large naval units would still exist anyway? Many of the land bases were nuked, eliminating a large percentage of those not aboard ships, and as previously stated, it's EXTREMELY unlikely any significant numbers of shipborne personell would remain in units of more than a few dozen to a hundred (at most). Air Force support units would also make good targets for nukes, likewise reducing their numbers. How many AFB's are included in the Nuke target lists? How many would have died?

Omega may have had the effect of reforming some units, but once they hit the US we can surmise many were "demobilised" and sent on their way. The 78th ID for example, one of the closest units to Omega's landing site only received 800 men out of the tens of thousands aboard the ships. We can probably take that as an indication that a large percentage were basically abandoned by the military.

[stilleto69]

Leg,
Hate to disagree with you, but if you look at the target list given in Howling Wilderness, there are alot of Air Force & Navy land bases that were not nuked. I.e Bangor, WA; Whitman AFB, MO; Ellsworth AFB, SD; NAS Leemore, CA; etc. So there would still be "higher commands" around and personally from my experience in the service I know many Colonels, being very reluctant TDM or not giving up personnel or command to "Lower" ranking officers just because their base/facility is considered "no longer needed". Thus I see if they have to many would go the way of the "Sea Lord of Jacksonville". Furthermore, USAF units (especially support units) would have been dispersed shortly after the first nukes were used, thus the chance of every Air Force unit being nuked out of existence would be slim and the effort to justify them being nuked out of existence you might as well be playing "Gamma World".

Just a few thoughts

[Legbreaker]

Of course the target list only shows those places which received 0.5 megatons or greater...
The Soviets had numerous sub launched and ICBMs with less than 500 kiloton warheads (how many and which models I'll leave to others to post). Therefore is is quite conceivable all branches of the US military was effectively decapitated in the exchanges (just like the civilian government).

Something to keep in mind is that "Little Boy", the bomb that hit Hiroshima, was only about 13-18 kilotons - barely a drop in the ocean when compared to even half a megaton, the lower yield limit of the listed strikes.

[Abbott Shaull]

Quite correct Leg by 2000 every unit was pretty had to be self-efficient. I am talking about in 1998 and 1999 when the larger Commands were still using stocks to supply lower echelon units. It would be well into 1999 when many units commanders would get the hint that they were more or less be responsible for supplying the needs of their troops. It isn't one thing Higher ups would be to willingly to openly broadcast so as to keep discipline with the units under them. It one of the reasons why many of the Pact Division more or less gave their Army, Front, and higher HQ the bird and sat still. They had only started to get their areas of responsibility into shape to where the unit could exist. Leave that and with lack of steady re-supply from higher HQs is the reason many stayed put. As in the "Band of Brothers" where the unit was at some river and Germans were on the other-side, each side put up with the few mortars and artillery rounds that would be shot each other. As the Sgt told the new Lt. paraphrased a bit,"We both have shelter on our respective side, why ruin a good thing." Especially the members of the 506th it was the best they had been in since Dec., and they were in no hurry to go and destroy what limited shelter from the elements they had there.....

[HorseSoldier]

The 177th Armor Brigade in Southern California which was never mentioned, but had mission to train other brigade as op-for, what happen to it.

More likely looted for replacement personnel and disbanded than converted into a real maneuver unit, in my opinion, but still a question. Same issue with 1-509th at a JRTC still based at Ft Chaffee?

I do see the 10th Mountain going to Norway, but not the 6th Infantry Division, they would probably lose one combat Brigade with their Airborne Battalion to the 2nd Infantry Division and use absorb the Alaskan National Guard.

I don't buy stripping Alaska of a garrison, but if I remember right 6th ID's place was taken by 47th ID.

Another problem with 6th ID is that it's round out reserve component units are already spoken for in the GDW OOB -- they had a USAR round out LIB that got placed in the GDW fictional USAR combat division (forget the #, but it also includes the Iceland Defense Force), plus 5-297th or 6-297th Infantry, AK ARNG, who presumably are part of 2nd Arctic Scout Bde. (I can only assume GDW decided Alaska fielded versions of 207th Infantry Group because on paper the state had six battalions of 297th Infantry on the books back then, even though some were organized as Scout battalions, some as standard light infantry, and some as mechanized infantry.)

That leaves 6th ID with five or six battalions, depending on whether the Airborne battalion in AK back then is part of the division or pulled out to serve as a theater level asset, which was their intended role. When it's all said and done, it might have made more sense to leave 6th ID in Alaska and send one brigade of 47th ID to cover the mission they ended up with in the GDW history.

Just some thoughts...

Another problem I have with the GDW stuff is the presumed ability to just magically spin off new Army and Corps headquarters by magic. Most of those headquarters simply cannot have had any of the usual Army or Corps level assets under their command. Looking at Alaska, specifically, as GDW depicts it, I suspect that after the Soviet invasion "US X Corps" basically amounted to the commander of 10th Mountain taking off a hat with two stars on it from time to time and putting on a three star hat to make decisions involving the AK ARNG units, Canadian units in Alaska and whatever other odds and sods 10th Mountain had backing it up. I don't see where any Corps artillery or other assets would have come from.

[Webstral]

During the recovery period though, I rather doubt much effort would be put into maintaining the largely irrelevant units.

I concur completely. I've been thinking about events in New Mexico as they tie into the rest of the Southwest. Specifically, I foresee that many of the various specialized units and functions of the USAF in New Mexico will go by the wayside. Part of the reason is the obvious: the bases are overrrun by Mexican forces and the hordes streaming out of Albuquerque. Part of the reason is that many of the Air Force functions become moot after the Exchange. Relatively young and fit people who can march and use a rifle are needed at the front. During the course of the underdocumented fighting in southern New Mexico and the almost undocumented collapse of Albuquerque, the USAF presence in New Mexico is virtually wiped out. Cannon AFB survives and is an important bastion of MilGov power. Holloman AFB is destroyed during the 1998 campaign season, while Kirtland meets a fate remarkably like that of Luke AFB for about the same reasons.

The survivors of the significant USAF presence in New Mexico end up in a few locations. Some attach themselves to the so-called School Brigade as the brigade withdraws north. Some make their way west to Fort Huachuca. Some make their way east to Cannon AFB. Some never rejoin a larger unit and find their way among the surviving communities of central and northern New Mexico. A large of portion of this group end up being included in the defense force of Santa Fe, where the surviving government of the State of New Mexico still exists. Few of these people are doing the jobs for which they were trained, and fewer still are doing anything that could be called specific Air Force jobs.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

Getting back to the orginal question, I believe we're talking about the years 2000-2001?

[Webstral]

Of course the target list only shows those places which received 0.5 megatons or greater...
The Soviets had numerous sub launched and ICBMs with less than 500 kiloton warheads (how many and which models I'll leave to others to post). Therefore is is quite conceivable all branches of the US military was effectively decapitated in the exchanges (just like the civilian government).


It's true that Howling Wilderness claims "...With certain exceptions, only places that received .5 megaton or more are covered here (others are covered in the individual area discussions later in this book)" (Wiseman, 1988, p. 10). However, we really don't see much in the way of discussion of smaller nukes not on the master roster. I think there's some reason to believe that tactical nuclear weapons may have been used in the Pacific Northwest. Otherwise, though, there is scant evidence to support an assertion that all branches of the [US] military were effectively decapitated by nuclear strikes beneath the arbitrary reporting threshold of .5Mt, small-to-mid-size warheads launched by SLBM notwithstanding. Of course, everyone has to run their own game they way they want.

Various modules, including The Last Submarine, refer to ongoing production in 1998. Clearly, said production amounts to a fraction of the pre-Exchange totals. However, the Exchange didn't destroy civilization outright. One might say that modern society was dealt a mortal wound by the surgical strikes of 1997, and that the dying civilization continued to thrash about for a while. Where stocks of materials and power existed, production of ammunition, etc. might have continued.

This is why I have maintained that 1999 was the year of decision. The consumable leftovers of the modern world would have been consumed in 1998. The world would have struggled with the transition. By 1999, the new reality is driving the patterns of the world: spring planting in the US preceding congressional assembly, light infantry operations in Europe, and so forth. Most of the post-Exchange dying would have occurred during the previous twelve months, leaving the world in its new paradigm. Things are still winding down, of course, but the world has assumed many of its new dimensions. At this point, resupply from overseas becomes an inconsequential factor for the Americans.

Webstral





References

Wiseman, Loren K. (1988) Howling Wilderness. Bloomington, IL: GDW.

[Legbreaker]

True, the nukes alone didn't do it, but the following panic and riots certainly would have been major contributors. We have evidence in at least one of the modules (Last Sub springs to mind) that military installations were overrun by starving hordes. I can't imagine that this one instance was the only one across the entire country. Just the rumour of stockpiles of food and other supplies would be enough to turn a hungry crowd into a ravening horde with the ability to destroy anything and anyone that was between them and the possibilty of a meal.
The mere mention of a General or other entity having a cache of food stuffs for personal use would almost certainly result, given the conditions existant after the nukes, in death and destruction.

[HorseSoldier]

I'd think military installations in the Northeast would have all been overrun as described -- really, the population density in that part of the country along the coast would translate into a mass die off, taking any semblance of government or military control with it, in my opinion. Even places further inland with lower population levels were probably decimated by the footprint of starving maruader/refugees out of the big cities.

In other parts of the country where people aren't packed so tight, I'd think it would not necessarily play out the same way, especially not on the posts where training units were cranking out replacement personnel and would have large bodies of troops suited to holding a perimeter against lightly armed opposition.

[Legbreaker]

Training facilities however aren't usually command centres. My limited understanding is that most of the command centres are relatively close to urban areas, thereby exposing themselves to the hungry hordes.
There are of course exceptions, but who's to say these didn't receive a sub 500 Kt nuke? Even if they did survive there wouldn't be an awful lot of them left and it's unlikely they'd have the resources to make any significant impact.

[Dog 6]

My 1st ARMY as of 6/1/2003


1ST ARMY HQ: 1800 men Atlanta

3rd Infantry Regiment: 600 men , 37 M-2A2, 4 IPM1 , 4 105 mm How. D.C.

1st Aviation Brigade: 3000 men 28 UH-1, 2 CH-54, 8 UH-60 , 16 OH-58, 7 AH-1 , 11 CH-47, 4 OH 6 Units can be found all over the East cost




12th Corp HQ: 1900 men 1 M-60A3 Trenton

12th Engineer Brigade : 1200 men 3 M-728 CEV Fort Dix

12th supply Brigade : 3800 men Trenton units can be found all over 12th Corp A.O.

12th Transportation Brigade: 3000 men, 600 Trucks , 190 Tankers units can be found all over 12th Corp A.O.

12th Artillery Brigade: 2600 men, 43 105 mm How. 14 155 mm How.
units can be found all over 12th Corp A.O. HQ 200 men in Trenton

43rd MP Brigade: 2000 men 22 M-113, 8 105 mm How, 21 Peacekeeper, 19 LAV 150 Massachusetts

78th Reserve Infantry Division: 4200 men, 6 M-48A5's, 15 M-113's, 22 105 mm How. Fort Dix

42nd Mechanized Division : 6000 men, 81 M-60A4 , 145 M-113, 31 M-109 New York

190th Mechanized Brigade: 3000 men 33 M-60A3, 129 M-113 , 17 M-109 , 22 M901 Maine

2nd provisional Marine Regiment : 900 men Toms River

13th Corps HQ : 2900 men 1 IPM-1 Atlanta

13th Engineer Brigade : 4000 men 1 M-728 CEV
units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

13th supply Brigade: 5000 men Atlanta

13th Transportation Brigade: 4200 men 900 Trucks , 290 Tankers
units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

13th MP Brigade: 3900 men 9 Peacekeeper, 31 M-706, 42 M750 units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O. HQ 300 men in Atlanta

13th Artillery Brigade: 3100 men 31 105 mm How, 41 155mm How
units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

108th Reserve Infantry Division: 5500 men, 18 M-48A5, 33 M-113, 44 105 mm How HQ Savannah units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

18th Motorized Infantry Division: 9000 men, 152 M-8, 337 LAV 25, 57 155 mm How, 4 LARS Florida

198th Mechanized Brigade: 3500 men 190 APC/IFV , 49 tanks (M-48A5/ M-60A3/4/5, M-1A1/2) 21 M-109, 8 M901 Fort Benning

5th provisional Marine Regiment :1700 men , 3 M-60A1 Savannah


enjoy :D

[Legbreaker]

It's obviously not very T2Kish, but not a bad job pulling it all together.
Gives a good idea of what could have been.

[Dog 6]

It's obviously not very T2Kish, but not a bad job pulling it all together.
Gives a good idea of what could have been.

its my game. its not canon

[Legbreaker]

Exactly! And you (as well as everyone else) have every right to do whatever you want in your game.
Personally I wouldn't use it as is for the 1st Army, but it's a damn fine base to work from if I were looking at another collection of units. Plenty of thought and good work in there.

[Dog 6]

thanks. I don't have a civ gov, my starting army is more then 2 time the size of canon's. and my ABM's shot down a ton of nukes....

[Abbott Shaull]

Leg I am starting to think if someone said they totally agreed with you and you had done an outstanding job of posting information your would find something about your own post to nag about...

JMHO...

[Webstral]

The interaction ends when everyone agrees. As long as there is a bone of contention, the interaction continues. I have several friends whose wives operate on the same principle because some interaction--any interaction--is better than no interaction.

[Abbott Shaull]

Now you know how I feel most of the time reading some of the replies...

And I thought my wife could be bad it at times...

[Webstral]

I'm lucky. My wife prefers silence to squabbling--genuinely prefers silence (as opposed to the ones who fervently claim to hate sniping, squabbling, and nitpicking, yet never miss an opportunity to engage in those forms of interaction).

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

Leg I am starting to think if someone said they totally agreed with you and you had done an outstanding job of posting information your would find something about your own post to nag about...


If we all agreed with each other all of the time, what would be the point of discussing anything? As long as everyone is civil to each other there's absolutely nothing wrong with disagreement - it's healthy and promotes growth of the game we all love.

Pulling apart other peoples ideas and theories and breaking them down is a good thing. It's how we learn and improve. One person alone makes mistakes, overlooks vital information and generally has a bias towards their own way of thinking. The more people who are involved in developing an idea, the more rounded and comprehensive the result is likely to be.

The key to it all though is keeping a cool head and realising that there is no malice behind anyones comments. We're all here for the same reasons.

[kota1342000]

Kota - care to share that OoB? :)

Yes, and sorry about that Kalos, I got put under a couple of "hurry up" loads and then had a breakdown so I couldnt get net service for a bit. This might be messy as I havent done any editing but I have to make up for not getting back sooner LOL

1st US Army
411th Engineer BDE, 800 Men, Allentown PA
The 411th is just another nearly unknown Brigade in the order of battle that may have prevented the East Coast of the United States from decades of total anarchy. Originally assigned to transportation and logistical support for movement of essential military traffic in Pennsylvania, the Brigade HHC personnel were at the Pentagon receiving orders at the beginning of the November Massacre. The Brigade XO promptly assumed command and set to work.
The Engineers first established fortified aid and recovery locations at several road junctions on Interstates 76, 78, 80, and 476, the Brigade collected as many survivors as possible and immediately instituted a “food for work” program to replace the collapsed currency system. Centered on Allentown Pennsylvania, the 411th doesn’t just grow crops but also groups of people that are capable of surviving and thriving in a post-technology enviorment. The Brigade runs an improvised academy to teach steam power, farming, mechanics, fishing, hunting, alternative energy, and many other skills.
This alone is a major accomplishment, but in late 2000, the 411th received orders from its parent unit the 1st US Army to disband and disperse, with no reasons given. The CO of the 411th had no intention of doing this and there are packs of rumors that it was a group from the 411th that helped re-establish the 1st US Army headquarters.

12th Corps
In addition to
78th ID (Fort Dix NJ) and
43rd MP Bde (1 remaining loyal company in sporadic contact)

428th Field Artillery BDE, 300 Men, 6 M119A1 Newark NJ
The 428th is a formation made up of returning veterans, volunteers, and lately refugees who have decided to enlist as well. They had been prepared to deploy to Europe before Norfolk Virginia was struck by a nuclear weapon, and received instructions to move north to assist 1st Army in reconstruction and recovery efforts. Their presence in south Newark had been fairly low key, and spent most of the time assisting civilian authorities until marauders got out of hand. The 428th now controls a large strip of area centered on Newark Liberty International Airport and uses the NJ Turnpike as a major supply and transportation route. Moderate battles with marauders and the occasional pirate or UBF fisherman vessel serve to keep the 428th on its toes.

25th corps
27th Infantry Brigade, Camp Johnson Vt, 500 troops
The 27th was raised from the people of Vermont, with most of the troops coming from the towns of Montpelier, Rutland, and Burlington. They have been in combat several times with New American forces operating out of Maine and are holding the line at Camp Johnson, and protecting the civilian population. They are popular with the residents, as they are making it possible for reconstruction efforts to begin.
76th Infantry Brigade, Camp Keyes Maine, 600 troops
Raised in mid 2000 from refugees from Portland, Augusta, and Brunswick, primarily out of a desire to be rid of the New American forces in the area. Since they have been raised and activated, they have anchored themselves in Camp Keyes, and range all throughout the south of Maine, waging a guerilla war against New America.
89th Military Police Brigade, Manchester NH, 600 troops
The MPs original assignment in New Hampshire was civil relief and restoring order; instead they have found themselves fighting a guerilla war with forces of New America. They have gained the trust of the population all over the state, and has built up a much larger resistance than the New Americans realize.
23rd Infantry Division (medium), Bangor Maine, 2900 troops
The 23rd was the brain child of a refugee/old soldier moving south from Maine where New America had taken hold of several communities. He was able tomake his way south to the 78th Infantry Division, garrisoning sections of New York City, then convinced the local CG to allow him to build a military unit; he was a retired Colonel in the US Army. Refugees were convinced to join from Binghamton, Albany, and the suburbs of New York. They were then trained up by a cadre from the 78th, and then members began to collect, repair, and convert vehicles into light armored vehicles resembling the M20 and M8 armored cars. They then traded some of the newly recovered vehicles to the 78th Infantry for heavier weapons to arm them, and fought their way north through marauders and New American patrols back to Bangor Maine, and threw the New American garrison out on its ear. When word of this reached 1st US Army, messengers were sent with activation declarations for them as the 23rd Infantry Division, official orders, and a duffle bag full of shoulder patches. They have been active against New America ever since.

40th corps
155th Armored Brigade, Ft Lee VA, 450 troops, 8 M60A3, 10 M48A5
Getting tired of harassment from several marauder groups, gangs and paramilitary groups, the 151st Field Artillery (Milgov) and the 184th Infantry (Civgov), both holding Ft Bragg, decided to form up another brigade out of volunteers from the refugees that were coming in as well as cadre from returning European units. Once trained and equipped, the 155th pushed up I-95 to Ft Lee, and not only cleared the I-95 corridor, holding several crucial road junctions on the way, but also secured the western flank of Norfolk, and opened up a food supply route back to Ft Bragg.
87th Infantry Division (mech), Richmond VA, 2400 troops, 6 M48A5
The 87th is composed of several hundred veterans of the European theatre who were wounded and shipped back to the states. Most of the rest of the division are refugee volunteers from Washington DC, Richmond, Petersburg, Greene, all the way west to Bedford. They took charge of the next shipment of military equipment and vehicles that was supposed to have gone to Europe before plans were drafted for the evacuation of Europe. They have garrisoned the city of Richmond, and are using the surrounding area’s resources to feed and protect the local population.
151st Field Artillery Brigade, Ft Bragg NC, 500 troops
A pre-war reserve brigade, the 151st is composed of inactive reservists who have been recalled to duty and formed up. The 151st received older M114A1 155mm howitzers, and was ordered to perform civil relief operations in the area of Ft Bragg. They have since worked together with the 184th Infantry Brigade, a Civgov unit, against higher orders in the beginning. The unit has established a firebase at Ft Bragg, and has helped support civilian recovery in Fayetteville, Clinton, Lumberton, Raeford, and Lillington. They have also helped the 184th establish forward bases at MCAS Cherry Point, Seymore Johnson AFB, and Camp Lejune.

[Legbreaker]

With the demand for armoured vehicles in Europe, Korea, the Middle East, Alaska and South West USA, how do you justify the existance of useful tanks (the M60's and M48s) and artillery on the east coast?
Omega as we know required all heavy equipment to be turned over to the Germans (and I'm sure the Americans wouldn't have been able to slip even one tank past them) so I can't see them coming from there.
Anything left in the US is likely to have either been shipped overseas, or towards Texas or Alaska where there's actual fighting rather than "simple" civil disorder.

[HorseSoldier]

27th Infantry Brigade, Camp Johnson Vt, 500 troops

Is that unit in addition to the 27th Lt Inf Bde out of New York that was 10th Mountain's Round Out brigade (and which GDW has going somewhere else, I forget where)?

Anything left in the US is likely to have either been shipped overseas, or towards Texas or Alaska where there's actual fighting rather than "simple" civil disorder.

Agreed.

[kalos72]

Cause a GM cant play out a mission where the party finds some recently salvaged tanks sitting inside a warehouse on some lonely port... :P

[kota1342000]

Dog, your OOB is pretty extensive but cool. Ive had game groups that would be doing the "happy dance" if they were around that much protection. The inclusion of a pair of Marine Brigades warms my heart too.

With the demand for armoured vehicles in Europe, Korea, the Middle East, Alaska and South West USA, how do you justify the existance of useful tanks (the M60's and M48s) and artillery on the east coast?
Omega as we know required all heavy equipment to be turned over to the Germans (and I'm sure the Americans wouldn't have been able to slip even one tank past them) so I can't see them coming from there.
Anything left in the US is likely to have either been shipped overseas, or towards Texas or Alaska where there's actual fighting rather than "simple" civil disorder.

LMAO
I kind of figured Leg would flip out :D
This OOB comes from a 2001 and 2002 time period, and is actually heavily influenced by actions by player groups over the years that REALLY took things in directions that I had to "paint quickly" to keep a story in front of them, and to tell the truth the results make for good follow on material.

First, the 155th received some of their armor from a player group that truly did the unexpected and ran a salvage operation off the coast of Norfolk where several RO-RO vessels had been sunk in the latter stages of Reforger. Without going into too many details, it started out as kind of a sideshow to a main event and then really began to show results so I let them go down that track...but they paid dearly for it. Heroes are heroes because of suffering. :sagrin:

Second, the way I run Going Home is with a larger TF24 (I know the book says TF34, but traditionally Second Fleet designates most of their task forces in the twenties series) and I have USAEUR bringing as much of their heavy equipment home with them. Several reasons for this;

1. Withdrawal from Europe is not a de facto surrender. Nor is the US Army and Air Force in Europe going to turn in all unit colors and call it a day. Reasoning for withdrawal is stalemate in Europe, inability or lack of desire for allies to assist, and need of those forces elsewhere.

2. The thought that Germany would demand compensation for being "abandoned" is totally outrageous. After more than 4 years of conventional and thermonuclear conflict, the fact that both the NATO and Warsaw Pact sides are near completely broken should be at least some testament that American involvement helped prevent a total German collapse. Not to mention that Germany basically started the European side of the Twilight war (version 2 book).

3. With very few remaining civilian authorities left to negotiate the how and why of military movements, it would fall to General Lewis (SACEUR) to make that decision. I think there's a strong possibility that removing a large portion of heavy equipment from the theater would help to let the battlegrounds cool off enough to allow for talk to begin on doing things other than throwing lead and explosives at each other.
On the other hand, imagine being commanders of Polish, Soviet, Italian, hell...even French units and seeing the Americans hand several hundred working armored vehicles over to the German Army and then taking off. Doesn't sound like a very stable situation to me...and SACEUR is an NPC, so I run him.

Third, "simple" civil disorder isn't what I read in modules like Kidnapped, Allegheny Uprising, and especially not Urban Guerilla. New America, the Sealord of Jacksonville, the UBF Fishermen, most of the 43rd MP Brigade, the Seminole Tribes, and these are just some of the major bad guys I can think of from the top of my head without referring to any of the books. I could see a Division or Brigade commander being granted a request for available armor if the situation warrants it. By the way, General Cummings who chairs the JCS is also an NPC. :D

...and if you don't like it, tough. My game, and look up and to the left for the "back" button. :D

[kota1342000]

[QUOTE=HorseSoldier;25410]Is that unit in addition to the 27th Lt Inf Bde out of New York that was 10th Mountain's Round Out brigade (and which GDW has going somewhere else, I forget where)?[QUOTE=HorseSoldier;25410]

The 10th went to Norway and later was deployed by air to Fort Greeley AK to help form X Corps. But no Horse, not in addition to; I just use the 27th as a seperate Brigade.

[Legbreaker]

I've no problem in what you do with you game, I was just interested in the reasons behind it.
Salvaged tanks from a sunken transport? Not a problem (unless you though such things as corrosion and water damage into the mix ;))

Note the Germans were not after compensation for the US withdrawal - it was a straight trade. The US was to hand over all heavy equipment in return for the fuel they need to get home.

Everyone's happy with the result. Less mouths to feed in Europe, less soldiers to equip with limited resources, and greater capabilities for those units left on the line. Even with the reduction in overall troop numbers, I'd think the front would remain just as secure - still just as many tanks, APCs and artillery peices ready to pound any enemy offensive action.

I agree that "simple" doesn't really describe the situation away from the front lines in continental US, however the opposition the Government forces face are unlikely to have tanks and other armour necessitating the retention of tanks away from the formal warzones. It doesn't seem logical for heavy equipment to be kept in the eastern states when there's a full blown war in the south and north west in which the US forces are underresourced and being pushed back. Your explaination of a salvaged ship though does explain why there may be armour in the east.

[stilleto69]

I agree with you Kota. In my game I had JCS General Cummings & SACEUR General Lewis make a deal with the German Military Government that would remain controversial after the war. The deal was that the Americans would be allow to retain their heavy equipment in exchange for several "captured/transferred" SS-20s (4) & 2 Pershing IAs. Thus allowing the Germans to retain a viable "deterrence" against French incursions & any possible Soviet/Warsaw Pact counteroffensives.

P.S. Before any canon "nazis" go crazy, in my game not every tactical nuclear weapon (i.e. Pershing IA/II or SS-20) was used. Some are still intact in fact there are several GLCMs still in the UK (Shhh... just don't tell HMG :D)

[Rainbow Six]

Some are still intact in fact there are several GLCMs still in the UK (Shhh... just don't tell HMG :D)

I used more or less the same scenario in my UK work, with a handful of GLCM's and their crews based in the South of England...they had no fixed location (for security they move around quite a bit). The only difference was that HMG know about it and have assisted the Americans by providing a small number of British troops to act as a security detachment.

With regard to the presence of heavy armour in the north east of the US (or anywhere else for that matter), I tend to think that a lot would depend on exactly when said armour was "recovered" (e.g. if it was on a ship, when the ship was salvaged, etc). Personally I would agree that anything found up until a certain period of time - I'd say the end of 1998 / start of 1999 - would probably be transferred to either the Texan or Alaskan fronts, but I think that as you move into 1999 the capabilty to move armour across the country would pretty much cease to exist and anything recovered in the north east would stay in the north east.

[kota1342000]

I've no problem in what you do with you game, I was just interested in the reasons behind it.
Salvaged tanks from a sunken transport? Not a problem (unless you though such things as corrosion and water damage into the mix ;))

Note the Germans were not after compensation for the US withdrawal - it was a straight trade. The US was to hand over all heavy equipment in return for the fuel they need to get home.

Everyone's happy with the result. Less mouths to feed in Europe, less soldiers to equip with limited resources, and greater capabilities for those units left on the line. Even with the reduction in overall troop numbers, I'd think the front would remain just as secure - still just as many tanks, APCs and artillery peices ready to pound any enemy offensive action.

I agree that "simple" doesn't really describe the situation away from the front lines in continental US, however the opposition the Government forces face are unlikely to have tanks and other armour necessitating the retention of tanks away from the formal warzones. It doesn't seem logical for heavy equipment to be kept in the eastern states when there's a full blown war in the south and north west in which the US forces are underresourced and being pushed back. Your explaination of a salvaged ship though does explain why there may be armour in the east.

Sorry about quoting the whole thing here; still learning the ropes with posting LOL

Oh corrosion was a very big deal with recovered equipment, and that worked out ok as a source of "busy work" for everyone.

The fuel from the FRG was the piece I forgot; knew I was forgetting something.
With my game and the way I see it, that's the weakest part of any trade. CENTCOM is pumping out fuel for military and recovery purposes, and I cant see who in the chain of command wouldn't think that moving EUCOM wouldn't be high priority.

As for the situation in the north for Alaska and the southwest, I have additional OOBs to help plug the gaps, but I also moved 7th US Army (NOTRHAG from USAEUR) to Colorado and 4th US Army to California. I haven't finished the full OOB for 9th US Army (Alaska), but heres for the southwest area, and again this is in addition to already established OOB for the area;

5th US Army

220th Military Police BDE, 250 Men
the 220th was responsible for security of the west coast embarkation points unitl the November massacre sparked large scale riots and civil unrest in the mid-west. The 220th repeatedly put down large riots in the major cities of Cheyanne, Denver, Detroit, Chicago, Albuquerque, and Dallas. The unit fought poorly during the Mexican/Soviet invasion, and currently resides near Salina KS. They are one of the least respected units; to the point that they had to become a 5th Army asset because the 90th, 110th, and 122nd Corps refused to have them under their commands.

420th Engineer BDE, 400 Men
the 420th was a national guard brigade detailed to operate with Southern Command in Panama until the Mexican/Soviet invasion occurred. They were airlifted to South Texas and performed a defense in depth using defensive minefields, and demolishing bridges across the front. They took appauling casualties, and was withdrawn to refit. They remain a 5th Army asset, and frequently operates with all Corps in the 5th US Army.

110th corps

256th Infantry Brigade (Mech) Camp Gruber OK, 500 troops, 10 stingray II
the 256th was raised from friendly civilian militia and veteran troops coming out of the hospital. Upon forming, the 256th moved forward and attacked both the Saltillo and Tampico regiments of the Mexican Army, destroying their ability to mount offensive action against the 110th corps, and helping to take pressure off of the 90th and 122nd Corps. They have remained on the front since, working out of Camp Gruber.

57th Field Artillery Brigade, Ft Riley KS, 400 troops, 22 M114A1
the 57th is a National Guard brigade that fought with distinction in Europe, but like the 631st, fell victim to a tactical nuclear strike, and was nearly destroyed. Many survivors deserted before the brigade could be moved back to the US for refit.
On arrival, the 57th was given older 155mm howitzers, and placed in Ft. Riley as a reserve group. They and the 20th Engineers were the first two units of the 110th Corps.

20th Combat Engineer Brigade (Abn), Liberal KS, 650 troops
The 20th is a curious amalmagation of combat engineer troops from recovered wounded from the 82nd Airborne, 6th Air Cav Cmbt Brigade, 173rd Airborne Brigade, and even some engineers from the Special Forces of various groups. With rejoining their units unlikely in the face of danger coming across the border to the south, they requested and granted permission to form their own brigade, which was activated in late 1998. They functioned as both conventional engineers and as sappers in combat, and worked closely with the 57th FA until the formation of 110th Corps.

29th Infantry Division (Mech), Ft Sill Ok, 2600 troops, 10 Stingray II, 6 M-60-2000
the 29th was activated by popular demand as the volunteers coming out of the occupied territories and from behind the friendly lines swelled. They were armed up with a recently acquired stock of arms, equipment and vehicles that had just been recaptured from the Mexican Army. They went fully active not long after the victory of the 256th, and moved forward in their wake, retaking Ft Sill and keeping the pressure on the Mexicans. They also faced off with forward elements of Division Cuba of the Soviet Army, and crushed the forward battalion in a surprise night action.

479th Field Artillery BDE, 450 Men, 10 M119A1
the 479th was recently reformed and given the colors of the 479th who had been vaporized by a tactical nuclear weapon in Europe. They are the most recent addition to the 110th Corps and have made a good account of themselves, to the point that they have been ordered several times to withdraw as they were close enough to the Tampico Regiment as to bring their howitzers into the direct fire role.

90th US Corps

103rd Field Artillery BDE, 600 Men, 11 M198
the 103rd had been directed to deploy to Europe, then cancelled and ordered to Iran, cancelled, orders cut for Korea, cancelled, had members pulled from the units as replacements, and when orders came up for Alaska, the Brigade CO blew up and asked if FORCECOM was actually sure this time. The next day, the Mexican/Soviet Invasion occurred, and was in the right place at the right time in Ft Hood to begin the first of the organized defense. They performed a defense in depth, using their howitzers sometimes in the direct fire with terrifying effect. The 103rd was assigned to 90th Corps along with the 49th Armored and 95th Infantry Divisions.

[Dog 6]

thanks Kota ! :)

[HorseSoldier]

[QUOTE=HorseSoldier;25410]Is that unit in addition to the 27th Lt Inf Bde out of New York that was 10th Mountain's Round Out brigade (and which GDW has going somewhere else, I forget where)?[QUOTE=HorseSoldier;25410]

The 10th went to Norway and later was deployed by air to Fort Greeley AK to help form X Corps. But no Horse, not in addition to; I just use the 27th as a seperate Brigade.

Sorry, that sentence probably wanted to cohesiveness. What I meant is that in real life, 27th LIB was the round out brigade for 10th Mountain Division during the Cold War era. GDW has them being part of the 42nd Division instead, and I guess assumed that 10th Mtn was a full three brigade active duty division.

[Abbott Shaull]

One thing that justify it would be that the M60s and M48s were awaiting transportation overseas and never it over the pond. Much likely you would find these vehicle along East, West, and Gulf Coast with many of them in the west having been sent to California to reinforce units there....

[HorseSoldier]

Any at Gulf Coast ports not irradiated too badly would be a pretty easy haul to Texas via rail, and would have probably been sent to bolster 49th AD and other units there.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah I know...The west coast would of went to the 40th and the gulf coast to the 49th. East Coast would of been up for grabs...

[Rainbow Six]

I guess you could make a case for any recovered armour on the south east coast ending up at Fort Benning with the CivGov units based there (or maybe Fort Bragg)? Still think anything found on the north east coast from spring 1999 onwards would have stayed in the north east though.

Just out of interest, in a V1 timeline was there anywhere in CONUS the US Army would have sent any armour that had been damaged in Europe or elsewhere but could be shipped back to be repaired?

[HorseSoldier]

In the post-nuclear chaos and displacement, I'd think that just about anybody who could grab control of port facilities or interdict rail lines might end up in possession of some armor. This could include MilGov or CivGov units who diverted stuff headed for the front because they felt they needed them more, New America enclaves, local warlords or communities, or even Mexican/Division Cuba forces who overran ports in southern California and Texas. I doubt there was all that much stuff laying around to begin with after almost a year of high intensity conflict in multiple theaters, but it could turn up most anywhere in most anyone's hands by 2000. (Access to a good deal of military kit might help explain why the Warlord of Memphis seems to have been such a pain in the ass for MilGov, for instance.)

As far as armor repair/refurbishing, Anniston Army Depot in Alabama does rebuilds on M1s and assorted other AFVs in real life. I don't know if they were the only facility set up to do that work in the Cold War era. I'd think doing even extensive repair work in theater would make better logistical sense than shipping damaged tanks back CONUS and then back over to Europe or where ever in a WW3 scenario where sealift and airlift have to have been badly stressed.

[pmulcahy11b]

As far as armor repair/refurbishing, Anniston Army Depot in Alabama does rebuilds on M1s and assorted other AFVs in real life.

Red River Army Depot near Texarkana used to do that, I believe into the late 1990s. They employed a lot of people in Texarkana.

[Legbreaker]

I agree that come late 1997 (post nukes) any vehicles in a theatre are likely to stay in theatre. It would have to be fairly common knowledge that the situation back home is terrible and that any damaged vehicles sent back are either not coming back, or will simply sit there unrepaired.
The flow of replacement vehicles and parts would also have dried up so keeping what a unit has, no matter what it's condition, would be very important. They many not be repairable by the unit, but they still represent a valuable source of spares.

[pmulcahy11b]

So that's why the stocks of vehicles go down so drastically. It's not just that so many have been destroyed, it's that there are so few that still work. Some relatively stationary units may actually maintain "junkyards" for spare parts.

[Legbreaker]

I'd imagine that even the more mobile units would try and take as much with them as they could. Heavily damaged vehicles would be stripped down to the last nut and bolt, nothing but the twisted chassis left behind. A bunch of spare parts is usually easier to carry (and quicker to get hold of what's needed) than a hulking great wreck.

[HorseSoldier]

Red River Army Depot near Texarkana used to do that

Forgot about them -- the first Bradley I was on had a data plate showing it upgraded from M3A0 to A1 standard at Red River.

If the refurbish/repair lines CONUS weren't doing a lot of work on repairing battle damaged stuff from OCONUS (which, even pre-nuke, I think is kind of a long shot), they might be hubs for semi-official or even standardized mods to existing vehicles like the "Stingray Juniors" and such.

So that's why the stocks of vehicles go down so drastically. It's not just that so many have been destroyed, it's that there are so few that still work. Some relatively stationary units may actually maintain "junkyards" for spare parts.

Yeah -- without a functional logistics tail stretching back to a functional nation state keeping just about any system with any complexity to it running is going to require regular miracles on demand from mechanics and other support troops. Cannibalizing anything that isn't functioning anymore is going to definitely be a big part of that -- some stuff just isn't going to be reproducable to standard by a machinist, however skilled, without access to facilities above and beyond that organic to division/corps/army level maintenance units.

This would be a much bigger headache for aviation units than ground vehicles, since it's much easier for a parts failure to be much more catastrophic, and probably plays an equal role to combat attrition and fuel scarcity in the general clearing of European skies by 2000.

[Rainbow Six]

I'd think doing even extensive repair work in theater would make better logistical sense than shipping damaged tanks back CONUS and then back over to Europe or where ever in a WW3 scenario where sealift and airlift have to have been badly stressed.

Good point...it was just a passing thought I had, but thinking some more about it what you say sounds much more logical...

[Abbott Shaull]

There are suppose to be Maintenance units that are able to carry out these types of repairs in the rear of the theater of operation. It just cheaper to outsource such repairs during peace time. In fact, many of these employees would be used to bring such designated units up to speed while the shops back home would update vehicle before they were to deployed overseas.

[Webstral]

The idea of civilians doing some of this work overseas leads to some interesting character generation possibilities. Some of these folks could find themselves drafted into forward support units in 1998 and beyond.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

The idea of civilians doing some of this work overseas leads to some interesting character generation possibilities. Some of these folks could find themselves drafted into forward support units in 1998 and beyond.

Webstral

Which brings up contractors such as Blackwater/Xi. They might be potential great assets, but possibly also uncontrollable since they aren't used to having to follow military rules. Do you really want these people in your unit?

[Abbott Shaull]

Another source of armed thugs/marauders depending on your perspective of things...

[Abbott Shaull]

Actually let's face it, many of the Heavy Support and Maintenance units at Theater level would have these civilians due to the fact that the military didn't keep people with their skill set in, and if they were in, there are too few for all the of the Theaters of operations that open up.

[Legbreaker]

Give it a few years of warfare though and you could find anyone virtually anywhere. A clerk for example originally assigned to process salary payments may well find themselves on the workshop floor, as skilled and as efficient as any mechanic. (Hands on training)

[Abbott Shaull]

Try but with the time line of V1 game. Many of these in Theater service centers would only have started to trained the people in Uniform to a point where many of them could be sent back to States when things feel apart.

Granted even the in Rifle Companies, the people such as the supply specialist and others who aren't normally 'trigger pullers' will have many more than cup filled and then some...

[kalos72]

So basically an Army/Corps is just a larger collection of units with more assets to support those units correct?

How would an Army/Corp work in a T2k world? I cant see them doing much more then giving orders at this point anyway...

[Abbott Shaull]

Most of these level of commands on both sides are collapsing and being absorbed by the Division/Brigade that was in the area.....

[kalos72]

I would agree...it appears now more so about location then actual supporting units.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well GDW kinda overlooked the fact that Corps and Armies are made up several independent Companies/Troop/Batteries, Battalions/Squadron, and Brigade/Regiments. I am sure they would be several of these units even if they are almost none existent compared to pre-war TO&E still mugging around the areas too.

[HorseSoldier]

I agree -- I can see Corps or higher assets that are no longer relevant being disbanded completely, or retasked (like ADA units in Europe), but some of those units will still retain valid missions or be easily converted to do tasks that are still valuable circa 2000 (like Corps/Army engineer units).

Plus those units have a whole mess of personnel attached. GDW sort of missed out on some interesting possibilities by streamlining their presentation of higher headquarters elements as either nothing but a headquarters or at best a vague mention in the published orders of battle.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah I know that Armies and Corps HQ have several Brigades, Battalions, and Companies assigned. In many cases, the Corps HQ and Armies HQ with these units are as large or much larger than a cookie cutter Armor/Mechanized Division depending on the mission of the Corps or Army.

Take Fort Bragg as example, they Special Operation Army Command, the 82nd Airborne Division, and the XVIII Airborne Corps. In theory the 82nd Airborne Division is integrated unit on base. Yet, with the XVIII Airborne Corps there are several Brigade of various mean (Aviation, Artillery, ADA, MP, Support, Engineer, and others) some are attached to the Corps directly (deploy with the Corps), or indirectly (they can deploy independent of the Corps such as some of the MP and Engineer Brigades). In some cases the Support units assigned to the Corps would deployed in direct support of the 82nd or other units of the Corps too. Then there was the Special Operation Command that again had training course unit and there were couple Special Operations Groups assigned to the post too.

I am sure Fort Hood and Fort Lewis would be a couple bases that were over populated with support for the Corps at those bases, which explains why it was easier on paper for the Divisions at those bases to have round-out units or in the case of 2nd Armor Division while assigned to Fort Hood with the 1st Cavalry to have one Brigade Forward Deployment to Germany to make 'room' for other units. After Desert Shield/Storm there was large reorganization and with base closure many of these bases that were consider too small, suddenly had to find room for other units. It also helped that in the process several other units were deactivated and things were reorganized in the process too.

[Dog 6]

My 1st ARMY as of 6/1/2003


1ST ARMY HQ: 1800 men Atlanta

3rd Infantry Regiment: 600 men , 37 M-2A2, 4 IPM1 , 4 105 mm How. D.C.

1st Aviation Brigade: 3000 men 28 UH-1, 2 CH-54, 8 UH-60 , 16 OH-58, 7 AH-1 , 11 CH-47, 4 OH 6 Units can be found all over the East cost




12th Corp HQ: 1900 men 1 M-60A3 Trenton

12th Engineer Brigade : 1200 men 3 M-728 CEV Fort Dix

12th supply Brigade : 3800 men Trenton units can be found all over 12th Corp A.O.

12th Transportation Brigade: 3000 men, 600 Trucks , 190 Tankers units can be found all over 12th Corp A.O.

12th Artillery Brigade: 2600 men, 43 105 mm How. 14 155 mm How.
units can be found all over 12th Corp A.O. HQ 200 men in Trenton

43rd MP Brigade: 2000 men 22 M-113, 8 105 mm How, 21 Peacekeeper, 19 LAV 150 Massachusetts

78th Reserve Infantry Division: 4200 men, 6 M-48A5's, 15 M-113's, 22 105 mm How. Fort Dix

42nd Mechanized Division : 6000 men, 81 M-60A4 , 145 M-113, 31 M-109 New York

190th Mechanized Brigade: 3000 men 33 M-60A3, 129 M-113 , 17 M-109 , 22 M901 Maine

2nd provisional Marine Regiment : 900 men Toms River

13th Corps HQ : 2900 men 1 IPM-1 Atlanta

13th Engineer Brigade : 4000 men 1 M-728 CEV
units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

13th supply Brigade: 5000 men Atlanta

13th Transportation Brigade: 4200 men 900 Trucks , 290 Tankers
units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

13th MP Brigade: 3900 men 9 Peacekeeper, 31 M-706, 42 M750 units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O. HQ 300 men in Atlanta

13th Artillery Brigade: 3100 men 31 105 mm How, 41 155mm How
units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

108th Reserve Infantry Division: 5500 men, 18 M-48A5, 33 M-113, 44 105 mm How HQ Savannah units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

18th Motorized Infantry Division: 9000 men, 152 M-8, 337 LAV 25, 57 155 mm How, 4 LARS Florida

198th Mechanized Brigade: 3500 men 190 APC/IFV , 49 tanks (M-48A5/ M-60A3/4/5, M-1A1/2) 21 M-109, 8 M901 Fort Benning

5th provisional Marine Regiment :1700 men , 3 M-60A1 Savannah


enjoy :D

I need to update this with Airforce and navy units

positive thoughts are welcome.