Currency

[kalos72]

So I have been thinking bout the type of currency my players are trying to design and thought you guys might have some feedback. :)

In a T2K world, assuming the area has some central government/authority, how would you handle a currency?

You could just use food but thats a very primitive or starter currency I think. Krakow just uses paper notes that hold a certain value. But what if people started to forge those notes? Happens all the time in history...

Could mint metal coins or clay coins with your "seal" on them but the same thing could happen with forgeries.

How does your campaigns major settlement handle a currency?

[pmulcahy11b]

Something you want to consider with coins (aside from the counterfeiting issue) is ridged edges, like on most world coins these days. This prevents clipping some of the metal off of the coins to re-sell the clipped metal (believe it of not, that used to be a problem until about the late 1800s).

I think, however, that counterfeiting will be rampant in the first few years after currency is re-introduced, and there may be little anyone can do about it. It was a problem in Colonial America and post-Revolution US, complicated by each state making its own currency. One way around it might be to use still-existing prewar currency, and assign whatever value the local government decides to assign to it. Maybe put some sort of mark on it to tell where it was issued. (Many countries have stocks of currency stored up, including the US, who has stocks of currency stored in various places in the world).

Penalties for forgery could be made quite severe (i.e., long stretches of hard labor, reduced rations, or even death).

[copeab]

For currency, you need to use something that has no real value outside of being used as currency. While they may be fine for barter, gasoline, food and ammo make for poor currencies. For the most part, gold and silver are pretty worthless, so they make good currency.

Paper currency is probably too easy to forge; metal coins are somewhat more suitable since a 100 gram gold coin is still a 100 gram gold coin, no matter who made it. OTOH, metal tends to stay radioactive a long time ...

[simonmark6]

I'm trying to say this in a way that doesn't sound flippant, but what about something like POGs or bottle caps?

What I mean is something finite produced pre-war that would be nearly impossible to replicate after the war. What sort of goods might be suitable, if any?

Another possibility is that the government just prints its own money and doesn't worry too much about forgeries as anyone with the resources to forge money is likely to be very rare.

What do you think the economy would be based on? I'd suggest linking it to calories, all money is redeemable at government establishments for a requisite amount of food (this is essentially what Krakow does).

[kalos72]

If we are going printed money, I would say value should be one days meal to start.

I was thinking something like the money would be rotated each week. Each week a different color combination, number sequence or something. And then rotate say 8 different patterns every 2 months or something. Also limit the number of "currency" any one person can use per day/week.

Not sure something like that is reasonable in a T2K world but it would help limit the effect of forgeries.

[simonmark6]

To be honest, the amount of time it would take to co-ordinate that a government would probably just wear the loss to counterfeiting. In the FCoK the currency was changed every few months to stop stockpiling and you could also limit how many were exchanged for food every day.

You would still have to exchange notes for ones of teh new design or you'd be choking free enterprise (you may not see this as a negative), or have a way of swapping surplus currency for some other sort of benefit. Capitalism might suck in some ways, but if a government wants a recovery it's going to have to stimulate the economy in some way.

[kalos72]

FCoK was a starting point for our group talking bout this. I dont think there is another published source of a settlement that goes into that sort of detail.

Kinda OT here but I wanna talk bout that too. Economy.

For awhile to start I think most settlements will focus on just getting the basics down. Food/water/shelter/electricity and the industry that supports it. A currency would be used to project a normalcy to the citizen and give them SOME flexibility in what they "buy" with their hard earned "money".

From a command perspective, capitalism is a weight my guys dont wanna bother with for now. They see the way other settlements work, offering protection for the food/products the locals make on their own and wonder why not just take control over the whole thing and paying the civilians for their effort in food?

Once populations stabilize and their immediate situations become less "survival" and more "rebuilding", then you might see some true semblance of an economy but not anything supported by the 'government'.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm trying to say this in a way that doesn't sound flippant, but what about something like POGs or bottle caps?

Maybe with some sort of special punch shape in it, to stop those who find a bunch of unopened bottles from "making" their own money.

[Raellus]

I'm trying to say this in a way that doesn't sound flippant, but what about something like POGs or bottle caps?


Have you, by chance, ever played Fallout 3?

[kalos72]

Fallout 3 best game EVAH!

[Canadian Army]

Here are couple of Links that I found, dealing with the US Government's Emergency Stockpile of Paper Money.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/mt_pony.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Audio-Visual_Conservation_Center

[Targan]

In my campaign (once it got back to the CONUS) the players were issued MilGov paper scrip as currency, concurrent with gold and silver having a relatively set value and being allowed by MilGov to be used as semi-official currency, so long as it was in ingot form and stamped with its purity and weight (the ingots could be any size and shape and could be smelted by anyone but of course stamped purity and actual purity often varied). I never really came to grips with all the difficulties of that system but hey, when you're running a game like T2K you've already got a million things to worry about as GM to keep things fairly realistic.

[simonmark6]

Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout Tactics and Fallout 3. I'm a total fanboy.

[Targan]

Me too. I played Fallout 3 literally for a year. It is an awesome game.

[kalos72]

Targan - I should probably just do something simple like that. I tend to locked in the details of everything and over think it. :P

Plus if you just know how much money is in circulation, and you see that number increase you know people are counterfeiting and then the 'sting' starts. :)

[Webstral]

In SAMAD, the interim currency is the K, or the kilocalorie. This little number is the invention of a porfessor of economics from the University of Arizona at Tucson. Very early on, the Huachuca command decides that what amounts to a Communist economy, with everything planned by and owned by a small group at the top, is antithetical to the American way of life. This sentiment is widely shared in the Twilight: 2000 world right across the remnants of Western civilization. However, SAMAD is actually in a position to do something about it in 1999.

The K functions much like the Krakow ration chit. The owner can redeem the currency for 1,000 calories of food. While this innovation hardly restores a proper market economy, it does enable small business. One of the main goals of SAMAD after 1999 is getting workers off the land and doing something else. This is hard to do with intensive garden-style agriculture, but increases in efficiency gained as a result of experience during the 1998 and 1999 farming years enable the percentage of the labor force growing, gathering, or hunting food gradually to decrease. Some of the labor goes into cottage industry to produce the variety of conusmer goods SAMAD needs for internal consumption and "foreign" exchange: soap, textiles, beer and liquor, boots and other shoes, cooking implements, and so forth. With internal consumption facilitated by the K, SAMAD's cottage industries are able to grow at a respectable rate, by post-Exchange standards.[1]

Again referring to the pre-Exchange library of technological goodies, SAMAD is able to supply its cottage industries with simple hand-powered and gravity-powered machines of the sort used in many parts of the Third World. Although much progress has yet to be made by 2001, it's clear that SAMAD is producing a wide variety of products needed throughout Arizona and beyond. The basis for a long-range trading economy is reappearing by April 2001.

Webstral


[1] Anyone who has tried bathing out of a big coffee tin with a gallon of water knows how valuable a coarse washcloth can be. Once SAMAD is able to lay hands on some cotton, the manufacture of good-quality washcloths becomes a cash cow, so to speak. Also, the need for cotton for all textile purposes helps drive the desire to reclaim the cotton-growing fields of southern Arizona.

[kalos72]

Those links gave me an idea...

What if we just used US dollars or coins with some sort of marking on them to show the ones the settlement used versus per-war circulation ones? The current dollars would be more difficult to forge then any newly printed currency and its limited supply.

How many people after 2-3 years of being in survival mode kept their dollar bills? :)

[Dog 6]

Those links gave me an idea...

What if we just used US dollars or coins with some sort of marking on them to show the ones the settlement used versus per-war circulation ones? The current dollars would be more difficult to forge then any newly printed currency and its limited supply.

How many people after 2-3 years of being in survival mode kept their dollar bills? :)

coins 4sure, bills idk.

[Legbreaker]

My guess is that there'd be a lot of cash pretty much just laying about waiting for somebody to pick up. Sure it might be in shop cash registers, bank vaults, wallets & purses of the dead, but my guess is that if prewar currency was made legal there'd be a big problem with looters for the local authorities to deal with (as if they don't already though).

On the other hand, who's to say cash lost it's status as legal tender? Became near worthless, yes, but lost it's legal status? It's also only been what, 2-3 years since the nukes, so there'd still probably be a lot of emotional attachment to it too.

[Abbott Shaull]

There are several areas that have currency of some type or other. The main problem is that most of this stuff is worthless outside of the general area where the currency is printed and in many cases is begrudging used because others in the area are using. Anyone doing trade out of the area, wouldn't want to be trade in the currency....

[simonmark6]

For awhile to start I think most settlements will focus on just getting the basics down. Food/water/shelter/electricity and the industry that supports it. A currency would be used to project a normalcy to the citizen and give them SOME flexibility in what they "buy" with their hard earned "money".

From a command perspective, capitalism is a weight my guys dont wanna bother with for now. They see the way other settlements work, offering protection for the food/products the locals make on their own and wonder why not just take control over the whole thing and paying the civilians for their effort in food?

Once populations stabilize and their immediate situations become less "survival" and more "rebuilding", then you might see some true semblance of an economy but not anything supported by the 'government'.

From my reading of this, your PCs are talking about taking over a community, by military force if necessary, and then making the community work for them and turn over all of their production in return for "pay". In effect they are replacing the government with a military junta.

If this is the case, forgeries are the least of your worries. The PCs are going to have more issues with dealing with what effectively becomes a slave population such as sabotage, low production and pilfering if you're lucky and out right insurgency if they aren't.

Such a set up might work in the very early days when having the PCs is the difference between life and death, but very soon after that the local poulation would probably start to want more independence. "Ban the 100% tax" and "No taxation without representation" could well be their rallying cry.

Again, interesting times for your PCs.

[kalos72]

Thats something we have spoken about a few times actually Simon...

To us, until things settles down some our thinking was it would be better to control all aspects of production to ensure things go smoothly.

Its has always baffled me why a unit would simply trust a population to 'give' it enough food to survive when you can simply take over the production and ensure that happens.

Now they aren't all "use the slaves to clear that radiation rubble" or what ever but they think times are so tough that its better to have tighter control over the population. IE - martial law

[simonmark6]

To he PCs of course it makes perfect sense. Of course as a GM somebody needs to think about how the population would react to this.

At the very beginning, they will probably be too concerned about living day to day to worry about such things although you will always get some people whose principles outweigh their survival instincts. Almost as soon as the basics become stable however they'll be looking for more.

Even the majority of the large scale despots in the TK2 canon have a semblance of representation for the people whether it's the Krakow council or the Barons of the Margravate of Silesia. Even then there is an opposition that causes the regimen serious trouble with that trouble rising proportionately with the amount the rulers exert control over the population.

Now, if your PCs are relatively benign and share and share alike as well as possibly having a method of people giving their views or airing issues they think are unfair, they may get away with it for a long time. Maybe even long enough to achieve their goals. In teh long run however, people will want to keep the majority of the fruits of their labour in order to have control over their own lives. A totalitarian government no matter how benign is still a totalitarian government.

I think that one of the reasons why some large military units do 'trust' populations to give them food in return for protection is that they are reluctant to use martial law to sieze all assets and seek total control over the populace in case it leads to an insurgency.

It's your game however and you are more than welcome to run the game in any way you feel realistic, in the end the game's all about having fun. I know you don't need to have my permission to do that but I hope you do have fun anyway, especially as you sound as if you have an inventive group.

[kalos72]

Good post Simon! :)

I am sure that once my campaign settles down, food becomes more regular and the ever looming threat of starvation seems a distant memory, this will need to be addressed.

One idea they had was something I posted a while ago. A manor system, where select people are 'given' land and tasked to manage it. Keeping a certain percentage while giving the majority to the 'government'. More like feudalism really.

But at some point the system will need to mature to meet the ever improving soceity the PC's have created, if it goes according to plan. /wink

[simonmark6]

Having their own land would surely help once the inital crisis was over. You'd find that over a period of time, more people would want to keep more of their produce with less feudal oversight. This would be years if not decades so isn't a major issue unless you skip lots of time in the campaign.

I know it took many centuries historically but most people would want a quicker transition. Of course, many major war leaders often become politicians in later life.

But then TK2 stops being fun and becomes "P&P" (Politicians and PR Flaks), not my idea of a good game.

[SirBlase]

Hi all,
For what it's worth, here's my view on currency.
We've played quite a few campaigns in Poland and most of the time barter was very important, especially if you're not in any sort of regular army.
All sides of the conflict used some sort of "official currency", be it Soviet Rubel, US Dollar, British Pound, German Mark or Polish Zloty, but they were quite useless outside your zone of control. The same goes for coupons issued for meals, petrol etc.
Of course almost all countries had coins, but using money has more of a sentimental value than actual worth. The only coins in use in our games were gold and silver Rubels, Dollars, etc. Basically, precious metals keep their value, mostly because of their rarity.
But, as I said earlier, the main way of trading was barter. First of all, a clip of 5,56mm ammo is worth pretty much the same to everybody. It also gave some players or NPCs opportunity to gat some extremely good deals (at least that's what they thought then), because a can of spam is worth much more to a hungry man than a case of ammo he doesn't have a gun for.
And since most of our games were out of the regular armies, the PCs had to travel between different cantonments and trade whatever they had to spare for anything they might need.
Hope this helps,
Blase

[Webstral]

The change in the outlook of civilians on rights and liberties by 2000 should be nothing short of catastrophic. Hunger--real hunger--tends to put ideas about rights on the back burner unless and until the "government" is perceived to be tied up with the problem. A warlord who puts food on the plates of the civilians can get away with a lot. A warlord who puts an end to lawlessness or banditry can get away with a lot. Conversely, a government descended from a legitimate pre-war institution may find itself overthrown by a strong man if it fails to feed and protect its people.

One of the issues I've been trying to come to grips with for years is how the American military men cope with running what amounts to a centralized Communist-style economy and government. In SAMAD, refugees are put on a parcel of land and told to farm. Truculence equals hunger. In 1997 and 1998, there is no other way for things to run. Generally, folks are glad to be alive and have some prospect for staying that way. However, as the food situation comes under control in SAMAD, the economy and politics are going to rear their ugly heads.

MilGov is in the same fix. Unless I miss my interpretation badly, the government is calling the shots in terms of economics, food distribution, etc. The Joint Chiefs, who led the fight against Communism, are now running a totalitarian regime. They allow local elections, but the real power is in the hands of folks no one elected. If there weren't already plenty to lose sleep over, this would keep the Joint Chiefs up at night.

Webstral

[kalos72]

I agree Web, at some point people will want more.

I am trying to work out a "Lord of the Manor" sorta system where the local government 'lease' land to people, like a feudal system.

Perhaps as time passes, populations settle and the collection of taxes become an option, we can start to "sell" the land to the workers. Giving them ownership and control over their own lively hood.

Still I think there will be laws and guidelines that will need to stay in place, for the continued success of the area. I doubt, for a decade or two perhaps, will full individual freedoms be restored.

[simonmark6]

Given the extent of the disaster that timeline doesn't seem unreasonable, after all, Britain was still rationing key foods nearly ten years after the end of WW2. As long as people saw things getting better and their safety and rights improving incrementally you probably get a high level of co-operation. The fact that some of it would depend on the individual Lord of the manor gives the GM the chance to create an interesting tapestry of conditions for the party to play in.

[Canadian Army]

I think there could be two types of currency in Twilight 2000.

First would be Bullion Coins, nine nations mint Gold, Platinum, and Silver Bullion Coins; and a large number would be in circulation (How many I do not know, I could not find a number).

Second would be Junk Sliver. Junk silver is an informal term used in the United States, United Kingdom, Canada and Australia for any silver coin which is in fair condition and has no numismatic or collectible value above the bullion value of the silver it contains. The word "junk" refers only to the value of the coins as collectibles and not to the actual condition of the coins; junk silver is not necessarily scrap silver. In Twilight 2000 Junk Silver coins would be a currency for several reasons:

Low Premiums:
Coins were purchased for little or no premium over the spot price of silver, particularly during years leading up the war.

Legal Tender:
Coins remain legal tender and maintain their face value regardless of the price of silver.

Recognition:
Coins are familiar and less likely to have their value disputed than silver rounds or bars.

Divisibility:
Coins can be easily spent or traded in small amounts. In contrast, minted silver bullion is rarely smaller than a troy ounce, while minted gold bullion (and other precious metals) is highly valued in even small amounts, like the American Gold Eagle coins.

Viable Alternative:
In the aftermath of the nuclear attacks, in which traditional currency collapsed, junk silver coins provided a viable temporarily alternative, while the fiat currency (paper money), which was not backed by precious metals or other commodities, emerged with no inherent value and was subject to extreme inflation, even hyperinflation.


I have included a list of available Junk Sliver and Bullion Coins.

[helbent4]

MilGov is in the same fix. Unless I miss my interpretation badly, the government is calling the shots in terms of economics, food distribution, etc. The Joint Chiefs, who led the fight against Communism, are now running a totalitarian regime. They allow local elections, but the real power is in the hands of folks no one elected. If there weren't already plenty to lose sleep over, this would keep the Joint Chiefs up at night.



"You may do everything with bayonets, except sit on them." - Lord Tallyrand, Foreign Minister to Napoleon.

While withholding food or supplies is one way to compel compliance (not to mention using force), it would also generates serious unrest. While one would think that a starving population would be compliant and unrest would be the last thing on their minds, it's really quite common, perhaps because they feel they have little or nothing to lose and no way to meaningfully redress the situation through peaceful means. Especially for Western Europeans and North Americans, who have a living memory of functioning liberal democracy and faced with a de facto or de jure military or civilian despotic regime. I would imagine that the CIA would have a field day destabilising the US military regime since the coup. It's practically their pre-war bread and butter!

Getting back to a currency, obviously barter is a major source of wealth transfer but it has some obvious problems. If you and the other party have what each other wants in the right amounts then it's simple; if you don't, then unless you walk away it gets complicated. You might be forced to make an unadvantageous trade, be stuck with possibly bulky goods you may or may not be able to unload later which you have to store in the mean time, etc.

While it seems counter-intuitive, I think that luxury goods like tobacco would therefore still be produced and traded due to a consistently high value, general portability and ease of storage (at least for small amounts). As well, because drug laws would be impossible to enforce in most areas, marijuana would be grown and traded.

As a rough estimate, I peg tobacco at something like $200/carton, with loose tobacco going at $140/200 grams in gold or equivalent trade. (This is basically a 20x mark-up from pre-war manufacturing prices before taxes/duties in British Columbia of roughly CAD$10.00/carton and $7.00/200 grams for fine-cut tobacco.) Pricing for pot is a little dicier, but I peg that at 5x-10x pre-war value as it's easier to grow than tobacco, so roughly CAD$50/gram (depending on quality, possible law enforcement, the value could be as high as $250/gram etc.) or $175 for an eighth.

Again, I don't see pot/tobacco as being an "official" currency for any faction but where there is no paper or gold, it would be a very useful adjunct for the barter economy. Plus, now players can actually specify something other than gold for their leftover starting allocation! (For those wussy games that start PCs with more than the clothes on their back and a knife in their teeth.)

Tony

[natehale1971]

I used the Military Script as an example of what kind of currency would be made by what ever kind of 'government' was in control. A type of plastic POGs are being used right now by the post and base exchanges in the US Armed Forces.

Military Script is Color-coded and can be of various sizes and even shapes to help keep from having counter-fitters have an easy time with making copies of the currency.

I've been looking for decent images of military script to make props for the game if i ever get to play it again.

[Dog 6]

I used the Military Script as an example of what kind of currency would be made by what ever kind of 'government' was in control. A type of plastic POGs are being used right now by the post and base exchanges in the US Armed Forces.

Military Script is Color-coded and can be of various sizes and even shapes to help keep from having counter-fitters have an easy time with making copies of the currency.

I've been looking for decent images of military script to make props for the game if i ever get to play it again.

I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Payment_Certificate
google images has a ton of good pics you could use.

[pmulcahy11b]

It would be a pain in the butt for the parties involved, but varying the size and/or shape and/or color of currency from time to time without warning might help with counterfeiting.

[helbent4]

Of all places, Cracked.com has an article on this subject:

"7 Bizarre Things (and 1 Bodily Fluid) People Use As Currency"

http://www.cracked.com/article_16709_7-bizarre-things-and-1-bodily-fluid-people-use-as-money.html?wa_user1=3&wa_user2=Weird+World&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=flashback

Of interest is how bottle caps are used as currency in Cameroon, and how Canadian Tire money is used as a currency across Canada and occasionally the northern USA. One town in Columbia uses cocaine as money, and I believe that drugs will also be used for trading due to its value in many areas of North America and Europe. (For that matter I believe that the drug trade will be alive and well for many reasons.)

During the Great Depression some communities issued their own locally-backed scrip, and of course before then individual banks and companies issued scrip, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip

Bottle caps, while silly-seeming, have the advantage of being relatively rare (now) and not that easy to duplicate. A community might come across a store of them (seizing a local collection or stockpile) and issue them as a local scrip backed by some kind of guarantee. In Morrow Project, a team in one game issued a community scrip backed by Project resources (the contents of a local supply base and the team caches).

Tony

[natehale1971]

It would be a pain in the butt for the parties involved, but varying the size and/or shape and/or color of currency from time to time without warning might help with counterfeiting.

That's exactly what they did during Vietnam... C-Day, they'd pop the exchange on the soldiers so suddenly they didn't know it was coming.

C-days in Vietnam were always classified, never pre-announced. On C-day, soldiers would be restricted to base, preventing GIs from helping Vietnamese civilians--especially local bars, brothels, bar girls and other black market people--from converting old MPC to the newer style MPC. Since Vietnamese were not allowed to convert and frequently lost savings by holding old worthless MPC. Angry over their MPC loss, in retaliation, the nearest U.S. base was often rocketed or mortared the next night.

And it would fit great... especially if they find signs of counterfeiting going on, they'd launch a C-Day much faster. But knowing the military they'd have at least six series of MPC ready to go, just waiting to print the bloody things.

[natehale1971]

I've done a little checking, and with the economic downturn here in the US... there have been communities printing up their own localized scrip (they call coupons) that has been used to stimulate the local economy (used for local exchanges only).

In the T2k world I can see things like this going into effect for those out of the way communities that are able to become moderately self-sufficient. Especially if they are able to work out a form of trade of valuable materials (like gold or other trade goods, like whiskey or tobacco) that can be used with trade with outsiders. Thus the return of local 'Bank Notes' that are directly backed by Gold, Silver, Platinum and jewels...

This gives me an idea for something that would be in Morrow Project team caches.. Project Resource Vouchers that would be backed up with various valuables (medicines, food, gold, silver, whiskey, ect). This would go along way to reestablishing a economy not based directly on bartered trade.

[atiff]

A similar idea to 'community coupons' is the idea of (monetary) 'social credit'. You could do the 'community coupon' idea with no coupons, just with ledgers holding records of exchange. Gives a reason not to boot all the accountants out of your community, too :)

[Canadian Army]

Canadian Tire money is used as a currency across Canada and occasionally the northern USA.

I known people who accept for services and I know stores; other than Canadian Tire, who accept it as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tire_money#Facts_and_Figures

http://i61.servimg.com/u/f61/11/91/03/51/canadi10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=139&u=11910351)

Thank You Sandy McTire

[natehale1971]

Sounds good. :)

There is plenty of examples of what could be used for currency. one of the guys i use to game with always joked about us coming across a community that actually used monopoly money (especially since one of the PCs carried his prized possession... a vintage Monopoly game, that the PCs played during 'down times' when we were not RPing their actions) as their currency.

[helbent4]

I known people who accept for services and I know stores; other than Canadian Tire, who accept it as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tire_money#Facts_and_Figures
[/url]

Thank You Sandy McTire

CA,

Not just Canadian businesses. Some American bars across the line will accept Canadian Tire money at par. This is more of a promotional situation, as these or other bars will also accept Canadian money at par (not such a big deal now, of course).

Tony

[natehale1971]

This actually gives me an idea... Does anyone remember about Company Towns (such as with Mining towns) that inspired the song "Sixteen Tons" that deal with 'I owe my Soul to the Company Store'?

Could something similar to this work in the T2K universe? Not with just a single company, but with all of the stores in a single company. The creation of a currency based on the number of hours you work (or will work). These could be filled out like Checks, that the holder could easily 'cash' by getting the person who filled it out to do said number of hours of work at a community farm, or other endeavor that the community (or private) enterprise is carrying out.

Any idea what we could call something like this form of currency?

[pmulcahy11b]

Any idea what we could call something like this form of currency?

Credits.

[Canadian Army]

The Ithaca HOUR is a local currency used in Ithaca, New York and is the oldest and largest local currency system in the United States that is still operating. One Ithaca HOUR is valued at US$10 and is generally recommended to be used as payment for one hour's work, although the rate is negotiable. HOURS are printed on high-quality paper and use faint graphics that would be difficult to reproduce, and each bill is stamped with a serial number, in order to discourage counterfeiting. More can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Hours#Origin

[pmulcahy11b]

Doesn't the Constitution reserve the right to print currency for the federal government?

[natehale1971]

No... that's a major misconception.. Congress has the power to mint coins. The Federal Reserve isn't actually part of the Federal Government. Go figure.

[helbent4]

Any idea what we could call something like this form of currency?

Nate,

As recently posted, this currency is called "scrip", and it has been in periodic use in the USA for a long time, including the Great Depression. I'll repost the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip

Company scrip:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip

Tony

[Raellus]

Barter seems to be the default form of commerce in every T2KU I've ever set virtual foot in. Although realistic, it can feel a bit cliché. Aside from barter, gold is most often mentioned in the published materials as a medium of exchange in the T2KU. But how many common people would have access to more than a couple of ounces of gold? This would go quickly in the post-collapse economy. The closest thing to modern currency that I can find is the ration chits mentioned in the Free City of Krakow. It's printed by the city government and used as payment for laborers in the city's service. It's also accepted as payment by many local merchants.

I'm not an economists, and I find most aspects of monetary theory quite baffling. I've heard modern currency described as a "globally accepted, mutually agreed-upon hallucination" and it's hard to argue with that. In other words, money only has value because we all agree that it does. This was brought home to me a few years ago while I was playing Fallout 3, in which the denizens of the game universe use bottle caps as money. There's no explanation given in the game- not that I came across, anyway- as to why people attach any sort of value to said caps, but, in the game world, they're universally accepted as a medium of exchange.

Feudal Japan is a periodic interest of mine. In the original Shogun: Total War computer game, one's clan measures its annual income in Koku, a unit representing the amount of rice that can feed one person per year. A system like this would make sense in many parts of the T2KU, where food is an incredibly sought-after commodity. I'm not sure how it would translate into a widely used currency system, though. Is this the "food standard" as the "gold standard"?

In the T2KU, there aren't many central governments with the power and resources to issue and regulate paper money. Would forms of currency only work on a very local level? Could one exchange Krakow ration chits for paper currency issued by the Lublin government and vice-versa? Would different polities accept others' money? Without central banks, who would determine the exchange rates?

I feel really ignorant- I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this idea. I'm hoping that a few of you understand this better than me and can explain it well enough to help me get there.

How do you see currency making a comeback in T2K? Has anyone here put any thought/work into this? If so, I'd love to look at what you've come up with.

[SionEwig]

Yes, I think that "currency" in some form not too dissimilar to what we have now would make a come back. Maybe not extremely fast, but it would make a come back. Probably at first more like the Krakow ration chits, where it is backed by some form of food. I remember some PA short story that one state level sucessor government had "corn bucks" which represented some amount of corn (I'll try and find the title). Other things that the temporary currency could be backed by might include ammunition, salt, equipment, or other commodities. Wasn't there something like that in one of the episodes of Jericho? There was something like this (local chits for various things) in a PA book titled Among Madmen if my memory is serving me correctly. Later the chits/credits/whatever it's called might be backed or represent an amount of labor. But most of these currencys would need to be backed by something. Only later would fiat currency make a come back and only once people had a trust of the issuer.

Yes, I think that such backed local currencys would be accepted, after a while, in other places, probably at a discount and only of course from places that had earned a reputation for honoring their currency.

Just a few things on gold as currency. The majority of the gold "currency" would probably be in the form of jewelry. That's how most people encounter (and own) gold. I think that a lot of businesses would have scales, and probably use grams as the unit of measure. The jewelry could evn be broken or damaged, but would generally need to have the proof mark still visible. The actual coins and ingots would probably be well accepted and more valuable, but also more rare.

Also, silver would be much more common for use as currency than gold. Lots more folks have some, maybe a lot of sterling (.925) jewelry, and more than a fair number have at least a few silver coins around (at least in the US). For that matter, you can still come across silver coins in change from stores and banks. I usually come across around 4 coins a year in loose change, and when I go seriously looking for them from banks will find 10 to 20 (40%) half dollars a year.

[Targan]

Ammunition was used extensively as currency in my last T2K campaign, at least by the PCs. They'd trade calibers they little or no use for to obtain either ammo they could use, or other goods such as decent quality food.

This wasn't quite as standardised as in Metro 2033, mind, but at least in areas where ammunition was still to be had, I can see it making a very useful "currency" of sorts.

[kato13]

Currency will have to develop. I don't know the rate or exactly how it would be standardized, but trade would demand portable currency.

Perhaps every local currency will be valued in relation to the French Franc.

The French would certainly still have paper currency.

A franc could have half its value in the areas just east of the Dead Zone and perhaps a similar amount in Krakow. The value elsewhere would depend on how easy it is to reach the French borders or French territories.

[Silent Hunter UK]

But how many common people would have access to more than a couple of ounces of gold?

Diamonds would also likely be a form of currency.

[SionEwig]

Diamonds would also likely be a form of currency.

Other gemstones also. The only problem would be knowing what stones are "real" and which are fake.

[Raellus]

Agreed on diamonds and gemstones. We're not looking at a very high-volume in circulation, though, so although they would be widely-accepted, they wouldn't be widely/frequently used on a day-to-day basis.

Ammunition might work but not everyone would want ammunition. It's essentially a barter item, which relies on the double coincidence of wants, where both parties want/need the item that the other is offering for trade. In the T2KU, ammo would have value, but not to everybody. Although folks with weapons or who deal regularly with such folks might value ammo as currency, others who don't likely would not. Currency is a universally accepted medium of exchange.

The Franc is an interesting idea. I think it would see fairly widespread use in regions bordering France (or French colonies) but I don't see it being used much beyond that. Poland, for example, is too far away from the issuer/guarantor/regulator. Maybe after a few years, if France does indeed become the major power in Europe but not really until.

I don't know much about Wampum, but shell beads were used as a kind of fiat currency by Native Americans and Dutch traders in the New Holland area in early colonial times. There was even an exchange rate between Wampum and Dutch coinage. What could be the Wampum of the Twilight world?

[kato13]

France wants to be a major power.

I can see them sending Agents/Ambassadors to regions of stability (like Krakow) and trying to facilitate regular trade with those regions. Trading local script for francs would increase France influence.

One of the reasons the US is a major economic power is that most countries currently use the US dollar for transactions. (Though BRIC is trying to change that)

[Raellus]

I can see them sending Agents/Ambassadors to regions of stability (like Krakow) and trying to facilitate regular trade with those regions. Trading local script for francs would increase France influence.


I can definitely see this happening in the long run, but, IMO, this probably wouldn't occur for at least a couple of years after 2000. There's just too much chaotic and/or disputed territory between France and Krakow for routine trade to be an option. Some serious regional stabilization would be required before long-distance trade could safely/reliably take place. In the meantime, would the Franc have value in, for example, Krakow? I can see savvy, long-sighted individuals there wanting to accumulate Francs as a long-term investment, but would most common people eking out a meager living in the Krakow food-for-labor economy attach much, if any, value to the currency of a far-away polity with which there is infrequent (at best) contact? I don't think so. In the case of Krakow, I'm not sure what the city state would be able to offer in return.

[kato13]

Distance is a key factor.

Since I happen to have all the Units databased the closest French unit to Krakow is the 6th Armored Division which is 831km (516 miles) away from Krakow in Worms Germany.

The Swiss border is 779.5 Km (484 miles) from Krakow

These are pretty significant distances, but T2k has merchant convoys everywhere so I can certainly see Francs moving around.

Perhaps outside of France the Franc loses 33% of its value immediately. (You have to have access to the border).

Then maybe it loses 33% of its remaining value per 3 days travel distance (120 miles??) to someone willing to trade.

This is where I see France really trying to establish some type of money trading in settled areas. If you have multiple points where someone can feel confident of a good trade the value of the Franc shoots up over large swaths of territory.

I know it does not explain trade fully in 2000, but maybe the seeds are being established during that time.

[simonmark6]

I would still make a case for gold and silver.

They have been recognised as having value for thousands of years and there is still enough in circulation to mean that people would have some when the world went into the crapper. It's relatively easy to discover if it is real or not and very easy to transport.

Much will depend on what value is attached to it although the same holds doubly for paper money. If you tag an ounce of silver at one day's food, an ounce of gold is usually valued at 60 times higher so a family with only a couple of ounces of gold would still be able to buy 120 days of food with it.

Humans need some sort of option other than barter if we are going to trade effectively and gold and silver seem to fit the bill better than some existing currency. Currencies only hold value because a government backs it. If you are in Krakow during 2000, a franc is just paper because it is next to impossible to see how France could back up the promissory note in any effective way. Gold and silver on the other hand are tangible and have a perceived intrinsic value.

True, a starving hunter is unlikely to give up his gun for whatever amount of bullion you offer him, but neither is h going to sell it for a fistful of francs. A merchant or farmer on the other hand seems to me to be more likely to trade goods of bullion than a paper note from a country over a thousand miles and three hostile armies away.

I don't see a problem with using gold and silver as a fairly universal currency until enough places get organised enough to be trusted as currencies in other areas.

[kato13]

Found a prior thread with some food for thought

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2450&highlight=currency

It covers military and local scripts, Web's use of kilocalories, and bullion and junk silver.

[Raellus]

Nice. I did a forum and thread map/archive search for currency but missed this. Merge completed.

I don't think there's no case for gold, I just think that by 2000, most average citizens will have spent most of their gold (i.e. jewelry, family silver service, etc.) on basic necessities like food, shelter, protection, etc. Therefore, dedicated merchants might have accumulated quantities of gold and silver to do business with, but your average citizen will still have very little, if any. As a result, something else is needed for use as currency. That's my reasoning, at least. My question is what will be used?

[simonmark6]

In the case of ordinary civilians, I'd assume that they are still relying on barter. Most will be either growing their own food and trading surplus for whatever they can't grow or make or being paid in food and goods for their labour.
If they have a surplus they can't trade for something they need, they'll have to trade for something durable of value in the hope they can use it to buy something they need later. This might be ammunition, tools or whatever but they may just have to settle for a knock down price in gold and silver from the local merchant.
I don't see anyone recognising a currency that isn't backed locally by food, fuel or something else tangible. This is how the chit works in Krakow and I don't see it being that successful. Most people will work for food in hand rather than chits because the chit needs you to trust that the government actually has the food to redeem the vouchers. I can see inflation and deflation in the chit being so rampant and trade dependent that it wouldn't be trusted much.
It depends what you mean by trade I suppose.
If you mean day to day survival by civilians: just like most of history, it will be by barter of goods and services, even today that happens a lot although we are a lot more cash dependent. Most civilians won't be popping down to local shops to trade their francs, chits or bottle caps for goods, they'll either be redeeming them for food before a bad harvest cuts the dole or working food and goods in hand rather than relying on a shaky government.
Larger scale trade between merchants or richer people could still rely on gold and silver.
In many ways any government backed currency in early TK2 is effectively an additional tax as it will cost to exchange into whatever scrip is legal in the country. Like many taxes in low information environments, people will be avoiding them like the plague.

[swaghauler]

Samples of things actually used as currency (or investment stock) in our own real world before the advent of paper currency. The Time frames are from a 25 year old college Economics book I just happened to still have on my shelf

Ammunition (Africa 19th & 20th century)
Coins, usually of precious metals (world wide, from Biblical Times)
Corn (Americas, until European Colonization)
Grain (Persia, Africa, Biblical Times)
Gems, both precious & semi-precious (world wide, from Biblical Times)
Livestock (Asia, Africa, Americas, Europe, Biblical times thru the Dark Ages)
Minerals (World Wide, from Biblical Times)
Nails (Europe, Americas, Dark Ages until the 18th Century)
Rice (Asia, until the 20th Century)
Pepper (Persian and Roman Empires)
Salt (Carthaginian/Roman Empires, still used in India until the 20th Century)
Tulip Bulbs (used as one of the first "Futures investments" in Holland, During the Age of Reason)

These were "barter" items whose value was generally established and set (ie. a chicken is worth six nails) by the society in question. This list is by no means totally inclusive and many other examples probably exist. This was just a small list in one book. It is amazing that so many strange objects could persist as a "currency" well into the 20th Century though.

[SionEwig]

Nice. I did a forum and thread map/archive search for currency but missed this. Merge completed.

I don't think there's no case for gold, I just think that by 2000, most average citizens will have spent most of their gold (i.e. jewelry, family silver service, etc.) on basic necessities like food, shelter, protection, etc.

You are probably correct here. Most average citizans would have spent their gold and silver that they originally had.

Therefore, dedicated merchants might have accumulated quantities of gold and silver to do business with, but your average citizen will still have very little, if any. As a result, something else is needed for use as currency. That's my reasoning, at least. My question is what will be used?

Pretty solid reasoning, but I think that you didn't extrapolate from one thing you said - "dedicated merchants might have accumulated quantities of gold and silver to do business with," (and you are correct, they probably would have). But the merchants would also be spending that gold and silver (at least some of it) for more stock. So, merchant buys food for resale from farmer, farmer probably gets some things from merchant that he needs and may very well get some gold and silver also. Farmer has people working for him, probably family, friends, and very possibly some (former) refugees the farmer took in. Farmer is providing food and shelter for everyone (which in T2K is a lot), but these people might need or want some additional items that the farmer can't provide, but that the merchant (or another later merchant) might have, or that the workers could get from someone at the "Trade Market" in town. Now the farmer could hand the workers a busher of whatever is being grown for thm to use to barter, or he could hand them a small amount of silver or gold to buy that extra stuff. So I think that especially by 2000+ if not sooner, gold and silver would be going back out in circulation. At least some. Though there would still be a need for other currency based on some or many of the things mentioned before.

[Toxoplasmaman]

Port Lavaca in Red Star, Lone Star, uses silver backed notes.

Page 17
A barter economy has been replaced by locally printed paper notes backed by silver, which are honored by most merchants within the town or the surrounding camps.

[pmulcahy11b]

Samples of things actually used as currency (or investment stock) in our own real world before the advent of paper currency. The Time frames are from a 25 year old college Economics book I just happened to still have on my shelf



Another big one in the 17th and 18th centuries was molasses, used in rum production. Molasses was a big part of the Triangle Trade system.

[Toxoplasmaman]

And whisky/whiskey in the frontier in the 1780s.

[CraigD6er]

Another area that will affect what players do is what currency is used outside of their own 'home' patch. Every RPG has a standard list of values for everyday items. Verything is valued in gold pieces, or dollars, or credits, but in a post-WWIII or post-apocalypse setting, there could be dozens of different values for the same items. If you want to get into lots of detail, a single currency doesn't cut it. Imagine if your group happily gathers every piece of gold they can, and trades it for what they need, then they travel to another zone. Suddenly their gold is useless and something they'd not even thought about is what the locals want. Different free cities, or regions, may not use gold, or silver, or bottle caps, as currency, or may assign a different value to them. What can be bought for an ounce of gold in Krakow might cost 2 in Ostrava. Five miles further down the road, they might consider gold as just a pretty but fairly useless item, and value everything by weight of tobacco, or litres of 'shine. How the players negotiate values when every few miles someone has a different idea of 'value' can become a major role playing event.

[Gunner]

How the players negotiate values when every few miles someone has a different idea of 'value' can become a major role playing event.

Excellent point, and something I hadn't considered.

I recall in the book "Alas Babylon", honey was used as a 'currency', or at least a valuable trade item and gold and silver jewelry became to be viewed suspiciously because of the possibility they might be radioactive...

[Toxoplasmaman]

Yep. I agree. I have some junk silver stashed away since I'm in the US but if I was in Europe, I'd have gold sovereigns instead.

The Aftermath London adventure has ammo as currency.

Depends on where you are and who you're dealing with.

[swaghauler]

Excellent point, and something I hadn't considered.

I recall in the book "Alas Babylon", honey was used as a 'currency', or at least a valuable trade item and gold and silver jewelry became to be viewed suspiciously because of the possibility they might be radioactive...

Spartan117 was asking about trade and I threw together some rules for him to use with V2/V2.2. You'll have to search for the thread though. I start with an item's rarity and then move your chance to acquire it based on its importance to that individual. You must then roll a test of PERSUASION to buy it at the stated price. My basic Task Difficulty Levels are...

Very Common Item = EASY (Skill X 2) test
Common Items = ROUTINE (1.5 X Skill) test
Uncommon Items = AVERAGE (Skill) test
Scarce Items = DIFFICULT (Skill X 0.5) test
Rare Items = FORMIDABLE (Skill X 0.25) test
Extremely Rare/Experimental = IMPOSSIBLE (0.1 X Skill) task

An Outstanding Success (rolling under RAW Skill without Attribute on an Average task) will get you a 10+1D20% Discount.

An Exceptional Success (rolling under HALF your RAW Skill without Attribute on an Average test) will get you a 50% reduction in price.

Rolling OVER your needed score but under your RAW Skill (the 1-10 number) will cost you 10+1D20% more.

Rolling over your entire Asset (your Skill + Attribute) will double the price.


Also, please note that this is just for buying things or doing "horse trading/bartering" during play. FINDING what you need is a roll on your SCROUNGING skill.
I allow anyone with Economics to add a bonus to their roll.