the last Light Aircraft Carrier

[Blakrider]

back in 89, i happened to see a magaizine cover showing the return of the last light carrier USS Cabot from the spanish navy to New Orleans, where it was to be converted to a museum ship. years later i was in New Orleans but found out she hadn't been turned into a museum ship as the article had promised, but was instead just sitting there tied to the pier rusting out. it was finally towed to Brownsvlle Tx for scapping in about 2002.

i have oftened wondered what could have been her fate if the twilight war had started. would it have stayed a rusting hulk in New Orleans?, or would the navy have pressed her into service? and if they did as what a anti sub carrier (ASW) or a maybe a LPH helicopter landing ship?

i have written up the states for both

so any ides or suggestions

[copeab]

Here's her history and stats in Spanish service, to give an idea of what her capabilities would have been like in the 90's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_aircraft_carrier_Dédalo

My rough guess is that the USN would have used it in a similar role, though a ski-jump might have been installed for improving the Harriers' performance.

[Raellus]

I like the idea of the US government buying her from her private owners in late '96 or early '97, refurbishing and refitting her (if she'd been neglected, this could take upwards of a year) and returned to service as an escort carrier in '98. On the other hand, the USN would be running short of amphibs by then so perhaps that would be her WWIII role. She already carried Harriers in Spahish service so it makes sense that she'd carry them again in USMC service.

I can see her running convoy escort duty carrying a mix of helis for ASW duties and Harriers optimized for air-to-air combat operations.

[Dog 6]

I like the idea of the US government buying her from her private owners in late '96 or early '97, refurbishing and refitting her (if she'd been neglected, this could take upwards of a year) and returned to service as an escort carrier in '98. On the other hand, the USN would be running short of amphibs by then so perhaps that would be her WWIII role. She already carried Harriers in Spahish service so it makes sense that she'd carry them again in USMC service.

I can see her running convoy escort duty carrying a mix of helis for ASW duties and Harriers optimized for air-to-air combat operations.

I 2nd that

[Abbott Shaull]

These type of ships would be used as the basis and I am sure more modern ones were in the works to serve as Escort Carriers of WWIII. The Navy has practically had several of these ships used to carry Marine landing forces, don't recall the name of the vessels, but they too could be press into Escort Carrier type service too.

In the Persian Gulf they could be used as staging asset for the Heli-borne forces. In and around Korea for the same reason and in the North Sea and Baltic Sea in support of the protecting Marine units in those areas.

[kalos72]

My group even has talked about using the old Intrepid in NYC as a landing platform for rotary wing assets. Of course I cant decide if I should give it to them with working engines or not. :P

[Targan]

My group even has talked about using the old Intrepid in NYC as a landing platform for rotary wing assets. Of course I cant decide if I should give it to them with working engines or not. :P

Its a nice idea and I can see why you'd get excited about it but seriously, even the smallest of carriers is a very large vessel. Where the hell do you get enough fuel oil to give it any kind of range? And would it be an efficient use of what fuel oil you could source? I don't want to rain on your parade here but in the late Twilight War I just don't see it happening.

[kalos72]

That was my position, then they countered with "We will move it around with tugs like the Wisla Krolowa, steam driven".

I have my hands full with these guys, all a bit too smart for their britches but at least they keep me on my toes.

[Abbott Shaull]

It would take several tugs to move her effectively without causing damage. Takes a lot horse power to start moving, and even more to stop a beast like that if she dead weight in the water.

Then factor in how many modern tugs have the room to be converted to wood/coal burning since there a limited amount of diesel.... After you convert, all the tugs would have limit power compared to before.

There are always ways around things...

[Blakrider]

this is the information i had been able to dig up in the USS Cabot as was in Spanish service

[Legbreaker]

Only one small problem I see with this:The carrier remained moored in New Orleans until the middle of WWIII. Given a quick refit and re-equipped, she was recommissioned on 11 March 98.
New Orleans and the surrounding area got nuked in late 1997...

I doubt there'd have been much serious interest in the ship early enough to warrant it being moved. The war started less than a year earlier and am doubtful a 60 year old hull would have held much interest - the battle in the North Sea which destroyed "the last major fleet in being" did not occur until June 1997. Therefore, I can't see anyone in authority starting the process of refitting until a week or later (at best!). Then organising workmen who are probably heavily involved on other wartime projects, plus materials, machinery, etc would add at least another few months...
As the ship was stricken from the Spanish Navy in 89 it's been rusting away for quite a while. It's also highly likely that in it's last years in Spain, maintenance was minimal at best - why spend much time, effort and money on a ship which is about to be decommissioned anyway? Therefore, it's unlikely to be a simple case of an oil change and fresh coat of paint.

So, the assessment is good idea, but it just doesn't quite work given the timelines.

[Targan]

+1 to what Leg said.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'll have to agree here too. By 1998, the resources to ready an aircraft carrier would no longer exist or be in very short supply, used elsewhere. The equipment to use and maintain the aircraft would similarly be in short supply. More likely, the ship may have been cut up for scrap, to use the metal plates for other projects.

[copeab]

I'll have to agree here too. By 1998, the resources to ready an aircraft carrier would no longer exist or be in very short supply, used elsewhere. The equipment to use and maintain the aircraft would similarly be in short supply. More likely, the ship may have been cut up for scrap, to use the metal plates for other projects.

Alternatively, it may have been used as a floating town, after being moved some distance from shore.

[kalos72]

Now I LIKE that idea actually...or even as a floating base. :)

[Legbreaker]

Of course as New Orleans got nuked, who'd want to live the glowing metal coffin?

[pmulcahy11b]

Of course as New Orleans got nuked, who'd want to live the glowing metal coffin?

At least you wouldn't have to worry about lighting the place at night...:D

[Blakrider]

well it could have been bought and moved to Mobile to be added to the USS Alabama Museum. missing the nuke and being some what restored.

and if you looking for a possible ship to use as a sea base how about the USS Gage a Haskell class Assault transport.


i also have some of her deck plans

as well as plans for WW2 Era LSTs' LCIs' as well as ther specs. any one interested?:D

[Legbreaker]

and was inactive until her name was struck from the Navy List 1 in 1958 She was transferred the same day to the Maritime Commission Reserve Fleet and was berthed in James River, Va. Till the middle of WWIII
Can anyone else say "rustbucket"?
It'd be lucky to still hold water after 40 odd years sitting idle.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Actually if it's in the reserve fleet it would probably be kept in a decent state, they have a significant maintenance program to ensure the ships can be put back into service. That's not to say that every ship in the reserve fleet would be seaworthy, some of the oldest ones are getting a bit "thin in the hull"
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/dot/ndrf.htm
What the global security writeup does infer though is that the longer a ship has be sitting in the reserve fleet, the greater the likelihood it will be scrapped or sunk (as artificial reefs)

[Canadian Army]

Another thing to point is the cost of reactivation. Following 25 years of service, USS Oriskany was decommissioned on 30 September 1976 and laid up for long-term storage in Bremerton, Washington, where the carrier was maintained as a mobilization asset. Reagan Administration proposals to reactivate Oriskany were rejected by the United States Congress on the basis of the ship's poor material condition and limited air wing. The cost of reactivation was estimated at approximately $520 million for FY 1982 ($1 billion in 2010). This figure would probably more for the USS Cabot, given its age. I think the better solution would be Langley-class Escort Carriers found at Chico's site http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/ship_designs.html.

[Matt W]

Your carrier may not have been available as a Naval Asset - but it could have been very useful as a prison hulk. Lots of room and nobody digs escape tunnels

Where else are you going to "warehouse" the POW population?

[Matt W]

i also have some of her deck plans

as well as plans for WW2 Era LSTs' LCIs' as well as ther specs. any one interested?:D

Definitely interested in the LST stuff

[Legbreaker]

Your carrier may not have been available as a Naval Asset - but it could have been very useful as a prison hulk. Lots of room and nobody digs escape tunnels

Where else are you going to "warehouse" the POW population?

Again, it probably got nuked....
I don't know much about the layout of New Orleans, but my guess is the docks would have been fairly high up on the list of priority targets for the warheads launched against the city.

[Blakrider]

you made some good points legbreaker about the USS Cabot, but I could simply say that an other organisation bought her in 92 and moved her to Mobile, AL and began making repairs and preping her to be a Museum ship next to the USS Alabama. when things started side into that bucket, the navy may just think to here her like Chico did the remaining Essex class Carriers and bring it back into service.

and as to possible cost of reactivating the Attack Transport USS Gage, the haskell class is really nothing more then a WW2 era Victory Frieghter that has been converted to a attack ship. and a large number of them were still part of the reserve fleet in the mid to late 90s.

In the 1997 a survey was done to evaluate the cost of refit and reactivation of the ships to active duty. total cost estimated $2. Million, almost the same cost of building them in the first place, ($2,500,000, but adjusting for inflation her construction coasts would have been a estimated $40 Million. if they had gone ahead it would made the US Military less reliant on forgien shipping. ( of course the politicians stopped it, made to much sence)

[mikeo80]

I know I am treading on thin ground being a "newbee" to the game...

But consider the following...

What IF the nukes were limited to some tactical exchanges?

What if the Minutemen, B-52's and etc. (plus the Russian equivalent) had stayed at high alert, but stayed in the silos/airfields? The Politicians and the Generals determined that the possibility of doomsday was STILL too unacceptable.

As I have read the stories posted here, the attrition of the conventional forces were enormous...

I think that the US Military would look at the older Battleships as a way of introducing MAJOR combat units in 1 - 2 years.

Just my mind wondering down a different road. :D

Mike

[mikeo80]

Just an additional thought....

There is something very satisfying to a gamer as the image of a Battleship firing nine 16" guns..... :p

[Adm.Lee]

I'd think the Navy would have trouble finding experienced chiefs for the older ships. The machinery (not least the guns) were generations old, and the guys who knew how to run them were scarce. Those in the Iowaclass would have to be thinned out to get the older ships running, and parts would be a major headache. With a disrupted supply chain, I can't see the museum ships used for more than accommodation and secure storage.

Lee.

[dragoon500ly]

another thing to consider is the amount of modification that took place on the museum ships to allow easier access...the USS Alabama is a case in point...in order to allow easier access to the 16-inch magazine spaces, a nice large hole was cut through the side of the barbette.

I was also able to take a tour of the engine spaces, and based on what I saw, I'd say at least 12-14 months of heavy repair to get the old turbines back into shape. That is if the yard didn't decide to just yank them out and replace them completely.

[Olefin]

FYI - Using the NUKEMAP and plotting out the detonations that occurred in the 1997 attack on New Orleans and reconciling it with information in United States v. Ex-USS Cabot/Dedalo, 179 F. Supp. 2d 697 (S.D. Tex. 2000)

she was docked at the Press Street Wharf in the Port of New Orleans from about February 4, 1993 to October 13, 1997.

On May 3, 1997, the M/V Tomis Future collided with the Cabot and damaged both the vessel and the Press Street Wharf. The owner of the M/V Tomis Future hired Crescent Towing to position a tugboat alongside the Cabot from May 3rd to May 7th. The tugboat was necessary to prevent the Cabot from breaking away from the wharf.

When the owner of the M/V Tomis Future took Crescent Towing off hire on May 7th, the U.S.S. Cabot Dedalo Museum Foundation, Inc. refused to take action to protect its ship. The United States Coast Guard was therefore forced to take over. The Coast Guard performed repairs to the wharf and hired companies to provide tug assistance to protect the Cabot from breaking away and colliding with another vessel or facility. On October 12, 1997, the Coast Guard paid for the Cabot to be taken to a safer docking facility in Violet, Louisiana. The Coast Guard spent at least $500,868.94 on wharf repairs, tug assistance, and towing the Cabot.

On October 14, 1997 they took her to Port Isabel, TX and that is where she was for the TDM.

So there are three scenarios for where the Cabot was in the Twilight 2000 timeline

a) the navy after taking the losses they took early in 1997 tow to Cabot to where she can be refit to be used as carrier most likely using Harriers and helicopters as her air group - this would have been in progress during the TDM so depending on where the refit happened is what her fate would be - and thus she isnt anywhere near New Orleans when the nuclear strikes occur

b) the navy decides its not worth the effort to bring her back into the fleet after the losses in 1997 and she stays in New Orleans but the collision does not occur - thus she is at the Press Street Wharf for the TDM and untouched by the nukes that hit New Orleans - the closest nuke is the Meraux strike but the outer edges of the destructive area of that strike end about 1.5 kilometers away from her - in other words close but not enough to damage her - however she is going to be sitting in the water as a lot of contaminated debris goes by her on the river

and any attempt to recover her post TDM means having to get her past the debris and effects of two of the nuke strikes and their after effects on the Mississippi River to get her out to sea - so most likely if she is still there for the TDM she is sitting on the dock rusting away

c) the collision occurs and they move her and she is either in Violet, LA or Port Isabel, TX for the TDM - if she is in Violet, LA then the Meraux strike most likely gets her or heavily damages her at the least - on the other hand if she is in Port Isabel then she may have been there for the Mexican invasion - meaning she is still sitting there most likely and anyone who has played Red Star Lone Star knows what is in Port Isabel

so for those who want to have the Cabot in T2K there are actually several possibilities for her - she could have been put back into service with the USN or at least brought to a base where the work could have been started, she could be sitting at the Press Street Wharf still in New Orleans (maybe as the base for a local group of marauders terrorizing the area that the players are sent to deal with), she could be sunken wreck in Violet or she could be sitting at Port Isabel and possibly play a part in Red Star Lone Star as part of the action in Port Isabel

[Olefin]

FYI I have looked at several websites and have found photos of her when she arrived in New Orleans - and what arrived was a useable ship that arrived under her own power and in good condition - she appeared to be well maintained and in good condition upon arrival in 1989 - https://delange.org/CabotR/CabotR.htm

[The Dark]

Actually if it's in the reserve fleet it would probably be kept in a decent state, they have a significant maintenance program to ensure the ships can be put back into service. That's not to say that every ship in the reserve fleet would be seaworthy, some of the oldest ones are getting a bit "thin in the hull"
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/dot/ndrf.htm
What the global security writeup does infer though is that the longer a ship has be sitting in the reserve fleet, the greater the likelihood it will be scrapped or sunk (as artificial reefs)

It depends - the JRRF (and the NRDF in general) has both "retain" and "non-retain" ships, and the latter get just enough work done to keep them from sinking before they can be scrapped. The Sturgis (a former nuclear power barge built from a Liberty ship) was overhauled twice in fifty years - once when she first went into the JRRF in 1967 and again in the 1990s when they wanted to evaluate the decay rate of residual radioactive contamination. She just went to the breakers this year. A light carrier would likely get similar treatment, since it would be considered of low value compared to the nuclear fleet carriers, and pretty much anything it can do could be done as well or better by a Tarawa, Iwo Jima, or Wasp.

[Olefin]

except for two factors on this particular light carrier

she had been in active service until 1989 and was delivered in working condition with fully serviced engines, navigation gear, etc.. - she wasnt towed into port in late 1989 she was sailed in by a full crew of Spanish sailors

and she went into drydock and came out in 1993 with a fully blasted and painted hull, asbestos removed on several decks and otherwise worked on

this isnt a ship thats been sitting around in the Reserve Fleet since the 1950's or Vietnam - she was flying sorties as late as August 1989

[The Dark]

except for two factors on this particular light carrier

she had been in active service until 1989 and was delivered in working condition with fully serviced engines, navigation gear, etc.. - she wasnt towed into port in late 1989 she was sailed in by a full crew of Spanish sailors

and she went into drydock and came out in 1993 with a fully blasted and painted hull, asbestos removed on several decks and otherwise worked on

this isnt a ship thats been sitting around in the Reserve Fleet since the 1950's or Vietnam - she was flying sorties as late as August 1989

Yeah, I conflated two topics into one - the Gage, which was sitting around in the Reserve Fleet since the 1950s, and the original topic of the Cabot (which was only ever in reserve from 2-11-47 to 10-27-48). Mea culpa.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

To be fair to The Dark though, I had made a general statement regarding the reserve fleet and his answer was in response to that.

[mcchordsage]

These type of ships would be used as the basis and I am sure more modern ones were in the works to serve as Escort Carriers of WWIII. The Navy has practically had several of these ships used to carry Marine landing forces, don't recall the name of the vessels, but they too could be press into Escort Carrier type service too.

In the Persian Gulf they could be used as staging asset for the Heli-borne forces. In and around Korea for the same reason and in the North Sea and Baltic Sea in support of the protecting Marine units in those areas.

Almost a decade later, but that would've been the Thetis Bay. CVE to an LPH while the USMC was monkeying around with at-sea ready forces in the late 50s and early 60s.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Speaking of Aircraft carriers, I was reading The RDF Sourcebook and noted that there's a whole (small) carrier battle group still standing and operational, built around the LHA-3 Bellau Wood. The book notes that its air wing stands at 3 UH-60s, however, it (and its sister ships) are still active and protect oil transports going to the US, moving troops around, etc.

There's at least 2 USMC air wings in the region as well with operational Harriers; if "carrier" ops were needed, the resources are right there.

(note LHA-3 and her sister ships are oil-fueled steam turbine ships).

Anyway, thought that was pretty interesting.

[Raellus]

This is a bit of tangent, but I wouldn't be surprised to see container ships converted to ersatz escort carriers during WWIII. I seem to remember reading that both the U.S./UK had contingency plans to do just that during the Cold War. Essentially, on the said container ships, you lay runway matting over a single layer of shipping containers. The containers contain workshops, spare parts, weaponry, etc. The matting acts as a makeshift landing pad for helicopters and/or STOL/VTOL aircraft.

The idea is to provide convoys with ASW protection, without dedicating fleet carriers or amphibs to the task. I suppose that such a conversion vessel could also provide air support to amphib operations.

IIRC, during the 1982 Falklands war, a container ship (the Atlantic Conveyor or similar vessel) was used as a floating base for Sea King and Wessex transport helicopters).

I suppose a container ship runway could be used to launch STOL turboprop light attack aircraft such as OV-10 Broncos and/or A-1 Skyraiders, as well as Harrier jump jets.

IIRC, there's a thread about the above somewhere around here.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

This is a bit of tangent, but I wouldn't be surprised to see container ships converted to ersatz escort carriers during WWIII. I seem to remember reading that both the U.S./UK had contingency plans to do just that during the Cold War. Essentially, on the said container ships, you lay runway matting over a single layer of shipping containers. The containers contain workshops, spare parts, weaponry, etc. The matting acts as a makeshift landing pad for helicopters and/or STOL/VTOL aircraft.

The idea is to provide convoys with ASW protection, without dedicating fleet carriers or amphibs to the task. I suppose that such a conversion vessel could also provide air support to amphib operations.

IIRC, during the 1982 Falklands war, a container ship (the Atlantic Conveyor or similar vessel) was used as a floating base for Sea King and Wessex transport helicopters).

I suppose a container ship runway could be used to launch STOL turboprop light attack aircraft such as OV-10 Broncos and/or A-1 Skyraiders, as well as Harrier jump jets.

IIRC, there's a thread about the above somewhere around here.

SCADS, although at the moment I can't recall what the acronym stood for.

[mcchordsage]

SCADS, although at the moment I can't recall what the acronym stood for.

Shipborne Containerized Air Defense Systems? Containerized system to deliver the needed supplies to convert a container ship for Harrier operations. Was an early 1980s effort I think.

[copeab]

Reminds of early in WWII where some British merchant ships were fitted with a catapult-launched Hurricane for use against German Fw 200 Condors acting as spotters for U-boats. The Hurricanes were usually successful in driving off the Condors, but later finding the convoy so the pilot could ditch nearby (the ships had no way of recovering the aircraft) was a bit tricky ...

[mpipes]

I have been told part of the Cabot debacle was because the museum's board hired a goofball to command the ship with a made up resume as a retired navy Captain. By the time they realized he was a nut case and had no idea what he was doing A LOT of damage due to his incompetent neglect and bungled repairs/maintenance/conversion work had been inflicted on the ship. They were never able to crawl out of the hole he left in the budget to get her in any kind of shape for museum tours.

I understand the Navy was extremely pissed, because they had recommended several officers for the job that the board ignored for the guy they selected, who apparently had some political pull with someone on the board. There may have been a lawsuit filed by some of the investors...not sure.

[rcaf_777]

Shipborne Containerized Air Defense Systems

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Shipborne Containerized Air Defense Systems? Containerized system to deliver the needed supplies to convert a container ship for Harrier operations. Was an early 1980s effort I think.

Shipborne Containerized Air Defense Systems

Yes, that's it exactly. Thank you both.

[The Dark]

The American equivalent was ARAPAHO, which looked to outfit containers with ASW electronics and load 6 to 8 helicopters or Harriers on board, taking up about 30% of the cargo space of (then-current) container ships to convert them to ASW carriers/convoy escorts. When tested (by the Royal Navy) on RFA Reliant off Lebanon in 1984, the lack of watertightness proved to be a problem; helicopters had to be washed down twice daily to prevent salt corrosion, and despite being in the (relatively calm) Mediterranean, the hangar was often awash in 2-3 inches of salt water from spray and rolling.

[rcaf_777]

The American equivalent was ARAPAHO

Actually no it was not ARAPAHO Army Pre-positioned Sustainment Maintenance Facility. Was a concept convinced by Naval Air Systems Command for a portable, modularized aviation facility intended for installation aboard container ships.

The differences are

1. It be installed in less than twenty-four hours and included all components necessary for V/STOL aircraft operations: flight deck, hangar, fuel, and crew accommodations.

2. ARAPAHO was designed be taken off a ship, and moved shore, to be set up as a complete self-sustaining facility to do Aviation Unit Maintenance (AVUM), Aviation Intermediate Maintenance (AVIM), and selected depot work.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/arapaho.htm

[rcaf_777]

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/arapaho.htm

Copied from the above link in case you can't get it to work

ARAPAHO Army Pre-positioned Sustainment Maintenance Facility

In the Arapaho program, the Naval Air Systems Command developed a portable, modularized aviation facility intended for installation aboard container ships. It can be installed in less than twenty-four hours and included all components necessary for V/STOL aircraft operations: flight deck, hangar, fuel, and crew accommodations. It was estimated to cost less than $20 million per set.

ARAPAHO was a research and development project to demonstrate the feasibility of equipping merchant ships with emergency aviation support in wartime and of operating ASW helicopters and other combatant aircraft from these vessels. ARAPAHO at-sea testing was completed 07 October 1982 at the Norfolk International Terminal, Norfolk, Va., when the 18,000-ton container ship Export Leader - configured with a portable modular aviation facility - returned to port after having logged 178 day and 45 night helicopter landings.

The history of the floating maintenance facility goes back to World War II. There was a big fight between the Army Air Force and the Navy over the need for a floating aircraft repair facility. After a great deal of debating among themselves, they came up with three ships. These ships were used in the Pacific when the Americans were island hopping. Before troops could get a facility ashore, they were going to another island. So they put these repair facilities aboard these small ships that were converted for it and they would island hop with the invasion force and were very successful.

After the end of World War II, there was no need for them and they were all dismantled and done away with because no one saw the need for that type of thing in the future. In Korea, there was not a need for them; or if there was, it had such a low priority that no one ever resurrected the concept. In the early 1960s the AV-5 Albemarle, a WWII seaplane tender, was taken out of the James River Fleet off of Fort Eustis and taken down to Charleston. She was converted and renamed ARVH-1 Corpus Christi Bay [ARVH = Aircraft Repair Ship, Helicopter].

Then there was a plan in the late 1960s and early 1970s for a floating aircraft maintenance facility which would have consisted of a small aircraft carrier [an escort carrier] with a hanger built on the flight deck. That was considered to be cost prohibitive at the time and the idea was dropped.

By the mid-1980s there was a plan to resurrect this capability with the project Arapaho, building a modular facility aboard a container ship. The advantage of the Arapaho over the floating aircraft maintenance facility such as the Corpus Christi Bay is that it could be taken off the ship, moved shore, and set up as a complete self-sustaining facility to do Aviation Unit Maintenance (AVUM), Aviation Intermediate Maintenance (AVIM), and selected depot work.

The ability to support the planned force development in all of its potential roles was essential to accomplishment of the Army's missions under the National Security and National Military Strategies. During 1992 the Army took several steps to improve its ability to support its forces in combat and in operations other than war. These covered a wide spectrum of logistical issues such as war reserves; repair parts; tactical water; petroleum, oil, and lubricants; and the industrial base. In the process, the Army leadership had to balance considerations of force structure design, mobility, and personnel end strength with the available resources to properly sustain its forces.

To provide non divisional Aviation Intermediate Maintenance (AVIM) and limited depot support in an operational area, the Army established its Pre-positioned Sustainment Maintenance Facility (ARAPAHO) program. Operating as either a sea-based or land-based facility, ARAPAHO consisted of a designated non divisional AVIM unit's personnel with equipment installed in shelters. Logisticians designed the unit for loading on board a C-5 Seawitch class or larger container ship within twenty-four to thirty-six hours of receiving movement orders, and they envisioned deployment at sea within six days. The unit can use on-board Operational Ready Float (ORF) and Forward Repair Activities (FRA) and will use extended prescribed load list/authorized stockage list (PLL/ASL). ARAPAHO's ability to deploy rapidly would hopefully save forces from waiting sixty days for a ground-based AVIM unit. As a self-transportable unit, ARAPAHO can also quickly redeploy after completing its initial mission.

[rcaf_777]

Here is a link for pictures and stats for RFA Reliance (A131), already talked about there is a really good picture here too

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/uk/brit_cv_astronomer.htm

Other examples of ships like this are:

RFA Argus (A135) of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary which began her career as container ship. The ship was requisitioned in 1982 for service in the Falklands War and purchased outright in 1984 for use as an Aviation Training Ship

RFA Engadine (K08) was a helicopter support ship of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. The need for Engadine was seen in the mid-1960s as more and more helicopters were deployed from Royal Navy aircraft carriers and surface combatants. She was decommissioned in 1989 and sold to new owners in Greece and left the UK in 1990. Broken up in India in 1996

[unkated]

Now, there's an interesting possibility -

Sale of the Cabot, operational if disarmed, into private hands, who turn out to be New America, who load up say 500 well-armed troops, half a dozen helicopters, and go William Walker on Jamaica in 1998/9, in order to provide a safe secure home base...

It isn't going far, and some refill fuel an be raided from the Dutch ABC islands...

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

Now, there's an interesting possibility -

Sale of the Cabot, operational if disarmed, into private hands, who turn out to be New America, who load up say 500 well-armed troops, half a dozen helicopters, and go William Walker on Jamaica in 1998/9, in order to provide a safe secure home base...

It isn't going far, and some refill fuel an be raided from the Dutch ABC islands...

Uncle Ted

Or another may be that it ends up docked at Jacksonville after it runs short of fuel and it becomes part of the Sea Lord of Jacksonville's forces - having a carrier would make him much more formidable even if its just for show - after all most of the world's carriers are either out of action due to damage, out of fuel for either the ship or their planes or sunk

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Per canon, as in, printed by GDW, how much of the US Navy is left as fleet-in-being?

Matt Weiser wrote a pretty good "fanon" writeup in GLYOYO #1; just wondering where the GDW pubs outline what ships are left.

USS City of Corpus Christi, SSGN-981 an Ohio-class SSBN (The Last Sub)

USS John Hancock, DD981, Spruance class (Going Home)

USS Nashville, LPD-13, Austin-class transport dock (The RDF Sourcebook)
USS Bellau Wood, LHA-3, Tarawa-class (The RDF Sourcebook)
USS Clark, FFG-11, Oliver Hazard Perry class (The RDF Sourcebook)
USS Boone, FFG-25*, Oliver Hazard Perry class (The RDF Sourcebook)
USS Copeland, FFG-28*, Oliver Hazard Perry class (The RDF Sourcebook)
USS Salem, CA-139**, Des Moines class heavy cruiser (The RDF Sourcebook)
USS Yorktown, CG-45, Ticonderoga class (The RDF Sourcebook)

...

*=the ship registry numbers are flipped, Boone is FFG-28 and Copeland is FFG-25.

** = now, this is interesting. Salem was decomissioned in 1954. Per Wikipeida: The ship was surveyed in 1981 for possible reactivation as part of the 600 ship navy project, and while the inspection results showed she was in excellent condition, funding to reactivate Salem and her sister Des Moines could not be secured from Congress.

So, even by Twilight:2000's timeline, she wasn't put back in service. However, at some point, she was. She wasn't made into a museum ship until 1994, so that means she sat in the reserve fleet after the 1981 examination. But, again, "she was in excellent condition", so by the T2k timeline, she must have been returned to Naval service rather than given over to museum caretakers in the 1990s. Either that or she was brought back into service to bolster the Navy after losses. I lean towards the former, since finding personnel qualified and gathering the resources to re-tool and make fully combat-worthy a ship of that age would be at best very difficult after even a limited nuclear war...

[unkated]

Or another may be that it ends up docked at Jacksonville after it runs short of fuel and it becomes part of the Sea Lord of Jacksonville's forces - having a carrier would make him much more formidable even if its just for show - after all most of the world's carriers are either out of action due to damage, out of fuel for either the ship or their planes or sunk

By canon (Urban Guerilla), Jacksonville was victimized by a nuclear near-miss that went off in the waters a few miles off shore and drenched the area in radioactive mud, steam and seawater. This led to most of the population fleeing – or dying.

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

By canon (Urban Guerilla), Jacksonville was victimized by a nuclear near-miss that went off in the waters a few miles off shore and drenched the area in radioactive mud, steam and seawater. This led to most of the population fleeing – or dying.

Uncle Ted

And that shows one of the inconsistencies of the modules - if you had a near miss that close that produced that effect then how do you have the Sea-Lord of Jacksonville in 2001 - he is referred to quite clearly in the letters that were intercepted in Urban Guerilla - i.e that the NA had already infiltrated his organization and was working to be able to take over his organization

Jacksonville and Mayport are separated by several miles so that near miss may have devastated the areas along the coast but may have spared a lot of Jacksonville itself - also was the miss in a direct line to Mayport or was it also the south - if that is where it hit then Jacksonville Beach and places like that could have been nailed but must of the city could have been spared

and not sure if the nuke was a surface detonation or airburst

FYI - the idea that a nuke could have caused a wave effect is faulty - https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2015/03/06/the_ultimate_weapon_nuclear_tsunami_bombs__107709. html - if it was a surface burst you can get lots of water and mud shot up in the air but not a wave - it takes a hell of a lot more energy than one megaton to create any kind of appreciable wave

[raketenjagdpanzer]

And that shows one of the inconsistencies of the modules - if you had a near miss that close that produced that effect then how do you have the Sea-Lord of Jacksonville in 2001 - he is referred to quite clearly in the letters that were intercepted in Urban Guerilla - i.e that the NA had already infiltrated his organization and was working to be able to take over his organization

Jacksonville and Mayport are separated by several miles so that near miss may have devastated the areas along the coast but may have spared a lot of Jacksonville itself - also was the miss in a direct line to Mayport or was it also the south - if that is where it hit then Jacksonville Beach and places like that could have been nailed but must of the city could have been spared

and not sure if the nuke was a surface detonation or airburst

FYI - the idea that a nuke could have caused a wave effect is faulty - https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2015/03/06/the_ultimate_weapon_nuclear_tsunami_bombs__107709. html - if it was a surface burst you can get lots of water and mud shot up in the air but not a wave - it takes a hell of a lot more energy than one megaton to create any kind of appreciable wave

My memory could be faulty but wasn't the strike list "Air-burst unless otherwise noted"?

[Olefin]

I think you are right there - if I remember right the list actually said surface when it was a surface burst - i.e. that part at least it didnt leave to chance

Keep in mind however that the list in Howling Wilderness DID NOT exactly match the actual attacks - and before I get the usual rap in the mouth for saying that I mean that the details of the actual attacks varied from the simple list in HW versus for instance Urban Guerilla

Pointed that out last night in another thread - i.e. the attack on Cape Canaveral wasnt a simple one megaton surface burst attack - it was a series of ten 0.1MT surface bursts that added up to one megaton - but if all you had was HW you would think it was a single one megaton bomb

[raketenjagdpanzer]

That "10 hits" thing is ridiculous overkill. I mean, it's canon, so whatcha gonna do, but seriously that's just beyond silly. It's like shooting a lego building eight times with a .22 :P

Anyway, for myself, I'd take the strike list, dial it into Nukemap, and get your best estimate effects from there (but this is wandering far afield, my apologies).

Back to carriers...I could swear to God there was another one mentioned as being in the Gulf, stuck in port (in Kuwait?) due to damage...grr what WAS it...I've discussed the very thing myself.

[Olefin]

Matt mentioned the carrier stuck in the Gulf - but it wasnt canon - but the canon really didnt mention ships very much - and it would make sense that there are ships stuck in various ports all over the world due to damage of various types - that is why the Korean Sourcebook and the East African one actually started detailing out more of what is left of the USN in those areas

and I agree its overkill - I used to work at NASA - and there is no way in hell you need 10 0.1MT nukes to take the place out - heck one was on the VAB building itself - the building is big but you dont need that much of a bomb to take it out - and nuking the pads themselves is MASSIVE OVERKILL - I can see hitting the air force base that way because its so spread out and there are so many targets there - but NASA can be taken out pretty easily with one or two nukes - you dont need ten spread out all over the place - hell just an EMP bomb would have done the job - not going to be doing much if you fry the shuttles and the launch computers

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Well, there are shelters between the SSPF and ONC buildings. I'm sure the Soviets would've tried to fry anyone in those, too. But yeah 10 100kt warheads is massive overkill.

It does lend some credence to the idea that the reason the TDM wasn't as bad as it might have been was because we had a working SDI/Missile Shield, and coming from launches at the Cape, the Soviets might've been making sure there'd be no future missions from there (spiteful, but, eh.)

EDIT:

Anyway, to bring this back around, yes, there's a light aircraft carrier in the USN inventory, along with the aircraft, the fuel to fly them, the personnel to man them, etc. as outlined in the RDF Sourcebook, and it's keeping POL flowing to the US (well, trickling) as the flagship in a protective convoy...

[The Dark]

Per canon, as in, printed by GDW, how much of the US Navy is left as fleet-in-being?

A debatable one: in 2000, USS Tarawa is still in service in the Atlantic per Nautical/Aviation Handbook, page 57. However, that Handbook was primarily intended for use with Merc, so I could see this one being argued either way.

[Olefin]

A debatable one: in 2000, USS Tarawa is still in service in the Atlantic per Nautical/Aviation Handbook, page 57. However, that Handbook was primarily intended for use with Merc, so I could see this one being argued either way.

The Tarawa is really more for the Nautical Aviation Handbook - and I agree that is for Merc not for Twilight 2000

Now that doesnt mean she isnt still around - but I always look at that resource as being one for that version of the game

[Matt Wiser]

Yorktown was CG-48...GDW didn't correct the mistake in RDF Sourcebook. CG-42-46 were not used, though CGN-42 was an unbuilt Virginia class CGN with AEGIS, and canceled without being named or laid down.

There is a Challenge Magazine article which covers the New Jersey Coast, and it mentions two Forrest Sherman class DDs operating out of Cape May USCG base.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Part of the treasure haul I'm slowly liberating from a comic/game store 'round these parts (I only have so much allowance per week ;) ) includes a stack of Challenge magazines, which I may already have in .pdf format, I'll have to check. But if, unlike in the case of AD&D where Dragon (and Dungeon) magazines were decidedly not rules canon (until or unless they were made part of the rules by publication in an official rulebook vis Unearthed Arcana), Challenge is canon, then there might be a bolstering of US Naval strength noted in the magazine, with the 2 Forrest Sherman DDs in use being an example.

[Olefin]

FYI per Marc Miller some of Challenge is canon - the articles written by GDW staff definitely were canon - but he said some of the material submitted by non-GDW wasnt unless a canon author later referred to it or used it

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Well there's some good article-fodder right there: a definitive index of what T2k articles in Challenge are, in fact, canon.

[Olefin]

Well there's some good article-fodder right there: a definitive index of what T2k articles in Challenge are, in fact, canon.

agreed

although some are obvious - i.e. some of what went in Challenge eventually went into the V2 and V2.2 - i.e. most of the new vehicles for instance

[.45cultist]

That was my position, then they countered with "We will move it around with tugs like the Wisla Krolowa, steam driven".

I have my hands full with these guys, all a bit too smart for their britches but at least they keep me on my toes.

Never underestimate PC's! Make them work to come up with the materials and skilled labor for the tugs! Make the amount needed unavailable, but reward them with a couple of tugs, barges.

[Olefin]

Bringing back an old thread from the dead about the Oklahoma City and the Cabot - I think the question on those two ships is really what was more important to the USN if they did try to bring either back - both would need parts so it may be a question of does the navy want a light cruiser or a helicopter carrier?

Between the two ships and the Little Rock which is anchored at Buffalo there would be enough parts to possibly get one or both of them back up and running.

Of the two Cabot is in the better condition as she was in commission as recent as 1989 whereas Oklahoma City has been in reserve since 1979.

Cabot cant operate modern jet planes that take off and land conventionally but she could operate helicopters or jump jets.

Oklahoma City still has her old guns so in an era where missiles are in short supply she still has formidable fire power so she can reach out and touch someone who only has 5 inch guns.

Both of their hulls and engines were in good shape

Thus either of them being brought back to the Navy is real possibility - the question is more which of the two would give the best bang for the Navy

I would think the biggest point that supports Cabot is her ability to be an aircraft transport - and given the losses the USN took in carriers she could be a way to get helos back home from Europe if she was still around by the end of the war

[Raellus]

I would think the biggest point that supports Cabot is her ability to be an aircraft transport - and given the losses the USN took in carriers she could be a way to get helos back home from Europe if she was still around by the end of the war

Would the Cabot have been sold back to the USA by Spain in 1989 if the Cold War hadn't ended (in the v1 timeline)? If the Cold War had continued, I can see NATO pressuring Spain to keep her in service, perhaps even subsidizing her operating costs. Another way of the looking at it, though, is that if the Cold War had continued, Spain would have invested in a newer carrier to replace the aging Cabot/Dedalo, making the Cabot surplus to requirements and increasing the likelihood that it would be sold back to the USA.

Anyway, if she did end up back in US service, I can see the Cabot or her afore-mentioned sister ships as being useful earlier in the war as a convoy escort, flying ASW helicopters (probably Sea Kings and/or Sea Sprites taken out of mothballs).

-

[Olefin]

Would the Cabot have been sold back to the USA by Spain in 1989 if the Cold War hadn't ended (in the v1 timeline)? If the Cold War had continued, I can see NATO pressuring Spain to keep her in service, perhaps even subsidizing her operating costs. Another way of the looking at it, though, is that if the Cold War had continued, Spain would have invested in a newer carrier to replace the aging Cabot/Dedalo, making the Cabot surplus to requirements and increasing the likelihood that it would be sold back to the USA.

Anyway, if she did end up back in US service, I can see the Cabot or her afore-mentioned sister ships as being useful earlier in the war as a convoy escort, flying ASW helicopters (probably Sea Kings and/or Sea Sprites taken out of mothballs).

-

I think thats the real question - in our timeline the Spanish built a replacement and retired the Dedalo which is how she ended up back in the US. But a V1 timeline where the Cold War never ended may have had her stay in reserve in Spain - in which case then it would be Oklahoma City that comes back from mothballs most likely.

The rest of the CVL's were long gone by either timeline - but given the losses to carriers the US took it would be very tempting to get her back into service at the very least to be an ASW or assault carrier - or even an aircraft transport.

[shrike6]

The Cabot could have also have been used as an aircraft ferry ala USNS Card during the Vietnam war.

[Olefin]

The Cabot could have also have been used as an aircraft ferry ala USNS Card during the Vietnam war.

Thats what I was thinking too - i.e. say you get her back in shape by 1996/early 1997 - you need to move helos to somewhere like Panama - the air transport fleet is going to be pretty busy by then. So what is a great way to get say a dozen Huey's down there or a half dozen UH-60's? Answer load them on Cabot and fly them off her deck.

And her engines were old WWII engines and the fuel she burns is a lot more available than using a crap load of jet fuel to fly them down a couple at a time. Let alone the wear and tear on the air frames of the transports.

[shrike6]

As far as the CLG-9 is concerned I don't see it being viable to reactivate. No other ships use 6" guns. So you're either going to have to start an assembly line for just 6' ammo for a single ship or replace that turret with other armaments. Lets not forget about the thing that makes it a CLG the Talos missile launcher. The last time a Talos missile was fired was by the OKC herself 18 years before. So that system needs to be replaced. Let alone that you need to replace some of the bofors with phalanx to give it some kind of close in defense.

[Olefin]

As far as the CLG-9 is concerned I don't see it being viable to reactivate. No other ships use 6" guns. So you're either going to have to start an assembly line for just 6' ammo for a single ship or replace that turret with other armaments. Lets not forget about the thing that makes it a CLG the Talos missile launcher. The last time a Talos missile was fired was by the OKC herself 18 years before. So that system needs to be replaced. Let alone that you need to replace some of the bofors with phalanx to give it some kind of close in defense.

And got me - unless someone else on the forum knows - if there is still any 6 inch ammo in stock that the USN has that is available

They would have had whatever was on her when they decommissioned her in 1979- but would the USN have held onto any remaining stores? The only other countries that would have had ammunition would have been the few countries still operating the old Brooklyn class CL's - but got me what Argentina, Brazil and Chile still have in stock for 6 inch ammo since even their ships were out of commission by the time of the Twilight War

[rcaf_777]

Another Idea

[CDAT]

And got me - unless someone else on the forum knows - if there is still any 6 inch ammo in stock that the USN has that is available

They would have had whatever was on her when they decommissioned her in 1979- but would the USN have held onto any remaining stores? The only other countries that would have had ammunition would have been the few countries still operating the old Brooklyn class CL's - but got me what Argentina, Brazil and Chile still have in stock for 6 inch ammo since even their ships were out of commission by the time of the Twilight War

When I was in EOD school, they brought out all sorts of ammo that was still in storage that we no longer had weapons to use, for us to train with. So I can not say 6" for sure, but I would not be surprised. We got a 8" round to practice cutting into, and according to Wikipedia it was last in service in 1975.

[shrike6]

When I was in EOD school, they brought out all sorts of ammo that was still in storage that we no longer had weapons to use, for us to train with. So I can not say 6" for sure, but I would not be surprised. We got a 8" round to practice cutting into, and according to Wikipedia it was last in service in 1975.

I'll defer to your superior knowledge on that subject. Sounds at least plausible that 6" is still around then. Still what to do about the Talos mk7 missile launcher though? There would be no stores of those since all the remaining Talos were converted to MQM-8G Vandal.


Another thing to think about did CGN-9 Long Beach go through with its scheduled AEGIS upgrade. Did other CGNs get the upgrade as well?

[Vespers War]

I'll defer to your superior knowledge on that subject. Sounds at least plausible that 6" is still around then. Still what to do about the Talos mk7 missile launcher though? There would be no stores of those since all the remaining Talos were converted to MQM-8G Vandal.


Another thing to think about did CGN-9 Long Beach go through with its scheduled AEGIS upgrade. Did other CGNs get the upgrade as well?

Plans had been drawn up to replace the Talos missiles with a pair of 8-cell Sea Sparrow launchers (and add a pair of Phalanx CIWS in place of the Bofors). Probably not plausible post-Thanksgiving, but as an early war refit it's at least somewhat possible.

[swaghauler]

I'll defer to your superior knowledge on that subject. Sounds at least plausible that 6" is still around then. Still what to do about the Talos mk7 missile launcher though? There would be no stores of those since all the remaining Talos were converted to MQM-8G Vandal.


Another thing to think about did CGN-9 Long Beach go through with its scheduled AEGIS upgrade. Did other CGNs get the upgrade as well?

I did a thread called the Navy in Version 2.2 where I discussed how the "real-world" drawdown could be used to justify why Russia was able to stand against the US. There are links to SEVERAL websites there that talk about proposed upgrades as well as my own "take" on updating ships based on my conversations with my friends who served during the '90s.

Just search for: swaghauler's "The Navy in V2.2" in the threads search.

[shrike6]

Plans had been drawn up to replace the Talos missiles with a pair of 8-cell Sea Sparrow launchers (and add a pair of Phalanx CIWS in place of the Bofors). Probably not plausible post-Thanksgiving, but as an early war refit it's at least somewhat possible.

I can buy the Sea Sparrow replacement, VW. Youre right it comes down to timing on whether it happens or not.


I did a thread called the Navy in Version 2.2 where I discussed how the "real-world" drawdown could be used to justify why Russia was able to stand against the US. There are links to SEVERAL websites there that talk about proposed upgrades as well as my own "take" on updating ships based on my conversations with my friends who served during the '90s.

Just search for: swaghauler's "The Navy in V2.2" in the threads search.

Thanks I'm going to check it out.



I see one last issue no one has addressed. The next USS Oklahoma City SSN-723 is already in service. What do we call CLG-9 then?

[rcaf_777]

Would the Cabot have been sold back to the USA by Spain in 1989 if the Cold War hadn't ended (in the v1 timeline)? If the Cold War had continued, I can see NATO pressuring Spain to keep her in service, perhaps even subsidizing her operating costs.

By 1989 the Cabot has been in service for 47 years, and is the only ship of her class left in service in the world and considering that in 1988 the Príncipe de Asturias entered service with the Spanish Navy which is a new carrier. Why not return her to the US?

To quote MARAD directly "the National Defense Reserve Fleet consists of "mothballed" ships, mostly merchant vessels, that can be activated within 20 to 120 days to provide shipping for the United States of America during national emergencies, either military or non-military, such as commercial shipping crises."

The US Navy counterpart "A Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility (NISMF) is a facility owned by the United States Navy as a holding facility for decommissioned naval vessels, pending determination of their final fate. All ships in these facilities are inactive, but some are still on the Naval Vessel Register (NVR), while others have been struck from that Register.

The ships that have been stricken from the NVR are disposed of by one of several means, including foreign military sale transfer, ship donation as a museum or memorial, domestic dismantling and recycling, artificial reefing, or use as a target vessel. Others are retention assets for possible future reactivation, which have been laid up for long-term preservation and are maintained with minimal maintenance (humidity control, corrosion control, flood/fire watch) should they need to be recalled to active duty."

according to the Navy’s 30-Year Shipbuilding Plan to Congress for Fiscal Year 2016, The Navy has been reducing the number of inactive ships, which numbered as many as 195 in 1997, but was down to 49 by the end of 2014.

[Raellus]

By 1989 the Cabot has been in service for 47 years, and is the only ship of her class left in service in the world and considering that in 1988 the Príncipe de Asturias entered service with the Spanish Navy which is a new carrier. Why not return her to the US?

That's certainly possible- likely, even. I was just thinking that maybe the US Navy Department would rather Spain continue to foot the bill for operating a aging, obsolescent carrier instead of getting stuck with her on its own balance sheet.

BTW, I'm sorry I didn't mention it earlier, but thanks for posting that pic of an improvised helicopter carrier based on a civilian merchant vessel. A few years ago, someone shared an article here that they wrote about converting container ships into convoy escort ASW carriers. I remember that I thought it was really well-done, but I can't remember who wrote it. Chico, maybe?

Anyone remember that?

EDIT: Here are some more threads relevant to this topic:

Recommissioned US Navy Ships
https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=3080&highlight=container+ship

Aircraft Carrier Question
https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=4390&highlight=container+ship

-

[swaghauler]

Another Idea

Ah yes, The HMS Atlantic Conveyor and HMS Atlantic Causeway of the Falkland Islands campaign!

[Ursus Maior]

Since the mothballed vessels of US naval ships came up, here is a list of "Historical Fleet Lists Since July 1990" of the United States Maritime Administration (MARAD). Please note, these are not warships, but merchant vessels:

https://www.maritime.dot.gov/data-reports/data-statistics/vessel-inventory-reports-july-1990

[rcaf_777]

Ah yes, The HMS Atlantic Conveyor and HMS Atlantic Causeway of the Falkland Islands campaign!

No, it actually the Athena Research Vessel from Kong: Skull Island

https://zacharyberger.artstation.com/projects/wKKRZ

[rcaf_777]

Since the mothballed vessels of US naval ships came up, here is a list of "Historical Fleet Lists Since July 1990" of the United States Maritime Administration (MARAD). Please note, these are not warships, but merchant's vessels:

https://www.maritime.dot.gov/data-reports/data-statistics/vessel-inventory-reports-july-1990

Has stated above "MARAD directly "the National Defense Reserve Fleet consists of "mothballed" ships, mostly merchant vessels, that can be activated within 20 to 120 days to provide shipping for the United States of America during national emergencies, either military or non-military, such as commercial shipping crises."

While US Navy counterpart "A Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility (NISMF) is a facility owned by the United States Navy as a holding facility for decommissioned naval vessels, pending determination of their final fate.

[rcaf_777]

That's certainly possible- likely, even. I was just thinking that maybe the US Navy Department would rather Spain continue to foot the bill for operating an ageing, obsolescent carrier instead of getting stuck with her on its own balance sheet.

to quote NavSource.org

Stricken from the Spanish Navy List, 5 Aug 1989, at New Orleans, and donated to a private organization for preservation as a museum ship. Plans to memorialize her, however, met with no success in subsequent years; she was sold for scrapping in 1997 and towed to Port Isabel, TX on 18 Oct, then to Brownsville on 9 Aug 1998.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/28.htm

Haze Gray & Underway

"Following many years of service as an ASW and VSTOL carrier, Dedalo returned to the US and was decommissioned at New Orleans 5 August 1989. Her ownership was transferred to the Cabot/Dedalo Association, and she was to be preserved as a museum. Sadly the Association wasted the funds it had raised for the preservation project, and the fate of this historic ship was soon in doubt. Despite being in excellent condition, and retaining many WWII-era features such as her original 40 mm AA guns, the last surviving light carrier of WWII sat at a pier in New Orleans for many years as the Association made no real attempt to preserve the ship.

In 1995, citing financial pressures, the Association attempted to sell the ship to foreign shipbreakers, but the sale was thwarted by preservation and environmental concerns. Despite preservation efforts by outside parties, the Association seemed interested only in scrapping the ship, and she was towed to Port Isabel, TX on 18 October 1997 for that purpose. Cabot was moved into Global Marine's shipbreaking berth at Brownsville, TX, on 9 August 1998. At some point, the ship had been transferred into Global Marine's possession, although legal title to the ship remained a contested issue.

Outside groups continued their efforts to block the sale or scrapping of the ship, and their legal efforts had temporary success. On 26 April 1999 Cabot was "arrested" by the US Marshals Service, and a court-ordered auction was scheduled. It was hoped that this auction would give preservation groups a final, honest chance to obtain clear title to the ship, with the proceeds of the auction going to pay off the numerous liens against the ship. The auction took place on 9 September 1999, and the ship was sold to Sabe Marine Salvage for $185,000. Sabe Marine Salvage apparently was another of the "paper" companies that had claimed ownership of the ship in recent years; all the companies were apparently owned by a common owner or owners. Although there were several additional efforts to save the ship, and the scrapping was postponed for many months, stripping work started during October 2000."

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/cabot/#neworl

[pmulcahy11b]

And got me - unless someone else on the forum knows - if there is still any 6 inch ammo in stock that the USN has that is available

They would have had whatever was on her when they decommissioned her in 1979- but would the USN have held onto any remaining stores? The only other countries that would have had ammunition would have been the few countries still operating the old Brooklyn class CL's - but got me what Argentina, Brazil and Chile still have in stock for 6 inch ammo since even their ships were out of commission by the time of the Twilight War

The Navy had some 16-inch ammo to stock the Missouri when it went to Desert Storm, despite the ship having been mothballed quite a while earlier -- but that's all there was.

[rcaf_777]

Essex Class

USS Yorktown (CV-10) - Museum Ship Mount Pleasant, SC
USS Intrepid (CV-11) - Museum Ship New York City, NY
USS Hornet (CV-12) - Museum Ship, Alameda Ca
USS Lexington (CV-16) - Museum Ship, Corpus Christi Tx
USS Bennington (CV-20) - Hulk only Port Angeles, Wa
USS Oriskany (CV-34) - Hulk only Mare Island Naval Shipyard, Vallejo Ca

Forrestal Class

USS Forrestal (CV-59) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Saratoga (CV-60) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Ranger (CV-61) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA

Independence Class

USS Cabot (CVL-28) - Decommissioned for preservation at New Orleans

Midway Class

USS Midway (CV-41) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA
USS Coral Sea (CV-43) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Philadelphia PA

[shrike6]

Essex Class

USS Yorktown (CV-10) - Museum Ship Mount Pleasant, SC
USS Intrepid (CV-11) - Museum Ship New York City, NY
USS Hornet (CV-12) - Museum Ship, Alameda Ca
USS Lexington (CV-16) - Museum Ship, Corpus Christi Tx
USS Bennington (CV-20) - Hulk only Port Angeles, Wa
USS Oriskany (CV-34) - Hulk only Mare Island Naval Shipyard, Vallejo Ca

Forrestal Class

USS Forrestal (CV-59) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Saratoga (CV-60) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Ranger (CV-61) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA

Independence Class

USS Cabot (CVL-28) - Decommissioned for preservation at New Orleans

Midway Class

USS Midway (CV-41) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA
USS Coral Sea (CV-43) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Philadelphia PA

Interesting although you can make the case that all the Forrestals were active still. Ranger was scheduled for a SLEP in the early 90s which got cancelled. Forrestal was scheduled to be a dedicated training before the 90s defense cuts.