2nd Marine Division - Norther Poland

[oldschoolgm]

I'm in the process of setting up for playing T2K for the first time in years. I've been going back and re-reading a lot the the books and material especially with regards to the last offensive in the year 2000 so that I can better understand the overall situation in Poland when the game actually starts in Kalisz.

One part that I'd like some input on regards the spearhead that pushed across northern Poland and specifically the 2nd Marine Division. Some of the things I'm wondering about is the depth of the success of this spearhead? Where did it stop? Could it have turned south prior to July? Where did the Marines land? How far did the Marines advance? And could have lead elements of any of these divisions, especially the Marines, linked up with the 5th Mech Div?

[atiff]

I previously collected a bunch of info into a timeline, which may not be 100% accurate, but gives some idea. See below.... I cut out a lot of stuff but it is still quite long.



By the spring of 2000, the armies of Europe have settled into their cantonment system.

April 8: German 3rd Army and US 11th Corps begin the last offensive.
consisting of the German III Corp (6th PGD, 21st PGD, 29th PD, Jutland (Danish) Mechanized Division) and XI US Corp (5th ID, 8th ID, 50th AD, 2nd Marine Div, 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade and the 116th ACR) were to sweep the Baltic coastline clear of Pact forces.

For whatever reason, the US 5th ID found itself the spearhead, tasked with making the initial breakthrough and then bearing south in an attempt to outflank and cut supply lines to Soviet forces close to the German border (the same ones facing the British).

Meanwhile amphibious landings were to be made by the 2nd Marine Div across the river estuaries of northern Poland with the 8th ID heading further east to cut lines of any hope of reinforcement from Russia. The 50th Armored Division was to fill the gap between the 5th and 8th while 116th ACR and Can 4th Mech Bde were held in reserve


The Polish units directly in the path of the juggernaut US XI Corps, simply melted away in the face of far superior technical and numeric forces rather than submitting to the certainty of defeat and destruction.

Heading north in good order they entered the area between Gdansk and Slupsk to begin harassing the northern flank of the offensive. Although cut of from the rest of the Pact forces, their supply needs were minimal due to low numbers and high reliance on horses. Food was also plentiful with rich fishing grounds to three sides.

With the Polish withdrawal north, XI Corps were forced to commit the 50th AD to hold them in check until the Canadians and 116th ACR could be brought up to assist with eliminating them.

The Canadians and bulk of 116th ACR however had been called upon to assist the British to hold an increasingly restless Soviet Army. The Germans were due to relieve the Canadians and 116th in place within a week, freeing them to join the 50th AD, crush the under equipped Poles and catch up with the remainder of the XI Corp.

June: The US 2nd Marine Div commenced it’s move by sea to assault the area from the ruins of Gdansk to Elblag. Although the move was successful, valuable equipment was lost when a supporting vessel struck a sea mine and sunk taking nearly 30% of the divisions stores with it. Fortunately almost all the divisions personnel and armour made it to shore, but within a week were running short on fuel.
Ammunition expenditure had been minimal due to the absence of any enemy opposition beyond local militias, while food was plentiful in the mainly agricultural floodplains.
Faced with the growing fuel shortage and lack of significant enemy units within the area to raid for more, the divisional commander chose to move westward with the aim of linking up with the 50th AD and lending what support he could against the trapped Poles.

Jun 19 - 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) begins a converging drive on the Bydgoszcz and Torun area in Poland.
Contact is made with partisans of the 2nd Polish Free Legion in Tuchola.

Jun 21 - Advance elements of the 5th Inf Div reach Torun.

Jun 29 - After a week of regrouping, the 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) heads south from Torun.

Jun 30 - 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) closes up on Wloclawek.


July 1 - Advanced elements of the 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) closes on Krosniewice, Poland.

Jul 11 - German 3rd Army is attacked by 1st Polish Tank Army from Pila
Soviet 22nd Cavalry Army overruns Torun. Soviet 10th Guards Tank Division is attacked and overrun by elements of the Soviet 22nd Cavalry Army, taking severe casualties and losing the last of its tanks.

8th US ID had moved far beyond it’s originally intended area chasing fleeing rear area Pact units, the 50th was stalled, holding the Polish forces in place and waiting for the Canadians and 116th ACR to arrive, and the 2nd Marines were virtually immobile but slowly crawling westward. The last reported position of the 8th was, amazingly, somewhere in western Russia.


July 17-18 - Battle of Kalisz.
US 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) is destroyed, the troops scattering.
Soviet 124th Motor Rifle Division is shattered.
Soviet 21st Motorized Rifle Division and Polish 10th Tank Division lead the battle

As the sudden appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army had stirred up the entire European front with pressure being brought to bear everywhere, the 3rd Army commander had no choice but to cut his losses and attempt to consolidate what few gains had been made.
The German III Corp was given orders to move into positions supporting British and other German units, but before this order could be carried out, the remaining Polish units not trapped by the US 50th AD or in contact with the remnants of the US 5th ID, began exerting northward pressure around the eastern flank of the Canadians and 116th ACR.

Soviet units held in reserve moved northward directly against the Canadians forcing them back towards the coast.
What had initially been conceived as a deep penetration into central Poland via the Baltic coast, followed by right swing to cut off Pact forces had suddenly turned into a gigantic trap for the Americans and Canadians as Pact divisions forced their way towards Szczecin.

With the German units already on the road elsewhere the race was on between the Americans and Soviets – if the Soviets reached the coastline first, the entire XI Corps would be cut off.

The 2nd Marine made contact with the right (east) flank of the 50th AD just in time. Fuel reserves were transferred and suddenly the marines were mobile once more. The bulk of the 50th ADs fighting force was hurriedly redeployed southward to screen the 2nd Marines move from the much more dangerous Soviets (the marines taking over responsibility for holding the Poles back).
Meanwhile the Canadians and 116th ACR fell back under increasing pressure from combined Soviet and Polish forces, towards the Corp HQ at Karlino, unable to do more than slow the oncoming mass of troops and tanks.

[oldschoolgm]

That's more than I've found so far. Besides the amphibious landing I'd only been able to find in the US Vehicles sourcebook that the 2nd Marine Div whereabouts were unknown and unit size was unknown. At least according to this The Marines stayed close to the coast.

Great info, thanks

[Legbreaker]

I wrote up the followed a year or two back after exhaustive research into the canon material. Although much of the material is my own invention, it is rooted VERY strongly in the published material. Nothing contradicts the books in any way. Reposted for your convieniance! :D
Atiff's post is a summary of this on the whole.

This is an assessment of the German 3rd Army spring offensive, why it was undertaken and how it was that the sudden appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army at Lodz was so absolutely disastrous not only to the US 5th ID but to the offensive as a whole.

The 3rd Army, consisting of the German III Corp (6th PGD, 21st PGD, 29th PD, Jutland (Danish) Mechanised Division) and XI US Corp (5th ID, 8th ID, 50th AD, 2nd MARDIV, 4th Canadian Mechanised Brigade and the 116th ACR) were to sweep the Baltic coastline clear of Pact forces. Numbering approximately 30,000 troops and over 185 tanks it was a force more than capable of achieving it's goals, especially when it is considered that no major operations had been conducted in about a year (time in which fuel, food and ammunition was being stockpiled).

At the commencement of the offensive, Pact forces in the area consisted of little more than the remnants of almost all Poland’s military forces (predominately cavalry with mostly 40+ year old tanks). Total Polish strength was barely 20,000 men and 28 tanks. Between them and Czechoslovakia was the might of the Soviet Army - virtually impregnable for the forces of NATO in 2000.

Holding the right flank of the starting position of the offensive was the British army (region of Berlin and Frankfurt). Facing them across well prepared positions was the northern end of the Soviet line. It would have been the British responsibility to hold these Soviet positions with those units already in contact while swinging their reserves up and around behind the 3rd Army to cover their rear. Due to the appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army approximately 700km to the east, these units never moved.

The plan was simple enough in concept and should have been almost simpler in execution. XI US Corp was to lead, perhaps due to the usual American desire to be predominant, maybe because they had been resting longer, or perhaps it was as simple as them being in the best position to begin with. For whatever reason, the US 5th ID found itself the spearhead, tasked with making the initial breakthrough and then bearing south in an attempt to outflank and cut supply lines to Soviet forces close to the German border (the same ones facing the British).

Meanwhile amphibious landings were to be made by the 2nd MARDIV across the river estuaries of northern Poland with the 8th ID heading further east to cut lines of any hope of reinforcement from Russia. The 50th Armoured Division was to fill the gap between the 5th and 8th while 116th ACR and Can 4th Mech Bde were held in reserve.

The remainder of the 3rd Army were tasked with filling the gap between the 5th ID and the British forces. They, like the British, had barely reached the start line recently vacated by the US units before the Soviet 4th Guards Army screwed everything up.

The Polish units directly in the path of the juggernaut US XI Corps, simply melted away in the face of far superior technical and numeric forces rather than submitting to the certainty of defeat and destruction. Heading north in good order they entered the area between Gdansk and Slupsk to begin harassing the northern flank of the offensive. Although cut of from the rest of the Pact forces, their supply needs were minimal due to low numbers and high reliance on horses. Food was also plentiful with rich fishing grounds to three sides. With the Polish withdrawal north, XI Corps were forced to commit the 50th AD to hold them in check until the Canadians and 116th ACR could be brought up to assist with eliminating them.

The Canadians and bulk of 116th ACR however had been called upon to assist the British to hold an increasingly restless Soviet Army. The Germans were due to relieve the Canadians and 116th in place within a week, freeing them to join the 50th AD, crush the under equipped Poles and catch up with the remainder of the XI Corp.

The US 2nd MARDIV commenced it’s move by sea to assault the area from the ruins of Gdansk to Elblag escorted by the only US Destroyer still afloat in within five thousand miles, the USS John Hancock. Although the move was successful, valuable equipment was lost when a supporting vessel struck a sea mine and sunk taking nearly 30% of the divisions stores with it. Fortunately almost all the divisions personnel and armour made it to shore, but within a week were running short on fuel. Ammunition expenditure had been minimal due to the absence of any enemy opposition beyond local militias, while food was plentiful in the mainly agricultural floodplains.

Faced with the growing fuel shortage and lack of significant enemy units within the area to raid for more, the divisional commander chose to move westward with the aim of linking up with the 50th AD and lending what support he could against the trapped Poles.

By the middle of July the situation had changed dramatically for the worse. The US 5th ID was about to face annihilation, the 8th had moved far beyond it’s originally intended area chasing fleeing rear area Pact units, the 50th was stalled, holding the Polish forces in place and waiting for the Canadians and 116th ACR to arrive, and the 2nd Marines were virtually immobile but slowly crawling westward. There was nobody who could rescue the beleaguered 5th ID and the last reported position of the 8th was, amazingly, somewhere in western Russia.

As the sudden appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army had stirred up the entire European front with pressure being brought to bear everywhere, the 3rd Army commander had no choice but to cut his losses and attempt to consolidate what few gains had been made. The German III Corp was given orders to move into positions supporting British and other German units, but before this order could be carried out, the remaining Polish units not trapped by the US 50th AD or in contact with the remnants of the US 5th ID, began exerting northward pressure around the eastern flank of the Canadians and 116th ACR. Soviet units held in reserve moved northward directly against the Canadians forcing them back towards the coast.

What had initially been conceived as a deep penetration into central Poland via the Baltic coast, followed by right swing to cut off Pact forces had suddenly turned into a gigantic trap for the Americans and Canadians as Pact divisions forced their way towards Szczecin. With the German units already on the road elsewhere the race was on between the Americans and Soviets – if the Soviets reached the coastline first, the entire XI Corps would be cut off.

The 2nd MARDIV made contact with the right (east) flank of the 50th AD just in time. Fuel reserves were transferred and suddenly the marines were mobile once more. The bulk of the 50th ADs fighting force was hurriedly redeployed southward to screen the 2nd Marines move from the much more dangerous Soviets (the marines taking over responsibility for holding the Poles back).

Meanwhile the Canadians and 116th ACR fell back under increasing pressure from combined Soviet and Polish forces, towards the Corp HQ at Karlino, unable to do more than slow the oncoming mass of troops and tanks.

Aftermath
The XI Corp is cut off from friendly forces not so much by the Soviets as by the terrain – the Oder river and numerous interconnected lakes form a water barrier from Szczecin to the Baltic. The Corp is still in contact by sea with Germany, but any move to rejoin allied forces would require an offensive against Pact divisions to the south and east of the irradiated ruins of Szczecin. Some supply is possible by available shipping, but there is not enough capacity remaining after the spring debacle to withdraw even a small part of the Corp. Port facilities are likewise limited with most supplies having to be brought directly onto the beaches by small boat.

[atiff]

Hi LB,

I knew I got it from somewhere, but couldn't remember where... I was scavenging a lot, and lost track of the sources. Kudos to you!

Andrew

[Legbreaker]

Thanks. I had a week or so free and the time on my hands to research it all...
Even checked out suitability of the ports along the Polish coast for resupply operations or even landing of heavy equipment - trucks, tanks, other vehicles (by 2000 in canon there's almost nothing left capable of dealing with more than small fishing boats that doesn't glow in the dark).

[Dog 6]

leg did you ever work out what ships other then the Hancock ?

[oldschoolgm]

Thanks Leg, great stuff there. Are there any maps anywhere that show all these movements?

[Legbreaker]

The USS Tarawa was definately involved - an Osprey is shown in the Nautical & Aviation colour plates as being from it and in Poland/Baltic in the summer of 2000.
There is no other reference anywhere of warships in the region.

I have made the assumption that the Tarawa was sunk (loosing all those supplies) and the rest of the Division travelled on fishing boats and other small craft. Might be a few LCT type vessels though.

I haven't created a map of the movements and frankly don't think I have the skill to do it justice. I'd be very happy if somebody took on that task.

There's also very little information on German movements during the offensive. My presumption was (as written) they were engaged by Pact forces before they could get very far.

Part of the reason I had the 2nd Marines withdraw was that they were described in Going Home as having grown as a direct result of the offensive - picked up more troops and tanks. This to me says they swept up stragglers as the rest of XI Corps withdrew westward as their supply lines were threatened and news of the 5th's destruction came through.

[pmulcahy11b]

The Marines in the area are also said to have a Leopard tank in their possession (in the OOB in US Combat Vehicle Handbook, I believe), which implies that possibly either the Marines and the Germans were operating in the same area, or that stragglers from one of the German units made their way to the Marines' lines. (Or the Marines just found it, abandoned.)

[Rainbow Six]

One of the first Challenge magazines published after T2K was first released had an article entitled "Looter's Guide to the Baltic Coast" which gave some more info on various towns / cities in Northern Poland. Might be info in there that might be useful?

[oldschoolgm]

I guess I'll be reading 'Going Home' today to freshen my memory up on what's there.

One of the things I'm kinda curious about as I read this information is that the offensive began and was suppose to cross accross the Northern portion of Poland. The impression I've gotten from the books is that the XI Corps was spread from the Baltic coast to close to the central part of Poland. The 3rd German Army seems to have stayed along the Baltic, though from rereading this a couple of times, they may have launched more from the center since that seems to be where the bulk of the Soviet and Polish forces seem to have been placed in this region.

So I guess my question is, and why I was wondering if there was a map showing this offensive, if the 5th Div was the spearhead how did they get pushed so far south while everyone else stayed to the north, and what path did the 8th Div follow to get so far into the interior?

[Dog 6]

The USS Tarawa was definately involved - an Osprey is shown in the Nautical & Aviation colour plates as being from it and in Poland/Baltic in the summer of 2000.
There is no other reference anywhere of warships in the region.

I have made the assumption that the Tarawa was sunk (loosing all those supplies) and the rest of the Division travelled on fishing boats and other small craft. Might be a few LCT type vessels though.

I haven't created a map of the movements and frankly don't think I have the skill to do it justice. I'd be very happy if somebody took on that task.

There's also very little information on German movements during the offensive. My presumption was (as written) they were engaged by Pact forces before they could get very far.

Part of the reason I had the 2nd Marines withdraw was that they were described in Going Home as having grown as a direct result of the offensive - picked up more troops and tanks. This to me says they swept up stragglers as the rest of XI Corps withdrew westward as their supply lines were threatened and news of the 5th's destruction came through.

The Nautical/aviation book says in the color plate notes on page 57 "attached to the Atlantic fleet in 2000" it says nothing about summer 2000 or Poland. with the general lack of fuel in the world, I'd have to say its sitting on the US east cost out of fuel

if you assume it was off the cost of Poland and carrying the 2nd mardiv. then you can't sink it until it offloads on the beach. if you do you've just sunk half the divisions men and all of its tanks, AFV's and other heavy equipment. Tarawa class LHA's carry 1700 troops, 100 tanks and 160 trucks. I can't see what other ships would be left that could carry the men, tanks, AFV's, trucks and heavy equipment. A much better ship to sink imo would be a Charleston class amphibious cargo ship. carrying only 360 troops but 10,000 tones of fuel and supply's.


after digging out my T2K books and looking through them I can see no ships off the cost of Poland. if I was using "cannon " only I'd not have them move massively by sea, I'd have them leap frog down the cost using the 30-40 amtracks they have along with a few LCU-2000's and fishing boats, maybe add in a German cargo ship. that would also be the best way for them to pick up the tanks and equipment from 7 countries talked about in Going Home.


just my 2 cents :D

[Adm.Lee]

So I guess my question is, and why I was wondering if there was a map showing this offensive, if the 5th Div was the spearhead how did they get pushed so far south while everyone else stayed to the north, and what path did the 8th Div follow to get so far into the interior?

We ran around and around on this in a thread or two last summer, IIRC. The major consensus was that the Germans weren't supporting this one too thoroughly before it started, and as soon as things got rough, they backed out and left XI US Corps out there. Possibly, they blew some bridges over the lower Oder to cover their tracks. The sudden appearance of the 4th Guards Tank Army was a terrible shock.

My contention was that the whole 2000 offensive may have been inspired by the ambitions of Polish exiles, who declared that the Poles wouldn't fight for the Soviets anymore and would defect en masse if the Americans would give them a big enough show of force. The easy success of the initial push reinforced this conclusion, and the XI US Corps commander (I suggested his chief of staff was of Polish ancestry, perhaps with connections to the Polish Free Congress) shoved as hard as he could in what appeared to be the war-winning move. The 5th MD went off on an attempt to seize Lodz (which included the cover for the DIA's Reset operation), and the 8th MD went further east, in pursuit of rumors of similar Lithuanian defections. Some units did defect, Soviet and Polish, and may have been trying to get to positions to help the push.
When the 4th GTA blasted the 5th Division and some Polish units rallied to fight back at the Germans, it all fell apart. The German III Corps and/or Third Army commanders felt it was some kind of trap, and acted to keep their own forces and territory from falling into it. If there were rumors of the "Red Bear" Chelkov behind it, that could certainly have reinforced it.
Was the whole operation a KGB feint to draw out NATO's reserves? Was it an honest effort by the Polish Free Congress? If so, was it rolled up at the last minute by the KGB/GRU, or were they just overly optimistic about generals' willingness to change sides? Was it the presence of the Germans behind the Americans that caused some Polish generals to change their minds about defecting?
In short, I project a "Bridge Too Far" air about the whole operation. A grand, war-winning gamble if it worked, but built on what turned out to be a foundation of sand.

[Legbreaker]

The Nautical/aviation book says in the colour plate notes on page 57 "attached to the Atlantic fleet in 2000" it says nothing about summer 2000 or Poland. with the general lack of fuel in the world, I'd have to say its sitting on the US east coast out of fuel

Why? It's a combat vessel. If it was short of fuel, it makes much more sense for it to be in Europe than halfway around the world nowhere near a battlefield. Same goes for all the remnants of the Atlantic fleet.

The Tarawa had to have been sunk sometime before TF34 otherwise (to me at least) it makes much more sense for it to have been the flagship rather than an old destroyer.

To make the situation on land make any sense, the 2nd Marines had to have a reason to either not carry out their amphibious landing in the first place (thereby removing a vital element from the 8th IDs drive eastward) or minimise the effectiveness of an apparently very strong formation. Removal of their fuel supply does just that while retaining the strength we see in Going Home. Perhaps Tarawa wasn't carrying the fuel reserve, perhaps it was a civilian tanker, but either way whatever vessel was carrying it has to go to the bottom. Calling it the Tarawa solves the problem we face several months later when TF34 is formed.
So I guess my question is, and why I was wondering if there was a map showing this offensive, if the 5th Div was the spearhead how did they get pushed so far south while everyone else stayed to the north, and what path did the 8th Div follow to get so far into the interior?
These are questions I grappled with when I was writing. The ONLY explanation I was able to come up with for the 8th was that the 2nd Marines provided the necessary support and amphibious capabilities to get across the numerous rivers and wetlands in northern Poland.

I would suggest reading through http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=354&highlight=German+III+corp Many of the issues have already been discussed there in some depth.
Oh, and there's a map there too! :D

[Legbreaker]

When the 4th GTA blasted the 5th Division and some Polish units rallied to fight back at the Germans, it all fell apart. The German III Corps and/or Third Army commanders felt it was some kind of trap, and acted to keep their own forces and territory from falling into it. If there were rumors of the "Red Bear" Chelkov behind it, that could certainly have reinforced it.

I'm not sure if it was mentioned in that thread or another that there's some evidence that points towards a possible Pact offensive being slated for around the same time. I think it was proposed that the Nato offensive kicked off first causing the Pact to rapidly revise their plans and instead of striking directly westward into souther Germany, push up north to cut off XI Corp. The Germans were able to back out quickly enough - the US and Canadians were already too deep into Poland.
It's the Germans who would have been responsible for providing flank protection and perhaps press south once XI Corp had a defendable line along the Vistula (or thereabouts).

As the Admiral says, potentially a war winner, but one that rapidly turned sour with the appearance of the 4th GTA and counterattack near the German/Poland border.

[Rainbow Six]

The Tarawa had to have been sunk sometime before TF34 otherwise (to me at least) it makes much more sense for it to have been the flagship rather than an old destroyer.

Leg, firstly I agree with you that the Tarawa would be a logical choice ro serve as TF34 flagship if it was available.

However, at the risk of sounding pedantic, it doesn't have to have been sunk - it just needs to have been rendered inoperable. I'd suggest it's possible that it successfully completed its mission in the Baltic, offloading whatever elements of the 2nd Division it happened to be carrying, then headed back to potentially safer waters as it was too important an asset to be kept in harm's way any longer than was absolutely neccessary. Perhaps on its way back to those safer waters, it encountered a situation that left it severely damaged (hit a mine, attacked by torpedo boats or maybe even an airstrike - if avgas were available, the chance to knock out the Tarawa would surely warrant its use?) but rather than sinking it managed to limp into a port, where it is currently stranded? Maybe it even made Bremerhaven, but was left behind when TF34 sailed?

To be honest, I'm really just thinking of scenario possibilities such as a team of PC's being sent on a mission to retrieve something that was left on the ship?

[oldschoolgm]

Thanks for linking that other forum thread, that thread has talked about a lot of specific questions that were starting to pop up for me. The map is awesome in that it gives me a good visual of how the offensive began and it's objectives.

Between what you guys have given me and what I've found on my own I now have a lot to build upon to really give my game some life when I'm ready to start it.

I'll start a new thread for my next set of ideas and questions.

Great stuff guys, thanks again.

[Legbreaker]

... it doesn't have to have been sunk - it just needs to have been rendered inoperable.

Very true, however if only damaged, I'd be inclined to locate it in an area it's resources cannot be used during Omega (or have the majority of it's useful C & C facilities destroyed).
My thoughts are that if damaged, it should be to approximately the same degree as the ship in Satellite Down (can't think of the name off hand).

[Dog 6]

Very true, however if only damaged, I'd be inclined to locate it in an area it's resources cannot be used during Omega (or have the majority of it's useful C & C facilities destroyed).
My thoughts are that if damaged, it should be to approximately the same degree as the ship in Satellite Down (can't think of the name off hand).

that's what I'd do, have it off the beach of kolobrzeg. like
i said before, you'd have to let it off load 2ndMardiv's heavy equipment before sunk. maybe have a commando raid burn it....

[pmulcahy11b]

Have it torpedoed by the Barrikada (the Soviet sub in Boomer), just to tie it in with published T2K materials.

[Blakrider]

the problem with the TARAWA is that in the baltic, it would be a bomb magnet. odds are, it is on the bottom, if it wasnt sunk in the north atlantic

bot on the more interesting side, the 2nd Marine Div wouldnt be alone. the Volksmarine had the 28th and 29th MRR trained and equipped as Naval infantry and they also had a number of LST's and other landing craft.

(found althis out whent researching a Rostock sourcebook i was creating)

[Legbreaker]

I doubt the 28th and 29th would be needed to assist the Marines once they're on the ground (the 2nd Marines are one of the largest units left in 2000), but their naval transport resources would be very useful getting them to the AO.

The Barrikada has been stuck in the ice too long I think for it to be a viable option to remove the Tarawa. Perhaps a coastal torpedo boat, or even just a mine would be enough given the lack of supporting vessels?

I can see Pact naval assets wreaking havok on the marine's transports. A few small motorboats armed with AT-4's, RPGs and whatever else they could scrounge up would be a real worry for the fleet commander.

[Rainbow Six]

Very true, however if only damaged, I'd be inclined to locate it in an area it's resources cannot be used during Omega (or have the majority of it's useful C & C facilities destroyed).
My thoughts are that if damaged, it should be to approximately the same degree as the ship in Satellite Down (can't think of the name off hand).

Agreed.

Actually, I should have looked at a map before suggesting Tarawa might have made it back to Bremerhaven, as that would have entailed going all the way around Denmark which strikes me as unlikely - it would burn more fuel and expose the ship to the risk of attack for a longer period (I'm making the assumption that Sovs would have made sure that the Kiel Canal was rendered impassable early in the War).

Whilst I like Dog6's idea of having her sit just off Kolobrzeg (and perhaps intact enough to still serve a useful purpose, possibly even serving as XI Corps HQ), it's equally possible she could have made one of the German Baltic ports such as Lubeck, Rostock, or Kiel all of which (going from memory) are garrisoned by non US NATO units. Perhaps one of those units have "requistioned" her and are working to get her operational (dependent on the extent of the damage) so they can use her for their own purposes (and making sure that the Americans think she is far more damaged than she actually is). Even if she was never able to put to sea again, I'm sure she would still be a valuable resource for the Germans or the Danes.

There's also the question of what happens to the crew. Dependent on how many actually got off (and where) I'd expect lots of them to have been drafted into various XI Corps units.

[Adm.Lee]

There's also the question of what happens to the crew. Dependent on how many actually got off (and where) I'd expect lots of them to have been drafted into various XI Corps units.

Maybe that's why the 2nd Marine Division has the high rifle strength that it now does?

[Legbreaker]

Regarding the Tarawa, if it were beached or otherwise not on the bottom, it would not be in a port in Poland - there simply aren't any not in Pact hands which are capable of taking such a large vessel (all too small, too shallow, too nuked, or a combination of the three).

The crew of the ship, once immobilised/sunk/etc would almost certainly have joined the nearest friendly unit. It's pointless for them to have stayed aboard if there was no hope (as would be the situation in 2000) of recovery and repair.
My guess is that the Captain would have ordered the ship scuttled, perhaps even drawing on the services of a nearby engineer unit to destroy it with a demolition nuke.

Chances are the ship would already be suffering damage from earlier in the war that could not be repaired with the available resources - perhaps it needed dry docking to replace a screw, plus the flight deck had some sizable weak spots from missile/bomb hits which had been patches up to the best of the crew's ability. Could even have been on the fringes of a nuclear blast with radio antenna's destroyed, electronics fried, even perhaps a little residual radioactivity in the vessel's hull (which of course the higher ups would do their damnedest to keep quite).

It's even potentially possible that the 2000 landings were considered to be a one way trip for the ship - one last throw of the dice to win the war which would secure the ability to then salvage the ship and repair it at leisure.

[LAW0306]

I have order of battle and history of II MEF in Europe from fall 96 to 00. I tried to make it as close to cannon and follow book history. You must remeber that Marines Deploy as MEU (2,600) MEB( 17,000) MEF (50,000) Personel not as Division as army units do. I will address this in histroy. It might explain why they have so Many guys in end. II Mef should have 2nd MARDIV, 2nd MAW , 2nd MLG. Hope this helps.

[Legbreaker]

It needs to be remembered in this particular case that the Marines deployed as a Division and not some other type of unit.

[Webstral]

My take on the NATO Summer 2000 offensive in Poland has been that NATO was looking to position itself as favorably as possible for the post-2000 collapse. The Summer 1998 campaign in Central Europe would have demonstrated that the Soviets weren’t ready to throw in the towel. At the same time, the destruction of the modern economies would have had the logistics types re-schooling the generals on the relationship between motorized armies and their supply needs. The 1999 campaign season was dominated by infantry action because circumstances dictated a sort of hyper-conservative attitude among the surviving generals. No doubt some of them would have liked to take offensive action for the sake of establishing more favorable positions. However, the senior military leaders, having observed that the 1998 fighting accomplished little more except massive reduction in perilously small stockpiles of fuel, ammunition, and spare parts, probably wanted to husband what they had left for some sort of decisive action.

The formations of XI Corps seem quite well equipped on the eve of the offensive. Perhaps the offensive was a year or more in the building. Various US Army units throughout Germany might have been coerced into giving up precious materiel with the idea that one last great effort in Poland would finally finish the Soviets in Europe by demonstrating that the Soviets no longer possessed the strength or cohesion to hold Eastern Europe. Certainly, reports of ongoing collapse on the part of Soviet forces in Poland would have been welcomed during the run-up to the Summer 2000 offensive.

There are some reasons for a NATO offensive along the Baltic that might not be so obvious the American military planner. The main effort of the offensive was directed along the Baltic coast. East Prussia lies here. Although the German population in this part of Europe is much less than it was prior to the end of World War Two, East Prussia is still East Prussia in the minds of many Germans. We should bear in mind that the FRG, the DDR, and western Austria were under NATO control prior to the start of the offensive. Given that modern military operations were on the verge of final disintegration, and given the fact that anyone capable of looking into the future would see that a long-term rebuilding and repositioning based on natural resources and population was in the cards, the Anglo-Americans might well have supported trying to bring as much of the surviving German population under German control as possible to counter-balance France and the remnants of Russia. At the very least, the reestablishment of the pre-World War One borders in the East would have put Germany in a better position to deal with France and Russia twenty to thirty years down the road. The English speakers might have supported such an action under the premise that Anglo-American forces no longer would be in much position to affect events in that part of Europe; therefore, best to strengthen the local allies for the long-term.

Of course, the Soviets were afraid of exactly this sort of thing, which is why they had Fourth Guards Army on stand-by in Belarus.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

That is a very valid opinion you have there Web and ties in with a lot of what I've said on the subject.
Even ignoring population demographics, coal deposits, surviving industry etc, Nato holding the Baltic coastline is a MASSIVE advantage over the Pact, both for continuing war efforts (if any) and peace, well, I can't exactly say negotiations given there's no governments left to do it.
To me, holding the Baltic coastline is the key to long term security. The sea in 2000 is an almost unassailable transportation route given the virtually non-existant aviation assets in the world, not to mention almost total lack of effective naval forces (lets face it, a freighter with a 20mm AA gun could probably fight off the best either side has to play with except on a bad day).
Given this, it's no surprise the gamble was taken, nor that the Pact practically battered itself to pieces to prevent it happening.
Spring 2000 both sides still had significant offensive capability, by autumn this was completely gone - on both sides of the fence.

[Raellus]

Here's my take on the 2nd MarDiv's role in the XI Corps summer offensive:

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2703&page=2&highlight=baltic+marines

[LAW0306]

Give me a chance here leg. Last time I presented a History and order of Battle for Marines( add to RFD source book 2007)...Frank Frey said it was now considered Cannon by him. It will make sense trust me on this. Might add a flavor that you might like.

[rcaf_777]

It's even potentially possible that the 2000 landings were considered to be a one way trip for the ship - one last throw of the dice to win the war which would secure the ability to then salvage the ship and repair it at leisure.

I have though about a group of PC's who would scout wrecks along the coast as a possiblity of expanding OP Omega, though about it as naval adventure?

[Legbreaker]

I'm not too sure ships could be salvaged in T2K - it's a hard enough job even with today's resources.
Stripping them down on the other hand for parts....
In my previous post I was thinking more long term, a year or two perhaps, or that the ship(s) in question were beached close to the necessary industrial facilities.
Basically though I'm not even convinced myself it's much of a viable idea.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've got in mind a heavily damaged CV beaching or deliberately running aground near Key West NAS due to severe damage during a brawl with Soviet and Cuban land-based ships and ASMs late in 2000. The C2s, E2s and helos can all take off and make it to KW, but the jets are either going to have to be brought over by barge someday or just left there and slowly disassembled for spares for Homestead.

The ship's salvageability (that is, how much can be removed and used ashore) will become a huge asset for Key West. Hell, if it's a nuke and the reactors are stable, run power lines.

In fact that's probably what I'll write up.

[Adm.Lee]

I've got in mind a heavily damaged CV beaching or deliberately running aground near Key West NAS due to severe damage during a brawl with Soviet and Cuban land-based ships and ASMs late in 2000. The C2s, E2s and helos can all take off and make it to KW, but the jets are either going to have to be brought over by barge someday or just left there and slowly disassembled for spares for Homestead.

The ship's salvageability (that is, how much can be removed and used ashore) will become a huge asset for Key West. Hell, if it's a nuke and the reactors are stable, run power lines.

In fact that's probably what I'll write up.

That would be huge. I was musing about a 2001 campaign in the Gulf, with a Navy center, and that would make a terrific hub for it.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

That would be huge. I was musing about a 2001 campaign in the Gulf, with a Navy center, and that would make a terrific hub for it.

If I have some free time I'll start it up tonight.

(edit: I did not, so, tomorrow perhaps)

[Abbott Shaull]

With the Marine Amphib Corps and it remains of the MEF, I am sure in the Middle East and Korea, the excess Naval Personnel who weren't need to keep what left of their Services operating would be sent to the 'local' Marine Infantry School to a point where you might see a Provisional Naval Infantry unit or two...lol

[Legbreaker]

Undoubtedly, however my thoughts are these excess naval personel would be used as replacements for existing Marine units rather than create new Naval formations. The sailors may not like it, the marines may not like it, but it makes more sense than trying to build units from scratch which don't have any experienced NCOs or Officers.

[HorseSoldier]

A lot of USN personnel would have skills that translated relatively well into logistics/support units in the USMC, which would allow Marine mechanics and such to push forward as casualty replacements. Might be initial attempts to keep things sort of discrete, but circa 2000 I'd picture the rear echelon of the Marine divisions as just being a jumble of sailors and marines filling out necessary support functions as best they can. Probably with some drafts of USN volunteers (or "volun-tolds") pushed into front line units as well as replacement riflemen or whatever really late in the war.

[Fusilier]

circa 2000 I'd picture the rear echelon of the Marine divisions as just being a jumble of sailors and marines filling out necessary support functions as best they can. Probably with some drafts of USN volunteers (or "volun-tolds") pushed into front line units as well as replacement riflemen or whatever really late in the war.

I agree, but I think not just some being pushed up as combat arms replacements, but quite a lot. With most of the true marines dead, captured, deserted, separated, etc, I can see a lot of navy guys needing to be put out on the line - earlier than 2000 too.

[James Langham]

I agree, but I think not just some being pushed up as combat arms replacements, but quite a lot. With most of the true marines dead, captured, deserted, separated, etc, I can see a lot of navy guys needing to be put out on the line - earlier than 2000 too.

Checking the American Combat Vehicle Handbook (2.0) the Cadet Brigade of USAF trainees in January 1988 (I assume this is a typo and should read 1998). It is noted that this is theoretically an Air Force unit that is under army control. This would imply that the other services are being weeded of excess personnel earlier than we thought.

[Legbreaker]

We know that in mid to late 1997 Nato was being pushed back across Europe almost in a rout. We know from a variety of sources that they suffered extensive loss of manpower and equipment during this period. We know they used scorched earth tactics as they retreated.
We also know that the "last major naval fleet in being" was destroyed in June 1997 and that air power on both sides coped an absolute hammering in the early stages of the war.
Given that and the commencement of nuclear attacks in approximately July 1997, it's certainly no surprise that naval and air personnel were transfered/reorganised into ground assets.

[Legbreaker]

What follows is the result of about 200 hours of research, organisation, reorganisation, hair pulling and culling to get down to the 4,000 men listed as of the 1st of July 2000. There's still about another 50 hours of work to go before I'm happy.

Many units were cut completely and personnel redistributed to other units. A vast number of supporting units simply disappear as they're no longer needed (no supplies coming from the US for them to deal with). Many of the marines would have to take on the responsibilities of 2 or even 3 men (or more) in the prewar organisation - good thing the 2000 version of the 2nd Marines is a mere shadow of it's former power.

It's been a real shock to see just how many men are in the background - the 2nd Force Service Support Group has an authorised strength of approximately 7,600, and they don't even get CLOSE to the front lines!

2nd MARDIV
HQ Battalion 100 men

2nd Intelligence Battalion 40 men, 1x FQM-151 Pointer UAV
Headquarters Company
Counterintelligence/Human Intelligence Company (CI/HUMINT Coy)
Production & Analysis Company
Counterintelligence Support Company

8th Communication Battalion (inc. surviving personnel from 2nd Radio Battalion) 60 men

2nd Air Naval Gunfire Liaison Coy – disbanded. Surviving personnel transferred 10th Regiment

2nd Tank Battalion 80 men, 8 M1

2nd Light Armoured Recon Battalion 152 men total
H&S Company (Striker) 1x M-1042A2 Humvee, 1x M-939 5 tonne truck, 10 men
Alpha Company (Apache) 8x LAV-25, 48 men
Bravo Company (Black Knights) 7x LAV-25, 47 men
Charlie Company (Gunfighters) 7x LAV-25, 47 men

2nd Recon Battalion 160 men
H&S Company 20, M-1042A2
Alpha Company 40
Bravo Company 40
Charlie Company 40
Force Reconnaissance Company 20, LKW Wolf IFAV, M-1044A1 Humvee

2nd Combat Engineer Battalion 200 men
Headquarters & Service Company (including surviving Chemical Biological Incident Response Force members) 40 men, M-1042A2,
Engineer Support Company 40
Alpha Company 40
Mobility Assault Company 40
Route Clearance Company 40

2nd Assault Amphibian Battalion (218 men, 40 AAVP-7A1, 2 AAVC-7A1, 2 AAVR-7A1)
Headquarters & Services Company 4+20 men, 2 AAVP-7A1
Alpha Company
HQ sec 2+14, 2xAAVC-7A1
Comms sec 7 (rides with HQ sec)
Assault amphibian general support section 13 men, 1 AAVP-7A1
Command & control section 12 men, 1 AAVP-7A1
Maintenance section 1+28 men, 2 AAVR-7A1 ARV
Assault amphibian vehicle platoons x3 1+38 men, 12 AAVP-7A1
Other companies disbanded

2nd Low Altitude Air Defence Battalion 42 men
Battalion Headquarters
HQ section 2+1, M-1042A2
Logistics section 1+3+1, 1x M1097 + trailer
1st Battery 34 men
Battery HQ 1+3, 1 M-1044A1
1 Platoon – Avenger 10
Section HQ 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 1 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 2 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 3 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 4 2 men, 1 Avenger
2 Platoon – guns 20
Section HQ 3 men, M1097, twin M61 Vulcan, mounted
Team 5 4 men, M1097, M167 VADS, towed
Team 6 3 men, M1097, 20mm FK 20-2, mounted
Team 7 4 men, M1097, M167 VADS, towed
Team 8 4 men, M1097, 23mm ZUR-23-2S Jod, towed
Team 9 2 men, M1097, twin M61 Vulcan, mounted

2nd Marine Regiment (740 men)
HQ Coy 2nd Marines 66 men, M-1042A2
1/2nd Battalion 24 Officers + 313 Enlisted =337 men
H&S Company (aka BHQ) (6+31), M-1042A2
HQ Plt (4+6)
Comms Plt (5)
Service Plt (1+9), 2x M-939 5 tonne truck
Scout Plt (8)
Medical Plt (1+3)
Alpha Company 6+94 men
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
1 Plt 1+25 men
2 Plt 1+25 men
3 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
Bravo Company
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
4 Plt 1+25 men
5 Plt 1+25 men
6 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
Charlie Company
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
7 Plt 1+25 men
8 Plt 1+25 men
9 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 HUMVEE + trailer

2/2nd Battalion (organised as 1/2 battalion)

3/2nd Battalion - Disbanded, personnel transferred to 1/2 and 2/2

6th Marine Regiment 740 (organised as 2nd Regiment)
Headquarters Company 6th Marines

1/6th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

2/6th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

3/6th Btn - Disbanded, personnel transferred to 1/6 and 2/6

8th Marine Regiment 740 (organised as 2nd Regiment)
Headquarters Company 8th Marines

1/8th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

2/8th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

3/8th Btn -Disbanded, personnel transferred to 1/8 and 2/8

10th Marine Regiment 200 men
Headquarters Battery 10th Marines 50 men, M-1042A2

1/10th Btn –100 men, M-1042A2, M-1044A1
Headquarters Battery 10 men, 2x M-1042A2
Battery A – 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck
Battery B – 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck
Battery C – 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck

5/10th Btn – 50 men
Headquarters Battery 17 men, 1 M1097, 1 Mk48 heavy truck
R Battery – 21 men 1 M110A2 203mm SP, 1 M-1050 FAASV
S Battery – 12 men 1 M109A2 155mm SP, 1 M-992A1 FAASV

2nd Force Service Support Group (FSSG)
Headquarters & Service Battalion 50 men, M-1044A1

2nd Combat Logistics Battalion 200 men
Headquarters & Support Company, M-1044A1
Engineer Company
Transportation Support Company M-939 5 tonne trucks
Military Police
Maintenance Platoon
Landing Support Platoon
Supply Platoon M-939 5 tonne trucks, 2x LMC-1500
Communications Platoon

8th Engineer Support Battalion 200 men
Headquarters and Service Company, M-1044A1
Engineering Support Company
A Company
B Company
C Company
Bulk Fuel Company
Bridge Company
2nd Explosive Ordnance Disposal Company

2nd Maintenance Battalion 68 men, 1 M-88A1 Hercules
Headquarters & Service Company, M-1044A1
Electronic Maintenance Company
Engineer Maintenance Company
General Support Maintenance Company
Ordnance Maintenance Company
Motor Transportation Maintenance Company

2nd Medical Battalion 100 men
Headquarters and Service Company 30
Alpha – Surgical 60, 2x MK48 heavy truck, 1x M-997 Ambulance, 2x M-997A2 ambulance
Bravo – Dental 10

2nd Supply Battalion (located at Kiel, Germany) – not included in 2nd MARDIV numbers
Specializes in distributing & warehousing military goods & equipment
Headquarters and Service Company
Ammunition Company
Supply Company
Medical Logistics Company

[Graebarde]

<Scratches head>
The 6th Marines were in NORWAY until when? And the 8th Marines were in the Med until when? Would 2 MarDiv be more than a Regimental Combat Team? This is not to say your OOB isn't good, it just got me to wondering how those forces got to Poland. Perhaps the 8th, the the 6th would still be tied up in Norway.

[Legbreaker]

The 2nd reformed in northern Germany in January 1998. There's no indication they were involved in any significant actions from then until Spring 2000 (which doesn't say they weren't of course).

My thoughts are in around late April, early May 2000, the 2nd moved to Kiel and embarked on transports to take them to their landings across the Wisla delta. At a guess the sea journey wouldn't have taken a day, the actual landing about three or four days (due to a shortage of landing vessels), and overland movement and securing of initial objectives another day or two.

Landing at Stegna, primary objectives might be the village & bridges at Rybina (and eventual location of DIVHQ and supporting units), Wisla river crossing at Dworek, the town & bridges at Nowy Dwor, and bridge at Jazowa.
Secondary objectives (to provide an alternate route for the 8th ID and following units) would be the bridge over Leniwka at the west end of Sobieszewo Island (east of Gdansk), the ferry at Sobieszewo (east of Gdansk), and the lock at the south eastern end of the island. Elbag might be taken a few days later depending on the overall situation while the remainder of the division digs in and sends out patrols against the expected Pact reaction.

[Adm.Lee]

The 2nd reformed in northern Germany in January 1998. There's no indication they were involved in any significant actions from then until Spring 2000 (which doesn't say they weren't of course).

I think we discussed this a little in the last year. I suspect the division, now unified, was kept as an uncommitted reserve during the Soviet '98 offensive, or perhaps used as a raiding force on the Baltic, and/or as an amphibious decoy to threaten the Baltic coast.

[Webstral]

That's a lot of work and a lot of attention to detail, Leg. I wish I had the time to study you ORBAT in detail and give proper feedback, but I don't even have time for my own work right now. Thanks for keeping the creative light lit!

[Rainbow Six]

Leg, I enjoyed reading your orbat and it sounds plausible enough to me - well done.

<Scratches head>
The 6th Marines were in NORWAY until when? And the 8th Marines were in the Med until when? Would 2 MarDiv be more than a Regimental Combat Team? This is not to say your OOB isn't good, it just got me to wondering how those forces got to Poland. Perhaps the 8th, the the 6th would still be tied up in Norway.

There's a relatively detailed timeline for Norway in the Boomer module (although it does have a big gap from the end of 1997 to autumn of 2000). It states that most NATO forces were withdrawn from Norway at some unspecified time after the end of 1997, and by the end of 2000 the only non Norwegian NATO forces in the country were British and Canadian.

[Legbreaker]

I think we discussed this a little in the last year. I suspect the division, now unified, was kept as an uncommitted reserve during the Soviet '98 offensive, or perhaps used as a raiding force on the Baltic, and/or as an amphibious decoy to threaten the Baltic coast.
I tend to agree and it makes sense. From memory, the only real action in 98-99 was down towards the south of Germany so the Marines plus most other units in the north make for a good reserve/occupation/defence force.
With the northern units basically sitting it out for a while, it's plausible the units in the south aren't in as strong a position having had less "free" time to reorganise and tend to maintenance and food production.

That's a lot of work and a lot of attention to detail, Leg.Leg, I enjoyed reading your orbat and it sounds plausible enough to me - well done.
Thanks! I'm fairly happy with the numbers now (although it's subject to tweaking as more facts appear). The next step is filling out vehicles and heavy weapons.
It states that most NATO forces were withdrawn from Norway at some unspecified time after the end of 1997, and by the end of 2000 the only non Norwegian NATO forces in the country were British and Canadian.
With 7 nationalities included in the 2nd Marines as of October 2000, I'm guessing a few Norwegians and Danes may have either come back with the Marines, or been included in their 2000 landings to fill out specialist shortfalls.
It's hard to justify British, Czechs, Romanians, etc in their numbers, and near impossible for French, Dutch, Italians, Greeks and Turks. Logically only Germans, Americans and Canadians could readily be absorbed, although Poles and Russians and maybe Ukrainians may have a presence (in limited numbers due to security and trust issues).

[Rainbow Six]

With 7 nationalities included in the 2nd Marines as of October 2000, I'm guessing a few Norwegians and Danes may have either come back with the Marines, or been included in their 2000 landings to fill out specialist shortfalls.

It's hard to justify British, Czechs, Romanians, etc in their numbers, and near impossible for French, Dutch, Italians, Greeks and Turks. Logically only Germans, Americans and Canadians could readily be absorbed, although Poles and Russians and maybe Ukrainians may have a presence (in limited numbers due to security and trust issues).

It's not impossible that a small number of British troops - either Royal Marines from 3 Commando Brigade (which I think has a different title in the books), or soldiers from the Parachute Regiment or the Royal Green Jackets could have found themselves attached to the US Marines whilst in Norway and never returned to UK command. It's probably more of a stretch for the Dutch, but still not impossible - IRL Dutch Marines would have been attached to 3 Commando Brigade for operations in Norway (I'm at work so don't have any books handy to confirm if that happened in T2K).

[Legbreaker]

While the British may have been with the marines in Norway, the marines have been in Germany for a couple of years by 2000. Chances are those Brits would have been reclaimed.
The Dutch never got out of Germany (Dutch government only stayed in Nato as long as their troops weren't sent into the offensive) before France moved in and the Dutch all went home.
Due to the strategic importance of the marine component of the offensive, I'm of the opinion the various Nato allies would have been requested to provide amphibious trained troops to form small platoon sized units within the 2nd Marine structure.

[Rainbow Six]

Due to the strategic importance of the marine component of the offensive, I'm of the opinion the various Nato allies would have been requested to provide amphibious trained troops to form small platoon sized units within the 2nd Marine structure.

Yeah, makes sense, that's actually why I think there is a case to be made made for at least some Royal Marines to have stayed with the US Marines even after they moved to Germany and the option was there to bring them back under national command - it would be a way of keeping all amphibious trained troops together under a single command structure and provides the 2nd Dvn with experienced replacements for its losses so I definitely think there might be a few Royal Marines serving with the 2nd Marine Division in the summer of 2000.

[Legbreaker]

I'd think that they'd definitely been reclaimed in '98 but seconded back to the 2nd Marines during the organisational stages of the 2000 offensive. Makes no sense for them to stay with the US when nobody could possibly have any idea of the situation to occur later.

[LAW0306]

Sorry Leg you just spent two years getting alot of things wrong. you have units that would not even be in a division in one. you told me two years ago they only deployed as a division yet you have Combat logistic units and Marine air wing units in your order of battle. I'm sorry you wasted your time and now conterdict yourself.

[LAW0306]

you also use iraq war task force names like route clearance and mobile assault in 2nd CEB. They were only for Iraq war to make them fight as infantry to fall under foce caps.

[Legbreaker]

Oh dear.....

Once again Law you're overlooking an important fact. This is a game, it's set several YEARS after nukes and warfare wipe out real life organisations.

What is in the "real world" simply does not apply, especially since there's just 4000 people to fill in positions for which approximately four times that number are supposedly required.

I think I'll be ignoring your comments. Again. They're just not relevant to the situation.

[LAW0306]

you can ignore all you want but you stated that only 2nd Marine division was in europe . Right? well you have units from MEF, The WIng and the MLG Present. How did they get there? did they come by themselfs to europe? please enlighten me.

[LAW0306]

oh i forgot god bless you leg.

[LAW0306]

one last thing leg. We make SPMAGTF all the time and have plans to get bigger and smaller a war would not change this . its called doctrine. you just messed up. its cool we all do it. just take some advice and be better now that you have it.

[Legbreaker]

I've just about finished fleshing things out and did a quick calculation on the fuel requirements - it's scary! With every vehicle capable of carrying a medium still, or a trailer with one on it (about 80 stills) it will take a full month just to top off the fuel tanks!
One full load of ethanol in each vehicle gives just 3 hours of activity for the division. Naturally the tanks and other heavier vehicles are unlikely to move much after taking up position, but even so, it's likely to take a day or two to get everyone settled.
That's something like 200,000 litres of ethanol needed just to land and take the initial objectives!

2nd MARDIV
HQ Battalion, 100 men, 2x M-1042A2, 2x M-1044A1, 3x M-35A3

2nd Intelligence Battalion 40 men, 1x FQM-151 Pointer UAV, 4x M-1042A2, 2x M-1044A1
Headquarters Company (HQ Coy)
Counterintelligence/Human Intelligence Company (CI/HUMINT Coy)
Production & Analysis Company (P&A Coy)
Counterintelligence Support Company (CIS Coy)

8th Communication Battalion 60 men, 5x M-1042A2

2nd Tank Battalion 100 men, 8x M1, 3x FV-101 Scorpion-90 (Diesel)

2nd Light Armoured Recon Battalion 104 men total
H&S Company (Striker), 2x LAV-LOG, 16 men
Alpha Company (Apache) 8x LAV-25A1, 24 men
Bravo Company (Black Knights) 7x LAV-25A1, 21 men
Charlie Company (Gunfighters) 7x LAV-25A1, 21 men
Delta Company, 2x LAV-600 (105mm gun), 2x M-17 LAV-AT, 3x LAV-MA1 mortar carrier, 1x LAV-AD II, 27 men

2nd Recon Battalion 158 men
H&S Company 18, 1x M-1042A2, 1x M-35A3
Alpha Company 40
Bravo Company 40
Charlie Company 40
Force Reconnaissance Company, 20 men, 2x LKW Wolf IFAV, 2x M-1044A1

2nd Combat Engineer Battalion 200 men
Headquarters & Service Company, M-1042A2, 40 men
Engineer Support Company 40, 2 M-35A3
Alpha Company 40, 1x M-35A3
Bravo Company 40, 1x M-35A3
Route Clearance Company 40, 1x M-939 5 tonne truck, 1x M-58A3 MICLIC (Mine-Clearing Line Charge) trailer

2nd Assault Amphibian Battalion (218 men, 40 AAVP-7A1, 2 AAVC-7A1, 2 AAVR-7A1)
Headquarters & Services Company 4+20 men, 2 AAVP-7A1
Alpha Company (2+16+7+13+12+1+28+3x(1+38)=196
HQ sec 2+14, 2xAAVC-7A1
Comms sec 7 (rides with HQ sec)
Assault amphibian general support section 13 men, 1 AAVP-7A1
Command and control section 12 men, 1 AAVP-7A1
Maintenance section 1+28 men, 2 AAVR-7A1 ARV
Assault amphibian vehicle platoons x3 1+38 men, 12 AAVP-7A1

2nd Low Altitude Air Defence Battalion 42 men
Battalion Headquarters 2+4+1=7
HQ section 2+1, 1x M-1042A2
Logistics section 1+3+1, 1x M1097 + trailer
1st Battery 34 men
Battery HQ 1+3, 1 M-1044A1
1 Platoon – Avenger 10
Section HQ 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 1 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 2 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 3 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 4 2 men, 1 Avenger
2 Platoon – guns 20
Section HQ 3 men, M1097, twin M61 Vulcan, mounted
Team 6 4 men, M1097, M167 VADS, towed
Team 7 3 men, M1097, 20mm FK 20-2, mounted
Team 8 4 men, M1097, M167 VADS, towed
Team 9 4 men, M1097, 23mm ZUR-23-2S Jod, towed
Team 10 2 men, M1097, twin M61 Vulcan, mounted

2nd Marine Regiment (740 men)
HQ Coy 2nd Marines 66 men, 3x M-1042A2, 1x M-35A3
1/2nd Battalion 24 Officers + 313 Enlisted =337 men
H&S Company (aka BHQ) (6+31), 1x M-1042A2
HQ Plt (4+6)
Comms Plt (5)
Service Plt (1+9), 2x M-939 5 tonne truck, 2x M-332 ammo trailers
Scout Plt (8)
Medical Plt (1+3)
Alpha Company 6+94 men
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 M-1044A1 + trailer
1 Plt 1+25 men
2 Plt 1+25 men
3 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 M-1044A1 + trailer
Bravo Company
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 M-1044A1 + trailer
4 Plt 1+25 men
5 Plt 1+25 men
6 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 M-1044A1 + trailer
Charlie Company
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 M-1044A1 + trailer
7 Plt 1+25 men
8 Plt 1+25 men
9 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 M-1044A1 + trailer
2/2nd Battalion
Headquarters & Services Company
Easy Company
Fox Company
Golf Company
Weapons Company
3/2nd Battalion - Disbanded

6th Marine Regiment 740
Headquarters Company 6th Marines
1/6th Btn
Headquarters and Services Company – "Hawkeye"
Alpha Company – "Apache"
Bravo Company – "Black Foot or Black Iron"
Charlie Company – "Cold Steel"
Weapons Company – "Warrior"
2/6th Btn
Headquarters and Services Company (96th)
Echo Company (78th)
Foxtrot Company (79th)
Golf Company (80th)
Weapons Company (73rd)
3/6th Btn - Disbanded

8th Marine Regiment 740
Headquarters Company 8th Marines
1/8th Btn
Headquarters Company
Alpha Company
Bravo Company
Charlie Company
Weapons Company
2/8th Btn
Headquarters Company
Echo Company
Fox Company
Golf Company
Weapons Company
3/8th Btn -Disbanded

10th Marine Regiment (202 men)
Headquarters Battery 10th Marines 50 men, 2x M-1042A2, 2x MK 48/14 heavy truck
1/10th Btn (102 men)
Headquarters Battery 12 men, 2x M-1042A2
Battery A – 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck
Battery B – 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck
Battery C – 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck
5/10th Btn (50 men)
Headquarters Battery 17 men, 1 M1097, 1 Mk48/14 heavy truck
R Battery – 21 men 1 M110A2 203mm SP, 1 M-1050 FAASV
S Battery – 12 men 1 M109A2 155mm SP, 1 M-992A1 FAASV

2nd Force Service Support Group (FSSG)
Headquarters & Service Battalion 50 men, 3x M-1044A1

2nd Combat Logistics & Engineer Battalion 300 men
Headquarters & Support Company (130)
HQ Platoon, 15 men, 3x M-1044A1
Military Police, 10 men, 5x M1114 armoured Humvee
Landing Support Platoon, 30 men
Supply Platoon 60 men, 10x M-939 5 tonne trucks, 2x LMC-1500, 2 MK 48/14 heavy truck, 2x M-107 water trailer, 10x M-105 trailer
Communications platoon, 15 men, 1x M-35A3
Transportation Support Company, 30 men, 15x M-939 5 tonne trucks
Engineering Support Company (80)
HQ Platoon, 20 men, 2x M-35A3
1 Platoon, 20 men, 1x D7G bulldozer w/ripper, 1x 1155 bucket loader, 1x M9 ACE, 1x M-54 dumper
2 Platoon, 20 men, 1x 1150 angle-blade bulldozer, 1x backhoe loader, 1x M-54 dumper, 260 CFM compressor (trailer)
3 Platoon, 20 men, 1x D7G bulldozer w/winch, 1x backhoe loader, 1x M-54 dumper
Bulk Fuel Company, 30 men, 3x M-939 tanker, 5x Rubber Fuel Bladders, NATO 9,460L
Bridge Company, 30 men, 1x M-60 AVLB, 5x M-809 bridge transporters, M9 ACE, 2x M-35A3

2nd Maintenance Battalion 101 men, 1x M-88A1 Hercules, 1x LAV ARRV, 1x MK 48/15
Headquarters & Service Company, 16 men, 2x M-1044A1
Electronic Maintenance Company, 8 men, 1x M-35A3
Engineer Maintenance Company, 15 men, 3x M-35A3
General Support Maintenance Company, 14 men, 2x M-35A3
Ordnance Maintenance Company, 18 men, 3x M-35A3
Motor Transportation Maintenance Company, 30 men 1x M-1070 HET, 1x M-1000 HET trailer, 3x M-35A3 mobile workshop

2nd Medical Battalion 100 men
Headquarters & Service Company, 30 men, 1x M-1044A1, 1x M-35A3, 1x M-105 trailer
Alpha – Surgical, 60 men, 1x M-997 Ambulance, 2x M-997A2 ambulance, MK48/17 heavy truck, 1x M-107 water trailer
Bravo – Dental, 10 men, 1x M-35A3

2nd Supply Battalion (located at Kiel, Germany) – not included in 2nd MARDIV numbers (Specializes in distributing & warehousing military goods & equipment)
Headquarters and Service Company
Ammunition Company
Supply Company
Medical Logistics Company

[Legbreaker]

The next stage of this project is to flesh out the details of the initial landing, movement to their presumed objectives, digging in and holding, and then withdrawing westwards to rejoin the XI Corps.

Anyone got any elements/ideas they'd like included? Can't promise anything, but if it fits, I'll see what I can do.

At this stage my notes consist of what's in the books, and my idea of the main landing being in the vicinity of Stegna with perhaps one regiment landing directly on Sobieszewo Island (west of the main Vistula mouth). Primary objectives of Village & bridges at Rybina, Vistula river crossing at Dworek, Town & bridges at Nowy Dwor and Bridge at Jazowa.
Secondary objectives being the bridge over Leniwka at west end of Sobieszewo Island, ferry crossing at across the Vistula from Sobieszewo island and the lock at the south eastern end of the island.
Approximately one battalion of infantry would be responsible for securing and patrolling from each of the bridges (except Rybina where the 2nd Marine HQ and support units would be located) and the lock.
Once those crossings where secure, the recon units, engineers, and possibly tanks could take Elblag, potentially with the assistance of the newly arrived 8th ID.
One artillery battery of 1/10th Battalion would be dedicated to support each infantry regiment, with the SPA of 5/10th Battalion assigned to support the attack on Elblag/or as required. 2nd Low Altitude Air Defence Battalion would be split up amongst the units to provide a small measure of AA defence beyond that integral to the supported units (tank commanders machineguns for example).

The Marines would be transported to the landing area by the USS Tarawa plus a collection of roughly half a dozen other ships scrounged from Nato sources - most would be civilian in origin, probably ex ro-ro ferries. Air assets consist of one Osprey (as per the plate in the 2.2 Naval & Aviation book) and perhaps a very limited number of other rotary aircraft severely restricted by a critical shortage of fuel (enough for maybe 20 hours flight time between them TOTAL!). Air cushion vehicles would not be involved because of their rapacious appetite for fuel - any which had survived this long into the war would have been left back in Germany.

Anyway, that's where I'm at so far.

[robert.munsey]

Just wanted to post the notes and unit data from the 1988/89 NATO OOB (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.microarmormayhem.com/NATO_ORDER_OF_BATTLE_mod_8.doc&ved=2ahUKEwip9d2I-PTZAhUIcq0KHfA7DCQQFjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw08ewNGUD-lNaKeLRMBWzEe) for the USMC;

Iwill note that this would be the start point for building the OOB for the '2nd MARDIV' for the Baltic campaign.

NATO OOB;
d. II Marine Expeditionary Force (MAGTF/CE)
1) 4th Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MAGTF/CE), Amphibious, associated with Amphibious Group 2
2) 6th Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MAGTF/CE), MPF, associated with MPS Squadron 1
3) 2nd Marine Division (Designated GCE for II MEF)
a) HQ Battalion
b) 2nd Marine Regiment (Designated GCE for 4th MEB)
i) HQ Company: 24 TOW (AT-platoon), 258 men
ii) 2nd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment: 905 men
iii) 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment: 905 men
c) 6th Marine Regiment (Designated GCE for 6th MEB)
i) HQ Company: 24 TOW (AT-platoon), 258 men
ii) 1st Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment: 905 men
d) 8th Marine Regiment (With Responsibility of sourcing 6th Fleet MEU)
i) HQ Company: 24 TOW (AT-platoon), 258 men
ii) 1st Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment: 1103 men
iii) 2nd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment: 1103 men
iv) 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment: 1103 men
e) 10th Marine Regiment (including 48 M101A1 for contingency purposes )
i) HQ Battery, 359 men
ii) 1st Battalion, 10th Marine Regiment: 16 M198, 8 M114A1, 751 men (Direct Support for RLT 2)
iii) 2nd Battalion, 10th Marine Regiment: 16 M198, 8 M114A1 (Direct Support for RLT 6)
iv) 3rd Battalion, 10th Marine Regiment: 16 M198, 8 M114A1, 751 men (Direct Support for RLT 8)
v) 5th Battalion, 10th Marine Regiment: 12 M109A3, 12 M110A2, 709 men (General Support)
f) 2nd Tank Battalion
i) HQ and Service Company: 2 M60A1, 1 M88A1, 320 men
ii) AT (TOW) Company: 72 TOW HMMWV, 246 men
iii) 4 Tank Companies: 17 M60A1, 1 M88A1, 105 men each
g) 2nd Light Armored Infantry Battalion
i) HQ and Service Company: 4 LAV-25, 8 LAV-C2, 16 LAV-L, 2 LAV-R
ii) Weapons Company: 10 LAV-25, 16 LAV-AT, 8 LAV-M, 1 LAV-R
iii) 3 Light Armored Infantry Companies: 14 LAV-25, 1 LAV-R, 56 scouts each
h) 2nd Reconnaissance Battalion
i) HQ and Service Company: 102 men
ii) 3 Reconnaissance Companies: 79 men each (12 teams of 4 men each)
i) 2nd Assault Amphibian Battalion
i) HQ and Service Company: 15 AAVP-7, 3 AAVC-7, 2 AAVR-7, 237 men
ii) 4 Assault Amphibian Companies: 43 AAVP-7, 3 AAVC-3, 1 AAVR-7, 226 men each
j) 2nd Combat Engineer Battalion
i) HQ and Service Company: 143 men
ii) Engineer Support Company: 259 men
iii) 4 Combat Engineer Companies (1 in cadre status): 114 men each
4) 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing (Designated ACE for II MEF)
a) Marine Wing Headquarters Squadron-2
b) Marine Air Control Group 28 – Cherry Point, NC
i) 3rd Light Antiaircraft Missile Battalion: 18 I-Hawk, 751 men
ii) 2nd Low Altitude Air Defense Battalion: 90 Stinger, 377 men
c) Marine Air Group 14 – Cherry Point, NC (Designated F/W host MAG for 4th MEB ACE)
i) VMGR-252 “Otis”: 8 KC-130F, 4 KC-130R
ii) VMAQ-2(-) “Panthers”: 18 (of 19 authorized) EA-6B
iii) VMA(AW)-332 “Polka Dots”: 10 A-6E
iv) VMA(AW)-533 “Hawks”: 10 A-6E
v) VMGR-252 “Otis”: 4 (of 12 authorized) KC-130R, 9 KC-130F
vi) VMGRT-253 “Titans”: 6 KC-130F
d) Marine Air Group 26 – New River, NC (Designated R/W host MAG for 6th MEB ACE)
i) HMM-261(C) “Raging Bulls”: 12 CH-46E
ii) HMM-264 “Black Knights”: 12 CH-46E
iii) HMM-266 “Fighting Griffons”: 12 CH-46E
iv) HMH-362 “Ugly Angles”: 18 CH-53D
v) HMH-461 “Sea Stallions”: 12 (of 16 authorized) CH-53E, 4 CH-53D
vi) HMLA-167 “Warriors”: 13 AH-1T, 11 (of 12 authorized) UH-1N
vii) HMT-204 “Raptors”: 10 CH-46E
e) Marine Air Group 29 – New River, NC (Designated R/W host MAG for 4th MEB)
i) VMO-1(-): 8 OV-10A, 5 (of 14 authorized) OV-10D
ii) HMM-263 “Thunder Eagles”: 12 CH-46E
iii) HMM-365 “Blue Knights”: 12 CH-46E
iv) HMH-464(-) “Condors”: 12 CH-53E
v) HMLA-269(-) “Gunrunners”: 12 (+2 detached) AH-1T, 3 (+9 detached) UH-1N
f) Marine Air Group 31 – Beaufort, SC (Designated F/W host MAG for 6th MEB ACE)
i) VMFA-115 “Silver Eagles”: 12 F/A-18
ii) VMFA-122 “Crusaders”: 12 F/A-18
iii) VMFA-251 “Thunderbolts”: 12 F/A-18 (converted 86)
iv) VMFA-312 “Checkertails”: 12 F/A-18 (converted 86)
v) VMFA-451 “Warlords”: 12 F/A-18 (converted from F-4S in 87)
g) Marine Air Group 32 – Cherry Point, NC
i) VMA-223 “Bulldogs”: 20 AV-8B
ii) VMA-231 “Ace of Spades”: 20 AV-8B
iii) VMA-331 “Bumblebees”: 20 AV-8B
iv) VMA-542 “Flying Tigers”: 20 AV-8B
v) VMAT-203 “Hawks”: 16 AV-8B, 10 TAV-8B

Note 1: The infantry battalions have rifle companies, a HQ and service company, including a reconnaissance platoon in HMMWV, a weapons company with a heavy machine gun (6 .50-cal M2), a grenade launcher (40mm Mk19), a antitank (24 Dragon ATGM) and a mortar (8 81mm M252) platoon. The rifle companies are organized in three rifle platoons and a weapons platoon with 6 M60E3 machine guns, 6 83mm Mk153 SMAW and 3 60mm M224 mortars. In 1988/89 three infantry battalions were placed in cadre (3/4, 2/1, 2/6) and a fourth rifle company was added to the structure of the eight infantry battalions assigned to the MEU(SOC) rotation. There were plans to have a Reserve rifle company affiliate to fill out the four company battalion structure for the 16 remaining active duty infantry battalions.

Note 2: Battalions, companies and squadrons rotate for 6-month periods to MEU(SOC) deployments and to Okinawa, under the Unit Deployment Program (UDP).

Note 3: The Tank Battalions were the controlling headquarters for the TOW vehicles, but the ATGMs would have generally been farmed out to other commands and not used en masse. The Tank Battalion had 3 “platoons” of TOWs, each with 24 launchers.

Note 4: The peacetime organization and garrrison distribution of the Marine Corps units does not reflect the wartime organization. Marine formations deploy as integrated Marine Air-Ground Task Forces (MAGTFs) of various sizes: Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) commanded by a colonel, Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB) commanded by a brigadier or major general, and Marine Expeditionary Force (MEF) commanded by a lieutenant general. Each has a Command Element (CE), a Ground Combat Element (GCE), an Aviation Combat Element (ACE), and Combat Service Support Element (CSSE, not shown).

Note 5: A Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) is the smallest of the three Marine air/ground task forces. MEUs are made up of about 1,900 Marines and are transported on three to five amphibious ships. They have weapons, helicopters, and AV-8B attack jets, but no fighter aircraft. In contrast to the larger task forces, MEUs are deployed routinely in peacetime. Two MEUs are always forward deployed: one in the Mediterranean and one in the Western Pacific or Indian Ocean. These units form, train, deploy, and then disband to ensure rotations of people and equipment about every six months.

Note 6: The Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB) is a MAGTF built around a reinforced infantry regiment and an aircraft group composed by both fixed and rotary wing aircraft. Notionally, there were nine MEBs in the active force structure, although only six MEB headquarters were permanently staffed in peacetime. During a war in Europe, the Marines would send a brigade to Norway and thirty days of supplies and the equipment for one MEB are located in central Norway. The MEB deploys with 30 days of accompanying supplies and is capable of conducting combat operations of limited scope. The Amphibious MEB embarks aboard Naval ships to destinations throughout the world, where it can make an amphibous assault, take a beachhead and open a lane to project offensive combat power ashore. An Amphibious MEB would deploy aboard Naval vessels with more than 4,000 Marines. About 20 amphibious ships would be required to transport a brigade. An Maritime Prepositioning Force MEB can be much larger, and project offensive combat power throughout its theater of operation. An MPF MEB would deploy to a theater where it would offload the required equipment from an MPF ship. Because this is a land-based force, it can be much larger than an amphibious MEB, bringing more than 16,000 Marines and Sailors to the theater of operation quickly. One MEB per MEF is required to be ready for embarkation within four days of notification.

Note 7: A Marine Expeditionary Force (MEF) consists of about 50,000 Marines. It also has a substantial number of weapons including tanks, light armored vehicles, howitzers, helicopters, and fighter and attack aircraft. About 55 amphibious ships would be required to transport a
MEF. The size and composition of a deployed MEF can vary greatly depending on the requirements of the mission. It can deploy with not only its own units but also units from the other standing MEFs, the Marine Corps Reserve, or the other Services and the Special Operations Command. A MEF typically deploys by echelon with 60 days of sustainment. The MEF is required to be ready for embarkation within ten days of notification.

Note 8: Marine Corps and Navy planners divide MEFs and MEBs into three parts or echelons. The assault echelon (AE) comprises the troops and equipment that would be needed to sustain the task force for an amphibious landing and the first 15 days of combat. It consists of about two-thirds of all troops in the task force and about half of all vehicles, but only one-quarter of needed cargo. The assault follow-on echelon (AFOE) and the fly-in echelon (FIE) carry enough supplies to support the task force for an additional 15 to 45 days, after which the landing force would require further reinforcement.

Note 9: The most likely role of the Marine Corps Reserve upon mobilization will be to augment or reinforce an active duty MEF. "Augmentation" refers to filling the unmanned structure of a MEF while "reinforcement" adds additional capabiltties to a MEF. The remainder of 4th Marine Division and 4th Marine Air Wing could be mobilized to field a Marine Expeditionary Brigade to
reinforce a MEF or to provide a nucleus to reconstitute a division and airwing. If augmentation or reinforcement is not ordered, the Reserves could be used to field a division and a wing with reduced capability.

Note 10: Each active-duty Marine Division previously had five artillery battalions: three direct support with M198s, one General Support with M198s and one mixed mechanized artillery battalion. In 1987-1989, however, the M198 General Support battalions were transferred to the Reserves.

Note 11: Marine Fixed Wing Aircraft Holdings (some deliveries ongoing): 120 F-18A, 20 F-18B, 36 F-18C, 10 F-18D, 134 AV-8B (plus 5 in storage), 7 TAV-8B, 21 RF-4B, 98 A-4M, 15 OA-4M, 9 TA-4F, 54 A-6E, 4 EA-6A, 18 EA-6B, 36 OV-10/A/D, 13 F-21, 42 KC-130 (Flight International reports 50+ F-4S, 25+ RF-4B, 20+ A-4E/F, 130+ A-4M/OA-4M, 20+ TA-4F, 75+ A-6E, 6 EA-6A, 12 EA-6B, 64+ OV-10A/D)

Note 12: Marine Rotary Wing Aircraft Holdings (some deliveries ongoing): 84 AH-1J/T/W, 80 UH-1N, 206 CH-46E, 94 CH-53A/D, 76 CH-53E (Flight International reports 165+ AH-1J/T/W (deliveries ongoing), 50+ CH-53A, 85 CH-53D, 98 CH-53E (deliveries ongoing), 300+ CH-46E (may also include CH-46F, other models), 92+ UH-1N, 40+ UH-1E)

Note 13: Marine Equipment Holdings: 716 M60A1, 416 LAV-25, 96 LAV-AT, ~190 other LAV variants, 1,323 AAVP-7A1 (may include command and recovery variants), 54 AAVP-7R recovery vehicles, 143 M109A3, 108 M110A2, 335 155mm M101A1, 468 155mm M198, 438 81mm mortars, 1,117 TOW (generally HMMWV mounted), 1,700 Dragon, 1,929 SMAW, Redeye, Stinger, IHAWK

[robert.munsey]

I made the post and then thought other might take it the wrong way, so first off I was just placing data so the great work accomplished by others could use this as a frame to update their work,
Second others could come up with reasons or concepts of what happened to all of the men and women of the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing (the ACE of the IIMEF). Just me I would surmised that a lot of the ground crews became the fillers for the 6th REGT when it came out of Norway (IIRC) and the 8th REGT.
You have to hand it to Leg for creating the 2MARDIV OOB, he did an pretty good job. I would say that certain units would not be 'dsibanded', but reduced. certainly Isuspect that the 2/4 Marine would still be around in some fashion still serving with the 8th REGT.

I was really posting this to assist with OOB refinement. (We are about to start a game and I researching a character....)

[rcaf_777]

The Marines would be transported to the landing area by the USS Tarawa plus a collection of roughly half a dozen other ships scrounged from NATO sources - most would be civilian in origin, probably ex ro-ro ferries.

Would you need the USS Tarawa? Looking on the map you will see a great German seaport near the polish coast that you could use Peenemünde, the birthplace of the V-2 Rocket. The Germans and the US would then be able to conduct the whole landing using LCM or LCU's and maybe a few ro-ro ferries. Most landing craft and other small craft could be brought in using the Kiel Canal to transit from one side of Germany to the other and then down the coast.

You can also use this same method for troops leaving Poland for Germany during Omega. Szczecin is NATO in hands in 2000 so it could serve as evacuation assembly area.

[robert.munsey]

Would you need the USS Tarawa? Looking on the map you will see a great German seaport near the polish coast that you could use Peenemünde, the birthplace of the V-2 Rocket. The Germans and the US would then be able to conduct the whole landing using LCM or LCU's and maybe a few ro-ro ferries. Most landing craft and other small craft could be brought in using the Kiel Canal to transit from one side of Germany to the other and then down the coast.

I am not to sure that the LCM would have the range or it would be a one way ticket (190 nautical mile range), the LCU, yes, but would they have any or enough? Lets say they do (German and US or others) and then add the RO-RO ferries. The civilian ships would be the ticket and allow for this, if you could convince the Captains that they would be reimbursed for such a voyage and insured against loss. Lets say NATO accomplished that (It happened in the cannon, so they must have). You would need enough ships to transport 4200 Marines and others to includes the 8 tanks, 'X' amount of AAV, LAVs, arty and trucks. A single RO-RO ferry could transport that, the 4200 Marines, or at least 4000 you would need many smaller ships as one big ship would be a big target for one missile (such as a SCUD or half a launcher of 220mm rockets). I would venture that they did 'persuade' the Captains of these vessels (most likely through the greed of the Captains - promise of future traffic, fuel, food, etc - all of the above) to get the Northern Flank or the 26th MEU there.


You can also use this same method for troops leaving Poland for Germany during Omega. Szczecin is NATO in hands in 2000 so it could serve as evacuation assembly area.
I would say yes, except the price would be very high if there was any threat to the ships, like for instance, a SCUD came crashing down on the USS TARAWA or the large RO-RO with all of the vehicles during the landing. That would be incentive for the smaller ship Captains to stay away/
However
lets say that it was something not so drastic, something simple as improper trained crew and the RO-RO rolls over during the final landing stages, as they off loaded the RO-RO improperly (it happens) and it rolled over in the bay with the Marines and Germans looking at it thinking;
"Okay, No what, that was our meal and fuel ticket. Now what?"
Hence the start of the USMC version of the 'Good Luck you are on your own adventure.....

[robert.munsey]

I would say yes, except the price would be very high if there was any threat to the ships, like for instance, a SCUD came crashing down on the USS TARAWA or the large RO-RO with all of the vehicles during the landing. That would be incentive for the smaller ship Captains to stay away/
However
lets say that it was something not so drastic, something simple as improper trained crew and the RO-RO rolls over during the final landing stages, as they off loaded the RO-RO improperly (it happens) and it rolled over in the bay with the Marines and Germans looking at it thinking;
"Okay, No what, that was our meal and fuel ticket. Now what?"
Hence the start of the USMC version of the 'Good Luck you are on your own adventure.....

I would use something like the Zeebrugge ferry disaster as inspiration for the Ro-Ro ferry roll over to paint the story for the players.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4283156/Survivors-relive-Zeebrugge-ferry-disaster-30-years-later.html

[rcaf_777]

I am not to sure that the LCM would have the range or it would be a one way ticket (190 nautical mile range), the LCU, yes, but would they have any or enough?

It only a 70 nautical mile trip from the east German coast to Polish Coast at Kołobrzeg. Given the location of 2nd Marine Division at Bialogard, Poland landing by LCM/LCU there makes sense. Both the US Navy and US Army have landing craft that could make the 70 nautical mile trip and return safely.

if you could convince the Captains that they would be reimbursed for such a voyage and insured against loss

What a civilian Captain to do when a bunch of navy and marine types show and enlisted your ship and crew

I would say yes, except the price would be very high if there was any threat to the ships, like for instance, a SCUD came crashing down on the USS TARAWA or the large RO-RO with all of the vehicles during the landing. That would be an incentive for the smaller ship Captains to stay away

Again do to the fuel shortage any evacuation would us smaller craft (think a force of small boat like at Dunkirk) and only transport men as far as the east German coast.

lets say that it was something not so drastic, something simple as improperly trained crew and the RO-RO rolls over during the final landing stages, as they offloaded the RO-RO improperly (it happens) and it rolled over in the bay with the Marines and Germans looking at it thinking; "Okay, No what, that was our meal and fuel ticket. Now what?"

Or something as a simple as “headquarters says there isn’t any fuel left for the landing craft to return. This could be followed by an incepted 5th Infantry Div “you're on your own” order or the omega order. The Div then has to make its way down the coast to Szczecin (which is close to German border). There they hope to evacuate back into Germany by sea or land.

[pmulcahy11b]

There's a canon mention in the color plates of the V2/2.2 NATO Combat Vehicle Handbook that the 2nd Marine Division has a Leopard 3 in Poland in 2000.

[rcaf_777]

MAP