Need your help/advice on optics , supressors and so on!

[B.T.]

Hi everybody!

I need your help in certain aspects of accessories for firearms. I'm GMing a campaign using the v2.2 rules. I stick to the given timeline. Therefore I assume, that a lot of special parts, like the SOPMOD kits for the M16/M4 carbine and similar equipment, are not in widespread use. But certain pieces are certainly available. Some pieces can even be homemade, given the talents (Gunsmith skills!).

1) How do you handle the effects of supressors? I use the noise table from MERC 2000, but I'm not sure, how a supressor would vary the ranges. All kinds of silencers and supressors basically slow the bullet's speed. This must have some effect on the ranges!
By the way: "Infantry weapons of the world" does not reduce the range of the bullet. For example: the data for the MP-5A2 and the MP5-SD3 are identical but as far as I can see, the range for the supressed MP should be reduced.
Has any one of you some kind of house rule?

2) How do you handle laser pointers in the game? In the early 90ies some pistols could be equipped with those. And laser pointers were very popular in schools and universities. These could easily be fitted to a rifle. Specialized rifle or pistol equipment will certainly be better suited for combat, but more "civil" items could be used (Maybe with reduced sighting ranges?).
How far does the beam go?
Isn't it easier to aim? Would a shot with a laser beamer or pointer become easier, i.e. reducing the difficulty level?

3) Last, not least, how alter flashlights, used as an aiming device, the chances of aiming? Is it easier to aim with them (again: decrease of the difficulty level?)? What about the "effective range" of the beam?

I'm well aware, that certain circumstances - like fog, rain, snow, or dust - have their effects on flashlights and laser pointers. Any ideas, how to handle this?

I'm afraid, the "Use your wits/experience!"-approach does not work here, because I have non:confused:.

I'd be verry thankful for any help on these and related issues.

Thanks for your help!

[pmulcahy11b]

I know this isn't a lot of help, but I have struggled with this for a while now. The Special Operations handbook allows for the user of a laser pointer to take up to three aimed shots per phase if the targets are within 40 meters. I allow the user of a reflex-type sight to make aimed shots on the move during any movement that allows at least a Difficult shot (you have to see my House Rules for Weapons to understand what that means). I allow the same for laser pointers during movement if the shot is at short range.

I have on my site under Equipment - Vision Devices some rules for scopes other than the standard 3-5x provided in the T2K rules.

Somewhere in one of the rulebooks, there are rules for suppressed weapons and noise that mentions Class I, Class II, and Class III noise, but I can't seem to find it right now.

I've heard in some places that the design of the MP-5SD allows for full-power rounds and ranges comparable to a standard MP-5, but most sources disagree. The MP-5SD on my site does not have anywhere near the range of the standard MP-5. In general, it seems that if you use the actual barrel length (which is usually shorter on a silenced weapon) and divide the range you get in figures from Fire, Fusion and Steel formulas by 1.2, it comes out about right for range.

If you don't have Fire, Fusion and Steel, it's worth the buy. I have some spreadsheets that, while not perfect, will get you in the ballpark for figures.

[Legbreaker]

As we all know, the printed range of a weapon is it's "close" range. x2 for medium, x4 for long and x8 for extreme.
Therefore a weapon of say 5.56mmN with a range of 50 would be as follows.

Close Medium Long Extreme
50 100 200 400
We also know that the bullet doesn't just drop out of the air the moment it hits 401 metres, but can travel several miles further on.
Therefore I would say the energy loss from a supressor isn't really going to have enough of an impact on game mechanics to worry about effecting accuracy. Hitting power on the other hand may be reduced by say -1 to each die of damage.

Dark Conspiracy (and Special Ops I think) state laser sights allow the first three rounds in a phase/turn to be aimed rather than the usual one. From memory it has no effect on quick shots and is only effective to 40 metres.

Flashlights have a much wider beam than a laser. My thoughts are the only real benefit is they let the user keep both hands on their weapon and still see.

[B.T.]

Thanks for quick answers and your thoughts on the item.

@Paul: I have a copy of "Fire,Fusion,Steel" but, to be honest: I had forgotten about that fact. I'll check it in the next days. But a very helpful hint!

Btw: Your site is really amazing and I will propably check it for your special rules. Keep up the good work!

Well, any further thought on the subject will be appreciated.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Here's some optional rulings and gear from a friend who was running a Dark Conspiracy game, keep in mind that some of the devices are from the 1990s-2000s so they might be too advanced for the Twilight War and you'd have to adjust the prices and availability codes from Dark Conspiracy to T2k

Laser Aiming Devices
Commonly called a LAD (pronounced lad) in military usage. Laser beams are normally invisible with the ‘dot’ being visible purely because it is projected onto a background (presumably the target). In smoke, fog, steam and very dusty conditions, the beam reflects from the particles in the air and is easily seen and can be followed back to the shooter’s position. Infrared and ultraviolet lasers are in the invisible spectrum for human eyes preventing this problem but are of limited use as IR viewers, thermal imagers or night vision devices are required to see the dot.

Smoke, fog, steam and dust along with rain and snow, can all diffuse the beam so that it is considerably duller than required. They can even block the laser beam so that it never reaches the target.
Range to the target can also diminish the brightness of the dot and thus make it harder to see.

Use of any Laser Aiming Device allows the user to conduct any shot as though it were an Aimed Shot. However due to the requirement to actually see the laser dot, the user must succeed at an Observation check before this benefit can be used. The Observation check will be subject to all the modifiers that apply to the laser beam itself plus any applicable to the vision of the user.
Despite their limitations, LADs can still be of benefit particularly when trying to hit a specific body location and so on.

Infrared Aiming Light: This provides a dot of laser light similar to that of any Laser Aiming Device. It is visible, however, only to those using night vision devices. Has a maximum range of 2000 metres in optimal night conditions and 700m in poor night conditions. These devices were likely first used by West Germany’s GSG9 on their H&K series rifles & SMGs in the late 1980s although heavy use was made of them in the early 1990s during Operation Desert Storm by Coalition forces.
Weight: 0.1kg
Price: $850 (R/C)

Laser Aiming Device, Pistol: This fingertip sized laser projects a visible dot (usually red) that can be used to quickly bring the weapon into alignment with the target. Bright daylight diminishes the intensity of red dot devices, reducing maximum range to around 50m. Otherwise, maximum range is 150m. More expensive orange dot lasers perform better in daylight, having a range of 75m in bright light while maximum range is 200m.
Wt: negligible (both types)
Price: red dot $280 (S/C), orange dot $350 (R/S)

Laser Aiming Device, Rifle, Common: This mini-flashlight sized laser projects a visible dot (usually red) that can be used to quickly bring the weapon into alignment with the target. Bright daylight diminishes the intensity of the dot, reducing the maximum range to 150m, otherwise maximum effective range is 450m. These devices have been used to good psychological affect by some police forces as many criminals find it disconcerting to have the red dot on their chest, indicating exactly where the police marksman will be hitting.
Wt: 0.3kg
Price: $410 (C/C)

Laser Aiming Device, Rifle, Military/Police: Essentially a more powerful version of the unit in the description above. Bright daylight diminishes the intensity of the dot, reducing the maximum range to 300m, otherwise maximum effective range is 900m. Note that at ranges beyond 500m, some sort of telescopic sight must be used to actually see the dot.
Weight: 0.3kg
Price: $620 (S/C)

Laser/Infrared Aiming Light Unit: This combines the features of the red dot Laser and the Infrared Aiming Devices so that the user can select between visible and invisible dots as required for day or night use. See those entries for beam range. It can also be used underwater to a range of 20 Metres. It may also be used as a source of illumination for those wearing NVGs much like a flashlight as the infrared light beam can be focused to provide either the tight beam for the aiming dot or a broad beam.
Weight: 0.2kg
Price: $750 (-/R)

Red Dot Sights

Red Dot Sight, Pistol: This Reflex Sight works like a 1x sight but uses a red dot projected into the focal plane of the eyepiece rather than a normal reticle. Able to be used with both eyes open and in day or night (adjustable brightness), the user simply places the dot over the target. It lowers the Difficulty Level by one step when aiming, out to a range of 100m. Typically fitted to pistols, shotguns and SMGs, however these sights are only useful when conducting an Aimed Shot.
Wt: 0.1kg
Price: $275 (C/C)

Red Dot Sight, Rifle: Essentially the same device as mentioned above however using an adjustable dot (a smaller dot is needed for longer ranges). It lowers the Difficulty Level by one step when aiming, out to a range of 500 metres. Typically fitted to carbines and medium range rifles e.g. 5.56mm types.
Wt: 0.1kg
Price: $350 (C/C)

[Legbreaker]

I challenge anyone with normal vision to see a tiny red dot at more than a few dozen metres....
Can't see how some of those ranges can possibly work.

[pmulcahy11b]

I challenge anyone with normal vision to see a tiny red dot at more than a few dozen metres....
Can't see how some of those ranges can possibly work.

There's also the factor of darkness vs. daylight. And looking at your dot through a scope. Hmmm...I need to give it more thought.

[Legbreaker]

Looking through a scope wouldn't be so bad as your field of vision is rather restricted (and hopefully the optics you're looking through have crosshairs to narrows it down further).
A red dot though is going to be near impossible to see in daylight and over open sights at more than a few dozen paces. Throw in smoke, movement (both target and shooter) and it'd make it extremely hard, if not near impossible to spot it.

Range is another factor - no bullet flies perfectly straight and level. Over distance the projectile will drop. Depending on the speed of the projectile, wind, air temperature, altitude (air pressure), and a multitude of other factors this might only be a few millimetres or it could be measurable in feet. Light from a laser on the other hand is usually uneffected by most of these factors.

[pmulcahy11b]

My brain hurts. I'll come back to this later -- maybe much later. Maybe let it percolate a while.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The ranges for the laser aimers are based on modern equipment. The only issue is whether a person can spot the laser dot or not, hence the Observation skill check. If it needs to be seen at longer ranges, you'll have to have some sort of magnifying sight.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Ive actually found that a red dot sight such as an Aim point easier to use then a laser and it is not effected by the environment. Ones vision might be though. You can readily see the red dot and do not have to try and look for it down range. its much more user friendly and seems to be quicker on acquiring the target. Also the red dot sight depending on type or quality can be used out to 300+ meters.

[B.T.]

Oh, man ...

This more complicated than I thought.

A very good idea is the Observation-check. I think, I'll definitely let my players do this.

But again to the supressors/silencers. Leg, you are defenitely right, in the case of assault rifles. But is it still the case if we talk about pistols? I still am not sure, but I think the ranges should be reduced, if a shot is at a longer distance than "short range".
I will certainly reduce the damage and the penetration of supressed weapons. Something like: -1 per 1D6. Not quite sure, how I'll do the Penetration decrease, maybe I'll take Paul's houserules.

Thanks, mates, you've really been a good help. If someone wants to give his 2 cents to this issue - I'd be glad for any further input!

Edit: When were armed forces beginning with the widespread issue of "red-dots"? I think, they will not be encountered in the T2k-world all that often, right?

[Gamer]

The only time I've ever seen laser sights good past short range is at night and with night vision, But then you better hope your opposition doesn't have NVS or your just telling everyone where you are.

I have no idea where some of you guys are getting your intel on suppressors affecting range, but it's actually negligible loss.
The only time you really loose range with suppressors is if you have to use the suppressors limiting you to subsonic ammo -with that ammo it doesn't matter if you have a suppressor on or not your range is limited.
Otherwise if you are loosing range it is definitely not installed correctly.

You should actually be getting better accuracy with the suppressor if it's installed it correctly.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think the range loss is as it pertains to subsonic rounds, which also tend to be pushing heavier bullets than standard. Rounds like .45 ACP, which are naturally subsonic, would not be affected by such. It would also depend upon the construction of the silencer.

The one first-hand source I have was a roommate of mine at 24th ID, who was with 2nd Ranger BN before an injury. He told me that while an MP5SD is very quiet (the bolt clatter is MUCH louder than the firing noise), the range is degraded significantly over a standard MP5. This, he said, was primarily due to the shorter rifled length of the barrel and something having to do with gas coming from the baffles. Silencers with wipes also degrade range. Brian Roethel knew his weapons, and was armorer-qualified on weapons I hadn't even heard of at the time. Most research I've done backs this up.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think I see what's going here: the confusion between a silencer and a suppressor.

A silencer is designed to seriously knock down the sound of a weapon firing, and it generally does that with a combination of subsonic ammunition and a special device, the silencer, which works by both/or a set of baffles which use the firing gasses and wipes that physically touch the round going down the silencer to slow it, to contain firing gasses and stop the bullet from exiting the barrel at supersonic velocity. These will reduce range, penetration, and damage. Heavier bullets and steel-cored bullets are often used to compensate for this.

A suppressor does not "silence" a weapon (no silencer actually makes a weapon sound like it does in the movies, BTW) -- it dampens most of the muzzle blast, and while it reduces noise very little, can cause confusion as to where the shot came from when heard from a distance. The primary reason for the use of a suppressor is to eliminate firing signature. It would not reduce range, damage, or penetration, though they do tend to wear out eventually, degrading accuracy in the process.

[Eddie]

Edit: When were armed forces beginning with the widespread issue of "red-dots"? I think, they will not be encountered in the T2k-world all that often, right?

The first military use reported is the Son Tay Raid during the Vietnam War. Widespread use came in the late 90s with the US Army Infantry getting them. I think the USMC lagged a few years behind us. Other nationalities, I don't know about.

In game, things are bad in that timeframe, but I could see an argument to field them anyway to increase troop survivability and help the more poorly trained replacements to shoot better since their training would be rushed. YMMV, though.

Bottom line though, you could logically explain it.

[Gorbag]

I just had a brain thingie on this subject, so I thought I'd comment here.

The Israelis got big into red dot sights in the late 80s/early 90s. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the equipment they used, but I'm sure it's out there in the interwebnets. Aimpoint also got going in the early 90s (makers of the more popular red dot sights), so the technology was already existent, just not mature. I suppose you could argue within the T2K timeframe about US units acting in concert with Israelis, seeing the cool gear, and making a case for general issue (if not some trading/midnight requisitions for personal use).

[Eddie]

Aimpoint also got going in the early 90s (makers of the more popular red dot sights), so the technology was already existent, just not mature.

Please don't think I'm trying to come across as a know-it-all and correct you, I'm trying to support your comments.

Aimpoint was actually around in the late 60s. The Son Tay Raiders took Aimpoint's first 200 produced sights for that mission. In those days they were designed for shotguns though, not military weapons.

One of the benefits of being at Benning was getting to talk to a bunch of the Raiders who now have contractor jobs on post (not PMC contractors, Range Control, doctrine writers and other office-type jobs). Apparently COL Simons heard about them and took all 200 of their first production run, then taped them to the carrying handles of their rifles. Nighttime accuracy went from 10-15% to about 75% according to the commander of the Greenleaf element.

Definitely a real world precedent, with supporting data, for an ambitious commander in Twilight (2000 or 2013), to submit an Operational Needs Statement to purchase red-dot sights for his battalion/brigade prior to the real world acceptance and issue in the late 90s. Then the whole issue of "general issue" is avoided.

[natehale1971]

okay.... i know this isn't part of the subject header, but i have a question about silencers. Can the silencer be built into a barrel and help with accuracy of the rifle, smg or pistol? I ask this out of an idea for a bullpup type series of weapons for my 2300ad campaign (image based off of some Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed weapons).

[Legbreaker]

OOOOO! I love Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed! Such awesome big guns and who can resist power armour!? :D

I rather doubt integral suppressors, etc will do much for the accuracy of the weapon. Barrel length and matching the number of twists to the ammo it's to fire is about the only real way you'll have any real effect.

[natehale1971]

OOOOO! I love Ghost in the Shell and Appleseed! Such awesome big guns and who can resist power armour!? :D

I rather doubt integral suppressors, etc will do much for the accuracy of the weapon. Barrel length and matching the number of twists to the ammo it's to fire is about the only real way you'll have any real effect.

Yup! Shiro does some good stuff (and actually does the technical drawings to back up what he's designed).

Can the silencer have the rifling as part of it? or does that defeat the purpose of the silencer?

[Legbreaker]

You could rifle the interior of the silencer, but as they're usually composed of lots of baffles it wouldn't do any good. Far better in my opinion to keep the barrel and silencer as seperate units, at least for calculating accuracy, muzzle velocity, etc.
As silencers tend to wear out faster than barrels, it might be more cost effective to have them as seperate units too. Perhaps not able to be removed in the field, but certainly back in the workshop with the right tools.

[Gorbag]

Please don't think I'm trying to come across as a know-it-all and correct you, I'm trying to support your comments.

Aimpoint was actually around in the late 60s. The Son Tay Raiders took Aimpoint's first 200 produced sights for that mission. In those days they were designed for shotguns though, not military weapons.

One of the benefits of being at Benning was getting to talk to a bunch of the Raiders who now have contractor jobs on post (not PMC contractors, Range Control, doctrine writers and other office-type jobs). Apparently COL Simons heard about them and took all 200 of their first production run, then taped them to the carrying handles of their rifles. Nighttime accuracy went from 10-15% to about 75% according to the commander of the Greenleaf element.

Definitely a real world precedent, with supporting data, for an ambitious commander in Twilight (2000 or 2013), to submit an Operational Needs Statement to purchase red-dot sights for his battalion/brigade prior to the real world acceptance and issue in the late 90s. Then the whole issue of "general issue" is avoided.

No worries...information is good. :)

And I had no idea those were Aimpoints on the Raiders' guns. Wow. Learn something new everyday.

[Eddie]

Yeah, I've posted about it a coupla times on other forums, but during OCS, our OCS Ball, Infantry Officers Basic Course, and the Maneuver Captain's Career Course, each of those Battalions brought in MAJ (Ret.) Dan Turner, the commander of the Greenleaf Element of the Son Tay Raid and he would give a little history of the raid, geared to the different levels of expertise. As the level of professional education increased, so did the relevance of the questions. After each, there was time allotted for handshaking and individual questions as well. If you ever get the chance, you should definitely talk to him.

Then a couple of other times we got to meet other Raiders as well, one of the most interesting was when I was talking to my dad about it in a restaurant in Athens, Alabama. Some guy overheard us and came and introduced himself as one of the NCOs in the Blueboy element. I've had no way to verify him since, but he definitely talked the talk enough to convince me, which is pretty difficult to do as I consider myself a pretty good Poser Hunter.

But, I'll quit threadjacking now and return you back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[B.T.]

Hi Eddie!

From my point of view your info was good and helpful. And minor threadjacking can get you even more input and newer ideas!

[weswood]

In game, things are bad in that timeframe, but I could see an argument to field them anyway to increase troop survivability and help the more poorly trained replacements to shoot better since their training would be rushed. YMMV, though.



What does YMMV stand for? It's new to me.

[Eddie]

Your mileage may vary.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

You could rifle the interior of the silencer, but as they're usually composed of lots of baffles it wouldn't do any good. Far better in my opinion to keep the barrel and silencer as seperate units, at least for calculating accuracy, muzzle velocity, etc.
As silencers tend to wear out faster than barrels, it might be more cost effective to have them as seperate units too. Perhaps not able to be removed in the field, but certainly back in the workshop with the right tools.

Can't rifle a suppressor. You would have a swiss cheese can after about 5-6 rounds.

[Legbreaker]

Exactly. While you can file lands into the baffles, it's virtually pointless and potentially dangerous.

[B.T.]

Oh no, it's that old optics thing again.

But I am really uncertain about several facts concerning the variants of the M16 in the T2k universe.

That's what I think is correct:
The standard rifle for all the US combat troops is the M16A2. I assume, a small contingent of M4 carbines has been issued. The majority is of the first production type, with the new handguard.
Another model would be the M4 or M4A1 MWS, the one with the rails.
The SOPMOD block 1 is in use, but only in very limited numbers.

I've read several things about the M16A3: Now, what is it? Is it a M16A2 variant with the full-auto option but with a fixed rear-sight/carrying handle, or is a flat top?

Next question: When have the M16 MWS variants been fielded? Or when were the rails for the long barrel rifle variants put into production or use?

I am well aware, that a lot more variants would be in use, especially the M16A2 carbine variants (M-733, M-723, maxbe even older XM-177En). Civilian versions will also be encountered.

How easy (or not) would it be, to equip the older versions with the A1-style handguards with the parts of the SOPMOD kits?
Would all the M4 variants be flat-tops?

I know, it is a very complicated issue, so I could really use a little help on this.

Any constructive income is welcome!

[pmulcahy11b]

Oh no, it's that old optics thing again.

But I am really uncertain about several facts concerning the variants of the M16 in the T2k universe.

That's what I think is correct:
The standard rifle for all the US combat troops is the M16A2. I assume, a small contingent of M4 carbines has been issued. The majority is of the first production type, with the new handguard.
Another model would be the M4 or M4A1 MWS, the one with the rails.
The SOPMOD block 1 is in use, but only in very limited numbers.

I've read several things about the M16A3: Now, what is it? Is it a M16A2 variant with the full-auto option but with a fixed rear-sight/carrying handle, or is a flat top?

Next question: When have the M16 MWS variants been fielded? Or when were the rails for the long barrel rifle variants put into production or use?

I am well aware, that a lot more variants would be in use, especially the M16A2 carbine variants (M-733, M-723, maxbe even older XM-177En). Civilian versions will also be encountered.

How easy (or not) would it be, to equip the older versions with the A1-style handguards with the parts of the SOPMOD kits?
Would all the M4 variants be flat-tops?

I know, it is a very complicated issue, so I could really use a little help on this.

Any constructive income is welcome!

The M16A3 is the M16A2 with a flattop receiver, topped by a MIL-STD-1913
rail. The front sight is retained; a BUIS (Backup Iron Sight) can be attached to the receiver rail, and the BUIS for the M16A3 isn't much different from that of the M16A2 in function. Some BUISs fold, allowing the shooter to keep it on his rifle even when optics are attached. The M16A3 uses the 3-round burst setting of the M16A2.

The M16A4 is the M16A3 with full-auto capability instead of the 3-round burst setting.

There is also an AR-15A3, which is the same as the M16A3 except that it can be used only in the semiautomatic mode, and has been designed to be virtually impossible to be converted to automatic fire. (The AR-15A2 is also designed to be close to impossible to convert to automatic fire.)

In either case, a standard rear sight/carrying handle can be attached to the receiver rail.

The standard M4 is basically a shrunken M16A2. M4 handguards cannot be used on an M16 or AR15 series and vice-versa. The M4A1 is the M4 equivalent of the M16A4. I've heard of an M4A2, but I don't remember offhand what its characteristics are. A civilian version of the M4 exists (going by the same name), but it has a 16-inch barrel as opposed to the 14.5-inch barrel of a military M4.

The SOPMOD kit was originally designed specifically for the M-4 series, but SOPMOD kits have since been developed for the M16A3 and M16A4. These have four-point MIL-STD-1913 rails on the handguards. The SOPMOD handguards can also be used with the M16A2 (or M16A1, M16, or AR-15 series for that matter). A plethora of accessories and optics have been designed for use with an M16 series rifle with SOPMOD rails.

M16-series rifles (and AR-15s and AR-15A1s) cannot have their handguards fitted with the SOPMOD kit, but their handguards can be replaced with the handguards of the M16A3/A4 or handguards with SOPMOD rails. Takes all of 30 seconds if you're taking your time. A good gunsmith can also take off the carrying handle of earlier M16s and AR-15s, leaving it flat; these have been fitted with Weaver rails, MIL-STD-1913 rails, drilling and tapping for scope bases, or special solutions for specific bases and optics (primarily early in the development of the M16/AR-15 series when the M16A3/A4/M4A1/AR-15A3 were not yet available). Adapters also exist to mount optics directly on the carrying handle of earlier rifles, but most shooters felt that this was a bad solution, leading to instability and bad aiming due to inadequate cheek weld and leaving them a little more vulnerable since they had to raise their head a little higher to use the optics.

The sliding stock of the M4 can be attached to M16/AR-15 series rifles.

The M16/AR-15/M4 series is perhaps the most copied rifle in the world; numerous clones exist, many of which have different rail solutions, sight solutions, barrel lengths, or items like muzzle brakes or shooter-removable flash suppressors or muzzle brakes that allow the attachment of suppressors. True silencers for the M16/M4/AR-15 are relatively rare, since they exact a serious penalty on the round's range and accuracy (particular when using a subsonic round). The M16 series is known to not function efficiently with less than a 10-inch barrel (though the Israelis, for a short time, used a CAR-16 with the barrel cut down to 9 inches). This is a problem with the Stoner direct gas impingement system and not the round. When they are used with less than a 14.5-inch barrel, muzzle blast and flash become progressively more massive, which is why many such shortened rifles have muzzle brake/flash suppressor combinations, massive muzzle brakes, or suppressors.

I'm willing to bet that someone would have modified the M16A1, M16A2, and M4 to the M16A3/A4 or M4A1 standard in the T2K timeline, whether informally in small batches or on a limited production basis (assuming they don't actually exist in T2K in the first place).

I'd like to offer you constructive income, but I could use some constructive income myself...(yes, I do know that was a mistype, but it was a funny mistype.)

[B.T.]

Paul, thanks a lot!

I've had a mistyping in my earlier post by myself. I was aware that the handguards of the carbine versions do not fit to the full length rifles. I was thinking about the handguards with a round cross-section (In service since the Vietnam era, right?).

I personally would like to offer the player characters the chance to get a SOPMOD model in their hands, just because of the possibility to fix several optics and so forth.

I know that there has been a small telescopic rifle sight, that can be mounted on the carrying handle of the earlier M16/AR15 rifles. But I think the newer types of optics, especially red dots and reflex types, or the ACOGs, would be a very welcomed option.

Do you know, since when the rails for the M16A3/A4 exist IRL?

You would say, there is no room for the M4 SOPMODs in the original T2k? Is this true even for the Ver2.n?

Edit: Ouch, the "constructive income" was my mistyping anyway. But if it was good for your amusement, I'm fine with that ;)

[bobcat]

there are optics that attatch to the equipment carrying handle of an M16A2 or Car-15 variant(pre M4). the first ones that come to mind being the ACOG in service since around 1990 in specialist units, and the colt sporter scope in service almost as long as the M16. both of these are 4x scopesdesigned to mount on the equipment carry handle by default. and there have been thousands of adapters to put M1913 rails on top of the carry handle since at least the mid 80's. so private joes snuffy very well might have put a 10x scope on his rifle to be "tacticool"(or just cause the only way he can qualify on the range is to cheat)

i know many soldiers who have used these optics(and really $30 for a better range card was the best investment of my career)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

there are optics that attatch to the equipment carrying handle of an M16A2 or Car-15 variant(pre M4). the first ones that come to mind being the ACOG in service since around 1990 in specialist units, and the colt sporter scope in service almost as long as the M16. both of these are 4x scopesdesigned to mount on the equipment carry handle by default. and there have been thousands of adapters to put M1913 rails on top of the carry handle since at least the mid 80's. so private joes snuffy very well might have put a 10x scope on his rifle to be "tacticool"(or just cause the only way he can qualify on the range is to cheat)

i know many soldiers who have used these optics(and really $30 for a better range card was the best investment of my career)

I knew some guys in the Aussie Army about 15 years ago who took a small block of metal and shaped it like the mount of the AN/PVS2. On the bottom was a screw just like that used to hold the PVS2 onto the M16A1 carry handle.
The top of the metal block had been tapped to allow standard civvy ring mounts for telescopic sights to be mounted. Took them a couple of days to sort out the "how and what" and then about an hour in a workshop to make it.

[ArmySGT.]

The only time I've ever seen laser sights good past short range is at night and with night vision, But then you better hope your opposition doesn't have NVS or your just telling everyone where you are.

I have no idea where some of you guys are getting your intel on suppressors affecting range, but it's actually negligible loss.
The only time you really loose range with suppressors is if you have to use the suppressors limiting you to subsonic ammo -with that ammo it doesn't matter if you have a suppressor on or not your range is limited.
Otherwise if you are loosing range it is definitely not installed correctly.

You should actually be getting better accuracy with the suppressor if it's installed it correctly.

Uh not entirely correct.

The answer here is depends on the type of silencer.

An integrally silenced weapon, such as the aforementioned MP5SD, have holes drilled in the barrel to let out propelling gas.

The premise in those is that all ammo is reduced to subsonic speeds and the gases trapped in the can to muffle the report.

You statement is more or less correct for a can threaded to the end of an otherwise stock weapon. This also depends on if that can is designed to bleed gas and slow the bullet to under 1100 fps or not.

[Milano]

I would tend to agree with ArmySGT. There are two types of suppressors integral and not integral.

Of the integral silencers I have never heard of one that doesn't reduce the speed of the full power cartidge bullet significantly. This does not mean that the bullet is always reduced to below the speed of sound. It would take quite a suppressor to slow a 7.62x51 to this level. That is why some weapons are designed to use subsonic ammunition, ie the AI Covert.

Of the "screw on" types there are two VERY general varieties. The first has wipes that slow the speed of the bullet and capture the expanding hot gasses and release them slowly. These have to be maintained often, like every 10 shots and are very very quiet. An, example is the silencer on the old Hush Puppy pistol.

The second is the type that just captures the gasses and releases them slowly. These are what is usually seen on movies etc. They do not slow the bullet and they do not hinder accuracy. However, without subsonic ammunition, they do not work as well as other types. There isn't the crack of the bullet leaving the muzzle but there is a definate "echo" of the bullet going downrange. Check Youtube and thee are alot of examples of these. (I saw one that really showed the difference. It was a guy fiing an m14 mod with both super and sub sonic rounds. WOW.)

[B.T.]

Two additional questions concerning optics and SOPMOD parts:

In my T2k-universe a limited number of SOPMOD rifles are available, issue M4 and improvized rails on other designs. Some of my players got their hands on SOPMODs.

1) The ACOGS: In game terms I use them as "sniper scope", which only means, "Rng" is 10 or 15 m higher.

2) An interesting question was raised by one of my players: Does an additional grip underneath the barrel decrease single shot recoil?
I'd say: "No!" Allthough the rifle is a little "bigger" than a rifle without a grip, I would just decrease "Bulk" by 1 point, if a person using an additional foregrip encounters a person with the same "Initiative" value.

Comments or hints, anyone?

Would come in handy, we'll be gaming on saturday - first session with the new "toys".

[Legbreaker]

I can't speak for an additional grip on the '16, but having used the Steyr AUG I'd say it would have little to no effect. It's purely a matter of personal preference and comfort whether the grip is down or up parallel to the barrel, although it can add a slight amount of stability in the prone position (where it's able to act a little like a monopod).

All in all, I'd say in the down position it may assist with reaction times at short range, but will do little for recoil controllability - weapon just naturally points better...

:confused:

[pmulcahy11b]

Having never used a weapon with a foregrip, I can't say for sure, but I'd think that it would simply make some shooters feel more comfortable. On automatic, it might have some effect, but perhaps not enough to be accounted for by the T2K rules.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Two additional questions concerning optics and SOPMOD parts:

In my T2k-universe a limited number of SOPMOD rifles are available, issue M4 and improvized rails on other designs. Some of my players got their hands on SOPMODs.

1) The ACOGS: In game terms I use them as "sniper scope", which only means, "Rng" is 10 or 15 m higher.
The ACOG sights come in different magnification power, from 1.5 up to 6 power so they do work as a telescopic sight but you will have to know specifically what magnification power the particular ACOG has.
I would suggest using the table Paul Mulcahy has for the bonus to range for using such sights http://www.pmulcahy.com/equipment/vision_devices.html
2) An interesting question was raised by one of my players: Does an additional grip underneath the barrel decrease single shot recoil?
I'd say: "No!" Allthough the rifle is a little "bigger" than a rifle without a grip, I would just decrease "Bulk" by 1 point, if a person using an additional foregrip encounters a person with the same "Initiative" value.

Comments or hints, anyone?

Would come in handy, we'll be gaming on saturday - first session with the new "toys".
I agree with Legbreaker, I think a forward grip makes the weapon more comfortable to use and only helps in some way to control recoil but not in any way that the rules can actually cover. It can even make the weapon faster to manoeuvre but again the rules don't cover that sort of thing and I think your rule for decreasing Bulk for a weapon with a foregrip when two people have the same Initiative works well to cover that.

I believe that ultimately it comes down to the weapon and also the ammunition used. For example no matter how much you held onto the forward grip on the Austeyr/AUG the weapon always pulled up and to the right when firing bursts yet the M16A2 didn't pull up as much even though we fired exactly the same ammunition through them.

[Webstral]

I had the option of using the forward pistol grip with my M4 and chose not to. I tried both options during the rare moments of down time during the train-up, and the forward pistol grip never felt natural to me. Of course, I'm an arch conservative when it comes to these sorts of things. I "grew up" using the M16A2, and my use of the M4 reflected my inherited prejudices.

[Schone23666]

I believe that ultimately it comes down to the weapon and also the ammunition used. For example no matter how much you held onto the forward grip on the Austeyr/AUG the weapon always pulled up and to the right when firing bursts yet the M16A2 didn't pull up as much even though we fired exactly the same ammunition through them.


I believe in that regard, unless I'm mistaken, it's due to the big recoil buffer and spring in the M16 (and also the M4), hence why it's rather easy to shoot.

In comparison, I heard the Steyr AUG doesn't quite have this setup, or the recoil buffer is smaller (someone please correct me here if I'm wrong!), hence recoil is slightly more of an issue. That and I hear the buttstock on the weapon isn't as comfortable to shoulder, but I'd like to hear opinions from our friends that have used the Steyr AUG before jumping to that conclusion.

[Schone23666]

I had the option of using the forward pistol grip with my M4 and chose not to. I tried both options during the rare moments of down time during the train-up, and the forward pistol grip never felt natural to me. Of course, I'm an arch conservative when it comes to these sorts of things. I "grew up" using the M16A2, and my use of the M4 reflected my inherited prejudices.

Why go with just a forward grip, when you can go with a "bipod grip"? A combination of a shorter bipod and forward grip, in one. :P I lol'd at this when pictures of those came out. "It looks like someone tore the feet off a chicken and forced them up the ass end of a grip!"

:D

[Webstral]

Why go with just a forward grip, when you can go with a "bipod grip"? A combination of a shorter bipod and forward grip, in one. :P I lol'd at this when pictures of those came out. "It looks like someone tore the feet off a chicken and forced them up the ass end of a grip!"

:D

That could serve a useful purpose during room entries. Upon seeing the first US soldier through the doorway, the defenders might burst into laughter, thus giving the Americans a brief but welcome window of opportunity to acquire targets free from defensive fire.

[Schone23666]

That could serve a useful purpose during room entries. Upon seeing the first US soldier through the doorway, the defenders might burst into laughter, thus giving the Americans a brief but welcome window of opportunity to acquire targets free from defensive fire.

Exactly...and who says chickens can't be effective weapons? :p

[B.T.]

Why go with just a forward grip, when you can go with a "bipod grip"? A combination of a shorter bipod and forward grip, in one. :P I lol'd at this when pictures of those came out. "It looks like someone tore the feet off a chicken and forced them up the ass end of a grip!"

:D

:D:D:D

Great!

Thanks a lot, guys. Informative and entertaining postings!

[Legbreaker]

...I hear the buttstock on the weapon isn't as comfortable to shoulder, but I'd like to hear opinions from our friends that have used the Steyr AUG before jumping to that conclusion.

Personally I found the AUG a much easier weapon to carry and shoot, much better balances and generally more comfortable. It also felt a lot more solid and I was certainly more confident with it in my hands over a '16. Of course I still, and always will prefer the L1A1 SLR, or anything else in 7.62 for that matter.

[Schone23666]

Personally I found the AUG a much easier weapon to carry and shoot, much better balances and generally more comfortable. It also felt a lot more solid and I was certainly more confident with it in my hands over a '16. Of course I still, and always will prefer the L1A1 SLR, or anything else in 7.62 for that matter.

Thanks for the input Legbreaker. And I have to ask since it pertains to a story I'm writing where a fairly, er, well-endowed woman's favorite shouldered weapon is a Steyr AUG....silly as it may sound, would being "well-endowed" create any sort of problem when using a bullpup weapon due to the magazine's location? I'm going to say, it shouldn't be unless she's like Dolly Parton (which she's NOT), though her measurements are roughly 36-24-36. :D

[Legbreaker]

I doubt it. Doesn't take much to search online and find all sorts of photos and video of well endowed women firing rifles, machineguns and other things that go bang. Granted, most of it is more focused on semi-naked women who've never held a weapon before in their lives, but large breasts still don't seem to be a problem.
Depends also on what they're wearing. We've all heard of such things as sports bras which tend to flatten the chest. Any active woman is likely to be seeking this sort of apparel out in preference to anything more soft and lacy one would expect (dammit!).

As for a bullpup mag getting in the way, not a problem at all. Although located towards the rear of the weapon, it's still several inches from the buttplate.

[Targan]

Thanks for the input Legbreaker. And I have to ask since it pertains to a story I'm writing where a fairly, er, well-endowed woman's favorite shouldered weapon is a Steyr AUG....silly as it may sound, would being "well-endowed" create any sort of problem when using a bullpup weapon due to the magazine's location? I'm going to say, it shouldn't be unless she's like Dolly Parton (which she's NOT), though her measurements are roughly 36-24-36. :D

Yeah, Leg, tell us... when you were firing the Steyr did your boobs get in the way? :D

[Legbreaker]

I didn't have any back then. Now, twenty years later and as many kilos added to the waist however...I'm still somewhat of an Adonis. :p

[Schone23666]

Yeah, Leg, tell us... when you were firing the Steyr did your boobs get in the way? :D

I damn near spat out my coffee laughing when I read that! :p

Man-Boobies!

[Eddie]

The M16A3 is the M16A2 with a flattop receiver, topped by a MIL-STD-1913
rail. The front sight is retained; a BUIS (Backup Iron Sight) can be attached to the receiver rail, and the BUIS for the M16A3 isn't much different from that of the M16A2 in function. Some BUISs fold, allowing the shooter to keep it on his rifle even when optics are attached. The M16A3 uses the 3-round burst setting of the M16A2.

The M16A4 is the M16A3 with full-auto capability instead of the 3-round burst setting.

One minor correction, you have the versions reversed. The A3 is fully-automatic, the A4 is limited to 3-round bursts.

http://www.armyproperty.com/Equipment-Info/M16A3-A4.htm

The standard M4 is basically a shrunken M16A2. M4 handguards cannot be used on an M16 or AR15 series and vice-versa. The M4A1 is the M4 equivalent of the M16A4. I've heard of an M4A2, but I don't remember offhand what its characteristics are. A civilian version of the M4 exists (going by the same name), but it has a 16-inch barrel as opposed to the 14.5-inch barrel of a military M4.

Also, not entirely accurate. My Colt LE6920 has a 14.5" barrel from the factory. Even the newer 694- series has an available 14.5" barrel. I think it's the 6944 or 6945, I don't remember which.

[Schone23666]

One minor correction, you have the versions reversed. The A3 is fully-automatic, the A4 is limited to 3-round bursts.

http://www.armyproperty.com/Equipment-Info/M16A3-A4.htm



Also, not entirely accurate. My Colt LE6920 has a 14.5" barrel from the factory. Even the newer 694- series has an available 14.5" barrel. I think it's the 6944 or 6945, I don't remember which.


How'd you manage that? I thought anything less than 16 inches for a carbine or rifle in civilian hands was illegal, or does that vary in some states, or perhaps you have to have an additional license and fees?

Personally, I think the whole "16 inch rule" for civilian rifles is BS, but that's me.

[Eddie]

How'd you manage that? I thought anything less than 16 inches for a carbine or rifle in civilian hands was illegal, or does that vary in some states, or perhaps you have to have an additional license and fees?

No, I don't think it varies by state. At least, not that I know of. But there are exemptions and loopholes with the additional license and fees. For instance, mine has the restricted stamp for Military/Law Enforcement on the side. I have a Georgia Firearms License and am active duty military. Georgia has very lax gun laws where active duty military personnel are concerned. For instance, I really didn't need to get the firearms license, under Georgia law I'm allowed to carry as long as I have my military ID card.

Anyone (who can legally buy a firearm) can buy it with a $200 tax and registration with the BATFE, though, civilian or military.

My point though, was that they exist and are on the market and in civilian gun shops so could be encountered in game.

[Schone23666]

No, I don't think it varies by state. At least, not that I know of. But there are exemptions and loopholes with the additional license and fees. For instance, mine has the restricted stamp for Military/Law Enforcement on the side. I have a Georgia Firearms License and am active duty military. Georgia has very lax gun laws where active duty military personnel are concerned. For instance, I really didn't need to get the firearms license, under Georgia law I'm allowed to carry as long as I have my military ID card.

Anyone (who can legally buy a firearm) can buy it with a $200 tax and registration with the BATFE, though, civilian or military.

My point though, was that they exist and are on the market and in civilian gun shops so could be encountered in game.


Ah, that makes much more sense, thanks. :)

And you'd be surprised what you'll find not so much in gun shops, but in more places that are a bit off the beaten trail, so to speak around here, or maybe not. :p

I still think Yamamoto said it best, "You cannot invade the mainland United States, there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

[B.T.]

This whole thing makes me mad! The more you know, the more questions arise :mad:

The AN/PEQ-2 would be in service. Is it right, that it only produces an infrared beam (More precise: 2 different, but still infrared beams, one narrow, one wide!)?
That means, it could only be used during nighttime and only by operators, wearing IR-goggles.
Did some kind of LAD exist, that could switch to laser (projecting a red dot to the target) or infrared laser?

And: If the operator wears IR-goggles, would an attached ACOG interfere with proper handling of the rifle?

And some more: As far as I know, it is impossible to use IR-goggles and some kind of sniper scope at the same time, right?

Err ... Thanks in advance!

[pmulcahy11b]

I still think Yamamoto said it best, "You cannot invade the mainland United States, there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

I like that line from the Soviet commander in Red Star, Lone Star: "The mosquitoes carry pistols."

[ArmySGT.]

This whole thing makes me mad! The more you know, the more questions arise :mad:

The AN/PEQ-2 would be in service. Is it right, that it only produces an infrared beam (More precise: 2 different, but still infrared beams, one narrow, one wide!)?
That means, it could only be used during nighttime and only by operators, wearing IR-goggles.
Did some kind of LAD exist, that could switch to laser (projecting a red dot to the target) or infrared laser?

And: If the operator wears IR-goggles, would an attached ACOG interfere with proper handling of the rifle?

And some more: As far as I know, it is impossible to use IR-goggles and some kind of sniper scope at the same time, right?

Err ... Thanks in advance!

AN/PEQ-2 is Infra red only and you must use NVGs that can see IR to see the IR projected by the AN/PEQ-2. It has three modes Off, Beam, Flood. Flood opens up the beam with a beam splitter so that acts light an IR flashlight.

The operator wearing IR goggles and an AN/PEQ-2 won't be looking through the ACOG. Doesn't need to. If the AN/PEQ-2 is properly bore sighted to the weapon then whatever the beam is placed on that is wear the bullet will hit.

Laser pointer of death.