Rifle Grenades

[Mahatatain]

Firstly does anyone know if the Soviets ever manufactured any rifle grenades like the US M31 HEAT rifle grenade?

Secondly how easy do people think that it would be to manufacture a bullet trap grenade and would this become a replacement for grenade launchers as 40mmS and 40mmN grenades because harder to obtain as the Twilight War progressed?

[pmulcahy11b]

AFAIK, only the Polish manufactured rifle grenades after World War 2 (though the Hungarians and Romanians also used the Polish grenades), and these required a ballistite cartridge and a special attachment for the rifle to use them.

Reverse engineering is always possible, of course, if the Soviets or Warsaw Pact felt it necessary. NATO seems to have moved away from rifle grenades to underbarrel grenade launchers, and the Russians and former Warsaw Pact countries also seem to have moved toward underbarrel grenade launchers. These are much easier to use and the ammunition is much more compact and just as effective in most cases. The French appear to be an exception.

BTU rifle grenades are generally designed to be used with a specific caliber of ammunition, and a flash suppressor of a certain diameter (generally a 22mm flash suppressor, as used with the 5.56mm cartridge).

[HorseSoldier]

There's a website somewhere on line for 37 and 40mm GL enthusiasts which includes info on reloading fired cartridges.

[dragoon500ly]

Both the French and the Belgians use(d) rifle grenades up until the 1970s, let me do some digging and see if I can get you further info.

[perardua]

The British forces used a rifle grenade until the introduction of the UGL, though I never saw one in service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_Grenade_General_Service

[pmulcahy11b]

I have some of those on my site, but I thought he was referring to Warsaw Pact rifle grenades.

[Raellus]

The Cold War Hungarian armed forces actually produced a dedicated rifle grenade launcher called the AMP-69. It was a modified AKM with a fixed launcher mount and 10-round magazine for the launching cartridges. They fired AT and AP grenades and I'm sure there were other types available as well. The rifle could apparently also fire standard M43 ammo as well.

I have a book called Battlefield (Orbis Publishing 1986) that has a photo of a Lebanese militiamen carrying what the caption says is "an AKMS fitted with a rocket launcher attachment" (it looks like a rifle grenade).

I think the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact developed rifle grenades for the AK/AKM but, since the more capable RPG was already issued at the squad/platoon level, they didn't bother to field them. Perhaps, in the Twilght War, they started to manufacture rifle grenades and adaptor gear to boost the firepower of Cat II and III units not issued with the more versatile 40mm GP series of underbarrel GLs.

[dragoon500ly]

can't find any info on Warsaw Pact rifle grenades, lots of info on Belgian and French. And the Belgians may not get any blood sausage but they have plenty of rifle grenades!

[pmulcahy11b]

Blood Sausage? Sounds like a Klingon dish...

[dragoon500ly]

Blood Sausage? Sounds like a Klingon dish...

Currently reading a copy of "Street Without Joy" that I had picked up at a yard sale. Excellent read on the First Indochina War, the author included a section on the traditional Foreign Legion marching song "Le Boudin".

Which just happens to include a chorus promising blood sausage for everybody except the Belgians, because they are shirkers.

The French Foreign Legion, they truly are the strangest soldiers!

[Mahatatain]

Thanks for all the info people.

I am most interested in WP rifle grenades and it sounds like they didn't really develop them due to their development of the RPG and then under barrel grenade launchers.

My next question is then what would be easier to manufacture in the year 2000 after several years of the Twilight War. Replacement 40mmS grenades for a BG-15 etc or a bullet trap rifle grenade for an AKM or AK-74, based on the concept of an out of date NATO rifle grenade?

What are people's thoughts?

(HorseSoldier - I had a look for those websites you mentioned about GL enthusiasts discussing reloading cartridges but I wasn't able to find anything useful)

[dragoon500ly]

it seems that it would be easier to make a old style rifle grenade. One of the old WWII rifle grenades was simply a standard US pineapple on top of an adaptor tube. You wouldn't have much range, maybe a 100 meters or so.

[Legbreaker]

Another (and woefully out of date now) is an M26 grenade clipped onto a sleeve with vanes that slides over an adapter. This is then fired with a Ballistite cartridge (after the pin is pulled of course). On striking the ground the grenade springs loose allowing the arm to fly free - a few seconds later and BOOM.
Potentially this can be reused (with a new grenade of course) if it can be recovered. I don't know anything about manufacture of the ballistite though so couldn't say if this would be a problem in 2000.

This type of weapon would I think become more and more common as time dragged on as existing hand grenades can be used. Naturally they're useless against any for of armour, but as a replacement for underbarrel type grenade launchers and light mortars, they're likely to be very handy.

(A quick wiki search later and it looks like ballistite is dead simple!)

[copeab]

it seems that it would be easier to make a old style rifle grenade. One of the old WWII rifle grenades was simply a standard US pineapple on top of an adaptor tube. You wouldn't have much range, maybe a 100 meters or so.

The max range of the "pineapple on a stick" was more like 200 yards.

There was also an adapter (basically a tail assembly with c;amps) that could be fitted to just about any US hand grenade to turn it into a rifle grenade. It could also be used to propel 60mm mortar shells as rifle grenades, but range was only around 100 yards.

[headquarters]

The Jugoslavs made rifle grenades a plenty for AK,SKS etc .

They werent Warzaw pact though - but I guess we can say that were counted amongst the "reds".

Likely that such developments would be exported to or produced under license in the warring states.

The Jugoslav war saw prolific use of such weapons - as artillery was scarce, they used rifle grenades and AA guns as artillery.

Jugo rifle grenades were nasty in effect and somewhat unpredictable in use.

[dragoon500ly]

Speaking as an evil GM...I'm all in favor of homemade, unpredictable explosives :D

[pmulcahy11b]

Speaking as an evil GM...I'm all in favor of homemade, unpredictable explosives :D

Yes! A molotov cocktail on a grenade-launching spigot!

[dragoon500ly]

LOL!

Didn't the Brits do that in WWII with the Northover Projector? I especially enjoy the picture of one being deployed in an anti-aircraft role.

Hmmmm....Molotov cocktails vs Stukas!!!!!

[copeab]

Yes! A molotov cocktail on a grenade-launching spigot!

Or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northover_Projector

or: http://soviethammer.devhub.com/blog/479816-ampulenjot-1941-system-kartukov/

[pmulcahy11b]

Jeez, I thought I had a good joke there, and it turns out some maniac actually tried it!

[dragoon500ly]

What do you expect from the peopl who brought you Monty Python's Flying Circus?

:D

[copeab]

The Northover Projector and Ampulenjot 1941 System Kartukov, being crude desperation weapons, would both fit well into T2K.

[dragoon500ly]

True!

I just wouldn't want to be part of the gun crew!

[Legbreaker]

Only because we know just how dodgy they are as weapons. :D

[Targan]

The Northover Projector and Ampulenjot 1941 System Kartukov, being crude desperation weapons, would both fit well into T2K.

Absolutely. They'd slot right into our threads discussing the use of black powder weapons in T2K. I wonder where in the Twilight world you'd be able to find schematics for either weapon? Not that they couldn't be reinvented from scratch but tried-and-true is generally a better option than make-it-up-as-you-go-along.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well then this will probably interest you, the 6th picture down the page
http://anonymous-generaltopics.blogspot.com/search/label/Molotov%20cocktail

[Legbreaker]

I wonder where in the Twilight world you'd be able to find schematics for either weapon?

Without the internet (which we've all grown to rely on VERY heavily) we'd be stuck with whatever's available in the local library (very little of military use) or reinventing the wheel....
Some may be lucky enough to have a book or two from larger libraries, private collections, or looted from stores, but they're likely to be few and far between.

[helbent4]

Andy,

BT grenades would be relatively easy to manufacture, probably as easy as hand grenades. Perhaps less as they just need an impact fuse, not a timed fuse.

For these particular rifle grenades (Bullet Trap or Bullet Through) there is no propellant, rocket motor or special Ballistite cartridges needed, an ordinary bullet will do. Practice is a lot easier than other grenade launchers because all that is expended is a bullet as BT grenades are recoverable.

The Yugoslavs (including the Serbs) use them extensively, and it wouldn't be difficult to copy them. However, doing some reading, I can't see references to the Kalashnikov-series rifles having grenade adapters built in, so that might have to be a latter modification.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

Another (and woefully out of date now) is an M26 grenade clipped onto a sleeve with vanes that slides over an adapter. This is then fired with a Ballistite cartridge (after the pin is pulled of course). On striking the ground the grenade springs loose allowing the arm to fly free - a few seconds later and BOOM.
Potentially this can be reused (with a new grenade of course) if it can be recovered. I don't know anything about manufacture of the ballistite though so couldn't say if this would be a problem in 2000.
Paul have you done anything with this type of weapon? (This particular one fits on the L1A1 SLR)

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/03/L1A2GLDs1-1.jpg
http://www.specialistauctions.com/cache/cache_500_1__mb124715_ddd4974caa214cd991cbb4b6f3cd 6957_mainpicjpg.img?7690

[Adm.Lee]

Did the rest of NATO actually deploy these things? I don't remember reading or seeing anything about them in the '80s, so I always figured they were drawing-board kinds of things, like the G11, T-90 and the M1A2.

I don't remember seeing them in any other WWIII game that I had, but they might have just faded into the background. We didn't talk about them in the little ROTC I was in, but tactics were mighty minor in that class.

[Legbreaker]

This particular item is British in origin and faded into the background here in Australia at least when the M79 and M203 became relatively widespread. In all my years in the infantry I only saw them once and fired about half a dozen (training) grenades with it.
The gas plug on the L1A1 SLR has to be turned to prevent the gas system operating (ALL of the gas goes out the barrel) and a ballistite round used. One HELL of a lot of recoil - enough to break your thumb if wrapped around the pistol grip! The grenade pin is pulled, butt of the weapon placed into the groin (yup, scary, I know!) and the front/only sight on the adapter raised. Propels the grenade up to about 200 metres from my rather sketchy memory.
The grenade and fin section come apart on hitting the ground, the lever is released and the grenade bounces a bit further on until it explodes. The fin section can be recovered for reuse.
The adapter can also be used to fire other types of projectile and the Australian Navy were using them to shoot lines between ships up until about 2000. The rifle can be fired using normal rounds with the adapter (but not grenade I hope!) in place, but it's a good idea to turn the gas plug back around to the normal position first, otherwise you're left having to recock for every shot. A bayonet cannot be fitted at the same time (the adapter uses the bayonet catch to hold it in place).

[DocSavage45B10]

Uhuh, 'Ballistite cartrige' is just a fancy way of saying 'high preassure blank', since Ballistite is just a trade name for an early formula of smokeless.

Fun fact, the (almost) original formula of Ballistite is still used as rocket fuel.

Another (and woefully out of date now) is an M26 grenade clipped onto a sleeve with vanes that slides over an adapter. This is then fired with a Ballistite cartridge (after the pin is pulled of course). On striking the ground the grenade springs loose allowing the arm to fly free - a few seconds later and BOOM.
Potentially this can be reused (with a new grenade of course) if it can be recovered. I don't know anything about manufacture of the ballistite though so couldn't say if this would be a problem in 2000.

This type of weapon would I think become more and more common as time dragged on as existing hand grenades can be used. Naturally they're useless against any for of armour, but as a replacement for underbarrel type grenade launchers and light mortars, they're likely to be very handy.

(A quick wiki search later and it looks like ballistite is dead simple!)

[Legbreaker]

Ballistite is a smokeless propellant made from two high explosives, nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine. It was developed and patented by Alfred Nobel in the late 19th century.
It was trademarked yes, however it is simply a different formula of smokeless powder which Cordite was modified from.

[Legbreaker]

An interesting page...
http://benandbawbsblog.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/revisiting-rifle-grenade.html

[dude_uk]

Upon introduction of the SA80 in the late 1980's, Britain made purchase of the 'CLAW' (Close Light Assault Weapon) rifle grenade system. Probably because they thought it was cheaper than buying a 40mm grenade launcher.

It seems to have mainly seen action in the late 80's and early 90's. No sources seem to indicate its use in the 90's and it was phased out in favour of a HK 40mm launcher in time for the 2003 Iraq war. So i have no idea of its effectiveness.

Rumour has it a member of the 1st Royal Scots won a military medal for using one against an Iraqi APC during Gulf war 1 though!

[Legbreaker]

Rumour has it a member of the 1st Royal Scots won a military medal for using one against an Iraqi APC during Gulf war 1 though!

Trust a Scotsman to attack armour using an antiquated weapon....
And succeed! :D

[pmulcahy11b]

Rumour has it a member of the 1st Royal Scots won a military medal for using one against an Iraqi APC during Gulf war 1 though!

There were rumors during Desert Storm and for months afterwards that "some guy" had shot down a Hind with an M203. I dismissed that as "war stories," though if you were to hit a Hind just right -- at the lower rear fuselage where the oil tank and lubrication fluid reservoirs are -- you might take down a Hind with an M203. I just don't put much credence in it, especially it was always "some guy in 24th ID", "some guy in the 504th," etc.

[pmulcahy11b]

Paul have you done anything with this type of weapon?

Nothing more than a few blurbs here and there, and you'll find some on the Rifle Grenades pages, particularly in the Russian, Polish, and Chinese entries.

In the T2K v2.2 timeline, the standard rifle grenades of Russia and the Warsaw Pact would in fact be these old relics. A few units might have BTU grenades that were reverse engineered or copied from blueprints, but not many.

Interesting fact: The US reverse-engineered the RKG-3M in the 1960s and added some improvements to the warhead and fuze. It was called a HAAG (Hand Anti-Armor Grenade). It got to the field testing phase, but the troops and their commanders didn't fancy getting close enough to a tank to actually use the HAAG.

[Raellus]

There were rumors during Desert Storm and for months afterwards that "some guy" had shot down a Hind with an M203. I dismissed that as "war stories," though if you were to hit a Hind just right -- at the lower rear fuselage where the oil tank and lubrication fluid reservoirs are -- you might take down a Hind with an M203. I just don't put much credence in it, especially it was always "some guy in 24th ID", "some guy in the 504th," etc.

I'd never heard that one. Seems like, if it were true, the story would be more well known. I suppose you could do it, though. Aside from the soft spot you mentioned, a 40mm HEDP grenade in the cockpit or in the engine area might do the trick as well.

I remember mentioning this before, and you have it on your site Paul (it's the 8th entry on the Google search results page!), but one of the odder modern rifle grenades is the RAW (Rifleman's Assault Weapon). It looks like a matte black, size 4 soccer ball mounted just below the muzzle brake/flash hider on an M-16. Here's a link to a couple of photos.

http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/threads/brunswicks-rifleman-assault-weapon-raw.13190/

The USMC ordered a few back in the early '90s, but that was about it. Supposedly, it worked pretty well against fortifications and an anti-armor version was developed. I guess it was just too different, compared to more conventional LAW systems, and the Marines decided to go in another direction (the SMAW, I assume).

I suppose that the Twilight War could see the Pentagon ordering a bunch as a low-cost alternative to other light assault/AT rocket systems. Seems like it would be quite helpful in MOUT.

[Rockwolf66]

There were rumors during Desert Storm and for months afterwards that "some guy" had shot down a Hind with an M203. I dismissed that as "war stories," though if you were to hit a Hind just right -- at the lower rear fuselage where the oil tank and lubrication fluid reservoirs are -- you might take down a Hind with an M203. I just don't put much credence in it, especially it was always "some guy in 24th ID", "some guy in the 504th," etc.

Sort of like there is a rumor that a Littlebird packing a GAU-19/A shot down another aircraft with it.

[Panther Al]

Heh.


Stories like that get brewed up more than anything else in war. There is always a story about some guy, with some thing, doing some action against this other thing. And its always from a buddy of a buddy.

Of course, its always entertaining, so no harm done, and it helps to separate the has done's from the wannabe's by who believes the stories and who doesn't. :)

[simonmark6]

Don't think the MM guy is a rumor though: I found this on tinternet:

M.M.
24780087 Private Thomas Robertson GOW,
The Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment).
On 26 February 1991, 1 Royal Scots Battle Group
was ordered to attack an enemy position in Southern
Iraq as part of 4th Armoured Brigade's thrust East. B
Company was tasked to assault a platoon objective
which was well established and dug in. A preliminary
phase of the operation had confirmed that there were
T-55 tanks in the area. The position was subjected to
an intense artillery bombardment which, combined
with a strong wind, produced appalling visibility.
Five Platoon of B Company carried out a rolling
assault on the northern end of the position whilst the
remainder of the company provided fire support. As
the attack proceeded it became apparent that at least
one of the vehicles was too well dug in to be reached by
Warrior Armoured Personnel Carriers.
Private Gow, who was acting as the section second
in command, immediately appreciated the situation
and saw that the momentum was being lost. On his
own initiative, he ordered his fire team to cover him
and crawled forward towards the vehicle. Despite the
fact that mines and bomblets had already exploded on
the objective, he got to a position within 20 metres of
the enemy vehicle and destroyed it with his Close
Assault Weapon and finished it off with a grenade. He
then followed up by charging two bunkers, clearing
them with grenades, without regard to the ammunition
exploding around him. He captured three officers and
four soldiers.
Private Gow had been in action for 24 hours and his
section had already been involved in an assault before.
The initiative, aggression and determination displayed
by this brave man during this action exceeded that
expected of his rank and experience.