Twilight 2013 to end publication in December 2010

[Jason Weiser]

Thought I would pass this along:

http://www.93gamesstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2982

I want to thank each and everyone on the forum for their participation and they're level of respect for each other. I've seen a ton of discussions on here and very rarely have I had to say anything to anyone. I think that is a testament to the players who respect this game and who have kept it alive all of these years.

This is probably the hardest post I've every had to make on any forum I belong to. The license for the use of Twilight: 2000 and its supplements runs out Dec. 31, 2010. For personal reasons, I've decided not to renew the license. At which time I'm also going to close the doors on 93 Games Studio.

I am working to pass on the rights of the Reflex system to a new publisher who will continue to bring forth new products for this amazing engine. As this progresses I will keep you posted.

I haven't decided what will happen with the forums yet. My hope is that the new owner of the Reflex system will take them over and there will be no disruption of service. For the meantime though the forum will remain open.

It's been an amazing 9 years (total time 93GS has operated) and I'll treasure my time with everyone.



BTW, in case you are wondering, there is still stock available. Please let me know if you are interested in scooping some of them up.

[kato13]

That is a real bummer. I hope the reflex system finds a home.

[Targan]

Huh. I'm really surprised at this development. It is sad. Still, following on from Teygyrius's withdrawal from involvement in 93 Games Studio's publications I guess the writing was on the wall that all was not well. It must be really difficult to be an independent RPG publisher these days.

[cavtroop]

It must be really difficult to be an independent RPG publisher these days.

yeah, I think that's the long and short of it. The RPG industry just isn't what it used to be, not even close. It's (impossibly) hard to make a living at it. I help a friend that is mildly successful in publishing Pathfinder PDF's, and he pulls in several dozen dollars a month, at the most.

The Halycon days of RPG publishing are long gone. The industry has contracted, and MMOs and Millenials are eating it's lunch. :(

Very sad to see Twilight:2013 go away, I really like the system, just can't find anyone to play it with, which I guess is symptomatic, eh?

[Legbreaker]

What's even sadder is that NONE of the T:2013 materials made it into this part of the world. They might as well not exist from looking in the various stores that could have stocked it.
My guess is the distributors could have done a better job....

[helbent4]

Very sad to see Twilight:2013 go away, I really like the system, just can't find anyone to play it with, which I guess is symptomatic, eh?

Cav,

If they'd have ever gotten the vehicle combat system and other rules sorted out I would have like to have given the Reflex rules a shot for my T2K game. Background aside, there was a lot of cool detail there.

As for availability, I live in Canada and never saw anything in actual print. That's pretty unusual, we generally see most of what's on the market eventually. I really wanted to like this game but those three factors made it a losing proposition on a personal level, and didn't help in today's market.

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

The Halycon days of RPG publishing are long gone. The industry has contracted, and MMOs and Millenials are eating it's lunch. :(

They could maybe make an MMO version of T2K? But true roleplaying would lose out to the combat...I think a good T2K MMO would need more AI on the part of its servers.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

What's even sadder is that NONE of the T:2013 materials made it into this part of the world. They might as well not exist from looking in the various stores that could have stocked it.
My guess is the distributors could have done a better job....

I believe this had less to do with distributors and more with 93 Games. International sales were not given much consideration from what I've seen on their own website
My thoughts; they produced too many gun books at the expense of role playing material

[Rainbow Six]

What's even sadder is that NONE of the T:2013 materials made it into this part of the world.

Ditto for my part of the World (granted there aren't that many RPG stores in my part of the World!).

[Dog 6]

imo the Background sucked so bad I wish I had saved my money. not sad to see it go tbh

[Targan]

I bought my hardcopy of the T2013 rules at my local games store in Perth. Half way around the world.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I bought my hardcopy of the T2013 rules at my local games store in Perth. Half way around the world.

I know of the shop of which you speak and if I remember correctly what I was told, they were only able to get three or four copies in total - hardly a worthwhile number and certainly not enough to generate word-of-mouth interest or make international sales profitable

[Legbreaker]

Three or four copies for PERTH!? :O
Ok, maybe a few more for the other stores, but seriously, how the hell did they expect to break into the market with such low penetration? That's just STUPID.
Is it any wonder they've gone under when they didn't even bother to supply the market properly?

[helbent4]

Three or four copies for PERTH!? :O
Ok, maybe a few more for the other stores, but seriously, how the hell did they expect to break into the market with such low penetration? That's just STUPID.
Is it any wonder they've gone under when they didn't even bother to supply the market properly?

Leg,

I never saw a hardcopy, I got the .pdf for Christmas. Vancouver is a little out there but not exactly the end of the universe.

Certainly, distribution was not 93 Studio's job of course, and that's a hazard of business that has sunk other gaming companies. I counted five sourcebooks for weapons, including one alone on M16s and variants (seriously?) which was within their control.

One problem was the background, although not for lack of thought or detail. It wasn't that it was bad but frankly seemed to belong to a completely different game. I was very amused at Canada invading the USA, shades of "Amerida" from SNL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGQuRDjo7TI

Phil Hartman as the angry American... classic!

I'm not privy to the decisions that resulted in "updating" most of the original background, but it would seem the licence to T2K was both besides the point and meant they are now forced to abandon the project when it ran out. I presume the revised timeline was intended to make the setting more timely and relevant, and maybe appeal to a wider audience that doesn't remember the Cold War. In practice it worked out to being TNE all over again. (As well, The Morrow Project appears to be heading down this revisionist road, too.)

If one (or more) of the gun books had been dropped and a sourcebook or two updating T2K to the Reflex system been added it would have been worth it, or at least made better use of the licence. (I don't know about the "Cold War" gun book, so maybe that was their nod to previous editions?)

Tony

[Legbreaker]

Although hardware is cool, you can't write a game based solely on that which is what I gather they tried to do (I haven't laid eyes on anything beyond the promotional material from a few years back).
A believable story is VITAL (unless it's supposed to be totally out there such as Tales from the Floating Vagabond).

[natehale1971]

To many that i talked too just couldn't get over the fact the president 'disbanding the federal government with an executive order'... when it takes 2/3rds of the states to disband it! Now the president could order Federal assets to stand down, and place themselves under the authority of State and Local governments during the 'period of emergency/national disaster'... But at least they touched on the legality of the order in their own narrative prose of two rich @$$holes talking about setting themselves up as Lords of the Manors and such.

[Eddie]

Well, the license comes open in December...

Richard, I know you had big ideas to revitalize T:2K...

[natehale1971]

Well, the license comes open in December...

Richard, I know you had big ideas to revitalize T:2K...

Yes... i did.

It was going to be a big idea for the game set up. even drew up mock ups for the covers of the core rulebook and each of the sourcebooks. If anyone is interested in what i wanted to do.. i can post it here and have everyone though their two cents in and possibly get a damn good set up (and help bridge the gaps from my brain damage). :)

[Legbreaker]

Hmm, I wonder what the licence would cost.....

[natehale1971]

Hmm, I wonder what the licence would cost.....

THat I don't know... but wish i did!

[Dog 6]

lets try and find out.

[Mahatatain]

I think that it is sad that T2013 has ceased but I think that some decisions were made by 93 Games Studio that made the success of the game unlikely.

1. The game background is weak in places and is quite US centric. The details of the UK made me cringe and I read one comment (from an Australian) when the game was realeased that he suspected that the writers hadn't even looked at Australia on a map! It seemed to me that the game background was written for a US market without any thought to an international market as it plays heavily to US stereotype views of the rest of the world. My instant reaction as a GM therefore was that I would have to rewrite the game background or simply use the system in a different setting.

2. There are some flaws in the combat rules (in my opinion) and that put several players I know off the game after an initial session.

3. Their business model seems to focus around people purchasing pdf versions rather than actual books in most countries and that seems wrong to me. Most gamers (and the majority of T2k fans) are "older" gamers and are more likely to spend the money for a good quality hardback book (which is what they produced in some markets) rather than a pdf. None of the supplements were ever more than pdfs though (I believe).

4. They initially focussed on firearms supplements rather than sourcebooks or adventures and when they did release a sourcebook it was for their "Everytown" generic setting rather than the Czech sourcebook Tegyrius developed - http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2355

It's sad when any game fails but I think that their approach was flawed in the first place.

They seem to be nice guys however so I hope that they do well in the future. They've done more to contribute to the gaming hobby as a whole than I've ever done!

[Mahatatain]

lets try and find out.

I think that the guys at http://www.farfuture.net/ might well know who owns the licence.

[Tegyrius]

If they'd have ever gotten the vehicle combat system and other rules sorted out I would have like to have given the Reflex rules a shot for my T2K game. Background aside, there was a lot of cool detail there.
FYI, it's not a complete rewrite, but one of the last pieces I released on the 93GS forums included an errata pack for the vehicle rules. It's also in the manuscript for Driver's Guide: Czech Your Engine (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2361).

If one (or more) of the gun books had been dropped and a sourcebook or two updating T2K to the Reflex system been added it would have been worth it, or at least made better use of the licence.
Aside from some equipment conversions and possibly a reduction in the availability of the Computing skill, I think Reflex is completely usable with the T2k setting. That was, in fact, one of my primary design objectives. What would you say is missing?

(I don't know about the "Cold War" gun book, so maybe that was their nod to previous editions?)
Not really. Cold Warriors came about because I have a C&R license and wanted to stat out some of the stuff that I've reserved space in the safe for. After I ran the numbers on a few rifles, I realized I had another possible theme for a Shooter's Guide PDF.

I think that it is sad that T2013 has ceased but I think that some decisions were made by 93 Games Studio that made the success of the game unlikely.
You say "93 Games Studio" like the company is a massive entity.

3. Their business model seems to focus around people purchasing pdf versions rather than actual books in most countries and that seems wrong to me. Most gamers (and the majority of T2k fans) are "older" gamers and are more likely to spend the money for a good quality hardback book (which is what they produced in some markets) rather than a pdf. None of the supplements were ever more than pdfs though (I believe).
Like it or not (and I, personally, do not like the trend), I fear it's the way the industry is headed. PDF publication eliminates a massive amount of cost from the product and cuts several months off the back end of the production schedule, as well as allowing rapid distribution of errata/updates.

- C.

[helbent4]

Clayton,

No disrespect is meant to yours or anyone else's efforts on T2013. You seem to imply that "93 Studios" is not some kind of monolithic entity. To be fair, gaming companies did use to be fairly monolithic entities, so for those of us that have been gaming for a while that's a natural if outdated assumption. We regular gamers are probably not as privy to the inner workings of any company as an insider would be.

From a design point of view I can see there being a desire to get away from going over ground that's been thoroughly covered because old-timers would be bored and/or insulted and new players not already familiar with the setting would not be attracted. Hard Eight Enterprises licenced the 1st edition AD&D rules and refined them while also recapitulating classic dungeon crawls on a literal module-per-module basis. The resulting "Hackmaster 4th edition" was probably financially successful and definitely award-winning; HM still has momentum even after the end of their licence. Granted, there was a considerable advantage because of the prior connection to 1st ed. AD&D and awareness created by KotDT. I'm less familiar with Mongoose Traveller, but I believe Mongoose licenced Traveller from FFE and made a success by building on CT rules and the style of the old adventures and 3rd Imperium setting.

In other words, when gamers read HM 4e and Mongoose Traveller the response wasn't "groan, same-old, same-old" but "yes! This was what we should have had instead of 2nd/3rd/3.5/4th edition and/or MegaTraveller/TNE (especially)/M0/T20/G:T". I can't speak for Mongoose Traveller but I've not had any problems with younger or other players without AD&D 1st ed. experience in playing HM 4e.

That said, as to what could have been added was at least a recap and clean-up of T2K, perhaps a re-work of at least some of the original adventures (like v2.2 attempt that was abandoned with Krakow). Then working within the same (or similar) timeline until 2013.

Regarding the vehicle rules, I'm glad you came up with some additions. I'll certainly have a look at them! When I was considering adapting Reflex for my T2K game I checked the 93 T2013 forums and discovered there were problems with the vehicle rules regarding movement and penetration. I backed off until this could get sorted out, and there it is.

Not really. Cold Warriors came about because I have a C&R license and wanted to stat out some of the stuff that I've reserved space in the safe for. After I ran the numbers on a few rifles, I realized I had another possible theme for a Shooter's Guide PDF.

"C&R licence", "safe"? Ah, not too sure what you mean, but I'm guessing you're saying that in developing some stuff you realised you had enough material for a separate "Shooter's Guide" PDF, which wouldn't cost anything to produce and would serve to fill in some blanks for those who were interested?

Edit Added:

After reading the notice of a new game using Reflex with T2K and the classic modules, I see someone else was waaaay ahead of me! :D

Tony

[Tegyrius]

Clayton,

No disrespect is meant to yours or anyone else's efforts on T2013. You seem a little defensive about the assumption that "93 Studios" is some kind of monolithic entity. To be fair, gaming companies did use to be fairly monolithic entities, so for those of us that have been gaming for a while that's a natural assumption. We regular gamers are probably not as privy to the inner workings of any company as an insider.
Yeah, I am a bit defensive about it. There's stuff I'm not going to discuss at this point for various reasons, but I'll repeat something that has been my mantra for a couple of years now: 93GS has exactly one full-time employee, and even he has a real job to subsidize his hobby job. Everyone else involved with the project is/was freelance talent, selling our work to Keith on a per-word or per-art-piece basis - if not doing it unpaid to gain publication credits. As the primary rules writer, I fell into the per-word category, and while my word rate is decent for the gaming industry, I could make more teaching high school English than writing RPGs as a full-time job. Keith's ultimately dropping the license because it's not profitable. So it's not like there was this massive cabal of money-grubbing capitalists out to shit on everyone's fond memories of 1e and 2e... which, at times, feels like the opinion that the majority of this forum's members hold.

As far as the rules/setting relationship... it's complicated. I think it's fair to say that Keith had a lot of problems getting writers not to flake on the setting side of the project. That's an occupational hazard of the RPG business. It's damned hard to find people who (A) know how to write English at a professional level, (B) consistently adhere to deadlines, (C) are willing to work for crap word rates, (D) can produce compelling and coherent setting and/or rules material, and (E) understand what the line developer/director's vision is.

I like to think I usually satisfy requirements A, C, D, and E. I'm still working on B - I like writing but life gets in the way. I like writing setting material and I wish I could have done more of it in 2013. However, during that whole time of turmoil, I was off trying not to completely screw up the rules side of the project, either either by writing it myself or by doing outlines for other rules writers and then developing their manuscripts to align with the engine. Because the setting was fluctuating, I couldn't and didn't write something whose mechanics were in thematic lockstep with the world (for an example of that, see, oh, Deadlands or Houses of the Blooded). So what you guys got in Reflex was a halfway decent generic modern system with an integral rules pack for post-apocalyptic play. Like I said, one of my objectives was to make Reflex usable with the GDW settings, not just with the specific world of 2013.

"C&R licence", "safe"? Ah, not too sure what you mean, but I'm guessing you're saying that in developing some stuff you realised you had enough material for a separate "Shooter's Guide" PDF, which wouldn't cost anything to produce and would serve to fill in some blanks for those who were interested?
Ah, sorry. Now I see your location line. :) C&R is short for "Curio & Relic," which is a limited type of federal firearms license that the appropriate American authorities will issue to collectors of such weapons. A C&R licensee can bypass some bureaucratic annoyances when purchasing the older firearms that are on the current C&R master list (and it's also good for discounts at some shooting supply houses). So, basically, I was looking at rifles from the C&R list that I wanted to buy and realized that they had enough history to be the makings of an interesting little supplement.

... well, I thought it was interesting, anyway...

Edit Added:

After reading your notice of a new game using Reflex with T2K and the classic modules, I see you were waaaay ahead of me! :D
That's Max, actually. If I ever get to run 2013, it'll probably use the Czech Republic setting. That's probably the only way anyone will ever play in it...

- C.

[helbent4]

Yeah, I am a bit defensive about it.

So it's not like there was this massive cabal of money-grubbing capitalists out to shit on everyone's fond memories of 1e and 2e... which, at times, feels like the opinion that the majority of this forum's members hold.

That's Max, actually. If I ever get to run 2013, it'll probably use the Czech Republic setting. That's probably the only way anyone will ever play in it...

- C.

Clayton,

Heh, looks like I was modifying my post when you replied; I do see the game was Max's idea, not yours.

Your defensiveness does seem misplaced. No one is making comments about 93 Studios out of knowing malice and no one begrudges the fact that someone wants to make money as long as they're offering quality in return... and a product people want to support.

I agree there was no conspiracy to "shit on everyone's fond memories of 1e and 2e", so presumably it was done for the best reasons and with the most noble intentions. Does it matter? As you say, the "line developer/director's vision" was ultimately responsible for the product and the lack of success, not the customers who ended up deciding not to buy the product, or did and were disappointed, like me. Thinking that the licence for T2K wasn't put to the best use doesn't make me some kind of ungrateful wretch or unwashed conspiracy theorist.

As for the Cold War sourcebook, hey, I would definitely pay for that! That was a cool thing about T2K, the wacky and outdated weapons added in the Small Arms and heavy Weapons handbooks.

Interesting thing about Deadlands, eventually the rules were "reverse-engineered" by way of the Great Rail Wars to be more generic and universal. I'm running Hell on Earth and might convert to Savage Worlds if the right supplement comes out. Reading up about HotB, maybe not so much.

Tony

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Clayton,

After reading the notice of a new game using Reflex with T2K and the classic modules, I see someone else was waaaay ahead of me! :D

Tony

Well that "someone" was also part of the design team. LOL

Czech was my second choice (and I will run a group there once they are familiar witht he system) but what made me choose the original modules was that I was clearing out my storage unit and pulled out my collection. As I was thumbing them I felt nostalgia hit me and thought the rookie group might like to experience the fun I had with the original modules - modified.

[Snake Eyes]

I've been stewing over this for a couple weeks now and I suppose if there is a silver lining to be found in Keith's decision to shutter 93GS it is that, with the license back in play, anyone who thinks they could have done a better job is now free to put their money where their mouth is and prove it. I really don't mean for that to come across as bitter as that sounds because I have seen a lot of really good ideas tossed around here over the years and there is certainly a lot I would have done differently had it been my ship to steer. Running a boutique RPG publishing outfit is a near-zero margin business, and not for the likes of me to pull what's left of my hair out over - but I really look forward to somebody scraping up that seed money and presenting the owner with the business plan that will allow them to pick up that torch and run with it. For what it's worth, my career as a Twilight:2000 fanboy has been long and distinguished and my playtesting credentials are impeccable. Excellent references provided upon request. Good luck, you're on your own.

[Gorbag]

Well, poo. This is a bummer. Does this mean I've got to hurry up and get all the sourcebook pdf's I'm lacking before they go away into the ether?

[Targan]

Well, poo. This is a bummer. Does this mean I've got to hurry up and get all the sourcebook pdf's I'm lacking before they go away into the ether?

I guess the answer is yes.

[kota1342000]

DAMMIT!!!
Well, great job with Twilight 2013. In any case, you've helped keep my favorite game alive and made some interesting updates to the game world. I'm not free of criticism of certain parts of 2013 but overall I'm impressed. If 93 is closing the doors then there's good reasons for it and my only gripe is that it sucks that 93 is going away.

[helbent4]

Group,

I thought I would pass along that DriveThruRPG is bundling most or all the T2013 material. If you have ten bones (USD $10.00) left over from buying Christmas presents, you can have all the necessary material to run Reflex with your T2K game (including Tegyirus' vehicle rules).

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=64418{1}1

Tony

[Tegyrius]

Actually, I'm not aware of Keith having published the vehicle errata in anything on DriveThru. That's posted in the core book errata thread on 93GS' forums (http://www.93gamesstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1988). It's also available in my unpublished manuscript for Driver's Guide: Czech Your Engine, which I've made available for free on my own site (http://web.mac.com/c_oliver/2013/Drivers_Guide_Czech_Your_Engine.pdf).

Still, ten bucks for setting, rules, Everytown, and five Shooter's Guides ain't a bad deal.

- C.

[helbent4]

Actually, I'm not aware of Keith having published the vehicle errata in anything on DriveThru. That's posted in the core book errata thread on 93GS' forums (http://www.93gamesstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1988). It's also available in my unpublished manuscript for Driver's Guide: Czech Your Engine, which I've made available for free on my own site (http://web.mac.com/c_oliver/2013/Drivers_Guide_Czech_Your_Engine.pdf).

- C.

Clayton,

Sorry, I meant to link your rules! They are not part of the bundle. Thanks for the correction, my mistake.

Tony

[Jason]

imo the Background sucked so bad I wish I had saved my money. not sad to see it go tbh

The background was flawed, yes, but saying that the background ruined the whole system is just wrong. I will take a superior game system with a crappy background over a crappy system with superior background 8 days a week. I end up modding most background info in whatever games I run, anyway.

The Reflex system is far and away the best small-unit combat rules system I have ever encountered. I suggest that any T2K fan would benefit from reading them.

[helbent4]

The background was flawed, yes, but saying that the background ruined the whole system is just wrong.

Jason,

I'm sure there are people that somehow don't think they're wrong in holding the opposite opinion. (If I may joke, it's good you've finally settled the debate; now we know where we stand we can all get on with our lives!) Either way, if people want to pick up the system to have a look, it's available at a reasonable price.

Tony

[Stich2.0]

Either way, if people want to pick up the system to have a look, it's available at a reasonable price.

Psst... it's also available for free.


Free!

[helbent4]

Psst... it's also available for free.


Free!

Stich,

Sure, now you're going to tell me there's some "magical" way to download movies and music to your computer without paying for it either, using some kind of electronic medium. Heresy!

If you live in Canada, you can download the core rules for free legally (or for that matter, anything else as long as you don't resell it) but not in the USA. When locating pirated copies of T2013 on a file-sharing site, I tend to find that not a lot of the supplemental material is available or conveniently bundled together.

Like many things in life, I could be mistaken!

Tony

[Mohoender]

Late to give an opinion but...

I think that it is sad that T2013 has ceased but I think that some decisions were made by 93 Games Studio that made the success of the game unlikely.

They certainly made some bad choices but we all do. They might have underestimated the task. However, I would advocate that most gamers current attitude made the success unlikely not their initial choices. Too often, we simply want too much people.


1. The game background is weak in places and is quite US centric. The details of the UK made me cringe and I read one comment (from an Australian) when the game was realeased that he suspected that the writers hadn't even looked at Australia on a map! It seemed to me that the game background was written for a US market without any thought to an international market as it plays heavily to US stereotype views of the rest of the world. My instant reaction as a GM therefore was that I would have to rewrite the game background or simply use the system in a different setting.

As it was the case with the initial game. However, I would agree with the idea on the map. However, for my parts, I'm not even sure that most americans even know what a map is (and this is spreading fast to Europeans). After all, while I was studying in US, a US student (senior in international political studies) told me that he whished to drive down to Germany (we were in Vermont!!). Of course, you still can drive through Canada, the Behring strait (provided you are in full winter with enough ice), all of Russia and Poland but that might be tricky... If we didn't have to rewrite T2... backgrounds we wouldn't be here in the first place.


2. There are some flaws in the combat rules (in my opinion) and that put several players I know off the game after an initial session.


Didn't go that far, with two little girls and too little available time, I always found the rules too heavy. I made the same mistake on my own game design and I'm know correcting it. I'll be reducing the character design phase from 50 to 10 pages and the rules from 20 to 4-5. Meanwhile, I'll expend the background section and edit books focused solely on background. The best in this is that it takes a couple of days to write a background while it takes a bunch of months to design the rules.;)


3. Their business model seems to focus around people purchasing pdf versions rather than actual books in most countries and that seems wrong to me. Most gamers (and the majority of T2k fans) are "older" gamers and are more likely to spend the money for a good quality hardback book (which is what they produced in some markets) rather than a pdf. None of the supplements were ever more than pdfs though (I believe).

When I was saying that we want too much. Without PDF, no RPG design is possible today. I won't do anything else, hard copy is nice but out of reach. Too expensive to make, Too expensive to send, takes too much place in your already full storage room, sending it to stores is also hell. I don't know elsewhere but, currently, in France, you only have two surviving so called rpg editors and these guys are only a bunch of incompetent lying a..h...s


4. They initially focussed on firearms supplements rather than sourcebooks or adventures and when they did release a sourcebook it was for their "Everytown" generic setting rather than the Czech sourcebook Tegyrius developed - http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2355


Here is a huge mistake, I agree. In the initial exchange I had with smokewolf, he told me that they were going to develop sourcebooks on countries (I'm still waiting for it). When, I saw the sourcebook on firearms I ceased to visit 93gamestudios. I tend not to care about big guns and big guys (but that just me). Not enough on vehicles, planes, ships..., also


It's sad when any game fails but I think that their approach was flawed in the first place.


You too hard on this, I think. You forget one thing, when you put yourself to such a huge task, you have to make choices and assume them. Just too bad that they couldn't change path. Terminating the project is their only bad choice IMO. Put it on hold, make your money and start it all over again.


They seem to be nice guys however so I hope that they do well in the future. They've done more to contribute to the gaming hobby as a whole than I've ever done!

I have suspended my own game for five years (I understand personnal reasons). I restarted the distribution over last summer. The funny part is that I sold more copies in three months that any shop in 7 years. I had the same problem that they had but I'm now working at correcting them and I hope to release a new version in 2011 along with an english version (at last). The point was simple: i needed to make a living first and to organize my life (didn't I said that twice already?:p). I hope that 93gamestudio will be capable of doing something similar. About hard copy, if anyone wants one, no problem, just get your cash ready. It could be sold at 100$ for only 10$ in PDF.:D

[helbent4]

Mohender,

We should really have a separate thread that goes like, "T2013 sucks! No, T2013 is awesome, YOU suck!"

Like it or not, this is a fan forum primarily for T2K. There is going to be an orientation in that direction from many people, although the list mods like Targan have made it clear that this forum has no real or implied anti-T2013 bias. In fact there's a lot of love for T2013 out there. Many would have been satisfied simply with an update and expansion of the rules if the background was largely unchanged, thus continuing a process stretching from v1 to v2 and v2.2 . I believe I understand some of 93GS's reasons for updating the background, although of course I wasn't party to the decision-making process in the slightest.

Although .pdfs are a boon to small companies like 93GS they do pose a problem in that it's relatively easy to pirate them. One could argue that free/pirated material is really no different than leafing through a book in a game store, and that people who actually want to run or play the game seriously eventually buy the books themselves. There's probably truth to both views, but small game companies simply don't have many cheap options.

Tony

[Tegyrius]

Psst... it's also available for free.


Free!
Oh, very classy.

- C.

[Stich2.0]

Oh, very classy.

- C.

Do you want a copy?

[Eddie]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/edthomas/popcorn1.gif

[cavtroop]

Do you want a copy?

Hopefully this asshat gets banned soon.

[Stich2.0]

Hopefully this asshat gets banned soon.

You can't win, Cavtroop. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

And don't call names!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111

I didn't do anything. Stop all the hatin.

[Raellus]

Hey guys, the mod hat is on. Keep it civil. No name calling or blatant provocations. You're free to share your opinions here as long as you do so in a mature, respectful manner.

[Eddie]

Keep it civil. No name calling or blatant provocations. You're free to share your opinions here as long as you do so in a mature, respectful manner.

So we're going to ignore illegal activity and preach good manners, instead?

I'm sure most of us, if not all, have downloaded something copyrighted, but to preach to do so in a public forum? Isn't that a little much? Especially when two of the creators of the copyrighted material are semi-frequent members of this forum...

[Raellus]

I'm sure most of us, if not all, have downloaded something copyrighted, but to preach to do so in a public forum? Isn't that a little much? Especially when two of the creators of the copyrighted material are semi-frequent members of this forum...

That was one of the "blatant provocations" that I was referring to. I will have a word with the individual advocating this as well.

[helbent4]

That was one of the "blatant provocations" that I was referring to. I will have a word with the individual advocating this as well.

Rae,

Maybe Kato or someone should add this into the New Member thread? It's hard to make a hard and fast rule on what is a gentleman's agreement.

That while it's recognised that copyright violation via file sharing is a fact of life, discussion or encouragement to do so with regards to T2013 is considered bad taste in this forum. In fact, all such discussion is best left to PMs or private emails.

Tony

[Snake Eyes]

Why only 2013? Is piracy of earlier versions OK or something?

[Stich2.0]

So we're going to ignore illegal activity and preach good manners, instead?

I'm sure most of us, if not all, have downloaded something copyrighted, but to preach to do so in a public forum? Isn't that a little much? Especially when two of the creators of the copyrighted material are semi-frequent members of this forum...

I noted that there are 1,251 copies successfully downloaded from just one site. I then considered that since this forum is one of the largest online communities for this particular game I'm absolutely sure I am not the only person here who believes that information ought to be shared.

BUT! I shall stop about the illegal activity (even though I live in a country with more freedom than the actual "land of the free" and so it isn't illegal). No need to send the sheriff after me with a stern warning. I get your point and I'll just keep it under my hat.

You have my word.
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1226/1283572145455.jpg

[Fusilier]

Why only 2013? Is piracy of earlier versions OK or something?

I think so. But that's just my opinion. Some people out there are interested in the game but can't afford the money to spare on a PDF, but costs 0$ for me to duplicate. If it means helping people enjoy the game (and participate in my online game) then I won't hesitate to do so.

I'm not going to encourage others to do the same, but I'm also not going to stop either. The more people with the opportunity to experience the 1/2.2 the better I think.

[helbent4]

Why only 2013? Is piracy of earlier versions OK or something?

Snake,

There's more of a hot button issue with T2103 as Tegyrius and others have worked on it, and it's a more current product. In other words it's more of a direct affront to them, personally. Not some point of abstract legal principle that isn't universal, largely given lip service where it is but otherwise mostly ignored.

Give T2013 twenty years like T2K, we'll see if anyone cares at that point about who's pirating it any more than T2K. At that point, I would welcome it if there were still a dedicated community and fan base for T2013, even if not all have paid. At least they're playing it or otherwise keeping it alive.

In the end I don't think anyone would flip if I were to mention that I just downloaded scans of all the SPI Moves magazines, S&T #1-60 and Ares magazine. Score! :cool:

Tony

[Raellus]

I think the issue with T2013 is that it's all just happened recently. The wounds are raw. Tegyrius and Keith just watched hundreds of hours of their hard work fall to pieces. They can still recoup some of their costs if people pay for the merch that they produced. This is not a cash cow. They'll be lucky if they break even. Actively undermining their efforts to recoup some of the costs on this forum is somewhat of a personal attack. That's what I don't want to see here. I'm not advocating that sort of wheeling and dealing here (I purchased both the v1.0 and v2.2 rulebooks- used- at over original cover price and I bought the original v1.0 box back in the day) but if you really must, please conduct that sort of business via PM.

As for earlier versions of T2K, the people that hold the liscenses and sell the PDFs had nothing, AFAIK, to do with the creation or sale IMO of the original T2K products. IMHO, it should all be open-source now (i.e. free), but that's not how it works. DriveThru and other "legit" sources must be making a killing selling PDFs since they cost nothing to produce. Whatever. I understand what Eddie and Snake are saying. We shouldn't be using a public forum to conduct activities that are technically illegal.

[Snake Eyes]

I guess somebody probably ought to check with Marc Miller and verify that pirating that other stuff is really OK with him. I'm sure he's cool with it. Not like there's any real money at stake.

Far Future Enterprises
1418 N Clinton Blvd
Bloomington, IL 61701 USA

Email: farfuture@gmail.com

http://www.farfuture.net

[Eddie]

Tegyrius and Keith just watched hundreds of hours of their hard work fall to pieces.

For the record, my name is on the Designed by: line as well. It's a little personal to me, too.

[helbent4]

I guess somebody probably ought to check with Marc Miller and verify that pirating that other stuff is really OK with him. I'm sure he's cool with it. Not like there's any real money at stake.


Snake,

When those mugs send me the T5 I pre-paid for, we'll talk. :p

(Not that I really mind, of course, my dough is going towards developing their future product.)

The truth is, I don't need Marc Miller to tell me what he thinks I should download, when or for what purpose. The laws and customs of where I live are different than yours, as all ya'all would say I don't have a dog in this hunt. Besides, I think we all use some copyright material without permission, it's not the end of the world.

As for T2013, I already bought two copies with real money, I'm encouraging others to do the same if they want, and there it is. Merry Christmas to you, and to everyone!

Tony

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Before people start blaming Far Future Enterprises for anything, they should remember that it's a one-man operation. Marc Miller, by himself with a little help from family and friends. If your order is a little late, send him an email and ask what's up, it's really that easy and he's alway been very approachable in the correspondance I've had with him.

Before people start claiming places like DriveThru RPG are making a profit from old GDW products, they are an authorised distributor and their authorization comes from Marc Miller, the legitimate licence holder for those old GDW products.

Before people start spruiking free downloads for anything, they should remember that this is an international forum and in some countries what you're advocating is illegal or unethical and at times just outright insulting to the originators of that material.
It's all well and good to claim that information should be shared but when you start distributing the hard work of someone for free, you prevent those people from making any money from their legitmate efforts. Why the hell would they then want to make more material for a hobby that doesn't give them a big return for their efforts in the first place. You're not sticking your fingers up at some megalithic corporation like Ha$bro here, you're simply screwing over a very small group of people who had hoped to make some contribution to the gaming community and at least get paid for their efforts.

BAH humbug! It's the 25th of December and I hate people already :(
No wonder I like cats & dogs better :p ;)

[Tegyrius]

Do you want a copy?
Look at your copy's title page.

Look at my sig line.

Now think long and hard about the degree of uninformed dickery you just displayed.

I noted that there are 1,251 copies successfully downloaded from just one site. I then considered that since this forum is one of the largest online communities for this particular game I'm absolutely sure I am not the only person here who believes that information ought to be shared.

BUT! I shall stop about the illegal activity (even though I live in a country with more freedom than the actual "land of the free" and so it isn't illegal). No need to send the sheriff after me with a stern warning. I get your point and I'll just keep it under my hat.
No, you don't even begin to get the point. But you gave us a number. Let's talk about that for a second.

The PDF you advocate pirating is currently at Gold sales ranking on DriveThruRPG, the venue that accounted for the vast majority of softcopy sales. Gold ranking means that product has sold between 501 and 1,000 copies (this isn't privileged data, BTW... the Gold ranking is on the product page and the correlation of sales to tiers is available with a little digging). So, by your data, lost sales from piracy are greater than actual softcopy sales.

1,251 copies. At $20/copy. Assuming DriveThru takes 50% of the gross (which is implausibly high - I think it's probably around 30%), that's $12,510 in lost revenue.

$12,510 in lost revenue for a one-man company that, to the best of my knowledge, is shutting down for financial reasons.

Congratulations. Your belief that information ought to be shared is a direct contributor to the demise of Keith's dream and the cessation of work on Twilight: 2013. I hope you enjoyed what you got because that's all there's going to be.

You have my word.
Don't bother. You've already shown us your idea of integrity.

- C.

[atiff]

Group,

I thought I would pass along that DriveThruRPG is bundling most or all the T2013 material. If you have ten bones (USD $10.00) left over from buying Christmas presents, you can have all the necessary material to run Reflex with your T2K game (including Tegyirus' vehicle rules).

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=64418{1}1

Tony

Thanks - purchased!

Edit - and I am glad I did.

[Raellus]

Before people start claiming places like DriveThru RPG are making a profit from old GDW products, they are an authorised distributor and their authorization comes from Marc Miller, the legitimate licence holder for those old GDW products.

Thanks for this info. I'd like to repeat that I do not advocate or condone illegal downloading or copyright infringement, but this does change my previously stated opinion regarding proprietary vs. open source status for the original Twilight 2000 materials.

Apparently, I'm not doing a very good job communicating.

[pmulcahy11b]

Thanks - purchased!

Edit - and I am glad I did.

I've been slowly replacing my poorly OCRed PDFs of my modules with ones bought from DriveThru RPG, so I guess I'm supporting the cause. I wish I could get complete copies of Challenge from DriveThru, however.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Tony,

There's atleast 4 of us on this forum that worked on the game (Teg, Eddie, Snake and I).



Snake,

There's more of a hot button issue with T2103 as Tegyrius and others have worked on it, and it's a more current product. In other words it's more of a direct affront to them, personally. Not some point of abstract legal principle that isn't universal, largely given lip service where it is but otherwise mostly ignored.

Give T2013 twenty years like T2K, we'll see if anyone cares at that point about who's pirating it any more than T2K. At that point, I would welcome it if there were still a dedicated community and fan base for T2013, even if not all have paid. At least they're playing it or otherwise keeping it alive.

In the end I don't think anyone would flip if I were to mention that I just downloaded scans of all the SPI Moves magazines, S&T #1-60 and Ares magazine. Score! :cool:

Tony

[helbent4]

Tony,

There's atleast 4 of us on this forum that worked on the game (Teg, Eddie, Snake and I).

Max,

That's wonderful to hear!

Kudos to you all for your work, as I said I picked up the bundle and may use it some time. If any of the money I've paid goes into your pockets then I'm more than happy. Further, I'm glad to direct people to where they can buy it as well, looks like at least one other person made a buy.

Even if you're not getting paid in some way, then if people are still playing T2013 in some form decades in the future then you have every right to be proud of your work.

Tony

[helbent4]

Group,

Does anyone know of where, other than the 93DG forum, I might find a compiled list of errata for T2013? I know there is a link on their forum. If 93DG is shutting down and any hypothetical buyer doesn't maintain the forum themselves this could be a serious problem. (I haven't checked the link, does it link to a .pdf or something?)

Thanks!

Tony

[Targan]

Perhaps it hasn't been clear enough in the past so let me make it crystal now - advocating piracy and copyright infringement on this forum is not acceptable behavior. Different posters will have their own views on whether the pirating of intellectual property is acceptable conduct and having your own opinion is just fine, but advocating such activities is going to get you a warning from the mods at the very least. Repeat offenders are likely to find themselves banned by Kato. I admit I've said some dumb things on this forum in the past and I'm not perfect. Talking about pirating a game system on a forum where many of that system's writers, designers and contributors are members isn't just dumb, its insensitive and insulting. Please, before engaging in that sort of post again stop and have a bit of a think before you hit the "Submit Reply" button.

Stich2.0 has offered an apology and given an undertaking that he will refrain from advocating piracy on this forum in the future. I intend to take him at his word. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time. I am now removing my "stern grownup" facial expression.