The location of the Pope during the Twilight War

[Targan]

Following Helbent4's excellent suggestion, here is a poll and a thread specifically to discuss the whereabouts of the Pope during the Twilight War.

[Raellus]

The Pope remained in Fascist Italy and then in Nazi German-occupied Italy, during WWII so why would he leave a [loosely] Soviet-allied Italy in WWIII? Is he scared of the Godless commies? The Nazis were not big fans of the Catholic faith/curch. Politically, Italy has often leaned to the left and, AFAIK, the papacy has never considered relocating to a more right-leaning country. Would the Soviets touch him? I doubt it. The political fallout, especially in largely Catholic South America and parts of Africa, would be too great, even in a F'ed-up T2K world. Why bother? Keep an eye on him and leave him be. If he steps out of line, orchestrate an "accident" or "illness" and lean on the college of cardinals to pick someone more acceptable as the next Pope. Come to think of it, if the Pope's inner circle caught wind of such a plot, he might try to relocate. But, I doubt that anyone but the most strong-willed and idealistic person would consider threatening his own life and position in a contest of wills with the Soviets and/or the hard-line Italian communist government. I think he'd stay put.

I'm seriously considering creating a T2K campaign centered around a group of French Foreign Legion commandos sent to Rome to kidnap the Pope and return him to French territory (or maybe neutral Switzerland).

[Adm.Lee]

I'm thinking a lot of the Vatican bureaucracy might be moved out of Rome when the nukes start flying, and if Rome is hit, they could reconstitute in southern Switzerland. John Paul II might have stayed in Rome himself to face his fate and try to help "his" city, so there might be a new Pope there.

If Rome isn't hit, then I can see him staying in the Vatican, and I doubt the Italian government-- pro-Soviet Socialist or not-- will move against him. In a war with NATO, I can't see the upside of calling into question the loyalty of millions of Italian Catholics.

[Legbreaker]

Yeah right... the guy drives around in an armored car when in public.

Fat lot of good that'll do against a nuke! ;)

I believe the pope (and majority of the catholic appratus) will stay in Rome right up until nukes start hitting the cities of the various belligerents. They may at that point head to France, but I doubt they'd stay long since there's certainly a number of viable targets there too (even if they are supposed to be neutral).
My guess is they may go to Spain, or even further afield, perhaps even Australia or one of the more stable regions of Central America.

The key to it is, in my opinion, communications. The Pope and his team need effective communications throughout the world to keep the church together and functioning on more than a local level. If they stay anywhere in Europe, those communications will be minimal at best - possibly limited to carrier pigeons and messengers. It's the same issue as faces Milgov and Civgov - if you can communicate, you can control.

[pmulcahy11b]

How about guarded by the Folgore Brigade or San Marcos Marines in an undisclosed location?

EDIT: to make it more Machiavellian, the Folgore Brigade or San Marcos Marines have made a deal with the French, and they are in France.

[Snake Eyes]

I'm seriously considering creating a T2K campaign centered around a group of French Foreign Legion commandos sent to Rome to kidnap the Pope and return him to French territory (or maybe neutral Switzerland).

I like the idea of an adventure featuring the Pope as the MacGuffin. Or the actual object. Whatever. Since JP2 was Polish, he might even be a good stand-in for the Black Madonna icon. It would be easy enough to hand-wave that his holiness was touring Silesia at a critical point near the outbreak of hostilities and has been holed up ever since in or around a place like the Jasna Gora with an ever dwindling sized squad of Swiss Guard. It would be kind of like in Jewel of the Nile ... where the "jewel" turns out to be a man and not a gem at all. Or not. Every faction on Earth (or at least in Europe) would have assets on the ground looking for him to either spirit him out of the country to safety, prop him up to unite a fractured Poland or to imprison and maybe silence him completely. The opportunity for conflict and danger would be endless as religious affiliations test national loyalties.

[dragoon500ly]

I can see the Pope staying in Rome until the nukes start flying and then reloacting to one of his castles in Central/South Italy. IF it became necessary for him to be evactuated out of Italy, Switzerland or Brazil would be likely locations.

[Canadian Army]

I think he would be Catholic University of Portugal; if he need to some where; and he would be guarded by the Corps of the Pontifical Swiss Guard or Swiss Guard.

[Rainbow Six]

My guess is stay in the Vatican until the nukes start flying around in Europe in mid Summer 1997, at which point the Pontiff and other senior members of the church's hierarchy relocate to Switzerland.

iirc Italy was a prime target for the second nuclear exchange in 1998, so it is possible such a relocation could have taken place sometime in 1998 rather than 1997.

I like the idea of an adventure featuring the Pope as the MacGuffin. Or the actual object. Whatever. Since JP2 was Polish, he might even be a good stand-in for the Black Madonna icon. It would be easy enough to hand-wave that his holiness was touring Silesia at a critical point near the outbreak of hostilities and has been holed up ever since in or around a place like the Jasna Gora with an ever dwindling sized squad of Swiss Guard. It would be kind of like in Jewel of the Nile ... where the "jewel" turns out to be a man and not a gem at all. Or not. Every faction on Earth (or at least in Europe) would have assets on the ground looking for him to either spirit him out of the country to safety, prop him up to unite a fractured Poland or to imprison and maybe silence him completely. The opportunity for conflict and danger would be endless as religious affiliations test national loyalties.

Years ago someone (sorry, I have no idea who) suggested an adventure scenario set in Poland where the PC's encounter a Roman Catholic Cardinal and a small group of Swiss Guards. They had a couple of trucks and were fanatical about protecting the contents of said trucks. The idea was that John Paul II had sought sanctuary in another country where he had died of natural causes. Prior to his death he had made it known that he wished to be buried in Poland and this group were attempting to fulfill that wish, with one of the trucks containing the Pope's body.

[Rainbow Six]

For those who take Challenge magazines as canon, Challenge #42 is the issue that has an article on Italy in 2300AD. The article makes various references to the Twilight War it seems very likely that Rome was nuked

from pg 25

"The Nuova Italia movement was based in Venice, the only city to escape nuclear attack. Nevertheless, Rome remained the focus for the "idea of Italy,~ and the return of central authority to a largely rebuilt Rome In 2100 represented the climax of over a century's work."

And from the same article

Pg 26

"Naturally defensible Perugia became the retreat of what was left of the papacy during World War III and has remained the papal city ever since."

[kato13]

Just curious who wrote the article?

Edit
Found it in my archives. Mark Galoetti wrote it. I was hoping it might be one of the core T2k writers.

Generally I consider Challenge Canon, but not 2300AD

[Slappy]

I went with France, but not necessarily voluntarily.

By '99 or '00 the security situation is going to get increasingly bad in Italy and quickly. I can see him looking to relocate. France isn't a bad choice. They have a catholic history, a big military, the ability to put him up in style and a decent communication network to use. I'm sure they would make the case to him. If he refused, maybe a little persuasion might be in order.

I'm actually now loving the idea of a mini-campaign based around a french diplomatic / commando team sent to secure the pope and return him and a few key (sympathetic to their cause) staff safely to France, whether he likes it or not.

[Legbreaker]

Although I see the attraction of Switzerland as a destination, I don't think it would be wise during a nuclear war.
The country is surrounded by beligerants, many of which have nukes and all of which certainly have plenty of targets, both hit and ignored (to date).
If the EMP doesn't completely screw up the communications the church relies upon, the radioative fallout is going to cause serious issues with the health of the generally older (and frailer) members of the church. As these older members are also form the upper "ranks", chances are that by late 1998 there's not going to be anyone left in positions of significant influence.
Food supplies are another issue that needs close scrutiny. Although we know in canon there was no nuclear winter as such, before, and even during the exchanges this concept would have preyed heavily on everyones minds. Locating an important organisation in an area that does not have a guarenteed food supply in such an event is, well, a blunder of the largest order.
Fuel, specifically for heating in winter is another factor to take into account. This particular issue is one that will cause tens, even hundreds of thousands of deaths throughout the continent. I beleive that (in recent times anyway) a lot of natural gas is pumped from the Soviet states to the west. Even here in Australia it's been almost front pages news when somewhere like the Ukraine cuts supply for political reasons (usually an arguement with Moscow) - a lot of people rely on the gas to prevent freezing to death and use in their kitchens.
This gas is certainly not still being pumped after December 1996, just in time for Christmas. Those who die from exposure at this time might be considered the lucky ones though considering what was to come over the next few years.

[Raellus]

It would be kind of like in Jewel of the Nile ... where the "jewel" turns out to be a man and not a gem at all. Or not. Every faction on Earth (or at least in Europe) would have assets on the ground looking for him to either spirit him out of the country to safety, prop him up to unite a fractured Poland or to imprison and maybe silence him completely. The opportunity for conflict and danger would be endless as religious affiliations test national loyalties.

Yes! A Jewel of the Nile reference! Hat's off to you, my friend.

I wonder if the Vatican has a bomb/fallout shelter. My guess would be that it does but I'm not sure how one would find out for sure.

Paul, I like your idea of involving Christain millenialists in a Pope-related scenario. Snake, I like your idea of substituting the Pope for the Black Madonna- that would make running an adventure easier since most of the work has already been done. It would also freshen up the BM module a bit for those who are already familiar with it. On the other hand, I'm kind of attracted to the idea of setting up a scenario in a new locale like Italy. I love the Poland modules but, in some ways, I'm kind of tired of the same old players. Setting the game in Italy would bring some new scenery and some new factions to the table.

[Targan]

For those who take Challenge magazines as canon, Challenge #42 is the issue that has an article on Italy in 2300AD. The article makes various references to the Twilight War it seems very likely that Rome was nuked

from pg 25

"The Nuova Italia movement was based in Venice, the only city to escape nuclear attack. Nevertheless, Rome remained the focus for the "idea of Italy,~ and the return of central authority to a largely rebuilt Rome In 2100 represented the climax of over a century's work."

And from the same article

Pg 26

"Naturally defensible Perugia became the retreat of what was left of the papacy during World War III and has remained the papal city ever since."

Thanks for the info RB6, I'd forgotten about the contents of that article. I take Challenge Mag articles and T:2300 to be canon (unless I have very good reason to do otherwise). I'm thinking that in light of that article I should have added a fifth poll option (relocates to another site in Italy) which in hindsight I would have voted for.

[B.T.]

I have not voted, yet.

If JP II. is the pope in the Twilight war, we should take in account, that he was the Pope, that travelled the most. In Wikipedia is an article on his travels.
Some of these travels might not have the same destination as IRL! In the later half of the 90ies the Pope visited severals states in the former Eastern Bloc - I don't think this had happened in T2k. But he would have been travelling to other States/countries.
Depending on his location (Choose your destination of the Popes "tour"!) he might stay at that place, when things get dense in Europe - Brazil is not unlikely (Dragoon mentioned Brazil before!).
If the Pope is in Europe, I can imagine, he'd like to stay in Rome, but leaves for an uncertain ammount of time to get back there, if the situation is more stable.

I think, France is not a bad destination - there had been Popes residing in Avignon (I don't remember who said in in the "People of Poland"-threat, but although some of the anti-Popes spent their time in Avignon, there had also been "official" Popes in Avignon!).
Switzerland is an option, another place in Italy is another one.
Still another country come to my mind: Ireland! It has a catholic population and it is not that likely as an aim for nukes!
If the Pope sees his new residence as a place of a temporary exile, he could stay allmost anywhere!

The idea of a SpecFor team trying to capture the Pope is a nice one. Maybe I'll have a try on this, too.

Edit: It was "Adm. Lee" in No. 35 of the "People of Poland" who mentioned Avignon as being not likely. Just in case someone was asking!

[Rainbow Six]

I wonder if the Vatican has a bomb/fallout shelter. My guess would be that it does but I'm not sure how one would find out for sure.


Apparently it does (I googled it...:))

http://www.nytimes.com/1982/02/22/world/around-the-world-vatican-plans-to-build-bomb-shelter-for-library.html

I'm thinking that in light of that article I should have added a fifth poll option (relocates to another site in Italy) which in hindsight I would have voted for.

It simply never occured to me as an option until I read the article again yesterday, but in hindsight, I, too, might have opted for it.

Although I see the attraction of Switzerland as a destination, I don't think it would be wise during a nuclear war...

Leg, you make valid points. Whilst I opted for Switzerland in the poll, I do think it's possible that the Papal party might move to Switzerland (or elsewhere in Italy) as a short term move in the summer of 1997 when the nukes start flying and then move on sometime in 1998 to another location where they could stay for a longer term (basically the duration of the War plus a period afterwards).

I think main contenders for this long term location would be either France or Spain. I did think about Brazil, but there's a lot of petrochem industry in Brazil, so I think it would be high on the list of neutral nations to be targetted. Another possibility might be Argentina. I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall Brazil and Argentina go to war with each other at some point, so that might also have a bearing on the matter - why leave Switzerland for Argentina if Argentina is now a war zone? On the other hand, the Pope might have arrived there before that war broke out.

[Slappy]

Doing a little poking around and thinking on this this morning.

It's also not clear how long JPII would have lived in T2k. IRL he lived to 2005, but apparently he began suffering from Parkinsons Disease as early as 1991. I'm sure that the pontiff would have had the best care available in '97-'99, but I don't know that it would have been enough in its degraded state to keep an increasingly frail man in his late 70s alive.

Points to the interesting mission mentioned by Rainbow Six to bury the pope, or the intrigue surrounding the election of a new pope after the death of JPII. The intrigue in the College of Cardinals would probably make the efforts to reconstitute the US Congress look like a tea party. Possible mission here with the players helping to support or thwart one of the candidates, either with violence or by retrieving some item, document or witness to swing the decision.

My guess is the the death would actually lead to the election of several popes. The French would be mad to not have one, there would be someone in Rome claiming the title, likely one or two elsewhere in Italy/Switzerland and possibly Brazil. Anywhere you can get 3-4 cardinals together you can have an election of some sort. AlsosSeems that any Bishop with a former papal estate and 100 guys with guns who say he's the Pope has at least a passing claim to the title, at least locally.

[WallShadow]

I entertained the idea that his Holiness had been on a goodwill tour in the US when the European theatre went nuclear. The papal aircraft and a body double returned to Rome; however, the Pope's advisors had actually convinced him to stay put in the US, outside most likely target areas. He chose to set up a low-key anonymous residence at the National Shrine of Our Lady of Czestochowa in Doylestown, PA. It's located far enough from Philly and the Delaware River targets to have survived intact. Dressed as regular clergy, he helped the shrine staff organize and operate an enclave to shelter, feed, and medically treat the refugees.

Surprisingly, the enclave has had virtually no problems with raiders or marauders thus far. Then, the Swiss Guard are being assisted by assigned bodyguards from State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security and the odd Catholic member of the SEALs/Delta Force/etc. They patrol and overwatch a large radius from the refuge. Lots of things can blow up, breakdown, or perhaps die in their sleep far enough away and in such a convincing manner to redirect the potential attackers, helping to dissuade such riff-raff from coming too close. ;)

(Wild rumors filter out about miraculous cures by a holy monk, and holy apparitions delivering holy vengeance against ill-intentioned interlopers.):cool:

[Raellus]

I like your creativity WallShadow but I wonder if the Pope wouldn't stay closer to home during a potentially global crisis like the full-scale Soviet invasion of China. It seems an almost inappropriate time to leave the Vatican and go on a goodwill tour of the U.S.

On the other hand, perhaps his trip was diplomatic. I'm not sure what his goal would be, though.

[mikeo80]

I like your creativity WallShadow but I wonder if the Pope wouldn't stay closer to home during a potentially global crisis like the full-scale Soviet invasion of China. It seems an almost inappropriate time to leave the Vatican and go on a goodwill tour of the U.S.

On the other hand, perhaps his trip was diplomatic. I'm not sure what his goal would be, though.

I agree with many of the posters here that PROBABLY JPII is the Pope, he would PROBABLY stay close to the Vatican, and the Swiss Guard would have a FAST jet ready to take His Holiness OUT OF TOWN if circumstances dictated it. (Anything I have read about the Swiss Guard, they are SWORN to die defending the Pope. But these are pragmatic men. If it looked to the Commander of the Swiss Guard that Rome was going to take a nuke in the shorts, JPII would be GONE....NOW!!!!!)

A visit to the USA would not be JPII's style, IMHO. THe man he portrayed on the world stage was a caring but very doctrinal parrish priest. If Europe is going up in flames, a Polish Pope would not leave HIS people.

(CHA-CHING)

And that's my two cents worth.

Mike

[kato13]

For what it is worth in the real world the Pope was traveling outside of Italy for about 40 days in 1997 (adding a bit to the list below to account for travel time). However 11 days of that was in Poland which probably would not happen in in any T2k time-line.

http://www.travelnotes.org/travel-write/travel_articles/general/farewell_pope_john_paul/97-98.htm


Edit
Also I can edit polls so I added "Relocates within Italy". If you want to change your existing answer to that, just post a note with what your previous selection was (so I can shift the numbers around).

[natehale1971]

For what it is worth in the real world the Pope was traveling outside of Italy for about 40 days in 1997 (adding a bit to the list below to account for travel time). However 11 days of that was in Poland which probably would not happen in in any T2k time-line.

http://www.travelnotes.org/travel-write/travel_articles/general/farewell_pope_john_paul/97-98.htm

Actually Kato, I think John Paul II would have gone into Poland in an attempt to promote peace, and get Polish support for getting in the way of a communist victory and independence for his people. He was a very amazing man of principles. I have a feeling in the world of T2k with the Soviet Union and collapse of Communism happening, JPII would have fought to remain healthy and vibrant so he could remain as a bedrock against communism. Many felt that his declining health came from his feeling that he was finally ABLE to stop fighting, to stop standing up against such a major threat to world peace and liberty.

[kato13]

Actually Kato, I think John Paul II would have gone into Poland in an attempt to promote peace, and get Polish support for getting in the way of a communist victory and independence for his people. He was a very amazing man of principles. I have a feeling in the world of T2k with the Soviet Union and collapse of Communism happening, JPII would have fought to remain healthy and vibrant so he could remain as a bedrock against communism. Many felt that his declining health came from his feeling that he was finally ABLE to stop fighting, to stop standing up against such a major threat to world peace and liberty.

I see your points, but I cannot see him being allowed to go into an active (and probably the highest intensity ever) war zone. What if a NATO (Or god forbid German) unit accidentally kills him. I can see him fighting communism in his own way with speeches or emissaries, but at this point he is the leader of the entire Catholic Church not just Europe, so I could see those around him convincing him that he has to stay out of harms way.

[natehale1971]

I see your points, but I cannot see him being allowed to go into an active (and probably the highest intensity ever) war zone. What if a NATO (Or god forbid German) unit accidentally kills him. I can see him fighting communism in his own way with speeches or emissaries, but at this point he is the leader of the entire Catholic Church not just Europe, so I could see those around him convincing him that he has to stay out of harms way.

Very true points... But knowing JPII, he'd go into the areas that are in NATO Hands with an armed escort of the Swiss Guard (thus providing a way that he'd not get accidentally killed by either side). JPII was a very... well, headstrong man. Even if not going into Poland he could have gone into East Germany on the Polish-E.German border speaking at rallies and the like.

Hell, this would actually work good for an adventure. That when the nukes started flying he was doing his tour and was hustled away for his safety. BUT NO ONE KNOWS WHERE he was hustled too. Only the Swiss Guard who got him to safety knows exactly where he is.

[Targan]

Also I can edit polls so I added "Relocates within Italy". If you want to change your existing answer to that, just post a note with what your previous selection was (so I can shift the numbers around).

Thanks Kato, please change my vote to "Relocates within Italy". While I'm not a total slave to canon, and T:2300 is fairly "loose canon" anyway (see what I did there LOL), the contention in Challenge #42 page 26 that Perugia became the new Papal City seems reasonable to me.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And whether we like it or not, Twilight: 2000 did actually grow from 2300 so it's not unreasonable to assume that they can both take a little something from each other to make them more compatible with each other.

[Legbreaker]

I agree that the situation in 2300 should be considered canon. There's roughly 300 years of history between the two, much of which is written by the victor (whoever they may be), which leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

The time from launch to impact of a strategic missile is what, 30-60 minutes give or take? At the shorter end that doesn't leave a lot of reaction time to get the Pope the hell out of the Vatican. Estimate 5-10 minutes from receiving the warning to having him on a helicopter bound for the airport. Add in a few more minutes if alls going well for flight time, then say five more minutes to swap over to a fixed wing and be in the air - and that's JUST in the air, not actually having cleared the area as yet. So, 20 minutes has passed already (on a good day).

Now, how many missiles are going to be detected at the moment of launch? Shall we add in a bit more time to consider confirmation of the launch? Time is getting a bit tight now...

That 30-60 minutes mentioned above is ICBM flight time. A launch from say Czechoslovakia against Rome (if it's the Soviets setting up NATO for the fall (or a quick jaunt across the Alps from southern Germany is going to be a LOT faster.

Bearing that in mind, once nukes start being used away from the front lines, the Pope would be MAD to stay put.

[pmulcahy11b]

The time from launch to impact of a strategic missile is what, 30-60 minutes give or take?

IIRC, the launch of an SLBM (submarine-launched ballistic missile) from a boomer to impact is only 3-8 minutes.

[natehale1971]

The time from launch to impact of a strategic missile is what, 30-60 minutes give or take? At the shorter end that doesn't leave a lot of reaction time to get the Pope the hell out of the Vatican. Estimate 5-10 minutes from receiving the warning to having him on a helicopter bound for the airport. Add in a few more minutes if alls going well for flight time, then say five more minutes to swap over to a fixed wing and be in the air - and that's JUST in the air, not actually having cleared the area as yet. So, 20 minutes has passed already (on a good day).

Now, how many missiles are going to be detected at the moment of launch? Shall we add in a bit more time to consider confirmation of the launch? Time is getting a bit tight now...

That 30-60 minutes mentioned above is ICBM flight time. A launch from say Czechoslovakia against Rome (if it's the Soviets setting up NATO for the fall (or a quick jaunt across the Alps from southern Germany is going to be a LOT faster.

Bearing that in mind, once nukes start being used away from the front lines, the Pope would be MAD to stay put.

Very true.. It would be better for the Pope to be evacuated from the Vatican via helicopter instead of jet. They'd be able to fly the helio OUT of the blast area in time. Thus the relocation of the Pope to somewhere in the Italian Republic or the Swiss Confederation works good.

Though I have a feeling that the Vatican had a retreat/BOL (Bug-Out Location) that they'd get the Pope and Cardinals too at the first sign of something going down. I read somewhere that the Vatican has a subterranean rail system they use for mail... perhaps they used the construction of that to cover the construction of a high-speed means of getting the Pope and others out of the Vatican ASAP.

Thanks to the link we were given earlier, we know that in 1982 a bomb shelter was built in the Vatican... And considering the priceless nature of the things being stored and protected there, we can surmise that it would take a direct hit to destroy it.

[Legbreaker]

I rather doubt anything above ground could be trusted to ensure the Pope's survival. EMP is a bitch especially when applied to complex machinery such as aircraft.

While the shelter and underground rail options are plausible, in my opinion the best, safest option is simply not to be there in the first place. Perhaps a double was used in the last few weeks/months and the Pope "telecommuted" from a much safer location elsewhere on the globe?

The Pope, and the church in general are certainly not nuclear targets in and of themselves, but the Vatican is in a rather vulnerable position being located in the capital of one of the major belligerents. While not exactly a huge issue in WWII, the exponential increase in destructive potential of weapons 50 years later is something else entirely.

[natehale1971]

I rather doubt anything above ground could be trusted to ensure the Pope's survival. EMP is a bitch especially when applied to complex machinery such as aircraft.

While the shelter and underground rail options are plausible, in my opinion the best, safest option is simply not to be there in the first place. Perhaps a double was used in the last few weeks/months and the Pope "telecommuted" from a much safer location elsewhere on the globe?

The Pope, and the church in general are certainly not nuclear targets in and of themselves, but the Vatican is in a rather vulnerable position being located in the capital of one of the major belligerents. While not exactly a huge issue in WWII, the exponential increase in destructive potential of weapons 50 years later is something else entirely.

It makes me wonder that if the Pope had been in Rome when the nukes started to fly that they would have just moved the Pope to the bomb shelter and sealed it up. Waited until after the rads died down enough (and checked to make sure the subterranean rail was still functioning) and get him out then.

[Snake Eyes]

I originally went with Switzerland but I really think at the first sign of nukes, the pontiff would be moved by submarine to his secret hollowed-out volcano lair.

At least that's how I'd play it.

[helbent4]

I originally went with Switzerland but I really think at the first sign of nukes, the pontiff would be moved by submarine to his secret hollowed-out volcano lair.

At least that's how I'd play it.

That gets my vote for sure!

While not changing my vote from Switzerland to relocating within Italy, there's nothing to say the Papacy could not move around.

The Pope could be evacuated by helicopter, because even civilians ones can be hardened for EMP or simply use a very old model. Possibly to Switzerland for a short period. Fallout is something that could be dealt with in that time (it's very short-lived), and the Swiss are quire knowledgeable about the hazards. Worldwide communications would be possible using radio; although EMP is a considerable hazard it's not insurmountable and some kind of papal bunker would at least have spare radio sets and comms equipment. It's not like there wasn't enough warning!

Afterwards, he could relocate to Perugia once the Vatican is re-established there. If Venice is the only non-nuked city, it's hard to see why the Vatican wouldn't relocate there. As for the man, if he dies with Rome, another pope would be chosen.

I do like the possibilities in having the Pope's body tour Poland. I could also see the French providing logistical support or transportation to gain favour with the world-wide church. As well, a relocation to the USA for some reason is interesting but not likely-seeming.

Tony

[firewalker]

dang ya know I’ve been kind of poking away at this for years know (show's me about keeping up with the boards) if i can find the time from work I’ll see if i can through something more thought out up here.

Till thin i got a couple of quick questions. We have some canon on Italy not real detailed about what’s happening during the war true but what's happening in Switzerland?

Also i wonder if we could do with a little more of a time line in regards to this poll.

1.the start of the war and it's build up to true twilight war (nuk escalation primarily). At first not that deferent than standard business with an increasing amount of politics of the "encouraging peace" type.

2.the lat stage grind. primarily the bit just before and right round the last grate push before the final calapas of the ability to support modern cvilation. Same as every body else stay alive and maintain as much functionality as possible.

3.aftermath (standard game setting). assessment and rebuilding especially of the churches communications ability’s. one thing this could defiantly included if the holy father has passed is an attempt to gather enough cardinals to hold a conclave.

[natehale1971]

There was a movie on Scy-fy (why the hell did they change it from Sci-Fi, i don't know) that had James Brolin in it as a father of two sons who were salvaging cities that were now under water due to the rising water levels that was putting most of the world under the sea.

The reason i bring this up, was the fact the Vatican was located at 'New Rome' (up on the higher ground near the original Rome) with the new Vatican compound able to look down on the Bay of Rome where the old Vatican was still under water...

The new Vatican had as much of the old Vatican feel that they could get. Not just the Swiss Guard in their distinctive uniforms, and architecture that looks so much like the original. I don't know where the monestaries or historically significant locations in the Roman Catholic church. But places like this, would definitely be possible evacuation locations of not only the Pope... but other members of the church leadership.

And we have to look at the kinds of things the church would be doing to help survivors get back up on their feet. The Church would be a good thing for communities to rally around, and it would be one of the things the Church leadership would know and try to use.

The church would more than likely be the FIRST to get a stable communications network set up... namely because the church has proven itself excellent at setting these up.

[Fusilier]

And we have to look at the kinds of things the church would be doing to help survivors get back up on their feet.

Up on their feet, implying of course that is where they want them to be.

[natehale1971]

Up on their feet, implying of course that is where they want them to be.

I think they would... having people who are able to feed themselves, means that they will be able to give extra to the church to feed the church leaders or even send it to other communities to help them get back on their feet.

[Legbreaker]

The church would more than likely be the FIRST to get a stable communications network set up... namely because the church has proven itself excellent at setting these up.

And (hopefully) nobody is shooting at them all the time...

[firewalker]

Up on their feet, implying of course that is where they want them to be.

Why not even with a full dose of cynicism the deference between well feed organized powerful followers and a rabble of starving defenseless sad sacs is pretty easy? Even if were talking about the dud that look's around at his 100 loyal shooters and decides he wants’ to be pope (as well as secretary general of the UN and prince of the moon while he’s at it) is probley going to won’t to build up his "resources".

Any way there's a couple of things to keep in mind about the organization of the Catholic Church (some of this would also probley apply to other NGO typ's) first of its actually fairly decentrized at lest in a lot of the nut's and bolt’s type of things that would be mostly of interest to PC. Bishops and cardinals are generally in charge of there own arrears with the hiarcy providing an avenue for resource sharing and off course doctrinarian over site and frankly the last isn't going to be having much effect on the PC (even if your running a catholic PC group). Think of the pope more as a source of basic policy direction and final arbitrator.

That being said there is a level above which ONLY the pope can do things. For example no pope no new bishops/cardinals even the ability of bishops to ordain regular priests is in fact done in the name of the pope.

So a church with a sitting pope, John Paul or who ever would be (depending on the point in the timeline)

1.reastabling communication among dioceses and parshirs. This would also included providing pastoral care (priests and deacons) to places with out.

2.using the rebuilt network to agine shear recourses across dioceses in aid of the church aim's


Were as a church with out a sitting pope (almost surely do to John Paul's death) would be.

1.atimpting to gather enough cardinals (there is a specific quorum requirement) for a conclave. Also indecently thay are going to want the prelates of the non-roman right's there if possible as well.

2. sucuring and escorting the new pope (assuming he an't there) to were ever he wants to be. as an aside there's nothing that say's somebody has to be in attendance at the conclave to be raised to the papacy....in fact the only actual requirement is that he be a confermind adult catholic (of any rite).


On a slightly related note what about the Dalie lama (sp?) ? On one hand Tibet is by default free (China not really existing as such anymore) however “free� probley dose mean more likely in anarchy.

[mikeo80]

Along the lines of JPII visiting various parts of Europe when the balloon goes up....

What if JPII, The Dali Lama, ArchBishop of Cantebury, and others were meeting in Switzerland (Nice, neutral country). Trying to calm everyones nerves. The Balloon goes up. Now the scurry as the various prelates, their security and the Swiss Army all try to secure the safety of these religious leader. Inject a team of Russian Spetznatz to try to decapitate the various religions mentioned. Followed by a team of American Delta, British SAS, and who knows who else to "save the day". Heck even the Mossad might come to the party.

I would think this kind of "keystone cop" scenerio would devolve into a major shoot em up in the middle of Geneva. And Just where ARE the various religious leaders???

Another two cents

Mike

[Legbreaker]

My understanding is that organised religion was heavily suppressed in the USSR. As they were the major partner (only one with any actual power really), I don't see religious leaders being in a position to apply any influence of note on the PACT. They would though hold significant sway on the west in my opinion, sway which while well intended, could interfere with the political preparations required for effective war-making.

[Raellus]

What if JPII, The Dali Lama, ArchBishop of Cantebury, and others were meeting in Switzerland...

Sounds like a set up for an off-color joke.

Seriously, though, it's a really interesting idea and it has a nice edge of plausibility. I wonder what they would do once the the war went nuclear and it became clear that their appeals were falling on deaf ears.

[Legbreaker]

I wonder what they would do once the the war went nuclear and it became clear that their appeals were falling on deaf ears.

Duck and cover? Or just fall to their knees and pray?

Taking all the religious leaders out in one hit could result in a seriously nasty religious war that would put the Spanish Inquisition, Crusades and all the various Jihad's put together to shame.

[mikeo80]

My understanding is that organised religion was heavily suppressed in the USSR. As they were the major partner (only one with any actual power really), I don't see religious leaders being in a position to apply any influence of note on the PACT. They would though hold significant sway on the west in my opinion, sway which while well intended, could interfere with the political preparations required for effective war-making.

What you say is very true. IRL, the USSR tried to become an non-religious country.... However, The Russian Orthodox Church was still alive and well during all of those years. Yes, the leaders I mentioned would have little or no influence on the Kremlin in T2K, the Primate of Moscow had a behind the scean voice that had to be acknowledged.

I do not think that anything JPII or any other religious leader said would interfere with the NATO prep for battle.

(The old joke, from Stalin I think, How many divisions does the Pope have?)

Mike

[Legbreaker]

It wouldn't interfere significantly on the military prep, but it would on the Politicians.
If/when the church was to throw in their two cents, any politician who wanted to stay in government would have to listen and act accordingly. The religious vote is powerful - take the US bible belt for example. What percentage of the population there is going to be listening to the Pope and other religious figures in preference to the politicians and Generals.
Once the ball was rolling though I doubt the church would have a lot of influence, but they'd be major factors in the time leading up to the decision to deploy. They might even have influence over the timeframes and manpower involved in the deployment.

[dragoon500ly]

It wouldn't interfere significantly on the military prep, but it would on the Politicians.
If/when the church was to throw in their two cents, any politician who wanted to stay in government would have to listen and act accordingly. The religious vote is powerful - take the US bible belt for example. What percentage of the population there is going to be listening to the Pope and other religious figures in preference to the politicians and Generals.
Once the ball was rolling though I doubt the church would have a lot of influence, but they'd be major factors in the time leading up to the decision to deploy. They might even have influence over the timeframes and manpower involved in the deployment.

The Bible Belt in the US is mostly Southern Baptist with sizable groups of Methodist and Pentatcostal (I know, my spelling sucks). The large Catholic areas are Louisiana, southern Mississippi, southern Alabama and Florida. This area has several military bases, as well as arsenals and ammunition plants. Its more likely that the area would go for MilGov or CivGov rather than PopeGov...

[Legbreaker]

Meh, whatever, but I'm sure you get my point. Religion (not just the Pope and the Catholic church) has influence to varying degrees all over the world. Might not directly impact on military matters, but it's going to be heavily intertwined in the political (despite what the US consitution may say).

[helbent4]

Meh, whatever, but I'm sure you get my point. Religion (not just the Pope and the Catholic church) has influence to varying degrees all over the world. Might not directly impact on military matters, but it's going to be heavily intertwined in the political (despite what the US consitution may say).

Leg,

I see what you're getting at. I don't see a separate religious government, the Catholic Church doesn't really work that way (any more) except perhaps where there is literally no government at all. Most of the time they would simply support whatever government was in place. Pushing for social or political justice isn't completely foreign to the Church (although that tends to be a lower-level thing) but it's not like they haven't cooperated or supported with military juntas or other corrupt regimes in the past.

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

(Remembering the picture in Ogre Miniatures where an Ogre Mk V is wearing the insignia of the Vatican.)

What are the capabilities of the Swiss Guards?

[Raellus]

I could see religious/military orders of marshal clergy popping up after the balloon goes up. Some conspiracy theorists see conservative blocs in the RCC like Opus Dei as capable of setting up such a thing. Perhaps you would even have armed factions within the Catholic fold- left-leaning liberation theologist backed groups and right-leaning Opus Dei backed groups. IN-fighting could be a real possibility.

I had one PC in my PbP (Brother Switek played by Snakeyes) who was a former monk turned CIA-backed partisan leader and an NPC, called the Bishop (so named for the chess piece), who was a former Polish Para before joining a monastic order before the war only to later become Gora-Kalwaria's militia commander in '98 or so.

[Legbreaker]

I don't see a separate religious government...
I'm not in any way advocating that there would be any type of religious government. All I am saying is that religion, both individuals and organisations, will apply political pressure on the various governments to act in a certain way.
This pressure will be more or less effective depending on where in the world it's going on - for example, Islam is going to have a MASSIVE input on policy and actions in Iran while Christianity, specifically Roman Catholism will be behind many of the decisions made in Italy. Over in the Far east, Buddism will shape events while up in the backwoods you might find a cult or three exerting influence on the local authorities.

Industry will also have similar clout with some governments - take the various lobby groups in the US for example. Note that just having money might be enough to exert influence in some countries, provided it's spread around and fills a few otherwise empty pockets.

[pmulcahy11b]

I could see religious/military orders of marshal clergy popping up after the balloon goes up. Some conspiracy theorists see conservative blocs in the RCC like Opus Dei as capable of setting up such a thing. Perhaps you would even have armed factions within the Catholic fold- left-leaning liberation theologist backed groups and right-leaning Opus Dei backed groups. IN-fighting could be a real possibility.

We could get real weird and have the Illuminati revive as an order, determined to preserve knowledge and rebuild civilization -- their image of civilization, of course.

[Legbreaker]

I just had a thought - the 10th Crusade with the Church armed with nukes!

A thousand years later and they're back.
If Christianity can't have the holy land, then nobody will! :rocketwho

Sounds like a really bad movie promo.... :D
Lets get Mel Gibson to play the leading role.

[dragoon500ly]

(Remembering the picture in Ogre Miniatures where an Ogre Mk V is wearing the insignia of the Vatican.)

What are the capabilities of the Swiss Guards?

They fulill two roles, they are the bodyguards of the Pope and the ceremonial guard of the Vatican.

They are never seen without the Michaelangelo-designed uniforms and halbreds/swords. But there is a lot of speculation about what is behind the scenes. Some of the requirements is that the Swiss Guard have served in the military, they must be Catholic and they swear an oath directly to the Pope.

During the shooting of the Pope, several Guardsmen were observed with pistols/smgs...

[dragoon500ly]

I just had a thought - the 10th Crusade with the Church armed with nukes!

A thousand years later and they're back.
If Christianity can't have the holy land, then nobody will! :rocketwho

Sounds like a really bad movie promo.... :D
Lets get Mel Gibson to play the leading role.

Sort of Mad Max/We were Soldiers meets the Passion...weird and scary!!!

[Raellus]

During the shooting of the Pope, several Guardsmen were observed with pistols/smgs...

I wonder what kind of firearms they use... Italian, Swiss, or other?

This discussion has been really interesting. There is a lot of food here for a pretty kick-ass module. Let's start with the factions...

The Pope and his loyal circle (including the Swiss guards)
Anti-papal members of the clergy
A shadowy Catholic secret society (Illuminati? Opus Dei? Other?) with unclear motives
Anti-church Italian military (leftists)
Pro-church Italian military
The French (DGSE, FFL commandos)
Soviets (KGB, GRU, Spetznaz)

You could throw in some Austrians, Jugolsavs, U.S. pro-CivGov forces in Jugoslavia... I'm sure there's even more.

[Trooper]

They fulill two roles, they are the bodyguards of the Pope and the ceremonial guard of the Vatican.

They are never seen without the Michaelangelo-designed uniforms and halbreds/swords. But there is a lot of speculation about what is behind the scenes. Some of the requirements is that the Swiss Guard have served in the military, they must be Catholic and they swear an oath directly to the Pope.

During the shooting of the Pope, several Guardsmen were observed with pistols/smgs...

Guardsmen are usually catholic german speaking young men from swiss countryside. They have normal swiss military training (conscription). Guardsmen are real soldiers even if they have lots of seremonial guarding duties. They use those fancy uniforms only on seremonial duties (armed with halberd and pepper spray). Yes they do have modern weapons, uniforms and equipment they just wont like to show them.

Life in switzerland is very boring and most people are very conservative. Joining swiss guard can be very vise choice if you dont want live very dull life in swiss farm or if you dont want boring customer service job from the nearest town or city.

You can meet swiss volunteers nearly anywhere in this planet. Swiss army is purely defensive force for defending Switzerland and its impossible to serve abroad.

[Targan]

Sort of Mad Max/We were Soldiers meets the Passion...weird and scary!!!

"We were clergy once, and mad"?

[Legbreaker]

A cross in one hand and grenade launcher in the other, he's "THE CONVERTER"!
Don't let the robes fool you...

:D

[firewalker]

i used to have a bunch more links but thay seam to have dispard someware.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/swiss_guard/index.htm


Raellus i once thought about having a militia/proto militant order poop up. The genesis being when the local marauder crew tried there stick on a monastery (and attended refugees and such) were one of the novices was in his previous life a green bary.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The subject of the Vatican and the Swiss Guards has come up before, these threads are worth reading
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=10016
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=517
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=1209

[pmulcahy11b]

A cross in one hand and grenade launcher in the other, he's "THE CONVERTER"!
Don't let the robes fool you...

:D

And he's armed with the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!

[Dog 6]

I had to vote " other " . I'd say he's dead by the year 2000

[Targan]

I had to vote " other " . I'd say he's dead by the year 2000

I think you misunderstand. The question isn't about the location of a specific Pope, the question is about the location of whoever the current Pope is during the Twilight War. As long as there are any cardinals left there will be an election to decide a new Pope after John Paul II dies. Unless you're arguing that following the death of John Paul II no new Pope would be elected? If so I think that is a valid position to take but I'd like to see your reasoning.

[Legbreaker]

If JPII was dead, and it occured during or after the nukes, then it's very likely there could be multiple claimants to the title. It's also possible that the individual claimants and their associated group could be unaware of others in existance.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think you misunderstand. The question isn't about the location of a specific Pope, the question is about the location of whoever the current Pope is during the Twilight War. As long as there are any cardinals left there will be an election to decide a new Pope after John Paul II dies. Unless you're arguing that following the death of John Paul II no new Pope would be elected? If so I think that is a valid position to take but I'd like to see your reasoning.

But if JPII is killed in the fighting, what are the chances you'll get a conclave together in the near future? Especially if the Vatican is destroyed and travel is impossible?

[Targan]

There were still Popes elected even during the worst of times during the Middle Ages. I agree that there may well end up being multiple Popes all vying for legitimacy but I doubt there would be no Pope at all for very long.

[Rainbow Six]

I agree with Targan and Leg - Regardless of whether a conclave can be formed or not, there will probably be several people claiming the title of Pope, with varying degrees of legitimacy.

[pmulcahy11b]

I agree with Targan and Leg - Regardless of whether a conclave can be formed or not, there will probably be several people claiming the title of Pope, with varying degrees of legitimacy.

What a world...a world full of popes...

[Rainbow Six]

As was alluded to earlier, I suppose it's not that dissimilar to the situation in the US where Civgov and Milgov are both claiming to be the Government. There would probably be countless other "Pretenders" throughout the World claiming various titles, positions, etc.

For example, I wouldn't be at all surprised if one or more persons in Russia tried to set themselves up as the new Tsar...

[Mohoender]

Hello Everyone, long time no talk for me (Too many real life matters to care for). Glad to see that you are still around:).

In my own game I left the Pope in Rome but that's perfectly personnal. Wiith a papal state ruling over Rome, Sardegna and Malta. I like the idea of Switzerland, so.

I can see many place where the pope could reside including Castle Gandolfo, San Marino, France, Malta and (why not) Spain or Portugal.

Something else could be interesting too, then, and that would be a rehearsal of the Middle Ages situation with two Popes. One in Rome (or Italy) and an anti-pope remaining again in Avignon (France) or elsewhere. A schism could be interesting.

Hope that this week and the coming chrystmas will leave me enough time to come back again.

In case, I don't, have some good times for years'end, all of you.:cool:

[helbent4]

Hello Everyone, long time no talk for me (Too many real life matters to care for). Glad to see that you are still around:).

Hope that this week and the coming chrystmas will leave me enough time to come back again.

In case, I don't, have some good times for years'end, all of you.:cool:

Mohender,

Glad to hear from you and that you can devote at least a little time to offer your opinion.

I think that a "multiple popes" scenario fits well into T2K. It's sort of how like the Black Madonna (BM) is a powerful instrument to inspire the faithful of Poland for both "good" or "evil". At least in some areas, religion is a real factor in T2K and the pope is therefore an element of political influence.

Instead of oneBM that influences Poland, the pope could wield global influence in the face of weak national governments. Unlike a unique painting, the pope is an office and there could be several of them.

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

I think the pope is in the pizza...old SNL joke...:p

[Legbreaker]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of JPII swallowing a nuke and there being multiple Popes in 2000 scattered about the planet.

[Targan]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of JPII swallowing a nuke and there being multiple Popes in 2000 scattered about the planet.

Yeah, that is a very plausible scenario.

[helbent4]

Yeah, that is a very plausible scenario.

Targan,

Hey, religion has played a surprisingly important part in many T2K adventures or scenarios. Having multiple popes kind of plays to that!

Tony

[natehale1971]

This is something I'm still working on... any suggestions for making it better would be nice!

The Military for the Vatican City-State:

With the growing rift between Italy and the rest of NATO that had started in the years leading up to the Sino-Soviet War, the Pope had become more and more concerned over the safety of the Vatican City-State with the upswing of anti-Papal violence (mostly acts of vandalism and muggings). To counter this, he chose to reestablish the volunteer militia formations of the Palatine Guard and the Noble Guard to assist the Pontifical Swiss Guard in their protective and defense duties.

But the formation of the Mediterranean Alliance and subsequent treaties with the USSR & Warsaw Pact, the Pope quietly ordered the reorganization of the two auxiliary forces.

The Noble Guard was reorganized as a professional military force of modern mechanized infantry, while the Palatine Guard remained as a volunteer militia with its personnel being equipped by the Vatican, whom also instituted a formal training regimen. At first the controversial decision of the Pope caused many to question the action, but it had drew attention away from the expansion of the size of the Swiss Guard, and while the Swiss Guard had been expanded the Pope did not allow for any exceptions or changes in recruitment and training personnel.

While this was happening, the Pope was attempting to work behind the scenes to get the Italian government to change course… but when all of his efforts failed he officially declared that the Vatican was going to enter into a state of Armed Neutrality, much like the Swiss Confederation. The Vatican quietly acquired through various front companies several mega-yachts that were quickly turned into floating Pontifical Palaces that were to be used as a mobile Vatican if anything happened to the Holy See itself.

To protect these floating Pontifical Palaces, the Vatican City-State was able to acquire small combat craft that would become the core of the modern Pontifical Navy. Such as the Swedish designed and built Combat Boat 90 to act as escorts. Each of the mega-yachts had the ability for helicopters to land on a reinforced stern flight deck.


The Ranks of the Vatican City-State:
Generalkapitän (Captain-General)
Oberst (Colonel)
Oberstleutnant (Colonel Lieutenant)
Major (Major)
Hauptmann (Captain)
Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant)
Leutnant (Lieutenant)
Feldwebel (Sergeant Major)
Wachtmeister (Sergeant)
Korporal (Corporal)
Vizekorporal (Vice Corporal)
Hellebardier (Halbardier)/Gardist (Guardsman)


The Corps of the Pontifical Swiss Guard or Swiss Guard (German: Schweizergarde, Italian: Guardia Svizzera Pontificia, Latin: Pontificia Cohors Helvetica, or Cohors Pedestris Helvetiorum a Sacra Custodia Pontificis) is something of an exception to the Swiss rulings of 1874 and 1927. It is a small force maintained by the Holy See and is responsible for the safety of the Pope, including the security of the Apostolic Palace. It serves as the de facto military of Vatican City.
The history of the Swiss Guards has its origins in the 15th century. Pope Sixtus IV (1471–1484) already made a previous alliance with the Swiss Confederation and built barracks in Via Pellegrino after foreseeing the possibility of recruiting Swiss mercenaries. The pact was renewed by Innocent VIII (1484–1492) in order to use them against the Duke of Milan. Alexander VI (1492–1503) later actually used the Swiss mercenaries during their alliance with the King of France. During the time of the Borgias, however, the Italian Wars began in which the Swiss mercenaries were a fixture in the front lines among the warring factions, sometimes for France and sometimes for the Holy See or the Holy Roman Empire. The mercenaries enlisted when they heard King Charles VIII of France was going to raise a war against Naples. Among the participants in the war against Naples was Cardinal Giuliano della Rovere, the future Pope Julius II (1503–1513), who was well acquainted with the Swiss having been Bishop of Lausanne years earlier. The expedition failed in part thanks to new alliances made by Alexander VI against the French. When Cardinal della Rovere became pope Julius II in 1503, he asked the Swiss Diet to provide him with a constant corps of 200 Swiss mercenaries. In September 1505, the first contingent of 150 soldiers started their march towards Rome, under the command of Kaspar von Silenen, and entered the city on January 22, 1506, today given as the official date of the Guard's foundation. "The Swiss see the sad situation of the Church of God, Mother of Christianity, and realize how grave and dangerous it is that any tyrant, avid for wealth, can assault with impunity, the common Mother of Christianity," declared Huldrych Zwingli, a Swiss Catholic who later became a Protestant reformer. Pope Julius II later granted them the title "Defenders of the Church's freedom".
The force has varied greatly in size over the years and has even been disbanded. Its first, and most significant, hostile engagement was on May 6, 1527 when 147 of the 189 Guards, including their commander, died fighting the troops of Holy Roman Emperor Charles V in the stand of the Swiss Guard during the Sack of Rome in order to allow Clement VII to escape through the Passetto di Borgo, escorted by the other 40 guards. The last stand battlefield is located on the left side of St Peter's Basilica, close to the Campo Santo Teutonico (German Graveyard).
The Swiss Guard has served the popes since the 16th century. Ceremonially, they shared duties in the Papal household with the Palatine Guard and Noble Guard, both of which were disbanded in 1970 under Paul VI. Today the Papal Swiss Guard have taken over the ceremonial roles of the former units. At the end of 2005, there were 135 members of the Swiss Guard. This number consisted of a Commandant (bearing the rank of oberst or Colonel), a chaplain, three officers, one sergeant major (feldwebel), 30 NCOs, and 99 halberdiers, the rank equivalent to private (so called because of their traditional Halberd).

The Noble Guard (Ital. Guardia Nobile) was one of the guard units of the Vatican. It was formed by Pope Pius VII in 1801 as a regiment of heavy cavalry. Initially, the regiment was tasked with providing escort for the Pope and other senior Princes of the Church, and missions within the Papal States at the behest of the pope. One of their first major duties was to escort Pius VII to Paris for the coronation of Napoleon Bonaparte. With the unification of Italy and the confiscation of the Papal States in 1870, the Noble Guard became a corps of foot guards.
The corps was a volunteer one - its members were not paid for their service, and had to pay for their own equipment. The commander of the corps was called the Captain. One of the subordinate positions within the corps was that of Hereditary Standard-Bearer, who was responsible for carrying the standard of the Catholic Church. The Noble Guard made its appearance in public only when the pope took part in a public function; when the pope withdrew, he was followed by the Noble Guard. During a vacancy of the Holy See, the corps stood at the service of the College of Cardinals.
During the Second World War, the Noble Guard shared responsibility with the Swiss Guard for the personal security of Pope Pius XII. For instance, when the Pope took his daily walk in the Vatican Gardens, two Noble Guardsmen followed at a distance. The guard was abolished by Pope Paul VI in 1970 as part of the reforms of the Church following Vatican II.

The Palatine Guard (Ital. Guardia Palatina d'Onore) was a military unit of the Vatican. It was formed in 1850 by Pope Pius IX, who ordered that the two militia units of the Papal States be amalgamated. The corps was formed as an infantry unit, and took part in watch-keeping in Rome as well as various battles, including the defense of Rome against soldiers from Piedmont. The Second World War was a high point in the history of the Palatine Guard.
In September 1943, when German troops occupied Rome in response to Italy's conclusion of an armistice with the Allies, the Guard was given the responsibility of protecting Vatican City, various Vatican properties in Rome, and the pope's summer villa at Castel Gandolfo. The guardsmen (mainly Roman shop keepers and office clerks) whose service had previously been limited to standing in ranks and presenting arms at ceremonial occasions, now found themselves patrolling the walls, gardens and courtyards of Vatican City and standing post at the entrances to papal buildings around the Eternal City. On more than one occasion this service resulted in violent confrontations with Italian Fascist police units working with the German authorities to arrest political refugees who were hiding in buildings protected by the Vatican. At the outbreak of the Second World War in September 1939 the Palatine Guard mustered some 500 men, but by the liberation of Rome in June 1944 the corps had grown to 2000 men. The corps was abolished in 1970 by Pope Paul VI as part of the reforms of the Church following the Second Vatican Council. Its former members were therefore invited to join a new group called the Saints Peter and Paul Association (Italian: Associazione SS. Pietro e Paolo), whose statutes were approved by the Holy Father on 24 April 1971.

The Corps of Gendarmerie of Vatican City (Ital. Corpo della Gendarmeria dello Stato della CittÃ* del Vaticano) is the gendarmerie, or police and security force, of Vatican City. The corps is responsible for security, public order, border control, traffic control, criminal investigation, and other general police duties in Vatican City. A small number of the corps' officers travel with the pope to provide close-in security for the pontiff. The corps has 130 personnel and is a part of the Security and Civil Defense Services Department (which also includes the Vatican Fire Brigade), an organ of the Governorate of Vatican City State.

The Papal Zouaves (Zuavi Pontifici) were an infantry force formed in defence of the Papal States. The Zuavi Pontifici were mainly young men, unmarried and Roman Catholic, who volunteered to assist Pope Pius IX in his struggle against the Italian Risorgimento. They wore a similar style of uniform to that of the French Zouaves but in grey with red trim. A grey and red kepi was substituted for the North African fez. All orders were given in French and the unit was commanded by a Swiss Colonel, M. Allet.
Nonetheless, the regiment was truly international, and by May 1868 numbered 4,592 men. At that time the unit was composed of 1,910 Dutch, 1,301 French, 686 Belgians, 157 Romans and Pontifical subjects, 135 Canadians, 101 Irish, 87 Prussians, 50 English, 32 Spaniards, 22 Germans from beyond Prussia, 19 Swiss, 14 Americans, 14 Neapolitans, 12 Modenese, 12 Poles, 10 Scots, 7 Austrians, 6 Portuguese, 6 Tuscans, three Maltese, two Russians and one volunteer each from the South Sea Islands, India, "Africa", Mexico, Peru and Circassia.
A British volunteer, Joseph Powell, noted in his account of his service with the Papal Zouaves, Two Years in the Pontifical Zouaves that at least three "blacks" (doubtless Africans) and one person from China served in the Zouaves.
Between February 1868 and September 1870 the number of Canadian volunteers, mainly from the francophone and Catholic province of Quebec, rose to seven contingents numbering some 500 men in total - with a contingent of 114 turning back to Canada because news had reached them of the surrender of the Papal States in September 1870.

[Adm.Lee]

I'll bet the Pope spent at least some time here:
http://www.comune.castelgandolfo.rm.it/GestImg.aspx?Data_Type=&IdImg=510&IdImc=14&IdSec=2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castel_gandolfo

This is the Pope's summer residence, in the Alban Hills, and also home of the Vatican Observatory, and its astronomy library. If you believe the Da Vinci code, this is where a lot of the secret books are.

[natehale1971]

I'll bet the Pope spent at least some time here:
http://www.comune.castelgandolfo.rm.it/GestImg.aspx?Data_Type=&IdImg=510&IdImc=14&IdSec=2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castel_gandolfo

This is the Pope's summer residence, in the Alban Hills, and also home of the Vatican Observatory, and its astronomy library. If you believe the Da Vinci code, this is where a lot of the secret books are.

Oh. this is nice. Definitely one of the places that he'd need to set up a method of protecting the place!

[pmulcahy11b]

The Vatican Library might be something worth defending...perhaps hustled out of town in special trucks in the dead of night.

[natehale1971]

The Vatican Library might be something worth defending...perhaps hustled out of town in special trucks in the dead of night.

yup... that fits with what happened in our campaign. The Vatican had evacuated a LOT of the stuff out in the middle of the night via the underground railway they had... They got as much out to scattered locations that they felt would be safe from nukes and looting. And looting was one of the biggest reasons the Pope gave for increasing the security for Papal Properties around the globe (and the growth of the Papal Defense Force).

It was the establishment of that security that provided cover for the arrivals of various priceless artifacts. But also the use of front organizations to purchase land in out of the way areas.

It's why i like the slow build up better.. It gives a lot more RP opportunities. Especially with NATO tasking a group of PCs on a mission like Black Madonna, but all over the globe. :)

[Stich2.0]

It was the establishment of that security that provided cover for the arrivals of various priceless artifacts. But also the use of front organizations to purchase land in out of the way areas.

Ooh nice! Out the way areas so the buggering of little boys will have an added layer of security and privacy.

[James Langham]

This is the background note from my history:

The Vatican and the Papal State
Joseph Stalin was once told that the Pope would be upset by an action retorted “how many divisions does he have?� In this he was correct that the papacy (the world's smallest country) had little military power. What he overlooked was the influence that was held over church members.
When the Sino-Soviet War erupted the Pope tried to act as an intermediary. Links with the Orthodox Church were used but little was achieved. As the conflict spread to Europe the Catholic Church had more of an influence with the Poles in particular (Poland was the only Pact country that had a military chaplains department). Nothing was achieved but many worried Poles seeing the Polish Pope trying to promote peace turned to the church for solace. The strain of all the effort (including flights to Washington and Moscow) was too much for the ailing pope. In 1996 as a fake alert of a nuclear attack resulted in his flight by helicopter to the papal retreat at Castle Gandolfo, he suffered a major heart attack (the 1982 bomb shelter was not felt to be secure enough unless evacuation was impossible in the time available). Despite the best efforts of his doctor and the escorting Swiss Guard (including an ex-special forces medic) he was pronounced dead shortly after arrival.
With the death of Pope John Paul II, the conclave met to elect a new pope. After much debate the compromise candidate Italian Cardinal Camilo was elected Pope. Taking the name Pope John, he considered his position. A conservative theologian he was a practical man who had spent much of his early pastoral work in the rural parts of Italy. In his youth he had been called up by the army and had spent six months fighting in Russia before a leg wound sent him home. Feeling that the Church needed to act decisively he took the opportunity to act when the nuclear exchanges devastated Italy. Appealing to the remnants of the police and military to join him, he also expanded the Swiss Guard (an offer many Swiss were eager to accept). This force was one of the few organised groups in central Italy. Combined with the network of small churches, monasteries and nunneries which form the backbone of a welfare state, the Vatican easily fills the power vacuum.
Using the Church network the Vatican had developed an excellent intelligence network (in particular the Jesuits were active in this). Hit by the communication difficulties of the present this network is less effective as information is difficult to get back to the centre. This is balanced by an ease of gathering information as most priests and many lay members feel a loyalty more to the church than state (especially in these troubled times when life is short and brutal).
Portrayals of Pope John provide an interesting contrast. To supporters he is seen as a stabilising influence on a shattered world and a leader of one of the few places where order can still be found. To detractors he is portrayed as an opportunist militarist who is betraying the spiritual legacy of the Church for temporal gain. His quiet non-public life prior to becoming pope leads to much discussion as to his character.
He has since coming to power spoken out against the Communists and in particular the Italian government. Critics have said that this is purely an attempt to discredit his biggest rival for power (indeed many Italians have flocked to his banner), others however have suggested that this is due to his service in World War Two.
His long term goals are also unknown. At present he controls the central part of Italy centred around Rome. Movement north would gain control of the more industrial Po region (although it has been thoroughly devastated) whilst movement south would probably bring conflict with the Mafia. What is known is that the French have offered him a home in France but as yet no response has been made to these offers.
As an interesting aside rumours persist that the body of Pope John Paul II has been returned to his home county of Poland under the escort of a select team of Papal Guard. It is unknown if this rumour is accurate.
At least one alternative Pope with a reasonable claim is known to exist. This is Pope Alexander who is currently based in France. He claims that the election was flawed as few cardinals from places such as South America could get to the election in time and that this was his main block of supporters. The French have carefully trod a line that means they back him without offending Pope John (at least until the results of offering him a home are apparent. Other popes are known to exist but none have any real claim to legitimacy.

[natehale1971]

Ooh nice! Out the way areas so the buggering of little boys will have an added layer of security and privacy.

I'm not gonna feed the troll, but i do think someone should point to them and say "let's shut them up before they grow"

[Fusilier]

I don't think this one is entirely a troll post.

[Panther Al]

Have to say JL- your point of view is really rather good. Its a logical way for the Holy See to have an Army again, without having to do a lot of hand waving- in fact, if you don't mind I'll steal it for my own timeline if you don't mind?

On the care and feeding bit... I wasn't going to say, but if you take that post and others, well...

[natehale1971]

JL's ideas for why the Pope does the build-up of the Papal Defense Forces, and they fit perfectly for a slow build-up to the Twilight War.

As for Trolls... popping in like that, with something totally off-topic and really asinine makes you Troll Bait in my book.

[helbent4]

Taking the name Pope John, he considered his position.

James,

A great body of work! There is one noticeable error: Popes are named sequentially. Pope John XXIII died in 1963, therefore the next Pope named "John" would be called Pope John XXIV. Popes are never referenced without the number.

Regarding the troll-bait comment, as a Catholic I don't even notice any more, much less get a rise. Now, I wonder if the Church's rules on marriage would be relaxed, perhaps to facilitate alliances with other churches, but somehow I think that would be too much to hope for!

Tony

[natehale1971]

Regarding the troll-bait comment, as a Catholic I don't even notice any more, much less get a rise. Now, I wonder if the Church's rules on marriage would be relaxed, perhaps to facilitate alliances with other churches, but somehow I think that would be too much to hope for!

Tony

Tony, I'm not a Catholic and thats not what is making me say something... but throwing in that kind of asinine comment for no good reason does nothing but cause thread drift or kill it. THAT's why I'm pointing it out. We are talking about something totally unrelated to what they threw out there, thus drawing us away from our topic.

[James Langham]

Thanks for the positive comments. Feel free to take whatever bits you want (after all some of you may find your own work incorporated in it!).

I had forgotten I needed to add the numbers, don't suppose you know what number Paul would be?

[helbent4]

Thanks for the positive comments. Feel free to take whatever bits you want (after all some of you may find your own work incorporated in it!).

I had forgotten I needed to add the numbers, don't suppose you know what number Paul would be?

James,

Ha, yes, I think the next in the series would be Pope John XXIV (Blessed John XXIII died in 1963).

All-in-all, a good and useful bit of history/background.

Tony

[Adm.Lee]

Thanks for the positive comments. Feel free to take whatever bits you want (after all some of you may find your own work incorporated in it!).

I had forgotten I needed to add the numbers, don't suppose you know what number Paul would be?

Paul VI was Pope between John XXIII and John Paul I, or 1963-1978.

[Adm.Lee]

Thinking a little, I wonder if a new Pope might have taken the name of Pius, after the two that reigned during the previous World Wars?

[helbent4]

Thinking a little, I wonder if a new Pope might have taken the name of Pius, after the two that reigned during the previous World Wars?

Adm.,

I think there's a saying that the times are delivered unto them the pope that is needed and/or deserved, or something along those lines. There would be a certain historical symmetry to having another wartime pope by the same name. In this case, Pope Pius XIII. Of course, the new pope may want to chart something of a more active course than his predecessors and might decide on a different name, but I think that's certainly plausible.

Tony

[James Langham]

Thinking a little, I wonder if a new Pope might have taken the name of Pius, after the two that reigned during the previous World Wars?

Not the best of omens. Mind you I might use that for a rival using it as an attempt at increasing his legitimacy.

[natehale1971]

Adm.,

I think there's a saying that the times are delivered unto them the pope that is needed and/or deserved, or something along those lines. There would be a certain historical symmetry to having another wartime pope by the same name. In this case, Pope Pius XIII. Of course, the new pope may want to chart something of a more active course than his predecessors and might decide on a different name, but I think that's certainly plausible.

Tony

Pope Pius XIII? The Thirteenth? wow.. that would be a good name for a Twilight War Pope. The Lucky Thirteenth!

I'm joking, but still... Pius XIII would work as a good omen for a name of a pope during a world war. Heck i might use that for "World War IV: A World In Flames" right-up.

[James Langham]

An expanded version of the original article I wrote with a few more details and adventure hooks.

Thanks to all those who contributed ideas.

[Raellus]

If we go with James Langham's Pope scenario and go with a fairly conservative, anti-communist Pope developing his own theocratic polity in Italy, I can see the Soviets supporting a more sympathetic Pope of their own, both in an attempt to counter the influence of the Italian Pope, but to build support among Catholics in WTO/disputed nations. To that end, they could either set up a rival Pope in Poland or perhaps in disputed and largely Catholic Austria. Austria, as a disputed territory, would be harder for neutrals or NATO to dismiss outright (as opposed to a Pope in a mostly communist-controlled country like Poland) and there might be multinational support for an Austrian pope among Austrian/German Catholics and the sizable pro-Soviet Italian military elements present there.

Even if it's not the Soviets behind an Austrian Pope, the place sounds so chaotic and overrun with foreign soldiers, setting up an Austrian Pope would be an interesting ploy by a warlord attempting to consolidate and/or expand control over his chunk of the country. There's a Catholic majority in Austria and Italy a sizable minority in Hungary, and not insubstantial minorities in Germany and the Czech half.

[Muti]

Some corrections:

Camilo is not correct, here in Italy the actual name is Camillo.

Universita degli Studi is wrong. Full name is Università degli Studi di Perugia that you can translate simply in University of Perugia.

The church is of Santa Giuliana, not Santa Guilania.

The church of San Bevignate is no more a church since 1860.

[James Langham]

Some corrections:

Camilo is not correct, here in Italy the actual name is Camillo.

Universita degli Studi is wrong. Full name is Università degli Studi di Perugia that you can translate simply in University of Perugia.

The church is of Santa Giuliana, not Santa Guilania.

The church of San Bevignate is no more a church since 1860.

Thanks, really useful corrections, I speak np Italian (just VERY poor Latin) and do not claim much useful knowledge of the subject. Anything else you feel would be useful to add in my next rewrite?

[Muti]

You're welcome James!

Just a thing, why don't you change the name of the Cardinal who become Pope? As I can imagine from the pictures in your PDF, your Camillo is the copy of "Don Camillo", a fictional priest of a comical TV series really famous in Italy during the 50s and the early 60s. This make me smile and I really can't take this idea seriously :D

[James Langham]

You're welcome James!

Just a thing, why don't you change the name of the Cardinal who become Pope? As I can imagine from the pictures in your PDF, your Camillo is the copy of "Don Camillo", a fictional priest of a comical TV series really famous in Italy during the 50s and the early 60s. This make me smile and I really can't take this idea seriously :D

He was indeed the prototype and I'm glad it made you smile, not a lot in TW2000 does that... Actually all my articles tend to have a few really subtle hidden jokes in, this is one of the more obvious ones. I may change the pictures for ones from the 1980s BBC version if I can find them.

[Blink_Dog]

I realize this is an older post but I thought I might add that if the Pope stays in the Holy See then the College of Cardinals would more than likely stay somewhere safe like Switzerland or the Azores islands. This way if the Pope dies then the Holy See does not put all it's eggs in one basket. Also there is a fair bit of "what to do if the nukes fly" in the Vatican II documents, like ordaining Bishops by other Bishops if things fall apart. The code of Canon law is another good volume for figuring out what would happen if.

[Silent Hunter UK]

IIRC, the launch of an SLBM (submarine-launched ballistic missile) from a boomer to impact is only 3-8 minutes.

Actually, it's a bit more complex than that and worth a thread of its own.

[Raellus]

Someone might have mentioned this already, but, if at any point the Pope is incommunicado for any significant period of time, chances are good that another Pope would be set up somewhere else. With global communications thoroughly wrecked, I could see Popes springing up on every continent. This could lead to a Greater Schism.

In my Austrian sourcebook, I have an Austrian city-state set up their own Pope, claiming that the Pope in Italy is a communist puppet. It's more a play to gain support from Austrian Catholics than anything else. Any move to establish an alternative Pope would likely be an almost purely political decision.

[Blink_Dog]

Someone might have mentioned this already, but, if at any point the Pope is incommunicado for any significant period of time, chances are good that another Pope would be set up somewhere else. With global communications thoroughly wrecked, I could see Popes springing up on every continent. This could lead to a Greater Schism.

In my Austrian sourcebook, I have an Austrian city-state set up their own Pope, claiming that the Pope in Italy is a communist puppet. It's more a play to gain support from Austrian Catholics than anything else. Any move to establish an alternative Pope would likely be an almost purely political decision.

Good points. Here is such an even in history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Schism

[Legbreaker]

Actually, it's a bit more complex than that and worth a thread of its own.

Please expand on that (perhaps in that new thread you mentioned).

[James Langham2]

As ever please feel free to pick holes.