some thoughts on bruce

[drashal]

and this is why i dont post ideas any more ty for reminding me

[dragoon500ly]

I've always had issues with Bruce the time traveller for exactly the reasons you brought up. If BTT is bopping back and forth across the team stream, then he has to know that his Project is going to have a major screwup and be delayed 150+ years, which leads to etc.etc.etc. Its short of like trying to keep all of the Doctor Who storylines straight, sooner or later you have to stop becuase it hurts too much...:D

If you approach it from another angle, Bruce and the Council of Tommorrow, then there are several kinky twists you can toss into the pie...namely just who is on the COT. Simply adding someone like Albert Einstein into the mix can open all kinds of possibilities (just what was he working on for the last ten years of his life?). I can see someone gathering some of the US/UK political/military/industrial/scientitific leaders and convincing them of an upcoming atomic war. Simply starting this in 1952 or so will convience them
of the dire consquences of the Soviets getting the Bomb, the development of IRBMs/ICBMs. Many of these people would already be familiar with maintaining secrecy due to their involvement with the Manhatten Project, it would be a logical step towards the Morrow Project.

Submitted for your appoval...from the Twilight Zone!

[natehale1971]

You also have to remember that Bruce E. Morrow was extremely adamant against the building of Prime Base because he KNEW it was going to fail. It says so in the Prime Base module. He did not want it built, but the Council for Tomorrow built Prime Base during one of his forays into the future. And when he got back, prime base was under construction and all he could do was fume about it. To make him happy the Council allowed him to put together the PHOENIX Team, a team that many have seen as a death squad. But they aren't. They are Bruce's ace in the hole as it were. A team of special forces operators who are dedicated to the US Constitution and the ideals of the Project... And know that if someone in (our out) of the Project become a treat to the Constitution, they can deal with it (goes back to the US Armed Forces oath to protect & defend the US Constitution against all enemies foreign & domestic).

Seeing Bruce as a cold and callus man is kind of... well, wrong. All of the modules and source material showed Bruce as being a kind and compassionate man, and one who tried to set the project up in a way that the loss of Prime Base wouldn't totally screw the pooch as it where, and it would still be able to do the right thing when the time comes.

[LBraden]

to quote Chief Miles Edward O'Brien "I hate temporal mechanics"

If we go with the now-accepted view of the "infinite quantum reality" theory, we can argue that Bruce was only travelling alone one reality, were, lets argue that humanity went tits up in 1989 (if I recall correctly), the US started rebuilding in 1994, was a strong power again in 2050, and lets say ended up with regular space travel to and fro Mars in 2100.

However, what could have happened was that he also saw the problem with having "Prime Base" and went back in time to try and stop it, but he could only travel linearly, in other words he could not go back a further 10 yrs to tell himself to double check and stop it.

As for Krell, we could argue he too has the ability to time travel, or that he is using a project cryobed

However, this all falls under the purview of Dulmer and Luskly, not an engineer.

[natehale1971]

As for Krell, we could argue he too has the ability to time travel, or that he is using a project cryobed


Actually that' what they called what Krell was doing. He and his most trusted Lieutenants used captured MP Cryotubes to sleep for a few decades, wake up and command the next wave of conquest. Then sleep for another couple decades as the forces build up, and do it all again.

[drashal]

removed

[natehale1971]

Ok i had to go back and check NO WHERE in any of the books does it say that bruce is the kind and genital sole , none of the cannon material has any bio material on him except the very short blip about his time travel ablity as for the Phoenix team um their goal is the project and the projects goals (which have never been full stated in canon) . not one word on the US Constitution at all in the whole module. they are not ex us military that is assumed but not 100 true only that they have seen combat.

the scary thing is after going back though all the books is the following

no where in the books dose it actually state what the goals of the project are besides restoring civilization (it never says how , why or what system of government should be used )(and if you know where in the canon material those are please tell me)

also note i am not trying to start a trolling war here so please dont slam me for this rebuttal i am coming from a canon point of view not a fan based add on pov

It's in the bloody main book, that the goal is to rebuild THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and set up a civilian government based on those ideals established by the constitution. And with my talks with both the ORIGINAL designers of the game and current owners of the game, the dedication is to rebuild the USA and reestablish a Constitutional Government is paramount of the goals of the Council for Tomorrow and the Project.

ALSO the fact is that I am going to be the one who is writing the Organizational Book on how the Project is going to be doing its work. Thus i'm not just pulling this out of my ass. Your rebuttal was rude in that you are claiming to know everything about this game, but you don't. Because check under "Wandering Warlock" and the strong hint that he's Bruce E. Morrow. That shows him to be a kind and compassionate man who takes a hard line against those communities that go against the ideals of the US Constitution.

But using your own logical, your ideal that he's a cold hearted bastard is totally out of character. because NO WHERE is that in the books. But him doing his damnedest to make sure the Project personnel are capable of doing their jobs, and that they wouldn't abuse their positions was one of his highest priorities. That's in every one of the books.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I would say that people need to take a step back, a couple of deep breaths and then re-read the game books AND provide edition numbers and page numbers next time they want to argue this because Drashal is correct in the statement that the main book does NOT state that the Project was set up to rebuild the USA following the ideals of the US Constitution. If it is stated as such in any of the editions, it may be that he doesn't have that particular one and it would be handy for future reference if we knew which edition it was.

The main book I have with me right now is the 3rd edition and what it says in the Introduction is, to quote...
"In 1962 a mysterious man known by the name of Bruce Edward Morrow, origin unknown, gathered nine of the country's leading industrialists into an organization known as the Council of Tomorrow"
Note the the name of the country isn't even mentioned, it seems to have been taken as given that the game would be distributed mainly in the USA and everyone would simply assume that the Project was in the USA (not an unfair assumption given that most RPGs were at that time from the US).
"What method of coercion he may have used to achieve this feat remains a matter mostly for conjecture. The concensus of noted historians indicates that Morrow was a rare form of esper. He seemed to have possessed the ability to transport himself and some small amount of nearby matter into or out of the future. Building a convincing argument from the future, he and the council structured an organization dedicated to the continued survival of the human race beyond the point of destruction."

Further down the Introduction, the end specifically, it states "Pledged to help humanity recover in whatever way they can, they can easily lose sight of their own ideals and adopt the brutal code of survival. They must find Prime Base and each other in order to survive. Will your team survive?"
It does state in paragraph two of the Introduction that the plan of the Project was "...to cryogenically freeze special teams and equipment to aid in the reconstruction of the U.S. after nuclear war." so in this instance we can see that it was indeed the plan of the Project to rebuild the USA but anything further than that is mere speculation or personal belief.

Even in the additional role playing supplement by H.N. Voss, there is no mention of the Project's goal being to rebuild the US based upon the ideals of the constitution.
As for the Wandering Warlock, in the 3rd edition it definitely hints that the man is Morrow but it definitely does not say that he takes a hardline against communities that go against the ideals of the US Constitution. In fact it doesn't say much at all about him, certainly nothing to give the idea that he is a time traveller or a fighter for the constitution.
What it says about his character is as follows: -
"He always appears out of nowhere at times of crisis and seeks to help the common people. He has no tolerance of power seekers but will rarely become directly involved."


There's been a lot of years since the game was published and there's been a lot of pages on the net dedicated to the subject, the idea that the Project was dedicated to rebuilding the US along the lines of the constitution may well be desirable to some but it appears that it was a later addition to the game, either as an afterthought once the earlier editions (up to 3rd Ed. at least) had been released or in response to speculation by the fans.

[mikeo80]

I have a slightly different view of Bruce. Yes he could time travel, saw TEOTWAWKI, came back to found the C.O.T. to try and prepare.

BUT he sowed the seeds of TMP's failure.

I postulate that the COT not only set up TMP to save civilization from itself, but COT actively tried to change the world so that TEOTWAWKI would not happen. This alters the time line that Bruce knows about. So the 1989 that happened in the canon now come to pass. Prime Base falls. THe backups fail. THe project is screwed.

On another one of his future trips forward, Bruce changes from one set of realities to another. He is lost in the reality of "his" 1989. Hence the reality we discuss here in this forum of later dates, equipment upgrades, etc.

Another two cents from yours truly. :p

Mike

[natehale1971]

As i have stated, I've been talking with the game developers and will be writing the Project Sourcebook that details how the Morrow Project is suppose to work once it gets started. All of the developers stated that the goal was rebuild the republic along the lines of the constitution (the idea of why fix something that isn't broken, just being ignored).

Why would hundreds or thousands or even hundreds of thousands of people have volunteered for over thirty to fifty years to 'rebuild' the US without having something to hold onto and not let the secret out to some intrepid reporter or family member/loved one/best friends (even if just to warn them what was coming)?

The one thing the military maintains is its oath to protect and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic... this gives EVERYONE no matter their political beliefs something that can be held onto.

The Goal to rebuild the US was paramount in the project, and the one thing that the RIGHT AND LEFT can agree on is that the Constitution is the basic building blocks of BOTH Political Ideologies. Thus something EVERYONE can agree upon.

The Personnel in the project are composed of people of every ethnic group, every political persuasion, and religion imaginable. But what holds them together, what brings them all together to work as a single unit to rebuild a country that had moved so far away from it's founding document and showing signs of collapsing upon the weight of it's own bureaucracy?

If we were living by the way the constitution set things up, the Federal Government would be a neutral arbitrator when two states have a problem. That each of the states could set up the kind of government that its populace wanted, and those who disagreed with it could 'vote with their feet' and move to the next state over. It was a simple system that would allow states like California, Massachusetts and New York to pass laws that governed its people how they saw fit, as long as those laws did not violate the Bill of Rights.

Thus Massachusetts could pass a law that legalizes Homosexual Marriages, but states that do not believe in it, would not be legally bound to recognize them.

Most people forget that while the Federal Government was not allowed to establish a State Religion, each of the States had their own State Churches. And in some of those early states/commonwealths... those churches still exist, and you use to have to be a member of that church to hold political office.

I have talked with as many of the developers of the game on this subject many times. And I am the one the current owners of the game are going to get to write the Project Sourcebook, because they have seen all of my ideas and notes and felt that they have provided the best rationale on how the project should have been organized and ran. Because i look for the minute details and try and figure out how they would work in practice.

I read logistical manuals for how to make things like this work. When Kato said that Morrow Industries could use a UPS like company to cover their movements, I was like... Hell yes. That would explain a hell of a lot. Back in the 60s and 70s and early 80s such companies really didn't exist, and neither did community public storage complexes.

But those are things that the Project would use to cover their operations. But it's not in the cannon, but it works. It explains just how the project was able to move things about without drawing attention upon itself.

These are the things that the new edition will be taking into account. And will allow the new edition to bring new players to the game.

[natehale1971]

I have a slightly different view of Bruce. Yes he could time travel, saw TEOTWAWKI, came back to found the C.O.T. to try and prepare.

BUT he sowed the seeds of TMP's failure.

I postulate that the COT not only set up TMP to save civilization from itself, but COT actively tried to change the world so that TEOTWAWKI would not happen. This alters the time line that Bruce knows about. So the 1989 that happened in the canon now come to pass. Prime Base falls. THe backups fail. THe project is screwed.

On another one of his future trips forward, Bruce changes from one set of realities to another. He is lost in the reality of "his" 1989. Hence the reality we discuss here in this forum of later dates, equipment upgrades, etc.

Another two cents from yours truly. :p

Mike

Exactly! This is one of the things I had talked with Chris about, that each of the various timelines that sprang from Bruce's trips through time. Thus allowing GMs and Players to chose which of the timelines they are playing in.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

So this is new background material that is being written up for the 4th edition for Timeline Ltd?
I ask because none of the gaming material from 3rd Ed back has much in the way of background on the Project, its formation or its key personnel and so on.
Most of what I have seen on forums regarding Bruce Morrow & his thoughts on things, Krell & his possible connection to the Project, the numbers of people in the Project, Prime Base, the Phoenix Team etc. has been speculation or educated guess or at best, wishful thinking. People have thrashed it out because there has been so little canon material to work from but in some cases what has been stated is in direct contradiction to what's actually in the game material.

[natehale1971]

So this is new background material that is being written up for the 4th edition for Timeline Ltd?
I ask because none of the gaming material from 3rd Ed back has much in the way of background on the Project, its formation or its key personnel and so on.
Most of what I have seen on forums regarding Bruce Morrow & his thoughts on things, Krell & his possible connection to the Project, the numbers of people in the Project, Prime Base, the Phoenix Team etc. has been speculation or educated guess or at best, wishful thinking. People have thrashed it out because there has been so little canon material to work from but in some cases what has been stated is in direct contradiction to what's actually in the game material.

For the most part yes.

Even the Phoenix Team description tells WHY Bruce created them. Unfortunately, to many see them as a death squad instead of the SOCOM of the Project.

My thoughts that Krell was a protegee of Bruce has been bouncing around for a while, and the developers like that.. because the original thoughts on who he was, is that he was a disgruntled member of the Council for Tomorrow.

I've been talking with Tim McFadden (the author of Bullets and bluegrass), working with him on the drawings to illustrate the updated game module he's written. And working with him on making the official flag of the KFS.

[mikeo80]

For the most part yes.

Even the Phoenix Team description tells WHY Bruce created them. Unfortunately, to many see them as a death squad instead of the SOCOM of the Project.

My thoughts that Krell was a protegee of Bruce has been bouncing around for a while, and the developers like that.. because the original thoughts on who he was, is that he was a disgruntled member of the Council for Tomorrow.

I've been talking with Tim McFadden (the author of Bullets and bluegrass), working with him on the drawings to illustrate the updated game module he's written. And working with him on making the official flag of the KFS.

1) Nate, I am one of those who perceives Phoenix Team as a death squad. I am not sure, but I do not believe that even the hardest of hard core Mossad, Delta Team, SAS, or whatever, could be as lethal as Phoenix is portrayed.

2) Your perception of Krell is the same I have heard about/read about over the years.

Now, correct me if I seem silly. IF top level Morrow management got wind of Krell and what he/they were doing, wouldn't they unleash Phoenix? I propose this as a viable action BEFORE the big bang. Stop the problem NOW.

We have also postulated that Morrow and the GB's were very loosely aware of each other. The GB's would be a PERFECT scouting force. And of could terminate the problem with EXTREAM prejudice. :D

Another two cents from yours truely.

Mike

[natehale1971]

1) Nate, I am one of those who perceives Phoenix Team as a death squad. I am not sure, but I do not believe that even the hardest of hard core Mossad, Delta Team, SAS, or whatever, could be as lethal as Phoenix is portrayed.

Once again, I have to state that PHOENIX Team is the Project's version of SOCOM... a force that deals with the problems that the Project faces after TEOTWAWKI Event, but like any Special Operator... they hope that they will be activated only to be decomissioned and allowed to retire and enjoy a new life. Yes, the Prime Base Module portrayed the team as some of the coldest, and hardest operators out there. But also stressed that they were the most dedicated to the ideals of the Project, and that they had to pass some of the most extensive psyche evals imaginable to be on the team... and even then the Team got to vote on whether or not the new member STAYED on the team.. and that really doesn't sound like a death squad to me.

I think the biggest reason people think the team is a death squad is a throwaway line in the module where the Phoenix team would rather kill the team that woke them up instead of FORCING them out of Prime Base into the cold cruel world if they refused to go out RIGHT THEN. And i really think that line shouldn't have been in the module, because in all honesty... it just doesn't portray the kind of people that the Phoenix Team would be.

A friend of mine turned the Phoenix Team into a brain trust of Bruce's closest and most personal advisers.

But I really think that a few of those advisers would definitely be on the team as part of the leadership of the team...

2) Your perception of Krell is the same I have heard about/read about over the years.

Now, correct me if I seem silly. IF top level Morrow management got wind of Krell and what he/they were doing, wouldn't they unleash Phoenix? I propose this as a viable action BEFORE the big bang. Stop the problem NOW.

If they did that, they'd be no better than Krell... Going out before TEOTWAWKI Event would break all kinds of laws, and the one thing that the Project did not want to do draw attention to themselves. and anything they would have done to neutralize Krell and his pre-TEOTWAWKI Event would have drawn all kinds of attention.

We have also postulated that Morrow and the GB's were very loosely aware of each other. The GB's would be a PERFECT scouting force. And of could terminate the problem with EXTREAM prejudice. :D

Another two cents from yours truely.

Mike

I've always stated that the creation of the Snake-Eaters was done because Morrow had contacts at the highest levels of the US Federal Government (both executive & legislative branch)... and the Snake-Eaters were a totally military force that would deal with those kinds of problems that the Project MARS teams just couldn't deal with.

[dragoon500ly]

just some random thoughts....

Phoenix was always the last ditch defense of the Project. Bruce could never be sure that the snake-eaters wouldn't have a hidden agenda of their own. Phoenix gave him a weapon that was at least as good, if not superior to the snake-eaters. Doesn't mean that he wanted to use them, but Phoenix is charged with safe-guarding the Project...from all enemies foreign and domestic, right? This would explain their presence in Prime Base, and in some games I've took part in, there was a backup, frozen Prime Base, complete with a second Phoenix Team, just in case. I've never run across the assumption that Phoenix is a death squad and that idea generated some serious discussion in last night's game. The opinion of my five players is as listed above.

Krell has always been an off sort of villian to run. If Krell was one of the members of COT, then he was in a postion to cause very serious disruption to the project. I'm not talking about his attempt to nuke Prime, but in a position to have access to bolthole locations, not to mention the regional resupply bases, etc. This has serious consequences for the Project, because he would have direct access to the infrastructure of the Project, not just from a logistical point of view, but from a C3I viewpoint as well. Being able to monitor communications for example.

On the other hand, if Krell is run as a member of the Project, but not a COT member, you now have the warlord version. He is aware of the Project, he has access to some of the Project equipment, but he is not in a position to run boltholes or bases down, unless he gets wind of a rumor of Morrows...

It also safeguards Krell from the COT, since they wouldn't know what he was up to, then they would not be able to "sanction" him. IIRC there was a PBEM that had Krell as a gang banger that managed to pass the security protocol, get recruited, and due to his expertise with computers, was able to hack Project records and pass that info to other members of his gang so when TEOTWAWKI took place, this gang had someplace to go and create their own little kingdom.

[atiff]

HI all,

I don't play TMP, never read the books, etc... but just a comment of a general nature.

There are facts, and there are opinions. Facts are perceived by people in different ways, creating perception and influencing opinion. With regards to something like "a reason why," there can be a lot of different ones, depending on what you feel is probable. But just because something is not probable does not mean it is not possible.

Was it probable that I would now be living in a country other than the one of my birth? No, but it was possible, and in fact here I am doing that. Was is probable that I would now have a net worth of $10 million? No, and it didn't happen (unless you measure it in Zimbabwe dollars :) ). But it could have.

Things are as they are not necessarily because of things that were the most probable, but because of things that were possible. So as long as something is possible, I think it is worth considering, and can form the sound basis for a potential scenario. (And IMO this is why multiple timelines can be so much fun.) If you want to think more on this, consider reading "The Black Swan" by Nassim Taleb; I found it good (although, maybe that was not probable? :naughty:)

I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussions....

[drashal]

removed by user

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Personally, once I have the 4th edition I'll be purging any socio-political aspects of the Project from the game for two reasons.
1. Saving humanity from extinction is enough of a reason to convince people to join the Project. Some people don't actually need an appeal to patriotism to encourage them to help humanity - it just comes across as jingoistic, which leads me on to my second point.
2. Making the game so inwardly focused on the USA will definitely weaken its appeal to some new gamers, particularly those not from the US. RPGs have a global market and many of us not from the US aren't so interested in another game that is about playing American PCs doing the "mom and apple pie" thing for America. It's one part of the reason for the failure of 93 Games Studio's revision of Twilight: 2000.

I'll also be toning down the time travel aspects because with today's knowledge of technology and potential future tech, you don't need to have Morrow travelling into the future to bring back the tech to make the Project work. You start mucking about with time and you get the mess that plagues Star Trek and the Terminator series.
I've never been too thrilled with the idea that Morrow had a lot of future knowledge of things such as that Prime Base was doomed because I've always been more than happy with the write up from the actual module itself that basically implies that he, along with the COT believed that a central command & control facility was needed and Prime Base was to be it. All the "might have beens", "could have beens" and "what ifs" of multiple time travels ends up making the situation very messy for the poor SOB running the game and there's already plenty of time travel RPGs out there for those interested in that stuff.

[kato13]

Given the original time frame the Us versus Them mentality is totally acceptable IMO. If the Soviet Union survives into the 21st century in a particular time line I see the rivalry continuing.

I read some piece of supplemental material (I have no idea if it is fan generated or canon), about Morrow being about rebuilding the US faster than the Soviet Union post WWIII (to prepare for WWIV I guess). This made sense for me as something that the COT would latch onto. Yes getting individuals to join would be hard, but convincing multi=billionaires to change their paths would be even harder in my opinion.

The tech they are demonstrated will not bring them long term wealth or power. The decisions that they make are not for themselves. In a cold war environment I certainly see using the fear that the Red Bear will conquer everything as a significant motivator. Remember this project starts in the 50's and the USSR is going to be the source of the missiles that rip the heart out of the US.

Sure once the Bear is gone it is easy to forget them, but given the times the COT came out of, I am sure "beating" them in some way would be a focus.

[natehale1971]

Personally, once I have the 4th edition I'll be purging any socio-political aspects of the Project from the game for two reasons.
1. Saving humanity from extinction is enough of a reason to convince people to join the Project. Some people don't actually need an appeal to patriotism to encourage them to help humanity - it just comes across as jingoistic, which leads me on to my second point.
2. Making the game so inwardly focused on the USA will definitely weaken its appeal to some new gamers, particularly those not from the US. RPGs have a global market and many of us not from the US aren't so interested in another game that is about playing American PCs doing the "mom and apple pie" thing for America. It's one part of the reason for the failure of 93 Games Studio's revision of Twilight: 2000.

Socio-Political aspect? I don't see how reestablishing a constitutional republic is either to far to the right or the left. It's a building block that created the American republic... a Republic that has become the world's superpower in just a hundred and fifty years. The constitution has inspired other nations constitution's as well. It's something that EVERYONE can read and see that those ideals are universal. Ask the people who are immigrating here why they're coming... it's because of the American Dream that ANYONE can become the next big thing.

I'm sorry if you think that's chauvinistic. But it's not. I've talked to to many immigrants to this country (both legal and not) who said they came here for the opportunities that our Republic provided.

The Morrow Project was focused on the USA, but the Atlantis Project was focused on the rest of the world. So if the game seems too centred on the USA... well, it was set in a shattered USA in a post-TEOTWAWKI. And they didn't describe what happened to the rest of the world in the main book or other sourcebooks.

The reason why T2013 failed to catch on was many. Not the fact it was focused so heavily on the USA market.

I'll also be toning down the time travel aspects because with today's knowledge of technology and potential future tech, you don't need to have Morrow travelling into the future to bring back the tech to make the Project work. You start mucking about with time and you get the mess that plagues Star Trek and the Terminator series.
I've never been too thrilled with the idea that Morrow had a lot of future knowledge of things such as that Prime Base was doomed because I've always been more than happy with the write up from the actual module itself that basically implies that he, along with the COT believed that a central command & control facility was needed and Prime Base was to be it. All the "might have beens", "could have beens" and "what ifs" of multiple time travels ends up making the situation very messy for the poor SOB running the game and there's already plenty of time travel RPGs out there for those interested in that stuff.

Actually the module stressed that Bruce DID NOT want Prime Base. That he was overruled by CoT when he was away and when he returned the base was already under construction and couldn't be stopped. Bruce E. Morrow wanted a decentralized command and control that would have been based on regional command bases.

[natehale1971]

Given the original time frame the Us versus Them mentality is totally acceptable IMO. If the Soviet Union survives into the 21st century in a particular time line I see the rivalry continuing.

I read some piece of supplemental material (I have no idea if it is fan generated or canon), about Morrow being about rebuilding the US faster than the Soviet Union post WWIII (to prepare for WWIV I guess). This made sense for me as something that the COT would latch onto. Yes getting individuals to join would be hard, but convincing multi=billionaires to change their paths would be even harder in my opinion.

The tech they are demonstrated will not bring them long term wealth or power. The decisions that they make are not for themselves. In a cold war environment I certainly see using the fear that the Red Bear will conquer everything as a significant motivator. Remember this project starts in the 50's and the USSR is going to be the source of the missiles that rip the heart out of the US.

Sure once the Bear is gone it is easy to forget them, but given the times the COT came out of, I am sure "beating" them in some way would be a focus.

Exactly...

Using the Timetravel aspects also allows for the CoT trying to do what ever they could change the future. But each change they do only postponed TEOTWAWKI event, not stop it. Sort of like the Terminator movies.

[kato13]

While I am personally gung-ho about the Constitution, I never put it into my games with the same passion you are presenting. However I can see the logic of the Project using it as a core. It would much harder to recruit the COT and the tens of thousand of followers by saying "well anything we build is going to be based on our 'modified' form of the Constitution" or "We have come up with a new post EOTWaWKT governmental plan". Everyone would ask "Well wait what changes are you making?" and odds are a significant percentage would be upset with any particular change.

I am sure the COT would love some changes to the interstate commerce clause, just as I am sure a small percentage would want changes in the Roe vs Wade interpretation of the right to privacy. Once you start down that path you end up with something no one would accept.

Of course during the initial phases of reconstruction just about everything except is up for grabs, but bringing people back to the "normality" of the Prewar US being a long term goal makes sense.

[natehale1971]

While I am personally gung-ho about the Constitution, I never put it into my games with the same passion you are presenting. However I can see the logic of the Project using it as a core. It would much harder to recruit the COT and the tens of thousand of followers by saying "well anything we build is going to be based on our 'modified' form of the Constitution" or "We have come up with a new post EOTWaWKT governmental plan". Everyone would ask "Well wait what changes are you making?" and odds are a significant percentage would be upset with any particular change.

I am sure the COT would love some changes to the interstate commerce clause, just as I am sure a small percentage would want changes in the Roe vs Wade interpretation of the right to privacy. Once you start down that path you end up with something no one would accept.

Of course during the initial phases of reconstruction just about everything except is up for grabs, but bringing people back to the "normality" of the Prewar US being a long term goal makes sense.

That's exactly my point Kato... The Constitution was the basic building block that our Republic was founded upon. From it everything else springs forth from it.

But if i'm passionate about the Constitution, it comes from my ancestor SIGNING that document that has inspired so many wonderful (and yes, at times horrible) things to happen during the past 230+ years.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Socio-Political aspect? I don't see how reestablishing a constitutional republic is either to far to the right or the left. It's a building block that created the American republic... a Republic that has become the world's superpower in just a hundred and fifty years. The constitution has inspired other nations constitution's as well. It's something that EVERYONE can read and see that those ideals are universal. Ask the people who are immigrating here why they're coming... it's because of the American Dream that ANYONE can become the next big thing.

I'm sorry if you think that's chauvinistic. But it's not. I've talked to to many immigrants to this country (both legal and not) who said they came here for the opportunities that our Republic provided.

The Morrow Project was focused on the USA, but the Atlantis Project was focused on the rest of the world. So if the game seems too centred on the USA... well, it was set in a shattered USA in a post-TEOTWAWKI. And they didn't describe what happened to the rest of the world in the main book or other sourcebooks.

The reason why T2013 failed to catch on was many. Not the fact it was focused so heavily on the USA market.



Actually the module stressed that Bruce DID NOT want Prime Base. That he was overruled by CoT when he was away and when he returned the base was already under construction and couldn't be stopped. Bruce E. Morrow wanted a decentralized command and control that would have been based on regional command bases.

Nothing to do with chauvinism, everything to do with the fact that I am not from the USA and I like the game as it is in 3rd edition and I don't see a need to use the US constitution as a goad to make people join the Project. I couldn't give a rat's arse if it was the building block of anything or nothing, my aim with the game is to have fun and in the end, any deep philosophical or socio-political aspect is irrelevant because many players don't actually pay it that much attention.
And I'll say it again, those of us who aren't from the US, don't necessarily want to be playing games were the PCs are Americans saving America. We don't actually care about real world politics in games and some of us prefer not to have it so obvious.
Publish the Atlantis Project and this won't ever be an issue.

In regards to 2013, I think you should actually ask people not from the US what they thought of it. Too many gun books, too little about the rest of the world is a comment I hear often and that can easily be seen based on the products actually released. I base my statement on having spoken to gamers from Australia, Singapore, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, the UK, Ireland, Germany and Israel who all reiterated the same thing - I might be interested if it wasn't so focused on America.

[drashal]

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[kato13]

I think we all have to accept that there are huge gaps in canon and how we fill those gaps will vary wildly from person to person.

Yes we can quote chapter and verse of the Morrow "Scriptures", but just like any religious text much is left to individual interpretation (not to mention them also containing many contradictions).

Luckily each of us creates our own world and none of us are forced to play in another's.

[natehale1971]

this will probably get me kicked but have you really read prime base .... every time Bruce is listed in the book he is shown as supporting prime base btw that would be page 8 6th paragraph , page 10 11th paragraph ,and page 72 6th paragraph these are the only mentions of Bruce any where in the module

as for the Phoenix teams please read page 72 the breakdown of the requirements for the team , then page 73 paragraph 5 for what type of people you are dealing with.

what you are saying is conjecture and not canon i made a point that these are my thoughts on bruce but you are treating me like i have blasphemed for my ideas ,if the canon material was a little heavier on the fluff of the background then you make the claims you are making , but its not and slamming people for their ideas is not how you win supporters of yours for a long time i thought a lot of the ideas presented here where good ones but its obvious that you have come to the opinion that only your view point is right and we are all wrong .

i am sorry if this upsets you but i do not like being told that i am wrong when the published facts back me up.

If you claim to know every thing and then tell people they are wrong have your facts right. otherwise you get fubars like this

Actually I have read the damn thing multiple times, and ran the module three times for three different groups.

And you are definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

NO WHERE in any of the books does it describe Morrow as a heartless bastard as you have been portraying him in your posts.

And the module write-up does describe Phoenix Team as a SOCOM type group. Because one of those groups i ran through Prime Base, had a US Navy SEAL Chief Petty Officer, A US Army Special Forces Staff Sergeant and a US Air Force Combat Controller Technical Sergeant on it. And when i let them read the write-up for the Phoenix Team after we played he game they STRESSED that Phoenix trains like they did, wish they did not have to use the skills they have trained so damn hard to get. That when they are deployed they hit hard and fast without mercy. But it doesn't change the fact they are still human, and that they have a desire NOT to have to kill anyone.

A Death Squad is a group of cold blooded killers who go out and kill ANYONE who sees them when they go in and do their bloody work. SOCOM goes in like a scalpel and kills only those that they HAVE TO KILL and get out without anyone seeing them.

[natehale1971]

Nothing to do with chauvinism, everything to do with the fact that I am not from the USA and I like the game as it is in 3rd edition and I don't see a need to use the US constitution as a goad to make people join the Project. I couldn't give a rat's arse if it was the building block of anything or nothing, my aim with the game is to have fun and in the end, any deep philosophical or socio-political aspect is irrelevant because many players don't actually pay it that much attention.
And I'll say it again, those of us who aren't from the US, don't necessarily want to be playing games were the PCs are Americans saving America. We don't actually care about real world politics in games and some of us prefer not to have it so obvious.
Publish the Atlantis Project and this won't ever be an issue.

you know, you are a real horses arse with how you're acting. just because you're upset that an RPG that was from its design was about rebuilding the USA after a nuclear war is based in the USA and is focused on the USA... it really makes all of this so damn funny.

you are one of the ONLY people who i've talked in the past twenty-five years who's so damn pissed off about the Morrow Project RPG being so American focused.

the only 'socio-political aspect' would be putting faith on rebuilding the USA using the constitution to rally a shattered nation around. Because that would be the one thing that could get everyone behind it here. It would be just like the UK having the monarchy, and a project for reconstruction using the Crown as a way to rally the populace. If that was the way the game was set up, i don't know anyone who'd be pissed about that. Because the game would be set in the UK with UK values being the focus. It's like watching Sanctuary or Doctor Who.

Both are focused on the UK, and we love it just as it is. Hell, my soon to be ex-wife was stunned that i was such a dedicated constitutionalist republican when it came to the USA, but was a dedicated Monarchist when it came to the UK. I told her, "if it's not broke, don't fix it." And no, i don't hold the British People responsible for the horrors that woman has put me or my family through.

In regards to 2013, I think you should actually ask people not from the US what they thought of it. Too many gun books, too little about the rest of the world is a comment I hear often and that can easily be seen based on the products actually released. I base my statement on having spoken to gamers from Australia, Singapore, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, the UK, Ireland, Germany and Israel who all reiterated the same thing - I might be interested if it wasn't so focused on America.

I've talked with other games form all around the world about T2013 as well, and it wasn't the US-centred parts that upset then. it was the background's timeline that was just so screwed up and unbelievable. To them that was the hardest of the pills to swallow, not that their part of the world wasn't covered by what was going on in the world.

To them that allowed them to write their own sourcebook (something they say they prefered with just how screwed up the setting was) because they threw the setting as it was written out the window because they really didn't like how it was written.

[drashal]

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[natehale1971]

nor does it say that he is a kind and genital sole it has no background or personality on him but the blip in the opening of tm-1

If you had a high school education level reading comprehension ability you would have read that no where did i say that the phoenix team was a bunch of assassin what i said was

"Think about it Bruce would have to know about the disaster that will happen their. This really explains why the phoenix crew is their more than any thing else. They probably are the only folks in the entire project that knew what relay was going to happen. Here you have Bruce’s hand picked backup leadership team stashed away in the bottom of a base that he knows will be killed off (that’s really cold). And lets look at who he got killed off (most if not all of the pre collapse project leadership) (the Science teams their would have been mostly the admin and set thought pattern varieties) because he had the progressive Science personal assigned to the Science teams. No one in the prime base was really needed to start the rebuilding of a country. (Prime base is where the clerks and the bookkeepers went. heck probably all the law degrees that managed to get into the project where tier too)"


I think you realy need to back to school and learn to understand what you read not what you think you have read.

btw as for the government set up i rather use the CAS constitution than the USA one (preset term limits, set rules for interstate commerce , hard caps on what the federal government can and cant do) and before you call me a racist or something i said use the ideas of their constitution not their society or morals.

Before you tell ANYONE to go back to school, you need to at least learn to spell.

The CSA (Confederate States of America) constitution might have been good (well, it was almost a word for word copy of the US one), it EXPRESSLY permitted Slavery. Go read it again.

You might not been the one to call Phoenix a death squad, but others have, and they are the ones i was talking to.

One again, you are nothing more than a Pot calling a Kettle black.

The descriptions of Bruce is that he was not cold nor heartless. No one who is cold and heartless would do what he had done in the game background. That in of itself says alot about the man.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

you know, you are a real horses arse with how you're acting. just because you're upset that an RPG that was from its design was about rebuilding the USA after a nuclear war is based in the USA and is focused on the USA... it really makes all of this so damn funny.

I accept that we have very different views on the way the game is and how it could be. I see the Morrow Project as a lifeboat that sailed too late, you see it as a passenger liner, hell, maybe even a whole flotilla of passenger liners.
For me the charm of the game was that a small group of people got together in an effort to save humanity but they got there a little too late and now they struggle with the little they have so that they can survive and perhaps make a difference.
You're very gung ho for having the US constitution as a central tenent of the Project and having the Project along the lines of some huge governmental organization with plenty of supplies and having the knowledge that they would wake up 150 years after the war, okay that's fine, we're all different and have different ideas about our games.

I'm happy to argue game issues, canon or non-canon material or what's best for 'x' situation and I'm happy to accept that sometimes it might get a little heated because different people have different ideas but the real difference between you and I is that I prefer not to stoop to insulting someone just because they disagree with my personal beliefs.

[natehale1971]

I accept that we have very different views on the way the game is and how it could be. I see the Morrow Project as a lifeboat that sailed too late, you see it as a passenger liner, hell, maybe even a whole flotilla of passenger liners.
For me the charm of the game was that a small group of people got together in an effort to save humanity but they got there a little too late and now they struggle with the little they have so that they can survive and perhaps make a difference.
You're very gung ho for having the US constitution as a central tenent of the Project and having the Project along the lines of some huge governmental organization with plenty of supplies and having the knowledge that they would wake up 150 years after the war, okay that's fine, we're all different and have different ideas about our games.

I'm happy to argue game issues, canon or non-canon material or what's best for 'x' situation and I'm happy to accept that sometimes it might get a little heated because different people have different ideas but the real difference between you and I is that I prefer not to stoop to insulting someone just because they disagree with my personal beliefs.

Really? Because the way you're acting says otherwise.

I have not said it's a flotilla of passenger liners. Hell, the main books state that not even a FRACTION of the project has been activated. I've been writing about HOW the project was suppose to work AT THE TIME IT WAS SUPPOSE TO GO ACTIVE. Five to Ten years post-TEOTWAWKI. Not 150 years. If i was going for the project starting 150+ years after the event, there would be a hell of alot of things I'd be doing different.

The whole point of the game was that your characters were part of something LARGER than themselves, and that they are out of their element when they wake up. They were suppose to work within the framework of the Project. But when they wake up they find out that there was a major clusterfuck that's occurred and they are waking up in a situation where it's JUST THEM operating all on their own. They don't have the resources they were suppose to have, and they have to do the job all themselves.

My work is to show HOW the project was suppose to work. Do you really think ANYONE would have volunteered knowing they would wake up isolated without someone getting their backs?

I know I might, but i'm crazy that way. I've always put others needs ahead of my own. Even after all i've been through, i still put others ahead of myself, and have opened my home up to strangers so they can have a place to live instead of the streets more than once. And yes the first time i did it, i got screwed, but i'm still doing it.

you see things as just a lifeboat that set sail too late. if that was the case, even the team would be helpless and their mission hopeless. But of course the game books state that was not the case. Not even a fraction of the project and it's assets have been activated. The project IS a large thing, and once the Phoenix Team activated Prime Base they started to kick the project off. That was the entire purpose of that module. Even if the GM didn't activate Phoenix team or inculde it in his world. The PCs that discovered the base, were to get the entire project back on its feet.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I have not said it's a flotilla of passenger liners. Hell, the main books state that not even a FRACTION of the project has been activated. I've been writing about HOW the project was suppose to work AT THE TIME IT WAS SUPPOSE TO GO ACTIVE. Five to Ten years post-TEOTWAWKI. Not 150 years. If i was going for the project starting 150+ years after the event, there would be a hell of alot of things I'd be doing different.

The whole point of the game was that your characters were part of something LARGER than themselves, and that they are out of their element when they wake up. They were suppose to work within the framework of the Project. But when they wake up they find out that there was a major clusterfuck that's occurred and they are waking up in a situation where it's JUST THEM operating all on their own. They don't have the resources they were suppose to have, and they have to do the job all themselves.

My work is to show HOW the project was suppose to work. Do you really think ANYONE would have volunteered knowing they would wake up isolated without someone getting their backs?

I know I might, but i'm crazy that way. I've always put others needs ahead of my own. Even after all i've been through, i still put others ahead of myself, and have opened my home up to strangers so they can have a place to live instead of the streets more than once. And yes the first time i did it, i got screwed, but i'm still doing it.

you see things as just a lifeboat that set sail too late. if that was the case, even the team would be helpless and their mission hopeless. But of course the game books state that was not the case. Not even a fraction of the project and it's assets have been activated. The project IS a large thing, and once the Phoenix Team activated Prime Base they started to kick the project off. That was the entire purpose of that module. Even if the GM didn't activate Phoenix team or inculde it in his world. The PCs that discovered the base, were to get the entire project back on its feet.
This part I have no disagreement with, it's back to debating the information/issue at hand but this part...
Really? Because the way you're acting says otherwise.
You need to recognize and fully understand that I am not attacking you just because I have disagreed with the way you see the game but the statement above and your comment to Drashal ("Before you tell ANYONE to go back to school, you need to at least learn to spell.") makes me think that you believe we are trying to belittle/attack you. This is not the case.

I'm happy to argue about the game with you and if we could meet in real life we could shout at each other, grind our teeth, pull out our hair and glare at each other then buy some food or drinks (or both) and realize we are both as interested in the game but just see it in different ways. However, continued name-calling makes that entirely too unlikely and makes this forum a whole lot less pleasant to inhabit.

[natehale1971]

You need to recognize and fully understand that I am not attacking you just because I have disagreed with the way you see the game but the statement above and your comment to Drashal ("Before you tell ANYONE to go back to school, you need to at least learn to spell.") makes me think that you believe we are trying to belittle/attack you. This is not the case.

I'm happy to argue about the game with you and if we could meet in real life we could shout at each other, grind our teeth, pull out our hair and glare at each other then buy some food or drinks (or both) and realize we are both as interested in the game but just see it in different ways. However, continued name-calling makes that entirely too unlikely and makes this forum a whole lot less pleasant to inhabit.

Arguing the game is not the problem. but having someone who is obviously not taking this as constructive criticism, but making accusations someone needs to go back to school, and making statements that are not backed up by facts to attack me... that is an attack. My statement to go back to school ONLY happened after he made that attack.

I have read all of the books, i've been working on the Morrow Project Sourcebook that details how the Project was suppose to work in the 5 to 10 year timeframe that the project had been planned for. If it seems i've made the project large in my write-ups, it's because the scope of the mission of the project was so damn large.

Finding a way to locate people with the right skills during the 5 to 10 year post-TEOTWAWKI Event, is why i came up with the "Camp-in-a-Box" as it's been called. A way that the project administrators could find people by getting them to register when arriving at the camp (Something FEMA has set up for their relocation camps).

At no point have I stated that the Project is part of the Government, because it's a completely private civilian endeavor that does have connection to SOME people who are in the Executive Branch of the Government. With the time the Project had to get set up, of course someone associated with the Project is going to end up in a position in the Government to act as a way of keeping investigations being launched to FIND the project.

Because face it, anything as large as the Project would draw attention if they aren't careful. Someone is prone to get a wild hair and tell someone in the government or some reporter. It's why there had to be something major for the people to be dedicated to, that they would look past money or anything else to stay in the project.

For the UK, the ideal would be the Monarchy. For the US it's the Constitution. For the other regions/sectors of the Atlantis Project there would be something for each of the groups to focus upon. Something that can be rallied around to rebuild a nation upon.

That building block is different for each group. No one can be used for every nation, or people.

And you are acting like i can wave a wand and get the Atlantis Project published.... but I am sorry that can't do that, no one can. Tim & I talked about what's keeping 4th Edition from coming out. And it's not just a money issue. But it's a simple fact that they don't have the money right now to get it printed because of the way the damn economy is. And that's going to effect everything. I've got an appointment to speak with the owners of the game where I'm going to try to get them to go the PDF and Print-on-Demand route that will help with the costs.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And you are acting like i can wave a wand and get the Atlantis Project published....

Please do not ascribe actions on my part, it was an end of paragraph remark not a presumption that you could wave your hand and have it appear.

[natehale1971]

Please do not ascribe actions on my part, it was an end of paragraph remark not a presumption that you could wave your hand and have it appear.

That was not how it came across.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Here's my thoughts on why Bruce was a good guy and why I don't see the Project's end goal as just rebuilding the USA in the mold of the constitution.

Bruce was definitely one of the good guys, he cared enough about the entire human race that he set up a Project to preserve the human race from extinction in a nuclear war he knew was coming. If he had been uncaring, he could have just used the Project to save himself and his family & friends. If he'd been a real bastard, he would have just saved himself and his most trusted allies.
He might be seen as callous or uncaring because it can be argued that he can travel to the future so he can obviously see what's going to happen so why doesn't he stop it? I think there's a few reasons that can be given for this.
1. He might not be able to stop it no matter what he tries, fate has been determined already and no man can change it.
2. He might be able to change things but believes he should not because that could alter too many things and just make the problem worse. He doesn't know the outcome unless he constantly travels back and forth from the future and if he does do that, he might just makes things more complicated and therefore much worse.
3. He realizes that the Project is not going to wake up 3-5 years after the war, instead they will wake up 150 years after. However, having seen this, he has also seen that 150 years later is when the Project will really be needed the most because the world hasn't recovered well enough in over 100 years. He has to accept some deaths and misfortunes because the Project is actually needed further into the future and not just 5 years after the war ends.
However, if he tells people that this is what's going to happen, they will probably doubt they can pull it off, they'll believe that some of them will die in the process because technology isn't good enough to ensure they all survive. So he tells them they will wake up around 3-5 years after the war so they can save the USA so that they can save humanity. And they will, but they will do it when humanity is getting close to the point where they really, really need the help.
(Personally I feel this is the most likely reason)

The goal of the Project stated in the 3rd edition, is the continued survival of the human race beyond the point of destruction. With this in mind I do not see the rebuilding of the USA in whatever model of government as being the end goal of the Project. It's simply a stepping stone to the main goal which is the preservation of the human race.
Why even try to rebuild the USA? Because an industrial nation has the best chance of supplying the needs of a civilization so that it can not just survive but also thrive and therefore be able to help other civilizations.The USA is arguably the best placed modern, industrialized nation to ensure the survival of the human race. Once it's back on it's feet, it can start to rebuild the rest of the world.

Unfortunately, nations that are heavily industrialized are also the most vulnerable to calamity because for example, if the electricity stops, nobody remembers how to make candles and there's not enough firewood for cooking and heating anymore and none of the factories work so there goes any new clothes or cars or fuel pumps, spare parts for the radios, medicines etc. etc.
This is why the Project becomes so important. Bruce knows that the government couldn't get the USA back on it's feet, even 50 years later the people are still struggling and 150 years later they're so spread out and in such small numbers, there's no certainty the human race will be strong enough to survive any further problems (say like the Plague making a comeback).

This is were the Project comes in. They have skills and resources that can strengthen local communities. They have the knowledge of what the world used to be like and how it can be like that again. They have the ability to reunite the scattered survivors of the USA and rebuild the nation. Once the USA is again a vibrant civilization able to furnish resources in excess of what it needs to survive, those surplus resources can be sent to other parts of the world to ensure that the human race lives on elsewhere thereby ensuring that should another calamity affect the human race, they won't all be wiped out because they are all in the one place, (all the eggs are not in the one basket so to speak).

It's been mentioned that the game was designed during the Cold War and perhaps the Project was written up as fearing that the Soviets may still be in a position to cause grief for the US. I don't agree with this theory because I think Bruce would have been able to see if this was so in his trips to the future. I think Bruce realized that the best chance of saving humanity was to rebuild the USA, the best nation to be able to do this because of the reasons I mentioned above. The world definitely needs saving because after all, if the US could not get back on it's feet 150 years after the war, what chance does the rest of the world have?

It's necessary to preserve enough people with the skills, knowledge and ideals from before the war so that 150 years later they can set about building up a society that has the skills and resources to save the human race from dying off. I think Bruce saw this as the real problem of the entire war, that the results were so devastating that even 150 years later the world still hadn't properly recovered. This is when the Project is really needed, not one or two or even 5-10 years after the war.
The USA is the best nation to rebuild the world and save the human race and this is the most noble of goals. Rebuilding the USA in the mold of the constitution would certainly help but it can't be just the end goal, but it's a damned good way of reaching the real end goal, that is, to ensure the survival of the entire planet.

[natehale1971]

And that's why i said the MORROW PROJECT's goal was the rebuilding of the USA. The Constitution and it's framework is the building block that allowed the USA to become the great nation that it has been in the past, and can be in the future. THAT is why i said it would be used as something to rally around in the US.

The Atlantis Project was for the rest of the world. The overall goal was the salvation of the human race as you said. But it had to start somewhere. and the USA was it. And the Constitution created the American Dream that has inspired so many around the world. WHY NOT have it as the rally point for volunteers in the USA to do the reconstruction.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The brutal reality is that the US is best positioned to rebuild itself as a nation, not because of it's system of government but because, just like Russia, it has a large population spread out over a large area. This allows a far greater chance that enough people survive so that rebuilding can start but also to start breeding the next generations. Russia is just as well disposed to rebuild itself as a nation having also been heavily industrialized and having it's population spread over a wide geographic area. However, the aim of the game is not about Russia.

[natehale1971]

If that was the case, the USSR wouldn't have collapsed in upon itself. Because in all honesty, they had even more resources than the USA has access to. And they collapsed upon themselves. It's not just the resources you have access too, but the people themselves. We've talked about this on the t2k boards, and the fact that the Soviets had so many generations of being forced to conform, to keep their heads down because of the communist system had been ingraned into the people. But as we're seeing now in Russia they are starting to come out of that. and their economy and society is started to blossom and bloom.

[helbent4]

As a side note, I agree the Project is there to explicitly "aid in the reconstruction of the US after a nuclear war", as stated relatively early in the Intro to TM 1-1. The "US" (as opposed to America or North America) is a discrete socio-political-cultural entity, and is a much more narrow definition than merely "civilisation" in general or "humanity". After all, even the most pessimistic (but realistic real world) estimates predicted civilisation's eventual recovery after a nuclear war, even without the Project so in the strictest sense the Project is superfluous. Therefore it's logical to assume that the Project was formed to promote a certain kind of civilisation, one embodied by the pre-war United States of America.

Dockery mentioned the Phoenix team was primarily created in response to playtest groups that routinely went rogue. So being in-house troubleshooters was in response to a real problem. In my game, Phoenix also has a think-tank element, not just a hit-team. This think-tank would mainly be responsible for the "top level" thinking for the Project's strategic vision, but also send out Phoenix when necessary.

You also have to remember that Bruce E. Morrow was extremely adamant against the building of Prime Base because he KNEW it was going to fail.

Nate,

You may as well say the president of the White Star line was extremely adamant against the building of the Titanic because they KNEW it would sink. Or anyone be against anything that, in hindsight, was not a good idea.

There is no indication whatsoever (I can find in Prime Base, at least) that Bruce was "extremely adamant" or even mildly opposed to building Prime Base. Just that he didn't want to be part of the staff (pg 10). On page 8 it says one rationale for building PB was that is was recognised such a facility was "essential". I could be missing something!

I think there are much better ways of explaining Prime and various seeming problems with time travel. Reasons why it seemed a "good" idea at the time, and no one even did what, to us, seems like an elementary risk-assessment of a central control point. (For the sake of argument I take it that the most obvious explanation is correct: Morrow is an Esper/PSI that can somehow travel through time. As well, I've decided not to entertain any BEM, Evil Genius-thinking, where he allows the war to happen/Prime to fail/etc. on purpose, or that he's not some kind of charlatan.)

Bear in mind, Morrow was a strong-willed individual with his own preconceptions. He was not perfect and he changed the timeline on the fly, more than once without knowing what the exact outcome would be. (If he did, he would not have needed to make more than one trip to check how the future was proceeding, and introduce radical fixes based on that trip.) Morrow gambled with the timeline, and lost because he found out the hard way he wasn't omniscient. Call it the Black Swan effect, the Butterfly effect, what have you.

Timeline A: The original future that Morrow visits. No Project, outcome assumed bad for the US.

For my own game, I assume this is because while the US abandoned Civil Defense the USSR never did, so the possible "end game" for this timeline might be Soviet global domination centuries after a preemptive nuclear war triggered in the last gasps of a failing Soviet Union. This future is certainly a horrifying prospect for a capitalist, not to mention patriot, like Morrow!. (The latter elements is purely my conjecture, of course, but fits into the core themes of TMP.)

Timeline B: Morrow begins the Morrow Project, which presumably alters the timeline by its very existence. Morrow again visits the future to see how things are progressing. Obviously something is deeply amiss in Timeline B's future, because he seriously disrupts causality by bringing significant future tech back to the past (1979) before it's invented.

By creating the Project in the past he does alter the future, but then again anyone with similar vision, willpower, drive and resources could still create the Project using the technology of the time (according to the game). Actually bringing significant technology from the future seriously violates causality and creates paradoxes that are not as easily reconciled. My own conjecture is the future he sees is even more bleak, with (say) a somehow deficient or hamstrung Project only succeeds rebuilding the US to a point where a stalemate is again reached, and a new Cold War is ignited leads to a WWIV where everyone (or almost everyone) dies and human civilsation is permanently extinguished (thus the Project is rebuilding "civilisation" in a wider context).

Morrow introduces this "impossible" future equipment as fixes to problems he sees with the Project. One "1987 Update" fix was the adoption of Fusion power. The rationale that was alluded to Dockery was that without it, in playtests onboard nuclear reactors seemed too dangerous and other games otherwise devolved into a "search for fuel" (a la T2K). So its reasonable to assume this takes place in Timeline B, too, for the same reason, among other changes (more on these in a minute).

Timeline C: The game timeline. Not only is the future timeline altered, it's been altered again specifically for the Project. More significantly, changes Morrow himself introduced now come into play, making the timeline far different from what he intended.

This was a roundabout way of saying that far from being horrified by the introduction of a central command node and outmaneuvered by the COT or others, Morrow himself could be unintentionally responsible for Prime's failure. If, in Timeline B, one of the problems Morrow is there to discover is that a decentralised Project somehow splits into competing factions or even falls apart into warring groups, a strongly centralising command and control would be a logical step. Further, any parallel attempts by Morrow at manipulating world events (like, peacefully ending the Cold War in 1989) could have somehow backfired, causing a far worse and/or different war than he was expecting.

Morrow is not omniscient. If he were, there would never be any need to change things again by introducing fixes in 1979. The a logical rationale for why fatal errors were introduced to the Project is these were the result of fixes introduced to "solve" problems that have yet to happen, as is more-or-less established to be Morrow's operating method in TM 1-1 in the introduction.

As to why Morrow didn't see the obvious flaw in a central command post that can be taken out to hamstring the Project, bear in mind had seen the future, and in the future where there's a Project (Timeline B) Prime was as safe as kittens. Further, as to why no underling pointed out this flaw, there is a real-life business phenomenon called the "reality distortion field" (RDF) or "Steve Jobs effect".

"The RDF is said to be Steve Jobs' ability to convince himself and others to believe almost anything with a mix of charm, charisma, bluster, exaggeration, marketing, appeasement, and persistence. RDF is said to distort an audience's sense of proportion and scales of difficulties and makes them believe that the task at hand is possible."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field

Now, Steve Jobs isn't even an Esper, he's just a baseline human, if not exactly ordinary. If he can do this without Esper abilities, so could Morrow (and not just to the COT). If you went to Morrow and said, "uh, sir, building a Prime Base like this is insanely risky for glaringly obvious reasons..." by the end of the meeting you'd probably end up gushing "...gee, I see it now, organising the entire Project around Prime Base like you say is not only the most logical way to do it, but I feel like an idiot for ever thinking otherwise!" If Morrow had some kind of low-level Esper ability he wasn't aware of that helped convince people even more on some subconscious level, it's scary to think what he could accomplish without meaning to.

So... Prime Base might not be a plot against Morrow. It could instead actually be his fault. Not because he's evil or stupid, but because he's human and subject to hubris and a belief in his own infallibility.

Tony

[natehale1971]

I'm not saying the Bruce didn't want a headquarters. He just didn't want an 'All the eggs in one basket' approach that Prime Base ended up being... having a centrally located command & control centre allows for just that ONE place being knocked out, taking the entire project out with one swift stroke.

That's what Bruce didn't want to have happen. Having Phoenix Team frozen in place in Prime Base allowed for Bruce to have 'an ace in the hole' when PB went down, knowing that when someone woke the team up... they'd get the project kick-started.

And while the project doesn't get started in the 5 to 10 year original timeframe, it still get's started... just in a different world than they had expected to find.

[ArmySGT.]

Did someone win?

Who has the longer appendage?

It is a game people.

People will play it however they want.

[ArmySGT.]

Here's a twist on canon information for you. An excerpt from an interview with Kevin Dockery.

Is the wandering Warlock officially Bruce Morrow ?
Yes, he is one of a very few that can transport in and out of the future.

Not the only one. So for every move Bruce makes there can be another traveler counteracting that action.

http://home.earthlink.net/~kywess/doc_interv.html

[Kilgs]

Not to stir the now-cooled pot but... my version of the Morrow Project has nothing to do with the United States or the Constitution. I don't own all the books, only the main one, but I'm not interested in a game about rebuilding the United States of America. I'm running a game where the salvation of humankind is the number one motive.

I don't think Morrow was nice or mean. He was a survivalist. He simply wanted the human race to survive.

For the game I'm working on, I've been putting together the guidelines for the Morrow Project. One of the things that has always struck me as very interesting from a gaming point of view is the amount the MP stresses on individual decision-making. Sure the MP has a structure and a goal but the usual PC group is Recon and all the canon and fanon I've read is about how they're chosen to be independent, assertive and screened to be able to make decisions on their own.

This is a WIP but here are two of the tenets laid out:

Responsibility
All of us accept the mantle, the duty, of being responsible for the preservation of human society. This responsibility must remain with us as we take our first of many new steps on the face of Earth. We will be beset by conflict, war, deprivation, cruelties and moral quandaries in many forms. None of these must be allowed to interfere with our core responsibility. It is in our darkest days, throughout human history, that society has allowed itself to go astray due to the failure of someone to see their responsibilities through to the end. It is also true that, in those dark days, a single force for good can show the world that…INSERT MORE

This responsibility must be upheld each and every day. The
1. The preservation of mankind must be our foremost responsibility.
2.

Neutrality
The Morrow Project, within certain exceptions, does not make value judgments on the structure of human civilization. We are non-partisan, non-religious and exist only to serve the people of Earth. As such, the condemnation of communities based upon personal beliefs is not acceptable. The acceptance of outright injustice must be met with a firm hand but it is not our place to dictate the hows and whys of a new civilization. Almost all variations of community must be accepted for us to truly be of use to the future people of North America. We can not expect that individuals will embrace the past structure of governance that is familiar to us. History has shown time and again how systems of governance have arisen in response to the demands of the environment, the times and the people. These systems of government may have failed in time or succeeded for centuries. It does not matter. What we must all take to heart is that mankind will adapt and create in accordance with its needs. The establishment of communities is an experiment of human innovation and cooperation. It is one that we must protect and nurture for it to be successful.

1. Involuntary slavery is not acceptable. This does not require overt or violent action but must be the result of our interactions with communities. We recommend the use of advanced knowledge and services to pressure the community into abandoning this practice. As slavery, if encountered, will be a relatively new phenomenon in North America it should not be an insurmountable task.

2. Religion, spirituality and faith is a personal decision and one that the Project honors in others. The existence of new, unfamiliar or strange religions and cults is almost a certainty in the new world. Project personnel shall not evangelize their own beliefs, restrict the beliefs of others, or publicly participate in faith practices. Publicly, we must remain above the entanglements that faith and religion have caused in the past.

Integrity

1. At all times, we must ensure that the Morrow Project is seen as a beacon.


The purpose of this approach is three-fold:

1) It removes the need for political discourse like this.
2) It places the burden of making right/wrong decisions solely on the Team.
3) It provides far more opportunity for the Team to have deal with, bargain with and possibly ally with factions that may not be of similar mind. By keeping the overall goal in mind, the Team must act to ensure that mankind survives and this provides far more adventure fodder than the Liberty Brigade of the USA.

IMO.

[shenglu]

I can see using it as a core project of the logic. It will be difficult to say, "and any of our construction is based on our" constitutional amendment "form" or "We have a new post EOTWaWKT government plans to recruit hundreds of thousands of cribs and tens of thousands of followers."