Internment Camps

[Canadian Army]

Recently I have been read about the McCarran Internal Security Act/Subversive Activities Control Act that was pasted in 1950.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarran_Internal_Security_Act

The Act was a United States federal law that required the registration of Communist organizations with the United States Attorney General and established the Subversive Activities Control Board to investigate persons suspected of engaging in subversive activities or otherwise promoting the establishment of a "totalitarian dictatorship," fascist or communist. The Law also prevented the members of these groups from become citizens, and in some cases, were prevented from entering or leaving the country. The Act was a key institution in the era of the Cold War, tightening alien exclusion and deportation laws and allowing for the detention of dangerous, disloyal, or subversive persons in times of war or "internal security emergency". Congress repealed the registration requirements of the law in 1968 as a result of a number of decisions by the U.S. Supreme Court that declared certain aspects of the law unconstitutional, but some portions remain intact.

During World War II thousands of Japanese, Germans, and Italians were rounded up and interned as Enemies of the State, by the US, Canadians, and the British. It makes sense that during World War III the US/NATO would reinstate the their internment laws and round up and intern; all people with questionable alliances, ie Communist Party members. There is also a good chance that member of other fantic organzations, such as the Ku Klux Klan (KKK), American Nazi Party, Black Panther Party would probable interned too.

[kato13]

Pre or post Thanksgiving day massacre?

IMO It would be no to pre and yes to post.

[copeab]

After the nuclear strikes, I frankly don't think there would be enough command structure left for any organized, dedicated effort. Local military/civilian leaders might do something, but I don't see anything significant nationally.

[Matt Wiser]

I'd bet that folks like Ramsey Clark in the U.S. or George "Saddam was my friend" Galloway in the U.K. would find themselves behind bars once the U.S. and British enter the war. I've read that Galloway has been quoted as saying that he cried when the Red Flag with the Hammer and Sickle was lowered for the last time in 1991, so you can bet that he'd be arrested by the Brits. Clark, a former Attorney General (under LBJ) has been running around with a bunch of neo-Stalinists called the Workers' World Party, who run his "International Action Center" (more like a WWP front). Once the U.S. is fully involved, the FBI would show up to hustle him and his buddies off to the slammer.

[Raellus]

I can see known communists being interned. It wouldn't require that much manpower to run a couple of internment camps for suspected enemies of democracy (and capitalism).

I don't think other members of unafiliated groups like the Klan or the Black Panthers being interned- not unless they showed support for the Soviets and their allies, which is a possibility in the latter case (solidarity between the oppressed American underclass and the workers of the world). As far as I know, the Klan was left alone during WWII. Besides, they're pretty staunchly anti-communist, aren't they?

[jester]

I can see known communists being interned. It wouldn't require that much manpower to run a couple of internment camps for suspected enemies of democracy (and capitalism).

I don't think other members of unafiliated groups like the Klan or the Black Panthers being interned- not unless they showed support for the Soviets and their allies, which is a possibility in the latter case (solidarity between the oppressed American underclass and the workers of the world). As far as I know, the Klan was left alone during WWII. Besides, they're pretty staunchly anti-communist, aren't they?


They are pretty staunchly against everything! And they did and probably still do run alot of small remote communities.

As for those who would be pro communist, I really wonder if they would survive the days after an attack. They would probably be an immediate target by the populace in their communities, unless the community was of their ilk. Otherwise they would be something to strike at localy by the people who would have rage. And in part they would be part of the problem, since it was the folks these procommies and such would have supported who nuked us. Thus, they may end up getting shot, lynched, beaten to a pulp or within an inch of their lives, or maybe an old fashioned treatment, taring and feathering.

Think, in the T2K world would someone who had once been an advocate of the Russians and maybe still had those sympathies or preached them or associated with such sympathies, how welcome would they be in any community? I could see them being at the very least forced out, either told to go, or a molotov cocktail tossed through their window as an encoruagement to get out.

A few probably would find themselves in a jail here and there, but as with a concentration camp or a small and local jail, you have to feed, house and care for them. And could a communitee aford that?

And could the government afford to maintain a concentration camp, which would include, space, food, facilities, guards, transportation of them to a few central areas. Unless they have them on work parties or chain gangs, I wonder what the point of having a concentration camp or jail would be? Its a matter of resources and they won't have them, so they either get put to work, or executed or warned and let go. I can see people being sentanced to days hard labor as a fine, much like they are required to do community service today. But, on real work details, like a lumber or brick or ruble clearing or road repair detail. Or, we can bring back putting prisoners to working in mines which wouldn't be a bad idea.

[headquarters]

Political organizations that are in opposition would more likely than not be subjected to mass arrest etc in a time like the end of days described in T2K canon .The number of actual communists in the US in the 1990s would be just high enough to ensure that a couple of hundred feds would have a safe job for a few years still..But in such a frenzied atmosphere hysteria and ruthless opportunism would mean that all sorts of political organizations would be scrutinized and many would be classified disloyal that really have nothing to do with Moscow .McCarthism all over again -but this time the McCArthies would have powerful arguments like actual ruins and bodycounts to make their lunacy stretch out and last longer .

All the people have origins in the enemy nations-that would be the heavy stuff .There are millions of immigrants 1,2,3 generation that hail from one or the other of the countries on the other side .Sure they would protest loyalty,but having a Russian,Polish,Ukranian etc last name surely would be something of a disadvantage in times like those .

The confrontation between Latin America and the US as described in the books would also be a troublesome and disturbing chapter in the civilian populations chapter of the war .

As for the camps - I for one do not believe that such programs or indeed any programs would be started.The radiation ,hunger,cold and disease would be the only enemies left to fight-bar the occasional marauder/desperate refugee out to take what you have.

[Mohoender]

I also doubt that the state would start a camp program. However, in T2K, New America has many of them but their are turned against U.S. citizens. I like that idea better. What happens with the Robotniki in Silesia (Poland) is also similar

[Targan]

There were many cases in WWII of Japanese-Americans faithfully serving in the US Army while their parents and other family members were held in internment camps. Nasty situation. Very, very sad.

[Mohoender]

There were many cases in WWII of Japanese-Americans faithfully serving in the US Army while their parents and other family members were held in internment camps. Nasty situation. Very, very sad.

Very true. As I know U.S. Japanese were fighting in Italy and they fought more than bravely.

[jester]

Yes the 100th and 442nd Combat Teams fought in Italy, France and Germany with some smaller groups fighting in the Pacific. And the 442nd had more awards and decorations than any other in US history as well as almost a 200% casualty rate.

And the Supreme Court Violated the Constitution when it came to the internment. Frenzy, hysteria and oportunism.

However, the internment was temporary. After about 1943 the internees were given the option to relocated to the Midwest and East Coast, however a bitter pill was they also had to sign a loyalty oath which many saw and I agree, insulting. There is alot of misinformation on both sides about that issue. And we did intern Germans and Italians as well.

One thing to remember, in the 1920s they had a influx of immigrants from Asia, which had gone back to the late 19th century. So, we the US passed what was called "Yellow Laws" which were geared to prevent immigration and assimilation into society by denying immigrants the ability to gain citizenship. Thus, they could easily be deemed "enemy aliens" which gave a grounds for internment, just as we did with Gemran and Italian aliens, since they were citizens of hostile powers.

[Mohoender]

I didn't know about German and Italians. I didn't know also about the small groups in the Pacific. Thanks.

[jester]

I didn't know about German and Italians. I didn't know also about the small groups in the Pacific. Thanks.


Well its pretty standard to round up all persons who are from the country you are at war with.

As for Americans of Japanese desent in the Pacific, yes we had a few working in Intel, and as what would be called Phsy Ops today. They used them on Guam, Saipan, Tinian and Guam if I recall correctly.

As for the Germans and Italians. Well we did have a few German Sabatuers who were caught and imprisoned or executed, as well as some others who did get interned.

Remember the German American Bund had a considerable following. I recall they even had a rally at Madison Square Gardens to a near sell out crowd. And a good number of them did return to Germany to fight for them when they started doing the 1940 European tour.

[revaddict]

An excellent book to read in this regard is In Defense of Internment by Michelle Malkin.

She shows that based on what was known at the time there were real security threats from Japanese American citizen groups within the US. It was not just racial paranoia; people really were out to sabotage us.

Furthermore she shows that, contrary to the popular image, internment was not a simple matter of rounding up Japanese Americans at gunpoint and herding them into concentration camps as the Nazis did with their victims. The comparison between American internment camps and Nazi concentration camps is often made, but there is no similarity upon closer examination.

[kato13]

There was actionable intelligence against Japanese Agents living on the west coast. Unfortunately most of that intelligence came from the the decrypted Japanese diplomatic traffic. Picking up the individual agents would have led to suspicion about the security of the diplomatic code.

As with many cases in WWII, code breaking led to a difficult choice. In this case someone thought that Internment seemed like an elegant solution to the problem. Was it fair? Certainly not. Was it necessary? In hindsight probably not. But like so many decisions made during a war, I am glad it was not mine to make.

[Grimace]

If the nukes hadn't flown in Twilight, I could very easily see camps like this popping up. There may have been talk of them, in the Twilight world, and maybe some people were rounded up, but I doubt there was anything close to what we had in WW2. If anything, the moment the nukes started flying, the camps were probably abandoned by anyone guarding them and the people would have been left to do whatever they wanted or could do in a ravaged land.

In fact, it may have been some of those very "guarded communities" that New America used. And anything in Europe, save for France, that was like this would probably have been abandoned or overrun in the shifting battle lines that occurred.

[TiggerCCW UK]

They tried internement here during the early days of the troubles, and it backfired badly. Without solid up to date intel the wrong people get scooped up and the camps simply became a recruiting tool for the IRA.

[Graebarde]

Yes, the camps would tend to turn a loyal follower sour. And as for the US camps being better than the Nazi camps. Perhaps the conditions were better in the US camps in general, but the barbed wire fence and lack of freedom were the same. Also many of the US guards were not the fine friendly boys you would see in the propaganda.

Would there be camps post TDM? You bet'cha, but they wouild be refugee camps, and once you got in, it would be hell getting out IMO. And hell while you were in there. Think of the dome in NOLA after Katrina, 1000 time worse.

just my 2 cents
Grae

[Brother in Arms]

I think its possible that they could exist depending on the reason they people where being held and who was being held.

I think the idea of slave labor is much more likely though as jester mentioned all ready. In fact I suspect a lot of well established communities would have slave labor.

I think the U.S. could establish camps fairly easily, due to the fact that they have several "mock ups" of concentration camps and "training areas" that actually already exist! like the one at Redding ton naval airbase here in Maine where the USN conducts is cold weather training and sere school. I have seen it and thought it could be used for nefarious purposes instead of "training" it is extremely remote most people don't even know its there.





here is something to get your conspiratorial juices flowing:

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/government/new_world_order/news.php?q=1214512721

while the above information may be wrong or grossly misrepresented (for instance the German ww2 camp listed in Maine called Camp Houlton is now the site of the Houltan airport.) But its basically t2k information thats already made up for you! Why not use it?




Brother in Arms

[pmulcahy11b]

Yes, the camps would tend to turn a loyal follower sour. And as for the US camps being better than the Nazi camps. Perhaps the conditions were better in the US camps in general, but the barbed wire fence and lack of freedom were the same. Also many of the US guards were not the fine friendly boys you would see in the propaganda.

just my 2 cents
Grae

There's an old saying: "A prison, no matter how well-appointed, is still a prison."

[Graebarde]

There's an old saying: "A prison, no matter how well-appointed, is still a prison."

You have that right. I was asked why I didn't get a job at the prison (Huntsville TX.. FIVE prisons within the city limits).. because I don't like the clink of metal doors when I go to work, and having to ask someone to let me leave...

Grae

[rcaf_777]

I must agree with my borther (Canadian Army) there is a adventure about a Communist organization in Canada called Red Maple, It's a Challenger Article I have it some where?

[Marc]

Yes, the camps would tend to turn a loyal follower sour. And as for the US camps being better than the Nazi camps. Perhaps the conditions were better in the US camps in general, but the barbed wire fence and lack of freedom were the same. Also many of the US guards were not the fine friendly boys you would see in the propaganda.

Would there be camps post TDM? You bet'cha, but they wouild be refugee camps, and once you got in, it would be hell getting out IMO. And hell while you were in there. Think of the dome in NOLA after Katrina, 1000 time worse.

just my 2 cents
Grae

My great-grandfather, having crossed with his daughter the Spanish-French border through the Pirennes at the end of the Spanish Civil War, was interned by the french authorities in a refugee camp in the south of France. They followed the steps of thousands of Spanish republicans that tried to escape from what they thought, a nearly secure execution at the hands of the Spanish Nationalist soldiers. And, as Grae said, it was a hell.

The french authorities were overwhelmed by a true tide of terrified refugees. 500.000 refugees crossed the border in three weeks.Perhaps our northern neighbours have not noticed the extraordinary level of hate that the conflict (by the two sides) had generated and they cannot anticipate the dimensions of the flow of people running away from the armies of Franco.
Perhaps it was some kind of paralysis caused by the calm-down politic towards the fascist powers in Europe (that was about to end abruptly in September of that same year, with Hitler's invasion of Poland).

But the fact is that the french refugee camps were, at the beginning, only a piece of terrain surrounded by a fence. In the case of my great-grandfather, he was interned in a camp located in a beach near Argelès-sur-Mer. Only fences, sand and sea water. It was in February. 80.000 refugees. You can imagine the rest. Epidemics, louses, starvation, cold... Neither accommodations nor materials to build them, no latrines, no kitchens... With four or five blankets it was possible to improvise a low shack using reeds (the only and scarce resource available). But it was a poor solution against the rain. Quoting a refugee, "El llit de cada home es l'emprenta que el seu cos deixa a la sorra", "the bed of each man was his own mark on the sand". Thanks to god, the conditions of the refugees camp were improved with time.

The conditions on the T2K would be still worse. Thinking about Europe, in most of the parts, a refugee camp would not have sense. We need a community with enough resources and goodwill to admit a substantial number of refugees (to form a camp) for humanitarian reasons, without receiving anything in exchange (at least at the first moment). I can see small numbers of refugees flowing from disputed or devastated zones to organized zones. But nothing similar to a refugee camp. Basically, for the same reason that refugee camps didn't exist in the Middle Age. Most pprobably, in the communities organized as military cantonments, the military units providing protection would block the way to any thing similar to a group of refugees. At the most, they will be allowed to go through the cantonment territory under the surveillance of an escorting force. And finally, a great and unprotected group of refugees will attract all kind of unpleasant people.

[Targan]

I must agree with my borther (Canadian Army) there is a adventure about a Communist organization in Canada called Red Maple, It's a Challenger Article I have it some where?
Its a good mini adventure. Matter of fact I like most of the T2K mini adventures in the Challenge Mags.

[ChalkLine]

An excellent book to read in this regard is In Defense of Internment by Michelle Malkin.

No its not.
Michelle Malkin is not a good source, and her views are not just debunked, they're frightening. She is a right wing ideologue.

[kato13]

Straying too close to pure political talk. People here will have different opinions regarding politics and I hope we respect that.

[ChalkLine]

Straying too close to pure political talk. People here will have different opinions regarding politics and I hope we respect that.

Okay. But speaking as a historian, I consider her to be a poor source.

[kato13]

As long as anyone states it is an opinion, I am usually pretty cool with it. I personally don't feel any information should be completely devalued before it is read. Even if its source is questionable.

[kato13]

Communists != Subversives portion of this thread moved to "a bit of politics and history?" thread at Mohoender's request.

[Webstral]

Camps are in important part of the justification for the Second Mexican-American War. The official material doesn’t go into great detail about the events leading up to the start of the fighting in the American Southwest, but I think it is safe to say that post-Exchange America has little patience or charity for Mexican refugees. I have tried to address the issue a bit in Thunder Empire.

In early 1998, Mexican refugees do in fact flood across the lengthy US-Mexico border. By this point, Mexico has been hit by nukes, too. The Soviets hit the Mexican oil fields and refineries to keep Mexican oil out of American hands, then blame the Yankees for the attacks. In the wake of the nuclear attacks on Mexico, thing quickly get out of hand. Mexico being Mexico, grotesque corruption and racism coupled with the breakdown of the power grid and the distribution system compel masses of Mexicans to try their luck north of the border�even given how bad things are in the US.

Naturally, the Americans are far from accepting of the new arrivals. The majority of Mexican refugees cross into California and Texas. Violence ensues. In all of the border states, Mexican refugees (and some who are not) are rounded up and put into camps. Some camps are better than others. Notably, Huachuca has food reserves as a result of the DCP and FEMA, and Huachuca needs unskilled and semi-skilled labor. In southeastern Arizona, the Mexican refugee fare about as well as could be expected�which is to say that they live in tents with primitive sanitation and subsistence rations. Conditions in many parts of southern Texas and southern California are much worse. The refugees are constantly subjected to violence. A string of refugee massacres provides the Mexican government with a pretext for sending in the Mexican Army.

In truth, the Mexican government is looking for some way to divert the attention of the public. A foreign adventure seems to fit the bill nicely. The camps of Mexican refugees becomes a convenient excuse for war.


Webstral

[natehale1971]

I have always felt that the refugee colums would be heading SOUTH into mexico, instead of North back in to the US. All things considered, mexico wasn't hit as hard as the US by the nuclear exchanges. The average mexican wouldn't have been as effected by a nuclear exchange as much as the average american who probly lost EVERYTHING they had when it occured.

I just keep seeing large groups of American refugees heading south, going to those Mexican resort areas tht had not been nuked and trying to take them over as a piece of the 'world that was' and trying to live as close to what they lost as they could.

[Webstral]

Mexico might not have received the same megatonnage as the US, but Mexico is in tough shape before the Exchange. This is why some ten percent of Mexico's nationals are in the United States. The v1 Referee's Guide explicitly states that the oil-producing and industrial assets of neutral nations are destroyed to prevent the enemy from using them. This must apply to Mexico. The loss of petroleum refining and the nation's electricity grid will have the same effects in Mexico as in the US.

We take for granted in the US attitudes that are seldom found outside the West. We trust that while some government officials may be corrupt in the days following the TDM, in general the state does its best to distribute food and respond to the needs of the nation as a whole. Mexico simply isn't the same. The mentality that has resulted in their current plight has been in place for five hundred years. The theocratic, oligarchic, racist nature of the society isn't going to get better under the shade of a few mushroom clouds. Mind, I'm not saying Mexicans are bad people. I'm saying that Mother Church and the wealthy, who tend to be fair-skinned relative to the rest of the Mexican population, run the show to suit their own interests. That's why the US has an illegal immigration issue with our southern neighbor.

Following the nuclear attack on Mexico, transporatation falls apart. Food distribution falls apart. Although Mexico has a higher rural population than the US, modern Mexico is an urban society nonetheless. Combine food and energy shortages with the pre-existing mindset of the elites, and you have a situation that is ripe for abuses of every imaginable type. There will be Mexicans fleeing their homeland because for certain groups life may be uncertain in the US, but it's downright untenable at home.

There may be Americans who try to head for the Mexican resorts. They are going to find that the natives have moved in already.

Webstral

[natehale1971]

Mexico might not have received the same megatonnage as the US, but Mexico is in tough shape before the Exchange. This is why some ten percent of Mexico's nationals are in the United States. The v1 Referee's Guide explicitly states that the oil-producing and industrial assets of neutral nations are destroyed to prevent the enemy from using them. This must apply to Mexico. The loss of petroleum refining and the nation's electricity grid will have the same effects in Mexico as in the US.

We take for granted in the US attitudes that are seldom found outside the West. We trust that while some government officials may be corrupt in the days following the TDM, in general the state does its best to distribute food and respond to the needs of the nation as a whole. Mexico simply isn't the same. The mentality that has resulted in their current plight has been in place for five hundred years. The theocratic, oligarchic, racist nature of the society isn't going to get better under the shade of a few mushroom clouds. Mind, I'm not saying Mexicans are bad people. I'm saying that Mother Church and the wealthy, who tend to be fair-skinned relative to the rest of the Mexican population, run the show to suit their own interests. That's why the US has an illegal immigration issue with our southern neighbor.

Following the nuclear attack on Mexico, transporatation falls apart. Food distribution falls apart. Although Mexico has a higher rural population than the US, modern Mexico is an urban society nonetheless. Combine food and energy shortages with the pre-existing mindset of the elites, and you have a situation that is ripe for abuses of every imaginable type. There will be Mexicans fleeing their homeland because for certain groups life may be uncertain in the US, but it's downright untenable at home.

There may be Americans who try to head for the Mexican resorts. They are going to find that the natives have moved in already.

Webstral

I had thought of that as well... All the problems that we had here in North Carolina thanks to the fact our social services have been totally overwhelmed by the amount of illegals on the roles. My family and I spent almost 7 months on the streets as homeless, trying to find a place to live and help in getting into a program to get us into a Progam that could get us off the streets. With all the crap we had to fight against just to find a home, Emma had said it was proof that she would never do what she's done now. We went from living on the streets to living in a nice house in a year thanks to the hard work and fighting the VA disability people to give me the disablity they had promised me when i got out of the navy (still fighting to get the 80% they had promised, currently at 60%... and it only took ten years).

[Cdnwolf]

People forget that the internment camps originated during WWI and came to full use during WWII.

I was at Fort Henry in Kingston, Ontario and never knew that it was used as an internment camp during WWI for UKRAINIAN people!

[copeab]

People forget that the internment camps originated during WWI and came to full use during WWII.


The camps during the Boer War don't count?

[Targan]

The camps during the Boer War don't count?

Excellent point. Anyone here seen the fantastic Australian film Breaker Morant? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaker_Morant_%28film%29 ). That wiki article quotes a great speech given by the military defence counsel representing Morant, I urge you to read it. The events and characters in the film were real, if slightly altered for dramatic purposes.

[copeab]

Excellent point. Anyone here seen the fantastic Australian film Breaker Morant? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaker_Morant_%28film%29 ). That wiki article quotes a great speech given by the military defence counsel representing Morant, I urge you to read it. The events and characters in the film were real, if slightly altered for dramatic purposes.

Ah, very good movie and it has been far too long since I have seen it.

[RobbyK]

Yes the 100th and 442nd Combat Teams fought in Italy, France and Germany with some smaller groups fighting in the Pacific. And the 442nd had more awards and decorations than any other in US history as well as almost a 200% casualty rate.

And the Supreme Court Violated the Constitution when it came to the internment. Frenzy, hysteria and oportunism.

However, the internment was temporary. After about 1943 the internees were given the option to relocated to the Midwest and East Coast, however a bitter pill was they also had to sign a loyalty oath which many saw and I agree, insulting. There is alot of misinformation on both sides about that issue. And we did intern Germans and Italians as well.

One thing to remember, in the 1920s they had a influx of immigrants from Asia, which had gone back to the late 19th century. So, we the US passed what was called "Yellow Laws" which were geared to prevent immigration and assimilation into society by denying immigrants the ability to gain citizenship. Thus, they could easily be deemed "enemy aliens" which gave a grounds for internment, just as we did with Gemran and Italian aliens, since they were citizens of hostile powers.

I would also like to add, that many of the Japanese-Americans, whom were interred, often had their businesses confiscated from them. After the war was over, they didn't get so much as an apology until around 1993 (with a very meager check in the mail). Almost none of the former business or home titles were returned, having been liquidated to "fund" the interment camps.

Many of the camps were further administered by a "corporate" entity, where some goods were made in the camps and sold on market. I don't think due-process of law was ever considered, when such properties were seized.

The State of Colorado has a very detailed historical archive on the camp located here, and even lists some of the opposition by local religious organizations and the (then) elected governor. In fact, Colorado's governor-- at the time-- was one of the very few voices speaking against the federal government's policies.

[HorseSoldier]

Excellent point. Anyone here seen the fantastic Australian film Breaker Morant? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaker_Morant_%28film%29 ). That wiki article quotes a great speech given by the military defence counsel representing Morant, I urge you to read it. The events and characters in the film were real, if slightly altered for dramatic purposes.

Guys on Lightfighter.net have been working on getting a Rule 303 morale patch done for a bit now, happily on the waiting list for one.

[Targan]

I watched Breaker Morant again today. Morant's case portrayed in the film is an excellent example (one of thousands of examples) of the British military's past use of colonial troops as scapegoats, cannon fodder and worse. Sadly the Australian government didn't learn well enough from Morant's case and allowed the British to misuse and abuse Australian troops for another 50 years. Nowdays (thankfully) Australian troops are commanded by Australians and are tried under Australian military law.

The events portrayed in Breaker Morant are actually relevant today in terms of the War on Terror, as the Boer War was a counter-insurgency war fought between British regular troops with slightly irregular colonial and volunteer units under British command, and guerilla Boer commando forces (it has been suggested that the Boer War saw the first use of the term "commando").

[Canadian Army]

I recently found this this info, I think this makes my point:

PROFUNC (1950–1983), which stands for "PROminent FUNCtionaries of the communist party", was a Government of Canada third rail top secret plan to identify and intern Canadian communists and crypto-communists during a national security state of emergency, such as a Third World War crisis with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) and Red China.

For info can be found here:
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2010-2011/enemiesofthestate/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROFUNC

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I think depending on where you went, after the TDM you'd probably see pro-communist types being summarily executed.

[Webstral]

I think depending on where you went, after the TDM you'd probably see pro-communist types being summarily executed.

I agree completely. In fact, I'd expect to see liquidation of EPW as a rule, rather than the exception.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

I'd expect to see liquidation of EPW as a rule, rather than the exception.

Agreed. EPWs chew (literally) through tonnes of vital resources which would be in short supply. For this reason alone, the EPWs aren't likely to survive long post nuke.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I agree completely. In fact, I'd expect to see liquidation of EPW as a rule, rather than the exception.

Webstral

I agree, I just meant ComSymp groups in the States, Canada and the UK.

Especially in the States.

[95th Rifleman]

I don't know why thisis even a debate, it's a dead surety that internment camps would be introduced. What is GITMO if it's not an internment camp? This current camp is proof positive of how America would operate in WW3.

Germany may be hesitant due to the cultural guilt over the holocaust and concentration camps but Russia would have no qualms about it, nor would her allies.

Not sure about the UK because we where going through (and are still stuck in) a very liberal phase during the 90's. However when things star to come unstuck I can see BNP, NF and EDL members being arrested because they will be a big threat to internal security.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

I don't know why thisis even a debate, it's a dead surety that internment camps would be introduced. What is GITMO if it's not an internment camp? This current camp is proof positive of how America would operate in WW3.

Germany may be hesitant due to the cultural guilt over the holocaust and concentration camps but Russia would have no qualms about it, nor would her allies.

Not sure about the UK because we where going through (and are still stuck in) a very liberal phase during the 90's. However when things star to come unstuck I can see BNP, NF and EDL members being arrested because they will be a big threat to internal security.

Its actually more of a Prisoner of war camp. If it were a true internment camp then there would be allot more of them there and with their families. And there would be more camps, as in this case if you would compare it to the historical camps all of the Muslims would have been rounded up and placed in camps. As it is those that are there have be linked to activities so as to be held for Intel or to keep them from committing further acts or supporting of those acts. :)

[95th Rifleman]

Its actually more of a Prisoner of war camp. If it were a true internment camp then there would be allot more of them there and with their families. And there would be more camps, as in this case if you would compare it to the historical camps all of the Muslims would have been rounded up and placed in camps. As it is those that are there have be linked to activities so as to be held for Intel or to keep them from committing further acts or supporting of those acts. :)

Oh really?

There are documented cases of individuals sent there for NO reason, some where shopped to the coalition to fill quotas from informants. The place is an AQ recruitment ground as people sent to GITMO for no reason are soon indoctrinated and end up hating america.

[Rainbow Six]

However when things star to come unstuck I can see BNP, NF and EDL members being arrested because they will be a big threat to internal security.

Agreed. When the proverbial hits the fan I think extremists from both ends of the political spectrum could expect to find themselves being detained at Her Majesty's pleasure in such choice locations as Dartmoor and the Isle of Wight. I'm sure I read somewhere that the Isle of Man was also cited as a possible location of an internment camp (although that might have been during World War 2). How long people would stay interned is possibly more debatable...I could see numbers of people being initially rounded up in a sort of knee jerk reaction only to be released later.

My alternative Survivor's Guide has a character based on George Galloway - when I finally get round to doing a bio for him I intend to have him interned for a period of time early in the war before his status as an MP gets him released.

[bobcat]

as for camps i know this sources comes off as kinda crazy but im sure someone can put it into a game.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread60684/pg1

[Sanjuro]

My alternative Survivor's Guide has a character based on George Galloway - when I finally get round to doing a bio for him I intend to have him interned for a period of time early in the war before his status as an MP gets him released.
I can't find a reference online, but IIRC there was an MP imprisoned throughout WW2 as a potential traitor- if memory serves he was referred to as "The Scottish Prisoner", but when I google the term all I find is a historical novel by an author I've never heard of. I think the Tower of London was the prison used. Can anyone else find a reference?

[Canadian Army]

Captain Archibald Henry Maule Ramsay (May 4, 1894 – March 11, 1955) was a British Army officer who later went into politics as a Scottish Unionist Member of Parliament (MP). From the late 1930s he developed increasingly strident antisemitic views. In 1940 his involvement with a suspected spy at the United States embassy led to his internment under Defence Regulation 18B; it allowed for the internment of people suspected of being Nazi sympathisers, the only British MP to suffer this fate. He was imprison in HM Prison Brixton, not the Tower of London.

[Sanjuro]

Thanks CanArmy, that's the one! Gorgeous George could have his old cell at Brixton then...

[.45cultist]

The internment, along with rationing, power brownouts, etc., would certainly convey a sense of TSHTF to the average citizen of a western nation. Possibly leading further desperation in the early years or any "False Twilight" era scenario where the PC's seek refuge ala the movie "Panic in the Year Zero".

[Brother in Arms]

thanks for mentioning "PANIC IN THE YEAR ZERO!"
one of my favorite early apocalyptic films! Makes me miss having a browning A5
BIA

[rcaf_777]

For those of you who don’t know here is the EPW Chain in the US/NATO System. POW transport is usually done with “Back Haul transport” i.e. vehicles that are returning to depots, supply units ect after dropping off supplies.

EPW Chain

Capture
Unit Holding Area
Brigade Holding Area
Division Holding Area
Corps Holding Area
Theater Internment Facilities

EPW Process

At capture persons are search and any weapons, ammunition and documents of intelligence value are removed from the EPW. Once the EPW reach the Brigade holding area they will placed under the control of a Military Police Guard Company. It is her that first screening takes place, while the EPW will separated base rank, sex and branch of service, they would not had a detailed search or had their possessions inventoried. At the division and corps level they will screened by medical staff and by Intelligence and PSYOP units. The last and final destination will be one of several Theater Internment Facilities.

Theater Internment Facilities

These camps would be broken down along ethnic make-up (See Below) so as to maximize the Psy-Ops effort for recruitment as informants or double agents/insurgents. These facilities will far to the rear of the fighting possible in Western Germany along its border with other NATO nations or in the UK. These camps would also have liaison officers from non-military organizations such as the CIA, NSA, Army Counterintelligence, and CID ect. Most of the High Value EPW would most likely be transported back to CONUS for torture ….I mean processing.

Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center

Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center conducts follow-on exploitation of POWs. POWs are screened by the interrogation facilities and those of further intelligence potential are identified and forwarded to the Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center for follow-on interrogation and debriefing in support of higher requirements. Besides POWs, the Interrogation and Debriefing Center may also interrogate civilian detainees, refugees, and other non-prisoner sources. They also debrief captured or detained US personnel released or escaped from the Soviets. They also coordinate the exploitation of captured equipment with the Captured Material Exploitation Center, and documents with the Document Exploitation Center, the Document Exploitation Center will also translate any captured documents

Here what I have for camps

USSR Camps

Russian
Ukrainian
Belarusian
Estonian
Lithuania
Latvian
Moldavian
Kazakhs
Georgian
Uzbeks
Tajiks
Yagnobi
Uzbeks
Kyrgyz
Turkmen
Tatars
Arabic
Azerbaijan
Armenians

Warsaw Pact Nations

Albanians
Bulgarians
Czechs
Slovaks
Hungarians
Polish
Romanians

Non Warsaw Pact

Mongolia
Serb
Croatian
Cuban

Special Status Camps (Retained Personnel and Other Detainees

Displaced Civilians
Sympatric Germans (Former East German Military) (German Run Only)
French Citizens (Held until repatriated to France by IRCC)

High Value Camps

GRU
KGB
General Staff Officers
Communist Party Officials
Pilots/Air Crew
Naval Officers

Special Military Police Units

Branch National Prisoner of War Information Center (NPWIC)

Location: Washington D.C.

Purpose: Obtain and store information concerning POW, Civilian Internees and Retained Personnel, and their confiscated personal property. Information will be collected and stored on each POW, Civilian Internees, and RP captured and detained by NATO. This includes those POW, Retained Personnel, who were captured by the United States but are in custody of other powers and those who have been released or repatriated. POW, Civilian Internees and Retained Personnel cannot be forced to reveal any information however they are required to provide their name, rank, serial number and date of birth. The Geneva Convention requires the NPWIC to collect and store the following information for POW and Retained Personnel:

(1) Complete name.
(2) Internment Serial Number
(3) Rank.
(4) Serial number.
(5) Date of birth.
(6) City of birth.
(7) Country of birth.
(8) Name and address of next of kin.
(9) Date of capture.
(10) Place of capture.
(11) Capturing unit.
(12) Circumstances of capture.
(13) Location of confiscated personal property.
(14) Nationality.
(15) General statement of health.
(16) Nation in whose armed services the individual is serving.
(17) Name and address of a person to be notified of the individual’s capture.
(18) Address to which correspondence may be sent.
(19) Certificates of death or duly authenticated lists of the dead.
(20) Information showing the exact location of war graves together with particulars of the dead.
(21) Notification of capture.
(22) List of person all articles of value not restored upon repatriation.

Branch Prisoner of War Information Center (PWIC)

Location: Bremerhaven Germany

Purpose: The Branch NPWIC functions as the field operations agency for the NPWIC. It is the central agency responsible to maintain information on all POW, Civilian Internees and Retained Personnel and their personal property within the AOR

Military Police Guard Companies

Location: Various POW Camps

Purpose: Used as Camp Guards and Staff (USAR or ANG)

Military Police Escort Companies

Location: Most Army Divisions

Purpose: Responsible for screening and escort POW to camp or to the Theater Interrogation Center

Military Police Camp Quick Reaction Unit

Location: Various POW Camps

Purpose: Used for riot situations in a POW Camp

[ChalkLine]

Excellent post!
Something I've always wondered about