POMCUS and ReForGer

[Adm.Lee]

Spinning off of from the "Dependents" thread...

What always got to me was the POMCUS seemed to be geared for Armored Divisions, while none of the Divisions that were suppose to come from the mainland immediately had all of their components actives or had Brigade posted forwards already...

So it seems regardless if it was by designed or because how a military conflict would developed in Germany, it seems to me that very few US Divisions would have made the transition from the US to Germany intact. The exception of these would be the 82nd and 101st Division if they were transferred to Europe and not elsewhere.

I'm sorry, I don't see what you mean?

AFAIK, the POMCUS sites were set up for 5 divisions (2nd Armored, 1st Mech, 4th Mech, 5th Mech, 1st Cav) and an ACR (3rd). That's all of the active divisions that were supposed to go to Germany, using air transport for personnel. Two of them, I think, had forward brigades (from 2AD and 1MD) in Europe and only 5 MD had an NG roundout brigade (or did 1CD, too?). Except for those NG brigades, all of those divisions (all mech or armored), were active-duty, and supposed to be ready to go. Are you saying they were less than ready?

Note on sources: I'm using GDW's "Battle for Germany" OB, since that's right next to my PC and I'm gearing up for a PBEM of that.

[dragoon500ly]

Spinning off of from the "Dependents" thread...



I'm sorry, I don't see what you mean?

AFAIK, the POMCUS sites were set up for 5 divisions (2nd Armored, 1st Mech, 4th Mech, 5th Mech, 1st Cav) and an ACR (3rd). That's all of the active divisions that were supposed to go to Germany, using air transport for personnel. Two of them, I think, had forward brigades (from 2AD and 1MD) in Europe and only 5 MD had an NG roundout brigade (or did 1CD, too?). Except for those NG brigades, all of those divisions (all mech or armored), were active-duty, and supposed to be ready to go. Are you saying they were less than ready?

Note on sources: I'm using GDW's "Battle for Germany" OB, since that's right next to my PC and I'm gearing up for a PBEM of that.

The 1st CD had a roundout brigade, the 155th Armored Brigade of the Mississippi NG...the POMCUS plans had the School Brigade from Fort Benning (the 197th MIB) as replacing the 155th.

POMCUS also had two sets of equipment for the Field Artillery Brigades supporting III Corps.

[Adm.Lee]

The 1st CD had a roundout brigade, the 155th Armored Brigade of the Mississippi NG...the POMCUS plans had the School Brigade from Fort Benning (the 197th MIB) as replacing the 155th.

POMCUS also had two sets of equipment for the Field Artillery Brigades supporting III Corps.

Thank you. I figured there were corps assets, too, they just don't show up in that game. Those were also active-duty formations, I assume?

[Panther Al]

Hrmmm... From the looks of the units involved, 5 decent to good divisions and one effing outstanding regiment, it appears that the reforger/pomcus combo was a III Corps show for the most part, for those that know, was that the case or?

[dragoon500ly]

Thank you. I figured there were corps assets, too, they just don't show up in that game. Those were also active-duty formations, I assume?

Based out of Fort Sill, Oklahoma. Should have been the 75th FAB with 3 battalions of SP 155 and 1 of SP 203 and the 212th FAB with 2 bns each of SP 155/SP203.

[dragoon500ly]

Hrmmm... From the looks of the units involved, 5 decent to good divisions and one effing outstanding regiment, it appears that the reforger/pomcus combo was a III Corps show for the most part, for those that know, was that the case or?

POMCUS was III Corps all the way...2 understrength armored divisions, a full strength mech division and two understrength mech divisions...at leastuntil 2AD and 1MID linked up with their forward deployed brigades....as for that 3ACR bunch...to be sure they were the effing outstanding unit in REFORGER...but that was because the 2ACR was already in country, kicking ass and taking names!!!

LOL!!!! ;)

[Panther Al]

Granted those 2ACR guys never blew up their own motorpool, after all, thems that can, do, thems that can't, teach...

So, why was it they decided that the 2nd couldn't be trusted with the heavy stuff and given hummers eh?

:D

[dragoon500ly]

Granted those 2ACR guys never blew up their own motorpool, after all, thems that can, do, thems that can't, teach...

So, why was it they decided that the 2nd couldn't be trusted with the heavy stuff and given hummers eh?

:D

Somebody had to teach the XVIII Airborne Corps how to do it right!

[dragoon500ly]

Besides...it costs an arm and a leg to ship the heavy stuff home from Germany...better to deactivate the ole Deuce, sell the equipment to the Kuwaitis and then reactivate the Deuce at Fort Polk when somebody in the Pentagon realized that the 2nd was formed by direct order of the President...and nobody in the Pentagon outranks the Pres! At least it beats the hell out of what happened to the ole Black Horse!

[Panther Al]

Ah, but the 3rd was known as the Presidents own. So there. :P

Anyways, this thread got jacked badly, so back on topic, except for the forward brigades, am I correct that all of three corp was those 5+1, or did other corps involved?

[dragoon500ly]

Ah, but the 3rd was known as the Presidents own. So there. :P

Anyways, this thread got jacked badly, so back on topic, except for the forward brigades, am I correct that all of three corp was those 5+1, or did other corps involved?

Doctrine for a US corps was 3 divisions, so III Corps with 5 is a bit overstrength. I've always read that the plans were for 1MID to reinforce V Corps while 2AD reinforced NORTHAG. I've also heard that III Corps was to reinforce NORTHAG with a 4-div force...the problem is that the existing logistical line ran south to V/VII Corps. Would make more sense to send the REFORGER to join the line with the rest of Seventh Army.

The big question in the deployment of III Corps would be just how far the Russians were able to drive into the Dutch/Belgian/UK line. One of the reasons why the 2AD forward deployed brigade was moved north was due to concerns when the Dutch/Belgians made the decision to cut their war stocks from 30 days to 10 days as part of a budget cutback. The brigade was to cover the port of Bremerhaven since this was the main US port for supplies. Of course that was taking place when France was doing its "we are on the board of NATO, but we are not taking part in NATO so don't count on the use of French ports" argument.

[Abbott Shaull]

Okay so then some of the sites were did not have full Division worth of equipment sets? Such as those for the 1st Mech and 2nd Armored which already had forward brigade deployed.

[dragoon500ly]

Okay so then some of the sites were did not have full Division worth of equipment sets? Such as those for the 1st Mech and 2nd Armored which already had forward brigade deployed.

Based on the Congressional Record, it is my understanding that the POMCUS sites had full sets of divisional equipment. After all, the Army could find men to man the the equipment at the risk of stripping a stateside unit of its personnel.

[Abbott Shaull]

Based on the Congressional Record, it is my understanding that the POMCUS sites had full sets of divisional equipment. After all, the Army could find men to man the the equipment at the risk of stripping a stateside unit of its personnel.

That what I thought for what I could read too. Just making sure.

Like I said that it one of those things that makes one wonder how they use to go on about units deploying with units they had trained with. Yet, the deployment of the III Corps shows clearly that wouldn't have been the case if the balloon went up without warning. Now in the timeline that GDW presented their may have been time for the Round-out Units to train up and deploy with their parent organization.

[dragoon500ly]

That what I thought for what I could read too. Just making sure.

Like I said that it one of those things that makes one wonder how they use to go on about units deploying with units they had trained with. Yet, the deployment of the III Corps shows clearly that wouldn't have been the case if the balloon went up without warning. Now in the timeline that GDW presented their may have been time for the Round-out Units to train up and deploy with their parent organization.

What is always intresting about the REFORGER role, virtually every dvision/brigade assigned had either a round out brigade or round out battalions to bring it up to strength. And yet these round out units all needed a minimum of 30 days to be combat ready.

The whole return of forces to germany concept requires such a long lead time to be effective. And don't forget that the act of the President ordering REFORGER could be considered as an escalation by the Soviets. I'm sure that anyone stationed in Germany during the annual REFORGER exercises can remember the higher state of readiness caused, in part, by the Soviets going to a higher state of readiness because they always considered the REFORGER exercises as an excellent time for NATO to attack them!

I'm afraid, that REFORGER, like so many of the NATO war plans is more in the nature of a best wish than a tactical reality.

[Abbott Shaull]

What is always intresting about the REFORGER role, virtually every dvision/brigade assigned had either a round out brigade or round out battalions to bring it up to strength. And yet these round out units all needed a minimum of 30 days to be combat ready.

This was the point I was wondering. GDW gave NATO and the US lead up time due to the reunification of Germany and the Pact attempting to attack only valid German target to begin with. Even with the lead time, Operation Desert Storm showed these units needed longer much longer than 30 days due units not being up to snuff. Even the Army's own regulations help in this, for some units were require units to redo training evolutions that they had already complete prior to being Federalized, but having to redo it just to do so.

Like I stated before, we would be seeing Divisions piecemeal together even with a 30-60 day lead up time. Of the three Round-out Brigade only one was had completed it training and ready to ship out. It was speculated that of the other two brigades one would have require up to 180 day of training before it could of been certified to transfer to take to the field. Considering to raise new Brigade from scratch would take a year or longer, depending how many times these units were raided for replacements.

I know some on this board can't understand why the US Army by 1997-1998 was still so small. I am amaze that GDW gave the US military as much credit as they did. What does surprise me that 194th Armor Brigade and 197th Mechanized Brigade never made over to Europe and were still in the US. Even then they weren't used to repel on of the invasions. *shrug*

With everything else considered it amazing that 101st Air Assault Division was sent over once and never invited back. So I don't the plans really included bringing anything other than the 24th Mechanized from the XVIII Airborne Corps to Europe. Where the GDW have several Light Infantry being sent Europe... *again shrug*

[Webstral]

At the risk of being a GDW apologist, I think we might see some opportunity for clear-headedness following the outbreak of the Sino-Soviet War. The question of readiness might have become a bit more pointed with the outbreak of hostilities in the Far East. A staff war game or two with the President paying more attention to outcomes than to Congress might have inspired him to direct the Pentagon to make some changes to readiness levels. Perhaps the National Guard and the Reserves were subjected to “enhanced readiness AT” starting in 1996. The formations might have been under Title 32, but perhaps the federal government found ways to share the burden of unusually long and unusually timed AT. The US Army Vehicle Guide tells us when the National Guard brigades came into federal service, but we don’t know much about what they were doing before they were brought into federal service.

Webstral

[dragoon500ly]

At the risk of being a GDW apologist, I think we might see some opportunity for clear-headedness following the outbreak of the Sino-Soviet War. The question of readiness might have become a bit more pointed with the outbreak of hostilities in the Far East. A staff war game or two with the President paying more attention to outcomes than to Congress might have inspired him to direct the Pentagon to make some changes to readiness levels. Perhaps the National Guard and the Reserves were subjected to “enhanced readiness AT” starting in 1996. The formations might have been under Title 32, but perhaps the federal government found ways to share the burden of unusually long and unusually timed AT. The US Army Vehicle Guide tells us when the National Guard brigades came into federal service, but we don’t know much about what they were doing before they were brought into federal service.

Webstral

Never have been upset with GDW, its the logical tree that they used that I question. The only way for the force structure that they used is for at least a 2-3 year lead time with the primary stumbling block being procument of equipment for the US military as well as exporting what had to be some major arms shipments to NATO/Iran.

Now, considering the Soviets had to have conducted their own military build up in prep for the China Invasion, both superpowers had to have been playing brinkmanship games for up to five years. Possibly even a proxy conflict or two.

And of course, the background doesn't cover this.

[pmulcahy11b]

Vietnam, and I think Laos and Cambodia, also came in on the Russian side and China would have been fighting a bit of two-front war, as well as worrying about Russian air and sea ops out of Vietnam.

[dragoon500ly]

Vietnam, and I think Laos and Cambodia, also came in on the Russian side and China would have been fighting a bit of two-front war, as well as worrying about Russian air and sea ops out of Vietnam.

For real entertainment, look at topo maps of the Vietnam-China border. Back when they had their last shotting war, the Chinese were not able to drive very far over the border. Thick jungle coupled with some truely nasty mountain terrain.

The Viets/Laos and Chinese might have spent most of WWIII dropping arty/air strikes on each other and the occassional "recon-in-force" But I don't think that it would have been much more than that, there is simply not enough infrastructure to support major military operations...and the problem with the Viets sending thousands of light infantry north, would be the hundreds of thousands of light infantry being sent south.

[Abbott Shaull]

Oh just more cannon fodder to kill...

[dragoon500ly]

Oh just more cannon fodder to kill...

GROAN!!!!!:rolleyes:

[Adm.Lee]

Hrmmm... From the looks of the units involved, 5 decent to good divisions and one effing outstanding regiment, it appears that the reforger/pomcus combo was a III Corps show for the most part, for those that know, was that the case or?

Of the POMCUS stuff, 1 MD was to go to VII Corps, and 4 MD to V Corps. I've seen that in other wargames, too. The other 3 divisions and ACR were for III Corps.

[Adm.Lee]

The big question in the deployment of III Corps would be just how far the Russians were able to drive into the Dutch/Belgian/UK line.

The greatest success I ever had playing the Soviets in either GDW's "Battle for Germany game" or Victory Games' "NATO" was in striking the Dutch/Belgian/British sector of the line. Interestingly enough, I later went to an Origins War College lecture on Pact war plans. According to the stuff that the East Germans and Czechs had told NATO, that was the Soviets' plan, too. I'm about to enter a PBEM game of the combined GDW game, so I'll see how it works this time.

[dragoon500ly]

The greatest success I ever had playing the Soviets in either GDW's "Battle for Germany game" or Victory Games' "NATO" was in striking the Dutch/Belgian/British sector of the line. Interestingly enough, I later went to an Origins War College lecture on Pact war plans. According to the stuff that the East Germans and Czechs had told NATO, that was the Soviets' plan, too. I'm about to enter a PBEM game of the combined GDW game, so I'll see how it works this time.

When you look at the NATO militaries, the two strongest are the West Germans and the US. The Germans, for political reasons are split into three corps and LANDJUT. In between each German corp is a NATO element. So the strongest military is scattered up and down the border. The US are the qualitive superior military...and they are dug in in the best defensive terrain in southern Germany. ALL of the US warplans always assume that the WP will go for the US first...which never made since once I started looking at topo maps. The North German Plains would have been the area of decision for two primary reasons.

First up is the NGP is the best tank terrain in Europe! It may have more rivers than other areas, but that is why God invented Engineers and the Russians pooled a lot of Engineer assets up north!

Second is that any drive into the NGP would strike the weakest militaries. The Dutch/Belgian troops on a unit for unit basis are fine troops. I've always been impressed with the pride and professionalism that they displayed whenever I've operated with them. That being said, their governments made the decision not to spend a lot of money on them. Their equipment was older and not as numerous than any other member of NATO with the possible exceptions of Spain/Portugal. I am certain that the forward units of the Dutch/Belgian Corps would have done thier duty. Sadly, I am also certain that they would have been overrun by the sheer weight of the 8th Guards Shock Army.

So take a look at the overall picture...the strongest military force is deployed in the best defensive terrain, but due to internal NATO politics, their line of communications runs northwards to Bremen. A strike over the NGP would result in the destruction of major elements of the Dutch/Belgian Armies as well as cutting northern German from southern German. Being able to take the critical ports of Bremen and Bremenhaven would disrupt the US supply line. The end result would be LANDJUT fighting on its own; the British, what ever is left of the D/B forces and German II Corps would be trying to stabilize a line while the US forces would be held in place by the Soviet/Czech forces.

To discomfort NATO even further, the Soviets could have taken advantage of the French government at the time, perhaps by promising that they would not advance beyond the Rhine River and would not launch any attack against any French forces in Germany and I'm sure they would have been more than willing to deliver in any promises as long as the French remained neutral. That would have denied NATO any defensive depth to repair the LOC and maneuver to counterattack the Soviet breakthrough.

With the Soviets in possession of the major population/industrial centers of West Germany, they could have forced the Germans to a seperate peace.

A simple, elegant plan and almost certainly what was really intended.

[bobcat]

What is always intresting about the REFORGER role, virtually every dvision/brigade assigned had either a round out brigade or round out battalions to bring it up to strength. And yet these round out units all needed a minimum of 30 days to be combat ready.

The whole return of forces to germany concept requires such a long lead time to be effective. And don't forget that the act of the President ordering REFORGER could be considered as an escalation by the Soviets. I'm sure that anyone stationed in Germany during the annual REFORGER exercises can remember the higher state of readiness caused, in part, by the Soviets going to a higher state of readiness because they always considered the REFORGER exercises as an excellent time for NATO to attack them!

I'm afraid, that REFORGER, like so many of the NATO war plans is more in the nature of a best wish than a tactical reality.

sounds a bit like UFG here in Korea. is it just me or are the people that plan these exercises terminal optimists?

[dragoon500ly]

sounds a bit like UFG here in Korea. is it just me or are the people that plan these exercises terminal optimists?

One thing I've always noticed in these wargames is that somehow, Red Force is always supposed to attack right into the prepared postions of Blue Force...then when you get a hyperaggressive unit fight as red force, Blue Force gets so....embrassed!

[Abbott Shaull]

When you look at the NATO militaries, the two strongest are the West Germans and the US. The Germans, for political reasons are split into three corps and LANDJUT. In between each German corp is a NATO element. So the strongest military is scattered up and down the border. The US are the qualitive superior military...and they are dug in in the best defensive terrain in southern Germany. ALL of the US warplans always assume that the WP will go for the US first...which never made since once I started looking at topo maps. The North German Plains would have been the area of decision for two primary reasons.

First up is the NGP is the best tank terrain in Europe! It may have more rivers than other areas, but that is why God invented Engineers and the Russians pooled a lot of Engineer assets up north!

Second is that any drive into the NGP would strike the weakest militaries. The Dutch/Belgian troops on a unit for unit basis are fine troops. I've always been impressed with the pride and professionalism that they displayed whenever I've operated with them. That being said, their governments made the decision not to spend a lot of money on them. Their equipment was older and not as numerous than any other member of NATO with the possible exceptions of Spain/Portugal. I am certain that the forward units of the Dutch/Belgian Corps would have done thier duty. Sadly, I am also certain that they would have been overrun by the sheer weight of the 8th Guards Shock Army.

So take a look at the overall picture...the strongest military force is deployed in the best defensive terrain, but due to internal NATO politics, their line of communications runs northwards to Bremen. A strike over the NGP would result in the destruction of major elements of the Dutch/Belgian Armies as well as cutting northern German from southern German. Being able to take the critical ports of Bremen and Bremenhaven would disrupt the US supply line. The end result would be LANDJUT fighting on its own; the British, what ever is left of the D/B forces and German II Corps would be trying to stabilize a line while the US forces would be held in place by the Soviet/Czech forces.

To discomfort NATO even further, the Soviets could have taken advantage of the French government at the time, perhaps by promising that they would not advance beyond the Rhine River and would not launch any attack against any French forces in Germany and I'm sure they would have been more than willing to deliver in any promises as long as the French remained neutral. That would have denied NATO any defensive depth to repair the LOC and maneuver to counterattack the Soviet breakthrough.

With the Soviets in possession of the major population/industrial centers of West Germany, they could have forced the Germans to a seperate peace.

A simple, elegant plan and almost certainly what was really intended.

Wow and one would think someone at the Pentagon would of realized long ago. No seemed to noticed that bulk of the force was to follow units along the Northern German Plain. On the other hand, the Czech and Soviet Group of Forces in Czech and the follow on forces behind them were there to make it so NATO Commander didn't juggle US units North.

[Panther Al]

Heh. A lot of info came out with the fall if the wall about what was on the other side of the US forces saying that the soviets was a paper tiger: more to fix the US Army than to take ground. Lots of good arguments for and against. I believe it however: when I was in college one of my roomates was right off the boat and, like many, ex service. What made it interesting was that he was a tanker assigned across from the US. He joked that most of the tanks they had was plastic and that he spent more time painting different numbers and unit insignia on their running tanks than he did driving them. He said they was told they had enough force to force the gap (like their officers would say anything else) at which time they would switch over to a aggressive defensive role.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well like I said that most of the information came out. Like I said most of what they did have was to head toward northern Germany. Limited resources would head to southern Germany. They realize that the US and UK couldn't quite reinforce their forces as fast as NATO claimed. With the the number of incomplete units in the III Corps would make things that more interesting...

[Adm.Lee]

One should realize that the US forces are mostly in the south, as that's where they ended up at the end of WW2. Shifting them to the North German Plain would have taken a lot of money, time and effort. It would also resulted in the Dutch & Belgians having longer supply lines than they ever had, and needing to spend a lot on transport, probably weakening their forces even further.

That doesn't sound like a winner, so it sounds better to have the Americans as a holding force across a wider span, and then forming a counter-attack force (III Corps) right into the extended Soviet spearhead! That almost sounds like a real plan.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah I think most of use realize a lot of where the UK and US Forces were stationed in Germany was due to where they were when the fighting stop.

[dragoon500ly]

I'm going to date myself here...when SPI introduced "The Next War in Europe", we played the hell out of that game. For those who don't remember it was a MASSIVE brigade/division level board game on WWIII.

In every game that was played, when the Russians crossed the border and headed for Holland, the NATO player was beat. By the time REFORGER gets going, the Russians had dropped airborne divisions on key crossings and had motor rifle divisions driving hard for the linkup!

One game in particular was a free setup in which the US Army was moved north, the Brits had the Fulda Gap and the Dutch/Belgian/Canadian were holding the Hof Gap.

That one turned into a multi-turn slaughter for both sides! Russians were still able to drive almost to Frankfurt but then III Corps, the French and major elements of German II Corps launched a drive that cut off 8th Guards Army.

Now I am aware of why the various allies wound up where they did in post WWII, but I still question why no change was never made when NATO tried to come up with a defensive plan. My guess, the political leadership flinched at the cost....

[Abbott Shaull]

Now I am aware of why the various allies wound up where they did in post WWII, but I still question why no change was never made when NATO tried to come up with a defensive plan. My guess, the political leadership flinched at the cost....


Enough said on the subject...lol