The Soviet Cuba Division

[rcaf_777]

Dose anybody have any info on this formation, all I have been able to find is a few reports saying about 2600 troops were left as advisors after the cuba missile crisis.

On another note I think that any Soviet equipment and troops would sent back to Europe before the war started to replace loses of equipment of those lost from the war with China.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well I think it was the imagination of the GDW. Also about what equipment, I don't think they updated much of it. Wonder if the Cuban would liberate the equipment for themselves...

[sglancy12]

Even the original GDW materials refers to the Division Cuba as just an ad hoc amalgamation of the Soviet advisers marooned in Cuba after the nuclear strikes of 1997-1998. It self-designated itself "Division Cuba." In real life, there was never a unit designated "Division Cuba."

Of course, that always seemed to suggest to me that the Division Cuba that found itself marooned in San Antonio would have been made up of a majority of troops older than the typical Soviet recruit and far more technically competent. With all that talent available, San Antonio might have more services working than any other city in Texas.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Abbott Shaull]

Unlike the US and many of allies. Many of the Soviet Technical advisors are civilians and not military trained...

Yes, I remember the unit just adopted the name, but still a very small division even compared by Soviet pre-war standards...

[RN7]

According to Red Star-Lone Star.

As of late summer 2000 Soviet Division Cuba had 3,000 men and 15 operational tanks (mostly T-80's & T-72's) with some other AFV (mostly BTR-70's and BMP variants).

Soviet forces attacking Brownsville: (230 men, 3x BMP, 8x BTR-70, 2x ZSU-30, 9x Jeeps, 6x Trucks)

Soviet forces attacking Port Isabel: (120 men, 4x BTR-70, 5x Jeeps, 2x Trucks, 2x Fuel Tankers)

It likely that the Soviets have also captured or acquired a number of US and Mexican military and light vehicles and some artillery as well.

[Abbott Shaull]

More than likely, but I don't see the Cubans letting the Soviet leave with 'their' toys. Mostly the Soviets retained operational control over Anti-Air Missile Batteries and Aviation assets that were loaned out. Same thing naval vessel they invariably loan out to their 'brothers-in-arms'.

[rcaf_777]

I found a DIA report online can't post in on here due bandwidth, this is what I was able to come up with

Soviet Forces Cuba

The Soviet Forces have been in Cuba since shortly before the Cuba missiles, the soviet the main purpose of the soviet troops in Cuba is provide a technical assistance to Cuba forces, engage in signal intelligence, provide a symbolic show of force to the US that the USSR is ready to defend Cuba. With a one Motorized Rifle Brigade, this unit is more defensive force rather than a combat unit capable of conducting operations beyond Cuba. Given it size and equipment it would take a build up of equipment and transport aircraft before this unit could sent outside of Cuba, signs of which would observed by the US

Motorized Rifle Brigade (1x Tank Battalion, 3x Motorized Rifle Battalions) 2600
Cuban Military Advisory Group - 2000
Cuban Civilian Advisory Group - 8000
Lourdes Signals Intelligence Facility (See Below) 1500
Total Troops: 14,100

Bases
Lourdes Signals Intelligence Facility: The Lourdes Signals Intelligence facility, located near Havana, Cuba, was the largest facility of its kind operated by the KBG, outside of the U.S.S.R. Located less than 100 miles from Key West, the facility covered 28 square miles. The facility is staffed by over 1,500 KGB, GRU, Cuban DGI, and Eastern Bloc technicians, engineers and intelligence operatives.

I way I see it, once the war gets really going most of troops and modern equipment in Cuba leave for China or European Fronts. The Soviet do send replacements but they are thrid class troops, too old or medical unfit for combat.

The US attacks (conventional) airfeilds that can take Bear Bombers, as well as the Naval Bases, and the Lourdes Signals Intelligence Facility, which scares Fidel to point where he breaks with the Soviets. He knows he will not survie an american invasion, and with the Soviets occuppied eles where he can only offer a token defensive.

I can also see the Soviets no longer providing oil or any cash to prop up Cuba, so I see them try to build an alliance with left nations in centeral or south america

[sglancy12]

Soviet Forces Cuba

Motorized Rifle Brigade (1x Tank Battalion, 3x Motorized Rifle Battalions) 2600
Cuban Military Advisory Group - 2000
Cuban Civilian Advisory Group - 8000
Lourdes Signals Intelligence Facility (See Below) 1500
Total Troops: 14,100


Well, considering that by the late Summer of 2000 the Soviet Division Cuba was whittled down (according to the scenario Red Star/Lone Star and the Soviet Vehicle Guide) to 3,000 men, 15 operational tanks and a number of AFVs, I suppose that those numbers are not a terrible starting point.

Being stuck in the continental US, there might be fewer desertions since there's no way to just walk back to Minsk. Plus, they're in Texas, where neck-tie parties are an institution. Surrendering to the Texans might go badly for the Soviets.

Plus, the unit sounded like it performed fairly well during the invasion of Texas, with more casualties caused by partisan snipers after the occupation of San Antonio rather than by the US 49th Armored Division in 1999.

However, this is an ad hoc division, formed from those forces marooned in Cuba. Except for the Motor Rifle Brigade, none of these individuals have worked together as a coordinated unit. The military advisers may be extremely skilled individuals, but they are not operating as companies or battalions. Maybe while the unit was marooned, the Soviets could have taken some time and prepared their non-combatants by having the military advisers train the non-combatants as line infantrymen between 1995 and 1998.

The big question is whether they'd have enough gear to field close to 8,000 men. For my part the inclusion of T72s suggests that the Cuban gave the soviets some gear as part of the deal to get them to leave the island. Aren't T72s the export version of the T64? Soviets would have had a problem with logistics since none of their Pact standard gear is compatible with the gear the Mexican Army is packing in 1998.

[pmulcahy11b]

Aren't T72s the export version of the T64?

Only kind of. In many ways the T-72 is more advanced than the T-64, in some ways less advanced. Armor sloping and turret silhouette are also a bit different.

[HorseSoldier]

And the Soviets fielded a lot of T-72s in addition to the ones they exported.

If I remember right, the Soviets also had a battalion or so sized SOF force who were there specifically to launch direct action missions against targets in the US if the balloon went up. With Castro's "I'll just sit this one out" approach to the war in the T2K timeline, these guys may not have done much before Div Cuba got shipped to Mexico, but their presence may help explain the battlefield successes of a mostly ad hoc unit.

[Legbreaker]

It's mentioned in Gateway to the Spanish Main that Cuba was involved in fighting in Angola. A number (unspecified) of regiments were involved with the worst (the 21st MRR) evacuated by ship in late 2000 (they arrived in Grenada in November 2000) after being defeated by non-Marxist guerillas.

Given their involvement in Africa (which apparently began in mid 1993 or even earlier), it's no real surprise the Cubans tried to remain neutral with respect to the European war and it's participants - they probably didn't have the troops available to defend themselves if they made too many political waves.

[HorseSoldier]

It's mentioned in Gateway to the Spanish Main that Cuba was involved in fighting in Angola. A number (unspecified) of regiments were involved with the worst (the 21st MRR) evacuated by ship in late 2000 (they arrived in Grenada in November 2000) after being defeated by non-Marxist guerillas.

Order of battle information for Cuba seems really hard to track down. I've been interested in seeing an OOB for their real world involvement in Angola and there just doesn't seem to be any hard info out there, even historical estimates from US or other western intelligence agencies of old SADF intel.

[pmulcahy11b]

This:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Revolutionary_Armed_Forces
Is the closest I could find, but is critically short on vehicles and equipment assigned to what military units.

[boogiedowndonovan]

This:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Revolutionary_Armed_Forces
Is the closest I could find, but is critically short on vehicles and equipment assigned to what military units.


I've said it once before and I will say it again, my memory is cluttered with useless facts.

There is a series of posts on the ToE yahoo groups regarding the Cuban Revolutionary Armed Forces circa 1986-88. A poster by the name of "lovingfall2003" aka Dave Mann put together an orbat.

I will copy and paste here. Link to the post is here (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/message/5835), but there are 5 parts.

Enjoy!

"Say hello to my little friends" -- Tony Montana(Angola Vet)
PART NO. 1
Armed forces overview- Cuba- 1986-88
TOTAL FORCES ACTIVE- 182,000
TOTAL READY RESERVES- 135,000 (first line reserves to fill
out active units a large portion of whom filled out units going to
Angola and Ethiopa). SAID TO BE ABLE TO MOBILIZE IN 24 HRS
Terms of service- 3 years active and untill 50 for ready
reserves.
Army (FAR)- 147,000 incl 10,000 ready reserves called up.
(est,60,000 consripts)
4- corps
3- armed div (1 Cat A, 2 Cat C )
3- mech inf div (1 Cat A, 2 Cat B )
13- inf div (3 Cat A, 3 Cat B, 7 Cat C )
10- indep inf reg (Cat B/C )
1- AB aslt bde (Cat A )
1- Naval inf bn (Cat A)
note on Cat's- A-fully manned by active duty, B-partly
manned by active duty to be filled with ready reserves on mob, C-
active cadre, fully manned by reserves on mob
MINISTRY OF INTERIOR TROOPS(MINTINT)
4- Border Guard bde(TGF)(4,000)(Cat A)-frontier troops
Special Troops(SF)- (est,2,000)-elite troops
Special Bn of police- (est, 250)-very elite troops
DSE- 15,000 (state security)
Air Force (DAAFAR)- 21,000 (est,10,000 consripts)
FGA, 3 sqn-(36 MiG-23BN)
FIGHTERS, 8 sqn:
2- 30 Mig-21F
2- 30 Mig-21PFM
2- 20 MiG-21PFMA
1- 17 MiG-21bis
1- 15 MiG-23 FLOGGER-E
TRANSPORTS, 4 sqn: 35 An-2, 3 An-24, 22 An-26, 4 Yak-40, 2
IL-76.
HELO'S, 8 sqn: 30 Mi-8/-17 (20 armed), 25-Mi-24/-25 HIND-D,
4 Mi-14
AIR DEFENSE, 200+ SAM launchers SA-2/-3/-6/-9/-13
TROOP TRANSPORTS, 10 IL-62, 7 Tu-154
NAVY(MGR)- 14,000 (est, 9,000 conscripts)
SUBS- 3 FOXTROT
FRIGATES- 3 KONI CLASS
PATROL AND MISSILE CRAFT- 58 SOVIET TYPES(KOMAR
CLASS,KRONSHTADT CLASS
MINE WARFARE- 14 4-SOV SONYA CLASS, 10 SOV YEVGENYA CLASS
AMPHIBIOUS- 2 SOV POLNOCNY CLASS
COASTAL DEFENSE- 50 SSM SAMLET (INACTIVE)
PARA-MILITARY-
civil defense- 100,000
youth labor army(EJT)- 100,000
territorial militia(MTT)- 1,200,000


"Say hello to my little friends"

PART NO.2 Dave Mann

Org of Inf CO-
1-CO HQ
3- INF PLTS
6- OFFICERS
77- MEN
Org of Inf BN-
1-BN HQ
3- INF CO
1- MORTAR BTRY 6-MORTARS 82/120-MM
1- ANTI-TANK PLT 2-AT GUNS 57/76/85-MM
1- SUPPLY AND MAINT PLT
365- OFF'S AND MEN
Org of Inf REGT-
1-REGT HQ
2-INF BN
1-SIG CO
1-RECON PLT 12 MOTO'S W/SIDE CAR
1-AAMG CO 6-ANTI-AIRCRAFT MG'S
1-ANTI-TANK PLT 2-AT GUNS 57/76-MM
1-MORTAR BTRY 6-MOTARS 82/120-MM
1-TRANSPORT PLT
1-SUPPLY AND SVC PLT
1-MED SEC
1010- OFF'S AND MEN
6-AA GUNS
6-AT GUNS
18-MORTARS 82/120-MM


Cuba NO.3
Org of Inf Div-
1-DIV HQ (Off's & men)
3-INF REGT'S (3,030)
1-TANK REGT (720)
1-ARTY REGT (975)
1-ADA REGT (600)
1-RECON BN (200)
1-CHEM DEF CO
1-ENG CO
1-TRANSPORT BN
1-SUPPLY AND SERVICE CO
1-SIG CO
1-MED CO
5,900 off's and men
36-82/120-mm
24+ AA MG/TOWED ADA GUNS
65- MED TANKS (T-54/55/62)
3-PT-76
48- AT GUNS
18- MED/HEAVY/HOWITZERS
18- MRL(MULTIPLE ROCKET LAUNCHERS)

Cuban NO.4
Org of a representitive Mech Inf BN--
1-BN HQ
3-MECH RIFLE CO 30 APC'S
1-MORT BTRY 6-82/110 MORT
1-ANTI-TANK PLT 2-57/76 AT GUNS
1-SUPPLY AN MAINT PLT
430 OFF'S AND MEN
27-RPG-7
6-82/110 MORTARS
2-57/76 AT GUNS
30+ APC'S
Org of a Mech Inf REGT- (OFF'S AND MEN)
1-REGT HQ TOTALS- 1,560 off's and men
2-MECH RIFLE BN (860) 12-18 82/120-mm mortars
1-TANK BN (150) 18- sp/towed ada guns
1-MORT OR HOWT BTRY 0-6 med/heavy guns
1-ATGM BTRY 21-med tanks t-62's
1-AA MG BTRY (70) 3-pt-76's light tanks
1-ARMD RECON CO 60+ apc's (BTR-40/60/)
1-ENGR CO (50)
1-MAINT CO
1-TRANSPORT CO
1-CHEM DEF PLT
1-SUPPLY AND SVC PLT
1-SIG CO
1-MED PLT



Cuba NO.5
Org of a Mech Inf Div- (Off's and men)
1-DIV HQ Total's
3-MECH INF REGTS (4,680) 8,700 off's and men
1-TANK REGT (840) 36-54 mortars
1-ARTY REGT (975) 48+ sp/towed ada guns
1-ADA REGT (600) 126+ med tanks/su-100 astgns
1-ARMED RECON BN 12+ PT-76 light tanks
1-ENGR BN (300) 30-lt at guns
1-MAINT BN (150) 18-36 med/heavy/howt
1-TRANSPORT BN 18-mrls
1-CHEM DEF CO (45)
1-SUPPLY AND SERV CO
1-SIG BN (250)
1-MED BN (140)
Org of a Tank CO-
1-HQ TANK
2-TANK PLT (3-TANK EACH)
3 OFFICERS
26 MEN
Org of Tank BN-
1-BN HQ (1-TANK)
3-TANK CO (21 TANKS)
1-SVC AND SUPPLY PLT
130 OFF'S AND MEN
22 MED TANKS
Org of Tank REGT-
3-TANK BN (450)
2-ADA BTRYS
1-ARMD RECON CO 3-PT-76'S
1-ENGR CO (50)
1-MAINT CO
1-TRNSP CO
1-CHEM DEF PLT
1-SUPPLY AND SERVICE CO
1-SIG CO
1-MED PLT
840 OFF'S AND MEN
63+ MED TANKS (T-54/55/62)
3-LT TANKS PT-76'S
12-SP/TOWED ADA GUNS
Org of a Tank DIV-
1-MECH INF REGT (1,560)
3-TANK REGTS (2,520)
1-ARTY REGT (975)
1-ADA REGT (600)
1-ARMD RECON BN (230)
1-ENGR BN (270)
1-MAINT BN (140)
1-TRNSP BN
1-CHEM DEF CO (45)
1-SUPPLY AND SERVICE BN
1-SIG BN (220)
1-MED CO (60)
6,600 OFF'S AND MEN
116+ MED TANKS
12+ PT-76'S
30+ SP/TOWED ADA GUNS
12-18 MORTARS
22-LT AT GUNS
18-24 MED/HEAVY/HOWITZERS
18 MRLS
Org of a Artillery REGT-
1-MED/HVY ARTY BN (300) 18 MED/HEAVY GUNS
1-LT ARTY BN (200)/ 18 LT AT GUNS
1-MRLS BN (210) 18 MRL
1-ADA BTRY 6 AD MG
1-TARGET ACQ UNIT
1-TRNSP CO
1-MAINT CO
1-CHEM DEF PLT
1-SIG CO
1-MED PLT
975 OFF'S AND MEN
18-MED/HVY GUNS
18-LT GUNS
18 MRLS
6-AD MG'S
Representive strenths-
Corps strenth- 17,300 (3 div)
Army strenth- 70,200 (only in time of major war)organization
not set in peace time

Total equipment holdings of the Cuban military-
MBT- 650 T-54/55, 300 T-62, (200+ T-34'S in storage)
LT TK- 60+ PT-76's
RECCE- 100 BRDM-1/-2
MICV-50 BMP's
APC's- 500 BTR-40/-60/-152
TOWED ARTY-76MM:M-1942;122MM:M-1931/37,D-74's:130MM:M-
46;152MM:M-1937,D-20's,D-1.
MRL-122mm:BM-21;140mm:BM-14;240mm:BM-24
STATIC DEFENSE ARTY: T-34's,and SU-100's

Over seas deployments-
Nicaraqua 3,000
Angola 35,000+
Congo 400-800
Ethiopia 5,000+
Mozambique 700
South Yemen 500
Also numerious "Civilian's" as economic "ect" advisors in
all of the above aswell. The troops in Angola and Ethiopia were
considered trained-vet combat troops, one of the reasons they sent so
many troop rotations thru the above was to give all of the ready
reservists some combat exp as are friend "Tony Montana" could testify
too. I hope all of the above helps and if any one has any questions
feel free to e-mail me any time also sorry for the above being broken
up into 5-emails i am alittle tired after working all day and i did not
realize i could have fit this all on one page, i guess thats why they
call military intelligence analysts "oxy-morons". Dave Mann

[Hybris]

Nice..

[Mohoender]

Wonder if the Cuban would liberate the equipment for themselves...

I would think yes if you go with the statement made in the game. Cuba wanted to get rid of the Soviets in hope of remaining neutral. Then, arming them is their best option to get rid of them. However, I wonder where these T-80s come from?

[Canadian Army]

However, I wonder where these T-80s come from?

Maybe they were part of this lot:
"In late 1993 Russia signed a contract with the People's Republic of China for the sale of 200 T-80U MBTs for evaluation. For unknown reasons only 50 were delivered." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-80#People.27s_Republic_of_China)

[Mohoender]

Interesting good point

[WallShadow]

Maybe they were part of this lot:
"In late 1993 Russia signed a contract with the People's Republic of China for the sale of 200 T-80U MBTs for evaluation. For unknown reasons only 50 were delivered." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-80#People.27s_Republic_of_China)

Makes one wonder how the T-80 export model fared against the "home-consumption" model in the Sino-Soviet clash?

[Olefin]

An interesting link that could bring some light on what the division might have been composed of

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-09-12/news/mn-2964_1_soviet-union

"MOSCOW — President Mikhail S. Gorbachev announced Wednesday that he has decided to begin withdrawing Soviet troops from Cuba, winding down a 32-year military alliance with the Western Hemisphere's only Communist regime.

Secretary of State James A. Baker III hailed the move as "a very substantial gesture" that would help Gorbachev win economic aid from the West.

"We will soon begin discussions with the Cuban leadership about the withdrawal of the Soviet training brigade in Cuba," Gorbachev told reporters at the Kremlin after meeting with Baker for more than two hours. He said he expects that the brigade will leave Cuba in the "near future."

Gorbachev said the Soviet Union has about 11,000 military personnel in Cuba. Other officials said the training brigade he mentioned included fewer than 3,000, or about one-fourth of the total."

it goes on to say

"The withdrawal of the training brigade announced by Gorbachev would still leave as many as 8,000 Soviet troops on the island, including a motorized rifle brigade of about 3,000 and an unknown number of military intelligence personnel.

Gorbachev's figure of 11,000 for Soviet troop strength in Cuba was significantly higher than most Western estimates, which run from 7,700 to 9,000.

The Soviet military uses Cuba as a major base for electronic eavesdropping on the United States and Latin America, as a facility for resupplying submarines that patrol the U.S. coast and as a landing point for Backfire bombers. It is unclear from Gorbachev's remarks whether those functions would be affected by his cut"


Another link I found is this http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/47460/susan-kaufman-purcell/collapsing-cuba

It mentions the following: " In September Gorbachev announced that the Soviet Union would pull its 11,000-man military brigade out of Cuba—a figure subsequently explained to include 3,000 combat troops, 3,000 signal intelligence personnel, 3,500 military advisers and some civilians in military-related roles"


So at the very least you are looking at a 3000-3500 man training brigade and a motorized rifle regiment of 3000 men along with those manning the eavesdropping facility (3000 strong) and the naval personnel that manned the resupply facility for a total of 11,000 men.

That, combined with withdrawn personnel from various embassies in the area and possibly KGB and GRU personnel who were in Cuba would make for enough manpower for sure for a division.

If you look at what is written about them in the Texas module you can see they had a mix of BTR-70's and BMP's, with the BTR-70's being more prevalent which suggests it was a BTR Motorized Rifle Regiment and not a BMP one. Also what is interesting is that unless they were heavily reinforced by the Cubans with tanks, a MRR only has about 41 total tanks - a single tank battalion with an extra tank in the HQ section. Given what they had left it would mean they had only lost 26 tanks taking on the 49th which doesn't sound that realistic given the composition of the 49th. Most likely that means the Cubans reinforced them with tanks from their own units, thus resulting in the mix of tanks they have left - i.e. mostly T-72 or T-80 but also could be types the Cuban Army was equipped with.

So if you base its composition on historical information:

One Motorized Rifle Regiment - 3000 men with one tank battalion and three BTR battalions (which would have some BMP's as well) - the one on duty in Cuba

One Motorized Rifle Regiment - again about 3000 strong, most likely being the training personnel - armed with Cuban material - most likely a mix of BMP-1's and BTR-60's along with a tank battalion of T-62's

One Tank Battalion - another 40 or so tanks, again most likely Cuban T-62's or T-54/55 - 165 men

Recon Battalion and Engineering Battalion - around 350 men each

Artillery Regiment, SAM Regiment, various other support battalions - most likely formed from the signal and support troops in Cuba - about 3600 men or so if they were formed at full strength

One Helicopter Squadron of about 18 helicopters with at least some surviving to 2001, most likely heavy on attack helos, probably reinforced by captured American civilian helicopters (as mentioned in the Texas module the Soviet commander was hoping to use the fuel to get his attack helicopters back into operation) - maybe 200 men

Add it up its about 11,000 men - which matches what Gorbachev said was there in 1991

Plust that gives the Soviets around 120 tanks of various types at the start - which gives them more than enough to engage the 49th with a real possibility of victory when you add in the BTR's and BMP's that are with them

[unkated]

Order of battle information for Cuba seems really hard to track down. I've been interested in seeing an OOB for their real world involvement in Angola and there just doesn't seem to be any hard info out there, even historical estimates from US or other western intelligence agencies of old SADF intel.

A lot of the answer depends on which timeline want to play out.

In RL, Cuba had 20-40,000 troops plus some 11,000 civilian advisors and workers (teachers doctors, enginneers) in Angola between 1975 (Angolan independence) and the end of 1988.

In spring 1988, in RL, the Cubans had some 55,000 troops in Angola (a notable portion of the total), 40,000 of them in southern Angola, poised to launch an offensive into SW Afrika (Namibia), in an attempt to outflank an offensive from South Africa and UNITA that had beaten the tar out of Angolan forces in southeast Angola. 15,000 of those troops had just been brought from Cuba - Fidel's own 50th Div. Cuban and Angola between them had some 600 tanks. South Africa reacts by calling up 140,000 reserve troops.

The Cuban offensive was cut short as part of a general effort toward disengagement by Gorbachev. At the end of 1988, The Brazzaville Protocol was signed, and Cuban and South African troops both began to leave Angola, and were all gone in a 12-18 months. In the same time frame (1989), a UN brokered-peace is negotiated in Mozambique.

And in South Africa itself, no longer needed as a close ally against communist supported former Portuguese colonies, international pressure rose against the Apartheid regime, and the political process was allowed to change South Africa, avoiding a violent revolution, and ending apartheid.

But, in a V1 timeline, there is no general east/west easing and disengagement. In Europe. It doesn't mention it, but if Gorbachev did not make an effort to end the Cold War (that was killing Russia trying to keep up with western military expansion/upgrades that inspired T2K in the first place), then.... would the Angola War have ended?

Or would there still be tens of thousands of Cuban troops in Angola, fighting the full-scale war against South Africa they prepared for?

The V1 timeline preserves the apartheid government of South Africa, meaning the pressure from the west did not occur - probably because they were needed against Cuban troops. So there is probably still a war - cool with points of hot action every few years.

Actually, that can play fairly well into the creation of Division Cuba - add almost another decade to Cuban involvement in Africa, and that is a small country taking losses it cannot well afford. Cubans can get angry enough to blame Castro and his support for the Soviet Union. They can remove him from power, and then create a new government bent on achieving a neutral stance. And then choose to withdraw their remaining troops and advisors from Angola.

A V2 timeline, following RL through the build down of the 1980s, Africa is less changed from our RL timeline (up to 1997), especially the further you get from the Middle East. (I have an alternate southern Africa timeline I've been working on about President Mandela and WW3, but that is another story).

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

Ted

The Division Cuba we are talking about here is the Soviet Division Cuba that in the V1 and V2 timeline assists the Mexicans in their invasion of Texas.

As for Angola the war must have went on, with the Cubans eventually being defeated and withdrawing - as a regiment that was part of that withdrawal and their defeat in Angola is in the Spanish Main module.

Be interesting to see how much hardware the Cubans would have given the Soviets when they got sent to Texas as the improvised Soviet Division Cuba - they had the one motor rifle regiment there but the rest would have little more than side arms and possibly some AK's - and if the division must have had more equipment given to it by the Cubans to be able to stand up to the 49th Armored and defeat it

[unkated]

The Division Cuba we are talking about here is the Soviet Division Cuba that in the V1 and V2 timeline assists the Mexicans in their invasion of Texas.

I'm well aware of what the Division Cuba is. However, if you look back at the message I was replying to, HorseSoldier was talking about the number of Cuban troops, what they were, and where they were; he mentioned Angola.

My point was that the answer depends a lot on which timeline you use. In RL (and V2 timelines), the Cuban army (and its equipment) is mostly home in Cuba. Spanish Main is not a V2 timeline, but that is easy enough to fix.

In a V1 timeline, there are other possibilities. Also, a continued war (and losses) means Cuban equipment destroyed in Angola would need to be replaced - by T-72s rather than T-62s, and possible a T-80s (or plans for T-80s, meaning some would be delivered to the Soviet training teams to start tatrining Cubans). On the other hand, disasterous losses would leave the Cubans unlikely to be willing to part with any equipment, since by the beginning of 1997, the Soviets aren't likely to have any to spare for a while (in any timeline).

[Olefin]

One thing that is interesting is that the Cubans never got involved in the war in anyway - the official canon is that they were too scared to get nuked by the US but by 2000 that is not exactly a huge threat (as the canon implies that any warheads the US has left have all been taken to Colorado Springs - at least as to the ones at airbases or in missile silos).

The one thing that probably kept them out was oil and gas supplies - they basically were depending on the Soviets pretty much exclusively at that time. However you would figure that would make them even more prone to join the war to try to grab any supplies they could once the US started to fall apart in 1999.

Maybe they put all their eggs into Africa in the V1 timeline and between that and supplying the Soviet Division Cuba with equipment they dont have much left in the way of armor or mechanized equipment.

I usually use V1 by the way mainly because of the paucity of official releases for V2

[unkated]

Thinking about it (I tended to think about the NE in the US), I would agree that unless the Cuban people were extremely unhappy with the Castros, while they might lay low in 1997 & 98, by 1999, I have trouble seeing how they could resist tweaking Uncle Sam's beard - kicking the fallen giant.

No need to keep and hold turf (though some central/southern Florida cropland would not have been a bad thing) - raid!

Cuban soldiery raiding, using small flotillas of fishing boats. Land, shoot up any resistance, and make off with food, weapons, finished goods.

Cuba, actually, is well set up for 1997 and a cutting off of Soviet-supplied oil in that they have industrial-sized distilleries and grow sugar cane. No, you cannot fly aircraft using it, but you can power motor boats and vehicles.

It's got possibilities.

"Today, the forces of the People's republic of Cuba brought enlightenment and freedom to the town of Jupiter, Florida, ending a reign of terror by its local police. The grateful townspeople donated 4 tons of canned goods, a ton of recently harvested oranges, and two 20-ft sailing vessels to the free people of Cuba. Viva la Revolucion!"

[Olefin]

Actually I was also thinking about how the Cubans might want to really say hi to the New Americans as well -you have to admit their manifesto is not exactly Latin American friendly - and given what they were doing in Grenada I could see Castro's people really wanting to give them a good butt kicking

and you are right - Cuba may not have a lot of oil but they sure have sugarcane - could easily see them being the targets of raiders themselves - after all that much ethanol is a real prize

and Cuban medical supplies and doctors right now in 2001 are literally worth their weight in gold

[Olefin]

"Today, the forces of the People's republic of Cuba brought enlightenment and freedom to the town of Jupiter, Florida, ending a reign of terror by its local police. The grateful townspeople donated 4 tons of canned goods, a ton of recently harvested oranges, and two 20-ft sailing vessels to the free people of Cuba. Viva la Revolucion!"

Now that sounds like the start of a very interesting module right there

[jester]

But, do the Cubans have the sealift capability to land a force sizable enough that won't get wiped out by Buba, his cousins and their shotguns without even reaching dry sand?

Would such an operation be worth the expenditure in fuel? For propaganda purposes sure, to the diehard Marxists. But, I doubt most Cubans are true followers of the "Workers Revolution." When in reality most are simply scraping by.

I would wager that most of the populations lives are pretty hard without a war and now would get much harder without oil and aid and the limited trade it had. I think the ruling elite and military would be very worried about a revolt by the disaffected masses.

And with that scenario, DIA or even some Free Cubans in exile could see that and do raids of their own....maybe land a few SF teams to get the disaffected masses riled up and topple the Castro regime.

[Olefin]

Which could also explain why the Cubans are getting out of Dodge in Africa - maybe things back home are dicey for them because the US government isn't there anymore to restrain Free Cuban groups - and they are making lots of trouble for Castro at home

[jester]

I can think of a lot of reasons why they would get out of Africa.

They can't maintain their lines of communication and supply in Africa. They see the writing on the wall, that Africa even its true believers won't be controlled by Havana and its advisors and personnel will be tolerated but only to an extent. Or, they have even been told informaly of course they are no longer welcome.

Although, I really don't think true revolutionaries would care if their people were left behind to fend for themselves. After all the individual is nothing compared to the people and easily sacrificed. Other than face or propaganda I just don't see Cuba really giving a damn if its people were left to be sliced to ribbons by pangas dripping red with blood....unless they could use it for political/propaganda purposes.

[Olefin]

I think its more a case of them being defeated in Africa by the South Africans and their allies - most likely because their supply lines got cut by the war - or something like I had in my East African book where the South Africans got nuked by the Soviets (refineries I mean) and the South Africans got payback - and took out a lot of the Cuban air support and forces in the meantime

remember with the V1 timeline apartheid never falls - and that means that the South Africans still have their nukes when the war starts

[unkated]

But, do the Cubans have the sealift capability to land a force sizable enough that won't get wiped out by Buba, his cousins and their shotguns without even reaching dry sand?

Sure. 20-30 Cubans with AKMs and an RPK or two off Bubba and his family easily and make off with his stash before the cousins show up.

Would such an operation be worth the expenditure in fuel?

Not much by sail, perhaps an engine for the last few miles.


I would wager that most of the populations lives are pretty hard without a war and now would get much harder without oil and aid and the limited trade it had.

I bet that since the difference between before and after is far less for Cubans than for say Americans, the change would be less noticeable. Indeed, for some, there would be no difference.

Further, I'd suggest that the Castro regime is practiced at keeping control in tense periods.


And with that scenario, DIA or even some Free Cubans in exile could see that and do raids of their own....

Not a good way to keep several thousand well-armed Cubans from not deciding to throw in with the Mexicans and Russians.

Uncle Ted

[Darth Stalin]

Maybe someone is still interested in digging out that thread and know more about the Soviet brigade in Cuba, so here it is:

7th Independent Motorised Rifle Brigade (7-я Особая мотострелковая бригада), Military Unit No: 52388

Activated in April 1963 in Narokko, Cuba, from the 496th Motorised Rifle Regiment (activated in June 1962 from parts of the 132nd Guards Motorised Rifle Regiment).
Dec 1st, 1987 renamed 12th Training Center. Disbanded June 1991.


Organisation 1980:

3rd independent Motorised Rifle Battalion
4th independent Motorised Rifle Battalion
20th independent Motorised Rifle Battalion
5th independent Tank Battalion
42nd independent Artillery Battalion
?? independent Anti-Aircraft Artillery Battalion
?? independent Reactive Artillery Battalion
?? independent Reconnaissance Company
?? independent Engineer-Sapper Company
?? independent Chemical Defence Platoon
?? independent Communications Company
?? independent Material Supply Company

Manpower & equipment 1989:
• 2738 men, 40 tanks, 40 BMP and 80 BTR

Brigade coordinates:
• Narokko base/barracks: 22 58 19N, 82 20 35W - some parts were located in Torrance, Cuba

[kato13]

Pretty nice first post. Welcome aboard.

[Darth Stalin]

Pretty nice first post. Welcome aboard.

Just trying to do my best :)
Long time ago I've used to play T:2000 as both player and GM; and these were nice old days...

And I always regretted that there was still so little known 'bout the Soviet/WarPact forces, so when such knowledge became available, then why should it be kept unknown to the others?

BTW: I've also wondered, if in the T:2000 universe the US 9th Inf Div (lt Mot.) would be reformed into "heavy" mech division, as were the last plans for it, arranged for FY 90 & 91 in real universe, approved but never executed ue to end of the Cold War.

[Adm.Lee]

BTW: I've also wondered, if in the T:2000 universe the US 9th Inf Div (lt Mot.) would be reformed into "heavy" mech division, as were the last plans for it, arranged for FY 90 & 91 in real universe, approved but never executed ue to end of the Cold War.

This is news to me! I've wondered about the 9th, since I read in someone's '89 NATO OoB, that the 9th was given a wartime mission to Norway or Denmark. Going to either location as light-motor seems unlikely, light-foot or heavy makes more sense.

[dragoon500ly]

This is news to me! I've wondered about the 9th, since I read in someone's '89 NATO OoB, that the 9th was given a wartime mission to Norway or Denmark. Going to either location as light-motor seems unlikely, light-foot or heavy makes more sense.

During this period, the 9th is part of I Corps, it was made up of two light/motorized brigades, a NG mechanized brigade (round out), as well as a combat aviation brigade. The 9th also had an additional NG armored battalion and a USAR engineer combat battalion, a RA engineer battalion and a CH47 aviation company, the 2-75 Ranger battalion, the 1st Special Forces Group and the 35th ADA Brigade are affiliated.

I Corps was intended for use along the Pacific Rim, along with the reinforcement of South Korea in the event of a NK attack.

[Darth Stalin]

During this period, the 9th is part of I Corps, it was made up of two light/motorized brigades, a NG mechanized brigade (round out), as well as a combat aviation brigade. The 9th also had an additional NG armored battalion and a USAR engineer combat battalion, a RA engineer battalion and a CH47 aviation company, the 2-75 Ranger battalion, the 1st Special Forces Group and the 35th ADA Brigade are affiliated.

I Corps was intended for use along the Pacific Rim, along with the reinforcement of South Korea in the event of a NK attack.

Read more about that here:
http://www.history.army.mil/books/DAHSUM/1989/CH5.htm#C5N6

Conversion of the 9th Infantry Division (Motorized)

The 9th Infantry Division (Motorized) was conceived by the Army leadership as a test bed for the design of a high technology, motorized light division. Advocates believed that it offered distinctive advantages in strategic deployability and sustainability and a high degree of tactical mobility and lethality if properly equipped, and at a low cost. Advocates contended the division could effectively meet mid-intensity and regional threats usually addressed by heavy conventional forces. In 1988 the Army ended this experiment and began to convert the division to a mechanized infantry design. Congress had refused to fund a light attack vehicle (LAV) and an armored gun system (AGS) that the Army considered necessary for a motorized division. The AGS, a twenty-ton tracked vehicle that mounted a 105-mm. rapid-f ire cannon that could be airlifted in a C-130, was canceled in 1987. The configuration and role of the 9th Infantry Division (Motorized) raised many doctrinal issues regarding the feasibility of organizing specialized divisions whose equipment was not standardized throughout the Army 's force structure. Other questions concerned the suitability of the division's equipment for its intended mission. For example, the HMMWV, the centerpiece of the motorized concept, seemed to lack the payload and armor protection to serve as a weapons carrier or platform .

Conversion of the 9th Division from a motorized to a mechanized division proceeded slowly in FY 1989. The Army liquidated the unorthodox test agency, the Army Development and Employment Agency, which had tried to adapt off-the-shelf, high-technology systems to the motorized division concept. A decision on the division's conversion to mechanized awaited approval of an environmental impact statement, not executed until FY 1990, regarding the effect of mechanized operations at Fort Lewis. The Army inactivated the division's 2d Brigade in FY 1988 to meet end strength reductions called for in the FY 1989 amended Army budget. In mid-FY 1989 the 9th Division's two active brigades, the 1st and 3d, each had three combined arms battalions (CAB). The 1st Brigade had a combined arms battalion (heavy) with two assault gun companies and an infantry company, a combined arms battalion (light) with two infantry companies and an assault gun company, and an armor battalion. The 3d Brigade was composed of a combined arms battalion (heavy), a combined arms battalion (light), and a light attack battalion of HMMWVs mounted with Tube-Launched, Optically Tracked, Wire-Guided Missiles (TOWs) and machine guns. The division's third brigade was replaced by an ARNG roundout brigade, the 81st Mechanized Brigade of the Washington ARNG .

The division's organization in FY 1989 was temporary pending a study of several configurations. One configuration envisioned a division of three brigades-armored, mechanized, and motorized. On 18 May 1989, the Chief of Staff endorsed planning that entailed creating a division of four armored, three mechanized infantry, and three motorized battalions and directed TRADOC to develop an appropriate AirLand Battle doctrine for this configuration. He also directed TRADOC to avoid impinging on the heavy modernization plan as it developed the division's design and to study the feasibility of adopting the Marine Corps' widely used Light Armored Vehicle (LAV-25). During FY 1989 General Vuono approved the conversion of two of the division's CAB (Light) battalions to mechanized infantry battalions. Planners were also entertaining a heavy design configuration of five armored battalions and five mechanized infantry battalions in an Army of Excellence design as a long-term goal.

and here:

http://www.history.army.mil/books/DAHSUM/1990-91/ch08.htm#n3

On 5 February 1989, QUICKSILVER directed restructuring the 9th Infantry Division (Motorized) by 1991 to a separate motorized brigade with a strength of 3,900 men. Inactivation of the 9th, formerly known as the High Technology Light Division (HTLD), began in FY 90, but official inactivation of the division was rescheduled for 15 August 1992. Having inactivated its 2d Brigade in February 1988, the 9th inactivated its 1st Brigade in FY 90 and both its Division Artillery and 3d Brigade on 15 February 1991. The soldiers and equipment of the 3d Brigade were re-formed into the separate 199th Infantry Brigade.

[Olefin]

Maybe someone is still interested in digging out that thread and know more about the Soviet brigade in Cuba, so here it is:

7th Independent Motorised Rifle Brigade (7-я Особая мотострелковая бригада), Military Unit No: 52388

Activated in April 1963 in Narokko, Cuba, from the 496th Motorised Rifle Regiment (activated in June 1962 from parts of the 132nd Guards Motorised Rifle Regiment).
Dec 1st, 1987 renamed 12th Training Center. Disbanded June 1991.


Organisation 1980:

3rd independent Motorised Rifle Battalion
4th independent Motorised Rifle Battalion
20th independent Motorised Rifle Battalion
5th independent Tank Battalion
42nd independent Artillery Battalion
?? independent Anti-Aircraft Artillery Battalion
?? independent Reactive Artillery Battalion
?? independent Reconnaissance Company
?? independent Engineer-Sapper Company
?? independent Chemical Defence Platoon
?? independent Communications Company
?? independent Material Supply Company

Manpower & equipment 1989:
• 2738 men, 40 tanks, 40 BMP and 80 BTR

Brigade coordinates:
• Narokko base/barracks: 22 58 19N, 82 20 35W - some parts were located in Torrance, Cuba

Add in other elements based in Cuba (advisors, technicians, etc.) that get converted to ground troops, add some more tanks and BTR's (gifts from the Cubans to get them out of their hair) and some helos and you basically have a good size division (by 1998 standards) right there