Alternative Fuels

[Mohoender]

Hey, never thought of it but as many cars over Europe are diesel, regular vegetable oil (olive, wheat, peannuts...) would be used more often than alcohol. In some regions that is easier to make.

With the oil price today, people are already using this (illegaly) here in France. Moreover, my wife's father used it as a lubricant and would tell you that it works better than petroleum.

Thinks about the general smell in T2K. Each time you fry something you fill up your tank;) .

[kato13]

Given methanol production as described in the rules is nearly impossible, and reworking a diesel engine for alcohol is very difficult, this is very likely. I hope to have some sort of realistic organic fuel production rules/equipment list ready by the spring.

[Marc]

That's a good point Mohoender! After the last and demoralizing post of Kato about methanol production ;) I was near to tell to my players: "Ok, everybody out that Hum-Vee. This thing no longer works. I know,...I know, but rules has changed. Chemistry is Chemistry..."

[kato13]

My original methanol post

I don't want to ruin anyone's game with science :(

You could say that in the T2k timeline, cellulose (wood) processing yeast or bacterium was developed to make ethanol (not methanol). IIRC there were over 300 collegiate papers on Ecoli producing ethanol from wood published before 1995. A similar number for yeast were also published.

In reality we are just getting to that point now with yeast and 3 different bacterium. If you want to keep the current rules (doubling the fermentation time however) you could say that specially bred yeast or bacterium are available. Since it is a biological it could be reproduced and distributed quickly.

I defiantly do that in my Morrow game but advanced tech is commonplace there. The HMMWV would have needed a tremendously overhaul, most likely an engine swap to run on ethanol as it cannot run on Gasoline. The source books made another error on that fact.

I am going to look for a morrow project post i made on this a while ago. It was removed from rpghost in the great purge.

[kato13]

But here comes the good news. Ethanol.

Ethanol is produced naturally by many biological organisms. Its production is probably one of the most well documented chemical processes man has ever performed. The biggest problem is that natural ethanol production uses up raw materials (sugar) which could otherwise be used as food. The goal is production of ethanol from wood or agricultural waste (cellulose), this happens naturally on a small scale, but not at levels desired by industry. That is where scientists come in.

Through the use of genetic manipulation yeast and at least 3 bacterium have been shown to be able to produce significant amounts ethanol from cellulose. In case anyone wants to do any research they are Zymomonas mobilis, Clostridium thermocellum, Saccharomyces cerevisiae (bakers yeast), and Escherichia coli.


In my game Morrow scientists have developed what are considered to be the 2 Holy grails of ethanol production.

Species
Saccharomyces morrowis (ethanol resistant yeast used for sugar based ethanol production)
Able to survive up to a 25% ethanol solution.
Able to ferment to a 18% solution in 24 hours.
Minimal genetic Drift (this is important as yeast can mutate quickly)


Zymomonas morrowis (bacterium capable of processing both sugars and cellulose)
Able to survive up to a 15% ethanol solution.
Able to ferment to a 10% solution in 48 hours.
Able to enzymatically initiate Cellulose hydrolysis

The last note means the cellulose will require minimal pretreatment. Normally pretreatment requires sulfuric acid, which can be reused but complicates things, or an enzymatic solution which requires a constant supply of enzymes unless managed very carefully.

Both of these organisms would be fantastic for trade with any brewers. The Zymomonas would probably be the most valuable as only the largest or technologically advanced cities would have the infrastructure to process cellulose into ethanol, and if they were doing so it would be at great cost.

On to stills.

If you are using normal world technology T2K vastly overestimated the weight of an empty still IMHO. They are closer when compared to the weight of a still while in production.

A minimal still consists of the following
55 gal (208 L) steel drums. 31.8 kg empty (2)
fermentation lock (pressure valve) 4 kg
multi fuel barrel boiling units. 15kg
barrel bands, heating, electric 3kg
Mixing centrifugal pump 6kg
Ethanol Refining Tower 50 kg. (takes to 96% pure)
Molecular Sieve Ethanol Dehydrator w/ zeolite 50kg (takes to 100%)
Metal Piping 10kg
PVC piping 8kg
Hand Pump 8kg
Barrel Cooling Coil 5kg

Regular non genetic engineered yeast can reach a 8-10% alcohol solution in 40 hours. So theoretically in 2 days with just 2 drums (to allow transfer and collection) you could produce 10 liters a day (with morrow yeast you could triple that). At a weight under 250kg empty, 500kg full. And you can scale barrels up to about 15 before you need a another dehydrator and up to 50 before you need another Refinery tower and efficiency only goes up with larger scale.

Other equipment is needed for the material preparation (seed grinders, wood chippers, mashers etc) but I don't consider that to be the weight of the still.

I know that the T2k people wanted to keep things simple. and make a still a tough choice weight wise, but the real world numbers don't add up even when you factor in the ad hoc nature of most still construction in that world. They should have at least made quality options where price goes up as weight goes down.

Someday I will make a full document with stills and bio-diesel production kits with high/medium/low tech options but I have too much on my plate at the moment and as you can see I sometimes get trapped in the minutia and I still have a ton of research to do.

[Mohoender]

Everyone seem to have forgotten another point ;) . Spain has plenty of vineyards, not to talk about France, Italy, California, Hungary, Chile, Australia (even Vermont as some and the guy makes a failry good ice wine) ...

That will produce a lot of ethanol and actually it already does. However, much less than 50 years ago as it has become a great sin to be drunk.:D

People are currently talking about second generation bioethanol gas using waste parts of the plants. I found that funny, as the industry with which I was working 15 years ago was already producing ethanol from the parts of grapes that remains when you are making wine. of course it was not fuel but still it was ethanol. Building what you need to do it is not that difficult getting a pure product is a little harder, then. The smell is hard too as the decaying process is fairly long but, after armageddon, who cares? Personnaly, I find insane to grow corn to make fuel; who is the jerk who came up with that idea.

Russia will be fine, tanks will run on vodka, and that won't change much for the crew.:D

For oil, you just need a stone basket and a round stone press :). Every little village in the Douro Valley of Portugal still has one of these things.

In my own village of the south of France, I know at least 5 or 6 people who could produce one or another (in small quantity but they still can).:D I also bet that people living in some remote places of the US retain such capacity.

By the way, I'm not sure if it is the case with the Leclerc, but the AMX-30s were known to run on about anything but water.

I forgot one, I met an old man (probably dead by now) who whas making a terrific 78% calva from apple. That was not his strongest and trust me he didn't know anything about technology.

[bigehauser]

That stuff stinks, stinkier when it goes bad, stinkiest if it is being reused.

[Mohoender]

That stuff stinks, stinkier when it goes bad, stinkiest if it is being reused.

I can see that you already experienced this.:D

[bigehauser]

All males have left the cooking pan filled with that stuff for a tad too long after cooking, only to come home one day going "wtf is that smell?"

[jester]

And lets not forget methane. Today they have vehicles that are powered by compressed natural gas and propane. Well, they also have methane digesters for some communities, and hog, cattle and dairy farms.

The animal waste is washed into a tank or pool that is covered and the methane that bubbles up is collected and used to fuel the generators making the farm self sufficient with their own generator, some of the power is actualy fed back into the power grid.

Now, imagine the collection continues, it fills removable tanks that are then installed in vehicles <it is pretty easy to alter vehicles to run on such gas and the effiency is more or less the same> Then you can run your gasoline powered vehicles at a normal rate. with less wear since gasoline is a caustic substance as well. And really swapping out a empty fuel tank for a full one, well, you just need a means of lifting it into the bracket and disconnect the coupling and change. The only downside of course is you have a volitile gas that is compressed that could be problematic if its used as a combat vehicle, but then just add a little extra armor. But, I would take my chances as the speed and manuverability would be much better than a vehicle running on alcohol.

Mo, yes most American vehicles now are called "multi fuel" so the swap over would be easier as I understand.

[Mohoender]

True for methane. I don't know the name of these things in english but cars in WWII were running on "Gazogène". Actually I'm not sure there is a translation for it.

http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/eh/11.4/pearson.html

[Mohoender]

The previous website was put on only for the picture (didn't really looked at the content), that one is better i think. I had trouble finding one in english.

http://www.citroenmodelcars.nl/html/projects_U23_gazogene.htm

[jester]

Gotcha, makes sense. The flamible gases are given off durring the cooking process which is similiar to charcoaling. And the same thing that procudes methanol turns into methane, makes alot of sense. One is in liquoid form, the other is in gas form both with a little help from man.

[O'Borg]

*Dumb question from a non-T2Ker*
Aren't most NATO military vehicles diesel powered anyway? So why is everyone desperate for an alcohol fuel that works best in petrol engines?


Look up biodiesel on Wikipedia (as long as you have a free few hours). You can make it from all sorts of plants and oils, and its only the really modern hi-tech diesels that get finicky about fuel quality. The sort of low-stressed old fashioned engines most military vehicles have shouldn't have any trouble.

There's a fair amount of Rapeseed grown in Europe (least around my part of the UK there is) as its used for animal feed, but can be used for biodiesel quite effectively.

Of course, there's always the algae farm...

[jester]

that is the thing, most American vehicles these days are "multi fueled" so they burn on kerosen, diesel, gasoline etc.

As for the whole diesel, I know, we actualy brought this up on the yahoo discussion group and even Loren chimed in.

However, for gasoline powered vehicles, I again ask <since I learned about it in the last few years> methane/propane as fuel. With the bonuses I already wrote.

But, yeah, oil from all manner of plants and seeds and such is easily found from so many sources and it is more effieicnet than the alcohol fuel in the campaign.

[Targan]

There's a fair amount of Rapeseed grown in Europe (least around my part of the UK there is) as its used for animal feed, but can be used for biodiesel quite effectively.
Vast amounts of canola grown in Australia, canola oil is very much suitable for creating biodiesel. If you were in an area with lots of wild or cultivated cannabis you could extract hemp oil with equipment as simple as a cold press and use that to make biodiesel (and some medicinal cookies while you're at it).

Also as I've said in a post ages ago on the RPGHost forums, if you were really hard core (and probably homicidal and dangerously insane) you could rend the fat from the corpses of your vanquished enemies and make biodiesel out of the tallow. The more enemy you kill the further you can drive, to find more enemy to kill. And so on.

[Mohoender]

Hello everyone, I'm going back on an already old topic: gazogène. I found that nice drawing of one put on an older land rover.

It seems that someone in France has made a RPG very similar to T2K. Something funny about it is that in their game earth is plunged in darkness. That means no more plants which will make the use of this device quite complicated.

[Mohoender]

A few more info on that subject. It takes 3 to 4 minutes to start the vehicle and you can drive about 150 miles without refill (wood or coal). I haven't found anything on speed but as soon as I do I'll modify this.

Here is a picture of a true one. Thanks the Swiss, what would we do without them.:D

Ok I go for the last mod. I found that guy driving one nowadays (2nd picture with the Peugeot 504). it drives 300km (more or less 200 miles) with 60kg of wood and his car got a speeding ticket for driving above 90km/h.

[headquarters]

should be renamed the FUEL THREAD

seeing as fuel is a scarce commodity in T2k ,getting it is a priority .

gazogene or wood gas generator

A "wood gas" generator was used on Norwegian vehicles during the occupation 1940-45.

Its principle is simple :

wooden chips or specially kerosene impregnated wood blocks are burned slowly in an oven /combustion chamber with insufficient oxygen supply for full combustion.

This generates CO - carbonmonoxide- a gas that if mixed is volatile (!)

The gas must be cooled on its way to the combustionchamber in the engine to disperse its water content , and cleaned through a filter for soot particles etc .The gas is then let into the cylinder by a special valve and ignited through running a little bit of ordinary gasoline and starting the engine or if it is already hot - or already running smoothly on the gas/wood gas .So some gas/petrol or other more energy dense fuel is necessary.

hard woods like birch are best,all wood can be used though .They must be stripped of all the bark and be 100% dry as possible .Old drivers state that they could stop and cut dry wood in the forrest and add to the special kerosene/wood chip blocks to run the car .It really can run almost entirely on wood !

the oven needs an hour or two to heat up /produce gas before starting the drive -i.e starting the engine with petrol to get the cycle going .Also stopping once in a while and cleaning the oven with brooms etc for the excessive soot build up is necessary.Depending on the combustion rate maybe once every 100-200 km. The heat up etc would have to begin anew after this .

Some busdrivers talk about needing app 1 liter of gas pr 3 kg wood -but this could be less with more modern engines.

Speed and power is adversly affected -40 km /h seem to be common operating speed -but some cars could go faster-alot faster.

Also the vehicle gets very sooty and driver and passengers too.

here is a picture of a wood gas generator ona bus in eastern Norway during the war.Notice the wood piles left out to dry.

making a wood gas generator was mainly done as cottage industry in Norway ,but parts like the filter and the special valve were normally factory made in France,Belgium and other occupied countries as well as in local factories. It would seem that the fitting and modification could be done locally ,but that the parts were somewhat harder to make . (As anafterthought for the GM who now gets questions about making one from his players)

[kato13]

should be renamed the FUEL THREAD


Note:Thread Renamed Alternative Fuels.

Good idea. I can rename or split drifting threads pretty easily so if anyone feels that either process is necessary just give a shout out.
I will probably leave the "(was OLD THREAD NAME) portion of the thread name up for a week so people don't get confused.

[Mohoender]

Definitely a good idea. Thanks HQ for the speed estimation I had not found anything on it.

[headquarters]

Definitely a good idea. Thanks HQ for the speed estimation I had not found anything on it.

what is that french game called ? mayb ethere are images etc that I can use on the net ?

[headquarters]

Note:Thread Renamed Alternative Fuels.

Good idea. I can rename or split drifting threads pretty easily so if anyone feels that either process is necessary just give a shout out.
I will probably leave the "(was OLD THREAD NAME) portion of the thread name up for a week so people don't get confused.


thanks .

you ar edoing a great job with this forum -just as good as the old one or better maybe !!

please keep it up .

[kato13]

thanks .

you ar edoing a great job with this forum -just as good as the old one or better maybe !!

please keep it up .

Thank you for the complement. I only gave you guys the canvas, all of you make the artwork.

Remember I am open to any suggestion for improvements so feel free to let me know your thoughts.

[Mohoender]

what is that french game called ? mayb ethere are images etc that I can use on the net ?

Hello

Here is the link to it

http://solsys-ap.ifrance.com/

I think they have done a great job but saddly it's only in French. I prefer T2K but they have an interesting different approach. I haven't read everything but they seem to be somewhere between T2K and a french novel (about 40 books or so) called "la compagnie des glaces". I haven't found a translation of the title.

[kato13]

Ran it through Google translation

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://solsys-ap.ifrance.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result

Appears to have some Morrow Project commonality as well as there seems to be quite a focus on underground bases and caches.

[Graebarde]

Moved from Motoring after the Apocalypse 2; other Alternate Fuels - kato 13

While ethanol and methanol are the default fuels in T2k, they actually aren't the best fuels available. Wood Gas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas), mentioned over at RPG.net, is a widely used alternate fuel.

There's plenty of wood, and it's easily harvested. Here's a schematic of the system;

http://highforest.tripod.com/woodgas/woodgas.gif



The other fuel, especially suitable for military vehicles, is biodiesel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel). Often this uses ethanol as part of the process, but you can get a fuel almost as good as petroleum diesel without the hassle of invading Rumania.

Coal gas generation, right out of WW2 Germany (and other places) IS viable.

Another alternative fuel source is METHANE from composting all the latrines and manure you can aquire, as well as garbage. If for nothing more than to provide cooking gas and lighting, whether to run generator or burn in open flame. (TODAY it is criminal to me that EVERY municipal sewage system in the US does NOT have methane converters for thier system. "Too expensive". I say not smart enough. I recall many cities in Germay with them in the 70's-80's.)

BioDiesel as they wish to call it is what 'ole Ruddie used when he developed his engine in Germany (Diesel's engine). Straight run vegetable oil, perhaps filtered, but unprocessed. In the mid-80's when I went back to college I took and alternative fuels class. We went to an operating farm where the farmer was crushing his own unshelled sunflowers through an extruder screw. There naturally was some oil loss in the process, but that was ok to as the meal was fed to cattle, and the oil helped them. The sunoil however was only filtered through what was about the coursenss if a a bandana and placed into the tank of a diesel tractor (that has been emptied of diesel fuel). We dyno'd the tractor on diesel and sunoil. We observed it plowing heavy soil. Pleaseant smoke. NO significant difference in horsepower or performance was noted. Now the drawback to straight run is it WILL solidify under colder conditions, but so will biodiesel and genuine diesel fuels without additives.

The processing used in commercial production calls for methanol and potassium hydroxide, though I don't know why ethanol and sodium hydroxide would not work. What they are doing is called soaponification, which is partially making soap, to remove the heavy fats, leaving a gylcerol. My idea would be to sort of bypass this and not let the mix get super cold. If it does, heat it someway, perhaps steam?

AN acre of soybeans producing 20 bushels of seed (less than half the now common yield) will yield about 112 gallons (based on 25% oil, which is less than common as well). The problem arises in post-apoc is where do you get the seeds? What is grown today is hybrid. No true reproduction if you can even get it to germinate due to genetic engineering. Still a VERY good idea. Other crops to consider besides soybeans are sunflowers, rapeseed/canola, safflower, peanuts, cottonseed. This is not an all inclusive list, and YES, before I'm unindated, HEMP can be used as well.

As for alcohol production, any plant starchy/sugary or cellulose plant material can be used. Generally you get methanol from cellulose heavy material such as grass/straw/wood, while starchy/sugary yeild methanol. You need the starter yeasts and bacterias to make the transformations, at least in a more timely manner. It takes longer to breakdown the celluloses than convert the starch to sugars, but IMO alot of the starches would be divereted to much needed human consumption, and livestock would be back on grass post-apoc.

Don't mean to be critical to the ideas, as they ARE bonified. I always had problems of running a diesel engine with alcohol. IF it can, it would not do well as it burns too hot I think and the engine would burn up pretty fast.

ANY petroleum would be used for lubricants (motor oil and greases) first, then avgas and jet fuels. Just some input.

Grae

[Graebarde]

:eek: :( I SOULD READ ALL POSTS BEFORE REPLYING ANYWHERE, ESPECIALLY WHEN I PARROT SOMEONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kato13]

Don't worry. We are a very forgiving group ;) I'll move your post to this thread.

It is hard to know what to reply to. I usually start from the bottom up (chronologically) when I go to a forum and that means that redundant posts are bound to happen.

Another nice thing about having a live in moderator.

[headquarters]

Moved from Motoring after the Apocalypse 2; other Alternate Fuels - kato 13



Coal gas generation, right out of WW2 Germany (and other places) IS viable.

Another alternative fuel source is METHANE from composting all the latrines and manure you can aquire, as well as garbage. If for nothing more than to provide cooking gas and lighting, whether to run generator or burn in open flame. (TODAY it is criminal to me that EVERY municipal sewage system in the US does NOT have methane converters for thier system. "Too expensive". I say not smart enough. I recall many cities in Germay with them in the 70's-80's.)

BioDiesel as they wish to call it is what 'ole Ruddie used when he developed his engine in Germany (Diesel's engine). Straight run vegetable oil, perhaps filtered, but unprocessed. In the mid-80's when I went back to college I took and alternative fuels class. We went to an operating farm where the farmer was crushing his own unshelled sunflowers through an extruder screw. There naturally was some oil loss in the process, but that was ok to as the meal was fed to cattle, and the oil helped them. The sunoil however was only filtered through what was about the coursenss if a a bandana and placed into the tank of a diesel tractor (that has been emptied of diesel fuel). We dyno'd the tractor on diesel and sunoil. We observed it plowing heavy soil. Pleaseant smoke. NO significant difference in horsepower or performance was noted. Now the drawback to straight run is it WILL solidify under colder conditions, but so will biodiesel and genuine diesel fuels without additives.

The processing used in commercial production calls for methanol and potassium hydroxide, though I don't know why ethanol and sodium hydroxide would not work. What they are doing is called soaponification, which is partially making soap, to remove the heavy fats, leaving a gylcerol. My idea would be to sort of bypass this and not let the mix get super cold. If it does, heat it someway, perhaps steam?

AN acre of soybeans producing 20 bushels of seed (less than half the now common yield) will yield about 112 gallons (based on 25% oil, which is less than common as well). The problem arises in post-apoc is where do you get the seeds? What is grown today is hybrid. No true reproduction if you can even get it to germinate due to genetic engineering. Still a VERY good idea. Other crops to consider besides soybeans are sunflowers, rapeseed/canola, safflower, peanuts, cottonseed. This is not an all inclusive list, and YES, before I'm unindated, HEMP can be used as well.

As for alcohol production, any plant starchy/sugary or cellulose plant material can be used. Generally you get methanol from cellulose heavy material such as grass/straw/wood, while starchy/sugary yeild methanol. You need the starter yeasts and bacterias to make the transformations, at least in a more timely manner. It takes longer to breakdown the celluloses than convert the starch to sugars, but IMO alot of the starches would be divereted to much needed human consumption, and livestock would be back on grass post-apoc.

Don't mean to be critical to the ideas, as they ARE bonified. I always had problems of running a diesel engine with alcohol. IF it can, it would not do well as it burns too hot I think and the engine would burn up pretty fast.

ANY petroleum would be used for lubricants (motor oil and greases) first, then avgas and jet fuels. Just some input.

Grae

thanks -lots of useful info here -for RL and ingame.

[Graebarde]

thanks -lots of useful info here -for RL and ingame.

Theres a differance? :eek: :) I have found a LOT of useful RL information doing game research. I'm STILL trying to find consumptions for steam trains. I have some but again, lost them. (I HATE moving around!) Anyone have some sources I would love to have them. I realize there are numerous variable when it comes to that, more than with internal combustion, but relevance is the name. I do know it takes from 2-4 times as much water as fuel, and water sources are sometimes more difficult to get than the solid fuel, since you need CLEAN water, with LOW mineral content or your going to spend more time cleaning the boiler from buildup than running.

(some more useful trivia?) :)

Grae

[Brother in Arms]

As for Gasogene

I used to be a blacksmith, but I didn't have a good supply of blacksmith coal and I was too poor to have it shipped to me. I tried using other types of coals but with poor results. However my now ex-girlfriends father had a saw mill with lots of wood scraps from the process, so I built a charcoal maker.

Very primitive in design..but it was a 55 gallon drum with a bunch of holes shot through it for air. It also had a old wheel hub from a truck in the center of it which the fire was built around. I built the fire using the waste slab wood from the mill, old news papers for kindling and spoiled heating oil from a freind who was a furnace repair man. while the fire was going I would pack more wood tightly into a 30 gallon grease drum (which had been power washed). Once the fire was going well I would place a 30 gallon grease drum on the fire and it sat on top of the old truck wheel hub. The grease drum had no holes except for it had a nail hole in its tightly sealing top. I would continue to add slabs into the oil drum as the fire burned down. As the wood in the grease drum was burned without allowing oxygen (or destructively distilled) it turned the wood into charcoal. All the while dark brownish to greenish grey smoke would pour out the hole in the lid. If the lid was actually airtight it would have blown off. However if you took a burning splint and put it to the smoke it would ignite and burn about 3 inches off the top of the hole in the barrel like a propane gas pilot.

My ex's dad was a small engine repair man and he always wanted to try to trap and pressurize the gas much like they do with methane gas using an inverted cone in a concrete tube with water above it. As the gas pressure increases the cone rises and eventually the gas will condensate at the right pressure into a liquid where it can be tapped off much like LNG.

However it never got more advanced than a simple charcoal maker.

Brother in Arms

[Graebarde]

Great info Bro,
Necessity works wonders for ingenuity. Thinking on that project for charcoal, it makes wonderful sense, and simplicity is awesome. As fro trapping the gas, a copper line from the hole to the storage unit. If your doing pine, you can also distill the gas for wood spirits (turpintine), or so I've heard.

Sounds like a realatively quick set up too after scrounging the materials. Hard part is chopping the wood. And for practical purposes your smithing fuel becomes free.

BTW how long would it take to char a can of wood? And how much fuel was used to char the can?

You also realize other than for smithing, this is the first step for black powder production. ;)

Grae
(a guy who admires primative and obsolete technology)

[Targan]

You also realize other than for smithing, this is the first step for black powder production. ;)
Great point Grae.

[Brother in Arms]

Grae
it was relatively easy to get set up my ex's dad had everything I needtd on site of course he did live in a junk yard.

As for time it took several hours to char a 30 gallon can completely. There is a lot of moisture, wood alcohol ect. that has to be burned off in a piece of wood to turn it into charcoal. As for how much charcoal it made, it made a full 50 lbs grain bag. I can't really say how much is weighed because it was very light for the volume of charcoal you obtained. One thing to note is the fire had to be completely burned out cold before you could open the charcoal barrel. In fact I would let the fire in the drum burn out completely then remove the char coal barrel from it and make sure it was completely cold before opening which took several hours. The reason for this is I had made char cloth before (for catching sparks when making flint and steel fires) and if you open the tin or in this case the barrel too soon the charcoal is still super heated and exposure to air would cause it to burst into flame!

I tried several woods, pine burned very hot but cracked and snapped relentlessly. Hard wood didn't snap or and was denser charcoal so I think it put out more BTU overall but the pine put out heat faster so I would use the pine to get the hardwood charcoal going in my forge. As for gunpowder I thought about making it but the best charcoal for that is willow or alder wood and I didn't have any of that around.

I also bought manufactured natural charcoal at the hardware store and it coast about $15 per 25 lbs bag. But since I had all the free wood scraps around and my ex's dad was a bit of a tinkerer it worked out great.

I am now thinking of making a new blacksmith shop after a long hiatus in blacksmithing but instead of charcoal make a Natural gas forge and convert it to methane! Many blacksmiths now use propane forges but as I might be living on a farm soon and I thought building a methane digester for horse waste would be a great idea and convert a propane forge to methane. The major difference is the size of the gas apertures.

But we shall see I am not sure where I am going to end up at this point.

Brother in Arms

[pmulcahy11b]

Hello

Here is the link to it

http://solsys-ap.ifrance.com/

I think they have done a great job but saddly it's only in French. I prefer T2K but they have an interesting different approach. I haven't read everything but they seem to be somewhere between T2K and a french novel (about 40 books or so) called "la compagnie des glaces". I haven't found a translation of the title.

Are there electronic versions? If so, there may be hope of using a computer program to have them translated, at least to the point where one gets the gist of it.

[headquarters]

Theres a differance? :eek: :) I have found a LOT of useful RL information doing game research. I'm STILL trying to find consumptions for steam trains. I have some but again, lost them. (I HATE moving around!) Anyone have some sources I would love to have them. I realize there are numerous variable when it comes to that, more than with internal combustion, but relevance is the name. I do know it takes from 2-4 times as much water as fuel, and water sources are sometimes more difficult to get than the solid fuel, since you need CLEAN water, with LOW mineral content or your going to spend more time cleaning the boiler from buildup than running.

(some more useful trivia?) :)

Grae
since there is a char in our campaign who controls an armoured train this is rather interesting news.For the moment he is in the northwest ,but should he decide to travel to a drier spot hehehe..

[Graebarde]

Thanks for the info Bro. I'll be interested in hearing how the methane forge goes. I would think it would work for heating as well as, or nearly so, as propane. We used propane for most of our hot iron work, but because it was quick to get going and shut down for smaller projects. IF we had a bigger one, we called my uncle to do it on his forge. That man was very good with metals. He welded a broken head off a cast iron hydraulic ram on. Took him almost two weeks I guess, and he slept by the forge between jobs. Saved the county big bugs, it was in the 30's. Don't know if you've worked cast iron, but he knew the heating tricks. If I could be 10th as good as he was.. ah well.


And for the train water. I helped demolish a water purification plant on the Great Northern (no BNSF) back in summer of 66. The had to treat all the water for the steam engines. It was an interesting job. I recall 'collecting' some interesting maps and papers from the office. The place hadn't been used in over ten years when we went into tear it down, board by board. HARDWOOD T&G walls and floors, with TWO tanks that held 30000 gallons each easy made from T&G redwood. The RR spared no expense when the plant was built back sometime before WW1. But like I said, water is the key element to steam operations. Good water, which is hard to find. I do know enough chemistry to know the minerals can be percolated off with addition of other chemicals, but dang if I can remember what those other chemicals are.

Head scratching,
later,
Grae

[Mohoender]

I haven't read everything again on this post. Sorry if I'm giving a bad type of info or repeating someone else saying.

However, I have seen Grae talking about diesel and alcohol and that interested me: it can't work. However, diesel engine were designed for heavy oil and they would work on any type of oil (from arachid to olive). You can put about 50% of vegetable oil in any diesel engine and 100% if you can attached some eating device on it.

About Gazogene, the last info I had is that are used again. Older model type are still workable and they would use coal, wood, or anything that can burnt. However, you need some time to start the engine. Newer models are fun so; they use specific type of wood and are more expensive to run than gas vehicles.:D

Nice point about Methane, every town and city could burry their trashes and get some.

[Graebarde]

http://www.krykiet.com/polish_steam.htm

This is a link I stumbled across in my quest to find the fuel consumption data for steam trains (yes Virginia I love steam operations, be they rail, water (though I prefer sail on water) or tractive motors (tractors as used in agriculture and lumbering)). Anyway it brought to mind the Going Home module where they have a train in it. It is now 2008 RL and they are still using steam power on this section of rail in northwestern Poland. What a grand scheme I can think of for playing that our.

Grae
lover of 'obsolete' technology

PS. didn't know where to put this, didn't think it really deserved a new thread.

[Graebarde]

I have managed to find some figures finally. One publication I found on line and managed to get a .pdf of deals with steam operations of all nature is Steam Engines by Ludy, dated 1913. According to his works, at the 1901 St Louis Exposition they tested several steam engines of the period. He's quoted as saying one pound of coal will evaporate one gallon of water. Now it takes some math as there are varibles, such as the load pulled of course and grades etc, but it come out simple (vs. compound type steam engines) freight engines used about 24 pounds of water per engine hp per hour, which would be three pounds of coal at the 8:1 ratio. Passenger engines used a bit less at about 21 pounds of water. Compound engines use about 1-3 pounds of water less for the same operation (more effecient).

I also found a site where they have a restored 4-8-2 "Mountain" of Frisco heritage. It is oil fired with Bunker C oil (#6 Fuel). This engine is about 3600 hp at the rails, with a tractive effort of 56800 pounds. It uses 100 gallons of water and 14 gallons of oil per MILE. The tender for this carries 4500 gal. of fuel oil and 11700 gallons of water. The engine boiler holds an addtional 4000 gallons of water. They also have an auxillary tender for water that hols 13000 gallons since the water towers of old that use to be every 50 miles or so are long gone. He also stated on the site that they have to stop and service the engine ever 125 miles or so, that is greasing and oiling. It takes the better part of an hour for a large crew (not the two man engine crew, but a service crew) to do the lube job.

For diesel-electrics I found some information in military manuals on line (and they are more current than the ones I have in storage by a generation LOL). For DE they use a planning figure of 2.5 gallons per mile or 11 gallons an hour in light load (such as switchers which sit a lot).

So, rail is thirsty, but the ton-miles per gallon beat the pants off trucks. An EMD GP38-2 2000 hp DE can pull a 1300 ton train at 10 mph. Note there is an inverse relationship to tractive effort and speed. As speed increases the amount you pull lowers, so the 1300 tons at 10 mph, will only be in the neighborhood of 4-500 tons at 30 mph or so. However that too has many variables such as rolling resistance due to track condition and wheel bearings, as well as controling grade and curvature, and weather.

But a 1300 ton train made up of say 25 cars grossing 50 tons (25 of it cargo), would be the same as 40 trucks. A truck can haul 20 tons, but since we are using the reduced tonnage in the train (it usually cubes out before it weights out) Lets make the need to haul it 100 miles for easy figuring. Train uses 250 gallons of fuel (2.5 gallons/mile), travels 10 mph and makes one trip. The 40 trucks will burn about 16 gallons each at 6 mpg, for total of 640 gallons of fuel to move the same cargo the same distance. Yes they can make two trips in the time it takes to make one for the train, BUT at what cost.

Now this brings me to the next question. BOTH vehicles can burn vegetable oil with minor problems, the train easier than the trucks btw since they already have preheaters which most trucks do not unless they run up north. As previously mentioned (at least I think I did) soybeans yielding 40 bushels of beans yielding 25% oil will provide 75 gallons of SBO. In post TDM, figure yields of about half if you're lucky.

Another side note on fuel consumptions. The planning figures I looked at, and have been for over 30 years, show a heavy division uses about 600,000 gallons of JP8 a DAY! That's nearly 8000 acres of soybeans to keep ONE division moving ONE day. So you can see, unless you can really get ramped up and fast, armies will be back to muscle-powered movement more so than even the canon depicts. Pwesonally I think it would be much like the Great War (WWI) as far as mobility goes, with very few motorized vehicles. (note: I edited this because I had one too many zeros in the inital yield, which made a MAJOR difference)

Just my two cents
Grae

[Graebarde]

However, I have seen Grae talking about diesel and alcohol and that interested me: it can't work. However, diesel engine were designed for heavy oil and they would work on any type of oil (from arachid to olive). You can put about 50% of vegetable oil in any diesel engine and 100% if you can attached some eating device on it.

Mo I think there was some confusion here. Sorry if I didn't explain it fully.

What I was trying to get across, you do NOT burn alcohol in a diesel engine, just as you do not burn gasoline, though you can in a multi-fuel engine which also has plugs. However in refinement of biodiesel they use alcohol a solute for the hydroxide which soaponifies the veg. oil. YES you can run the oil straight with minor problems. One thing that needs to be done if your running straight VO is to have some heater for the oil in the tank, which helps with the vaporization since the vescosity is heavier than diesel. Also periodically you should (if possible) add some mineral oil to the tank. This provides lubrication to the injectors. The VO does not do the job as well as the mineral oil, causing early injector failures. I have seen figures of 1 QT per 100 gallons. If your running blended biodiesel this is not required.


Grae

[chico20854]

Some fuel consumption figures for various US Navy ships, in barrels/nautical mile, at economy cruising speed:

CG-47 Aegis cruiser: 2.46
FFG-7 Perry-class frigate: .98
USS Midway aircraft carrier: 4.09
Newport-class LST: .81
Tarawa-class LHA: 3.91
Sealift-class tanker: 1.9
Cape D-class ro/ro: .92

[Targan]

Some fuel consumption figures for various US Navy ships, in barrels/nautical mile, at economy cruising speed:
Good info there. How about smaller vessels (more likely for PCs to be involved with)?

[chico20854]

Good info there. How about smaller vessels (more likely for PCs to be involved with)?
Some of the smaller ones on my web site's ship design page (http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/ship_designs.html):

USS Betsy Ross: 5.83 gallons/nm
Atlantik-class Soviet trawler: 8.5 tons diesel/day at 13 knots; 6.0 tons diesel/day at 12 knots
passenger-cruise boat: 3.24 gallons/nm at 10.5 knots
supply/salvage tug #2: 12.5 tons/day at 12 knots, 10.1 tons/day at 10 knots.

and...
NOAA's Rude, 12 tons of fuel goes 800nm at 10 knots!

[chico20854]

Another, more fuel efficient way to move cargo - river barges.

Some quotes from a recent barge market report (http://www.marcon.com/marcon2c.cfm?SectionGroupsID=28&SectionListsID=28&PageID=1728):

On the Mississippi River system a single 200' x 35' x 12' inland river hopper barge (either open or closed) is capable of carrying 1,750 short tons of dry cargo which is the equivalent of 16 railcars or 70 semi-tractor/trailers. It will take 144 semi-tractor/trailers or 46 rail cars to replace a single 300' x 54', 27,500bbl tank barge hauling liquid bulk cargoes. Forty-one U.S. states, 16 state capitals and all states east of the Mississippi River are served by commercially navigable waterways. Railroads are 28.3% less fuel efficient than the U.S. inland waterway freight transportation system, based on revenue ton-miles per gallon - and the railroads are even more efficient than trucks.

Ton-Miles/Gallon
Inland Towing 576
Railroads 413
Truck 155

The 12,000nm of U.S. inland and Intracoastal waterways, like highways, operate as a system, and much of the commerce moves on multiple segments. They serve as connecting arteries, much like neighborhood streets help people reach interstate highways. Over 1,023.5 million short tons of total commodities were on the inland and coastal waters of the U.S. in 2006, down 0.5% from 2005 and most of this was carried by barge. As of 31st December 2006 (with updates thru 30th August 2007) the U.S. fleet consisted of a total of 32,211 dry, deck, tank and other barges, up 159 barges over 2005.

Barges range from under 10' in length for sectional units up to almost 1,000' in length and capable of performing myriads of chores including cargo transport, pipelay, heavy-lift, water-desalinization, power generation and offshore floating production / storage.

In the United States, there were 23,281 freight and 4,370 tank barges documented with the U.S. Coast Guard as of July 2008, in addition to an estimated 10,000+ undocumented barges of various sizes in service.

Flat deck barges carry cargoes on deck such as containers, gravel, construction equipment, multi-million dollar project cargoes and rolling stock. Most of the barges are single deck, although there are house, double and even triple deck ro/ro barges in service. According to the U.S. Maritime Administration, as of 31st December 2006 there were 5,492 deck barges in service in the U.S. with close to half over 25 years of age. In addition there are 154 "other dry cargo" barges that includes barges that may be open or covered, railroad car, pontoon, Ro-Ro, container or convertible - again with close to half of the barges 25 years or older.

Hopper barges are designed to carry dry bulk cargoes such as grains, coal, ore or packaged goods in one or more holds similar to a ship. These holds can be either covered or open without hatch covers. As of 31st December 2006 there were 13,062 dry covered, 8,673 dry open hopper barges in the U.S. fleet according the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. 1,460 of the covered and 1,697 of the open barges were built within the previous five years. 36.4% of the covered and 19.1% open are older than 25 years of age. It is generally calculated that inland river hopper barges have a useful life of 25 to 30 years.

Demand for coastwise transportation has fluctuated over the years, however petroleum and chemical products have always been a significant portion of domestic trade, representing 41.9% of all commodities carried in U.S. waters during 2006. Tank barges have been built from abt. 40' in length to over 600', with capacities from under 18,000 gallons to over 17,500,000 gallons (417,000bbl) of liquid cargo. As of 31st December 2006, 13.2% or 4,250 of the 32,211 barges in U.S. trade were in tank service.

[Targan]

Again, good info Chico. Barges have seen quite a bit of use in my current campaign. Major Po's unit has made use of them and recently during the pre-game of the new PC being introduced into the campaign barges have seen quite a lot of use around Chesapeake Bay and the connecting waterways in early December 2000 (weather permitting).

[O'Borg]

Given circumstances its unlikely you'll be running cars on LPG in the T2Kverse, but if anyone's interested I've cribbed some useful info from one of my car-porn mags ;)

LPG = Liquid Petroleum Gas, a mix of 20-30% butane and 70-80% propane depending on who brewed it. It's usually a by-product of the oil industry rather than a dedicated production line, so it's likely to be in limited stock even before the collapse, though its fairly widely available in France and Australia. Of course if nobody else can use it you might find a big tank of the stuff untouched... :)

Most petrol/gasoline engines can run LPG with minimal conversion, but will do so at a loss of at least 10% power and increase of at least 10% fuel consumption. LPG is actually higher octane than petrol, but is lower density so you need to use more of it. Better performance can be gained by advancing the ignition timing, increasing compression ratio and using a dedicated LPG injection system and mapped ignition rather than an old style venturii attached to the existing inlet manifold.
However increasing CR is pretty much a one way ticket, and on newer engines might not even be possible due to tight modern tolerances.

You'll also be happy to note that LPG is a much cleaner, greener fuel than petrol or diesel, so your modified humvees wont be adding to the environmental woes of post-apocalyptic Northern Europe :D

[Mohoender]

It's usually a by-product of the oil industry rather than a dedicated production line, so it's likely to be in limited stock even before the collapse, though its fairly widely available in France and Australia. Of course if nobody else can use it you might find a big tank of the stuff untouched... :)



I don't know about Australia but for France you can say "was widely available". Actually the number of gas station delivering it have been reduced by about 2/3rd. This is becoming increasingly rare and, nowadays, mostly used by campers on their vans. A few years ago, several car could use it but today these are mostly industrial vehicle.

Another problem with that thing is to fill up the tank. You might well find a full reserve of this thing and not being able to use it if you don't have the stuff to allow for the transfer (it has to remain liquid). A year ago I was behind a guy fillling his tank on his camping van, it took him seven minutes to fill in the tank. Another bad point if you are in a hury.

One last point, older models using this had a bad tendancy to burst in flame (nice and fancy but not very practical) as the tank could backfire. They have fixed that problem of course but on a model which is in not so good a shape because of general neglect, that might be a risk again. A good way to change your players in nice fireworks:D .

[Graebarde]

One last point, older models using this had a bad tendancy to burst in flame (nice and fancy but not very practical) as the tank could backfire. They have fixed that problem of course but on a model which is in not so good a shape because of general neglect, that might be a risk again. A good way to change your players in nice fireworks:D .

Actually backfires on gasoline engines in the carburation days were not all that uncommon, especially on engines that didn't have tune-ups on regular basis. I've had more than a couple carb fires, though not explosions that you seem to be describing. Here in Texas, esp in areas where natural gas is produced, you see ranch vechiles using LPG. As indicated else where, LPG is a dry substance, hence no lubricating factors in it, which will result eventually in more engine wear than with liquids. We're talking cumulative here, not much noticed short term.

Grae

[Targan]

I don't know about Australia but for France you can say "was widely available". Actually the number of gas station delivering it have been reduced by about 2/3rd. This is becoming increasingly rare and, nowadays, mostly used by campers on their vans. A few years ago, several car could use it but today these are mostly industrial vehicle.
Here in Perth, Western Australia large numbers of private vehicles run on LPG as do many buses and most (nearly all) taxis. There are truly enormous gas reserves off the NW coast of Western Australia so we aren't going to be running out of natural gas any time soon.

[General Pain]

Some of the smaller ones on my web site's ship design page (http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/ship_designs.html):

USS Betsy Ross: 5.83 gallons/nm
Atlantik-class Soviet trawler: 8.5 tons diesel/day at 13 knots; 6.0 tons diesel/day at 12 knots
passenger-cruise boat: 3.24 gallons/nm at 10.5 knots
supply/salvage tug #2: 12.5 tons/day at 12 knots, 10.1 tons/day at 10 knots.

and...
NOAA's Rude, 12 tons of fuel goes 800nm at 10 knots!

there are som designs here too www.thebigbookofwar.50megs.com

[Mohoender]

Actually backfires on gasoline engines in the carburation days were not all that uncommon, especially on engines that didn't have tune-ups on regular basis. I've had more than a couple carb fires, though not explosions that you seem to be describing. Here in Texas, esp in areas where natural gas is produced, you see ranch vechiles using LPG. As indicated else where, LPG is a dry substance, hence no lubricating factors in it, which will result eventually in more engine wear than with liquids. We're talking cumulative here, not much noticed short term.

Grae

As I said the burning problem was on older models. Nowadays, you see it only with buses in Paris. I don't think I have heard of one of these things burning since the early 1990's. However, one of the bus burnt something like last year.:)

[Mohoender]

Here in Perth, Western Australia large numbers of private vehicles run on LPG as do many buses and most (nearly all) taxis. There are truly enormous gas reserves off the NW coast of Western Australia so we aren't going to be running out of natural gas any time soon.

Might be the problem with us. We ran out about 15 years ago and prices have kept rising ever since. Nevertheless, I almost never used gas for anything as I had a fun experience with it during winter vacation.

The gas shot down and an ex-girlfriend opened the hot water somewhere in the house (she was not very smart and decided not to care about everyone shouting that no one was to use the hot water). Of course, I was the one igniting the heater and the sight of a 3 meters long flame, with my hand in the middle, was very impressive.:D I also discovered that it was better to have your hand at the beginning of the flame than at the end of it. I didn't feel a thing while another girl (standing further away) was smelling like fried pig.

[Graebarde]

Might be the problem with us. We ran out about 15 years ago and prices have kept rising ever since. Nevertheless, I almost never used gas for anything as I had a fun experience with it during winter vacation.

The gas shot down and an ex-girlfriend opened the hot water somewhere in the house (she was not very smart and decided not to care about everyone shouting that no one was to use the hot water). Of course, I was the one igniting the heater and the sight of a 3 meters long flame, with my hand in the middle, was very impressive.:D I also discovered that it was better to have your hand at the beginning of the flame than at the end of it. I didn't feel a thing while another girl (standing further away) was smelling like fried pig.

Ouch!!!!!! YOU were lucky, but sounds as if the girl wasn't so. Do you heat much with wood where your at?

Grae

[Mohoender]

Ouch!!!!!! YOU were lucky, but sounds as if the girl wasn't so. Do you heat much with wood where your at?

Grae

The girl was lucky too as she got only her hair burnt. She was more angry too.:)

For the heat we use fuel plus wood burnt in an old and very good 150 years old fireplace. The house itself is from 1860 with 60-80cm walls made from a combination of sand (Pisé like) and stone. It is quite heat efficient and the local weather requires heat for only about 4-5 month a year. We usually start the heater in mid-November and cut it around early April.

[Graebarde]

What would alternative fuel talk be without discussion of solid fuels (wood and coal) and steam. First the energy unit I will use is BTU (British thermal unit) which is defined as the amount of energy needed to raise one pound of water one degree F. at 60 degrees F. (from 60 to 61 is the measure). One BTU is ~1055 joule.

First we address the BTU values of some common fuels. It will help us understand why there is a loss of power resulting in increased consumption with fuels such as the alcohols. These figures are in BTU per unit of measure, usually gallons or pounds.

Gasoline 125000 /gal
Fuel Oil 149690 /gal (household heating fuel)
Kerosene 135000 /gal (also known as light distillate)
Diesel fuel 138690 /gal (medium distillate)
Ethanol 84400 /gal
Methanol 62800 /gal
Crude Oil 138095 /gal
Liquid Pet. Gas 95475 /gal
Natural Gas 1008 /Cubic foot
Electric 3413 /kilowatt

Coal per pound
Anthracite 12500 (hard coal found primarily in Pennsylvania)
Bituminous 12000 (most common high value coal used for coke in steel mills)
Sub-bituminous 9000 (what they’re mining in Wyoming)
Lignite 7000 (brown coal)

Common Representative wood, air dried values, green wood is about 75% value of dry wood.
Hickory 5800
Oak 5790
Pine 6390


I addressed steam engines for locomotives in another post, but stationary use of steam for such things as mill operations (sawmill, cotton gins, and electric plants) would be coming back I think. What made me think of the was Chico’s mention of clearing roads in the South, where they were going to just burn it, why not burn it for fuel to help industry and heat the homes?

A rule of thumb for steam operation taken from Lacy 1913 (old but applicable I think) for simple steam (as verses compounds). There is one pound of coal per six gallons of water used. I would base it on bituminous, the most common of coals in use, especially when this was written. So how much water do you use. There are some variables, so I have taken the highest value found for consumption to ‘over estimate. Water consumption is ~30 pounds of water per hour per horsepower. Most common found semi-portable steam engines of the era mentioned and most easily reconstructed are the 30-70 hp.

Using a 75 hp Case steam tractor for an example, this engine would consume ~2250 gallons of water per hour. LOTS of water, and it needs to be GOOD clean water to keep maintenance down if possible. It would require 375 pounds of bituminous coal per hour as well. Not really feasible for a sawmill to haul in coal, so typically slab wood was burned. Let’s assume they are cutting hardwood such as hickory, a very common tree across the entire eastern US. Bituminous coal has ~12000 BTU/pound, where as the hickory has only ~5800 BTU/pound if dry. The wet would have ~4350 BTU/pound. It would take ~1030 pounds of green hickory per hour. Hickory has a density (dry) of ~50 pounds/cubic foot or using our measure ~70 pounds/CF wet. That’s ~15 CF of wood/hour.

A mill of the size this engine can run should be able to put out at least 44,000 board feet of rough-cut lumber a day with a crew (including the woodsmen) of 45. (This is based on the old Engineer Sawmill teams. Use to have the TO&E for that unit. Nice set up too.) This is equivalent to ~140 18” x 20-foot saw logs. Each of these logs will produce ~312 board foot of useable lumber, while leaving ~0.45 cubic feet of slab. Operating ten-hours per day, that’s ~14 logs per hour for a short fall of ~9 CF per hour in wood. But there is plenty of top slash, etc from the operation. Yes it requires transporting, but mules, oxen, or horses can be used. And I would ‘rush’ a rail operation into the mix if at all possible. Even slow moving land trains (each tractor pulling 2-4 trailers depending on the grades). If you can get ahead of the game, there is no speed march needed to get the fuel in as long as it’s ahead.

A steam engine can burn all sorts of things, from wood and coal, to grass, straw, cottonseed hulls, solid waste, and if you have it oil that doesn’t need high refining. Just some thoughts again.

Grae

PS. I will send a pdf copy of Ludy's Steam Engines to anyone interested. It doesn't seem to want to attach here, perhaps too large.

[Graebarde]

The girl was lucky too as she got only her hair burnt. She was more angry too.:)

For the heat we use fuel plus wood burnt in an old and very good 150 years old fireplace. The house itself is from 1860 with 60-80cm walls made from a combination of sand (Pisé like) and stone. It is quite heat efficient and the local weather requires heat for only about 4-5 month a year. We usually start the heater in mid-November and cut it around early April.

She got off lucky, and imagine she was a 'bit upset'.

The old masonry houses with thick walls are great heat sinks. Warm in winter, once the walls get heated up initally, and generally cool in summer. Helps keep the heating bill down for sure.

Grae

[WallShadow]

Just thought of a way to avoid needing grease for a chain-drive bike or motorcycle--get a paraffin candle and grate it into small particles, grind up the graphite from numerous pencils and combine. Melt in a double boiler and brush the mixture into the drive chain. Rotate the chain through its path, and repeat until all crevices have been treated.