Foreign troop use

[James Langham]

A short article with examples of foreign auxiliaries.

As usual please feel free to comment.

[helbent4]

A short article with examples of foreign auxiliaries.

As usual please feel free to comment.

James,

Nice, although some excellent canon references are overlooked.

In Challenge #30: Canada 2000, pg 14 mentions that Soviet and Canadian troops regularly cooperate in industrial and economic endevours, and a battalion of Rocky Mountain Rangers and a Motor Rifle Regiment jointly garrison the city of Kamloops. At that point those Soviets may as well "patch over" to the CF as they clearly are no longer loyal to the Soviet union (like the 62nd MRD) or marauders.

With large numbers of Soviets cut off in BC, and American troops remaining behind for whatever reason after the US forces pulled out, recruiting foreign units wholesale into the CF is largely a given. Keeping the personnel of such units together makes sense from an organisational, linguistic and/or logistical standpoint, at least in the short term. It also it fits squarely into the history and tradition of the Canadian Army. Probably such units would be formed into something like the "Loyal Russian Rifles" or "Loyal American" regiments.

Tony

[raketenjagdpanzer]

First of all, James, these are very well done.

Second of all, would you be averse to me writing one?

I've always had an idea kicking around in my head I'd like to do.

Finally, how adherent to canon must it be to pass muster around here?

[Abbott Shaull]

Interesting. I know if I understood what I have read about the 2nd Infantry Division and the 8th Army in general has several South Korean national attached to the various units to bring them up to strength. So it isn't really a new idea to the US....

[bobcat]

Interesting. I know if I understood what I have read about the 2nd Infantry Division and the 8th Army in general has several South Korean national attached to the various units to bring them up to strength. So it isn't really a new idea to the US....

ah yes the KATUSA's. among some of the brightest troopers i have ever seen. and i swear they are better at shamming than a seasoned specialist. but when you get them to put their effort into something it gets done (often with surprising results).



(someone get me out of here)

[James Langham]

First of all, James, these are very well done.

Second of all, would you be averse to me writing one?

I've always had an idea kicking around in my head I'd like to do.

Finally, how adherent to canon must it be to pass muster around here?

Thanks.

Feel free - this is a group where everyone has always been free and welcome to add ideas.

A good question, the best answer is it doesn't but it's worth noting where it isn't adherant to avoid confusion.

[James Langham]

ah yes the KATUSA's. among some of the brightest troopers i have ever seen. and i swear they are better at shamming than a seasoned specialist. but when you get them to put their effort into something it gets done (often with surprising results).



(someone get me out of here)

The KATUSAs and the Commonwealth KATCOMs were the inspiration for the element on how CENTCOM auxilliery troops were used.

[Legbreaker]

Finally, how adherent to canon must it be to pass muster around here?

It doesn't. Good writing is always appreciated.
If it's not, a word or two indicating it's not is advisable though.

[Rainbow Six]

I like this a lot, particularly the part about the Dutch auxilliaries. I'd also love to see more detail on the 5/325th Kurdish Battalion.

Good job - thanks for sharing it.

[Mohoender]

Nice

About the dutch troops in french employ, I'm not convinced by the pump action shotgun as they have never been in much use among french troops. I would suggest MAT-49 instead or FN/browning auto-5 which were produced by the FN at Herstal (near Liege). For handguns I would equip them with stored Browning M1910 (7.65mm cartridge). For vehicles, you can have Belgium made Land Rover and french Hotchkiss Jeep. Armored would certainly be M3 APC and Panhard AML.

However, with time, these units should be receiving more modern weapons. As far as I know Liege-Herstal survived the war. In addition, the entire french arm industry has survived the war (as far as canon is concerned) and it should be in full production at the time of the "Dead Zone".

With the establishment of the Dead Zone and the annexation of Belgium, France has a strong siderurgy, enough iron and quite some coal. Coal mines in Belgium, France and Saarland have been closed by the mid-1990's (too expensive to exploit) but the twilight war would make them interesting again.

[Canadian Army]

I notice you left out Spain. Spain has the Legión Española, La Legión (Spanish Legión, , formerly Spanish Foreign Legion) and the Fuerzas Regulares IndÃ*genas ("Indigenous Regular Forces"), known simply as the Regulares (Regulars) in it's army. Here is what I came up with for both.

The Spanish Foreign Legion, formerly the Spanish Legion, is an elite unit; designated as General Reserve, of the Spanish Army. Founded as the Tercio de Extranjeros ("Foreigners Regiment"), it was originally intended as a Spanish equivalent of the French Foreign Legion, but in practice it recruited almost exclusively Spaniards and after 1987 it stopped accepting foreigners altogether and changed its name to the Spanish Legion. But, by start of the Twilight War the Spanish Army had again accepted foreigners from select nationalities. Included were: male and female native Spanish speakers, mostly from Central American and South American countries.

"Plus ultra" Brigade de la Légion
The Plus Ultra Brigade, or Brigada Hispanoamericana, is a military contingent of mixed personnel from Spain (800 troops), the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua (about 1,700 troops), which was commissioned to support US troops in the Persian Gulf front during the Twilight War, with the brigade deploying in July 1996. The brigade's name is a reference to Plus Ultra, the national motto of Spain. All the battalions were equipped and transported by the U.S. military, and received some specific training in Canada prior to their arrival in the Gulf.
Units:

Bandera de quartier général (Headquarters Battalion)
VII “Teniente Coronel Valenzuela� Bandera, 3rd “Juan de Austria� Tercio (Light Armoured Reconnaissance Battalion)
V “Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba� Bandera, 2nd “Duque de Alba� Tercio (Infantry Battalion)
II “Carlos I� Bandera, 1st “Gran Capitán� Tercio (Infantry Battalion)
II Bandera de artillerÃ*a de la Légion (Artillery Battalion)
II Bandera logÃ*stico de la Légion (Logistics Battalion)


“Rey Alfonso XIII� Brigade de la Légion
The Rey Alfonso XIII Brigade of the Legion was created in 1995 from operational units of the Spanish Legion, along with support units from the dissolved 23rd Brigade. It receives its name in tribute to the grandfather of H.M. King Juan Carlos I, who with his signature sanctioned the Royal Decree creating the Legion. The Brigade was the largest unit of the Legion, until the creation of the “Plus ultra" Brigade. It is under the command of a General de brigada (Brigade General), in addition to its operational command, is responsible for development, maintenance and respect for traditions of the entire body of the Legion.
Units:

Bandera de quartier général (Headquarters Battalion)
VII “Cristobal Colon� Bandera, 3rd “Juan de Austria� Tercio (Armoured Battalion )
X “Millan Astray� Bandera, 4th “Alejandro Farnesio� Tercio (Infantry Battalion )
IV “Cristo de Lepanto� Bandera, 2nd “Duque de Alba� Tercio (Infantry Battalion)
I “Casa de Borgoña� Bandera, 1st “Gran Capitán� Tercio (Infantry Battalion)
I Bandera de artillerÃ*a de la Légion (Artillery Battalion)
I Bandera logÃ*stico de la Légion (Logistics Battalion)


Bandera de operaciones especiales de la legión, 4th “Alejandro Farnesio� Tercio
The BOEL, as they are known as, is the Spanish Legion "Special" unit. The battalion consists of about 500 men and is deployed as long range reconnaissance companies attached to the 1st Armoured Division “Brunete�, the 2nd Motorized Division “Guzman El Bueno, the 3rd Mechanized Division “Maestrazgo�, the 4th Mountain Division “Urgel�, and the 5th Mountain Division “Navarra�

Regulares IndÃ*genas InfanterÃ*a ligera Brigade
The Regulares IndÃ*genas is the name commonly used to designate the volunteer infantry and cavalry units of the Spanish Army recruited in Spanish Morocco. The Regulares were first raised in 1911 as a "batallón indÃ*gena" of infantry. Their formation came at a time when Spain was expanding into the Moroccan hinterland from the long held coastal enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla. From 1914 to 1922 the Regulares were expanded in numbers to five "Grupos" (Groups) based respectively in Melilla, Tetuan, Ceuta, Alhucemas and Larache. While they remained predominantly infantry, recognition of Moroccan skills as horsemen led to the establishment of cavalry "tabores" (squadrons). With the independence of Morocco in 1956 the majority of the Moroccan personnel of the Regulares, numbering about 10,000, were transferred to the newly raised Royal Moroccan Armed Forces. Spain however retained the historic enclaves of Melilla and Ceuta and as a result the Grupos of Tetuan, Melilla, Ceuta and Alhucemas remained in existence as part of the two garrisons, while the cavalry units were disbanded. As part of a wider reorganisation of the Spanish Army in 1996, the existing the Grupos of Tetuan, Melilla, Ceuta and Alhucemas were amalgamated into the new 52nd Regulares Light Infantry Regiment “Melillaâ€� and the 54th Regulares Light Infantry Regiment “Ceutaâ€�.
Units:

Bandera de quartier général (Headquarters Battalion)
Regimiento de InfanterÃ*a Ligera Regulares de Melilla n.º 52 (52nd Regulars Light Infantry Regiment “Melillaâ€�)
Regimiento de InfanterÃ*a Ligera Regulares de Ceuta n.º 54 (54th Regulars Light Infantry Regiment “Ceutaâ€�)
I CompañÃ*a logÃ*stico de la Regulares IndÃ*genas InfanterÃ*a ligera Brigade (Logistics Company)
I Señala la CompañÃ*a de la Regulares IndÃ*genas InfanterÃ*a ligera Brigade (Signals Company)

[James Langham]

I notice you left out Spain. Spain has the Legión Española, La Legión (Spanish Legión, , formerly Spanish Foreign Legion) and the Fuerzas Regulares IndÃ*genas ("Indigenous Regular Forces"), known simply as the Regulares (Regulars) in it's army. Here is what I came up with for both.

The Spanish Foreign Legion, formerly the Spanish Legion, is an elite unit; designated as General Reserve, of the Spanish Army. Founded as the Tercio de Extranjeros ("Foreigners Regiment"), it was originally intended as a Spanish equivalent of the French Foreign Legion, but in practice it recruited almost exclusively Spaniards and after 1987 it stopped accepting foreigners altogether and changed its name to the Spanish Legion. But, by start of the Twilight War the Spanish Army had again accepted foreigners from select nationalities. Included were: male and female native Spanish speakers, mostly from Central American and South American countries.

"Plus ultra" Brigade de la Légion
The Plus Ultra Brigade, or Brigada Hispanoamericana, is a military contingent of mixed personnel from Spain (800 troops), the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua (about 1,700 troops), which was commissioned to support US troops in the Persian Gulf front during the Twilight War, with the brigade deploying in July 1996. The brigade's name is a reference to Plus Ultra, the national motto of Spain. All the battalions were equipped and transported by the U.S. military, and received some specific training in Canada prior to their arrival in the Gulf.
Units:

Bandera de quartier général (Headquarters Battalion)
VII “Teniente Coronel Valenzuela� Bandera, 3rd “Juan de Austria� Tercio (Light Armoured Reconnaissance Battalion)
V “Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba� Bandera, 2nd “Duque de Alba� Tercio (Infantry Battalion)
II “Carlos I� Bandera, 1st “Gran Capitán� Tercio (Infantry Battalion)
II Bandera de artillerÃ*a de la Légion (Artillery Battalion)
II Bandera logÃ*stico de la Légion (Logistics Battalion)


“Rey Alfonso XIII� Brigade de la Légion
The Rey Alfonso XIII Brigade of the Legion was created in 1995 from operational units of the Spanish Legion, along with support units from the dissolved 23rd Brigade. It receives its name in tribute to the grandfather of H.M. King Juan Carlos I, who with his signature sanctioned the Royal Decree creating the Legion. The Brigade was the largest unit of the Legion, until the creation of the “Plus ultra" Brigade. It is under the command of a General de brigada (Brigade General), in addition to its operational command, is responsible for development, maintenance and respect for traditions of the entire body of the Legion.
Units:

Bandera de quartier général (Headquarters Battalion)
VII “Cristobal Colon� Bandera, 3rd “Juan de Austria� Tercio (Armoured Battalion )
X “Millan Astray� Bandera, 4th “Alejandro Farnesio� Tercio (Infantry Battalion )
IV “Cristo de Lepanto� Bandera, 2nd “Duque de Alba� Tercio (Infantry Battalion)
I “Casa de Borgoña� Bandera, 1st “Gran Capitán� Tercio (Infantry Battalion)
I Bandera de artillerÃ*a de la Légion (Artillery Battalion)
I Bandera logÃ*stico de la Légion (Logistics Battalion)


Bandera de operaciones especiales de la legión, 4th “Alejandro Farnesio� Tercio
The BOEL, as they are known as, is the Spanish Legion "Special" unit. The battalion consists of about 500 men and is deployed as long range reconnaissance companies attached to the 1st Armoured Division “Brunete�, the 2nd Motorized Division “Guzman El Bueno, the 3rd Mechanized Division “Maestrazgo�, the 4th Mountain Division “Urgel�, and the 5th Mountain Division “Navarra�

Regulares IndÃ*genas InfanterÃ*a ligera Brigade
The Regulares IndÃ*genas is the name commonly used to designate the volunteer infantry and cavalry units of the Spanish Army recruited in Spanish Morocco. The Regulares were first raised in 1911 as a "batallón indÃ*gena" of infantry. Their formation came at a time when Spain was expanding into the Moroccan hinterland from the long held coastal enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla. From 1914 to 1922 the Regulares were expanded in numbers to five "Grupos" (Groups) based respectively in Melilla, Tetuan, Ceuta, Alhucemas and Larache. While they remained predominantly infantry, recognition of Moroccan skills as horsemen led to the establishment of cavalry "tabores" (squadrons). With the independence of Morocco in 1956 the majority of the Moroccan personnel of the Regulares, numbering about 10,000, were transferred to the newly raised Royal Moroccan Armed Forces. Spain however retained the historic enclaves of Melilla and Ceuta and as a result the Grupos of Tetuan, Melilla, Ceuta and Alhucemas remained in existence as part of the two garrisons, while the cavalry units were disbanded. As part of a wider reorganisation of the Spanish Army in 1996, the existing the Grupos of Tetuan, Melilla, Ceuta and Alhucemas were amalgamated into the new 52nd Regulares Light Infantry Regiment “Melillaâ€� and the 54th Regulares Light Infantry Regiment “Ceutaâ€�.
Units:

Bandera de quartier général (Headquarters Battalion)
Regimiento de InfanterÃ*a Ligera Regulares de Melilla n.º 52 (52nd Regulars Light Infantry Regiment “Melillaâ€�)
Regimiento de InfanterÃ*a Ligera Regulares de Ceuta n.º 54 (54th Regulars Light Infantry Regiment “Ceutaâ€�)
I CompañÃ*a logÃ*stico de la Regulares IndÃ*genas InfanterÃ*a ligera Brigade (Logistics Company)
I Señala la CompañÃ*a de la Regulares IndÃ*genas InfanterÃ*a ligera Brigade (Signals Company)


Nice detail although I was under the impression the Spanish Foreign Legion did not accept foreigners any more!

[James Langham]

Nice

About the dutch troops in french employ, I'm not convinced by the pump action shotgun as they have never been in much use among french troops. I would suggest MAT-49 instead or FN/browning auto-5 which were produced by the FN at Herstal (near Liege). For handguns I would equip them with stored Browning M1910 (7.65mm cartridge). For vehicles, you can have Belgium made Land Rover and french Hotchkiss Jeep. Armored would certainly be M3 APC and Panhard AML.

However, with time, these units should be receiving more modern weapons. As far as I know Liege-Herstal survived the war. In addition, the entire french arm industry has survived the war (as far as canon is concerned) and it should be in full production at the time of the "Dead Zone".

With the establishment of the Dead Zone and the annexation of Belgium, France has a strong siderurgy, enough iron and quite some coal. Coal mines in Belgium, France and Saarland have been closed by the mid-1990's (too expensive to exploit) but the twilight war would make them interesting again.

Nice thoughts. I had gone with the pump-action as I wanted to emphasize the paramilitary nature. I didn't envision them with vehicles as they are intended as local forces (indeed their main strength is local knowledge). I may well add MAT49s and M1910s to the list (with a note that they fold down well for the resistance if captured - even with the magazine attached).

[James Langham]

I like this a lot, particularly the part about the Dutch auxilliaries. I'd also love to see more detail on the 5/325th Kurdish Battalion.

Good job - thanks for sharing it.

Thanks - I will see what I can do with a full write up of Pegasus II and the Kurds when I have time.

[Canadian Army]

Nice detail although I was under the impression the Spanish Foreign Legion did not accept foreigners any more!

Through the course of the Legion's history Spaniards (including natives of the colony of Spanish Guinea) have made up the majority of its members, with foreigners accounting for 25 percent or less. After 1987 it stopped accepting foreigners altogether and changed its name to the Spanish Legion. But, in the 2000s, after the abandonment of conscription, the Spanish Army again accepted foreigners from select nationalities, mostly from Central American and South American states.

[Mohoender]

I didn't envision them with vehicles as they are intended as local forces (indeed their main strength is local knowledge).

I thought so that's why my first ideas were that of hotchkiss jeep. My thinking comes from the Vichy Milice which was using citroen traction and trucks for transport.

The most striking vehicles that you could find among such units in T2K would certainly be the hotchkiss jeep, the Mehari, the 2CV, the peugeot 504, the renault "Tube" and probably a fair number of GMC (ww2 vintage).

[Canadian Army]

Here are some examples of how the British and French might organize foreign troops:

British

Brigade of Gurkhas

1st Battalion, 2nd King Edward VII's Own Gurkha Rifles (The Sirmoor Rifles)
1st Battalion, 6th Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles
1st Battalion, 7th Duke of Edinburgh's Own Gurkha Rifles
1st Battalion, 10th Princess Mary's Own Gurkha Rifles
101st (Gurkha) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
102nd (Gurkha) Air Defense Regiment, Royal Artillery
50th Engineer Regiment, Queen's Gurkha Engineers
17th Signals Regiment, Queen's Gurkha Signals
28 (Gurkha) Transport Squadron, 10 Transport Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps
94 (Gurkha) Stores Squadron, 9 Supply Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps
17 (Gurkha) Provost Company, 3rd Regiment Royal Military Police
No. 1 Squadron, Royal Hong Kong Auxiliary Air Force (12x S-70A Black Hawk)

50th (Caribbean) Infantry Brigade
1st Battalion, Caribbean Regiment
2nd Battalion, Caribbean Regiment
3rd Battalion, Caribbean Regiment
1st Battalion, The Bermuda Regiment (TA)
Bermuda Militia Artillery, Royal Artillery
600 Independent (Bermuda Volunteer Engineers) Field Squadron, Royal Engineers
600 (Caribbean) Transport Regiment, Royal Corps of Transport

25th (African) Infantry Brigade
1st (Central Africa) Battalion, King's African Rifles
2nd (Central Africa) Battalion, King's African Rifles
3rd (East Africa) Battalion, King's African Rifles
4th (West Africa) Battalion, King's African Rifles
302nd (East African) Regiment, Royal Artillery
9 Independent (East African) Field Squadron, Royal Engineers
200 (Central Africa) Transport Regiment, Royal Corps of Transport

39th (Irish) Infantry Brigade [Mechanized]
B (North Irish Horse) Squadron, Queen's Own Yeomanry
The Queen's Royal Irish Hussars
1st Battalion, The Royal Irish Rangers (27th (Inniskilling) 83rd and 87th)
2nd Battalion, The Royal Irish Rangers (27th (Inniskilling) 83rd and 87th)
5th Battalion, The Royal Irish Rangers (TA)
102 (Irish) Regiment, Royal Artillery (Volunteers)
591 Independent Field Squadron, Royal Engineers
152 (Ulster) Transport Regiment (Volunteers), Royal Corps of Transport

Rapid Reaction Force, Hong Kong Field Force
Headquarters
Independent Gurkha Parachute Company, Parachute Regiment
Hong Kong Chinese Regiment
The Royal Hong Kong Regiment (The Volunteers)
No. 1 Flight, Royal Hong Kong Auxiliary Air Force
No. 2 Flight, Royal Hong Kong Auxiliary Air Force

French

6e Division Legere Blindee (6th Light Armoured Division)
6e Régiment de Commandement et de Soutien (6th Command and Support Regiment)
1er Régiment de Spahis Marocains (1st Regiment of Moroccan Spahis)
1er Régiment Étrangère de Cavalerie (1st Foreign Cavalry Regiment)
2eme Régiment Étrangère d'Infanterie (2nd Foreign Infantry Regiment)
1er Régiment Étrangère d'Infanterie (1st Foreign Infantry Regiment)
1e Régiment Étranger d’Artillerie (1st Foreign Artillery Regiment)
6e Régiment Étrangère du Génie (6th Foreign Engineer Regiment)

13e Division Legere Blindee (13th Light Armoured Division)
13e Régiment de Commandement et de Soutien (13th Command and Support Regiment)
1er Regiment de Chasseurs d'Afrique (1st African "Hunter" Regiment)
2e Régiment Étrangère de Cavalerie (2nd Foreign Cavalry Regiment)
4e Régiment Étrangère d'Infanterie (4th Foreign Infantry Regiment)
11e Régiment Étrangère d'Infanterie (11th Foreign Infantry Regiment)
2e Régiment Étranger d’Artillerie (1st Foreign Artillery Regiment)
2e Régiment Étrangère de Génie (2nd Foreign Engineer Regiment)

13e Demi-Brigade de Légion Étrangère (13th Demi-Brigade of the Foreign Legion) — Djibouti
Compagnie de Commandement et de Soutien (Command and Support Company)
Compagnie de Maintenance (Maintenance Company)
Escadron de Reconnaissance (Reconnaissance Squadron)
Compagnie d'Infanterie (Infantry Company)
Compagnie de Génie (Engineer Company)

3e Régiment Étranger d'infanterie (3rd Foreign Infantry Regiment) — Cayenne, French Guyana

5e Régiment Étranger d'infanterie (5th Foreign Infantry Regiment) — Papeete, French Polynesia

2eme Régiment Étranger de Parachutistes (2nd Foreign Parachute Regiment) — 11th Division Parachutiste

12e Régiment Étrangère d'Infanterie (12th Foreign Infantry Regiment) — Mayotte

Post Twilight French Foreign Units
21e Régiment de marche de volontaires étrangers (21st Marching Regiment of Foreign Volunteers)
22e Régiment de marche de volontaires étrangers (22nd Marching Regiment of the Foreign Volunteers)
23e Régiment de marche de volontaires étrangers (23rd Marching Regiment of Foreign Volunteers)

[Rainbow Six]

Canadian Army's post reminded me of the Hong Kong Military Service Corps, which recruited ethnic Chinese personnel in Hong Kong, who then served alongside their British counterparts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Military_Service_Corps

[Canadian Army]

Canadian Army's post reminded me of the Hong Kong Military Service Corps, which recruited ethnic Chinese personnel in Hong Kong, who then served alongside their British counterparts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Military_Service_Corps

Actually I based the Hong Kong Chinese Regiment on the actual regiment from WWII. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Chinese_Regiment

[James Langham]

Canadian Army's post reminded me of the Hong Kong Military Service Corps, which recruited ethnic Chinese personnel in Hong Kong, who then served alongside their British counterparts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Military_Service_Corps

The Royal Hong Kong Regiment - had 1Bn - in my world formed a second and started to form a third. They are actually not part of the British Army but belong to the colony. In my background 1RHKR is attached to 6 Div, 2RHKR was internal security and the training unit.

[Rainbow Six]

I was under the impression that the HKMSC and the Royal Hong Kong Regiment were two separate entities, with the RHKR indeed part of the Hong Kong Government whilst the HKMSC was a part of the Army, and (according to wiki) served mainly to augment the regulars in the support units, although it did have one Infantry Company, which I would expand to at least one Bn in and place under command of 6 Dvn in canon T2K. Increasing the size of the RHKR to 2 Bns also makes sense to me.

[James Langham]

I was under the impression that the HKMSC and the Royal Hong Kong Regiment were two separate entities, with the RHKR indeed part of the Hong Kong Government whilst the HKMSC was a part of the Army, and (according to wiki) served mainly to augment the regulars in the support units, although it did have one Infantry Company, which I would expand to at least one Bn in and place under command of 6 Dvn in canon T2K. Increasing the size of the RHKR to 2 Bns also makes sense to me.

oops my mistake. I like your suggestions and will copy it for my background if you don't mind.

[Rainbow Six]

oops my mistake. I like your suggestions and will copy it for my background if you don't mind.

Be my guest - I don't mind at all...;)

Attached is something I put together a while ago on the 6th Division which some may find of interest...other than the units mentioned and Brigade numbers, it is, I believe, more or less in line with canon. There are a few Bns unaccounted for in canon which could be used instead.

Comments welcome...

(Note for those familiar with my UK work, this piece is not part of that...my own take on Hong Kong is a little different)

Cheers

[Canadian Army]

Just a idea, until the 1960s the British maintained the 17 Gurkha Division in Hong Kong.

[James Langham]

New version, I've limited it to the bits I have fully fleshed out - the ideas above haven't been forgotten.

[Webstral]

Finally, how adherent to canon must it be to pass muster around here?

As a writer who frequently goes off-reservation, I'll say that the best way to get a good reception is to make sure your work reflects thought. If you are adding to the established body of material, make sure your work fits. If you are writing something contrary to the established body of material, I strongly advise being certain that your work makes sense if you want a good reception. Thunder Empire contravenes the established body of material, if one uses the Mexican Army Order of Battle as a guide. Therefore, I have been obliged to go into some detail about how a whole host of challenges have been met such that a training brigade and a collection of desert municipalities survive into 2001 when so very many other American formations and municipalities with so much more going for them have not survived. In Twilight: 2000, weapons, fuel, food, etc. all come from someplace. Account for them and you should be fine.

[James Langham]

Just a idea, until the 1960s the British maintained the 17 Gurkha Division in Hong Kong.

If it wasn't called the 6th Div in cannon I would go with that.

[Raellus]

What about Warsaw Pact exiles/defectors? Would we see NATO-aligned (and commanded) "independent" battalions/regiments/brigades of Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, etc?

In my Ref/Player experience, WTO defectors always appear piecemeal (i.e. the former Polish or Soviet army soldier that appears in many PC parties). The only exception I can recall is former DDR troops in the Unified Bundeswehr, but that's not quite what we're discussing.

The more I think about it, the more "independent" foreign troop formations in NATO armies make sense for the milieu.

-

[chico20854]

What about Warsaw Pact exiles/defectors? Would we see NATO-aligned (and commanded) "independent" battalions/regiments/brigades of Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, etc?

In my Ref/Player experience, WTO defectors always appear piecemeal (i.e. the former Polish or Soviet army soldier that appears in many PC parties). The only exception I can recall is former DDR troops in the Unified Bundeswehr, but that's not quite what we're discussing.

The more I think about it, the more "independent" foreign troop formations in NATO armies make sense for the milieu.

-

I imagine that the Polish Free Congress would have two kinds of units under it's control: 1) units composed of exiles (or 2nd generation exiles that were fluent in Polish) that are trained/equipped by "parent" NATO armies and 2) entire Polish Army (and Border Guard) units that switched sides. Those units would largely maintain their organization/chain of command/equipment, vs the first type which would essentially be ethnic/national formations within their "parent" army.

The advantage of integrating individual deserters/exiles into a NATO unit is that there is little chance of the whole mass going back over and that the integration burden is relatively light, IF the deserter is able to communicate with the rest of his new unit. If he can't, then he's pretty useless...

[Raellus]

I imagine that the Polish Free Congress would have two kinds of units under it's control: 1) units composed of exiles (or 2nd generation exiles that were fluent in Polish) that are trained/equipped by "parent" NATO armies and 2) entire Polish Army (and Border Guard) units that switched sides. Those units would largely maintain their organization/chain of command/equipment, vs the first type which would essentially be ethnic/national formations within their "parent" army.

I'd always imagined that the PFC was more of a partisan organization than a proper army- to use a WW2 comparison, more along the lines of Warsaw's Home Army than the Polish Armed Forces in the West. I could be wrong about that, though. AFAIK, canon isn't very clear on the subject. I'd like to know more about the relationship between the PFC and NATO, especially regarding CnC and logistics.

The advantage of integrating individual deserters/exiles into a NATO unit is that there is little chance of the whole mass going back over and that the integration burden is relatively light, IF the deserter is able to communicate with the rest of his new unit. If he can't, then he's pretty useless...

True, but I think you'd lose something too- the sense of shared purpose and any sort of comradery esprit de corps that would probably come from serving alongside one's countrymen. And the risk of double-defection, I imagine, would be pretty low. Historically, the Soviets have been very hard on any perceived/suspected disloyalty. During WW2, just getting captured and becoming a POW of the Germans was usually enough to get a "liberated" or escaped Red Army soldier sent straight to the Gulags (or a mass grave).

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[Rainbow Six]

By and large I tend to think that 2nd / 3rd Generation Exiles would be likely to end up in a regular formation of their own national Army, with a possible exception for those with particular skills e.g. someone who speaks fluent Polish who might be scooped up by an Intelligence unit as an interpreter etc. There’s maybe an argument for particularly skillful individuals making up an Independent SAS Squadron or Para Company but I really don’t see the British Army (for example) setting up the 1st (Polish) Independent Rifle Battalion from scratch and using 2nd Generation Poles (who are actually British) to man it if already formed units are under manned.

I think the ‘organised’ formations on a par with the Free Polish / French etc forces from World War 2 would be more likely to be formed from entire units defecting en masse.

This maybe belongs in Louie’s thread but I also don’t follow the logic (I’ve seen more than one example of it in T2K) that the UK would recruit troops from places like Africa and the Caribbean as mentioned upthread and field them in Brigades. Yes, I know that in order to address manning shortfalls the British Army recruits from Commonwealth nations and the Republic of Ireland but again they’re integrated into regular British units in small groups But forming entire Brigades from former British Colonies is a non starter as far as I’m concerned. By that logic we may as well field an American Brigade (the Irish are a slightly different case as we do have (Northern) Irish units in the British Army but Northern Ireland is part of the UK).