Vehicles and EMPs?

[Mohoender]

Ok, while jocking about ethanol, I realized that I forgot to ask something. I have little knowledge in mechanics and don't know if you can take out the electronic of a vehicle and make it work again.

I assume that EMP would have had devastating effects on most vehicles (as per cannon). Is there a way to make them start again without electronics and does any of you know about this? I assume that this is the case for, lets say, the HMMWV.

Side question, what about fly by wire aircrafts?

[jester]

A old fashioned vehicle that uses a mechanical fuel pump and a carbereuator sure.

For computer controlled fuel injected models with electrical fuel pumps, survos and relays more problematic.

As for fly by wire, forget it! They would have to have been hardened from construction, or maybe grounded or put in a shelter to protect them.

Could a civilian aircraft like a Cesna I think so, at least an older model, just forget about radios or any fancy avionics.

Oh, and electric starters as the solenoid would probably be fried. So, I am thinking you would have to pop start the vehicles, which means a standard or manual transmission instead of an automatic.

[chico20854]

I would be quite suprised if military vehicles, especially tactical aircraft, were not EMP hardened. For example, a fly-by-wire F-16, would reasonably be expected to be EMP hardened, given its tactical nuclear delivery role. The opposite, that it wouldn't be EMP-hardened, makes no sense.

[Marc]

It seems to me that the effect of EMP in the Twilight world is somehow excessive in comparison with the dimension of the nuclear exchange described in the rulebook. I think that the damage described in the book is quite optimistic compared with the possible reality, with people still living near impact points (like in Warsaw), with rural communities able to produce food, etc... But the EMP's seems to have an excessive efficiency to fry everything able to process a single bit.

[Grimace]

From what I know from my buddies in the Marines, the Marine fighter jocks had to practice "dead stick" runs in case they lost their avionics and electric assisted controls. Now, since they were practicing for such instances, I think the military craft might be shielded a bit, but I don't think it's quite the "all impressive prevents any problems" sort of shielding. I think it might help on the outer fringes of the EMP burst or something, but anything caught well within the EMP burst is probably going to have some serious problems working.

For civilian stuff, you'd definitely have to be dealing with older vehicles and aircraft. Anything newer...new cars with their little "brain boxes" and chips, and new aircraft (as was mentioned with electric fuel injection) would have some serious problems. Unless a crafty mechanic can figure out how to bypass that stuff, the vehicles would be pretty much useless. Modern cars won't let themselves be started without their chips working.

[Mohoender]

It seems to me that the effect of EMP in the Twilight world is somehow excessive in comparison with the dimension of the nuclear exchange described in the rulebook. I think that the damage described in the book is quite optimistic compared with the possible reality, with people still living near impact points (like in Warsaw), with rural communities able to produce food, etc... But the EMP's seems to have an excessive efficiency to fry everything able to process a single bit.

Yes and no I think. We brought up an issue back in RPG host where we had been speaking of Chernobyl nowadays. It appears that despite contamination the area is far from being a barren desert (Human alone is away but why risking your life when there is no need for it). here are some articles about it.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0426_060426_chernobyl.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4923342.stm
http://news.mongabay.com/2005/0810-Chernobyl.html

Of course, if you read it carefully things are far from ideal and the point is contested. I'm convinced that some are way too positive but i wouldn't be surprised if other were way too negative. I put you a counter article here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6946210.stm

I would expect these to remain an issue for some times and I bet that the truth lies somewhere in a middleground. Nevertheless, in the case of T2K where people are desperate, with little mean to leave, having people living quite near a burst area might not be that silly. That has been a large issue about T2K but, in fact, their view might not be that bad (in my opinion).

about EMPs nobody really knows I think and, in term of game play, their point is a good one. For my part, setting the game at a slightly later period, I have less powerful nuclear burst as MIRV are about 550kt in average (except for a handfull of 20Mt burst over the US by SS-18 Satan) and everything wasn't fried (90% was) as many elements were out of line when the attack occurs. For exemple, if you take the case of France, a number of nuclear power plants are off line (as far as I know) and held in reserve, in case of emergency. The months long exchange and most people being ignorant about EMPs would have strong effects, nevertheless.

For my part, I wouldn't start my car for some times and the second vehicle of the familly is old enough so it has no electronics (from a rough estimation, at least 20% of the vehicles in the village would still be running, by the way. Many people have older ones in storage). I would lose 80% of my computers but one will remain in working order (actually 2 as they are older models in storage) and we will retain a working fridge (older model also). Getting electricity will be more of a problem but water will be fine as we have a well in our cave:) . Hopefully my cousin is now living 100 miles away and the guy is a specialist in individual electric power plant with a 20 years experience in African and third world countries. Moreover, as I have plenty of wind and a full load of electricians, engineers (including one who was making nuclear power plant)... readily available in the familly, I would plan for a wind power plant. Another advantage of my area is that they are plenty of horses around woods everywhere, lots of water and good farm lands.:D Marauders and general unrest will be much more of a problem.:( The only weapons that I have are matchets, swords and crossbow but expect my mother to hide some submachinegun somewhere (+ at least 2 or 3 handguns with full load of ammunitions). As I live in a countryside, you can also bet that several people still hold some stocks from WWII (I have heard of huge ones but these remain rumors to these days). Strangely, when the government issued a law (10 years ago) asking people to bring what firearms they had, only 12 gauge hunting rifle showed up.:p Where are the Mausers, Sten, MP-40 and MG-42 all gone?

[Marc]

Bona nit Mohoender!

Ok! You have convinced me. I will cross the Pirinees at the first sign of EMP. ;)
I have been reading a little about the EMP's since your post and I think you have reason. The Twilight devastating EMP effect over all the electronic parts seems completely justified. Rumors says that Russians have an specific unit dedicated to it. Ssssssshhhhtttt....:cool: But I see a weak point in the last half of your post. The EMP generates an inductive current in all electrical and electronic circuits. This current induced in the conductor materials implies fatal consequences for the electronic parts, which are specifically designed to work with very low voltages and currents. But this current is induced no matter if the component is online or offline. Basically, the conductors would be working as an antenna, their electrons in phase with the wave of the electronic pulse, which is, basically, an electromagnetic wave of great power and short duration. So, your old computers in storage will be fried anyway, I think.
And it seems that shielding a component against an EMP is not an easy matter. You must close the the component in a metallic enclosure with an outstanding ground wire (not sure about this concept in English). Because the generated wave can cause a differential of voltage of thousands of volts per meter, generating currents accordingly.
And don't lost it! A lone, high altitude, nuclear detonation of 1 Megaton, 500Km over the center of USA, Europe or Russia could destroy great part of the electronics... So, welcome to the 19th century (with people of the 21th)...

Ah! The links seems interesting. I will take them a look today.

Arreveure!

[jester]

I have heard you can build a cage as EMP sheilding and have it grounded. So it doesn't have to be a solider metal box. I am wondering if one could do so with say, chainlink fencing on the inside of say, your garage or an out building, and then have that grounded. And have foam matting on the floor of the structure.

Or, maybe a metal building like the metal storage sheds or even a quanset hut, again with a ruberized floor in addition to the building being grounded and of course not having any of your eletrical components you want to save touching or even close to the walls or ceiling.

Just something I wondered about, as when it comes to electronics if it doesn't work past the "on" button then I am lost ;)

[Marc]

Mmmm... I suppose that some of this methods may be effective. Basically you must create a Faraday box (not sure if this is the correct English term) and be sure that all the potential is discharged on ground... I know that a conventional Faraday box can be created with a web of conductors instead of solid metallic walls. But with an EMP... who knows?!
And this make me think that the use of a high altitude nuclear explosion to produce an EMP must be in the plans of the US and Russia since the its discovering... Ok, I suppose it was evident:confused: , but until I always have viewed the EMP's as a side effect. Nor as a tactic.

[jester]

Well, I know alot of military equipment was what was called "hardened" which means it was in theory built to withstand the EMP. As for the use of EMP as a tactic, I am sure it was figured into the use of such weapons and probably had something to do with determining the size of the nuclear weapon.

[Mohoender]

Bona nit Mohoender!

I see a weak point in the last half of your post. The EMP generates an inductive current in all electrical and electronic circuits. This current induced in the conductor materials implies fatal consequences for the electronic parts, which are specifically designed to work with very low voltages and currents. But this current is induced no matter if the component is online or offline. Basically, the conductors would be working as an antenna, their electrons in phase with the wave of the electronic pulse, which is, basically, an electromagnetic wave of great power and short duration. So, your old computers in storage will be fried anyway, I think.

Arreveure!

Agree with your point and that will certainly be the case for my newest car. Might not be the case with the computers (especially with the labtop) as battery is dead and out. Still it is possible but I don't know enough to be entirely sure. In T2K the worst I can imagine is that EMP will be on for sometime as it is not a one day exchange, what wasn't fried one day might be the next day.

[Matt Wiser]

Regarding military vehicles and EMP: there's an EMP simulator at Kirtland AFB in New Mexico that I remember seeing pictures of planes parked under it for tests, to see how well shielded they were from EMP. Every U.S. military plane (and presumably those from NATO allies) was tested there in the 1980s, I do believe. They also tested Army and Marine equipment, and the Navy has (or had) a barge with a similar piece of equipment for testing ships' electronics as part of their acceptance trials. Any military vehicle (air, land, or sea) in the 1970s and '80s had to be designed for a nuclear environment, and EMP testing was part of the test phase. Presumably that test facility is still going today.

[kato13]

The EMP testing facility is the largest wood structure in the world constructed totally without metal fasteners.

http://cryptome.quintessenz.at/mirror/6odd-trestle.jpg

Map of the testing facility.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=35.025281+N,+106.562284+W&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=35.030875,-106.558456&spn=0.007257,0.021973&z=16&iwloc=addr

[Targan]

Mmmm... I suppose that some of this methods may be effective. Basically you must create a Faraday box (not sure if this is the correct English term) and be sure that all the potential is discharged on ground...
Faraday cage in English, but what you say about EMP is correct.

[Dogger]

If I remember the .v1 history correctly I don’t think there was ever a mention of either side using high altitude nuclear airburst’s for large scale EMP effects.

If that is indeed the case, then the only EMP effects should be from the nukes that were airburst directly over there targets (a few thousand feet high.) this would cause the EMP effects to be quite localized I believe.

Which could mean large rural areas with functioning electronics – still worthless of course without power or fuel.

I know a guy who flew in B-52’s in the ‘80’s and ‘90’s, and he did tell me once on this subject that most NATO aircraft were EMP hardened to some degree…but he said that you would be surprised to find that very few base facilities (including spare parts rooms/warehouse’s) had any EMP shielding at all. Some of the comm. was protected, but the power grid was not…or even vital electronics in the airbase towers and CIC’s.

[kato13]

I have always thought that the game's EMP effects were overstated for a couple of reasons.

EMP is line of site. Barriers do block it. Mountains, Packed earth, Concrete and Steel building materials will all reduce its effects.

There were months to prepare. Between the first launches in Poland and the Thanksgiving attack people would have had been instructed on how to shield equipment. Many would ignore the instructions but many others would not.

I have also seen evidence supporting this quote


Another "myth" that seems to have grown up with information on EMP is that nearly all cars and trucks would be "knocked out" by EMP. This seems logical, but is one of those cases where "real world" experiments contradict theoretical answers and I'm afraid this is the case with cars and EMP. According to sources working at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, cars have proven to be resistant to EMP in actual tests using nuclear weapons as well as during more recent tests (with newer cars) with the US Military's EMP simulators.

One reason for the ability of a car to resist EMP lies in the fact that its metal body is "insulated" by its rubber tires from the ground. This creates a Faraday cage of sorts. (Drawing on the analogy of EMP being similar to lightning, it is interesting to note that cases of lightning striking and damaging cars is almost non-existent; this apparently carries over to EMP effects on vehicles as well.)

http://www.aussurvivalist.com/nuclear/empprotection.htm

Overall like most things in my T2k world I say electronics have around a 10% chance of surviving.

[Marc]

Bona nit!!

I think that you have reason about the fact that the normal (low altitude) nuclear explosions described in Twilight will produce an EMP which will affect only a small area.
About the shielding of vehicles, I suppose that is much easier due to the simple reason that any vehicle with a metallic enclosure (or fuselage) will work (with variable success) as a simple Faraday cage. That's the explanation that justifies that planes and cars are not affected by lightnings.

[Mohoender]

I think you are all right and EMPs wouldn't be that bad. What dogger said about low altitude burst is right. O f course there were enough of them to do substantial damages. Thanks also about what you said on bases; that is interesting.

What Marc said about cars being faraday cages is perfectly right. Thanks for reminding me that one. Tires isolate it from the ground. that's not the case with tracked vehicles and as a result, VAB, LAV and BTR might survive better than tanks and IFVs

Indeed the game doesn't describe any high altitude burst, I would expect it to be the case. EMPs have been knowns since the 1920's and their effects have been experienced since 1950's.

Kato, you might be right about early warning but I would expect most people not to have listen to them. I would expect most to react on someting like: "It will not happen, they are exagerating, not us..." Therefore, your 10% base seems fair to me.

[Marc]

Indeed the game doesn't describe any high altitude burst, I would expect it to be the case. EMPs have been knowns since the 1920's and their effects have been experienced since 1950's.

I have the same impression after a little reading about EMP's. Although the enemy could be ready (but I really doubt about it), it only costs you one single nuke. And the benefits of any delay in the response action could probe invaluable.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

I think EMP is largely overrated, it can't destroy everything. It also depends if you have the power cords and antenna hooked up, if you don't, then you will have a chance that the equipment could be OK. I think it would be possible that if you had a radio hooked up and a longwire antenna, it could get fried where the radio on the shelf in your basement or in "Bob's Electronic Shop" stand a good chance of being OK. Still it is a good idea to provide some shielding for just in case.

Chuck M.

[kato13]

Thought about replying to the other thread about EMP but my views are already stated in this thread which might be a good read for newer users. So I am bumping.

[Graebarde]

Regarding military vehicles and EMP: there's an EMP simulator at Kirtland AFB in New Mexico that I remember seeing pictures of planes parked under it for tests, to see how well shielded they were from EMP. Every U.S. military plane (and presumably those from NATO allies) was tested there in the 1980s, I do believe. They also tested Army and Marine equipment, and the Navy has (or had) a barge with a similar piece of equipment for testing ships' electronics as part of their acceptance trials. Any military vehicle (air, land, or sea) in the 1970s and '80s had to be designed for a nuclear environment, and EMP testing was part of the test phase. Presumably that test facility is still going today.

IIRC History has a show where they covered this.

[AcesandEights]

Regarding military vehicles and EMP: there's an EMP simulator at Kirtland AFB in New Mexico ...

I don't know. This is one of those situations where I feel the effects of an EMP are often overstated in popular media (T2K included) as a means of popular wish fulfillment, while the degree to which the military/industrial assets are secured is another sort of fiction.

I keep reading vague information about EMP shielding and military testing but it's often hedged by the caveat that these are just 'test conditions' etc. I'm sure there's some pretty good hard information out there, and lot's I'd probably not have access to (as a civilian), but I often wonder to what degree our electronic security claims are a safety blanket, even for our troops.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Somebody school me on this. If you remove the battery from your vehicle does this make the EMP effect have a lesser chance of damaging the critical componets such as stators, solenoid, ECUs, ect.?

[pmulcahy11b]

Somebody school me on this. If you remove the battery from your vehicle does this make the EMP effect have a lesser chance of damaging the critical componets such as stators, solenoid, ECUs, ect.?

Don't really know if it would help on a civilian vehicle, but SOP for a possible nuclear attack warning is to remove the antennas of the radios, remove the radios from their mounts, remove anything else electronic from their mounts, and un-ass the area.

[pmulcahy11b]

The EMP testing facility is the largest wood structure in the world constructed totally without metal fasteners.

I was re-watching "Dogfights of the Future" (the Military Channel show) on my DVR, and they had an interesting device projected for a strike mission in 2024. Some of the F-35 Lightnings had devices that could burn out the electronics of enemy computers, radios, and radars at a distance -- sort of a directed EMP pulse generator. The show said they were now under development, but most information was classified about them.

[Spoe]

Somebody school me on this. If you remove the battery from your vehicle does this make the EMP effect have a lesser chance of damaging the critical componets such as stators, solenoid, ECUs, ect.?

Removing the battery will have little, if any effect, because the EMP induces current directly in the metal and doesn't depend on any live current.

The main reason integrated circuits are vulnerable, even if not plugged in or attached to an antenna is it doesn't take much voltage to fry a chip, like a CPU designed for core voltages around 1V. Given that, for the usual hypothetical attack 400 km above N. Dakota, the electric field at ground level will be in the hundreds of volts per meter across the continental US and peaking in tens of kilovolts per meter even a relatively inefficient coupling with the leads on your average circuit board will likely damage some components.

[Mohoender]

I was re-watching "Dogfights of the Future" (the Military Channel show) on my DVR, and they had an interesting device projected for a strike mission in 2024. Some of the F-35 Lightnings had devices that could burn out the electronics of enemy computers, radios, and radars at a distance -- sort of a directed EMP pulse generator. The show said they were now under development, but most information was classified about them.

A German drama, even has a portable such device that was supposidly developped conjointly by Germany and the US. I don't know if there is any truth to this but that was a fun idea.

By the way, from everything I'm reading, the answer to my first question seem to be: do as you please and try your best, nobody really knows.:D

Thanks everyone. I'll lower theier effect as I wish to have a few Leclerc, Black Eagle, Abrams M1A2... around.:)

[Graebarde]

A suggestion to gaming that you all probably have already thought of, considered or used is to set a "did it survive?" level. Say civilian vehicles that fall into the electronic age have 2% chance of survivng the EMP for what ever reason, then roll your percentage, for military it might be 95%. Heck I don't think anythingis 100% vunerable or protected. There's just too many variables and true unknowns.

Grae

[Mohoender]

A suggestion to gaming that you all probably have already thought of, considered or used is to set a "did it survive?" level. Say civilian vehicles that fall into the electronic age have 2% chance of survivng the EMP for what ever reason, then roll your percentage, for military it might be 95%. Heck I don't think anythingis 100% vunerable or protected. There's just too many variables and true unknowns.

Grae

I like your suggestion. However, I apply a no-chance to survive to the most recent civilian vehicles, including hybrids. From what I know of them, there is always minimal electronic working one way or another. For many of them, leave them on parking lot with the battery plugged in, don't touch them for three or four weeks, and you'll have a good chance to buy a new battery when trying to take it back. Anyway, in T2K, nobody will have the means to fix them. About the 100% you are right and I think that cannon even says that everything, even shielded stuffs were damaged one way or another.

Might be interesting with fly-by-wire aircrafts. Flying an F-117 damaged by EMP might be a challenging game in itself (providing it still can fly). The world may be gone with a all bunch of aircrafts from F-16 to Su-27 and then to F-22 (actually, you might still have F-16 are there are way enough around to fix a small number of them).

Ok! I know, these are shielded but who knows really. I can easily imagine, even today, the USAF doing its best to refit whatever A-7 and F-4 they still have around (as I know US has 3 to 6 J-35F Draken in flying order, fun!!). Look at the Vermont international airport (near Burlington, east of Winoosky and south of St.Michael's College) on Google map, there is a nice F-4 Phantom II somewhere on the field and may be a few T-33: already enough to make a fine airforce in T2K (from memory they might be in flying order or at least well cared off).

Marines corps might be better off so as I don't think the Harrier is entirely fly-by-wire. For the Russians, they might still have Mig-29s reinforced by Mig-23s (there are 500 reported to be in storage). Wish to be Chinese or Albanian with their old and nice rust buckets: Mig like stuffs? Jee, Albania will have the most powerful airforce in the Balkan, with limited domestic oil to fuel them.

Also from what I recall, most helicopters have a better chance to survive and the Texans, with their WW2 aircrafts are definitely the smart ones.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

I think most civilian vehicles would survive, the car body itself can act as a Faraday shield, unless you have a Corvette or something. I work in auto parts and most parts are designed to work in a less than optimum environment with heat, cold bumpy roads and so on. I think I read a link somewhere that the government did test EMP against cars made from 1986 to 2002 or so and all or most survived, a couple quit running but they started up again I think. I know Ford did an EMP study in 1967 where cars are not affected too much but most car electronics then were less complex than today's.

Chuck M.

[Mohoender]

I think most civilian vehicles would survive, the car body itself can act as a Faraday shield.

Chuck M.

Very true and very possible indeed (I always forget about that faraday thing). However, I think one of us said that infrastructures were not shielded or protected at all. As a result, you'll quickly have to face a shortage in electronic spare parts. With no proper care, I wouldn't expect the most modern car to survive long, nevertheless. In addition, with no diagnosis computers most mechanics might have trouble fixing them.

[chico20854]

One other factor to consider about shielding: do underground parking lots and highway tunnels provide protection? I know they are quite effective in killing off radio broadcasts and mobile phone transmissions. Anybody have any ideas?

[Mohoender]

No clue but that might also be true for old stone buildings. My house is quite good at shielding these stuffs too. However, from a wild guess I would think that it would depend on intensity.

[Targan]

I imagine that reinforced concrete (ie concrete with steel rods or mesh through it to strengthen it) would provide more protection against EMP than normal concrete or rock because it might act as a kind of basic Faraday cage. I could be wrong on this though.

[kato13]

Since mountains cause an EMP shadows I would have to assume that some amount of concrete or earth would offer protection.

EMP also causes a problem with reradiation where a long piece of metal will absorb and retransmit. Phone lines might radiate energy within a basement for example. However since such radiation is generated in all directions the range is quite short (a few feet).

[Mohoender]

Since mountains cause an EMP shadows I would have to assume that some amount of concrete or earth would offer protection.



Then, an old medieval type building might even offer more protection than a non purposedly made concrete building (still I have no clue on this but if anyone has, I'll be glad to hear from it).

[Legbreaker]

I've been deep in research on the effects of EMP for most of the day and come to several conclusions based on the information I've read. Sources include papers written for the US military, scientific studies, and apparently "authoritive" books on the subject such as The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, by Glasstone and Dolan.

Firstly, a car IS likely to be effected by EMP. The body will not act as a "Faraday cage" or at least not to any significant amount. Rubber tyres will do absolutely nothing to offset the effects of EMP, otherwise planes would also be exempt.

Sheilding in all cases includes earthing - direct contact to the earth using a conductor. Rubber tyres actually prevent this occuring. I'm not sure how this is achieved with aircraft but I'll continue to investigate.

Solid metal plates are the material of choice when attempting to shield anything although burying cables, etc is advised (with metal sheeting laid over the top). Therefore, it's likely underground garages, caves, etc will have some impact on EMP.

Just because it doesn't state in the various versions of history that high altitude bursts occured, doesn't mean they didn't happen. It does state though that satellites in orbit were targeted and destroyed. Not knowing anything about ASAT weaponry, I would have to say it's at least possible low yield nukes were responsible for a few dead spy satellites. In fact EMP might be especially devastating to them but as they're shielded against cosmic radiation, etc, who knows?

And now for some good news. Although vehicles such as cars, trucks, wheeled AFVs, aircraft, even ships would be effected, tanks and other tracked AFVs are likely to suffer only minimal EMP effects. This is mainly because the armour itself acts as shielding AND most importantly, the metal tracks mean the vehicle is constantly grounded!

Naturally many of these vehicles might still fall victim, especially if radio antenna are still raised, hatches open, etc, or they're just too close to the source of the EMP.

[Mohoender]

Interesiting Leg. :)

[Canadian Army]

I have been doing research as well. What I came up with is that it's basically a crap shoot, when it comes to whether cars and trucks would not be knocked out by EMP. According to tests done at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory and at the US Military's EMP simulators, some cars have proven to be resistant to EMP, while other have not. The age, make, and car model, have nothing to do with whether cars and trucks can be knocked out or can not knocked out by EMP; it has to do with the position of the car’s electronic components. If the electronic components are position in a certain way, the body of the car will almost act as a Faraday Box and protect the internal electronic components. Also they found out during these tests; that in some of the cars that failed to survive the EMP pulse, only the electronic ignition was damaged, and therefore those could be used once the electronic ignition was bypassed.:cool:

[Canadian Army]

Here are some sites about EMP

http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Altitude_Electromagnetic_Pulse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

[Mohoender]

Euh? I might be wrong but from what I know, older cars have no electronics and, as a result, wouldn't be knocked out by EMP. Therefore, age has to do with it.

I don't know if the electrical system can be destroyed as well but replacing a bunch of electrical wires will not be that much of a problem. Even, finding or making a battery is faisable.

[Legbreaker]

Electrical systems are also effected.

Older systems are more "robust" I suppose is the best description, simply because the damaged parts can be replaced much easier than modern wiring and electronics.

Finding parts to do it on the other hand.....

[Targan]

Older systems are more "robust" I suppose is the best description, simply because the damaged parts can be replaced much easier than modern wiring and electronics...
REALLY old electronic systems that use vacuum tubes are incredibly resistant to EMP apparently. Not so easy to replace though.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

REALLY old electronic systems that use vacuum tubes are incredibly resistant to EMP apparently.
Apparently one of the reasons the USSR kept using vacuum tube tech for aircraft & radios well past the time they could make transistors

[Legbreaker]

But they're still effected according to what I was reading yesterday. They're down the order a bit, but they're still effected.

ANYTHING with an electrical current is effected. Experiments have been conducted on animals to see what the results are on the nervous system because of that fact. Good news is it appeared there's little to no measurable impact.

[kato13]

From a link I found in the morrow project yahoo group (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/MorrowProject/).

The potential EMP vulnerability of automobiles derives from the use of built-in electronics that support multiple automotive functions. Electronic components were first introduced into automobiles in the late 1960s. As time passed and electronics technologies evolved, electronic applications in automobiles proliferated. Modern automobiles have as many as 100 microprocessors that control virtually all functions. While electronic applications have proliferated within automobiles, so too have application standards and electromagnetic interference and electromagnetic compatibility (EMI/EMC) practices. Thus, while it might be expected that increased EMP vulnerability would accompany the proliferated electronics applications, this trend, at least in part, is mitigated by the increased application of EMI/EMC practices.

We tested a sample of 37 cars in an EMP simulation laboratory, with automobile vintages ranging from 1986 through 2002. Automobiles of these vintages include extensive electronics and represent a significant fraction of automobiles on the road today. The testing was conducted by exposing running and nonrunning automobiles to sequentially increasing EMP field intensities. If anomalous response (either temporary or permanent) was observed, the testing of that particular automobile was stopped. If no anomalous response was observed, the testing was continued up to the field intensity limits of the simulation capability (approximately 50 kV/m).

Automobiles were subjected to EMP environments under both engine turned off and engine turned on conditions. No effects were subsequently observed in those automobiles that were not turned on during EMP exposure. The most serious effect observed on running
automobiles was that the motors in three cars stopped at field strengths of approximately 30 kV/m or above. In an actual EMP exposure, these vehicles would glide to a stop and require the driver to restart them. Electronics in the dashboard of one automobile were damaged and required repair. Other effects were relatively minor. Twenty-five automobiles exhibited malfunctions that could be considered only a nuisance (e.g., blinking dashboard lights) and did not require driver intervention to correct. Eight of the 37 cars tested did not exhibit any anomalous response.

Based on these test results, we expect few automobile effects at EMP field levels below 25 kV/m. Approximately 10 percent or more of the automobiles exposed to higher field levels may experience serious EMP effects, including engine stall, that require driver intervention to correct. We further expect that at least two out of three automobiles on the road will manifest some nuisance response at these higher field levels. The serious malfunctions could trigger car crashes on U.S. highways; the nuisance malfunctions could exacerbate this condition. The ultimate result of automobile EMP exposure could be triggered crashes that damage many more vehicles than are damaged by the EMP, the consequent loss of life, and multiple injuries. (emphases added)

From Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack (http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2473-EMP_Commission-7MB.pdf) (7MB). PDF page 131 numbered page 115

In general they feel that blown traffic systems and lack of electricity for gas pumps will lead to greater degradation of the transportation system than disabled vehicles.

[Legbreaker]

Ah, good old political spin in action again it appears....

Firstly, I'd be interested in how they worked up to their settings - was it in one sudden pulse, or did they just turn the dial slowly until they achieved the desired level?

As the damage is actually inflicted by the SUDDEN increase in electrical activity, a slow increase isn't likely to have anywhere near the same effect.

Secondly, they only tested up to approximately 50,000 V/m. That's NOTHING when you consider,

...electric fields greater than 1,000,000 V/m and peak magnetic fields greater than 4,000 A/m can exist.
So, bearing that information in mind, information generated from the both NATO and US DoD documents, I'd say the Commissions report might be just slightly tinged with political expediancy....

[kato13]

If you read the report it is very much a chicken little report (the sky is falling). It just seems that cars are one of the more hardy parts of the infrastructure.

From the Executive summary

Several potential adversaries have or can acquire the capability to attack the United States with a high-altitude nuclear weapon-generated electromagnetic pulse (EMP). A determined adversary can achieve an EMP attack capability without having a high level of sophistication.

EMP is one of a small number of threats that can hold our society at risk of catastrophic consequences. EMP will cover the wide geographic region within line of sight to the nuclear weapon. It has the capability to produce significant damage to critical infrastructures and thus to the very fabric of US society, as well as to the ability of the United States and Western nations to project influence and military power.

The common element that can produce such an impact from EMP is primarily electronics, so pervasive in all aspects of our society and military, coupled through critical infrastructures. Our vulnerability is increasing daily as our use of and dependence on electronics continues to grow. The impact of EMP is asymmetric in relation to potential protagonists who are not as dependent on modern electronics.

The current vulnerability of our critical infrastructures can both invite and reward attack if not corrected. Correction is feasible and well within the Nation's means and resources to accomplish.

http://www.empcommission.org/docs/empc_exec_rpt.pdf



More quotes

Depending on the specific characteristics of the attacks, unprecedented cascading failures of our major infrastructures could result. In that event, a regional or national recovery would be long and difficult and would seriously degrade the safety and overall viability of our Nation. The primary avenues for catastrophic damage to the Nation are through our electric power infrastructure and thence into our telecommunications, energy, and other infrastructures. These, in turn, can seriously impact other important aspects of our Nation’s life, including the financial system; means of getting food, water, and medical care to the citizenry; trade; and production of goods and services. The recovery of any one of the key national infrastructures is dependent on the recovery of others. The longer the outage, the more problematic and uncertain the recovery will be. It is possible for the functional outages to become mutually reinforcing until at some point the degradation of infrastructure could have irreversible effects on the country’s ability to support its population.

[kato13]

Firstly, I'd be interested in how they worked up to their settings - was it in one sudden pulse, or did they just turn the dial slowly until they achieved the desired level?

Secondly, they only tested up to approximately 50,000 V/m. That's NOTHING when you consider,

Originally Posted by FAS
...electric fields greater than 1,000,000 V/m and peak magnetic fields greater than 4,000 A/m can exist.


I would have to assume the peak fields would not reach the surface over a large area. Unless this commission feels they can get away with testing 1/20 of what will actually hit the surface and not get called on it. Also remember that when something radiates in 3 dimensions energy drops rapidly for every doubling of distance.

Their tests show computers having problems at 3kV/m and Damaged at 8-16 kV/m. Locomotives start have disruptive problems around 20 kV/m. Cars and to a lesser extent trucks just seem more robust under similar testing circumstances.

[natehale1971]

So I guess everyone is saying that the distructive effects of EMP wouldn't be as bad as the T2K universe has presented. That actually gives me alot more really good ideas on how to improve the way I can set things up for the future campaigns I want to create.

The fact that small scale personal electronics wouldn't be as effected by an EMP burst would actually improve some of the 'luxuries' that the characters would have to fall back upon to help give them a little bit of comfort.

But it would also mean that all sides in the war would have put alot of use of their anti-satellite weapons arsenals into use to knock out any and all satellites they can. But at the same time, it would also put a lot of effort to put replacements either in orbit or high altitude (like the 'weather ballons' that had been used before the U2 spy planes where used).

[Legbreaker]

I tend to take official committee type reports with a grain of salt. They're usually commissioned by a politician (or group of them) with an agenda with the results often skewed to fit.

Going back to the actual research documents, those written up by the scientists who actually did the tests, tends, at least in my opinion, to give a truer indication of the possible effects.

Everything I've been able to find from the horses mouth so to speak, says everything is going to be effected, ESPECIALLY more modern, hi tech electronics. Not having read the committee's report (I'll get to it though once I've some time), I still expect based on the excerpts posted thus far, that the findings are based on flawed research.

Perhaps those responsible for the report have an interest in the car industry? Perhaps having the majority of cars off the road will assist them in some way (maybe they've got shares in one of the major manufacturers for example).
Perhaps they've got a far more immediate interest in improving the infrastructure (shares in traffic light manufacturing companies)? Who really knows?

Regardless, research has shown that as a rule of thumb, the more modern a device, the more hi tech, light weight and delicate electronics (and electricals) involved, the more vulnerable it is. Therefore, don't expect your I-pod to work but your old 1980's walkman might....

[Targan]

Regardless, research has shown that as a rule of thumb, the more modern a device, the more hi tech, light weight and delicate electronics (and electricals) involved, the more vulnerable it is. Therefore, don't expect your I-pod to work but your old 1980's walkman might....
I agree with Legbreaker's analysis.

[kato13]

Well I hope everyone interested reads the report. They are not very optimistic on many things. My general thought about these type of reports is that are more likely to overstate dangers as part of a "Cover Your Ass" mentality. In this report cars and trucks seem to be the exception, which matches anecdotal data I have heard about for years.

[headquarters]

:) come on guys ! How else am I going to beat my party back into the stoneage and make their enviroment a barbarious savage mad maxian world were hair dressing products is the scarce and precious commodity all fight over ??!


But seriously , from your comments - I sense some distrust to official views - and that is a bit disturbing consideringthe serious matter . What I am tryingto say is that it is sad that we have to have doubts about the truth in goverment findings like these.

But I agree in your statements of doubt to some extent .

I guess we deont need EMP to shut down vehicular travel - in a limited time there will be no gas and voila .All cars will be standing were they ran out more or less.And for the hoarders - gas is only stabile for 12- 24 months , maybe double with special additives .(Its "pep" dissipates over time )

Also lack of spareparts and malfunctions other than EMP would render many modern cars useless in a short time.

But I " like" the EMP catastrophy in gaming terms - and take the alternative view that a sudden sharp emp will fry most unshielded circuts within a certain range . ( One explanation to all the tubes in Soviet electronics - they stood up better to EMPs )

[Nowhere Man 1966]

From a link I found in the morrow project yahoo group (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/MorrowProject/).

(emphases added)

From Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack (http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2473-EMP_Commission-7MB.pdf) (7MB). PDF page 131 numbered page 115

In general they feel that blown traffic systems and lack of electricity for gas pumps will lead to greater degradation of the transportation system than disabled vehicles.

I pretty much agree with that, don't forget, automobile electronics are made to stand up to rugged conditions, perhaps because of that, they are not as prone to EMP as most think although that could be a side effect. Most diodes and transistors in automobiles are huge things as well. Plus unless you have a Corvette, the car body is like a Faraday cage. I work in auto parts and see this stuff all the time.

As to weird stuff happening like gauges going crazy or idiot lights blinking, well, thati s possible too, then again, I remember my father bought a 1972 Chevy Bel-Air and the fuel gauge would read empty to full and back again, the temperature light would stay on and so on. We had a few bad switches, I remember Mom keeping track of fuel with the odometer and we just kept driving with out fingers crossed in the hope we won't overheat.

Another exception was a defect, Ford has some problems with heat shutting down the ignition systems in their 1990 Lincoln Town Cars. I was driving one from Moon Township near the Airport to North Huntington PA for a rental company I worked for. It was Sunday, after hours, everyone went home except me. Well, I made it through the Fort Pitt tunnel and the Lincoln died on me as I was on the Fort Pitt Bridge. The dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree and I had to coast to an emergency pullover place as I turned to I-376 to the Parkway East after getting off the Fort Pitt Bridge. I barely made it. I tried to restart the thing, no go. I tried several times, nothing. No one was coming by, I was near downtown Pittsburgh but it seem so deserted. No police came by or anyone. I sat there for 15 minutes. I decided to either hoof it, even if I had to walk on the highway or to restart again. Well, I tried the car, it restarted no problems and I made it to North Huntington no problem. I picked up the vehicle I was supposed to and made it home.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

So I guess everyone is saying that the distructive effects of EMP wouldn't be as bad as the T2K universe has presented. That actually gives me alot more really good ideas on how to improve the way I can set things up for the future campaigns I want to create.

The fact that small scale personal electronics wouldn't be as effected by an EMP burst would actually improve some of the 'luxuries' that the characters would have to fall back upon to help give them a little bit of comfort.

But it would also mean that all sides in the war would have put alot of use of their anti-satellite weapons arsenals into use to knock out any and all satellites they can. But at the same time, it would also put a lot of effort to put replacements either in orbit or high altitude (like the 'weather ballons' that had been used before the U2 spy planes where used).

Yeah, even if you can drive around after the Apocalypse, life will still be Hell unless you can find a way to pup fuel out with a generator/battery powered system or a manual system along with somehow forming your own fuel in the long run. Even then, it will be Hell until you get some sort of power gird going.

[Legbreaker]

Plus unless you have a Corvette, the car body is like a Faraday cage. I work in auto parts and see this stuff all the time.
ARGH!

Once again a car body DOES NOT ACT AS A FARADAY CAGE!
See message #38 above for why. Also http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=628&highlight=faraday

The faults you've refered to are just that - faults. They might be reasonable symptoms of a dodgy electrical component or two, but they've got next to nothing to do with EMP.

I respect your opinions and automotive knowledge, but please, please, PLEASE read the relevant information that's been refered to in several posts.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

ARGH!

Once again a car body DOES NOT ACT AS A FARADAY CAGE!
See message #38 above for why. Also http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=628&highlight=faraday

The faults you've refered to are just that - faults. They might be reasonable symptoms of a dodgy electrical component or two, but they've got next to nothing to do with EMP.

I respect your opinions and automotive knowledge, but please, please, PLEASE read the relevant information that's been refered to in several posts.

From what I understand, a Faraday cage does not have to be grounded to work so I still contend that a car's body can act as one.

[Legbreaker]

While grounding may not be entirely necessary in some cases (still researching that), any openings will negate any protection provided by the vehicles body - ie windows are going to be a BIG problem.
Also, the wiring thoughout the vehicle acts as an antenna, channeling the EMP from exposed areas to more critical, and normally shielded, areas concentrating the pulse and causing damage.

I've found at least one example of where EMP was so strong in wiring that it welded them together!

[kato13]

I fully agree that "Faraday Cage" might be an inaccurate term for a car's body since you can still get cell phone reception. The cars metal body however would certainly change how the waves interact with the car, perhaps enhancing energy in some areas (due to reradiation) and perhaps shielding in others.

My condo is not a true "Faraday cage" either but I do have that old time metal reinforced plaster. I cannot get cell phone reception nor UHF/VHF. I can however get AM/FM. In a true Faraday cage I would get nothing. But that is not to say I am not slightly more protected.

[Mohoender]

I fully agree that "Faraday Cage" might be an inaccurate term for a car's body since you can still get cell phone reception. The cars metal body however would certainly change how the waves interact with the car, perhaps enhancing energy in some areas (due to reradiation) and perhaps shielding in others.

My condo is not a true "Faraday cage" either but I do have that old time metal reinforced plaster. I cannot get cell phone reception nor UHF/VHF. I can however get AM/FM. In a true Faraday cage I would get nothing. But that is not to say I am not slightly more protected.

I think that you got a point. My grand father (a physicist) was saying that a car was acting as a faraday cage and I'm sure he knew what he was talking about. however, with new cars, you won't find that much metal and i wander what the effects will be.

[kalos72]

And you shall be reborn...

So hate to bring this up again but, what about ships?

Would a tanker/cargo/frigates electronics get fried the same way?

[Trooper]

Car in EMP simulator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0odJKYTzXg8

[kalos72]

Car is not the same as military naval vessel I am thinking...also that test isn't really practical. If I am 10 feet away from an atomic blast, EMP damage is not a real concern. :)

[kato13]

I agreed that yes,, the car is not the military naval vessel plus the most important thing that you depicted in which I admire like the test isn't really practical,,


I have to say I am impressed by the latest spambots. They even paraphrase now (rather than direct quoting) to avoid detection.

If you see a new poster with a link in their sig (removed in this case) let me know so I can investigate them.

I will be removing this user at a later date (I want to see if they come back to make any more posts or other adjustments)