The importance of rank

[copeab]

"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here"
-- Jayne Con, Firefly, "The Train Job"

So, how important is rank to you in your campaigns?

[dragoon500ly]

Now that depends entirely on the players, some can cooperate to acheive goals, and some are such utter buttheads that the GM is left with little choice to but work with the more responsible player during character generation in order to insure that the game doesn't dissolve into he said/he said arguements...and all too many times it still does.

For me, the chief advantage of face-to-face gaming is that I can see the people playing and gauge in advance..PBEM on the other hand...you can find some "winners" out there and no, that is not meant in a nice way!

[Mohoender]

in order to insure that the game doesn't dissolve into he said/he said arguements...

That never happens and when it does, the game quickly ends in "you have been killed and vaporized".;) Too bad if the players had listen to what I was saying they would have realized that a full battalion of T-90 was rolling over their position. Don't tell me that T-90 make a lot of noise, in such case I become a "did he say anything person".:D

[Targan]

In my last campaign rank seemed to be important (I didn't enforce it that way, it just seemed that the players followed rank structure with their characters) but in other campaigns rank hasn't mattered so much. So I chose "depends on the campaign". I ran a really succesful one-off once where the characters were part of a long range patrol of French Foreign Legionnares on the Iran-Iraq border and the chain of command was rigidly adhered to in that game. I guess more often than not rank does matter in my campaigns.

[TiggerCCW UK]

My players are more normally fantasy gamers, so they've very little interest in, or need for, a rigid command structure. One of the guys tried playing as a hard line officer, but sadly made a number of poor decisions - players fault, not the characters :) The rest of the party obeyed him when they felt it was safe to, and lets just say no one rushed to save him after he was badly wounded. If truth be told one of the other party members finished him off, but never told the others :)

[dragoon500ly]

That never happens and when it does, the game quickly ends in "you have been killed and vaporized".;) Too bad if the players had listen to what I was saying they would have realized that a full battalion of T-90 was rolling over their position. Don't tell me that T-90 make a lot of noise, in such case I become a "did he say anything person".:D

Subtle....

I always perfer the 30-minute prep fire by the 122mm howitzer battalion...and if they still don't get the message...drop the BM-21 barrage right ontop of their final position, the mix of HE, WP and Nerve Agent tends to get the point across.

:D

[HorseSoldier]

The old original version of the Vietnam-era game Recon had the idea of having indirect fire arrive onto a grid where you just roll percentile dice to determine where the round comes in. I've used that idea in several other games, T2K included, to get people moving -- kind of like, come to think about it, how I've used grenade and artillery sims thrown against exterior walls to get guys moving in real world MOUT and urban movement training.

[Adm.Lee]

I remember in my first campaign, things were tweaked by the other players that the most experienced wargamers opted for officer, the rest did not. I think most of my subsequent campaigns had similar behind-the-scenes maneuvers.

Most of the people I play RPGs with have laid-back standards towards group leadership, with almost no one wanting to take command (typical gamer nerds). If it's D&D, no one wants to be King, if it's a starship or pirate game, someone has to be drafted to be captain. The two experienced wargamers mentioned above? They went on to have military careers, and so aren't here to play leaders for me anymore.

[Raellus]

It really depends on...

A. The style of campaign
B. The players

I've played in games where rank was important and the chain of command adhered to pretty strictly and I've played/GM'ed games with a loose team-was oriented decision making protocal.

The former style of game only works with mature, skilled RP'ers. Try it with a less competent group and things usually dissolve into rank pulling and pissing contests. The latter is a lot easier to manage, but it can slow things down (in PbEMs and PbPs, especially) if you don't have a player willing to step in and make a command decision. Also, firefights can end badly for the players if everyone decides to go off and do his/her own thing.

So, before starting a game, you need to know what kind of campaign it's going to be and what skill and maturity levels your GM/players have.

[boogiedowndonovan]

I marked "Rank what's Rank". I'm a very liberul GM when it comes to things like rank. When I'm running a game, I want everyone to participate and have fun.

I also tell players who have characters with higher ranks that they are expected to take some type of leadership role with the caveat that this is not the real world military, so don't be surprised if someone disagrees.

Having said that, it doesn't always work, like Rae and Adm. Lee have said. Some players are up to the challenge of taking a leadership role and some just want a high rank so they can look "cool".

I recall a short lived PBEM where a high school kid generated a USMC Force Recon Lt. Colonel, the rest of the players (some of my guys from my own PBEM, due to time constraints I wasn't playing) were NCO or enlisted ranks. The game quickly bogged down because the guy playing the Lt. Colonel was one of those "strong silent types".

[mikeo80]

In the T2K games I played, my character tended to be a low rank person. I think PFC was the best I ever had. Being that I had no military experience, I would follow the orders of the guy with the experience.

I did notice that the guys that in RL were military or ex-military, tended to have E-4 to E-7 rank in the game. They tended to be more free lance about the "chain of command" but as a newly arrived draftee, who survived boot camp somehow, there was a definite pecking order.

Now if the Dumb Bunny, (read me or my character) came up with a suggestion that had merit, then the guys would at least listen.

Just my two cents! :p

Mike

[Raellus]

To elaborate on my earlier post (my lunch break ended), I myself am an amateur military historian but I've never served in the military so my knowledge of certain current military procedureshas some holes in it. A friend asked me to play the unit commander in a T2K PbP and I was somewhat reluctant due to the above. I solved the problem by creating a PC who is an ex-USAF pilot, grounded by a lack of aircraft/parts/fuel, and placed into an army combat command due to attrition. He knows his limitations and confers often with his senior NCOs, sometimes deferring to their experience.

In another PbP, we actually had an NCO PC choke out a ranking officer because he felt that the officer was consistently risking the other PC's lives by making some bad calls. The other members of the unit felt much the same way and supported the act.

A PC played by Law once pistol-whipped my officer PC because of a disagreement over what to do with a Russian prisoner.

This kind of thing can sometimes add to a game, but a lot of times it can do more harm than good.

So, based on my own experiences, games in which rank is not so important probably have a better chance of surviving longer.

[pmulcahy11b]

I put Other, because in most games I played in or GMed the leader was the player with the most experience.

[Adm.Lee]

I should have mentioned the convention game I played last year. The group made a conscious decision to make someone who professed no military knowledge or experience as the LT and convoy commander. The guys with experience (none of them former officers) took the higher-ranking NCOs or infantry-MOS characters. The wheels came off pretty quickly.

I was a Sp4 driver for the Topkick in the lead truck, and he spent nearly as much time yelling at me as he did shooting the enemy. He wanted the HMMWV to stand still in the kill zone, and I wanted to get out of it. (That's 'cause HE wasn't the one getting hit!) The Lt. didn't command much (IMO), and most of the convoy sat outside the kill sack and watched.

So, we mostly obeyed the chain of command, after showing a healthy disrespect for it.

[pmulcahy11b]

I put Other, because in most games I played in or GMed the leader was the player with the most experience.

Another thing I remember was that combat arms players, when available, tended to dominate. When playing with military players, they also tended to gravitate towards their actual MOS.

[boogiedowndonovan]

In another PbP, we actually had an NCO PC choke out a ranking officer because he felt that the officer was consistently risking the other PC's lives by making some bad calls. The other members of the unit felt much the same way and supported the act.

A PC played by Law once pistol-whipped my officer PC because of a disagreement over what to do with a Russian prisoner.

This kind of thing can sometimes add to a game, but a lot of times it can do more harm than good.
.


Wow pretty intense. But then again, I shot another character in a PBEM. He was mouthing off, and pointed a gun at my character. I double checked with the GM first and he was ok with it. This player had just joined the group and I think the GM was having second thoughts of letting him in.

But yeah, I agree with Rae's point about sometimes inter character conflict can do more harm than good, particularly in PBEMS.

In the rare instances when I get to play, my choice is to play draftees or Air Force or Navy characters, which covers for my lack of knowledge regarding Army procedure.

[dragoon500ly]

Wow pretty intense. But then again, I shot another character in a PBEM. He was mouthing off, and pointed a gun at my character. I double checked with the GM first and he was ok with it. This player had just joined the group and I think the GM was having second thoughts of letting him in.

But yeah, I agree with Rae's point about sometimes inter character conflict can do more harm than good, particularly in PBEMS.

In the rare instances when I get to play, my choice is to play draftees or Air Force or Navy characters, which covers for my lack of knowledge regarding Army procedure.

When I was in the green machine, there was a running joke about Army procedure:

1) Shoot anything that moves, using all available automatic weapons.
2) Have the mortars bomb the grid square.
3) Call in Redleg (artillery) to dump DPICM/HE/WP over the area.
4) Call in gunships to stafe the @%#^#$ out of the place.
5) When smoke clears, scout area, if any fire is received, repeat.

[Legbreaker]

When I was in the green machine, there was a running joke about Army procedure:

1) Shoot anything that moves, using all available automatic weapons.
2) Have the mortars bomb the grid square.
3) Call in Redleg (artillery) to dump DPICM/HE/WP over the area.
4) Call in gunships to stafe the @%#^#$ out of the place.
5) When smoke clears, scout area, if any fire is received, repeat.

"Sorry, it was just somebody's lost puppy..."

[pmulcahy11b]

When I was in the green machine, there was a running joke about Army procedure:

1) Shoot anything that moves, using all available automatic weapons.
2) Have the mortars bomb the grid square.
3) Call in Redleg (artillery) to dump DPICM/HE/WP over the area.
4) Call in gunships to stafe the @%#^#$ out of the place.
5) When smoke clears, scout area, if any fire is received, repeat.

Sorry, it was just an MRE wrapper floating around...

[Fusilier]

A PC played by Law once pistol-whipped my officer PC because of a disagreement.

MMMmmm... pistol whip.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/97/237869378_e22614c89f.jpg

[Fusilier]

To me rank depends on the campaign.

In my online game, rank is adhered to fairly close because of the initial story setup. But the group seems to make exceptions once in a while.

Regarding the commander slot, it's currently held by simonmark6, who I don't believe was ever in the military. Military service isn't a prerequsite or anything in my game for determining your PC's rank. And especially with who takes the commander role, as I find maturity and commitment far more valuable.

[B.T.]

In my ongoing campaign rank is an issue ... No one wanted to play the CO because of the responsibility for the group. After we had one volunteer, everybody strictly wanted the chain of command. The lower ranks were not alltogether pleased with the Captains decisions, naturally. The captain was not lucky with his men. After some characters had been changed (Players are still the same, but some of the starting characters were seriously wounded, killed or just did not work.) the captain was confronted with a group of characters, who quite openly said, he was a moron and his ideas of handling problems was rubbish.

The players talked about it and came to the decision, that they will try to play T2k in a more "Shadowrun"-manner - trying to seak their goals and plans in a more democratic way, letting the captain deal with official things.

I was really surprised, because most members of my group have no military experience IRL. Well, we will see :cool:

[boogiedowndonovan]

MMMmmm... pistol whip.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/97/237869378_e22614c89f.jpg



nbgOQf4NaG8

[Raellus]

In my online game, rank is adhered to fairly close because of the initial story setup. But the group seems to make exceptions once in a while.

i.e. Sleeper Hold!

[dragoon500ly]

"Sorry, it was just somebody's lost puppy..."

In that case, it is okay to replace calling in gunships with "Overuse of flamethrowers."

LOL

[dragoon500ly]

Sorry, it was just an MRE wrapper floating around...

In that case, add "Request Warthog support to clusterbomb the grid square."

Didn't they teach you anything in the 82nd?

;):D

[Legbreaker]

I'm Australian. We don't need overkill (as fun as it is).

[dragoon500ly]

I'm Australian. We don't need overkill (as fun as it is).

I know, I know, one shot, one kill......it's just that my one shot happens to involve a 120mm round!

Hmmmmm...if you fire one belt of .50-caliber in one long burst...doesn't that count as "one shot"?

:p

[Panther Al]

Just for the record:

If you do use a 120mm DU round as a sniper weapon, to say, hit that Haji standing in a minaret sniping at your guys, the end result is pink mist.


Not that I would know since using something that big on someone is very much against the rules....

[pmulcahy11b]

I know, I know, one shot, one kill......it's just that my one shot happens to involve a 120mm round!

Hmmmmm...if you fire one belt of .50-caliber in one long burst...doesn't that count as "one shot"?

:p

How about a weapon firing belted 120mm sabots?:camper:

[Legbreaker]

Hmmmmm...if you fire one belt of .50-caliber in one long burst...doesn't that count as "one shot"?

:p

Ah...no, sorry. One projectile per kill is all that's allowed. Any more than that and you could find yourself up on a charge for wasting vital resources.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Ah...no, sorry. One projectile per kill is all that's allowed. Any more than that and you could find yourself up on a charge for wasting vital resources.

That's the only reason we stress "one shot, one kill" in the Australian Army, we're too damned poor to afford to give each soldier more than one mag of live ammo.
And as for tanks in the battle zone using their main gun to kill enemy snipers at long range, what the hell are you thinking! We're not going to issue main gun ammo to you for a war just in case somebody might need it.

[Legbreaker]

And as for tanks in the battle zone using their main gun to kill enemy snipers at long range, what the hell are you thinking! We're not going to issue main gun ammo to you for a war just in case somebody might need it.

For that matter we're not going to send our tanks to war at all! The poor things might get scratched!

:eek:

[dragoon500ly]

Ah...no, sorry. One projectile per kill is all that's allowed. Any more than that and you could find yourself up on a charge for wasting vital resources.

Right....so its 120mm HEAT when shooting PBI!

[dragoon500ly]

LOL

I think I'll stick with my version of one shot, one kill...when the sniper fires, your nuke the site from orbit....its the only way to be sure you get him.

[helbent4]

A friend asked me to play the unit commander in a T2K PbP and I was somewhat reluctant due to the above. I solved the problem by creating a PC who is an ex-USAF pilot, grounded by a lack of aircraft/parts/fuel, and placed into an army combat command due to attrition. He knows his limitations and confers often with his senior NCOs, sometimes deferring to their experience.


I think in this situation, playing an admitted amateur, your PC should always defer to your NCOs' experienced judgement, not just sometimes. (Full disclosure: of course, I say this as someone playing an NCO in the game in question!)

I'm not being facetious, this is actually realistic.

In real life far better officers than your PC (combat-experienced infantry officers) always defer to their NCOs, if those NCOs have the experience and judgment to warrant it. The following is a real-life example of a Canadian Forces Captain and a Sergeant deferring to a well-respected Master Corporal (ranked beneath either) that I think I've posted before:


"The first time I saw him, he was quite literally presiding over a meeting between two sets of patrol leaders—one captain and one sergeant—during a long and arduous hike in the deep outback of western Panjwai.

The captain and sergeant would make plans, then kind of quietly look up at Doyle. With a headshake and a grunt, he’d torpedo their idea and they’d go back to the map. This went on for half an hour or more, as gunfire and explosions rippled overhead. With his rank obscured by his gear—his battle rattle—I assumed he was a warrant officer or maybe the company sergeant major, based solely on the deference and respect he received from the other soldiers, many of whom I knew to be cynics of the first order."

- From "The Life and Death of Erin Doyle"

http://www.legionmagazine.com/en/index.php/2009/03/the-life-and-death-of-erin-doyle/

While the CF has come under criticism in the past for being cheap on gear and vehicles (although this is largely but not entirely rectified now) I don't believe the quality and training of officers and NCOs in the field has ever been seriously questioned. In other words, this is not the case of incompetent leadership deferring to someone marginally less-incompetent.

Tony

[Snake Eyes]

One should quite simply not be allowed to play roleplaying games without having actually served as an infantry squad leader. Kind of like how one isn't qualified to play a fantasy barbarian unless raised by genuine wolves with lots of real life broadsword swinging skills and giant scorpion slaying experience.

[helbent4]

One should quite simply not be allowed to play roleplaying games without having actually served as an infantry squad leader. Kind of like how one isn't qualified to play a fantasy barbarian unless raised by genuine wolves with lots of real life broadsword swinging skills and giant scorpion slaying experience.

Snake,

Hear hear! Well said!

Much like one shouldn't post to a board like this unless you personally programmed the code and then created the English language.

No wait, too silly! :p

Speaking personally, when I've played OC types, I generally let the NCOs do all the planning and run the show. I just provided a kind of strategic direction and let them go at it. It kept the other players quite involved and personally invested, too. In the end, it was up to the NCOs to run the unit without any micro-managing needed by me.

While this anecdote about Master Corporal Doyle was an interesting real-life example, I learned the ropes from a couple US Marines when I first started playing The Morrow Project. It's a lesson I truly took to heart.

Tony

[TiggerCCW UK]

One should quite simply not be allowed to play roleplaying games without having actually served as an infantry squad leader. Kind of like how one isn't qualified to play a fantasy barbarian unless raised by genuine wolves with lots of real life broadsword swinging skills and giant scorpion slaying experience.

Thats exactly why every character I play is an awesome super ninja who is deadly with every weapon system on the planet, fluent in 23 languages, a demolitions expert and unstoppable with the ladies. Stick with what you know folks :D:D:D:D

[Tegyrius]

How about a weapon firing belted 120mm sabots?:camper:

Is that your submission for the AAA thread, Paul? :D

One should quite simply not be allowed to design roleplaying games without having actually served as an infantry squad leader.

Fixed your typo!

- C.

[Abbott Shaull]

One should quite simply not be allowed to play roleplaying games without having actually served as an infantry squad leader. Kind of like how one isn't qualified to play a fantasy barbarian unless raised by genuine wolves with lots of real life broadsword swinging skills and giant scorpion slaying experience.

But that half of fun of play these games when you people who haven't served as Infantry or Combat MOS as they try to play the game or worse GM one..lol

[Panther Al]

How about a weapon firing belted 120mm sabots?:camper:

You mean this one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_cm_tornautomatpjäs_m/70

Granted its not belted, but it is watercooled with 25rpm.

From the page: "The 12cm/70 gun is a fully automatic, water cooled vertical sliding wedge design mounted in an armored turret which is electrically traversed under computer control..."

[Sanjuro]

When we first started playing T2k, only 2 of us in the group had ANY military experience- I had marginally more than the other guy (neither of us had much) so I ended up the only officer in our original party.
By the 3rd session or so I had to keep at least one backup weapon on my person at all times, and leave the party at night to sleep- taking the rotor arm of the FAV and a couple of claymores to discourage visitors. Fortunately, after their characters got killed, the 2 guys who were determined to turn marauder got bored with the game and moved on.
I'm admitting nothing about how their characters got killed. :cool:

[Snake Eyes]

Fixed your typo!

- C.



I was going to post some snarky retort asking just who you think you are trying to write a roleplaying game without having a Ranger tab, but then I remembered about Eddie and that argument kind of went to hell. Oops.

[Abbott Shaull]

I was going to post some snarky retort asking just who you think you are trying to write a roleplaying game without having a Ranger tab, but then I remembered about Eddie and that argument kind of went to hell. Oops.

Gee I remember surprise he has chimed in more...:cool:

[rcaf_777]

One should quite simply not be allowed to play roleplaying games without having actually served as an infantry squad leader. Kind of like how one isn't qualified to play a fantasy barbarian unless raised by genuine wolves with lots of real life broadsword swinging skills and giant scorpion slaying experience.


I'm I served as Finance Squad Leader that counts right, and if think we are leathal fighting unit, you ever been hit by a modern military paperwork and red tape, current weight 1 Ton it hurts

[WallShadow]

How about a weapon firing belted 120mm sabots?:camper:

Would that qualify as a "Varmint round"?

[Abbott Shaull]

I'm I served as Finance Squad Leader that counts right, and if think we are leathal fighting unit, you ever been hit by a modern military paperwork and red tape, current weight 1 Ton it hurts

So is it fired by page or by the ream. I can only imagine the painful paper cuts a ton of red tape could cause...

[WallShadow]

So is it fired by page or by the ream. I can only imagine the painful paper cuts a ton of red tape could cause...

When annual reports are coming due, they fire it by filing cabinet-load--and include the cabinets!

[weswood]

Thats exactly why every character I play is an awesome super ninja who is deadly with every weapon system on the planet, fluent in 23 languages, a demolitions expert and unstoppable with the ladies. Stick with what you know folks :D:D:D:D

I'm not believing you. Admit it, you can only say "I like the way your butt wiggles when you walk" and "Another beer, please" in at least 2 of those languages.