Germany in T2K

[cro]

Ok, due to fact, that there were several questions about Germany in T2K, I opened this thread to discuss Germany.

At first, I will pick up the questions from sglancy12

Do you think the H&K G11 Rifle rifle would ever have made it as the FRG's standard service rifle if the Cold War would have continued past 1989? Or was it always just an interesting experiment?

As far as I know is the G11 against the Geneva Convention because of its V0. It causes very dangerous wounds and kills very easy by its trauma (or shock). Scratch wounds become leathal because of the trauma inflicted by the very high V0. In simple words: the weapon is to cruel because it kills too easily.

If the H&K G11 didn't become the Bundeswehr's battle rifle, what would have been the service rifle for the Twilight War? The HK G-3? Or would the the H&K G-36 simply have arrived in the line a couple years early?

I think it would still be the G3. Maybe some Special Forces could use the G36 (or HK33 or G41) But notice, that the KSK (Kommandospezialkräfte = Commandoes) are not in service in T2K. So the only SFs are the frogman (Kampfschwimmer) and the Long Range Recce Paratroopers (Fernspähtruppe)
One notice: Many soldiers regret the G3 because of its calibre 7,62mm. But it had a very big recoil, especially when using the burst!

And finally, do you think there are any conditions under which the officer corps of East and West Germany of the fictional 1990s would have conspired against the East Germany Communist Party to over throw the DGR government in a manner similar to the version 1 TW2K timeline?

I have only the T2K vers. 2.2 and hear this for the first time. It sounds like scince fiction. Don't forget that the officer corps of the NVA had a close link to the ruling party. I don't think so.


My answers so far.
I hope we can bring the Bundeswehr to life in this tiny thread.
I'll do my very best and feel free to ask.

[Mohoender]

Thanks for this I find it very interesting. I have one further question concerning v2.2.

In my own timeline, when the Soviets cross into Germany, I have a number of former East German Army troopers joining with the Soviets and forming either the Karl Marx Korps or the Karl Marx Division (I like the korps better as it includes a number of air force units). What do you think of it?

[Panther Al]

As far as the G11 being against the Geneva Convention, I rather doubt it. In my mind, the work on the G36 (Or any of the 5.56 AR's) would have to be restarted more or less once the G11 gets flushed down the loo. While eventually they would adopt the G36, until they did the G3 would return, with perhaps another production run to make sure that there is parts and such available since I am assuming that some of the pulled G3's would have been sold on the market. Of course, all this depends on the point of view that they got a limited production run of the G11, announced that it was the new official standard, and after a short time came to the conclusion that it wasn't such a great idea after all. If they never did adopt the G11, I see the G3 staying strong right up till the war: I figure that with the storm clouds on the horizon that they would ramp back on a totally new rifle and all that goes with it in order to prevent confusion in a war should it happen.

[sglancy12]

I have only the T2K vers. 2.2 and hear this for the first time. It sounds like scince fiction. Don't forget that the officer corps of the NVA had a close link to the ruling party. I don't think so.

In the ver 1 timeline, the USSR demands that it's Warsaw Pact allies send troops east to fight the Red Chinese. At least two DDR divisions get cut off during a threatre-wide retreat and are completely wiped out by the Chinese. DDR officers can't help but notice that the Soviet units got out of the encirclement and that the DDR units were essentially left to die in place to ensure the breakout. At this point many DDR officers begin to think that the government should refuse another call for reinforcements. Nevertheless the East German communist party is too cowed to refuse their soviet masters. At this point East Germany officers begin to plan a coup. Many Soviet units have been withdrawn from East Germany to reinforces the war with China and many East German lower readiness units have been mobilized to take their place. The ratio of East German units to Soviet Units has never been more favorable. So they conspire with elements of the FRG government to gain support and recognition when they overthrow the communist party and liquidate the secret police. The success of the coup seems to hinge on the idea that the USSR won't be able to react fast enough to stop it. Furthermore, by having Bundeswehr units cross the border at the invitation of the East German military junta, the coup/reunification plotters think the Soviets will balk at a two front war.

Obviously they don't.

The canon has lots and lots of improbabilities... like the Italians and Greeks joining the Warsaw Pact... like the Soviet invasion of Alaska. However, those of us who love playing with the TW2k timeline in order to shore up these weak spots.

In the ver 1 timeline, the Twilight War in Europe has always been predicated on a German reunification crisis that takes place while the USSR is deeply distracted by a military crisis. Any suggestions you might have more making that less like science fiction, the better.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Legbreaker]

As far as I know is the G11 against the Geneva Convention because of its V0. It causes very dangerous wounds and kills very easy by its trauma (or shock).

There's also the false rumour the .50 cal round is against the Geneva Convention when used against personnel. If there's a round that kills too quickly, you'd think this would have to be it.

To my knowledge, the only thing that actually stopped implementation of the G11 was money. The reunification left the government extremely short of funds - the G11 was simply a victim of this.

[pmulcahy11b]

There's also the issue of the G11's ammo -- it's a new, innovative, and totally different round in a world where there are millions, if not billions, of 5.56mm, 7.62mm NATO. 7.62mm Kalashnikov, 5.45mm Kalashnikov, and 7.62mm Nagant rounds that are cheap to buy and have established production facilities all over the globe. That's why it's so hard to get rid of the 5.56mm NATO round now.

[Legbreaker]

The retention of the 5.56 round also comes back to money. Too much has been spent establishing the current huge stockpiles, and too many companies and individuals stand to make even more truckloads by continuing to produce it.
The manufacturers could potentially switch to a new round such as the 4.7cls, but that would mean retooling, licence agreements and all the costs associated with it.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

From all the material released about the G11, it seems that more was to be found in the English language books than was published in Germany itself. Apparently HK itself was surprised about the level of interest for the G11 outside of Germany even years after it had been dropped (a Norwegian guy on another forum attended a defence show in Norway sometime in the early 2000s and asked the HK rep about the G11, he said the rep was openly surprised that someone was asking about the rifle and had said that it's not something that they advertise anymore).
From what I recall, the G11 was officially adopted to replace the G3 & Uzi in combat units while the G41 was officially adopted for non-combat units (and as an extra option should the G11 not be adopted).

Keep in mind that HK were so sure of the adoption of the G11, they developed a light machinegun and a pistol at their own expense as compliments to the rifle.
The biggest reason that it's not in Germany service has already been mentioned by Legbreaker but some expansion on that will I hope make things clearer. The G11 was adopted because it was seen as a necessary system for West Germany because it was seen as addressing the massive imbalance in troop numbers (i.e. West Germany was vastly outnumbered by the Warsaw Pact forces). Once the threat of the Cold War was gone, the G11 was no longer as necessary and the money put aside for its adoption was spent on bringing together East and West Germany.

It's extremely unlikely the G36 would even have been thought of let alone developed as the G41 was already available for mass production (it's been stated that it was expensive to make but that's hardly surprising when you consider the low number produced, if production had been ramped up then the cost per unit would have declined substantially). And as mentioned above, it was the 'fallback' design should the G11 not be adopted for service.
The G36 owes its existence to the era after the end of the Cold War, if the Cold War had continued and the G11 not been adopted, the G41 would most likely be the main rifle in West German service.

Also, it's worth noting that HK never abandoned the design, it may not be in the catalogue but it's still considered viable and the US military is even now studying alternate ammunition types such as caseless, and the G11 system (for tech ideas) for future use.

[HorseSoldier]

It causes very dangerous wounds and kills very easy by its trauma (or shock). Scratch wounds become leathal because of the trauma inflicted by the very high V0. In simple words: the weapon is to cruel because it kills too easily.

So did my issue M4A1.

[HorseSoldier]

As far as the G11 being against the Geneva Convention, I rather doubt it. In my mind, the work on the G36 (Or any of the 5.56 AR's) would have to be restarted more or less once the G11 gets flushed down the loo. While eventually they would adopt the G36, until they did the G3 would return, with perhaps another production run to make sure that there is parts and such available since I am assuming that some of the pulled G3's would have been sold on the market. Of course, all this depends on the point of view that they got a limited production run of the G11, announced that it was the new official standard, and after a short time came to the conclusion that it wasn't such a great idea after all. If they never did adopt the G11, I see the G3 staying strong right up till the war: I figure that with the storm clouds on the horizon that they would ramp back on a totally new rifle and all that goes with it in order to prevent confusion in a war should it happen.

I personally think the G11 wouldn't have panned out terribly well, and that basically Germany would have been in a remarkable goat rodeo when the balloon went up, with:

1) G11 + Teething Problems in service with some units
2) G3 with most everyone else
3) Inherited NVA forces with AK-74s
4) Inherited NVA reserves still running AKMs
5) Some HK 33s and G41s available, but not enough

So four different calibers in service, with the likelihood of a fifth being added to the mix, and when 5.56mm is added you have two different platforms that don't use compatible magazines.

I don't think the G36 would exist in the traditional T2K timeline --> G11 never gets scrapped when the wall comes down --> HK never goes t*ts up, financially --> Royal Ordnance doesn't buy HK, and doesn't have them do the L85A2 tune up* --> HK interest in the AR-18 bolt design in lieu of roller lock never develops.

(* -- Whole other painful topic, obviously)

Though if people wanted G36s running around for cool points, I suppose they're not beyond the realm of the possible as a primary service weapon with the Bundeswehr (or one of them).

[Panther Al]

Delving into the the various weapons and timelines, yes, I agree, swap G36 for G41. Still, agree on the whole, the G11, while an outstanding system, was a little too far ahead of its time.

[Legbreaker]

On the other hand, the G11 may have eliminated the need for 9mmP submachineguns in general service and eventually "companion" weapons in the same calibre would have been developed (pistols, carbine/smgs, light machineguns, etc).
If reunification had not occurred, the G11 was sure to have been taken into service in my opinion - the requirements for such a weapon had been laid down 20 years earlier and the G11 filled all of them admirably. At the time, the G3 was the standard service rifle, the G41, G36, etc all still to come.

Therefore, the Germans would only have had 4.7mm and 7.62N to worry about, at least initially. The G41 would have been placed on the back burner while the G11 was issued to the front line units. Once that was mostly complete, then the G3 would have been removed (the whole process taking a couple of years in all likelihood). There would have been little need to supply front line units with 7.62 (belted, certainly, but loose rounds would only be needed for speciality weapons such as sniper rifles), and certainly no need for 5.56 at all.

It is my understanding that IRL, the AK variants used by the East Germans were not taken into service but replaced as soon as they possibly could be by G3s. I believe a large percentage of East German military personnel were also rendered unemployed by the reunification.

[Mohoender]

There's also the false rumour the .50 cal round is against the Geneva Convention when used against personnel. If there's a round that kills too quickly, you'd think this would have to be it.

To my knowledge, the only thing that actually stopped implementation of the G11 was money. The reunification left the government extremely short of funds - the G11 was simply a victim of this.

It is in no way a false rumor.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/CONVPRES?OpenView

However, as in every international treaty it can be open to interpretation. This is covered by the addition protocol I of 1977, under part III, section I article 35, title 2.

Part III. Methods and Means of Warfare Combatant and Prisoners-Of-War

Section I. Methods and Means of Warfare

Art 35. Basic rules

1. In any armed conflict, the right of the Parties to the conflict to choose methods or means of warfare is not unlimited.

2. It is prohibited to employ weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering.

3. It is prohibited to employ methods or means of warfare which are intended, or may be expected, to cause widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment.

About the G11, as much as I Ignore the final point about its development, I would not be surprised if German's authorities had taken article into consideration.

Art 36. New weapons

In the study, development, acquisition or adoption of a new weapon, means or method of warfare, a High Contracting Party is under an obligation to determine whether its employment would, in some or all circumstances, be prohibited by this Protocol or by any other rule of international law applicable to the High Contracting Party.

[Legbreaker]

It is in no way a false rumor.

2. It is prohibited to employ weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering.

I just don't see how that is relevant.
By application of that clause, a paper cut would be illegal. A .50 cal weapon is most certainly well within the spirit of the agreement, just like 5.56m 7.62, 20mm HE, 105 APDS, or even a tac nuke.

It does however refer to practises such as torture, use of weapons which inflict pain (as their main goal), etc.

This clause in no way prohibits the use of the .50 round, or the G11 and it's 4.7mm caseless round.

Development of the G11 and it's round also is not restricted by Article 36. If the weapon was designed, or intended to be designed for the infliction of pain as it's main function, then yes it would be illegal. The G11 is clearly not intended for the infliction of pain and suffering although as a secondary function this could occur.

[cro]

Thanks for this I find it very interesting. I have one further question concerning v2.2.

In my own timeline, when the Soviets cross into Germany, I have a number of former East German Army troopers joining with the Soviets and forming either the Karl Marx Korps or the Karl Marx Division (I like the korps better as it includes a number of air force units). What do you think of it?

Charming Idea. But Korps is a bloody big organisation (several 10.000 men). Even Division is extremly big. It would mean that nearly every former East German Army Trooper joined the Sovjets.
I suggest to build up a Karl Marx Korps but unsing "Korps" only as a title. Like the Freikorps (= Free Koprs) during the phase of revolution 1919/20 and so on. These Korps were regimental-size.


According to the G11. Well, everyting is said, isn't it?
But it was new to me, that there was a lot of interest outside Germany, even years later.
In my own timeline, we don't use the G11. Every German unit uses the G3. Maybe its because all of my former players were draftees in the late 90ies and they (and I) used the G3. Later on I (especially during my both rotos in AFG) used the G36 and it is a marvelous rifle.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

On the other hand, the G11 may have eliminated the need for 9mmP submachineguns in general service and eventually "companion" weapons in the same calibre would have been developed (pistols, carbine/smgs, light machineguns, etc).
If reunification had not occurred, the G11 was sure to have been taken into service in my opinion - the requirements for such a weapon had been laid down 20 years earlier and the G11 filled all of them admirably. At the time, the G3 was the standard service rifle, the G41, G36, etc all still to come.

Therefore, the Germans would only have had 4.7mm and 7.62N to worry about, at least initially. The G41 would have been placed on the back burner while the G11 was issued to the front line units. Once that was mostly complete, then the G3 would have been removed (the whole process taking a couple of years in all likelihood). There would have been little need to supply front line units with 7.62 (belted, certainly, but loose rounds would only be needed for speciality weapons such as sniper rifles), and certainly no need for 5.56 at all...

If the G11 was taken into service, then the G41 would have been too.
The G41 was developed from the HK33 with such differences as making use of the NATO STANAG magazine instead of the HK mag, a bolt hold open device and an M16 style dust cover for the ejection port. As such, it's basically just an upgraded HK33.

It was developed alongside the G11 as a companion piece because the G11 was never intended to be issued in such numbers that every West German soldier would have one. It was strictly for the combat arms while the G41 was to be issued to the support services (as well as those navy and air force units that needed a rifle). You're right that it would not have been a frontline weapon but it was definitely going to be issued to the West German forces.

The G41 was still on offer to the Bundeswehr until 1989 when it was rejected in favour of a more modern design (probably also had something to do with the fact that it was generally heavier than other 5.56mm rifles). That rejection lead to the development of the G36 now in service.

[Legbreaker]

By back burner I mean that rolling out the G11 would have taken precedence over the G41. The G41 would have only had to wait a year or three though while the G11 logitistical trail and retraining was sorted out.
Introduction of two weapons systems on such a wide scale would be very difficult if done concurrently with each other.

Here in Australia, the F88 Steyr AUG took several years to transition to, and that was just one weapon and a much smaller military than Germany.

[Abbott Shaull]

By back burner I mean that rolling out the G11 would have taken precedence over the G41. The G41 would have only had to wait a year or three though while the G11 logitistical trail and retraining was sorted out.
Introduction of two weapons systems on such a wide scale would be very difficult if done concurrently with each other.

Here in Australia, the F88 Steyr AUG took several years to transition to, and that was just one weapon and a much smaller military than Germany.

Even in the US Military it has taken a long time to replace many M16s rifles with the M4 Carbines. Granted that not all M16s were suppose to be replaced, but it still was on going process in after 9-11 that got sped up a tad bit.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

By back burner I mean that rolling out the G11 would have taken precedence over the G41. The G41 would have only had to wait a year or three though while the G11 logitistical trail and retraining was sorted out.
Introduction of two weapons systems on such a wide scale would be very difficult if done concurrently with each other.

Here in Australia, the F88 Steyr AUG took several years to transition to, and that was just one weapon and a much smaller military than Germany.

Ahh I gottcha now, my mistake, I originally thought you meant that the G41 would not have been issued at all.

[Mohoender]

I just don't see how that is relevant.
By application of that clause, a paper cut would be illegal. A .50 cal weapon is most certainly well within the spirit of the agreement, just like 5.56m 7.62, 20mm HE, 105 APDS, or even a tac nuke.



My statement was incomplete but I had no time this early morning (my morning ;)) to correct it.

That makes it relevant as a preliminary step. However, as in every international treaty/agreement, the application depends on pre-war agreement or winner application.

As such the Ottawa treaty (International Anti-Personnel Mine Ban Treaty) resulted in the fact that anti-personnal mines are considered by many as falling under that article (Countries such as USA, Russia, China, Israel, Egypt... didn't sign the treaty). The signing countries (among which you find Australia) ban themselves from using it and, in the eventuality of a war that they win, grant themselves the right to prosecute anyone for using them.

The best exemple was that of Nuremberg. As Nimitz pointed out that the US had carried an unrestricted submarine warfare of their own, Dönitz was not condemned on the ground of his breaches of the international law of submarine warfare. And that despite the fact that it was recognized as a crime by the La Haye treaty of 1907.

As an historian, I do condemn US attitude. As a man I'm outraged by the level of hypocrisis that you find there. If I had live then, I would have adopted both the position of US and Nimitz. Everything is a matter of time and timing with the thing always going down to politics.

As a matter of fact, Leg you are right because no treaty has ban the use of .50 so far (I don't know if some countries have done it individually). That doesn't make it a false rumor as well as it gives you the legal ground to go to court. However, I'm sure that those who made (or some of those reading) the treaty might have had paper sheets in mind as well.:D (This was what I wanted to point out, sorry if the lack of time had made me miss the point).

[HorseSoldier]

As such the Ottawa treaty (International Anti-Personnel Mine Ban Treaty) resulted in the fact that anti-personnal mines are considered by many as falling under that article (Countries such as USA, Russia, China, Israel, Egypt... didn't sign the treaty). The signing countries (among which you find Australia) ban themselves from using it and, in the eventuality of a war that they win, grant themselves the right to prosecute anyone for using them.

(SNIP)

As a matter of fact, Leg you are right because no treaty has ban the use of .50 so far (I don't know if some countries have done it individually). That doesn't make it a false rumor as well as it gives you the legal ground to go to court. However, I'm sure that those who made (or some of those reading) the treaty might have had paper sheets in mind as well.:D (This was what I wanted to point out, sorry if the lack of time had made me miss the point).

The US reserves the right to keep minefields between US troops and however many semi-starving North Korean troops are on the other side of that border, but the policy after the treaty went into effect is that we cannot even train to emplace anti-personnel mines unless stationed in South Korea.

As for the .50 cal being inhumane -- it's probably more humane than smaller weapons, given that a torso hit is going to be significantly more consistently lethal than a hit from a smaller caliber round (and even more so compared to artillery, grenades, etc.). You can't experience unnecessary suffering if you're dead.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah the proper emplacement of any type of mines would be for most troop on the job training.

As for the .50 cal being illegal I have to agree that being hit by one of those round would most like kill you. You can suffer too much after being dead, while with the 5.56mm NATO and 9mmP could take several direct hits to kill you.

[headquarters]

In the 1990s the interpretation we got ( this was deduced from official NATO legal positions by our Norwegian GHQ) was that the type of rounds used were the critical point.

.50 BMG ( FMJ rounds) were accepted, soft nose,multi purpose etc were not.

Those were applicable to material targets

When someone pointed out that lacing a soft armoured vehicle with .50 MP would mean subjecting crew and passengers to a pretty raw deal, the legal dept. guys kinda froze for a few seconds and the repeated the initial interpretation of the rules.

The ammo rules in the Genevea conventions are ignored by and large today.
The velocity of the 5.56 itself or the 5.45 means that the round could inflict damage on par with many outlawed rounds,such as soft nose lead rounds in other cals.

At least most armies use FMJ as a result of the rules ,meaning that there has come something tangible good out of the legislation.

So imho ( h= humble as always) the caliber is not essential, the round configuration is. I guess you can also argue that the efect of the round is also a factor - say a liquid core fmj round in a standard caliber that spins and yaws so that the wounds are greater and more terrible would be ilegal , but a 75 cal rifle with a solid fmj round could be legal.

[Mohoender]

In the 1990s the interpretation we got ( this was deduced from official NATO legal positions by our Norwegian GHQ) was that the type of rounds used were the critical point.

.50 BMG ( FMJ rounds) were accepted, soft nose,multi purpose etc were not.

Those were applicable to material targets



Make sense.

[Legbreaker]

That's my understanding of it also. It's not the weapon that's doing the killing or wounding (unless you're beating them over the head with it), it's the projectile.

:splat:

[HorseSoldier]

The ammo rules in the Genevea conventions are ignored by and large today.
The velocity of the 5.56 itself or the 5.45 means that the round could inflict damage on par with many outlawed rounds,such as soft nose lead rounds in other cals.

Honestly, any spitzer-type bullet will tumble when it transitions to a denser medium like flesh. This means they will tend to inflict more severe wounds than the round-nosed projectiles they replaced (which are pretty stable and don't typically tumble, just bore straight through). It also means that every new cartridge adopted since 1900 +/- a few years depending on the nation in question has been a violation of the spirit of international law.

What makes them legal in international law is that they were fielded because of greater range and accuracy -- the extra wounding being just a convenient side effect and not the intent of the round. This is why open tipped match sniper ammunition is also legal -- it is OTM format because it's horribly accurate compared to conventional ("open base match" being a descriptive, if silly, term) and the fact that it blows all to hell in tissue and fragments is just happy bonus. A jacketed hollow point pistol round is no more accurate than its FMJ equivalent, so it's format is specifically for increased lethality and that's bad.

(Whole thing is kind of silly, and is kind of ignored as was noted up thread, but I suppose on a big picture level it has discouraged people from going really off the rails in designing duty ammunition.)

Even in the US Military it has taken a long time to replace many M16s rifles with the M4 Carbines. Granted that not all M16s were suppose to be replaced, but it still was on going process in after 9-11 that got sped up a tad bit.

M1903 to M1 Garand and Carbine was a quicker switch and might be a better analogy for the situation Germany would have been looking at when the TW kicked off. I doubt they would have been able to implement a comprehensively effective small arms plan before the war went nuclear, but I'm guessing on the staff side of things they had one put together by about 1 Jan 97 and probably had factories going triple shifts trying to get weapons to the troops.

[Dog 6]

my first question is how many leo 3's would the Bundeswehr have and at what rate of production a year.

[HorseSoldier]

Probably none. I don't see the Bundeswehr going anywhere past Leo2A4, maybe Leo2A5 on some sort of accelerated timeline, in a realistic take on reconciling T2K development.

[Canadian Army]

Probably none. I don't see the Bundeswehr going anywhere past Leo2A4, maybe Leo2A5 on some sort of accelerated timeline, in a realistic take on reconciling T2K development.

What about the Leopard 2-140? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2#Leopard_2-140. I can see that going into production.

[Legbreaker]

I'm not convinced. The 120mm seems to be more than adequate to deal with most of the AFVs the Germans would face and I doubt introducing another type of ammo into the logistical train would help anyone.

Could be a few prototypes floating about in T2K though.

[cro]

I agree with horsesoldier.
I don't think that there would be a Leo 3. Afterall, there is only a Leo2A6.
And I don't think there is a Leo 2-140.
In the mid-90ies the Bundeswehr disbanded there tank-destroyer coys (Jaguar), because the weopon-system TOW was not better than the 120mm smoothbore.
The 120mm and its fire control system outclasses the TOW. And one round of 120mm is cheaper than a TOW missile.
Statistics say that every 1,4th shot is a first hit. So, every shot is a hit. Nice. :D

In my timeline we have a lot of 2A4 and a few 2A5s.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm not convinced. The 120mm seems to be more than adequate to deal with most of the AFVs the Germans would face and I doubt introducing another type of ammo into the logistical train would help anyone.

Could be a few prototypes floating about in T2K though.

That's why the 140mm, and the Russian 135mm and 152mm, haven't gone anywhere -- right now, the 120mm and 125mm are adequate for the modern battlefield, and no one sees the need to change them (along with an established production base...)

[pmulcahy11b]

I don't think that there would be a Leo 3. Afterall, there is only a Leo2A6.
And I don't think there is a Leo 2-140.

They're working on a Leopard 2A7, though I've seen few details as of yet. It seems to be a sort of "electric tank" version, like the M1A2 SEP.

The Leopard 2-140 exists only on the drawing board, and in one Photoshopped picture put out by Rheinmetall.

The "Leopard 3" also existed only on the drawing board, but the Leopard 2 with the casemated turret didn't look like the T2K Leopard 3. It looked more like a Leopard 2 with a large, flat turret that sort of looks like a squashed M1 turret.

[Panther Al]

The swiss mounted a 140 in one of their leo's, and while I have a pic of it floating about, I can't vouch too hard on if its not photoshopped, as the tube looks long as all hell and it appears to have a pepperpot muzzle break of some sort on it.

[Abbott Shaull]

You know for the NATO it seems the 120 mm did a fine job. Much like I am sure the Soviet 125mm probably would of done just as effective job too.

[natehale1971]

Sorry about not commenting earlier... but i've been so busy trying to get the layouts and new artwork drawn for the work i've been doing on The Morrow Project core rule book 4th Edition that i've not really had the time to keep up on the forums..

So please forgive me guys. But Germany in T2k has always been something that I've had fun playing around with (be it as having several of my characters being East or West German soldiers working with the Americans, or the campaign we played as East German soldiers who had been on the Far Eastern Front when the Coupe happened back home).

But there is one thing that I really felt needed to be changed about the first edition of the game...

That's why I have always played the first edition timeline with the Federal Republic of Germany and German Democratic Republic NOT unifying. Not only due to the logistical nightmares that would have come from such an action during wartime or that over the nearly fifty year cultural differences that had developed between the East & West Germans... but in an effort to keep the Soviets from using the 'Unified Germany = Imperialists Invaders' propaganda in the other Warsaw Pact states.

The DDR DNVA maintained its definitely Soviet style names and military organization during the war, it did slowly start to adopt BRD DBW designed and for the most part built weapons as the war progressed as their stockpiles of Soviet built and developed weapons were expended.
But also as the war rolled on, the East Germans started to work on the development of their own military hardware with the help of their Western Brothers... such as the state owned weapons arsenals partnering up with the West German manufacturers as H&K to produce replacements for the AK-47 and AK-74.

Thus you could have seen the H&K G36 being developed... but as a replacement for the dwindling numbers of the AK family of weapons in the East German arsenal.

I can't find anything on heavy weapon production for the DDR, if anyone knows anything... please contact me so i can get that so i can work that into my DDR and BRD country articles that I've been writing.

I have created a detailed DDR DNVA OOB that showed a fictional reorganization of the DNVA that happens during the early-1990s that would have happened during the same period of the Soviet Reorganization using the lessons they had learned watching how well the US forces did fighting against Iraq during Desert Storm. One of the biggest changes was the renumbering of divisions and regiments, and the addition of Guards units (the most elite and premier units composed of the most politically loyal troops).

In the articles I've been working on for the two German states. I've included descriptions of military orders & decorations and the like for some flavor text to expound upon the two different cultural identities, and of course the ways that the two where more alike than not... such as both states having instituted the Order of the Iron Cross during wartime, and their own versions of the Honor Cross.

But the DDR instituting the Order of the Red Eagle as one of their highest awards, and the BDR instituting the Order of the Black Eagle as their highest award!

I've been debating on drawing pictures of the uniforms, and digging up pictures of the types of camo patterns and the like to add to the articles.

So, when I get a chance to post my articles I'll start a new thread for each one, so i can get advice on improving them individually.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The G36 would never have been developed, it's a product of the end of the Cold War when Heckler & Koch were able to share information/techniques/designs with Royal Ordnance when RO bought HK. It uses design influences from the AR-18, influences which only came about due to HK's association with RO.
Without that specific event happening, the G36 would never have been thought of let alone developed and HK would have probably pushed for making the G41 it's main 5.56mm rifle.

[HorseSoldier]

That's why I have always played the first edition timeline with the Federal Republic of Germany and German Democratic Republic NOT unifying. Not only due to the logistical nightmares that would have come from such an action during wartime or that over the nearly fifty year cultural differences that had developed between the East & West Germans... but in an effort to keep the Soviets from using the 'Unified Germany = Imperialists Invaders' propaganda in the other Warsaw Pact states.

To each their own and all, but I personally have always found the way the Twilight War kicked off to be one of the cooler aspects of the Twilight War setting, since it makes for a much more gray and murky setting, morally speaking. Not just in terms of Germany reunification by force being murky in and of itself, but that most of NATO jumps on board a NATO initiated war against the Soviets and rest of the Warsaw Pact. Soviet propaganda will have a pretty big kernel of truth in it that it's fighting a defensive war, and the specter of German militarism, however much it's not a one for one stand in for 1939, does a lot to explain how and why the Poles and Czechoslovaks stay on board on the Soviet side of things.

But also as the war rolled on, the East Germans started to work on the development of their own military hardware with the help of their Western Brothers... such as the state owned weapons arsenals partnering up with the West German manufacturers as H&K to produce replacements for the AK-47 and AK-74.

Thus you could have seen the H&K G36 being developed... but as a replacement for the dwindling numbers of the AK family of weapons in the East German arsenal.

There's not going to be time to replace the NVA's small arms inventory before the nukes fly, not with the war going full tilt. I'd expect that all small arms factories on both sides of the former border are going triple shift turning out G41s, G11s, and MPiK-74s. Best case scenario would be a crash program to convert the 74s to 5.56mm, which would be a pretty easy conversion. (And even with that, I could still see the reunified Germans bringing in boatloads of M16s and C7s from the US and Canada to at least get a standardized caliber on the books.)

But, end of the day, the reunified Germany is just handed a logistical nightmare. I think they're more interesting playing that ball where it lies, too, rather than giving them a mulligan

Thus you could have seen the H&K G36 being developed... but as a replacement for the dwindling numbers of the AK family of weapons in the East German arsenal.

I agree with the other post that G36 just never exists -- HK had no experience with, or apparently interest in, the AR-18 they borrowed heavily from on the G36 before they did the L85 upgrade for the UK, which gets into counterfactual stuff for the Twilight War timeline.

The other thing is that disruption of petroleum production and worldwide commerce will be a show stopper for production of something like the G36. Germany could be building MPiK-74s even circa 2000, with the only thing that would need serious modification being the substitution of wood for plastic furniture.

[Abbott Shaull]

Honestly, I can see in v1 that the G11 production would soon be halted so as to produce more G41s to standardize rounds for the Germans and her NATO allies.

Also the former East German units will continue with their former Pact weapon and limited production would continue on to support these units.

Honestly one of the major problems with the entire war is that the Pact went against their tradition of taking weaken units and merging them. Or the fact that NATO units would have attachments and detachments to help each other. Granted during late 1998 and into the winter 1999-2000 as many units would of tried to be returned to their parent when possible, but there would still be several of them where moving the sub-units would of been more costly than leaving them with whatever unit they had ended up with. Even during the 2000 Offensive within the 3rd German Army there would of been several cross-attachments with each of the Corps and even III German Corps and IX US Corps may have done some of this between them for the current offensive.

[Legbreaker]

Why? The G11 in the V1 timeline was the main service rifle for the West Germans. The G41 was the supporting services rifle. Both production lines would have been in place and operating concurrently.

Standardisation was clearly NOT a priority for the Germans otherwise they wouldn't have even begun to consider the G11 and it's caseless ammo. Given that it was set to enter service in 1990-91, the Germans would have had 4-5 years to build up a war stockpile of ammo, plus whatever else they produced once production was ramped up in advance of hostilities. Until the production facilities were destroyed, probably by nukes in late 97 (although likely attacked conventionally numerous times prior to that), there seems little need for the Germans, with their separate logistical train to the US, British, etc, to conform.

Also, the G11 was developed because a soldier could carry more than twice the ammo as an M16 armed man for the same weight, had better accuracy, and was much more controllable - why throw that all away for the ability to share magazines with soldiers who are operating in a completely different area?

I agree that the East Germans would continue to use their pre-unification equipment (although perhaps with new uniforms and vehicle markings) - there's little doubt that the west would be totally unable to re-equip them all in just a few weeks or months (depending on the version timeline).

Granted it may not have been Pact doctrine to not combine depleted units, but that's the situation we're faced with in the game. To me it's quite simple to explain it - the units were in constant action in the beginning, under pressure all the time. The opportunity simply wasn't there to withdraw units form the line and reorganise them in any significant way. Later in the war, the logistical ability to shift large numbers of troops and equipment around had disappeared.

[Targan]

I agree with pretty much all of Leg's points above. In my campaigns G11s have been available for characters without too much trouble but ammo was very scarce.

[Legbreaker]

In the V1 timeline, ammo availability seems to be the only reason anyone wouldn't be using a G11. When you look at it, it's a brilliant weapon.

In V2, which mirrors reality a bit closer in the early years, the G11 is probably still available (roughly 1,000 were produced IRL with some finding their way into the military). Chances are though that you'd either have to be very lucky to find one, or be in an elite unit (and even then they'd be scarce). On the other hand, an entire unit in the rear might be equipped with them - ammo consumption being nowhere near that of a combat unit, some individuals may even still have a few rounds they were issued with at the beginning of the war!.

[B.T.]

Leg: I'm surprised. Why do you think, the G11 would be scarce even in German service?

In my campaign, I use the G11 as the standard firearm of German combat troops (In 1996 it was, most soldiers in 2000 once had a G11 but try to pick up weapons that work with an easier to find/trade ammo.). The other German troops are equipped with G3 or G41. Some units of the former NVA and western soldiers, who captured lots of them, use AKs.

I'm not sure, where your info stems from. Something I've overlooked all these years?

[Rainbow Six]

Purely from a V1 perspective, I totally agree with those that think that G11's themselves might be relatively easy to find but the ammunition will be very rare. I think the original V1 equipment list states that is the case.

Hence I would think most troops armed with G11's would have discarded them (at worst) or cached them (at best) in favour of weapons they can easily get ammo for.

[Legbreaker]

I think the G11 would be scarce in V2.x simply because reunification actually happened as in reality. The G11 in the world as we know it only had an extremely limited run of about 1,000.
With East Germany returning to the fold as it does in 2.x, the same issues would have arisen as they have IRL.

In V1 though I'm all for the G11 to have seen widespread issue, virtually replacing the G3 as was intended prior to 1989. In V1, Germany didn't reunify until the beginning of the war in 1996 which allows more than enough time and money to be spent on rearming the west with it. The only issue in V1 reducing the number of G11's in use is the availability of ammunition.

[Abbott Shaull]

I think the G11 would be scarce in V2.x simply because reunification actually happened as in reality. The G11 in the world as we know it only had an extremely limited run of about 1,000.
With East Germany returning to the fold as it does in 2.x, the same issues would have arisen as they have IRL.

In V1 though I'm all for the G11 to have seen widespread issue, virtually replacing the G3 as was intended prior to 1989. In V1, Germany didn't reunify until the beginning of the war in 1996 which allows more than enough time and money to be spent on rearming the west with it. The only issue in V1 reducing the number of G11's in use is the availability of ammunition.

Which one has to remember is part of the sticky points with NATO. They have tried to more or less to get everyone using the same calibre and types of rounds. When you are the only one using the one type of rounds, not many others can help you with your logistical problem of arming troops.

That and throw into real life as Poland and other Eastern Europe nations were absorbed into NATO and some before switch their rounds from the former Pact standard to NATO standard fairly quickly with all things considered. In many case the equipment inherited by the Germany Army from East Germany went on to help supply several Eastern Europe neighbors. Even the small arms were sold off relatively quickly to help make for efforts to get their forces using the same equipment. Of course, the reduction of forces helped out here too.

[Legbreaker]

Real life did indeed involve a number of different calibres, however we're talking about a game and the addition of only one calibre which is superior in almost every way to that used by the rest of Nato.

Supply issues there may have been, but there's almost no chance of German and English speaking soldiers serving shoulder to shoulder and having to share mags. Why? Because of the language barrier of course! A commander simply cannot bank on having even a small part of his troops able to communicate with each other, therefore they must plan to keep them as two (or more) separate operational units.

[B.T.]

In Germany the English language is taughed to all pupils. Off course, most Germans do not need so much of this later in their life, but in an environment and a situation like the Twilight War many Germans would train their English skills.

(By the way: I, from a personal point of view, think it's way easier to talk to someone in English, than to write in English!)

I don't think some kind of situation report or tactical briefing between English/American and German forces would work very good (In some cases it would, depending on the individual skills of the people being involved!), but begging for ammo or calling in indirect fire should work in most cases.

In my Twilight World it is not uncommon to have people from different countries serving together in a "new" unit - Germans in the 5th Inf. Div., Poles or Russians in a NATO unit or Americans as part of a Bundeswehr unit.

The German forces in the Twilight universe have a serious problem with their ammo: In each unit there would be at least 3 different kinds of ammo - 7,62 NATO; 9mm Para and 4,7 caseless or 5,56 NATO. If a unit is armed with a mix of G11 and G41/M16, these units would need 4 different kinds of ammo. If the units had AKs with them, the situation would be even worse!

[Legbreaker]

The multiple ammo is an issue in most armies. In Australia for example in the late 80s a Rifle section in the infantry with 9 men had 9mmP, 5.56mm, and 7.62mm, plus all the various heavier weapons including 40mmHEDP, M72s, grenades, and on occasion 81mm mortar rounds and 84mm Carl Gustav rounds.

The Germans having 7.62N, 4.7cls OR 5.56N and maybe 9mmP (for those rare individuals with pistols, or the handful with MP-5s) doesn't look to be much of an issue, especially if the 4.7mm pistol rumoured to have been in development was fielded. (naturally they'd still have the heavier ammo to carry and supply).

[James Langham]

Perhaps the best reason to include the G11 is to emphasize the way that technology is failing. Bear in mind by 1990 the G3s in service were often older than their users and reaching the end of their service life. Something needed doing (v2.2 notes the draw down of the German Army despite the Soviet threat - perhaps this freed up funding for the G11) The expansion in 1995/6 however will have resulted in a huge mix of weapons and the resulting logistics nightmare.

[Abbott Shaull]

Perhaps the best reason to include the G11 is to emphasize the way that technology is failing. Bear in mind by 1990 the G3s in service were often older than their users and reaching the end of their service life. Something needed doing (v2.2 notes the draw down of the German Army despite the Soviet threat - perhaps this freed up funding for the G11) The expansion in 1995/6 however will have resulted in a huge mix of weapons and the resulting logistics nightmare.

That was true for most units that still fielded the 7.62 on both sides at the time. In some cases in some units of the US the older M16s and Colt-15s could be older than their current users.