The what was they thinking thread

[Panther Al]

Bouncing around the internet you can find all sorts of weird things, but this one is up there as a winner for the "What was you thinking?" award in the firearms category.

Gentlemen, I bring to you, the .950 JDJ.

What more needs to be said about a rifle whose cartridge design starts with a 20mm cannon shell, and then necks it out?

A Rifle that could weigh between 80 to 100 pounds, 20 of which is the muzzlebrake. And that only drops the recoil to 200 foot pounds.

A round that has to be machined and weighs in at just over half a pound (Yes, Pound), runs you 40 bucks complete with case, and has stats like 2200 FPS and a muzzle enrgy north of 38 thousand pounds.

[kota1342000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcEvBwMKZ9s

Awesome! heehee

[Tegyrius]

This is what happens when you let someone design a cartridge on a drunken bet.

I'm almost ashamed to say this, but I wish I had a ballistic coefficient for it so I could run up a full Reflex damage table. At the muzzle the raw values are Dam 26/Pen x1 (adjusted for large-caliber crazy, it'd be Dam 19), but I suspect that's going to drop off quite rapidly over distance.

- C.

[Panther Al]

*hrms* Since it appears that the projectile itself are all handmade on a lathe out of bronze, you could argue any bullet design you want, so... *shrugs* Figure a round with the same profile and coefficient as a .50BMG?

I'm *very* curious to what the V2.2 statline for this thing is to be honest. :)

[Legbreaker]

I can see the Bulk and Recoil values being through the roof!

[pmulcahy11b]

Get me more info and I'll do the stats just for fun! Though I would think it would be similar to a 20mm antimateriel rifle.

[Panther Al]

SSK in Ohio makes the rifle and the round, and from what I have seen its a custom job to order for each, at 8k+ each. I used what info they gave to try to run it through whats in IWW and the dmg line was through the roof, so I think I was mucking something up. For more exact stats, I am not sure what they would be or where they could be found. As far as recoil goes, everything I read says this is not a rifle you shoot with it tucked into your shoulder, they recommend a lead sled.

[Legbreaker]

Which bumps the Bulk up even higher!
Don't even DREAM about hitting a moving target. In fact, you might even have trouble hitting a stationary target since the weapon is so damn big and heavy, minute adjustments to the aim have to be done with a sledge hammer!

[mikeo80]

Now that's crazy!!!!!!

Although....

In a time travel scenario....

That thing could be set up for a kill zone for a T-Rex.

Dead carcass out in the open somewhere to entice Mr. T......

This monster set up and scoped for the distance to target....

BOOOOOOOMMMMMMM :rocketwho

T-Rex burgers for dinner....

Yummy :p

[HorseSoldier]

Similar bad idea explained . . .

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/ACU-Testing.jpg

[Legbreaker]

On the topic of questionable decisions/orders:

"Stopping an unarmoured and unarmed vehicle in the middle of a nighttime ambush kill zone to dismount infantry when the road ahead, and behind are totally clear. At least 10 small arms, including at least one automatic weapon are spraying lead into the kill zone at the time."

Discuss.

[Targan]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "The what were they thinking thread"?

[Snake Eyes]

Only if you is referring to a version of English spoke by foreigners.

[dragoon500ly]

On the topic of questionable decisions/orders:

"Stopping an unarmoured and unarmed vehicle in the middle of a nighttime ambush kill zone to dismount infantry when the road ahead, and behind are totally clear. At least 10 small arms, including at least one automatic weapon are spraying lead into the kill zone at the time."

Discuss.

Hmmmmm...perhaps its the feeling of invincibility that the new Army Advanced Combat Uniform gives?

[dragoon500ly]

The Vietnam-era LRRP consisted of six men, when these people went into the jungle on recon, they got to carry:

2 PRC-25 backpack radios fitted with short antennae, and carrying a long antennae and two handsets (1 spare).

Spare radio batteries

1 Starlight Scope

4 Strobe Lights

6 Trip Flares

4 Star Clusters

4 Parachute Flares

4 VS-17 marker panels

4 WP hand grenades

4 CS hand grenades

4 M-72 LAAWs

2 WP rifle grenades with crimped ballistic cartridges

2 pairs 6x30 binoculars

2 Medic Bags

1,500 rounds of 7.62mm linked

120 40mm HE shells

10 40mm Buckshot shells

6 40mm Parachute Flare shells

15 20-round magazines for the XM-21

30 30-round magazines for each M-16

The individials would be armed with:

Team Leader with M-16
Assistant Team Leader with M-79
Radio Telephone Operator with M-16
Scout with XM-21 sniper rifle with scope
Scout with M-16
Scout with M-60

Each man would also carry;
8 quarts of water (at least 4 1qt, and 2 2dt canteens)

2 Smoke hand grenades

2 Compasses

1 M-17A1 chemical protective mask

2 Signal mirrors

2 Battle dressings

6 M-26 or M-33 Frag hand grenades

2 Claymore mines

1 Ka-Bar knife

1 Weapons Cleaning Kit

1 Wrist Watch

1 Poncho

50 Salt Tablets

1 bottle Insect repellant

50m Parachute suspension line

1 Pen Flare

1 map of area

3-5 days LRRP rations

Carabiner with 25m climbing rope

The minimum weight for a 48-hour patrol was 70 pounds per man and loads of up to 100 pounds were not uncommon.

What fun it must have been to sneak through the jungle with 100lbs of gear, trying not to leave a trail or break any branches...and trying not to make any noise...:rolleyes:

[Legbreaker]

Done that. Can't say it's much fun, but as long as the unit commander isn't in a huge hurry and appreciates that in jungle everything takes a lot longer, it's not a major problem.
Loads of 50kgs (110lbs) aren't all that uncommon in the infantry.

[Targan]

The Vietnam-era LRRP consisted of six men, when these people went into the jungle on recon, they got to carry:
[snip]
120 40mm HE shells

10 40mm Buckshot shells

6 40mm Parachute Flare shells
[snip]


That's an impressive number of 40mm grenades! Effective munitions though so I can understand why so many.

I have a question - If the XM-21 was fielded from the second half of 1969 onwards but LRRP teams were operating for at least several years before that, what were LRRP teams using as a sniper rifle in early 1969 and before?

[pmulcahy11b]

That's an impressive number of 40mm grenades! Effective munitions though so I can understand why so many.

I have a question - If the XM-21 was fielded from the second half of 1969 onwards but LRRP teams were operating for at least several years before that, what were LRRP teams using as a sniper rifle in early 1969 and before?

Usually M1s and accurized Remington 700s, or National Match M14s.

[dragoon500ly]

Done that. Can't say it's much fun, but as long as the unit commander isn't in a huge hurry and appreciates that in jungle everything takes a lot longer, it's not a major problem.
Loads of 50kgs (110lbs) aren't all that uncommon in the infantry.

Been there and done that...burned the tee-shirt!

LOL

Last time I had to hump a ruck, our CO was trying for a record....most number of men that dropped out on a speed march...and humping a mortar base plate on top of alldecrap.....really SUCKS!!!!!

[dragoon500ly]

Usually M1s and accurized Remington 700s, or National Match M14s.

In the early days of 'Nam...there were Springfield M1903s complete with scope...that makes two World Wars, a Police Action and whatever the hell Vietnam was supposed to be, not a bad record!

[HorseSoldier]

That's an impressive number of 40mm grenades! Effective munitions though so I can understand why so many.

A lot of the LRRP/Ranger guys carried an XM177 and an M79 chopped down to pistol size instead of just a 79.

There seems to have been a lot of debate back then about whether lighter/stealthier teams were preferable to the heavy six man LRRP teams.

[Abbott Shaull]

One of the cases where you brought more than you thought you would need to overcome any contact and breakaway. On the other hand, it was close to being overburden so breaking away from said contact would be dicey. So what better way to lighten the load than rain down shells on them....

[helbent4]

Hmmmmm...perhaps its the feeling of invincibility that the new Army Advanced Combat Uniform gives?

Lee,

Legbreaker is looking for some kind of support, perhaps indirectly, for a position he's taking in a current RPG in an ongoing situation.

I don't think it's fair for to open this situation up for comment, especially in this manner.

Tony

[Mahatatain]

On the topic of questionable decisions/orders:

"Stopping an unarmoured and unarmed vehicle in the middle of a nighttime ambush kill zone to dismount infantry when the road ahead, and behind are totally clear. At least 10 small arms, including at least one automatic weapon are spraying lead into the kill zone at the time."

Discuss.
I'm interested in what people think about this as I am playing in the same game as Leg and am one of the players who agree totally with stopping. Leg hasn't really outlined the full context of the situation however - the PCs are traveling with a VIP and the VIP's vehicle has been forced to stop. My assumption is that if we continue on past the ambush then by the time we then dismount and return the VIP will certainly be dead.

I've also just read the book "Generation Kill" and in there the SOP seems to be that you attempt to drive through an ambush unless one vehicle is stopped and if that happens everyone stops and attempts to fight off the enemy while you extract the people from the stopped vehicle (assuming that it won't run any more) and then continue on your way.

Any constructive comments welcome.

[Legbreaker]

I'm not going to comment one way or the other on this myself as it is a current situation my character has expressed views on IC.
It is something that I think those with actual experience and training could help out with, especially with advice to those who don't.

I will expand on the information given and say that the VIP's vehicle has stopped in a ditch, presumably out of the path of incoming fire and no longer under immediate threat. Also, said VIP has only been known to 17 out of 18 characters (both PC and NPC) for a matter of an hour or two, and the party is under no obligation to protect them (although long term it's probably in their best interests).

Surrounding terrain is open fields with the nearest significant cover (a treeline) approximately 6-700 metres away, in the direction of the enemy.

What it all boils down to I suppose is do vehicles stop, or push through.

[Mahatatain]

I will expand on the information given and say that the VIP's vehicle has stopped in a ditch, presumably out of the path of incoming fire and no longer under immediate threat.
That is a major assumption!

Also, said VIP has only been known to 17 out of 18 characters (both PC and NPC) for a matter of an hour or two, and the party is under no obligation to protect them (although long term it's probably in their best interests).

I think that you've answered your own question there!

[Legbreaker]

No, not at all.
If a vehicle is in a ditch, and below normal ground level, one could assume that bullets fired towards it are likely to go over the top, or at least not hit the lower part of the vehicle. Provided of course the laws of physics didn't change while I wasn't looking... ;)

And separate to the disabled vehicle, the question remains - does another vehicle(s) stop/slow and disgorge infantry into an active ambush killzone, or drive on out of immediate danger and then deal with the ambush?

Note also there is no backup or reaction force. The only people capable of doing anything are in the truck.

[HorseSoldier]

I'm interested in what people think about this as I am playing in the same game as Leg and am one of the players who agree totally with stopping. Leg hasn't really outlined the full context of the situation however - the PCs are traveling with a VIP and the VIP's vehicle has been forced to stop. My assumption is that if we continue on past the ambush then by the time we then dismount and return the VIP will certainly be dead.

The magic words are bump plan, as in the plan you have as an SOP for a disabled vehicle (and rehearsed a lot) before you ever leave the wire, or its equivalent.

Typical features of bump plans would include a dedicated bump vehicle that has extra seating/space for quickly loading people from another disabled vehicle. Having tow straps pre-rigged on vehicles (ideally so that drivers and/or passengers can hook them up without even getting out of the vehicle) is a nice thing to have.

I've also just read the book "Generation Kill" and in there the SOP seems to be that you attempt to drive through an ambush unless one vehicle is stopped and if that happens everyone stops and attempts to fight off the enemy while you extract the people from the stopped vehicle (assuming that it won't run any more) and then continue on your way.

That was the no-combat-experience SOP someone in DOD dreamed up before people started doing it for real with regular consistency.

Anyone you leave in a kill zone will (hence the term) be killed. Either while they're sitting on the X, or in an internet video later where they're wearing an orange jumpsuit and everyone else is dressed in ninja masks. It's all situational, but there are better ways to approach that situation. Having everyone who is able lay down suppressive fire while the bump vehicle recovers the stranded folks would be a pretty common SOP post-Iraq Invasion.

Video linked below is of some PMCs getting IED'ed in southern Iraq. You'll notice that the vehicle starts slowing down after the hit, but then starts regaining speed late in the video -- that's the vehicle to their rear pushing it out of the kill zone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEJdMDEHMDM

[dragoon500ly]

A lot of the LRRP/Ranger guys carried an XM177 and an M79 chopped down to pistol size instead of just a 79.

There seems to have been a lot of debate back then about whether lighter/stealthier teams were preferable to the heavy six man LRRP teams.

There was an arguement in the Infantry Journal about the ideal size for a recon patrol, being one man. The argument was that a single man would leave less trace, be able to hide in more places....

[dragoon500ly]

Lee,

Legbreaker is looking for some kind of support, perhaps indirectly, for a position he's taking in a current RPG in an ongoing situation.

I don't think it's fair for to open this situation up for comment, especially in this manner.

Tony

Alrighty then! Tony, truely have no idea what you are talking about...

[headquarters]

Lee,

Legbreaker is looking for some kind of support, perhaps indirectly, for a position he's taking in a current RPG in an ongoing situation.

I don't think it's fair for to open this situation up for comment, especially in this manner.

Tony

when it gets people engaged.

I guess another question parallell to the straight up tactical consideration will be - "what would my character do?" stopping might take alot of resolve - fighting of an enemy even more so. But a seasoned char might see the best tactical approach straight of and take it. Whereas another approach would be that he player sees the best tactical solutions but plays his characters responses differently due to the PCs limitations. Either way - it sounds like the GM has gotten the group set up for a good and intense scenario.

Mind you - I dont know the game setting ,the PCs background or the sound tactical solution to the tacnundrum at hand.

so all in my humble opinion.

All I can say , I guess is :game on!

enjoy !

[helbent4]

when it gets people engaged.


HQ,

There will be time to examine the situation engage people when the engagement is over. Please understand there are and have been concurrent discussions raging IC and OOC about this, as it is literally being played out now.

So yes, rest assured we will "game on" as the situation progresses. And in my opinion no, this isn't the place to hash things out, at least while it is happening.

Tony

[HorseSoldier]

There was an arguement in the Infantry Journal about the ideal size for a recon patrol, being one man. The argument was that a single man would leave less trace, be able to hide in more places....

From what I've read (Ron Reid Daly's Top Secret War, if I remember right) there was one guy in the Selous Scouts who did extended LRRPs either alone or maybe, at most, with one guy he'd take with him. He had the same argument -- if the bad guys cut his trail they'd never think a single guy was anything friendly or enemy -- but it sounded like even among the Selous Scouts he was considered a bit touched in the head.

[Legbreaker]

And in my opinion no, this isn't the place to hash things out, at least while it is happening.

Note that the initial reaction is done and dusted. There's no going back.
Therefore, I'd think now is a good time to start talking about it as the discussion certainly can't change anything.

IC certain characters did certain actions. They all now have to live, or die by their decisions, whatever they may have been.

[Targan]

Rowr. A pbp game airing its dirty laundry in public. :sawink2: I like it. Very soap opera. :D

[helbent4]

Rowr. A pbp game airing its dirty laundry in public. :sawink2: I like it. Very soap opera. :D

Targan,

Bingo.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

All I'm seeing is an interesting (and necessary) tactical discussion....

Now, can we please get on with actually discussing the topic?

[helbent4]

All I'm seeing is an interesting (and necessary) tactical discussion....

Now, can we please get on with actually discussing the topic?

Leg,

It still comes across as a little cheesy, to air dirty laundry like this. Or rather, part of the circumstances surrounding said metaphorical laundry.

Cheesy, sir, I say! Fromage!

Tony

[dragoon500ly]

From what I've read (Ron Reid Daly's Top Secret War, if I remember right) there was one guy in the Selous Scouts who did extended LRRPs either alone or maybe, at most, with one guy he'd take with him. He had the same argument -- if the bad guys cut his trail they'd never think a single guy was anything friendly or enemy -- but it sounded like even among the Selous Scouts he was considered a bit touched in the head.

I've seen this argument in a few sources. In one way, it makes a lot of sense, a conter-recon patrol would be looking for a small group of men, one person would stand an excellent chance of being ignored...but maybe I'm old school, a patrol of 4-men would be the best for a recon.

[copeab]

Rowr. A pbp game airing its dirty laundry in public. :sawink2: I like it. Very soap opera. :D

I'm waiting to find out who is really having who's baby!

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm waiting to find out who is really having who's baby!

And the appearance of the evil twin!

[headquarters]

HQ,

There will be time to examine the situation engage people when the engagement is over. Please understand there are and have been concurrent discussions raging IC and OOC about this, as it is literally being played out now.

So yes, rest assured we will "game on" as the situation progresses. And in my opinion no, this isn't the place to hash things out, at least while it is happening.

Tony

no talking in the cards so to speak.

I agree then
and as I said earlier : game on!

[helbent4]

And the appearance of the evil twin!

Paul,

In fact, I have an evil twin brother, John. He's a computer game designer (he's worked for Ubisoft, Codemasters, Radical/Vivendi and EA). He's waiting in the wings! God, we even played T2K back in the 80's...

Tony

[copeab]

And the appearance of the evil twin!

This raises the disturbing possibility that Major Po might have an evil twin ...

[Abbott Shaull]

This raises the disturbing possibility that Major Po might have an evil twin ...

I thought Major Po was the evil twin...lol

[dragoon500ly]

I thought Major Po was the evil twin...lol

Dear Gawd....triplets?!?!?!?!

And next week on "As the Stomach Churns"....

[Targan]

This raises the disturbing possibility that Major Po might have an evil twin ...

Po was an only child. That actually explains quite a lot.

[Legbreaker]

Child? I thought he was grown in a vat?

[HorseSoldier]

By reputation I'd have thought he was a chimera composed of the primary fetus and parts of the other two in the womb he'd eaten or absorbed.

[Legbreaker]

Mad science experiment gone horribly wrong, or terribly right! :O

[Abbott Shaull]

So he was the evil twin...or triplet...