U.S. Marines on the Baltic: Task Force Inchon

[Raellus]

What follows is the macro backstory for a classic T2K campaign that I'd like to run someday. I thought it might be of interest to some of you, especially my take on 3rd German Army's Summer 2000 offensive, its sudden cancellation, and the general withdrawal that followed.

I've done my best to conform to canon, matching up the dates of key events in my narrative with the dates given in the original T2K's Death of A Division. The major deviation from canon is the participation of Soviet 9th Guards Tank Army in the PACT counteroffensive against U.S. XI Corps. In canon [v1.0 Soviet Vehicle Guide], the 9th GTA is placed in western Belorussia in the summer of 2000. In my mind, however, it's appearance in NW Poland does much to explain the failure of German 3rd Amry's summer offensive and the subsequent operational and strategic situation in NW Poland as it stands in the [canon] winter of 2000.

The section on Operation Limerick sets up a classic, Escape from Kalisz style scenario, only this one substitutes the small Baltic city of Elblag for Kalisz, and a [reinforced battalion-sized] Marine Task Force for the 5th ID.

This is a first draft, and constructive feedback is welcome. I especially need input on the composition of Task Force Inchon (particularly the engineer and maintenance units). I'd prefer that you not use this thread to comment on the probabiltiy of 9th GTA's inclusion, as it's central to my vision of events.

I'll begin with a very short missive on the state of the T2K U.S. Marine Corps in the year 2000.


The U.S. Marine Corps in 2000

The U.S. Marine Corps of the year 2000 is a mere shadow of its near legendary pre-war self. Although most current Marine officers and NCOs are members of the veteran "Old Breed"- pre-war volunteers or stateside-trained, early war draftees- many of them began the war as REMFs, working crucial but largely non-combat jobs "in the rear with the gear", or serving in the now nearly non-existent Marine aviation units. Over one third of all other junior enlisted Marine infantry are beached seamen (or, less commonly, grounded airmen), hastily trained in Europe and injected into Marine combat units as late-war replacements. Despite its weakened state, the Marine Corps of 2000 somehow manages to maintain its espirit-de-corps and continues to be a formidable fighting force.

-Raellus

[Raellus]

German 3rd Army's Summer 2000 Offensive- XI Corps

In mid June of 2000, U.S. XI Corps, subordinated to German 3rd Army, launched an ambitious offensive against Pact forces in northwestern Poland. The offensive had two primary objectives objectives, one of which being the isolation and destruction of Polish 1st Army. To achieve this end, U.S. 50th Armored and 8th Mechanized Infantry divisions would attack east towards Gdansk from their cantonments around Kozsalin, while the bulk of 2nd Marine Division would conduct an amphibious assault just east of Gdansk. From its beachheads east of Gdansk, 2nd MarDiv's main force would attack west and link up with 50th AD and 8th ID to complete the encirclement of Polish 1st Army.

With the U.S. 116th ACR screening their southern flank, 50th Armored and 2nd Marines, along with the Canadian 4th Mechanized Brigade, would then begin reducing the Polish 1st Army pocket, while 8th Mechanized would continue east on a deep penetration raid along the Baltic coast towards Kaliningrad, USSR. A [reinforced battalion] Marine task force (Task Force Inchon) would land further east near Elblag and secure the main highway bridge over the Elblag canal and the small city's major highway interchange in advance of the arrival of the Eight Ball Division.

Meanwhile, the U.S. 5th Mechanized Infantry division would launch its own deep raid from its jumping-off area near Chojnice, thrusting south towards Torun to wreak havoc in Soviet 1st Western Front's rear areas, while German III Corps attacked the PACT forces frontally from its cantonments around Stargard Sczcecinski.

German 3rd Army's summer offensive made stunning early progress, with the successful isolation of Polish 1st Army*, the nearly bloodless capture of Elblag, and deep, nearly unopposed drives into PACT territory by both 5th and 8th Mechanized Infantry divisions. This success was not to last. The rails started to come off in mid July with the unexpected appearance of the gasoline-fueled Soviet 4th Guards Army in the 5th ID's area of operations near Lodz. The 5th ID's dramatic final destruction by elements of the 4th GTA during the Battle of Kalisz on July 17th coincided with the encirclement of Task Force Inchon in Elblag, and strong attacks in the Gdansk region by the Soviet 9th Guards Tank Army. An attack by surviving elements of the Soviet Baltic Fleet (by summer 2000, a fleet in name only) managed to destory or damage several of the amphibious assault vessels supporting the 2nd MarDiv, including a crippling torpedo strike on the U.S. Tarawa. These sudden, strong attacks pushed the U.S. 2nd MarDiv and 5oth AD west and severed their direct links with U.S. 8th ID and the dwindling Marine Task Force doggedly holding Elblag.

The unexpected appearance of two powerful, gasoline-fueled Soviet Guards Tank Armies and the sharp reversals that they delivered prompted the premature cessation of 3rd German Army's summer offensive and sparked a general withdrawal back to its starting positions. Early reports indicated that U.S. 5th ID had been completely destroyed and the incommunicado 8th ID initially thought to be so, while several smaller XI Corps units were cut off behind PACT lines and left to fight for their lives.

*An underwater commando attack by U.S. Navy SEALs and German KSK frogmen succeeded in neutralizing the remains of the Polish Navy at its moorings in Nowy Gdynia harbor.

[Raellus]

Operation Limerick

Task force Inchon was landed northwest of Elblag during the morning of June 22nd by two former East German navy Frosch I class landing ships and the Type 520 Barbe class ULC Flunder (Flounder), assisted by a pair of armed minesweepers (one German, one American) modified to carry troops. Naval gunfire support was provided the U.S.N. Knox class frigate, Truett, the West German Hamburg/Type 101 class guided-missile destroyer, Bayern, and another pair of German minesweepers optimized for use as light gunboats/sub-chasers. The landing beaches were scouted in advance by elements of 1st Platoon, A Company, 2nd Force Recon, which also conducted terrain and force-oriented [distant] reconnaissance patrols several kilometers inland of the landing areas. They identified several minefields on the beaches and marked them for removal by follow up UDTs, but encountered no significant enemy ground forces in the landing area or on the road to Elblag.

The landing itself was unopposed and the majority of the task force was safely ashore and heading towards its primary objectives by noon. A Company, 2nd LAR/LAI Battalion ("Wolfpack"), was tasked with the coup-de-main of seizing the highway bridge over the Elblag canal and the highway interchange on the city's southeastern outskirts. This they completed without a hitch. The tiny, poorly armed Elblag militia, led by a former ZOMO officer, decided not to resist. Anecdotal evidence and recently declassified documents strongly suggest that the militia commander may have been on the payroll of the DIA prior to Operation Limerick.

After a long road march, the rifle companies of 2nd Battalion ("Warlords"), 2nd Marine Regiment ("Tarawa") linked up with A Company, 2nd LAI and began fanning out to seize their objectives in and around Elblag. 1st Platoon, A Company, 2nd Force Recon, now operating in a direct action capacity, seized a couple of key government and military sites in the city.

As night fell on June 22nd, Task Force Inchon began to prepare its defenses and push out clearing patrols while it settled in to await the arrival of the U.S. 8th Mechanized Infantry Division ("8-Ball"). Strong enemy counterattacks from the vicinity of Malbork were expected within 24 hours of the landing, but aside from near-daily probes by light Polish cavalry units starting on June 23rd, significant enemy attacks failed to materialize. The lead elements of 8th ID arrived at the Elblag crossroads on July 2nd, a couple of days behind schedule. The main body of the division began arriving in dribs and drabs shortly thereafter. By July 4th, the bulk of the 8th ID had encamped on the outskirts of Elblag. For three more days, the 8th ID remained at Elblag, awaiting stragglers, performing much-needed vehicle maintenance, and brewing fuel for the next phase of its advance. On July 7th, the 8-Ball division decamped and struck out east, leaving behind several unrepaired vehicles and a few of its more seriously wounded.

Soviet Attack and Encirclement

On July 11th, Task Force Inchon patrols began to encounter Soviet light armored reconnaissance forces pushing towards Elblag from the southeast. Initial long-range encounters with these enemy units favored the LAV-25s of the Wolfpack. Soon, however Marine, pickets were confronted by Soviet armor and infantry in numbers that no one at Division or Corps headquarters had expected.

On July 13th, Task Force Inchon's forward outposts had been pushed back to the highway interchange on the southeastern outskirts the city by heavy, persistent, combined-arms attacks. The highway interchange was defended by the dug-in A Company, 2nd LAR/LAI Battalion, Foxtrot Company, 2nd Battalion, and an anti-tank section of the Battalion's weapons company. The ensuing battle for the crossroads was a brutal affair, lasting the rest of the afternoon, during which both sides suffered heavy casualties. The sheer weight of the Soviet attacks, especially the marked superiority of their artillery and armored firepower, soon decided the contest, but the attackers paid dearly for their prize. After nightfall, the battered remnants of the Marine defenders, having lost nearly all of their LAVs at the crossroads, withdrew to their fall-back positions in the southern outskirts of the city proper, while strong Soviet mechanized units rushed east and northeast to cut the Marine in Elblag off from escape and/or outside assistance. Field interrogations of enemy soldiers captured during the battle for the crossroads revealed that Task Force Inchon was facing the Soviet 3rd Motor Rifle Division (MRD). SIGINT indicated that elements of the Soviet 1st Guards Motor Rifle Division (GMRD) and 138rd MRD were also involved in the developing counteroffensive, pressing on through the newly-captured crossroads and heading west to meet the rearguard of the U.S. 2nd Marine Division around Gdansk. None of these Red Army units were supposed to be anywhere near Elblag (at last accounting, Soviet 9th GTA was reported to be in western Belorussia). Ground truth belied bad intelligence. Task Force Inchon had just met the Soviet 9th Guards Tank Army. The short and bloody siege of Elblag had begun.

[Raellus]

Task Force Inchon

2nd Battalion ("Warlords"), 2nd Marine Regiment ("Tarawa")- E, F, G, & Weapons Companies

DRP Platoon, Delta Company, 2nd Recon Battalion, Division Recon OR 1st

Platoon, A Company, 2nd Force Recon

A Company, 2nd LAR/LAI Battalion ("Wolfpack")

Platoon of combat engineers

Vehicle maintenance platoon

[Abbott Shaull]

Interesting ground work, that could be used to play characters of the 2nd Marine Division or part of explaining where the 8th Mechanized and how it passed through the region.

[Legbreaker]

Very good and expands nicely on canon.
Two small points to consider though. Elblag was levelled in the war, probably by nukes due to it's speciality in heavy machinery and position as a transportation hub. This isn't to say it wouldn't still have been important to the 8th ID as a crossing point, but nobody would want to hang around in the ruins very long (the Marines could set up somewhere in the outskirts rather than heart of the city).

Given the damage to the city, it might be argued that a bridging unit is attached to the marines? This would allow the 8th to still cross (as they had to in this area given there's a swamp to the south and Pact units to the other side of that), while also minimising the need for significant defensive forces to be stationed in the city (bridges downed). Something like truck carried Bailey bridges would suffice I'd think, removing the need to add more armoured vehicles to the mix (M-60 AVLB for example). The bridge components could even have been fabricated by XI Corp engineers in the months leading up to the operation for just that purpose (if there weren't any already on hand).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey_bridge

[Raellus]

Elblag was levelled in the war, probably by nukes due to it's speciality in heavy machinery and position as a transportation hub.

Hm. It does show the city as being rubbled on the Poland map in the BYB. Damn. I should have checked that FIRST. :mad::o

Is it on the nuclear hit list?

If not, I think the scenario is still viable. The city will be badly damaged by earlier conventional fighting, but certain areas will still be standing and some rebuilding will have taken place in the last couple of years. It seems like a good spot to live in that it has easy access to the sea (fish) and is surrounded by agricultural land.

I was thinking about adding a bridging unit. If the city's been smashed up, it likely that the bridge over the Elblag canal is either down or damaged so much so that heavy MBTs like the M1 wouldn't be able to cross. That would also give Corps more motivation to seize the remains of the city and repair/replace the bridge in order to speed the passage of 8th ID.

I will add B Company Bridge, 6th Engineer Support Battalion to the OOB.

[Adm.Lee]

I like it.

[Legbreaker]

The V1 map (in the original box) shows the city as nothing but rubble and the name in (brackets). I take this to mean it's a pile of rubble and a city in name only.
Many settlements on the map are marked as being in ruins. These settlements were destroyed in the nuclear exchange or were devastated by the conventional fighting back and forth across Poland. These ruins are seldom, if ever, totally uninhabited. Small groups of a dozen or so people may still be combing the ruins, living off (increasingly scarce) stocks of canned food discovered in the ruins. Bands of marauders may be camped in the ruins. In major cities, small communities may scrape a meager subsistence by cultivating the former municipal parks. Almost any sort of encounter is possible in the ruins of a city.
My thoughts are the city was indeed nuked (it's position and industry alone are reason enough), but is lightly inhabited. The situation is likely to be similar to that in Warsaw, although on a smaller scale (maybe a few hundred scavengers total scattered through the ruins, all roads and railways destroyed / covered by rubble, etc).

You may not need to add B Coy to the OOB. The combat engineers plus mechanics could potentially supply enough manpower, with a few more warm bodies drawn from the combat units. The combat engineers should have the technical knowledge, and would probably have trained specifically for the task beforehand. Regardless, there'd be little need for a specialist engineer unit to hang about once the bridge(s) is complete.

With the destruction of the city, and blockage of roads, it might be worth adding a bulldozer to the OOB, operated by the Combat Engineers. A civilian model, scrounged up before the operation would do, and not add another armoured vehicle to the mix. It would also be useful in constructing defensive positions, while the fuel held out and after the necessary roads were cleared.

[Raellus]

I like it.

Thanks, Admiral. I'm glad that you like it.

My thoughts are the city was indeed nuked (it's position and industry alone are reason enough), but is lightly inhabited. The situation is likely to be similar to that in Warsaw, although on a smaller scale (maybe a few hundred scavengers total scattered through the ruins, all roads and railways destroyed / covered by rubble, etc).

You very well may be right. I'm going to choose to follow another tack, though. The city is small enough that conventional fighting may have had much the same effect. I figure NATO and PACT armies must have passed through Elblag at least a couple of times, pretty well wrecking it in the process.

As for engineers vs. a dedicated bridging unit, you're probably right there as well. There probably aren't many dedicating bridging units in 2000. Most such units were probably folded into regular combat engineer units, which must have suffered greater proportional attrition. With the manpower shortages of 2000, it makes more sense to keep generalist units that can do more with less instead of specialized units that have very limited operational capabilities.

[Legbreaker]

Nukes seem more likely as we know NATO implemented a "Scorched Earth" policy in their 1997 retreat unsing tactical nukes and demolition nukes (Częstochowa).
Much quicker, effective and economical than conventional means of destruction, they seem pefect for the task of denying the bridges and industry to the advancing Pact forces. The timing is certainly right for it too.

[atiff]

You very well may be right. I'm going to choose to follow another tack, though. The city is small enough that conventional fighting may have had much the same effect. I figure NATO and PACT armies must have passed through Elblag at least a couple of times, pretty well wrecking it in the process.

Not sure that it's true that the city has bee fought over in the Twilight War. The NATO offensives went south through Warsaw, and I seem to remember reading somewhere about Western forces "attempting to cross the Wisla at (some point well north-west of Warsaw)" but being stopped by PACT. I previously worked up some maps for the various offensives, and what I concluded was that NE Poland was one of the only areas not driven over by conventional forces.

Also - while Elblag may have been a nuclear target, so was Krakow; but there are still quite a lot of people there. While these numbers have nothing to do with canon, in the population figures I worked out for Poland, I have Elblag city with around 8,000 inhabitants and Elblag County with around 28,000 (pre-war pop's around 127,000 and 56,000 respectively).

[Legbreaker]

It seems inconceivable that Elblag would not have been fought over, or that Nato were not even in the area.
It's an important hub in and of itself, and denying the Baltic coast to the Pact would have to be high on the list of Nato priorities.

Krakow on the other hand is much less of a transportation hub and therefore sparing it from nuclear destruction is quite possible. Note however that newer parts of the city (those outside the walls) have suffered significant destruction - obviously not nuke in nature, so it's a near certainty conventional fighting occurred.

[Dog 6]

Very good work Raellus.

[Rainbow Six]

Raellus, an interesting and well thought out backstory...nice piece of work and would certainly make for a great campaign setting...

[Legbreaker]

Something else I just remembered. When I was researching the German III Army offensive, I worked out that the Marines would have to land in a number of locations. I think it averaged out that they wouldn't be able to mass more than about 200 men per location to get the needed coverage.

200 men in T2K, backed with a handful of AFVs and engineers is a serious force, especially given time to dig in amongst the ruins.

[Raellus]

@Dog 6 and Rainbow 6: Thanks guys.

@Atiff: Thanks for sharing your work. A population of 8000 would still work for my vision of Elblag.

Assuming that Elblag was in fact nuked, I think it's safe to say that it was a relatively small airburst type of device. Perhaps it detonated a little off target, sparing the city some destruction. Perhaps it was aimed at the port/industrial facilities at the city's north end, resulting in less damage to the road nets to the south (or vice-versa)

@Leg: Although Krakow proper did not get hit, the industrial suburb right next door-Nowy Huta, IIRC (they're basically conjoined)- did.

Canon clearly states that the Marines were making multiple landings along the Baltic coast. My Operation Limerick is but one of them (the easternmost, in fact). I envision the main effort being closer to the ruins of Gdansk, at the SE neck of Polish 1st Army's coastal pocket.

[Legbreaker]

That all works for me and I'd assumed Limerick was just part of the bigger picture. Looking at canon materials, you'd almost HAVE to have a force of some kind in the Elblag area to allow the 8th through. They may not stay there long once the 8th pass through, but they had to at least have a temporary presence.
I'd forgotten about Nowy Huta, however I believe there's damage all over Krakow while the inner city is still in reasonable condition. That to me indicates conventional warfare.

[boogiedowndonovan]

keep up the good work Rae

[Abbott Shaull]

That was part of the problem that the 2nd US Marine Division and then later the IX Corps ran into. In the rundown conditions that all Divisions found themselves in, and they were still expected to make multiple landings and hold until the 8th Mechanized Division passed through.

The thing that has always left me confuse was where the hell the 3rd German Army objective was. I mean the 5th Mechanized Division was heading into Central Poland, while the rest of the 3rd German Army seemed to hang close to the Baltic Coast.

Yeah the 2nd Marine Division would of been looking to consolidating big time as the last units of the 8th Mechanized Division passed through their AOs. In the end due to circumstance that members of the 2nd Marine Division would continued with the 8th Mechanized and last stragglers of the that Division would be follow the 2nd Marine as they collapse back to the IX Corps main area.

[Legbreaker]

It's my belief the Germans were held up by the Pact counteroffensive. More pressure than expected was exerted upon the defending units to the south, requiring a temporary retasking of the Germans to hold the line.
Also there's my proposal that the Marines suffered from a catastrophic loss of fuel reserves, necessitating resupply by land from the German stocks. This would hamstring the Germans and keep them basically in place (which probably wouldn't matter too much if the decision to abandon the offensive had already been made and both the 5th and 8th written off as lost - even before the 5th's destruction).

As it became clear that the Baltic coastline could not be held, I'm sure a few stragglers from the 8th would have been absorbed into the Marines. Likewise, it's possible some of the more advanced Marine units may have followed on after the 8th - the 8th being a closer unit with less hostile forces in the way.

Task Force Inchon, or whatever remnants remain after Rae's scenario would be ideal candidates for joining the 8th.

[Raellus]

I just thought of a title for my campaign, or at least for the macro-backstory that precedes it. Get ready, here it is...

A Beach Too Far :o

[Legbreaker]

I can picture the sunglasses and beach umbrellas already. :cool:

[Abbott Shaull]

Wonder if they brought their mountain bikes with them...lol

[Legbreaker]

Wonder if they brought their mountain bikes with them...lol

I don't think so, they'd get stuck in the sand. Beach towels, sunscreen and plenty of beer on the other hand... :cool:

[Abbott Shaull]

I don't think so, they'd get stuck in the sand. Beach towels, sunscreen and plenty of beer on the other hand... :cool:

You know it partly joking, remember in WWII when a UK unit had brought bikes overs on D-Day. The only difference when they get off the beach it may help keep some units mobile while allowing them to use the precious cargo space of vehicle they have for transporting gear...

[Legbreaker]

I can remember one exercise involving assault boats where a number of people showed up with fishing gear....

[Abbott Shaull]

I can remember one exercise involving assault boats where a number of people showed up with fishing gear....

Just toss a hand grenade over the side....lol Not advisable to cook it off either...

[Raellus]

I might equip one of the Marine infantry companies with bikes. Bikes would help them get from the beaches to the canal bridge and highway interchanges more quickly. I'm sure that the LAI Company would appreciate that. AFAIK, this would be a historic first for the USMC.

[Legbreaker]

Would bikes be seen as useful by higher command though given the soft ground in the area? I'm not against the idea as such, but it might be something one or more of the units landing to the west, on firmer ground, might be better having?

[Legbreaker]

I was a little bored and started looking through the archive and found this: http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2098
Could be useful?

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah I remember it was somewhere in the archives...thanks for finding it.

[Raellus]

I was a little bored and started looking through the archive and found this: http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2098
Could be useful?

Thanks, Leg.

There are also some foreign personnel with Task Force Inchon. I figure that there is at least one German naval liaison officer, as well as one German naval gunnery spotter. All battalion-sized units operating in Poland would have at least a couple of Polish guide/translators. The Marine recon unit might include a German (KSK or Kampfschwimmer) or a Brit (RM/SBS) or a Dane (Frogman Corps). By 2000, most of the Marine rifle companies would likely contain a foreigner or two as well.

[Abbott Shaull]

Thanks, Leg.

There are also some foreign personnel with Task Force Inchon. I figure that there is at least one German naval liaison officer, as well as one German naval gunnery spotter. All battalion-sized units operating in Poland would have at least a couple of Polish guide/translators. The Marine recon unit might include a German (KSK or Kampfschwimmer) or a Brit (RM/SBS) or a Dane (Frogman Corps). By 2000, most of the Marine rifle companies would likely contain a foreigner or two as well.

Probably more than few...

[Adm.Lee]

As I mentioned in the "Ray of Hope II" thread, I suddenly shifted from a Kalisz game to this one. Late last night, I reviewed Raellus' original draft, and I have some new suggestions. Consider me a playtester.

1. The Elblag area looks a lot like a river delta to me, so perhaps the bigger goal of TF Inchon should be more than one bridge. The highway junction south of town seems less important as an objective to me. The Elblag River and Canal, the Nogat River, and the Wisla river bridges are all important to the 8th Division's ride to the sunrise. I'd send at least a company each to garrison those, and attach some more of a Seabee battalion to make sure all of the bridges are still tank-worthy.

2. In the backstory, maybe one or more of these bridges had been downed, and the Seabees were bringing ferries or bridging gear upriver from the landings to cross that river.

3. The LAV company and one of the rifle companies on bikes might be making an initial overland dash to the westernmost of the bridges, since they will need to rout the Polish cavalry from there. Then the LAVs can motor back to the SE to take on the 3rd MRD when it appears.

4. I note that this area is part of old Prussia, there are certainly some German families still among the survivors. Perhaps there can be some aid from locals hinted at?

5. Getting out of here seems pretty important, given that 9th Guards Army still may have 2 divisions following the 3rd MRD. Are they en route to engage the XI Corps, or are they detouring south to drive off the Germans following XI Corps?

6. I think some words on how often one might find a boat on one of the rivers.

[Legbreaker]

Have to keep in mind the 2nd Marines had a pretty large area to cover - Gdansk to Elblag. Perhaps after assigning the necessary units to other locations further westward only enough strength was left for one bridge.
Will need more thought....

[Raellus]

I am currently GM'ing an unconventional (more colaborative story-telling with a boat-load of puppetable NPCs) PbP based on my TF Inchon scenario.

It is centered around a Marine rifle company (G-Coy, 2-2 Marines). They call themselves "Ghost" company instead of Golf since it sounds a lot cooler. There is, of course, a double meaning there as well. Here is what we've done so far.

http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=47303&date=1339696734

ATM, the company is fighting off a "regiment" of the Soviet 3rd MRD. They're very close to being cut off from the rest of the TF. The rest of 9th GTA is pushing west to cross the canal bridge on its way to the main body of 2nd MarDiv near Gdansk.

The canal bridges were the main objective of the TF. Once those were captured/repaired, the mission became holding them. The highway interchange became important later, once the decision to hold the city was made. When the lead elements of the 9th GTA showed up, the interchange became a natural chokepoint/buffer zone to defend. The LAVs and battalion AT assets defended it valiantly but could not cope with the Soviets' marked firepower advantages.

In my macro scenario, Elblag was "captured" without much of a fight (the local militia had been bought off by the DIA prior to the landings) and held, without much incident for several days. The 8th MID passed through on its way east and, a couple of days after it's trailing elements had departed, the Soviets started to show up in strength. It was all down hill from there. In keeping with the backstory for the Kalisz scenario, no one at Corps/Divison intel anticipated a Soviet offensive/counteroffensive in the AO.

[Adm.Lee]

Have to keep in mind the 2nd Marines had a pretty large area to cover - Gdansk to Elblag. Perhaps after assigning the necessary units to other locations further westward only enough strength was left for one bridge.
Will need more thought....

If they made a bunch of landings, it's likely that most of the division was able to rejoin XI Corps once the 8th rolled through. TF Inchon's too far out, and the Poles have closed in behind them. These are the biggest of the rivers that I see on the map
My opinion, anyway.

Raellus, that RPOL campaign looks neat.

[Webstral]

Some Polish Marines might well have joined up with the USMC operating in the Baltic. We might also see Marines and/or commandos from Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands, and England. Once the inevitable Soviet nuke hits Stockholm, we might even see some Swedish volunteers fighting with the USMC in the Baltic. Wouldn't that be interesting?

[Legbreaker]

Of course the Polish are supposed to be members of the Warsaw Pact and fighting against the US Marines. As of the 1st of July 2000, only a handful of Poles have switched sides, and the marines aren't amongst them.

[Webstral]

The various Polish Free Legions are troops fighting for the Allies. It's hard to know how many Polish EPW were picked up in 1997. It's hard to say how many individual Poles or small Polish units allowed themselves to be captured or defected outright. The opportunity for many thousands of Polish troops to be captured certainly exists. We know that NATO units often include soldiers of the former Warsaw Pact.

[oldschoolgm]

I really like what you have written Raellus on this. I've been looking over this part of the T2K for some time now and much of my ideas coincide with what you've written.

Several things come to my mind of this and some of it has already been expressed by others. According to the books, the 2nd Div. has a good number of men and vehicles in July of 2000. The US Vehicle Guide then states that by November they have almost no vehicles and have increased in their numbers.

One source on this forum, where I can't remember, mentioned that this area around Elblarg is being where the Polish Cavalry is horse bound. Given the lack of fuel due to the sinking of the transport ship, thanks Leg, this mobility by the Polish cavalry would present some interesting difficulties for the marines.

Another thought that crossed my mind, especially if we are talking about securing avenues of transportation, is that your scenario sounds an aweful lot like an amphibious version of 'The Bridge Too Far,' and/or Operation Market Garden. In many ways this lines up with my thinking and planning for this area.

Again, thanks for sharing all of this, you've really got my mind turning now.

[Raellus]

Again, thanks for sharing all of this, you've really got my mind turning now.

No problem, Old School. I'm really pleased that you like it.

Another thought that crossed my mind, especially if we are talking about securing avenues of transportation, is that your scenario sounds an aweful lot like an amphibious version of 'The Bridge Too Far,' and/or Operation Market Garden. In many ways this lines up with my thinking and planning for this area.

In fact, I call my campaign "A Beach Too Far" for precisely the reasons you mention.

[Raellus]

Of course the Polish are supposed to be members of the Warsaw Pact and fighting against the US Marines. As of the 1st of July 2000, only a handful of Poles have switched sides, and the marines aren't amongst them.

Certainly not en toto, but there's nothing saying that a couple dozen Polish Marines or so haven't turned coats and joined the Leathernecks.

Considering the light rioting that went on earlier this week in Poland when the home country played Russia in the Euros, it's clear that even twenty years after the fall of the Iron Curtain, there's still a lot of bad blood between Poles and Russians.

[Legbreaker]

Certainly not en toto, but there's nothing saying that a couple dozen Polish Marines or so haven't turned coats and joined the Leathernecks.
I agree some Poles may be found in evidence, but whole units of greater than a cobbled together Company is extremely unlikely for a number of reasons.
Firstly, we have no evidence of Polish Marines defecting. This isn't to say none did, just that no unit did. Also, it's quite possible some of the recent additions to the US Marines would have been given at least some training, if only to familiarise them with US doctrines and techniques.
Secondly, Poland as a country has a much longer standing "disagreement" with Germany. Throughout several centuries, Poland has been invaded, split up, portioned out, traded and the people generally given little say in their own well-being and interests. Half of Poland even speaks German in preference to Polish because of this relative lack of national history.
Thirdly, Germany, supported by Nato (which as we know includes the US) are the aggressors in all versions of the game. Germany invaded Poland again in 1996. The USSR were one of the only countries in the world which stood shoulder to shoulder with them right from the beginning even though they were heavily involved in a war with another superpower, China at the time.
Since the Pact counter offensive in 1997, Nato has been kept out of Poland allowing both the USSR and loyal Polish governments (what's left of them anyway) virtually free reign to spread their own propaganda. The Soviets might not be the nicest of neighbours, but at least they're helping keep out the western invaders.
Fourthly, Nato instigated a scorched earth policy when they were withdrawing in late 1997 using everything from a lit match right up to and including nuclear weapons. Yes, the USSR also used nukes, however they've had three years to convince the Poles that a) it was the only way and b) Nato are responsible for the vast majority of them.

Given those (and other) factors, my guess is those in the higher echelons of the US 2nd Marines would have been very, very keen to keep Polish troops well away from the more critical areas of the 2000 Offensive, Elblag being one of those locations. This isn't to say no Poles would have been there, but you can be sure they'd have had to prove their loyalty to the west many many times, and still be in small numbers. Most likely that handful of Poles would still only be included as guides and possibly interpreters and kept as far from the task force HQ (and the sensitive information it contained) as possible.

Considering the light rioting that went on earlier this week in Poland when the home country played Russia in the Euros, it's clear that even twenty years after the fall of the Iron Curtain, there's still a lot of bad blood between Poles and Russians.

Polish football "fans" have been developing a rightly deserved reputation for violence for a few years now. Many of them are more of a problem than the more well known British football hooligans of previous generations. There are two football teams in Krakow. Their "supporters" are the worst of the lot and bloodshed between them is commonplace. It's not unknown for murders to occur almost weekly just because somebody wanders into the wrong part of town wearing the wrong colour.

Therefore, if the Poles are that violent to each other in the same city, how well are they going to take somebody from another country!? :o

[Adm.Lee]

The various Polish Free Legions are troops fighting for the Allies. It's hard to know how many Polish EPW were picked up in 1997. It's hard to say how many individual Poles or small Polish units allowed themselves to be captured or defected outright. The opportunity for many thousands of Polish troops to be captured certainly exists. We know that NATO units often include soldiers of the former Warsaw Pact.

Legbreaker:
This isn't to say no Poles would have been there, but you can be sure they'd have had to prove their loyalty to the west many many times, and still be in small numbers. Most likely that handful of Poles would still only be included as guides and possibly interpreters and kept as far from the task force HQ (and the sensitive information it contained) as possible.

I still like the use of the WW2 Polish government-in-exile making itself the core of the Polish Free Congress, and working to set up guides & translators from volunteers from '97, including PWs and civilians. I agree that not much more than platoons might be formed (which would be a disappointment to all concerned), largely from anti-German/anti-invader sentiment. That said, I think there would be a strong effort to set up a spy & guerrilla network within Poland, with varying levels of success/loyalty. THAT'S something I'd like to explore in another campaign. (The one I'm running now is dominated by 13-year-olds, and I don't expect them to follow me into a le Carre-style house of mirrors.)

oldschoolgm:
One source on this forum, where I can't remember, mentioned that this area around Elblag is being where the Polish Cavalry is horse bound. Given the lack of fuel due to the sinking of the transport ship, thanks Leg, this mobility by the Polish cavalry would present some interesting difficulties for the marines.

That's something that I expect this current game to discover very shortly. They've got two vehicles, but they'll need to stop to brew & tinker, and those horse troopers won't.

[Raellus]

Secondly, Poland as a country has a much longer standing "disagreement" with Germany. Throughout several centuries, Poland has been invaded, split up, portioned out, traded and the people generally given little say in their own well-being and interests. Half of Poland even speaks German in preference to Polish because of this relative lack of national history.

You're missing/ommitting a couple of very key points, Leg.

Poland's uncivil relationship with Russia is nearly as long and just as contentious. Russia/Ukraine has been claiming/ruling large portions of Poland for centuries- it's not just a Cold War issue. In the more recent past, before WWII, there were two major camps in the Polish government and military- those who felt Germany was the greater threat and those who felt Russia (USSR) was worse. Many rightly realized that both neighbors were enemies in waiting. Those folks turned out to be dead right (literally). Poland, however, didn't have the military resources to counter both threats and they knew this. It was a very difficult position to be in. No matter which way the Poles turned, there was clear and present danger lurking right next door.

During the Cold War, there were Polish protests against de facto Soviet occupation. They weren't good buddies, even though they were "allies".

The recent rioting wasn't just random "hooliganism" and it wasn't just directed against "fans of another country"- it was specifically directed against Russian fans conducting a Russia Day march through a Polish host city. Why such a march was even allowed on Polish soil is somewhat baffling, but some Polish citizens decided to do something about it themselves and Polish riot police had to be called in to stop the violence. Fact of the matter is, there is still a lot of bad blood between Poles and Russians.

http://espnfc.com/us/en/news/1102063/polish-police-stand-ready-trouble.html

I do agree with your point that since NATO was the aggressor and brought the war to Poland, that the scales of Polish anger and hatred would probably have tipped more against Germany.

On the other hand, if the Soviets treated their Polish allies as canon fodder during WWIII, some of the leadership and men of those units might decide that it would be less risky to fight against the Soviets than for them.

[simonmark6]

I have several Polish friends and acquaintances from various parts of my life. I lived next door to a Polish family whose Grandfather lived with them and had was a veteran of the World War. I had friends in University from Poland and now my cleaner in school is Polish (I'm teaching her English) and I have taught several Poles in school over the last ten years.

I've brought up the opinions that Poles have about Germans and Russians on several occasions and all the people I have spoken to all agree that the Poles hate the Russians more than they do the Germans. In fact, Old Mr. Dubrowski told me a joke about a Polish unit in the last days of fighting.

Their officer said, "We're surrounded with the Germans on the left and the Russians on the right. Which should we attack first?"

The Senior NCO replied, "We attack the Germans, Sir, we always conduct business before pleasure."

This was confirmed by my University friends who had lived through Communism and were just seeing freedom, granted they were probably the most Pro-West of their generation, but they resented the East more than the Germans.

More recently I've been able to speak with a wider range of people from academics to blue collar workers and they all hate the Russians more than the Germans. Blata, my cleaner, put it best: she said that the Poles didn't really understand the German mind set and treat them like a force of nature more to be endured rather than resented; the Russians are fellow Slavs and it is more like an on-going family feud. It may be put aside temporarily but eventually you go back to the feud with renewed vigour.

Now, that doesn't mean that the Poles would be deserting en mass, especially as everybody took a massive dump on them during the war but it does probably explain the situation in the game where groups of Western troops get a less-than-hostile reception in many parts of the country.

As for the Russians having three years to convince the Poles that it was all the West's fault, another Pole told me they have a saying, "How can you tell a Russian is lying? His mouth is moving and words are coming out."

Does that mean that there would be whole units of defected Polish Marines in the US roster? I doubt it: the Polish Marines are an elite unit still under the command of the Polish Government (pro-Soviet, true, but still "the Government"), I can see small numbers defecting (enough for flavour at least), but the majority are going to hold together for now especially as existing material suggests they've been held in reserve and may not have the feeling that some faceless bureaucrat is frittering their lives away in a pointless war in the way that most defecting units seem to have been treated.

[Legbreaker]

As for the Russians having three years to convince the Poles that it was all the West's fault, another Pole told me they have a saying, "How can you tell a Russian is lying? His mouth is moving and words are coming out."

Which is exactly why it wouldn't be the Russians doing the talking - they'd get loyal Poles, Czechs, and whoever else they could drag in to be the mouthpieces.
Propaganda also doesn't have to be verbal. A few posters stuck up on trees here and there, newspaper reports and just about any other form of communication (right up to smoke signals!) could and probably would be used.
They're not new to the game. They know what they're up against and how best to go about their work. Will they be 100% successful? Highly doubtful, but they will have an important impact.
Meanwhile, Nato, not being there on the ground where it counts, isn't going to make a lot of headway with the hearts and minds campaign.

[Adm.Lee]

Propaganda also doesn't have to be verbal. A few posters stuck up on trees here and there, newspaper reports and just about any other form of communication (right up to smoke signals!) could and probably would be used.
They're not new to the game. They know what they're up against and how best to go about their work. Will they be 100% successful? Highly doubtful, but they will have an important impact.
Meanwhile, Nato, not being there on the ground where it counts, isn't going to make a lot of headway with the hearts and minds campaign.

Very important, the Soviets will have had 40+ years of peacetime and 3+ years of war to sink their message in. My vision of the 1997 NATO invasion of Poland has lots of Poles, individually, welcoming the Americans and British (tolerating the Germans at best) forces, hundreds if not thousands joining the Polish forces in exile or volunteering as translators and the like.

BUT when the Soviets push NATO back to the Oder in the autumn, and the nukes are used by both sides, nearly all of whatever goodwill the NATO/anti-Soviet forces had built up would have disappeared. When NATO doesn't come back in '98 or '99, there's darn few opportunities to stoke it up again. I still hold to a failed Polish attempt to organize mass defections as a keystone to planning the summer '00 offensive, and this is a piece of that.

[Raellus]

But those wartime NATO-free years of Soviet occupation also give the Soviets plenty of time to alienate their hosts. The Soviets weren't the best of guests during peacetime, and their track record in Eastern Europe from '39-45 was pretty terrible- it wasn't just the Germans that suffered as the Red Tide pushed west to Berlin.

With most of the nation reduced to rubble, I think that Polish attitudes towards foreign troops would include a lot of local variation. If the nearby Soviet garrison was well-behaved and helpful, the local Poles would likely be very pro-Soviet. If the Polish [coummunist] government garrison one town over was callous and predatory, the locals may lean more towards NATO. If NATO troops looted and raped on their last trip through... and so on and so forth. The list goes on.

I'm sure that by 2000 a lot of Poles would just be sick and tired of every foreigner trespassing on Polish soil.

I haven't had a chance yet to address local Polish civilian attitudes towards either side for my Elblag campaign- at least not IG. In the backstory I was working on, there was some established bad blood between the Elblag Poles and the Soviets because of the way Polish refugees were treated by the people of Kaliningrad earlier in the war. Also, NATO troops passing through the region were generally much better behaved than their Red Army counterparts. And lastly, the Red Army tended not to be very careful on where they placed their considerable artillery assets. All of this combined to make the Elblag civilians a little more sympathetic towards NATO.

[oldschoolgm]

Something I came across lately may be worth thinking about. According the to UK sourcebook (v. 1), it's states that the British 1st Armored Division did move through the Baltic Coast area early in the war. This could be part of the reason Elblarg lays in ruins.

Secondly as I've been reading over some of the city descriptions from the modules, there seems to be a trend for the cities and towns to be more pro-western than pro-soviet. I would imagine that the tendency of the Polish attitudes to lean more pro-western even in the Baltic regions as well.

My assumption, due to lack of anything canonical regarding this, is that the Marines will absorb some local Polish militia and army regulars, they will also pick up a fair amount of allied regulars from other units that are apart of the offensive and not terribly distant from the Marine front lines. And it also wouldn't surprise me if they didn't absorb some Soviet defectors as well. (And how appropriate would it be that they may be GRU or KGB moles?) Either way I think we would not be too far from wrong in saying that in general terms the Poles lean more pro-west in the summer of 2k.

[Legbreaker]

On the other hand soldiers of any nationality are always worth making friends with when they're camped next door to you....

[GDWFan]

Is it just me or does leg make every thread a labor to read? I mean instead of moving the idea forward and sharing info, posters are forced to argue every point against leg one at time. the constant angry canon spouting devils advocate act gets so old, kills interesting threads and chases away good members. Am I the only one?

[Targan]

Very important, the Soviets will have had 40+ years of peacetime and 3+ years of war to sink their message in. My vision of the 1997 NATO invasion of Poland has lots of Poles, individually, welcoming the Americans and British (tolerating the Germans at best) forces, hundreds if not thousands joining the Polish forces in exile or volunteering as translators and the like.

BUT when the Soviets push NATO back to the Oder in the autumn, and the nukes are used by both sides, nearly all of whatever goodwill the NATO/anti-Soviet forces had built up would have disappeared. When NATO doesn't come back in '98 or '99, there's darn few opportunities to stoke it up again. I still hold to a failed Polish attempt to organize mass defections as a keystone to planning the summer '00 offensive, and this is a piece of that.

With most of the nation reduced to rubble, I think that Polish attitudes towards foreign troops would include a lot of local variation. If the nearby Soviet garrison was well-behaved and helpful, the local Poles would likely be very pro-Soviet. If the Polish [coummunist] government garrison one town over was callous and predatory, the locals may lean more towards NATO. If NATO troops looted and raped on their last trip through... and so on and so forth. The list goes on.

I'm sure that by 2000 a lot of Poles would just be sick and tired of every foreigner trespassing on Polish soil.
I agree with Adm Lee and Raellus' takes on this. I think by 2000 most Poles would have pretty negative attitudes to all foreign troops on their soil. The attitudes of individual Poles would vary, obviously, but as whole I suspect they would "hate everyone else equally".

GDW Fan and Keg, I don't think this thread is at the point where it requires mod intervention. We're having a spirited discussion, yes, but at this stage that appears to be stimulating further discussion, not discouraging it. That said, let's try to keep things cordial, eh?

[Legbreaker]

GDW Fan and Keg, ...

Keg? KEG!?
I resemble that comment! Well, ok, maybe not now I've lost 10 kgs. :p

[Targan]

Keg? KEG!?
I resemble that comment! Well, ok, maybe not now I've lost 10 kgs. :p

Oops. QWERTY keyboard, K right next to L, you know how it is :o

[Adm.Lee]

Something I came across lately may be worth thinking about. According the to UK sourcebook (v. 1), it's states that the British 1st Armored Division did move through the Baltic Coast area early in the war. This could be part of the reason Elblarg lays in ruins.

Well, given that the historical British Cold War forces were based in northern Germany, that makes sense. I'd be more than willing to believe that the British Army of the Rhine had NATO's left flank in 1997 and onward.

[oldschoolgm]

I went back and reread the info from the UK sourcebook and found this on page 8, under the year 1997:

<<On 2 April 2, NATO launched Operation Advent Crown. The
German Second Army drove up the Baltic coast, and the German
Third Army advanced along the Oder River. The German First
Army, to which 1st Corps was attached, was ordered to drive
through central Poland. Led by 1st Armoured Division, 1st Corps
broke through the Polish forces on the Oder on the 24th. On 4 May,
the division entered Poznan, and the corps split into two columns,
with 1st and 2nd divisions continuing east, while the rest of the
corps headed southeast. On 11 May, the 4th Armoured Division
took Kalisz, encountering only scattered opposition; on 17 May, it
reached Lodz, which fell on the 25th. By the end of May, the two
columns linked up on the outskirts of Warsaw—the corps was
ordered to take the city.>>

The British BOAR I Corps is lead by the 1st Armored Division according the the books OOB, but there is also a glaring contradiction in the following chapters. Read the following:

<<In mid-July, the Italians began to enter southern Germany, and
NATO forces moved to oppose them—primarily the British 1st and
2nd armoured divisions.>>

<<As August arrived, BAOR was forced to switch to the defensive.
Soviet forces were attempting to relieve Warsaw, and NATO forces
to the north and south of BAOR's theater were conducting mobile
defensive withdrawals. On 15 September, the Soviet 7th Guards
Tank Army broke through to Warsaw. First Corps began a fierce
withdrawal action in a desperate attempt to stop the Soviets, but
it was too heavily outnumbered and was pushed back. By the end
of September, NATO began to use tactical nuclear weapons to
stop the Soviets The Soviets replied by using their own nuclear
weapons.>>

The official canon really screws up here because in roughly a months time they are trying to say that the 1st Armored goes from North of Warsaw to Southern Germany and then back to North of Warsaw. I see the 1st Armored staying North of Warsaw and some other unit joining the 2nd Armored Division going to handle the Italians.

Of Note; The German 1st Army of which I Corps of the BOAR is attached seems to have stayed in the region between the Baltic Coast and Warsaw through much of 1997. Elblarg was probably destroyed in the nuclear exchange when the Soviets pushed the Allies out of Poland late in the year.

Food for thought and discussion! ;)

[Rainbow Six]

The British BOAR I Corps is lead by the 1st Armored Division according the the books OOB, but there is also a glaring contradiction in the following chapters. Read the following:

Food for thought and discussion! ;)

If you read on, the contradiction actually gets worse. From page 47 of the SGUK:

EAST (2ND ARMOURED) DIVISION
The division was formed in the summer of 1996 and arrived in
Germany on 15 October 1996. It crossed the interGerman frontier
on 10 December 1996 and was in combat by 12 December 1996.
The 2nd fought hard in eastern Germany, where it repulsed an
attack by the Soviet 20th Guards Army.
In July 1997, the division was sent south, along with the rest of
I Corps, to fight the Italians.

That quote suggests that the entire I Corps was transferred to southern Germany in July 1997.

I'd say the most likely compromise to try and follow canon would be to shift the 1st and 2nd Armoured Divisions to southern Germany, whilst leaving the 3rd and 4th Armoured Divisions in Poland.

[Webstral]

Do we need to convene a conclave of cardinals to explain how the apparent problem with the source material is really a problem with the inability of the lay person to understand the complexities involved?

[oldschoolgm]

Rofl... that would be funny Webstral

The important part for me in this material is that Elblag was probably destroyed in 1997 during the fighting in Northern Poland either when the German Army first swept through the area, or most likely (at least this is what I believe) when the German Army was pushed back into Germany. This would at least give some background for those of us who are examining and beginning to play games in that region with the characters coming from the 2nd Marine Division.

The big unanswered question from here is, was the city laid to waste by conventional fighting or by a tactical nuclear strike. Here again, I lean to the second option.

So it is my opinion only, that the Soviets nuked the city as the German 1st Army and it's allied components were being pushed out of Poland in during the second half of 1997. Although a very colorful story could be made for the Germans nuking the town as the Soviets entered it.

From reading on the history of Elblag, I tend to think the Germans would want it to stay intact since it is a city that had once been a German city and some deep history tied to Germany's past.

Now this brings me to a question. Has anyone outlined the German Army and their movements through the war? I'm going back and looking at my stuff but I've only just begun this process and if someone has already done a lot of ground work I'd love to read over it.

[Legbreaker]

On 2 April 2, NATO launched Operation Advent Crown. The German Second Army drove up the Baltic coast, and the German Third Army advanced along the Oder River. The German First Army, to which 1st Corps was attached, was ordered to drive through central Poland. Led by 1st Armoured Division, 1st Corps broke through the Polish forces on the Oder on the 24th. On 4 May, the division entered Poznan, and the corps split into two columns, with 1st and 2nd divisions continuing east, while the rest of the corps headed southeast. On 11 May, the 4th Armoured Division took Kalisz, encountering only scattered opposition; on 17 May, it reached Lodz, which fell on the 25th. By the end of May, the two columns linked up on the outskirts of Warsaw—the corps was ordered to take the city.
In mid-July, the Italians began to enter southern Germany, and NATO forces moved to oppose them—primarily the British 1st and 2nd armoured divisions.
As August arrived, BAOR was forced to switch to the defensive. Soviet forces were attempting to relieve Warsaw, and NATO forces to the north and south of BAOR's theatre were conducting mobile defensive withdrawals. On 15 September, the Soviet 7th Guards Tank Army broke through to Warsaw. First Corps began a fierce withdrawal action in a desperate attempt to stop the Soviets, but it was too heavily outnumbered and was pushed back. By the end of September, NATO began to use tactical nuclear weapons to stop the Soviets The Soviets replied by using their own nuclear weapons.
EAST (2ND ARMOURED) DIVISION
The division was formed in the summer of 1996 and arrived in Germany on 15 October 1996. It crossed the inter-German frontier on 10 December 1996 and was in combat by 12 December 1996. The 2nd fought hard in eastern Germany, where it repulsed an attack by the Soviet 20th Guards Army. In July 1997, the division was sent south, along with the rest of I Corps, to fight the Italians.
I'm not seeing any big problem here.
The BOAR was ordered from Poland to southern Germany to meet the Italian advance.
The Italian advance faltered due to their industry not having yet spun up to war time production and the military exhausting their pre-war supplies. This occurred around the same time as the Soviets reached Warsaw so the British were withdrawn from the Italian front where the situation appeared to have stabilised and rushed back into Poland where the situation was somewhat dire.

Yes, there's a bit of running about for the British, but don't forget this was in the days before nukes and when petroleum fuels were still in relatively plentiful supply. Running on petroleum fuels, even the slowest tank can cross from one side of Poland to the other in about a day or so. Therefore, it's not particularly difficult to see the BOAR being redeployed that quickly especially if they were given priority over the rear area roads and rails - it's not like they had to move off road through enemy held terrain.

[Benjamin]

If you read on, the contradiction actually gets worse. From page 47 of the SGUK:



That quote suggests that the entire I Corps was transferred to southern Germany in July 1997.

I'd say the most likely compromise to try and follow canon would be to shift the 1st and 2nd Armoured Divisions to southern Germany, whilst leaving the 3rd and 4th Armoured Divisions in Poland.

This is the same book that says on page 8...

"As August arrived, BAOR was forced to switch to the defensive. Soviet forces were attempting to relieve Warsaw, and NATO forces to the north and south of BAOR's theater were conducting mobile defensive withdrawals. On 15 September, the Soviet 7th Guards Tank Army broke through to Warsaw. First Corps began a fierce withdrawal action in a desperate attempt to stop the Soviets, but it was too heavily outnumbered and was pushed back. By the end of September, NATO began to use tactical nuclear weapons to stop the Soviets. The Soviets replied by using their own nuclear weapons."

Emphasis added by me.

Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom (1990) by Peter Phillipps.

Given that NATO first use goes against every other source of canon and that the date for nuclear release is incorrect as well; we can only assume that Mr. Phillipps was in fact a French agent who deliberately attempted to discredit NATO.

Arguing canon is largely a fools errand.

Benjamin

[Legbreaker]

The big unanswered question from here is, was the city laid to waste by conventional fighting or by a tactical nuclear strike. Here again, I lean to the second option.

My guess is both. It didn't take nukes in WWII to level cities, a week or so of artillery, infantry and armoured attacks was often enough to do some serious damage. A good example of what can be done in just a few days (and without air attacks!) can be seen in the movie "A Bridge Too Far" where they show Arnhem. Another example is the town at the end of "Saving Private Ryan".
Now this brings me to a question. Has anyone outlined the German Army and their movements through the war? I'm going back and looking at my stuff but I've only just begun this process and if someone has already done a lot of ground work I'd love to read over it.
I started but the material is very vague. It's hard enough getting a handle on US units, and being a game focused on US soldiers, there's a lot more info for them! Most of the information details just the date (but not necessarily location) they entered combat and where they are four years later. What they did in the meantime is mainly ignored. AND a number of Divisions changed Corps and even Armies during the war with confuses the situation even more.

[Legbreaker]

By the end of September, NATO began to use tactical nuclear weapons to stop the Soviets. The Soviets replied by using their own nuclear weapons."

The Soviets first used nukes on the 9th of July 1997.
On July 9th, with advanced elements of the 1st German Army on Soviet soil, the Soviets begin using tactical nuclear weapons. In the West, they are used sparingly at first, and for the first week are used only against troop concentrations no further than 50 kilometers from the Soviet border. In the Far East, however, they are used on a massive scale. Chinese mechanized columns are vaporized, caught in the open on the roads in imagined pursuit. Strike aircraft deliver warheads on the northern Chinese population and industrial centers still in Chinese hands. The Chinese response is immediate, but Soviet forward troop units are dispersed and well prepared.
On the western front, the forward elements of both armies on the Soviet-Polish frontier are hit hard by tactical nuclear strikes, as NATO matched the Warsaw Pact warhead for warhead.
A possible explanation for the differing date of Nato first use, is how they were used.
In July, August and most of September, they were used by Nato on a one for one basis against targets of great value but behind the front lines (Divisional or Army HQs, supply depots, etc). This policy changed after Warsaw was relieved to use against the Soviet front lines in order to break up not just their logistical support, but the combat units (battalions and brigades/regiments) themselves. This change is a significant escalation in the use of nukes and could well be a major contributor towards the use of strategic weapons just two months later.

[Raellus]

I don't think Elblag is on any nuclear strike lists (at least none that are canonically confirmed) so I choose to imagine that it was not nuked. I think the Germans would be very reluctant to agree to any nuclear strikes on areas of Poland that they've made historical claims to in the past (to the extant they have any sort of veto power), and Elblag has been a part of the various iterations of German Prussia from medieval times up to the Third Reich. IF the city was nuked- and, once again, I tend to think that it was not- the Soviets are likely to blame.

That said, the map in the BYB does show Elblag as being rubbled. I therefore tend to think that damage to the city was caused by conventional fighting (artillery, naval gunfire, airstrikes, etc.). For an idea of what modern Russian conventional firepower can do to relatively small city, do a Google image search for Grozny. Ouch.

For my campaign to work, I need an Elblag that doesn't look like Hiroshima. I've chosen to stray a bit from the canon and have the city be only moderately damaged by years of conventional fighting, but not rubbled per se (some repairs have been conducted by the city's inhabitants since the last round of heavy fighting) . If asked to rate the extent of the damage to the city on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being pristine and 10 being ashes and dust, I choose to envision Elblag somewhere around a 5.

[Adm.Lee]

I agree with Raellus that heavy conventional fighting can do the same sort of urban damage as a nuke, those aren't needed. For my Baltic Marines game, if it comes up, I'll say it there was heavy fighting in the summer of '97, between the Germans and the Soviets who were trying to prevent the restoration of East Prussia, and the protection of Kaliningrad, actual Soviet territory. I see a last stand, maybe even a siege of cut-off Soviet forces there, same as in Warsaw.

If we've seen that the few NATO units that crossed the Polish-USSR border were in the central area, that does not mean that all of NATO forces were on the border, and the German left wing could have been held back to the west. Thus, Elblag and the lower Vistula becomes a near-static battleground for a few weeks, and that's plenty to waste a city.

Hmm, the Soviet forces most likely to be fighting up here would be the armies of the Baltic Front, that would include the same 9th Guards Army we are seeing in 'A beach too far.' Those guys might be a little more motivated?

All that said, tactical nukes could easily have been dropped by air or short-range missiles on obvious chokepoints like the Vistula delta bridges and railyards, when they were just behind the lines. So, GMs can pick their poison.

[Rainbow Six]

I don't think Elblag is on any nuclear strike lists (at least none that are canonically confirmed) so I choose to imagine that it was not nuked.

The following is from the Looter's Guide to the Baltic Coast (Challenge issue 25 - apologies if it's already been referenced in this thread, I had a quick skim through and didn't see it if it was)

Although only Gdansk and Szczecin suffered under nuclear
attacks, Gdynia, Hel and Swinoujscie were heavily bombarded.
The devastation done was similar.

Elblag itself isn't specifically mentioned, but the article describes some communities as heavily damaged, but others (e.g. Puck and Ustka) as having been relatively unscathed, so looks like anything from almost total destruction to virtually no damage is possible.

[oldschoolgm]

Great find Rainbow. Unfortunately I don't own any of the Challenger Magazines in any form.

Looking at the maps, and from what all has been discussed I'd go as far as saying Elblag has been pretty heavily damaged, but like Raellus states as well, it believe that various parts of the city may be fairly intact. The more I pour over modern maps of the city, it really doesn't look as big as I originally imagined. Today it has 127,000 inhabitants. So post destruction we'd expect to see 1200 to 1500 people living there?

[Raellus]

The following is from the Looter's Guide to the Baltic Coast (Challenge issue 25 - apologies if it's already been referenced in this thread, I had a quick skim through and didn't see it if it was)



Elblag itself isn't specifically mentioned, but the article describes some communities as heavily damaged, but others (e.g. Puck and Ustka) as having been relatively unscathed, so looks like anything from almost total destruction to virtually no damage is possible.

I'd forgotten all about that article- ironically, one of the few I've actually read all the way through. Thanks for this, Rainbow. I appreciate any canonical material that supports my vision. :cool:

[Legbreaker]

Looters Guide only covers from Gdansk and to the west. The Vistula estuary and parts east (including Elblag) aren't included.

With regards to nukes, Elblag has some industry worth nuking, but given the relatively shallow canal (vessels of a draft greater than 1.5 metres aren't allowed) it would seem unlikely to be a high priority. However, the Pact may have been desperate to rebuild some vague notion of naval power in the Baltic and Elblag is capable of building torpedo boats and the like....

A seaport near the Vistula Lagoon, it has shipyards, machinery plants, and an important metallurgical industry.
Circa 1979
Elblag’s industries include heavy machine building (the manufacture of turbines, ship equipment, reducers, and metalworking tools), transportation machine building, food processing, and the manufacture of clothes and wood products.
Honestly, I'm torn on whether or not to nuke the city. There's arguments both for and against spending a warhead, but given tactical nukes were used to attack military units in the field, and Czestochowa attracted a warhead even after it had been subjected to at least one nuclear demo charge...

[kota1342000]

Back to Rae's original TF Inchon scenario, Im really impressed with what you came up with. I remember developing some kind of set of quick games for 2MARDIV when I was much younger, but my stuff was far less detailed at the time.
Im going to go on a quest through the old T2K stuff to try and find what I had, but I seem to remember putting most of 2MARDIV ashore at Gdynia, and then moving to a meeting engagement in and around Elbag. Later on we sent a TF similar to TF Inchon on a "raid in force" in an attempt to rescue the 5th ID (a task that obviously was going to fail).

[Raellus]

Back to Rae's original TF Inchon scenario, Im really impressed with what you came up with. I remember developing some kind of set of quick games for 2MARDIV when I was much younger, but my stuff was far less detailed at the time.
Im going to go on a quest through the old T2K stuff to try and find what I had, but I seem to remember putting most of 2MARDIV ashore at Gdynia, and then moving to a meeting engagement in and around Elbag. Later on we sent a TF similar to TF Inchon on a "raid in force" in an attempt to rescue the 5th ID (a task that obviously was going to fail).

Thanks!

[Legbreaker]

Rae, I've been working on the 2nd Marines landing and likely objectives for the past week or so and have come to the conclusion that with the available manpower, Elblag would have had to be left until quite late. With the number of bridges and other strategically important locations they'd need to secure, and Elblag's location on the eastern fringe of their assigned area, it may even have fallen to the relatively fresh (besides travel time) 8th ID to take the city, supported by engineering and recon elements of the Marines.

I should have a more detailed idea of what's going on within the week (which I expect to be picked apart by everyone. :p)

[Raellus]

Rae, I've been working on the 2nd Marines landing and likely objectives for the past week or so and have come to the conclusion that with the available manpower, Elblag would have had to be left until quite late. With the number of bridges and other strategically important locations they'd need to secure, and Elblag's location on the eastern fringe of their assigned area, it may even have fallen to the relatively fresh (besides travel time) 8th ID to take the city, supported by engineering and recon elements of the Marines.

I should have a more detailed idea of what's going on within the week (which I expect to be picked apart by everyone. :p)

I'm interested to see what you come up with.

I based my version of events on a simple correlation of forces in the XI Corps AO and, aside from the Polish TD, there's not a lot of WTO combat strength there to stop mechanized NATO forces near the Baltic. Factor in the Tarawa and other attached amphibs and their accompanying naval gunfire support and the Marines have significant freedom of movement/action.

[Tegyrius]

Emphasis mine:

I based my version of events on a simple correlation of forces in the XI Corps AO and, aside from the Polish TD, there's not a lot of WTO combat strength there to stop mechanized NATO forces near the Baltic. Factor in the Tarawa and other attached amphibs and their accompanying naval gunfire support and the Marines have significant freedom of movement/action.

You must be talking about some contingent of NPCs that your PCs haven't seen... :cool:

- C.

[Raellus]

You must be talking about some contingent of NPCs that your PCs haven't seen...

I meant when the op was launched. Hey, it wouldn't be T2K if the PCs weren't thrust into desperate straights against overwhelming odds! ;)

[Legbreaker]

I'm working on the assumption the bulk of the marine force would land in the vicinity of Stegna, with primary objectives being the village & bridges at Rybina (where the HQ would set themselves up), Vistula river crossing at Dworek, Nowy Dwor (both town & bridges), and the bridge at Jazowa.
Secondary objectives would be the bridge at western end of the island of Sobieszewo, the lock at the south east corner of Sobieszewo island, and the ferry across the mouth of the main channel at Mikoszewo.
These objectives give the 8th ID and any follow on units two prepared routes with crossing points to choose between.
Once secured, moves could be made on Elblag, probably with assistance from the newly arrived (hopefully) 8th ID.

Although the east and west flanks of the marines would be protected by rivers, there's still a LOT of open flood plains on their south flank through which the enemy could attack. Much of the 4,000 strong force would need to be allocated to defending the three river crossings (Dworek, Nowy Dwor and Jazowa) and patrolling between those locations and further south. As these three crossings are the most likely axis of advance for follow on units, they'd absolutely HAVE to be held.

With approximately 1,300 troops assigned to supporting roles (HQ, logistics, transport, artillery, engineering, etc), and one regiment (say 600 men) defending the secondary objectives around Sobieszewo Island, that leaves only about 2,100 including the recon and armoured elements to defend a front with few helpful terrain features of about 22 kilometres. Also, units would need to be positioned/patrol along the flanks to ensure the rivers weren't crossed by enemy forces and the combat units attacked from the rear (or the supporting units attacked at all).

All up, the Marines would have a front to defend of approximately 40 kilometres which blows out to nearly 60 kilometres if Elblag is taken (no natural barriers to the east, south or north, although there does appear to be some old ancient earthworks to the north).

With Pact Cavalry units in the area, and the HQ of the Baltic Front known to be at Malbork (Intel Estimate 142, June 2000), just 15 kilometres or so away from Nowy Dwor, the Marines can't afford to overstretch themselves.

[Raellus]

You make a good point, Leg, about the Marines not wanting to stretch themselves too thin. However, your version seems to account only for 2 MarDiv and the 8th MID. What about the rest of XI Corps and III German Corps? When the [German Third Army] offensive kicks off, NATO has a lot of combat power in NW Poland; aside from the relatively powerful Polish 9th MRD division, the WTO forces in the AO consist mosty of small cavalry units that, while mobile, probably don't have a lot of firepower, compared to the U.S. mech and armored divisions that make up XI Corps.

Here's a map I made of unit dispositions in Poland during the summer 2000 (before the disaster at Kalisz). You'll have to zoom in on the AO.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=206956330743072967253.00047b0881d4ef792073 e&msa=0

Even leaving German III Corps out of the picture entirely, U.S. XI Corps, with the U.S. 50th TD, 116th ACR, 8th MID, and Canadian 4th MB (4600 men & 67 tanks), attacking east, could deal with the Polish units East of Gydnia (5900 men and 10 tanks). The Marines (4000;8), given the proper sealift capacity, would be able to launch amphibious assaults deep in the Pact rear. In my scenario, some of 2 MarDiv (all the tanks and at least a regiment) also attacks overland with the rest of XI Corps- that's 5600 men and 75 tanks against 5900 men and only 10 tanks. And this doesn't even include 5th MID!

Also, given the dubious loyalty of some of the Polish units in the AO (the Polish 1st Tank Army declares for the PFC by winter), I think III Corps intel was counting on some of the Polish units not putting up much of a fight.

The goal of the XI Corps offensive, in my mind, is to cut off the Polish units in the Penninsula (that's my vision) and launch raids deep into Pact territory (that's canon). It's essentially a single envelopment attack, with XI Corps slashing across the base of the Penninsula, while German III Corps attacks east, protecting its flank. The raids (5th MID & 8th MID) are intended to sow confusion and create panic. In my T2KU, about 3/4 of the Marines are also a part of this raiding force.

One last question for you, Leg. How/where did you come up with the figure of 1,300 Marines acting as support personnel? Is this a personal inference or is it based on canon? Personally, I interpret the unit strength figures given by canon as combat power- logistics and support personnel are not included in the numbers given. By 2000 most logisitical and support duties would be handled by local personnel supervised by troops no longer capable of front-line duty (amputees & such). Units by 2000 would be a lot leaner than they are today and, since they're already quite small (a division of 1000 men?), if you make some of them into support troops, you're left with even less combat power.

But hey, that's the beauty of T2K. We're all allowed to interpret and modify our game worlds as we see fit.

[Legbreaker]

However, your version seems to account only for 2 MarDiv and the 8th MID. What about the rest of XI Corps and III German Corps?
The Marines had to have landed in advance of the main force, otherwise what's the point of them landing at all? The objectives I've listed are really only their first stage - perhaps just the first week or so. Once reinforcements arrived, the situation would have been reassessed and the Corps commander, guided by the wishes of the German III Army commander, would have re-tasked them, perhaps even taken them back on board the ships and redeployed them further along the coast.

As we know, it's extremely unlikely any units other than the 8th ID would have made it that far east, at least not in any significant numbers. My assessment of the overall offensive, first posted back in 2008 details the reasons behind that.

We also know from the 8th ID entry in the US Army Vehicle Guide (V1) that the 8th ID was detached from the XI Corp.
In the summer of 2000, the division was detached from the corps and made its way overland through northern Poland to Latvia.
Note it was detached before it moved through northern Poland which says to me it left the rest of the corps behind it in western Poland.

Here's a map I made of unit dispositions in Poland during the summer 2000 (before the disaster at Kalisz). You'll have to zoom in on the AO.
I've got grave doubts about those locations. The more I dig, the more I research, the more I believe the offensive started before June 2000. The 5th ID "jumping off point" of the area of Chojnice and Czluchow seems to have been simply where they were as of that date. There's a good chance in my mind at least that they had actually started the year further westwards and their June location was simply where they where at the beginning of their next phase of the offensive.
The United States 5th Infantry Division (Mechanised) jumped off on its raid on June 19th from Chojnice and Czluchow in a converging drive on the Bydgoszcz and Torun area
I could well be wrong, but why would they be so far out from friendly lines and surrounded by hostile forces otherwise?

And, as I've mentioned before on numerous occasions, the positions shown on the map in the 2.x BYB simply don't add up. Some locations are pre-offensive, some post, some don't even match up with information from other references. Basically, the whole map seems to be drawn up for the players benefit and includes a number of wild guesses as borne out by close examination of Intel Estimate 142 in conjunction with the vehicle guides.

So, to summarise, the US 2nd Marines would have had to plan on taking only what they could hold on to until XI Corps linked up with them, and they'd have to do it without the help of air power or any sort (beyond maybe an occasional flight), satellite and aerial recon, decent electronic surveillance, etc. They'd be back to using the intelligence assets of pre-WWI and remnants of modern tech, as well as being restricted in their ability to quickly redeploy military assets in response to enemy activity.

Even leaving German III Corps out of the picture entirely, U.S. XI Corps, with the U.S. 50th TD, 116th ACR, 8th MID, and Canadian 4th MB (4600 men & 67 tanks), attacking east, could deal with the Polish units East of Gydnia (5900 men and 10 tanks). The Marines (4000;8), given the proper sealift capacity, would be able to launch amphibious assaults deep in the Pact rear. In my scenario, some of 2 MarDiv (all the tanks and at least a regiment) also attacks overland with the rest of XI Corps- that's 5600 men and 75 tanks against 5900 men and only 10 tanks.
Note my comments about pre-offensive dispositions.
The same can be said for enemy strengths.

Looking at the available information, it's clear the NATO commanders saw the Baltic coast and it's Polish defenders as a weak point in the PACT defences, however the PACT commanders had to have known something NATO didn't, otherwise why would they have left such an obvious hole in the line? It's very possible the Poles were equipped with numerous anti-armour weapons, numbered more than is shown in the books, had a few more tanks than shown, or a number of other factors all which caused the bulk of the XI Corps to become bogged down. As has been discussed in the past years, the NATO reliance on fuel may have played into the Poles hands. Heavy, armoured units have to stop every few days or so to brew fuel - cavalry, while slower in the short term and unable to carry as much heavy weaponry, can run rings around tanks and APCs with only fumes in their tanks, avoiding the heavy guns and slicing into the infantry and rear areas.


Also, given the dubious loyalty of some of the Polish units in the AO (the Polish 1st Tank Army declares for the PFC by winter), I think III Corps intel was counting on some of the Polish units not putting up much of a fight.
Doubtful.
No commander in their right mind would include the hope of the enemy switching sides or melting away in their plans. It's an invitation to disaster.

The goal of the XI Corps offensive, in my mind, is to cut off the Polish units in the Penninsula (that's my vision) and launch raids deep into Pact territory (that's canon). It's essentially a single envelopment attack, with XI Corps slashing across the base of the Penninsula, while German III Corps attacks east, protecting its flank. The raids (5th MID & 8th MID) are intended to sow confusion and create panic.
That could work, and I'm of a similar opinion, however we can't be 100% positive of the pre-offensive positions of any unit. Most we have a fairly good idea about, but for some it's a crap shoot.

How/where did you come up with the figure of 1,300 Marines acting as support personnel? Is this a personal inference or is it based on canon? Personally, I interpret the unit strength figures given by canon as combat power- logistics and support personnel are not included in the numbers given. By 2000 most logistical and support duties would be handled by local personnel supervised by troops no longer capable of front-line duty (amputees & such). Units by 2000 would be a lot leaner than they are today and, since they're already quite small (a division of 1000 men?), if you make some of them into support troops, you're left with even less combat power.
As mentioned a few days back, I've been working on the 2nd Marines for a while now. I've carried out intensive research into the organisation and requirements of a marine unit and it's become fairly clear to me that 1300 give or take 200 is a fair figure for T2K.
We know from canon materials, specifically The Ruins of Warsaw that the listed number of troops of a unit is indeed the full number of ALL members of that unit. The SOV 10th GTD has a listed strength of 300 and we have the breakdown in that book to show exactly what's going on, right down to individual members.
We also have The Black Madonna detailing the Czech 14th MRD, 1st AAB, 3rd BGB, and SOV 129th MRD which clearly indicates the inclusion of support personnel in the total troop numbers.

Getting back to the Marines, given the poor state of naval forces in T2K, it's a fair assumption that amphibious assets simply aren't available to transport more than the 4,000 troops and their vehicles in 2000 for an amphibious landing. If there were port facilities available, perhaps, but across the beaches and up the rivers? I think not.
This may well be part of the reason the German Marine units were not included in the landing(s) - they were held back to act as a reserve marine force and would use the same ships which had earlier landed the US Marines.

[Raellus]

Suit yourself, Leg. I've done quite a bit of research too and I'm comfortable with what I've done with it. I wish you liked my scenario, but I'm not going to change it based on your disapproval. This is my T2KU and you don't have to live in it. By the same token, I don't need to accept your vision either. Once we get into debating who's stuff is more "accurate" (based on what criteria? Canon, I suppose?), we move on to a very slippery slope. I'm not trying to dictate anything with my material- I'm simply offering up a vision of T2K for the rest of the community to do with, or dispense with, as each member sees fit.

I considered responding point-by-point to your rebuttle, but I think that would be a waste of time (a lot of my thinking regarding 3rd German Army's Summer 2000 Offensive has already been laid out elsewhere on the forum). We clearly don't see eye to eye on this and I'm fine with that.

I would like to point out, however, that I created the map based solely on canonical sources. There's no speculation there on my part, unless it's explicitly noted in the key. If you want to pick and choose which canon supports your vision and ignore what doesn't, that's totally your prerogative.

[Tegyrius]

Remember, kids: only you can prevent canon-on-canon arguments!

- C.

[Cdnwolf]

:confused: So once more you are arguing over a game that has been out of print for 20 years? Its YOUR game run it how you like. Now go get a couple of beers and don't make me sick my mother-in-law on you two!!

[boogiedowndonovan]

I think we all need to go outside, fire up the BBQ and light off some fireworks to celebrate 4th of July. whoohooooo!!!

[Raellus]

Man, I must have come across as really bitchy in my last post. Sorry, fellas. That was not my intent. You'll get no trouble out of me. One mother-in-law is quite enough already! ; )

[Legbreaker]

I've no problem with your vision Rae and like I've said a few times in the past agree with you on almost every aspect. I'm just trying to help make what you're doing as good and logical as it can possibly be.

I would like to know where you disagree with me though, point by point. I'm just one person, just like everyone else, and could well have overlooked something you (or others) haven't.

[Tegyrius]

Leg.

For once, man, please back away from the keyboard and stop trying to get the last word.

- C.

[Legbreaker]

Umm, what? I WANT to hear Rae's (and others) comments, not because of any desire for an argument, but because I WANT THE FEEDBACK!

It's just that simple...

It's not about who's right and who's wrong, or anyone getting the last word. It's about discussing ideas and making improvements.

[Tegyrius]

Leg, I see what you're saying, but you may want to consider that your fervent pursuit of "discussion" often looks more like "aggression" on some of our monitors. In this specific case, Rae indicated he was disengaging, to which you immediately responded by trying to press the very point-by-point exchange he'd just said he was leaving.

- C.

[Raellus]

It's OK, guys.

I don't mind discussing anything and I don't claim that my stuff can't be improved upon. That said, Leg, when your apparent aim is to refute my original premise (a battalion-sized Marine TF in/around Elblag to secure the rest of 2 MarDiv's extreme left flank and pave the way for 8th ID's drive into the Baltic states) then there seems to be very little point in discussing anything.

I'll take you at your word though, Leg, and lay out a couple points and hopefully we can at least come to some sort of understanding, if not agreement.

Regarding sealift capacity: My premise assumes the presence of the Tarawa in the western Baltic (and I thought this was your position as well). With one or two additional amphibs, I don't see why a good chunk of 2 MarDiv can't be landed behind WTO lines in order to assist in the envelopment of the Polish units near the coast and west of Gdansk. To transport my battalion-sized TF, I used two smaller, former East German landing craft and a couple of converted minelayers/sweepers. I don't think that I'm going overboard here. Remember, not all of 2 MarDiv is conducting landings- a good part of it and all of its heavy armor is pushing east overland towards Gdansk.

Regarding logistics: My scenario envisions units that are a little more flexible and self-sufficient when it comes to logistics. Granted, this doesn't jive with modern, RL armies, but it does keep with one of the central visions of the T2K designers. If 5th ID and 8th IDs can operate essentially independently and well in advance of other allied units, why can't 2nd MarDiv, especially when it has amphibious support? If NATO controls that little slice of sea, logistics should probably be easier for 2 MarDiv than they would be for a landlocked unit like the 5th ID. If 8th ID can end up in Latvia (WTF!?!), then why is Elblag to far east an objective for a TF from 2 MarDiv? In my mind, 5th and 8th IDs deep "raid" attacks seem much less viable if other allied units aren't also pushing further west (at least to Gdansk)

My scenario also imagines a slightly larger offensive than you seem to not be embracing now. In my German III Army Summer Offensive, most of XI Corps is tasked with cutting off the peninsula from Gdansk to the west, 8th ID is conducting a major deep-penetration raid east along the Baltic shelf, and 5th ID is conducting a diversionary raid to the SE. III German Corps is conducting a direct, wide frontage attack east, largely to hold the stronger WTO forces it faces in place so that XI Corps doesn't have to worry about it's long flank as it moves east to Gdansk. Taken as a whole, I think this summer offensive makes a lot of sense, at least in the T2K world c.2000.

Regarding Polish passivity: Yes, I totally agree with you that counting on little Polish resistance would be a very foolish gamble on the part of the planners of 3rd German Army's summer offensive. I'm my T2KU, though, NATO is acting on intel from a well-placed Polish "agent" with a murky connection to the nascent PFC. In the end, it was clearly wishful thinking, and it definitely turned out to be a collosal error of judgment (perhaps the "agent" was actually a cunning double). But this scenario is not terribly flar-flung; it echoes real world situations where bad intel has suckered wishful thinkers. Most recently, leading up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the U.S. was led by an influential Iraqi exile (his name escapes me at the moment) to believe that the Iraqi people would welcome the American invaders and quickly accept a government in which he would play a prominent role. This was what the administration wanted to hear and it was one of the factors that motivated the final decision to invade Iraq and topple Saddam. The exile was quickly discredited and the U.S. found itself mired in a half-decade-long guerilla war.

I won't argue your point about unit strength. It looks like you've got me there. If canon states that unit strength listed in the modules and sourcebooks include REMFs, then I will either accept it, or purposefully overlook it. I won't claim that my take is better, more reasonable, etc.

To sum up, I want to restate the entire premise of my version of events. I'm not trying to create the definitive version of German 3rd Army's summer offensive here, or even just 2nd MarDiv's role in it. I'm quite satisfied with my version- I think it holds to the spirit of T2K and the elements of the offensive explicitly outlined in canon and, more importantly, it works well with the scenario that I wrote for my "Beach Too Far" campaign. But, if it doesn't work for others, that's fine. I'm not attempting to dictate anything. I wanted to run an "Escape from Kalisz" type game for Marines in 2000 and my Summer Offensive scenario was built around plausibly setting that up. TF Inchon is supposed to be too far east- otherwise, the campaign scenario doesn't work. Whenever I create something for T2K, I do hope other people like it and, ideally, even use it. But I totally understand and accept that others most likely won't. I don't agree that my stuff is somehow outlanding or highly improbable, though. I think it's highly logical and, in the T2K world, quite plausible.

[Legbreaker]

Regarding sealift capacity: My premise assumes the presence of the Tarawa in the western Baltic (and I thought this was your position as well).
Correct, although what happens to it after the landings is open to debate.
The 2nd Marines would indeed require the use of pretty much all available amphibious shipping in the northern European theatre.

Regarding logistics: My scenario envisions units that are a little more flexible and self-sufficient when it comes to logistics. Granted, this doesn't jive with modern, RL armies, but it does keep with one of the central visions of the T2K designers.
Absolutely agree. It's been several years since the nuclear exchanges and resupply from outside the immediate AO stopped cold. This requires a major reorganisation of the supporting units and (as I'll show in a few days with my take on the 2nd Marines OOB circa early 2000) many of those units would have to be folded into the divisional structure to enable more efficient use of the minimal resources.

It's my belief (as stated in other older threads) that the bulk of the German III Army was to have been supplied by sea, which means the loss of a ship or two of the size and capability of the Tarawa would have been catastrophic not just for the Marines, but for the entire Corps (if not German III Army)!
If a ship of that size could be taken out, it's probable smaller ships and landing craft were also lost. This appears to be supported by the continued presence of the XI Corps in northern Poland in Going Home - severe shortage of shallow draft vessels to enable the Corps to be evacuated by sea, even though there was sufficient vessels to land the Marines just a few months earlier.

My scenario also imagines a slightly larger offensive than you seem to not be embracing now.
My very first post on this forum was all about advocating a MUCH larger scale offensive than had previously been envisaged. It's not entirely the same as your vision, but the XI Corps elements are very similar.

...it works well with the scenario that I wrote for my "Beach Too Far" campaign.
That it does. My intention is simply to assist where I can, offer alternative views and hopefully help you write the best possible scenario you can.

One small detail which drew my attention today is that as of the 01JUL00, the 8th ID is already reported in all sources to already be in Latvia. Perhaps winding back the clock by a month your scenario could better line up with the canon materials? A slightly earlier landing by the marines would also reduce the pressure on the main front by possibly forcing the Pact commanders to redeploy units eastwards to contain the marines and therefore allow the XI Corps to break through the defending units a little easier - at least that may have been the theory....
Reality might have been somewhat different with units on the front lines staying where they were and reserve units far behind the lines (Ukraine, Russia?) moved up instead. These reserve units may have been judged too far away to be a significant threat during the Nato planning stages as it was assumed they had no petroleum fuels/lower numbers of horses.

[Legbreaker]

Rae, where do you have TF Inchon landing?
This might be of interest to you also. http://www.maritime.com.pl/port/indexp-en.php?p=ELBLAG

[Raellus]

Thanks for the site, Leg. It looks rather informative.

In my scenario, Tarawa is taken out of action by a concerted and audacious and ultimately suicidal attack by a Soviet diesel sub and a couple of missile boats, during a brief summer storm on the Baltic. The Soviets decided to risk some of its last coastal defense units to bag a big NATO amphib. Since, in my T2KU at least, the Soviets were also preparing a major summer offensive/counteroffensive, this naval attack was quickly made part of their larger strategy in the region.

I'll have to check the relevant sources again for a specific date by which the 8th ID has reached Latvia. That seems way early considering that the 5th ID hasn't even started it's raid by then (IIRC). If that's really the date explicitly given, I may have to wilfully ignore it.

[rcaf_777]

Regarding sealift capacity: My premise assumes the presence of the Tarawa in the western Baltic (and I thought this was your position as well). With one or two additional amphibs, I don't see why a good chunk of 2 MarDiv can't be landed behind WTO lines in order to assist in the envelopment of the Polish units near the coast and west of Gdansk. To transport my battalion-sized TF, I used two smaller, former East German landing craft and a couple of converted minelayers/sweepers. I don't think that I'm going overboard here. Remember, not all of 2 MarDiv is conducting landings- a good part of it and all of its heavy armor is pushing east overland towards Gdansk.

Why do you need the Tarawa I mean both Denmark and Germany have islands suitable for launching coastal raids. You mention divisionary attacks; well having a few companies land along the Polish coast is a good way to tying up troops. Having marines doing raids vs. sea based invasion means for supply they carry it all with them, they then withdraw. Also instead of huge anti ship missile target let not forget the RFA Sir Galahad in Flaklands in 1982.

Many of the NATO nations have marines and landing craft that are capble of conducting raid along the baltic coast.

I think added a few RM Raiders and Dutch Marines would also allow a PC unit to have character of other nationalites

Also most of former East German Navy Equipment was scrapped or sold in early 1991

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_Navy_ship_classes

[Raellus]

You make a couple of good points, RCAF. If the attack was just part of a series of raids, the Tarawa almost certainly wouldn't be risked. On that note, my TF Inchon (Law has advised that I should probably change the unit name since Marines name TF's after the TF's main unit)- one of the smaller units participating independently and the one landed furthest east- was landed by two smaller East German landing craft and a couple of converted minelayers/sweepers. You pointed out that they had been scrapped in the early '90s, but I use the v1.0 timeline in which the Cold War continued unabated until WWIII. In that world, a lot of military hardware that was retired, sold off, or scrapped in our real-world timeline would have been kept around. The Cold War was largely a numbers game. If East Germany still existed in '96, and still kept marine infantry type units, they would have kept their handful of amphibs.

Inchon, however, is part of a larger operation, already described. The Tarawa is landing the main force of Marines closer to Gdansk. Several NATO destroyers and frigates are providing security. Two of the escorts, however, were protecting the Inchon landing craft and so weren't able to intervene during the attack on the Tarawa.

For a more "classic T2K" small unit type campaign, a group of NATO SF recon/raiders could be certainly be the focal point, operating anywhere around Gdansk, including Elblag.

I posted a pan-NATO SOF group a while back that GMs could use as a premise for multi-national commando units conducting reconaissance and raiding missions in NW Poland. For coastal recon, you could have Marine recon, RM/SBS, Dutch Marines, German KSK, Danish frogmen or Jaegercommandos, Norwegian SF, etc.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2315&highlight=1st+Inter+Allied+commando

[Targan]

I posted a pan-NATO SOF group a while back that GMs could use as a premise for multi-national commando units conducting reconaissance and raiding missions in NW Poland. For coastal recon, you could have Marine recon, RM/SBS, Dutch Marines, German KSK, Danish frogmen or Jaegercommandos, Norwegian SF, etc.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2315&highlight=1st+Inter+Allied+commando

I don't know how I missed that thread at the time you started it, Rae, but I love that idea. It's very T2K.

[Raellus]

I don't know how I missed that thread at the time you started it, Rae, but I love that idea. It's very T2K.

Thanks, Targan. I'm quite pleased that you like it. :D

I've often thought that a special forces raid against the Soviet Army HQ in Malbork (probably headquartered in the old Teutonic order castle there) would be a really cool one-off. One of these days, perhaps...

[Legbreaker]

In my scenario, Tarawa is taken out of action by a concerted and audacious and ultimately suicidal attack by a Soviet diesel sub and a couple of missile boats, during a brief summer storm on the Baltic.
With the remnants of the Polish Navy at Gdynia that's certainly plausible. It's my guess the Tarawa (which we know was in the area due to a colour plate in the Nautical & Aviation book) was already damaged and was probably operating without it's full suite of sensors and defensive weapons. Chances are not much more than a portable radar unit placed on the flight deck and a few AA guns and missiles would have been available - perhaps judged enough after an inaccurate Intel report showing there were next to no serious threats (torpedo boats, etc) left in the region.

I'll have to check the relevant sources again for a specific date by which the 8th ID has reached Latvia. That seems way early considering that the 5th ID hasn't even started it's raid by then (IIRC).
There's no "arrival" date however all books show the 8th in Latvia as of the 1st of July 2000.
As posted previously, it seems plausible at least that the XI Corps attack started before the 19th of June, and their "raid" as detailed in the "Death of a Division" scenario was simply a new phase of the operation. As posted, their "starting position" just seems too deep within enemy held ground or them to have spent the previous winter there without being cut off.

Civilian shipping could have been used to transport the Marines as well as the Tarawa and any other military vessels in the area. In fact I'd wager the operation couldn't have been pulled off without pressing into service a tanker, couple of small cargo ships and perhaps a Ro-Ro/passenger ferry or two. The Tarawa itself would probably be sufficent to carry the heavy machinery of the Division (1900 troops, 100 tanks and 160 trucks, probably more vehicles and supplies given the lack of airpower needing the hangars and flight deck) but with 4,000 fully equipped soldiers to move from Germany (I'm guessing Kiel since the German III Army HQ is there and there's a decent port)...

The draft 2nd Marine OOB I've nearly finished leaves just enough AAVPs (about 40, down from over 160 prewar) to shift only about 700 men at a time. Add in the 2 LCUs, 1 LCAC (fuel consumption? YIKES!), and 4 LCPLs and you might be looking at 1000 in one go (probably less as there's very likely to be less of these landing craft available by 2000).