US Police Armored Vehicles

[pmulcahy11b]

Anybody have any handle on what US Police forces or agencies are using what armored vehicles? Or weird things like the Florida Forestry Service, which has a demilled AH-1G for use in fire spotting?

[Rainbow Six]

In 1989 I did the Kennedy Space Centre tour whilst on holiday in Orlando and saw what looked very much like two M113's. iirc they were painted white and had the NASA logo on them.

[cavtroop]

Gwinnett County, GA (I think) has a couple of M114s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLMq6ldwr1E

neat little cupola they have there, with a sniper position inside of it.

Edit: Rainbow - yep, those were M113's. They're supposed to be used for evacuation of the shuttle in case of emergency or something like that.

[pmulcahy11b]

In 1989 I did the Kennedy Space Centre tour whilst on holiday in Orlando and saw what looked very much like two M113's. iirc they were painted white and had the NASA logo on them.

They are for emergency exit from the white room and spacecraft in case of a vehicle fire. You slide down a long wire in a basket and land next to the 113s, get in, and drive away as fast as possible; hopefully, they'll shield you when the rocket blows up (or you're far enough away by then). I think there's a designated bunker they drive to. They've been there since Apollo 7 (I don't know if they've been updated, or they're still plain vanilla M113s.)

[Abbott Shaull]

I know several police agency had retired Peacekeepers and mixture of other Cadillac Cage armor cars out there.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I saw a picture last year some time of a US police armoured vehicle that I think was a modified Saracen APC (modification included removing the centre axle to make it a 4x4 from the original 6x6).
Actually I can't recall if it was a police or sheriff's department but I think it was from one of the southern states.

In an attempt to find it, I've used Google Images with the following search terms: -
US/American Sheriff armoured car
or Sheriff APC
or Police armoured car
or Police APC
They show some interesting pics, everything from M20 Greyhounds, Cadillac Gage Rangers, Cadillac Gage V100 or V150 cars and M75, M114, M577 & M113 tracks as well as one Utah SWAT unit that had a former British Army Humber Pig WAPC and a department from Arizona using a Saracen WAPC (unmodified).
Plus the usual mix of civvy made specialist police vehicles.
It seems a number of the former US military vehicles have been acquired post September 11th 2001 however.

[RN7]

Many US law enforcement agencies uses the Lenco B.E.A.R and BearCat series armoured vehicles, including the New York City, Los Angeles, Anaheim and Dallas PD's, and the Ohio State Highway Patrol among others. The Bearcat is also used by the Army, Navy, Airforce and Marines, and the Department of Defence, Energy and State, and NASA among others.

The Caddilac Gage Ranger (Peacekeeper) is also a popular police vehicle, used by the Washington DC and Austin PD's, and the Florida Highwat Patrol.

The SWAT teams of the San Francisco, Tulsa and Sierra Vista PD each use an ex-British Army Alvis Saracen.

[Canadian Army]

For many years the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) had used Cadillac Gage Commando V-100s. Detroit SWAT also has them as well, but I find the M113 as common for Police units.

[dragoon500ly]

Post 9/11, as the M-113 series is being removed from service, according to the last Congressional Records, over two hundred have been turned over to LEA.

[boogiedowndonovan]

a department from Arizona using a Saracen WAPC (unmodified).
.


San Francisco Police Department uses a Saracen.

Also, wikipedia says that Sierra Vista Police Department uses one. I think that's Sierra Vista, Arizona. Wikipedia also says that the Tulsa, Oklahoma PD uses a Saracen body on a commercial truck body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saracen

[boogiedowndonovan]

For many years the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) had used Cadillac Gage Commando V-100s. Detroit SWAT also has them as well, but I find the M113 as common for Police units.


Looks like the LAPD still uses Cadillac Gage V-100s (I'm just using Google and searching for any city's armored recovery vehicle)

this is some dude's flicker pic.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/badlizard/3031838321/

speaking of Los Angeles PD and armored vehicles, does anyone recall the scene with the LAPD armored car in the Bruce Willis flick Die Hard?

"The quarterback is toast!!!"

[TiggerCCW UK]

speaking of Los Angeles PD and armored vehicles, does anyone recall the scene with the LAPD armored car in the Bruce Willis flick Die Hard?

"The quarterback is toast!!!"

That was an M8 Greyhound IIRC? Would they still have been in used 40+ years after the war?

[TiggerCCW UK]

And its great to know that there are still Saracens rattling around in service - one of my favourite families of vehicles, along with the Humber Pig. Possibly as a result of growing up with them on the streets here - I remember Pigs, Saracens, Saladins, Ferrets and I think I remember seeing Fox armoured cars as well, although I might just be remembering pictures of them.

As an aside what was the APC used in Dragnet? The Tom Hanks/Dan Akroyd film version. From my youthful memories it was an M113, but I'm not sure.

[copeab]

That was an M8 Greyhound IIRC? Would they still have been in used 40+ years after the war?

It might have been an M20 Utility Car, which was basically an M8 without the turret and the interior rearranged with two bench seats. However, the vehicle in the movie lacked the skate ring of the M20 (which mounted a .50-cal Browning) and the turret ring was plated over.

IIRC, the M8 was used into the 80's in some South American countries and the M20 might have been used longer.

[Legbreaker]

Since Police are unlikely to be facing up to anything heavier than assault rifles and shotguns, 50+ year old AFVs are probably more than sufficient for the job. Stick a new engine in them, upgrade the suspension from time to time and they could well see service for decades more to come.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Have not seen them in action yet, but Lincoln Nebraska got two LAV APCs. I think they are going over them and then gonna put them in a garage somewhere.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

San Francisco Police Department uses a Saracen.

Also, wikipedia says that Sierra Vista Police Department uses one. I think that's Sierra Vista, Arizona. Wikipedia also says that the Tulsa, Oklahoma PD uses a Saracen body on a commercial truck body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvis_Saracen

The Tulsa PD vehicle is the Saracen I recall seeing and after spending some time searching for the damned thing, I've found the images I saw thanks to boogiedowndonovan's post referring to the Flicker page.
Here's the pics (now that I look at them again I can see that it's looks more like the hull is mounted on a different chassis rather than modifying the standard Saracen from 6x6 to 4x4 like I initially thought).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tulsabloggers/104982874/in/pool-404166@N23/#/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tulsabloggers/104983357/in/pool-404166@N23

The entire collection of armoured police vehicles can be found here
http://www.flickr.com/groups/404166@N23/

[Abbott Shaull]

In some locations there are M113s used for Forest Fire service.

[Canadian Army]

In May 2007, the Edmonton Police Service accepted the donation of a disarmed Grizzly from the Canadian Forces and in March 2010, the Canadian Forces Donated 2 disarmed Cougar AVGPs to the British Colombia area Royal Canadian Mounted Police for use by the Emergency Response Team.

[dragoon500ly]

In the March, 2011 issue of Tactical Weapons is a nice little write up on the Bucks County, Pennsylvania Emergency Response Teams...of special intrest is the number of armored vehicles used by the ERT. To support three ERTs there are two M-113A3 APCs, one Lenco Bear Cat armored car and one bank-type armored car.

There are two pic of the M-113; the first is an excellent shot of the front and right side. The splash board and smoke dischargers have been removed as well as the weapons mount from the TC's coupla. A police light bar has been mounted above the engine and the vehicle has a gloss dark green paint job with POLICE-RESCUE in white. The second pic shows the left side and left rear of the M-113. While the ramp is down, there is very little detail visible of the interior (DRAT!!!). The rubber shrouds are in place, although pulling the splash board kind of renders these useless.

Still, nice pics and a intresting article!

[HorseSoldier]

My agency has a Lenco Bear (the larger version than the Bear Cat) for SWAT. I've seen a number of other agencies, even relatively small ones, that field surplus M113s. Even for big agencies we're only talking about a handful of vehicles -- I think even LAPD or NYPD would be hard pressed to field a mech infantry company worth of APCs or other AFVs.

[Legbreaker]

It seems inconceivable that any police force would have more than 2 or 3 APCs. I mean, do they really expect to need them all at the same time!? :eek:
An entire company's worth (or nearly) is just mind boggling!

[dragoon500ly]

Bucks County has a pop of about 620,000 in the last cenus, and its one of the larger counties in PA, so two M-113s and 2 armored cars might be considered the high end. Even a city like NYC or LA would be hard pressed to field more than 4-6 APCs, they are specialized vehicles that might see only 2-3 days of use every year, outside of training that is. The only reason why so many M-113s are in LEA hands is because the DoD provides a large amount of surplus kevlar vests and helmets, weapons, gas masks and a handful of armored vehicles to LEA use.

In south Mississippi, the only reason why the sheriff's department and the coastal cities have M-16s/M-4s is because the DoD released them as part of the Bush administration Police grants.

[Panther Al]

There is a whole bunch of reasons that it seems that APC's are popping up all over, but my personal fav was one I was told back years ago after a random check of containers from the PRC revealed that instead of Barbie Dolls, was case after case of brand spanking new AK's, and people started wondering what they didn't catch on the way in.

IMHO, its just a matter of time before some banger/"pro" crook gets his hands on something like a RPG or worse.

[Legbreaker]

I had a friend working in Australian Customs a few years back. Apparently only about 1% of containers are actually searched - there's simply not the manpower available.
However those that are searched can expect to be pulled appart to almost the last nut and bolt - just like a really expensive sports car being imported by a rather obnoxious man once - got stripped to the last component. Oh, and customs aren't obligated to put any of it back together either. ;)

[TiggerCCW UK]

IMHO, its just a matter of time before some banger/"pro" crook gets his hands on something like a RPG or worse.


RPG's and worse (LPO-50 flamethrower anyone?) have cropped up here way too many times over the years, and I consider those using them to be no better than criminals, regardless of their political inclinations/aspirations. Thats probably why the vast majority of our police vehicles are still armoured....

[Abbott Shaull]

There is a whole bunch of reasons that it seems that APC's are popping up all over, but my personal fav was one I was told back years ago after a random check of containers from the PRC revealed that instead of Barbie Dolls, was case after case of brand spanking new AK's, and people started wondering what they didn't catch on the way in.

IMHO, its just a matter of time before some banger/"pro" crook gets his hands on something like a RPG or worse.

What makes you think they haven't. I am sure they a good supply of automatic weapons.

[Rockwolf66]

What makes you think they haven't. I am sure they a good supply of automatic weapons.
As far as smuggling goes has anyone else read up on the Sting involving China Ocean Shipping Company and the port of Oakland?

2,000 Type 56 assault Rifles(with some NK marked rifles tossed in) intended for the US streets and the smugglers were giving prices for RPGs mortars and anti-aircraft missiles. Not cool at all as the cops don't have anything that can counter that level of firepower.

I've heard rumors about semi-trucks filled with weapons being found in mexico and one has to wonder where the cartels are getting weapons from outside of stealing them from the federales.

Frankly I'm suprised that I've seen only one M-249 in the hands of Texas law enforcement.

[Abbott Shaull]

As far as smuggling goes has anyone else read up on the Sting involving China Ocean Shipping Company and the port of Oakland?

2,000 Type 56 assault Rifles(with some NK marked rifles tossed in) intended for the US streets and the smugglers were giving prices for RPGs mortars and anti-aircraft missiles. Not cool at all as the cops don't have anything that can counter that level of firepower.

I've heard rumors about semi-trucks filled with weapons being found in mexico and one has to wonder where the cartels are getting weapons from outside of stealing them from the federales.

Frankly I'm suprised that I've seen only one M-249 in the hands of Texas law enforcement.

Like I said what makes anyone think they don't already have their hand on said weapons. The only reason they don't use them on the usual basis is it would change the dynamics of what law enforcement would be equipped with and give them idea what to expect.

[Panther Al]

Ok, let's say that the crips and bloods go nuclear on each other, and break out the really heavy stuff. How do you think the gov and local law enforcement would react?

[TiggerCCW UK]

Ok, let's say that the crips and bloods go nuclear on each other, and break out the really heavy stuff. How do you think the gov and local law enforcement would react?

Raid gun shops, same as during the North Hollywood shootout? Start handing captured gang weapons out to the police?

[dragoon500ly]

Ok, let's say that the crips and bloods go nuclear on each other, and break out the really heavy stuff. How do you think the gov and local law enforcement would react?

For the sake of arguement, say that the crips and bloods break out the mortars, RPGs and HMGs and go to town on each other...I can see the LAPD freaking out and the National Guard being called out, but it would take the President to declare martial law or perhaps a Presidental Finding that has the crips/bloods acting in armed rebellion for the Regular services to be called in.

Still, it would be intresting to see the USS New Jersey cruising offshore and dropping 16-inch HE on the gangs' headquarters...maybe a squadron of A-10s rolling in hot with Mavericks and 30mm?

[pmulcahy11b]

Still, it would be intresting to see the USS New Jersey cruising offshore and dropping 16-inch HE on the gangs' headquarters...maybe a squadron of A-10s rolling in hot with Mavericks and 30mm?

The New Jersey is not in service anymore...so how about an AC-130 instead?

Think about the press! Anyone remember when the Philadelphia PD dropped a bomb (just a package of explosives, really) on the apartment building where the radical group MOVES was holed up? The police got eviscerated in the press for months.

[Abbott Shaull]

If it did happen, and let not just use the the local gang from L.A. The local cops will be raiding and taking whatever firepower wherever they can get their hands on it, including raiding local Armories before the National Guard were local activated.

No matter where it happened, I am sure the local National Guard would be called up. Where it would get sketchy is when and if the US Federal Government authorize the use of the US Military against them.

[Abbott Shaull]

The New Jersey is not in service anymore...so how about an AC-130 instead?

Think about the press! Anyone remember when the Philadelphia PD dropped a bomb (just a package of explosives, really) on the apartment building where the radical group MOVES was holed up? The police got eviscerated in the press for months.

Yeah so do the Gangs. They realize as well as most local/State governments that there are limits that people are willing to accept. The general population don't want to feel as if they live in a police state. The local Law Enforcement knows that for most things they can handle, and many try not to think about the what if the sh!t hit the fan type stuff. They know it there, but as long as it doesn't happen on my beat they try not to dwell on it.

One thing about that one failed bank robbery, with the two bank robbers wearing the home-made bullet proof armor and how ill prepared local law enforcement was for it drove home a point. It part of the reason why many local police agency have went out of the way to better prepare their officers and SWAT teams. With some going so far as arming their some regular patrol officer with 5.56mm weapons instead of riot guns.

[Panther Al]

Question was asked in seriousness, and I appreciate the responses. The one question that comes to mind from what I have read, is why should we assume that the gangs are willing to play by the unwritten rules?

But not just the gangs either, there are many groups that if they could get the firepower would use it.

Yes, the ANG will be called out, and the fact that a *lot* of Iraq vets are on the beat these days will help, but what of the long term effects?

[pmulcahy11b]

In T2K, a lot of major cities will become highly factionalized ans split along gang neighborhoods. With the dearth of police available, their conflicts would intensify -- except possibly in the Southwest, where they might find themselves as strange bedfellows in resistance to Mexican and Soviet forces -- or collaborators.

[Abbott Shaull]

Question was asked in seriousness, and I appreciate the responses. The one question that comes to mind from what I have read, is why should we assume that the gangs are willing to play by the unwritten rules?


It would cut into their other profits in other interests they oversea. I mean if they went around using their automatic weapons and other firepower they have at will, they will come under the microscope from the people they are supposedly trying to help and recruit.

[Legbreaker]

Ok, let's say that the crips and bloods go nuclear on each other, and break out the really heavy stuff. How do you think the gov and local law enforcement would react?

With popcorn and deck chairs. :p

[cavtroop]

Yes, the ANG will be called out, and the fact that a *lot* of Iraq vets are on the beat these days will help, but what of the long term effects?

And a *lot* of gang-bangers have Iraq/AFG experience too.

lets hope it never comes to this.

[Panther Al]

When I was a recruiter they was big on trying to keep the bangers out. But what I saw while on line units was those efforts was a failure.

[dragoon500ly]

Question was asked in seriousness, and I appreciate the responses. The one question that comes to mind from what I have read, is why should we assume that the gangs are willing to play by the unwritten rules?

But not just the gangs either, there are many groups that if they could get the firepower would use it.

Yes, the ANG will be called out, and the fact that a *lot* of Iraq vets are on the beat these days will help, but what of the long term effects?

Gang bangers, at least the sucessful ones, would realize that there are certain limits that cannot be crossed. They are often buried deep in the production and distribution of illegal drugs, and you can't sell when everyone is busy using AKs on everything moving. This is part of the reason that the gang wars tend to be short, but bloody affairs, sure you have to earn your street cred, but you are also out there trying to control terriority and sell your product.

The biggest problem would be the smaller gangs, trying to cut out their own territory and get their piece of the pie, then it would become a race as to who gets them first, the larger established gangs or LEA.

While the initial thread is about gangers, I think the ones most likely to go full-auto off the deep end would be the various "militias" around the country. Especially after nukes started popping and fed/state/local government started breaking down. A lot of these groups are counting on this so that they can start their own countries ala New America...this may be the largest according to GDW...but they certainly wouldn't be the only ones.

[HorseSoldier]

Street gangs (US and otherwise) get away with what the system lets them get away with. In Brazilian cities, drug gangs maintain fortified no-go zones and when the police roll into those areas they do company and battalion level sweeps and expect to fight for ground to do it. In the US, we don't see anything on that same scale, but certainly have areas in major urban areas where a single officer or pair of guys in a single patrol car cannot safely work in.

The only thing that keeps things at a low simmer (US scenario) and not a full boil Brazilian style is that the first time someone tried to establish a serious no-go zone backed up by major firepower, they'd be crushed. But if they weren't because resources or will weren't there, it'd become a growing problem.

I could see suppressing something like this definitely involving deployment of the National Guard, though primarily in a supporting role for law enforcement. Folks in America prefer to see cops and not soldiers arresting people.

[Abbott Shaull]

It is one of the reason why each State is to maintain National Guard, and why no matter what they unit might be trained for militarily, they are trained to help local, county, and State agencies as needed. Part of the reason why many State National Guard try to have an Engineer unit and Military Police units of some type as well as the combat arms and support units. One of the many reasons too why the Army National Guard in each State usually has several detachment to spread the force out, so in theory to be better able to get help where it is needed faster.

There are some States where none of their National Guard units have only combat training for if they are federalized and the units need to help out when called up. Similar to having Regular US Army Artillery who would act as fire support unit during the day and infantry at night, or Armor units who would act as Infantry or on Convoy escort duty.

Worse is that during the last 9 years many times when they were needed for Civilian relief missions the Guard units weren't home, they were overseas, and with some of these units having been deployed up to three time or mores. It is also one of the unwritten reason why Guard combat units are still kept in certain states too. The Federal Government and some State Government realize that in some locales of have control and having lawless regions is a very thin line that is only matter time before it can be crossed.

At times especially the combat units with their dual purpose when they are still at home, helps makes it where at time their Officers will think outside of the box too.

[Abbott Shaull]

By twilight 2000 standard their is very little difference in Militia/Regular Military unit/Law Enforcement unit/Gang/Marauders other than how the locals view them. Some place will lump them all in the same group, especially in areas where food is running low and it may be what they have to pay their 'taxes' with.

While other location will view them all differently. Say Marauder group or gang who go out and bring back loot they share with the population of their home base. Or County that has well organize Sheriff and part-time militia where they keep the bandit at bay, and crime is kept at tolerable rate, even if their is some corruption. Or something like the Free City of Krakow where a military unit has stayed in place, helping to train local militia, and perform the function of local police force or have specialize units that carry out those function. While the regular troop take a proactive in clear the region of any bandits and marauders who show up.

Even today like has been pointed out, especially in the larger cities there are place where Police units stay out of unless they have back-up with them at time. Again there places like K.I. Sawyer where the old Airbase is now serving as place where closet community for Marquette, MI. One of the thing with some of the non-compete clauses people had place in renting commercial property and lot of the people live out there are on welfare and large number are into drugs. Crime is everyday fact of life, Marquette County Sheriff Department, Michigan State Police, and township police department in Guinn, Michigan don't have enough officers to have full time presence on the old base. Marquette County is one of the 5 largest counties in State of Michigan, with very light population density county-wide, but it sees the same big-city crimes that happen in places like Detroit, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and other large cities on regular basis. Not daily, but enough to that it does have certain elements of the community frustrated, and only matter time.

Much like when I lived in Detroit Lakes, MN. When ever a car was reported stolen in are near Detroit Lakes the odds were likely that the vehicle wasn't bound for chop shop, but bound for the Indian Reservation just north of town out in the back woods where the stolen vehicle would be burned after people got done joy riding and spending the evening drinking....

[pmulcahy11b]

I was just doing some research on the LAV-300 and found out that the Wichita Sheriffs Department has a LAV-300. It seems to be controversial.

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/jul/18/the-lav-300-its-the-sheriffs-new-urban-tank/

I apologize -- I just checked that link to read it again and remind myself what I was talking about at the time, and it's been pulled.

[Olefin]

Saw a Bearcat while out for my walk today at lunch (pizza place nearby that cops frequent) and that lead me to this thread

There are actually a lot of armored military vehicles in the hands of police - the question is what time frame are you looking at

Saw this article online - http://www.the109.org/2015/12/28/special-project-to-protect-and-to-serve/

Gave some details on equipment that police organizations had received since 2006 from the US military - including 432 MRAP's and 400 plus other armored and military vehicles -

gives an example of a county in Texas

Since 2006, Tarrant County has a combined total of over 72 assault rifles, 29 night vision pieces, two mine resistant ambush protection vehicles (MRAPs), and one other armored vehicle, according to the Department of Defense.

and then gives this nice figure about how many vehicles have been given to law enforcement since 1990

5,512 armored and mine resistant vehicles

as for whether a municipality might have the equivalent in armored vehicles to put together an armored company lets look at LA

Now keep in mind this is more for Twilight 2013 and not the classic game

Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department – Special Enforcement Bureau ×6 (One B.E.A.R, three BearCats, two Parademic or MedCats)

Los Angeles Police Department – S.W.A.T ×4 (One B.E.A.R, two BearCats and one MedCat variant)

Meaning you have ten armored cars right there before you even get into anything else they may have

[rcaf_777]

Anybody have any handle on what US Police forces or agencies are using what armored vehicles? Or weird things like the Florida Forestry Service, which has a demilled AH-1G for use in fire spotting?

They use them in California too, here is a few more old warbrids that found new homes with police department

In 1989 I did the Kennedy Space Centre tour whilst on holiday in Orlando and saw what looked very much like two M113's. iirc they were painted white and had the NASA logo on them.

Yes NASA dose have M113 here is a photo of one (Rescue Vehicle #1)

[swaghauler]

Check out both LENCO and TEXAS ARMORING'S websites for "reconditioned" armored vehicles as well. Many of these are police "turn ins" once the powertrain has so many hours on it.

[unkated]

Ok, let's say that the crips and bloods go nuclear on each other, and break out the really heavy stuff. How do you think the gov and local law enforcement would react?

** Ring, Ring! **

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** Ring, Ring! **

"Ach, I vill get it myelf. Verdammt hausfrau..."

** Ring, Ring! **

"Ya, ya. Schwarzenenegger residence.... Ya, dis is the Govenator."

"Vat? They are vat?"

"Okay, ya. I vill take care of it. Text me the address.... About fifteen minutes - maybe tventy if there is traffic."

"Maria! I am going down to the armory and den I haff to go out for an errand. Venn is dinner?"

(female voice) "Six thirty, dear. Remember, we are having company!."

"Don't worry... I'll be back."






Uncle Ted :D

[Olefin]

the worry over the Crips and Bloods having anti-tank or anti-air weaponry is very real by the way

during the riots in LA in the 90's (I was living there then) the news media was reporting that the military was preparing to possibly be engaged by gang bangers who were armed with LAW rockets - which were reported as being in small numbers in the hands of the Crips and Bloods

and considering that empty rocket launcher tubes have been turned in to the police in Los Angeles during gun buy backs on at least two occasions it is very likely they did and may still have those types of weapons

[rcaf_777]

the worry over the Crips and Bloods having anti-tank or anti-air weaponry is very real by the way

during the riots in LA in the 90's (I was living there then) the news media was reporting that the military was preparing to possibly be engaged by gang bangers who were armed with LAW rockets - which were reported as being in small numbers in the hands of the Crips and Bloods

and considering that empty rocket launcher tubes have been turned in to the police in Los Angeles during gun buy backs on at least two occasions it is very likely they did and may still have those types of weapons

Empty rocket launcher tubes turn up all the time, a lot of army surplus stores sell them. The ones the LAPD found were clearly army training devices. Why else would why they be marked trainer? TSA also found an empty tube in someone checked suitcase. Another one was found in New Jersey on some guys lawn lol, they not a danger once they have been fired.

Let me know when they find a real one fully loaded or an there is a explosion caused by one.

[Rockwolf66]

Empty rocket launcher tubes turn up all the time, a lot of army surplus stores sell them. The ones the LAPD found were clearly army training devices. Why else would why they be marked trainer? TSA also found an empty tube in someone checked suitcase. Another one was found in New Jersey on some guys lawn lol, they not a danger once they have been fired.

Let me know when they find a real one fully loaded or an there is a explosion caused by one.

So how about an Undercover BATFE Agent posing with a MANPADS? Yes some gangs do have ordinance and thankfully they don't usually use such things. Then again in 1995 the Banditos fired two AT-4 rockets into a Hells Angel's clubhouse.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z320/Rockwolf66/Random%20Stuff/Jay-Dobyns_zpswiih3cs4.jpg

[rcaf_777]

So how about an Undercover BATFE Agent posing with a MANPADS? Yes some gangs do have ordinance and thankfully they don't usually use such things. Then again in 1995 the Banditos fired two AT-4 rockets into a Hells Angel's clubhouse.

Neither one of these support your theory of US gangs have rocket launchers

The 1995 incident with the Banditos and Hell Angels happen in Sweden, not the US. the Anti-tank weapons were stolen from one of many weapons caches the army had placed in the country side to provide quick reaction to a Soviet Invasion during the cold war.

The picture you show is of former BATF Agent Jay Dobyns, it is displayed on his website, with the caption under cover with stinger in China Lake California 1990. Did he buy it from someone? or was he using it as part of sting operation? The whole thing looks odd and it hard to make a lot of details or the colour which would let us know if it is a real weapon system and not a trainer.

[TitusPullo]

Empty rocket launcher tubes turn up all the time, a lot of army surplus stores sell them. The ones the LAPD found were clearly army training devices. Why else would why they be marked trainer? TSA also found an empty tube in someone checked suitcase. Another one was found in New Jersey on some guys lawn lol, they not a danger once they have been fired.

Let me know when they find a real one fully loaded or an there is a explosion caused by one.

Having been in the 7th ID at the time of the riots. We were deployed to LA on that Saturday, I remember because we were on DRF1 and only aloud to travel 20 miles off the planet. Me and some of my buddies were getting ready to go out that night and party, but CQ had other plans. He had his runner come up and started yelling "Blue Bayonet!" So we were of course pissed and found out real quick we were heading to LA.

As I was in the divisional LRSD. We were part of the 1st troops in LA. Me and my platoon showed up on the tarmac wearing our war paint and had our cabbage patch tops on. We didnt get the memo stating no camo or helmets. Our 1st Sgt chewed us out. We got bullshit riot helmets when we got to LAX, but quickly put them in our rucks.

We were trucked over to a place called Huntigan park in LA, I thought it was a park not a freaking city, from there we were dispersed out into South Central. I loved it. We were hearing the rumors about anti tank and AA weapons but it was all talk.

I was a 203 gunner and the only 40 MM I was issued were star cluster, to be used in case our comms went down and we were in contact. Our SAW gunners were given only magazines, but our armorer, who was with us, hooked our gunners up with 6 drums each, just in case. LOL Then to really piss us off we got 3 or 4 CA NG assigned to us and not one of them had firing pins for there m16's, and had only two mags apiece. WTF, over. So our Armorer hooked them up with pins and spare mags.

We guarded a power substation for the duration, 7 days. The citizens welcomed us and even kept us supplied with coffee and donuts. Not one business was touched while we were guarding them.

As soon as we had our perimeter set up and established comms with Batt. we applied our war paint and boonies. The citizens and cops loved it but the shitbird gangbangers actually complained to the NG command, they laughed at em so we kept it on. The shitbirds were constantly probing us but we always had overwatch up and were constantly on 50% security the whole time. We always let them know they were number one when the came around 4 deep in the Impalas. Our ROE were not to have a mag in the weapon unless we had a deliberate act of aggression toward us or citizens. Yeah right. I asked our 1st SGT if we get into a firefight do we get a star on our CIBs. I was doing push up for an hour. But it was worth it:) It was my funnest deployment.

[ArmySGT.]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M0nLPt4F4PI/Vf8lim6ZChI/AAAAAAAAABo/juN5snSfJTc/s1600/fb_fan_15_like.png

[.45cultist]

I know several police agency had retired Peacekeepers and mixture of other Cadillac Cage armor cars out there.

KCPD has a Peacekeeper, Missouri Highway Patrol uses V100's or
V150's.

[Olefin]

http://www.hstoday.us/briefings/daily-news-analysis/single-article/anti-tank-rocket-launcher-c-4-found-along-rio-grande-underscores-concerns-over-cartel-attack-threats/340aeedc6028cd8ba95bf21cd9643688.html

From 9/20/2011

Last month, US Border Patrol agents found a dangerous cache of military weapons along the Rio Grande while patrolling the river near Fronton, Texas not far south of the Falcon Lake dam that the Los Zetas Cartel had earlier plotted to blow up, intelligence had indicated.

The cache also was found in an area intelligence more recently indicated the Gulf Cartel had ordered its cross-border smugglers to engage Border Patrol and any other US border region law enforcement officers who get in the way of narco-smuggling operations.

Similarly, several years ago an FBI San Antonio Field Office intelligence advisory strongly warned that the Sinaloa Cartel also had ordered its street enforcers to engage US law enforcement officers to protect cartel smuggling operations across the border into the United States.

Inside the black bag Border Patrol agents found south of Falcon Lake partially hidden by brush was a Light Anti-tank Weapon (LAW) “loaded with a rocket projectile,” according to a source familiar with the seized weapons, a grenade launcher, “TNT cylinder” bombs, six automatic assault rifles and numerous extended capacity magazines, “standard M-4 hand guards” for the M16/AR15 assault rifle and a 2.5 pound C-4 “charge demolition” block in its US military olive drab Mylar wrapping.

So the answer is yes there could be gangs armed with anti-tank weapons - the question is how many other LAW's actually got into cartel gangs hands and their surrogates here in the US

[.45cultist]

Neither one of these support your theory of US gangs have rocket launchers

The 1995 incident with the Banditos and Hell Angels happen in Sweden, not the US. the Anti-tank weapons were stolen from one of many weapons caches the army had placed in the country side to provide quick reaction to a Soviet Invasion during the cold war.

The picture you show is of former BATF Agent Jay Dobyns, it is displayed on his website, with the caption under cover with stinger in China Lake California 1990. Did he buy it from someone? or was he using it as part of sting operation? The whole thing looks odd and it hard to make a lot of details or the colour which would let us know if it is a real weapon system and not a trainer.

It has the "soup can" inserted, don't those have a limited active life? Maybe he was getting instruction on the fun stuff.

[Rockwolf66]

http://www.hstoday.us/briefings/daily-news-analysis/single-article/anti-tank-rocket-launcher-c-4-found-along-rio-grande-underscores-concerns-over-cartel-attack-threats/340aeedc6028cd8ba95bf21cd9643688.html

From 9/20/2011

Last month, US Border Patrol agents found a dangerous cache of military weapons along the Rio Grande while patrolling the river near Fronton, Texas not far south of the Falcon Lake dam that the Los Zetas Cartel had earlier plotted to blow up, intelligence had indicated.

The cache also was found in an area intelligence more recently indicated the Gulf Cartel had ordered its cross-border smugglers to engage Border Patrol and any other US border region law enforcement officers who get in the way of narco-smuggling operations.

Similarly, several years ago an FBI San Antonio Field Office intelligence advisory strongly warned that the Sinaloa Cartel also had ordered its street enforcers to engage US law enforcement officers to protect cartel smuggling operations across the border into the United States.

Inside the black bag Border Patrol agents found south of Falcon Lake partially hidden by brush was a Light Anti-tank Weapon (LAW) “loaded with a rocket projectile,” according to a source familiar with the seized weapons, a grenade launcher, “TNT cylinder” bombs, six automatic assault rifles and numerous extended capacity magazines, “standard M-4 hand guards” for the M16/AR15 assault rifle and a 2.5 pound C-4 “charge demolition” block in its US military olive drab Mylar wrapping.

So the answer is yes there could be gangs armed with anti-tank weapons - the question is how many other LAW's actually got into cartel gangs hands and their surrogates here in the US

More than anyone in law enforcement wants. Through various sources it's estimated that The Hell's Angels have had a couple of dozen rocket launchers in their armory. Other gangs have been caught with rocket launchers. Most have been fired off LAW or AT-4 styled launchers. A few have been live either reloaded in an improvised manner or a stolen live launcher.

[WallShadow]

Ok, let's say that the crips and bloods go nuclear on each other, and break out the really heavy stuff. How do you think the gov and local law enforcement would react?

For my money, contain them, constrict the perimeter, wait for one to get seriously short-handed, then start taking out anybody who showed colors.

Oh, yeah. Announce to the survivors that anyone wearing BOTH red and blue would be permitted to advance to an area where they could surrender, be photographed and be processed. Now THAT would cause a lot of soulsearching and quick negotiating or blowing away the nearest opposing color to get one of each. Plus, the photographic evidence of gang members' turncoating for a short-term advantage may not sit well with the true-believers in either gang, or with their street cred. Lots of PsyOps could prove effective and have long-lasting effects in defanging the gangs.

[bobcat]

honestly i would see it more plausible to see a rift and significant altercation between US gangs and mexican cartels. some unforeseen shift in the power dynamics such as new supply lines from china allowing gangs to secure alternative drug supplies which could lead the cartels to take some action which would kick off a significant confrontation.

following this line we would see the cartels with weapons procured from the mexican military(which is a known source of arms for many cartels) and their madmax style armored vehicles making gains against the gangs which would respond initially with IED's and whatever arms they have on hand and depending on how laterally diversified their new supply line is perhaps even warsaw pact issue anti-armor weapons.

this scenario would place the federal and state governments in a peculiar situation. support either side against the other would be political suicide, but the resources to respond in kind to both sides just aren't there. to completely ruin contingency planning the option of trying to ignore the situation would be untenable as civilian casualties and collateral damage mounts and as both sides begin absorbing smaller gangs and cartels in an effort to outman, outgun, and outflank their respective adversaries.

granted if such a scenario were to even become 'highly likely' the US Attorney General would quickly ready the surprisingly limited paperwork to suspend posse comitatus and allow federal military forces to assist in law enforcement activities(it has been done before with far less provocation). the interesting thing to consider is what if such an event occurred during the lead up to WW3? say a modified TW2013 scenario. LEA would have a clear case to request and possibly even receive last gen IFV's and anti-armor weapons. there would be a massive buildup of military power in police and even civilian hands as both agencies and civilians remember such an event would be concerned about it occuring again. this could radically change the prospects of an invasion from the south.

[Tegyrius]

In a strange intersection of worlds, the cartels are now getting into fuel theft:

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/mexico-violence-oil/

- C.

[pmulcahy11b]

this scenario would place the federal and state governments in a peculiar situation. support either side against the other would be political suicide, but the resources to respond in kind to both sides just aren't there. to completely ruin contingency planning the option of trying to ignore the situation would be untenable as civilian casualties and collateral damage mounts and as both sides begin absorbing smaller gangs and cartels in an effort to outman, outgun, and outflank their respective adversaries.



And just prior to the war, you end up with Border Police and border police departments kitted out like many West Berlin police units during the Cold War -- essentially light motorized infantry units. Delicious!

[pmulcahy11b]

Similarly, several years ago an FBI San Antonio Field Office intelligence advisory strongly warned that the Sinaloa Cartel also had ordered its street enforcers to engage US law enforcement officers to protect cartel smuggling operations across the border into the United States.



It's well known to us in San Antonio that the East Side and China Grove are rife with Mexican Drug Gangs. And that they're spreading out into the rest of the city, and some of them even live in the Dominion (the absolute richest part of the city). And that they've recruited and are recruiting from the "regular" gangs in the city. And that if you're a white boy like me you don't want to get anywhere near the former Alazon Apache Courts housing development. Or pretty much any low-income housing development. In my neighborhood, tagging, the first sign of a gang forming, started about five years ago. And I'm not allowed to own even a BB Gun because they think that because I'm mentally ill I'll spend all my money amassing an arsenal and I could go postal somewhere any moment. That's the world I live in.

Sorry for getting preachy.

[pmulcahy11b]

Having been in the 7th ID at the time of the riots. We were deployed to LA on that Saturday, I remember because we were on DRF1 and only aloud to travel 20 miles off the planet. Me and some of my buddies were getting ready to go out that night and party, but CQ had other plans. He had his runner come up and started yelling "Blue Bayonet!" So we were of course pissed and found out real quick we were heading to LA.

As I was in the divisional LRSD. We were part of the 1st troops in LA. Me and my platoon showed up on the tarmac wearing our war paint and had our cabbage patch tops on. We didnt get the memo stating no camo or helmets. Our 1st Sgt chewed us out. We got bullshit riot helmets when we got to LAX, but quickly put them in our rucks.

We were trucked over to a place called Huntigan park in LA, I thought it was a park not a freaking city, from there we were dispersed out into South Central. I loved it. We were hearing the rumors about anti tank and AA weapons but it was all talk.

I was a 203 gunner and the only 40 MM I was issued were star cluster, to be used in case our comms went down and we were in contact. Our SAW gunners were given only magazines, but our armorer, who was with us, hooked our gunners up with 6 drums each, just in case. LOL Then to really piss us off we got 3 or 4 CA NG assigned to us and not one of them had firing pins for there m16's, and had only two mags apiece. WTF, over. So our Armorer hooked them up with pins and spare mags.

We guarded a power substation for the duration, 7 days. The citizens welcomed us and even kept us supplied with coffee and donuts. Not one business was touched while we were guarding them.

As soon as we had our perimeter set up and established comms with Batt. we applied our war paint and boonies. The citizens and cops loved it but the shitbird gangbangers actually complained to the NG command, they laughed at em so we kept it on. The shitbirds were constantly probing us but we always had overwatch up and were constantly on 50% security the whole time. We always let them know they were number one when the came around 4 deep in the Impalas. Our ROE were not to have a mag in the weapon unless we had a deliberate act of aggression toward us or citizens. Yeah right. I asked our 1st SGT if we get into a firefight do we get a star on our CIBs. I was doing push up for an hour. But it was worth it:) It was my funnest deployment.

I love our political leadership sometimes. "Let someone else make the tough decisions, I have a fundraiser to go to."

I can't possibly express how pathetically, idiotically, moronically STUPID our leadership was to your unit at that time (and don't worry, it WILL happen again). I'm glad your unit had the courage and balls that our leadership apparently lacked completely at that time. I salute you and your fellow soldiers.

[pmulcahy11b]

...they not a danger once they have been fired.


Yes, but with a bit of skills and a few tools, you can make a decent improvised mortar with one of those tubes. That's why, in Vietnam, they began crushing all the expended rocket tubes they could recover from the battlefield under tracked armored vehicles -- the VC were doing just that with distressing regularity. You can also make a good canister-round-type boobytrap from one. And then the VC began to boobytrap the expended tubes left on the battlefield...

I got lucky on the timing of when I went to ROTC and into the Army. There were a lot of E7s, E8s, E9s, O5s, and O6s who were about to retire and willing to tell young pups like me about stuff they encountered in Vietnam -- stuff they might not have talked about to young troops like me at an earlier point in their careers.

[bobcat]

And just prior to the war, you end up with Border Police and border police departments kitted out like many West Berlin police units during the Cold War -- essentially light motorized infantry units. Delicious!

i think they would look more like current Brigade RSTA squadrons. after all they would lack the manpower of a full infantry unit and they would still have a large amount of ground to cover so i could see lots of surveillance equipment and light armored vehicles supporting squad level actions. you might see larger actions when a significant force is located and identified but those would be multi-agency.

[swaghauler]

It's well known to us in San Antonio that the East Side and China Grove are rife with Mexican Drug Gangs. And that they're spreading out into the rest of the city, and some of them even live in the Dominion (the absolute richest part of the city). And that they've recruited and are recruiting from the "regular" gangs in the city. And that if you're a white boy like me you don't want to get anywhere near the former Alazon Apache Courts housing development. Or pretty much any low-income housing development. In my neighborhood, tagging, the first sign of a gang forming, started about five years ago. And I'm not allowed to own even a BB Gun because they think that because I'm mentally ill I'll spend all my money amassing an arsenal and I could go postal somewhere any moment. That's the world I live in.

Sorry for getting preachy.

I'd be "preachy" too. You DON'T have to be defenseless in your home though. I'd go "Medieval" with my defense. A good bow, sling, crossbow, or atlatl can kill just as effectively as a gun at short range and isn't prohibited/registered in most jurisdictions. I'd try to find a good bow with a 50lb draw weight and practice with it. An older fiberglass bow will run about $100 dollars and the practice counts as exercise. A sling can be carried very easily and ammo is readily available anywhere there are rocks. You can even make a "survival bow" using YouTube videos for reference.

When out, I'd carry a tactical Flashlight like the SureFire or Streamlight. You can "flash" a target and blind them but the flashlight also makes a GOOD IMPACT WEAPON. Using it like a Kubotan, you should strike for the bridge of the nose or throat with the Bezel to disable your aggressor. You then run/break contact if practical.

Projectile weapons are drastically "underestimated" in the Twilight2000 rules. I could see European towns arming their citizens with bows and crossbows for defense. These weapons can kill at short range every bit as effectively as guns and are easier to make and provide ammo for. the long tradition Europe has with medieval weapons would make this easier there. Imagine a dozen men armed with crossbows guarding a bridge taking turns firing while their partner reloads. If the opposing force doesn't have "overwhelming firepower," they may decide that town is too tough a nut to crack.

[swaghauler]

honestly i would see it more plausible to see a rift and significant altercation between US gangs and mexican cartels. some unforeseen shift in the power dynamics such as new supply lines from china allowing gangs to secure alternative drug supplies which could lead the cartels to take some action which would kick off a significant confrontation.

following this line we would see the cartels with weapons procured from the mexican military(which is a known source of arms for many cartels) and their madmax style armored vehicles making gains against the gangs which would respond initially with IED's and whatever arms they have on hand and depending on how laterally diversified their new supply line is perhaps even warsaw pact issue anti-armor weapons.

this scenario would place the federal and state governments in a peculiar situation. support either side against the other would be political suicide, but the resources to respond in kind to both sides just aren't there. to completely ruin contingency planning the option of trying to ignore the situation would be untenable as civilian casualties and collateral damage mounts and as both sides begin absorbing smaller gangs and cartels in an effort to outman, outgun, and outflank their respective adversaries.

granted if such a scenario were to even become 'highly likely' the US Attorney General would quickly ready the surprisingly limited paperwork to suspend posse comitatus and allow federal military forces to assist in law enforcement activities(it has been done before with far less provocation). the interesting thing to consider is what if such an event occurred during the lead up to WW3? say a modified TW2013 scenario. LEA would have a clear case to request and possibly even receive last gen IFV's and anti-armor weapons. there would be a massive buildup of military power in police and even civilian hands as both agencies and civilians remember such an event would be concerned about it occuring again. this could radically change the prospects of an invasion from the south.

In my Timeline, Mexico and Guatemala are "Narco-Puppet States" controlled by the Cartels. The US is actively pushing for a "regime change" in Mexico which prompts the Cartels to give AKs and RPGs purchased from Mexico's new friend/benefactor Russia (in exchange for much needed hard currency) to the drug gangs which are loyal to the Cartels. This "escalation" causes opposing gangs and local police to "up gun" as well. The ever more aggressive US policy towards Mexico forces the Cartels to start buying "big." T55Ms with reactive armor and thermal imaging, older MCLOS & SACLOS AT & AA missiles as well as other surplus AFVs. The Russians even send trainers (under the name "Division Cuba" to fool US intelligence agencies about its real objective) to aid the Cartels in resisting US attempts to overthrow their regime. The US-Mexican (and Guatemalan) war starts after the US seizes Mexican oil platforms in the Gulf and bombs her refineries to prevent the Russians from receiving Mexican assistance during the Twilight War.

[swaghauler]

For my money, contain them, constrict the perimeter, wait for one to get seriously short-handed, then start taking out anybody who showed colors.

Oh, yeah. Announce to the survivors that anyone wearing BOTH red and blue would be permitted to advance to an area where they could surrender, be photographed and be processed. Now THAT would cause a lot of soulsearching and quick negotiating or blowing away the nearest opposing color to get one of each. Plus, the photographic evidence of gang members' turncoating for a short-term advantage may not sit well with the true-believers in either gang, or with their street cred. Lots of PsyOps could prove effective and have long-lasting effects in defanging the gangs.

LE already confiscates "colors" from both gangs and "outlaw motorcycle clubs" as the Supreme Court ruled (in a case against the Hell's Angels) that a club's colors can be tantamount to an "implement of crime." We also routinely process the "tatts" of known gang members as those "tatts" often form a "resume" of the perp's criminal history. There are books out there available to both LE and private citizens (for security officers) that detail what tatts and phrases mean so that you can "educate yourself" about people you may have to deal with on the street.

In my game, I allow either a "Streetwise" or "Forensics" test to identify these symbols as well as "tags" (graffiti that you find on gang turf).

[pmulcahy11b]

When out, I'd carry a tactical Flashlight like the SureFire or Streamlight. You can "flash" a target and blind them but the flashlight also makes a GOOD IMPACT WEAPON. Using it like a Kubotan, you should strike for the bridge of the nose or throat with the Bezel to disable your aggressor. You then run/break contact if practical.

I'm guessing that what you call a Kubotan is what I call a Yawara. (I'm guessing we studied different martial arts.) I carry one of those flashlights in my pocket, and have several in the house and another in the car. They sell them by ton down at Walmart for a dollar apiece, so I can have plenty of them and if I break one, so what.

And unfortunately, I'm not allowed bows or crossbows. Not sure what Texas says about knives, however...I have an ornamental Wakizashi in my closet, and while it doesn't have much of a blade, it does have a wicked point.

[rcaf_777]

Here an M114 Command and Reconnaissance Carrier in police service

[WallShadow]

Here an M114 Command and Reconnaissance Carrier in police service

Let's hope it is more functional in its current employ than it was when originally fielded.
What sheriff's dept is it serving in?

[rcaf_777]

It belong to Gwinnett County Sheriff Office in Georgia

Here some more info

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=770347

Shots of the inside

http://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?t=114627

[WallShadow]

It belong to Gwinnett County Sheriff Office in Georgia

Here some more info

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=770347

Shots of the inside

http://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?t=114627

I could see an APC working at a SWAT bash--for the M114, replace the 20mm autocannon with a .50 BMG Barrett Anti-Materiel gun with match ammo and lots of radar, light-intensifying, etc., sensors and such.

[.45cultist]

I'm guessing that what you call a Kubotan is what I call a Yawara. (I'm guessing we studied different martial arts.) I carry one of those flashlights in my pocket, and have several in the house and another in the car. They sell them by ton down at Walmart for a dollar apiece, so I can have plenty of them and if I break one, so what.

And unfortunately, I'm not allowed bows or crossbows. Not sure what Texas says about knives, however...I have an ornamental Wakizashi in my closet, and while it doesn't have much of a blade, it does have a wicked point.

There is a ballpoint pen that does similar duty. Navy guys tell of making Monkey fist knots with large ball bearings as an improvised self defense weapons overseas.

[Draq]

I'm guessing that what you call a Kubotan is what I call a Yawara. (I'm guessing we studied different martial arts.) I carry one of those flashlights in my pocket, and have several in the house and another in the car. They sell them by ton down at Walmart for a dollar apiece, so I can have plenty of them and if I break one, so what.

And unfortunately, I'm not allowed bows or crossbows. Not sure what Texas says about knives, however...I have an ornamental Wakizashi in my closet, and while it doesn't have much of a blade, it does have a wicked point.

Texas just recently passed a law basically permitting open carry of any freaking bladed weapon available. Swords, Spears, knive over 6' inches, switch blades, gladius, katana, Bowie knife, combat knife, etc...

[pmulcahy11b]

Texas just recently passed a law basically permitting open carry of any freaking bladed weapon available. Swords, Spears, knive over 6' inches, switch blades, gladius, katana, Bowie knife, combat knife, etc...

Yeah, but the seriously mentally ill have different, more restrictive laws which apply to them. Believe me, I check them about four times a year, hoping that those (like me) who are stable on medication will be allowed to own firearms. (That's a bill that goes through the Texas legislature from time to time, always defeated so far.)

[Draq]

Yeah, but the seriously mentally ill have different, more restrictive laws which apply to them. Believe me, I check them about four times a year, hoping that those (like me) who are stable on medication will be allowed to own firearms. (That's a bill that goes through the Texas legislature from time to time, always defeated so far.)

I understand.

[swaghauler]

There is a ballpoint pen that does similar duty. Navy guys tell of making Monkey fist knots with large ball bearings as an improvised self defense weapons overseas.

Schrade makes an affordable Tactical Pen that's not bad. It has a glass breaker too. As much as I love my SureFire Flashlights, I CANNOT bring myself to spend almost $200 on a titanium Tactical Pen.

[swaghauler]

I'm guessing that what you call a Kubotan is what I call a Yawara. (I'm guessing we studied different martial arts.) I carry one of those flashlights in my pocket, and have several in the house and another in the car. They sell them by ton down at Walmart for a dollar apiece, so I can have plenty of them and if I break one, so what.

And unfortunately, I'm not allowed bows or crossbows. Not sure what Texas says about knives, however...I have an ornamental Wakizashi in my closet, and while it doesn't have much of a blade, it does have a wicked point.

I'd buy a $10 paracord Shepard's Sling (ReadyMan sells them). It WILL take LOTS of practice to become proficient but they do work. It looks like a bundle of cord and you can get "ammo" out of any stream or river. Just look for 300 to 400-gram stones that are smooth and oval-shaped. Keep it in your house with a good old-fashioned WOODEN baseball bat and a cheap baseball glove. Anyone who sees it will just assume you play and you won't be defenseless in your own home. You also have the best "biological burglar alarm" ever made in your dogs.

You might also check out the TASER PULSE. If you can carry the PULSE, remember to keep your receipt. The PULSE is designed to deliver a 30-second pulse so you can drop it and run. The manufacturer is claiming they will replace a PULSE used in self-defense if you have your receipt AND a police report. Unlike stun guns, tasers DO WORK without having to hit one of the 13 nerve bundles/pressure points on the body.

[Targan]

Schrade makes an affordable Tactical Pen that's not bad. It has a glass breaker too. As much as I love my SureFire Flashlights, I CANNOT bring myself to spend almost $200 on a titanium Tactical Pen.

I have a Smith & Wesson tactical pen. It's pretty solid.

[pmulcahy11b]

You might also check out the TASER PULSE. If you can carry the PULSE, remember to keep your receipt. The PULSE is designed to deliver a 30-second pulse so you can drop it and run. The manufacturer is claiming they will replace a PULSE used in self-defense if you have your receipt AND a police report. Unlike stun guns, tasers DO WORK without having to hit one of the 13 nerve bundles/pressure points on the body.

I actually don't know what the laws say about something like that. I can carry pepper spray -- seems like the Taser would be along the same lines. I'll have to go back to the city's and state's sites and look.