Other Nationalities in US Army - And Da Man

[Panther Al]

One of the things that gets a lot of discussion in my group, as well as occasionally here, is the status and reasons for those other than americans serving in US units. One of my players went off on how the US Army would never let it happen.

I gave a lot of good reasons why it would happen, and his comeback was, "Name one soldier who excelled in the US Army that didn't start in it."

So, I gave him Lauri Allan Törni.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauri_Törni

Talk about a guy who had one hell of odd military life - and wound up being played by John Wayne.

What sort of logic do you all give when presented the point of view that it wouldn't happen in your games?

[HorseSoldier]

One of the things that gets a lot of discussion in my group, as well as occasionally here, is the status and reasons for those other than americans serving in US units. One of my players went off on how the US Army would never let it happen.

Your player doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. One word answer: KATUSA.

Once the nukes fly, US forces are going to face a severe manpower shortage. Local levies are going to be necessary. Plus a need for translators and local guides, getting more and more severe as units shift from normal military operations to being an all-encompassing only-thing-that-passes-for-local-government sort of entities.

[Targan]

It is well known that the US military will accept recruits that don't have US citizenship. Although its not about the US Army, look at Generation: Kill, there is a US Marine in that who is Brazilian (he keeps speaking in Portuguese over the comms net in the heat of battle and no one can understand him).

[Panther Al]

Indeed, we had a Czech and a Frenchman in our unit during OIF (As he put it, he had France's entire allocation of balls - and my apologies to our french forum members, he said it, not I!), what I am dealing with is finding enough other sources to get my player to shut up about it. :)

[Legbreaker]

I know of at least one Australian who joined the 82nd - he was front page news back in 93 (I think) when elements of the Division jumped into Singleton training area, right off the plane from the US. Poor men had to endure a flight halfway around the world in the usual military comfort and then jump!

[Panther Al]

That sounds.... horrid. I flew coach on both Quantas and Air NZed (The better of the two in my experience) all the times I went to see family down by Wellington, bad enough as is. But in jump gear packed liked sardines in the back of lifter? Gah. *shudders*

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That sounds.... horrid. I flew coach on both Quantas and Air NZed (The better of the two in my experience) all the times I went to see family down by Wellington, bad enough as is. But in jump gear packed liked sardines in the back of lifter? Gah. *shudders*

I have to agree...
I once flew approximately 1000km (680 miles) nonstop in a RAAF C-130 but we were bog standard Infantry and that was bad enough let alone packed in on a transcontinental flight.
And
Qantas is pretty damned average as an airline (personally I prefer Singapore Airlines).

[Canadian Army]

The first marine to die in Iraq was José Antonio Gutiérrez from Guatemala. Before making his way to the United States, Gutiérrez was an orphan who lived on the streets of Guatemala City, until he was taken in by Casa Alianza, the Latin American branch of Covenant House, a New York-based child advocacy organisation.

[JHart]

To add that the guy doesn't have clue, I knew a girl who was born Canadian and was serving in the US Navy. She couldn't be a nuclear tech because of security but otherwise it wasn't a problem


I also remember reading a Soldier magazine circa 1995 that had an article about a Ukrainian national who was a US Army Lt. I was in ROTC at the time and thought only US citizens could be officers, then I learned about waivers. There are waivers for (nearly) everything!

The US, as well as many other nations, have a history for having foreign nationals in service. The Marquis de Lafayette, Baron von Steuben and General Pulaski, to name a few notable examples.

In the manpower shortage in T2K I imagine the question would be "Are you a Commie?" and "Do you want to eat?"

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah there were several members of the 82nd who were Mexican Citizens.

[Adm.Lee]

I now remember something a professor once told me. He had been a platoon leader in Vietnam, and one of his troops was a Canadian volunteer. So many Americans running to his country to avoid the war, he needed to balance things out, was the guess.

[Fusilier]

I now remember something a professor once told me. He had been a platoon leader in Vietnam, and one of his troops was a Canadian volunteer. So many Americans running to his country to avoid the war, he needed to balance things out, was the guess.

35,000 Canadian volunteers served in the US military during the Vietnam war.

[Canadian Army]

I was in ROTC at the time and thought only US citizens could be officers, then I learned about waivers.

Some foreign officers have made all the way to the top: Generals John Shalikashvili (Georgia); former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 1993 to 1997; Walter Krueger (Germany), command of the Sixth United States Army in the South West Pacific Area during World War II; and George Kenney (Canada), commander of the Allied air forces in the Southwest Pacific Area (SWPA) from August 1942 until 1945.

In Walter Krueger's case he went from Private to General; serving in three wars in process and founded the Alamo Scouts, consisting of small teams of highly trained volunteers, would operate deep behind enemy lines to provide intelligence-gathering and tactical reconnaissance in advance of Sixth U.S. Army landing operations.

Also here is a link regarding the make up of Union Forces during the civil war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Army#Ethnic_groups

[Adm.Lee]

35,000 Canadian volunteers served in the US military during the Vietnam war.

More than I would have guessed, thanks for the number.

[Abbott Shaull]

Also here is a link regarding the make up of Union Forces during the civil war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Army#Ethnic_groups

Yes, but consider the number immigrants that were coming to the US and it continual expansion to the west, it not surprising to find the Civil War Union Army with high ratio of immigrates serving in the ranks.

[Legbreaker]

Wasn't there quite a number of ex-Germans who joined the US military after WWII? I seem to remember a fair few SS officers and men amongst them. :S

I could be wrong though.

[Canadian Army]

Wasn't there quite a number of ex-Germans who joined the US military after WWII? I seem to remember a fair few SS officers and men amongst them. :S

I could be wrong though.

OK, I never thought my end less knowledge of War Comics would be of use on this board, but today I stand corrected. Issue #7 of The Nam(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_%27Nam) Good Old Days; Duong, a Kit Carson Scout, shares his insight with Ed Marks about the politics and struggles in Vietnam's history. During the story he tells Ed about how when the French (the French Foreign Legion) came to Vietnam they mostly ex-Nazis (Germans). Like many of the stories feature in series it was base on true events.

[HorseSoldier]

Yeah -- the Foreign Legion full of SS men post WW2 has been kicking around for a long time and is, I think, fairly well attested historically.

As for the US military, I haven't heard similar stories (except as hyperbole), but there was a big push to recruit Eastern European nationals for the nascent Special Forces. I could see that recruit pool including some guys whose resume included serving in foreign volunteer SS formations.

[Panther Al]

Larry Thorn, mentioned in my first post, not only was in the Finnish army he also was an officer for a while in the Waffen SS, when he died he was a major in the US Army

[dragoon500ly]

It is well known that the US military will accept recruits that don't have US citizenship. Although its not about the US Army, look at Generation: Kill, there is a US Marine in that who is Brazilian (he keeps speaking in Portuguese over the comms net in the heat of battle and no one can understand him).

When I was stationed in Germany in 1978, there was a Sikh truck driver, earning his US citzenship and yes he had the waivers allowing him to not cut his hair and bread, to wear his turban and to carry his knife.

[pmulcahy11b]

When I was stationed in Germany in 1978, there was a Sikh truck driver, earning his US citzenship and yes he had the waivers allowing him to not cut his hair and bread, to wear his turban and to carry his knife.

I'm sorry, but if you join the US Army, you need to integrate in, and look like the other troops. (Yes, I know there are grooming and other waivers for special ops, but that's a different situation.) He should never have been given those waivers.

[dragoon500ly]

I'm sorry, but if you join the US Army, you need to integrate in, and look like the other troops. (Yes, I know there are grooming and other waivers for special ops, but that's a different situation.) He should never have been given those waivers.

He was a Sikh, the reason that he was given those waviers was due to his religious beliefs. A recent issue of the Army Times reported that another Sikh had enlisted, was given the same waivers and is serving as an foreward observer. There is also a Orthadox Jewish rabbi that is being granted a waiver so that he can keep his beard, he will be serving as a rabbi. And that's been since the start of the year.

Hate to say it, but the times, they are a changing....

[HorseSoldier]

I'd heard there was at least one Sikh soldier in one of the SF Groups who was also allowed to keep his appearance IAW his religion. (18-series guy, no less, on an ODA). May just be a rumor or garbled story, as he was supposed to have been in the SFG I was assigned to and I never met him, and we had a couple non-Sikh Indians in the unit.

[rcaf_777]

here a little burp from wikipedia

Medals of Honor can only be awarded to members of the U.S. armed forces—although being a U.S. citizen is not a prerequisite. Sixty-one Canadians who were serving in the United States armed forces have been awarded the Medal of Honor, with a majority awarded for actions in the American Civil War. Since 1900, only four have been awarded to Canadians. In the Vietnam War, Peter C. Lemon was the only Canadian recipient of the Medal of Honor.

Here a website for Canadian that have won the CMH and it also has a link to thoses american's who have won the VC

http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Military/canadian_cmh_recipients.htm

[HorseSoldier]

Not to critique Canadians who got the Medal of Honor in the 19th century specifically, but that thing used to be handed out super casually compared to the 20th century. "Jumped in to help guy who fell overboard" just doesn't have quite the same ring to it as the citation for Sgt Lemon's actions.

Driving up here to AK from CONUS through portions of Canada I noticed that I'd occasionally pass houses and farms in Saskatchewan and Alberta where people were flying POW/MIA flags and similar that I assumed were from guys who'd served in the US military during the Vietnam era.

[dragoon500ly]

Not to critique Canadians who got the Medal of Honor in the 19th century specifically, but that thing used to be handed out super casually compared to the 20th century. "Jumped in to help guy who fell overboard" just doesn't have quite the same ring to it as the citation for Sgt Lemon's actions.

Driving up here to AK from CONUS through portions of Canada I noticed that I'd occasionally pass houses and farms in Saskatchewan and Alberta where people were flying POW/MIA flags and similar that I assumed were from guys who'd served in the US military during the Vietnam era.

In the 19th Century US Army, there were only two adwards for valor, the Medal of Honor and the Certificate of Military Merit, of the two the Certificate was the harder to get adwarded since it included a pay raise of $2.00 per month!

[Abbott Shaull]

I'm sorry, but if you join the US Army, you need to integrate in, and look like the other troops. (Yes, I know there are grooming and other waivers for special ops, but that's a different situation.) He should never have been given those waivers.

You know at times I agree total that if the troops are within the regular population of the troops, sailors, and airmen/women then they shouldn't be granted waivers.

Special Forces Operators on the other hand depending on the units mission. 75th Ranger Battalion, probably wouldn't see much in waivers there either. Seals, Operators in ODA and ODB, and certain Air Force Special Operational units. There are times these troops have to blend into with people they are operating amongst.

Yeah during the Cold War there were people who had immigrated from Central and Eastern Europe, and other regions of the world where if they had the language skills were wanted by all Special Operation units including Ranger Battalions, Special Force Groups, various Seal Teams, and other various units that have been the worse kept secrets of Joint Special Operation Command. Then there are also the rumors/stories during the 1960s and 1970s where at time troops and Seals were selected to go and create sleeper cells behind the Iron Curtain. The main problem with these rumors it was more difficult for a person to be inserted/'defect' behind the iron curtain and operate than the Soviets and Germans to send this way.

One of the few interesting and well known secrets on both sides was lot of the long drivers bring goods from Eastern Europe were military Officers from Spetnaz and other units. While at the same time it was largely Special Operators who did the same thing, especially US/UK/France convoys to supply West Berlin. As well as the active observers that both sides allowed to verify things.

[HorseSoldier]

Special Forces Operators on the other hand depending on the units mission. 75th Ranger Battalion, probably wouldn't see much in waivers there either. Seals, Operators in ODA and ODB, and certain Air Force Special Operational units. There are times these troops have to blend into with people they are operating amongst.

The Ranger Batts went to relaxed grooming standards and dispensed with a lot of their more Big Army than Big Army silliness on about 09/12/01 to focus exclusively on warfighting.

[Abbott Shaull]

The Ranger Batts went to relaxed grooming standards and dispensed with a lot of their more Big Army than Big Army silliness on about 09/12/01 to focus exclusively on warfighting.

Yeah honestly about that time everyone should had their Big Army silliness stowed away for the long haul...

[HorseSoldier]

I agree that it should be, but, sadly :rolleyes:

[Abbott Shaull]

Well yeah of course. There are still too many ticket punchers and not enough willing to realize that like it or not, we have been more or less in state of war with various extremist muslim groups since the 1980's. We just have been a long time at adding thing thing together until 911. Oh, well they can keep their zero tolerance rules, and other such silliness that they like to play.

Like only after a very public outcry was a certain Colonel was denied what she felt as well deserve promotion, after they certain pictures of some MPs and Iraqi detainees were found. Of course the enlisted personnel they busted, should of been for being so flipping foolish for taking pictures and keeping them. Do I think others were taking such photos, hell yeah, did they keep them, no many of them were smart enough to realize there some things you don't want as keep sake. If they had they made sure they were destroyed after this broke out. There were more and more people between the what was Staff Sergeant or Sergeant First Class of the group that was busted and the Colonel of the flipping Brigade inside and out of the chain of command who knew what was going on.

One sad thing with cameras and video camera getting smaller and these darn cellphone, walkman, cd-walkman, cassette-player, and various MP3 players. Soldiers will find way to take these comforts with them, and next thing they like to take pictures even when later they wish they may have never took them at later date. Ugh it does have me still going WTF were they thinking and to hear one of the MP was prison guard in real life and had been dismissed for being rough with prisoners...*Shrug*

[Legbreaker]

...in real life...

That right there may be a big part of the problem. Many reservists, etc simply don't see their military service as being "real" but more of a game. They're in a foreign country dealing with foreign people and doing a job that for most has occupied only a small percentage of their adult lives.

Add in the "video game" mentality whereby any mistake simply means going back to an earlier save... (and yes, I do know of people who think like that IRL!)

[dragoon500ly]

That right there may be a big part of the problem. Many reservists, etc simply don't see their military service as being "real" but more of a game. They're in a foreign country dealing with foreign people and doing a job that for most has occupied only a small percentage of their adult lives.

Add in the "video game" mentality whereby any mistake simply means going back to an earlier save... (and yes, I do know of people who think like that IRL!)

Here now! That's my boss you're talking about!

;)

[perardua]

Sikhs and Muslims in the British forces have long been allowed to wear neatly trimmed beards and are issued turbans in the appropriate regimental/service colours for wear in uniform. Sikhs can also carry other religious items (known as the five Ks). There are obviously some operational constraints, but generally a common sense approach is taken. And why not? The armed forces should be representative of the UK, and that includes being as inclusive as possible with regards to religion.
And many troops on ops have the grooming standards relaxed for operational reasons - we used to come back off eight day patrols with massive beards and long hair as water was to be conserved and not used for shaving.

[dragoon500ly]

I've known some commanders to insist that their troops shave every day, if no water, feel free to use the juice from the fruit cans...or just dry shave!

Didn't make sense then, still doesn't make sense now!

[Abbott Shaull]

I've known some commanders to insist that their troops shave every day, if no water, feel free to use the juice from the fruit cans...or just dry shave!

Didn't make sense then, still doesn't make sense now!

Yeah, been there done that. I can understand part of it during Basic and AIT training, when in the field. The only problem is you can only dry shave so many time before the razor is shot...

[perardua]

In field training in the UK we are always required to shave - it is part of field admin, especially in an environment with an NBC threat - plus the UK is hardly short of water most of the time. On ops, as I said, the thought is that there are better things to be doing with your time and drinking water. Plus, apparently, it helps you present a friendlier look to the locals.

I remember getting bumped by the enemy on an exercise during recruit training while I was shaving, and ending up having to bug out and tab across the training area with a half-shaven face. Good times.

[Abbott Shaull]

In field training in the UK we are always required to shave - it is part of field admin, especially in an environment with an NBC threat - plus the UK is hardly short of water most of the time. On ops, as I said, the thought is that there are better things to be doing with your time and drinking water. Plus, apparently, it helps you present a friendlier look to the locals.

I remember getting bumped by the enemy on an exercise during recruit training while I was shaving, and ending up having to bug out and tab across the training area with a half-shaven face. Good times.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand why we were expected to shave every day even while in the field, due to fact NBC threat was always there. I am just saying at time common sense should be used at times. As presented a friendlier side, well after you put on camo paint/makeup doesn't really matter if you clean shaven or not when your units rumbles into town. While during the battle you just fought to take the town, the local town folks won't give a damn if you are clean shaven or not.

[rcaf_777]

Sikhs and Muslims in the British forces have long been allowed to wear neatly trimmed beards and are issued turbans in the appropriate regimental/service colours for wear in uniform. Sikhs can also carry other religious items (known as the five Ks). There are obviously some operational constraints, but generally a common sense approach is taken. And why not? The armed forces should be representative of the UK, and that includes being as inclusive as possible with regards to religion.
And many troops on ops have the grooming standards relaxed for operational reasons - we used to come back off eight day patrols with massive beards and long hair as water was to be conserved and not used for shaving.

Just remember you have a tuban or helmet which offer better protection, you will know when the bullets fly, that being said Sikhs in indian army have long gone into battle with no helmets

Breads are nice, but they stop you from getting a good seal againist your gas mask, the britsh and french armies have along had the tradditions of their Pioneer and Sappers having breads

Short Hair or high and tight, means it easier to wash and clean and find ticks and fleas, this come from WWI

The point I am making it that all things are enforced in the military for a reason, and if sign a waiver you need to know this and know that when go into combat you will not have the same protection as the other guy

[perardua]

Somehow, I suspect that Sikhs and Muslims in the British forces are aware of this, and as I mention, operational needs come first. If you're interested, the rules on religious dress (along with fasting, prayer and other considerations) in the British forces are here:
http://www.army.mod.uk/documents/general/Guide_on_Religion_and_Belief_in_the_MOD_and_Armed_ Forces.pdf

As an aside, SOP for improving respirator seals in situations where individuals cannot shave (lack of equipment or facial injuries) is to cover the beard in vaseline.

[Abbott Shaull]

One of the interesting things after TDM and break-down of National government the threat of Chemical and Biological weapons ironically increases.

[Legbreaker]

The use of them too I'd think. Some gases are ridiculously simple to make and in an environment where mass casualty producing weapons are a quick, simple and effective way of balancing out a lack of manpower...
Yes, they can be a two edged sword (if the wind changes for example), but that didn't stop their wholesale use in the Great War (WWI). As protective equipment wears out and is unable to be replaced, even the basic chemicals will become more and more effective.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The use of them too I'd think. Some gases are ridiculously simple to make and in an environment where mass casualty producing weapons are a quick, simple and effective way of balancing out a lack of manpower...
Yes, they can be a two edged sword (if the wind changes for example), but that didn't stop their wholesale use in the Great War (WWI). As protective equipment wears out and is unable to be replaced, even the basic chemicals will become more and more effective.
And the frightening thing about it is that some of the chemicals required to make 'quick & dirty' chemical weapons are very easy to acquire and some of them are quite easy to make (as long as you have some basic knowledge of chemistry and geology)
The interesting aspect for T2k though is that through a lack of safety measures or understanding of such basics as wind direction and gas spread, there's probably going to be a number of 'own goals' scored by the people trying to develop crude chemical weapons.

[Rapparee]

I read an interesting book there, The Green Marine-Graham Dale. An Irishman who gets unemployed after the Dot Com boom, works as a volunteer firefighter in Texas before joining the USMC Reserves. He said the only restriction was that as a non-US citizen he couldn't be assigned to Recon or Intelligence. Of course he was still allowed to be shipped to Iraq:L

[Abbott Shaull]

I read an interesting book there, The Green Marine-Graham Dale. An Irishman who gets unemployed after the Dot Com boom, works as a volunteer firefighter in Texas before joining the USMC Reserves. He said the only restriction was that as a non-US citizen he couldn't be assigned to Recon or Intelligence. Of course he was still allowed to be shipped to Iraq:L

Yes, but in T2K war, I think there would be plenty of Nationals working in the Intelligence and Recon/Scout/Cavalry units.