The Military Deployments of T2K

[dragoon500ly]

Like to throw out a couple of thoughts...

Does anyone else find the deployments of some of the powers to be, well, more than a little odd? For example, the 6th Light Infantry Division was formed to be the garrison for Alaska with the secondary mission of reinforcing Korea. And yet GDW has the division in Central Europe. A division trained for artic/mountain warfare in the Central German Plain?

Ditto for the 10th Mountain Division. When this division was formed, its mission was to serve as the main reinforcement for Norway and yet it winds up on the Pacific Northwest...

The 40th Mechanized Infantry Division is a CA-NG division with no NATO mission, in fact it was always considered to be a reinforcement for the Persian Gulf...And while the RDF of one airborne, one air assault, one motorized, one mechanized and two marine divisions, is a powerful force. It is sadly lacking in offensive punch, especially with the task of securing a major oil reserve. Its only NATO reinforcement is an ad-hoc British/Gurkha brigade that lacks most of the attachments that a brigade would bring with it.

Considering that the Persian Gulf would provide a majority of the oil products used by NATO, one wonders if a larger commitment of troops to the gulf would be a more reasonable decision.

[Adm.Lee]

Didn't the 6th LID go to Norway first, and then to Germany? I'm thinking that was after the Norwegian front was closed down by the US, and mountain/winter experienced troops could work in Austria.

[Abbott Shaull]

Oddly I can see one Brigade of the 6th Light being sent to Norway to bring the 10th Mountain to full strength. Then with the 1 combat brigade and rest of the divisional support it would stay in Alaska where it would go and form up it other two combat Brigades as troops became ready. Of course during the time they would get raided for troops for Korea.

The 10th after emergency in Norway was finish would either move Germany in place of the 6th Light, more likely sent to the Middle East. Yeah I know what the XVIII Airborne Corps needs another damn light unit. Yet, the 10th and 24th were odd divisions. In that they both had round out units, assigned to XVIII Airborne Corps which was basically the mains stay of the Army Central Command components. The 10th also had the mission for Norway while the 24th could of been shifted to Europe easy enough too.

Yeah I alway thought the 40th Mechanized would of ended up in Korea or Middle East depending on when they shipped out. Then again there were plenty of Separate Brigade they could of pieced together a couple Heavy Divisions for the Middle East.

Would there be another 23rd Infantry Division reformed again? Take 194th Armor Brigade, 197th Mechanized Brigade, remains of the Berlin Brigade, and the Airborne Task Force out Italy...anyone...

Another problem I have is lack of the 29th Light Infantry and sending of the 26th Light Infantry to Korea. I think they would of both probably been sent to Europe via Norway.

Would the 28th Infantry Division deploy as Medium Division or Heavy Division?

Then here are several Division of National Guard units that one could play where is Waldo with. I mean would it be the 49th Armor Division or 36th Mechanized Division. 34th Infantry or 47th Infantry Division. Would it be the 50th Armor Division or 27th Infantry Division.

Then several Brigades that are the remains of former National Guard Divisions. Speaking of the Separated Brigades and lack of Divisional HQs. Would the former Regimental Combat Teams be raised as new Brigade Combat Team that would be sent to various regions to reinforcement at Army and Corps level?

Then throw in all the former Reserve units that would be reforming too.

Next would the Round Out Brigades make it to the dance with their Division or would have the Pentagon came to it senses and rush to re-organize things? I mean in some cases there are some Division that had 10 Battalions of Armor, and various Infantry types. Would they be pared down to 9 Battalions with the other Battalions used to bring up other units that were short.

Would the Army come up with Units of Action concept due to losses, instead of lack of wanting to increase the military force? Would they add 4th and 5th combat brigades to Divisions in some theaters and with others in certain area shrink them?

There are so many what ifs and not enough time to truly explore them...lol

[HorseSoldier]

GDW screwed up on 6th ID and 10th Motown in various ways, though I think part of that was bad info (I assume that's why both division's round out components are elsewhere in the US OOB according to GDW, even though they mention both having roundout units).

Keep in mind that 6th ID in Alaska was replaced with 47th ID, putting both 6th and 10th in Norway at one point. This is probably realistic, since GDW's Soviet invasion of Alaska is just so much insanity and one division plus the AK ARNG at that time is probably as much force as you'd need.

10th Mountain being sent back to Alaska was a emergency/contingency operation after the .sovs rolled into AK, so while 6th ID might have been better, 10th was the guys who were available. That part is plausible -- sometimes you work with what you've got, not the 100% perfect solution (no matter how much it hurt people's feelings when Rumsfeld said something to that effect).

[dragoon500ly]

I always felt that the 6th LID would have either been kept in AK, especially with worsening US/Soviet relations. If it was deployed outside of AK, then it most likely would have deployed to Korea as part of 8th Army's reinforcements.

The 10th Mountain would have deployed to Norway, reinforced by Atlantic Fleet's MEB OR held stateside until its roundout brigade was ready and then be a later reinforcement to Iran and the only reason why I support another light division in the RDF is because of the Zargos Mountains...

The 29th LID was slated for the Persian Gulf as well. In my RDF games, they have always been busy securing the Saudi Arabia base areas or reinforcing the Egyptians in the Suez Canal Zone.

The 49th and 50th Armored are the NG's oddballs. The 49th AD has a NATO role, I've always sent it to Europe in place of the so-called 44th AD. The 50th AD gets sent in the southwest to oppose the Mexican invasion.

[Abbott Shaull]

I have been wondering. With the number of excess sailors and airmen in places like Korea, Europe, and Middle East. Would we find such Brigades as the Enhance Maneuver Brigades with an Provisional Infantry Battalion, Field Artillery Battalion, and Brigade Support Battalion. Then adding MP Battalions, Engineer Battalions and other units. These Brigades would be assigned to various Corps level and to various Divisions as replacement for combat units being rotated to reserve position or other forward Corps level positions. These units would have some type of Civil Affairs units assigned too.

I can see these Brigades being organized largely in Europe and Korea. Maybe a few in the Middle East and being assigned to some of the Division to help spread out the Combat units equally among the Divisions. I can also see by 2000 that the 82nd and 101st Division retaining operational control of one or two Brigades while the other Divisions with the Central Command detach a Brigade and to be attached to these two divisions and them receiving the Airborne/Air Assault Brigade to be used as active airmobile reserve for the Division.

[HorseSoldier]

That's probably what a lot of the National Guard Separate Infantry and Armor Brigades would have been really doing in the Twilight War, rather than being brigaded into various units like 44th Armored Division. Or at least serving as Corps or higher assets to be flexed to support any number of operations, be it plussing up a division in the defense or offense on a critical sector to relieving units in place so they could reconstitute.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well here are some thoughts about Amor and Mechanized Battalions...

Armor Battalion
HQ
HCC
2 Armor Companies (Teams): HQ, 2 Armor Platoons, 1 Mechanized Platoon.
1 Mechanized Company (Team): HQ, 2 Mechanized Platoons, 1 Armor Platoon.
1 Anti-Tank Company (Team): HQ, 1 Anti-Armor Platoons, 1 Armor Platoon.
1 Support Company

Mechanized Battalion
HQ
HCC
2 Mechanized Companies (Teams): HQ, 2 Mechanized Platoons, 1 Armor Platoon.
1 Armor Company (Team): HQ, 2 Armor Platoons, 1 Mechanized Platoon.
1 Anti-Tank Company (Team): HQ, 2 Anti-Armor Platoons, 1 Mechanized Platoon.
1 Support Company

The HQ element would 1 M1, 1 M2, 2 M113 or LAV/Stryker vehicles (one used as company ambulance) along with other support vehicles.

The Armor Platoon would have 4 M1s and couple support vehicles

The Mechanized Platoon would 2 to 4 M113 or Stryker type vehicles and 2 M2 or LAV-25 to provide the heavier punch. This would give the dismount element ability to have at least 2 full squads in 2 vehicle and the rest in others, if 4 M113 or Stryker vehicle would be used the dismounted element would have a fully dismounted platoon on the ground. The M113 and Stryker could provide the MG firepower inplace of weapon squad and the M2 could provide the AT support. One of the things each Squad still would have access for one fire team to carry Machine gun and one AT weapon while dismounted.

The Anti-Tank Platoon would have 4 M2 and 2 M3s. This was based off the idea that the old scout platoons were 6 M3, but lack the dismounted staff. With these platoons they could provide a small dismount to set up armor ambushes ahead of the line held by the M2 and M3. Then mount up and the M2 and M3 could continue the fight as they withdraw.

In theory one of the Companies would be split up with it 3 Platoon disperse to the other three Companies with one platoon going to each Platoon.

Just some thoughts...

[HorseSoldier]

I always felt that the 6th LID would have either been kept in AK, especially with worsening US/Soviet relations. If it was deployed outside of AK, then it most likely would have deployed to Korea as part of 8th Army's reinforcements.

The 10th Mountain would have deployed to Norway, reinforced by Atlantic Fleet's MEB OR held stateside until its roundout brigade was ready and then be a later reinforcement to Iran and the only reason why I support another light division in the RDF is because of the Zargos Mountains...


With a full up Soviet push into Norway, I can easily see a logic to pushing both 10th and 6th to Norway. (Whether 6th ID would have taken their roundout battalion from the AK ARNG is a question, even if they were bumped up with their USAR roundout brigade -- though that battalion was probably part of the six battalions in the two Arctic Scout brigades in GDW's take on things.)

GDW has 47th ID taking over the Alaska garrison mission, so there's no real loss in effectiveness, and actually additional firepower.

The problem with GDW's take on Alaska is that 6th ID + the AK ARNG (or 47th ID plus same) is an adequate garrison for the threat as it really existed -- the Soviets lacked the power projection to put anyone on the ground in serious numbers up here, so operations would probably have consisted of nuisance raiding and SOF missions on both sides of the border. I'm sure the Soviets would have made a stab at taking out the pipeline with SOF before they were just able to nuke it, but they just didn't have the means to put the troops shown in T2K on the ground.

But, in an alternate universe where the Soviets had the means to put a couple combined arms armies across the Bering Strait, 6th ID + 47th ID + the two brigades of the GDW AK ARNG aren't an adequate garrison. I'd expect for the actual threat environment depicted, that at least another army division, or possibly one of the two MarDivs sent to Korea would have been parked in Alaska, probably with at least the Canadian brigade group that was supposed to head to Korea mentioned in some of the GDW stuff forward deployed into Alaska as well, or at least staged as a theater reserve in the Yukon at Whitehorse or maybe closer to the border.

(And then there is the whole mess of how the invasion is described -- it sounds like the .sovs came across the Straits and just drove overland from somewhere around Nome on to Fairbanks. Then turned south to take Anchorage. And then somehow miracled themselves down into the panhandle to take Juneau and Haines -- if only to explain how Soviet troops make it to Whitehorse.

No part of that makes any degree of sense. Just the Nome to Fairbanks part is 837 kilometers, straight line distance, across nothing. No infrastructure and no roads. Even with the sexy hover mobile brigades involved there's just no way to get an armored force across that distance in the summer, and trying to make that movement in the winter would make the worst days of the Eastern Front look like a slightly chilly spring afternoon. The rest of it is equally boggling -- a post-nuclear campaign waged across a maneuver area around the same size as the central European front from French-German border to the deepest penetrations of NATO forces into Soviet territory.)

[/soap box mode]

[dragoon500ly]

LOL!

GDW's take on the AK invasion certainly didn't involve anybody taking the time to look at a terrain map of the area involved. The only Soviet options that ever made any sense was taking out either end of the pipeline, and the Soviet Pacific Fleet never had the power projection to actually try it. It would have been a Spetsnaz/Airborne show and would have been more of a raid than anything else, and it would have been more easily accompished by tossing a few dozen SSMs/ASMs into the area; or even just park a SSN or two with orders to sink tankers. From a story line, its intresting, but from a realistic approach, it would never have happened.

With the job of securing the pipeline, hunting down the Soviet recon/raiding party...I think the 6th LID would have been kept in AK, at least until the 47th ID was up to speed and deployed. Even then I can see 6th LID moved up to the north and west coasts with the 47th securing the major cities in the south. Can't say that I would agree with deploying a Marine Division, the situation in Korea would have almost certainly required their deployment there. Most likely one of the NG Infantry Brigades could be moved into the state, if needed.

Korea is the big question mark of the game...from the Vehicle Guides we know that the US units committed took brutal losses. But never so much of a hint of canon material to explain what happened. Someday, in my overflowing free time, have to sit down and start writing something....;)

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah Korea has been a one of those things that make you go hmmm! We know that some units of the 8th U. S. Army made contact with the units of the Chinese Army before they totally collapse, and then they had to fall back into Korea.

[HorseSoldier]

I suspect attrition in Korea is more due to being on the receiving end of the Soviet "China pattern" nuclear attack, rather than it being a meat grinder.

[Legbreaker]

Quite possibly right there. North Korea could have attacked southward when the world's attention was focused on China and Europe. There's the rumour of NK nukes, if they were a reality they'd give the south a real pasting without the need for the Soviets to throw a few of their own.
The NK military could then go in and give the few southern units (Korean, US, etc) a real bloody nose. Units from the few countries not entangled elsewhere would be rushed in and the north pushed back at great cost (worse than in the 50's - at least there wasn't a world wide war going on at the time, soaking up the bulk of military strength). Eventually things settle down in Korea to the point where the Soviets feel it's stable enough to use the area as a resting point for some of their more battered units (this could explain the poor state of Soviet units in the area).

Haven't checked the sources in writing this so probably doesn't fit too well with the books, but as a first draft....

[Abbott Shaull]

Re-read the US Vehicle guide for the units of the 8th U.S. Army Divisions and the 163rd ACR. It one of the reason why the 5th and 6th Marine Division were hurriedly trained and sent to help the 4th Marine Expeditionary Force later to become the II Marine Amphibious Corps. Also part of the reason why the 26th Light Infantry from MA finds it's way to Korea instead of elsewhere.

[Rainbow Six]

Yeah Korea has been a one of those things that make you go hmmm! We know that some units of the 8th U. S. Army made contact with the units of the Chinese Army before they totally collapse, and then they had to fall back into Korea.

Per the Survivor's Guide to the UK, you also have the 6th UK Division making contact with US forces on the Yalu then retreating all the way back to Hong Kong when nukes started being used in China.

The retreat back to Hong Kong doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense to me - that's a distance of thousands of miles. If the 6th Division was in contact with US forces wouldn't it make more sense for it to fall back into Korea with the Americans rather than strike out to Hong Kong on its own?

[Legbreaker]

Contact could mean simply throwing a note tied to a rock over the heads of interposed enemy soldiers. It doesn't have to mean there's a clear corridor they can drive their entire unit through.

[Abbott Shaull]

Per the Survivor's Guide to the UK, you also have the 6th UK Division making contact with US forces on the Yalu then retreating all the way back to Hong Kong when nukes started being used in China.

The retreat back to Hong Kong doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense to me - that's a distance of thousands of miles. If the 6th Division was in contact with US forces wouldn't it make more sense for it to fall back into Korea with the Americans rather than strike out to Hong Kong on its own?

Shakes head and thinks *another GDW flub* Yeah, that would make more sense and probably have more secure line of communication than the march back.

[Legbreaker]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Back in the early 80's when the game was written, they didn't have access to the internet and accurate books. Even so, they did a damn fine job with what was available to great a fictional world in which we get to play a game.

[Abbott Shaull]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Back in the early 80's when the game was written, they dodn't have access to the internet and accurate books. Even so, they did a damn fine job with what was available to great a fictional world in which we get to play a game.

Yes I will grant you that, but they seemed to lack some basics research... Then again they weren't the only one lack research abilities...

[Legbreaker]

Time may have been in a bit short supply too. I believe they were publishing about one item every three days?
Not a bad effort since they were working out of what was basically little more the spare room of a house from my understanding.

I can't see anyone here managing to maintain such a good quality of work under the pressure they must have felt to meet publishing deadlines.

[Abbott Shaull]

Time may have been in a bit short supply too. I believe they were publishing about one item every three days?
Not a bad effort since they were working out of what was basically little more the spare room of a house from my understanding.

I can't see anyone here managing to maintain such a good quality of work under the pressure they must have felt to meet publishing deadlines.

That is the problem with lot of workshops that put out RPGs in general. In many cases they were 3 to 10 people working their butts off in spare rooms, garages and what not. The thing is few of these people even read the fiction books they were writing material for.

By the time they produced Twilight 2000, GDW had already had large Traveller backing and were far from the days working where ever they could find space. One problem I do see is that the old paper research that these places had to do, where stuff got misplaced. Even in this computer age, it is easy for stuff to get misplaced on the old hard drive if one isn't careful.

Even the big company such as the company that use to make Dungeon and Dragons showed what happens when you get too big.

[dragoon500ly]

Was reading "Shattered Sword" which is an indepth review of the Battle of Midway from the Japanese prespective...great read! But the authors had a discussion of the Japanese seizure of Attu and Kiska Islands...

"As it developed, Attu and Kiska were to be trifling consolation prizes for the failure of Operation MI. Thier loss meant almost nothing to the Americans. Indeed, when he was informed of Attu's fall after the Battle of Midway had already transpired, U.S. Navy Secretary W. Fran Knox offered a pithy indictment of Yamamoto's plan by remarking that "Japan was either unable to understand modern war or not qualified to take part in it.""

[Abbott Shaull]

Was reading "Shattered Sword" which is an indepth review of the Battle of Midway from the Japanese prespective...great read! But the authors had a discussion of the Japanese seizure of Attu and Kiska Islands...

"As it developed, Attu and Kiska were to be trifling consolation prizes for the failure of Operation MI. Thier loss meant almost nothing to the Americans. Indeed, when he was informed of Attu's fall after the Battle of Midway had already transpired, U.S. Navy Secretary W. Fran Knox offered a pithy indictment of Yamamoto's plan by remarking that "Japan was either unable to understand modern war or not qualified to take part in it.""

Yeah but the operation of retaking those island tied up resources. Not enough to affect the outcome of the war or to go as far as saying they prolonged the war, but still they tied up resources.

I think this is where the Alaska and Northwest Pacific Invasion angle comes in, even as bone headed as particular.

[dragoon500ly]

Yeah but the operation of retaking those island tied up resources. Not enough to affect the outcome of the war or to go as far as saying they prolonged the war, but still they tied up resources.

I think this is where the Alaska and Northwest Pacific Invasion angle comes in, even as bone headed as particular.

The sad thing is that it was the pressure of a few Congressmen that forced the Joint Chiefs to retake Kiska/Attu. Alaska Command was relucant to retake the islands due to the rather unique weather conditions that hampered any meaningful-sized air campaign. And the Japanese had just as much trouble in keeping the islands supplied. All in all, Kiska/Attu were an utter waste of resources to take, hold and retake. The only useful thing that came out of the entire Aleutian Campaign was the recovered Zero fighter that was repaired and flight tested to insure that the F6F Hellcat fighter outperformed the Zero...

[Abbott Shaull]

Well yeah, considering that both Hawaii and Alaska were years from statehood to. Yeah and considering all the island that the Japanese had taken that they bypassed during the war. I am sure a few islands with little more than few thousand Japanese soldier on them was more of thorn in one side than any tactical importance....

[HorseSoldier]

In the Twilight War, I would think that a Soviet seizure of Alaskan territory would have propaganda implications that would inflate the importance of the fight beyond what might be reasonable (contesting control of the pipeline is important, contesting control of Nome or Bethel, Alaska, or any of the Aleutians . . . not so much).

In WW2, I don't know if this would have been the case. I haven't read the media coverage from back then, but get the sense that obscure Alaskan islands probably meant less to the public mindset than the Philipines back then. I'm not sure there was a burning need to reclaim American territory, as embodied by the islands out there in the middle of nowhere, but may be wrong.

[Abbott Shaull]

The thing is there is reason why the Russian were so willing to sell Alaska in the first place. If they had some limited objectives, they could of used a force that was more tailored for those objectives instead of invading the Pacific Northwest with what amounted to a Front that found itself cut off.

[James Langham]

Like to throw out a couple of thoughts...

Does anyone else find the deployments of some of the powers to be, well, more than a little odd? For example, the 6th Light Infantry Division was formed to be the garrison for Alaska with the secondary mission of reinforcing Korea. And yet GDW has the division in Central Europe. A division trained for artic/mountain warfare in the Central German Plain?

Ditto for the 10th Mountain Division. When this division was formed, its mission was to serve as the main reinforcement for Norway and yet it winds up on the Pacific Northwest...

The 40th Mechanized Infantry Division is a CA-NG division with no NATO mission, in fact it was always considered to be a reinforcement for the Persian Gulf...And while the RDF of one airborne, one air assault, one motorized, one mechanized and two marine divisions, is a powerful force. It is sadly lacking in offensive punch, especially with the task of securing a major oil reserve. Its only NATO reinforcement is an ad-hoc British/Gurkha brigade that lacks most of the attachments that a brigade would bring with it.

Considering that the Persian Gulf would provide a majority of the oil products used by NATO, one wonders if a larger commitment of troops to the gulf would be a more reasonable decision.

In World War Two, here in the UK we spent 1940-1944 training a division for mountain and arctic warfare then deployed it to Holland...

[HorseSoldier]

CENTCOM in T2K manages to hold onto Saudi Arabia with no serious drama, so NATO's oil situation is okay. Contesting Iran is important but kind of just the bonus round -- and an economy of force mission when the European theater is full tilt boogie. If they can hold without augmentation, especially not another heavy division, that's likely to be all they'll get.

[dragoon500ly]

In World War Two, here in the UK we spent 1940-1944 training a division for mountain and arctic warfare then deployed it to Holland...

One of the reasons why the Italian Campaign of WWII was such a meatgrinder, all of the trained "mountain" divisions had been deployed elsewhere. It was only until the French and their Algerian troops were deployed that mountain-trained troops actually fought in the mountains....

[dragoon500ly]

CENTCOM in T2K manages to hold onto Saudi Arabia with no serious drama, so NATO's oil situation is okay. Contesting Iran is important but kind of just the bonus round -- and an economy of force mission when the European theater is full tilt boogie. If they can hold without augmentation, especially not another heavy division, that's likely to be all they'll get.

After rereading some of Harold Coyle's novels and RDF sourcebook as well; the impression you get is that the push to hold onto Iran was a desire to have as much strategic depth as possible in order to protect the Saudi/Gulf oil fields. Okay, makes sense...but the force commitment is what is so screwed. A single heavy division, no matter the size its commander's balls is going to be able to push against 1 or more Soviet armies. Even dropping the 82nd behind the lines to break the LOC would run into serious trouble from the 2nd & 3rd echlon divisions. And while the ole maroon beret may make its wearer semi-bulletproof....it doesn't have any effect when the enemy switchs from 7.62mm to 152mm...(now if the 82nd pulled a Chuck Norris and ripped off their BDU shirts and exposed their heroic manly chests....and a salute to Steve Jackson and his Heroic Hollywood Nudity stat!). Nope CENTCOM doesn't have the force structure to do half of what the canon material says they did.

My own feelings is that in order to pull off the "canon" material, CENTCOM had to have some form of additional force. My approach is to add two heavy divisions, an ACR, an LCR as well as some additional Iranian forces. I also debate about some kind of NATO force, most likely a British/Commonwealth Brigade....and yes I do add an Aussie battalion to the mix. Yes, it draws units from the CENTAG/NORTHAG mix...but I've always had issues with what GDW "sent" in that front.

And just for arguments sake...what in the world were they thinking when they decided to ship MILGOV/CIVGOV forces to Yugoslavia? Got tired of fighting against overwhelming odds and decided to enter Europe's free-fire zone?

[James Langham]

After rereading some of Harold Coyle's novels and RDF sourcebook as well; the impression you get is that the push to hold onto Iran was a desire to have as much strategic depth as possible in order to protect the Saudi/Gulf oil fields. Okay, makes sense...but the force commitment is what is so screwed. A single heavy division, no matter the size its commander's balls is going to be able to push against 1 or more Soviet armies. Even dropping the 82nd behind the lines to break the LOC would run into serious trouble from the 2nd & 3rd echlon divisions. And while the ole maroon beret may make its wearer semi-bulletproof....it doesn't have any effect when the enemy switchs from 7.62mm to 152mm...(now if the 82nd pulled a Chuck Norris and ripped off their BDU shirts and exposed their heroic manly chests....and a salute to Steve Jackson and his Heroic Hollywood Nudity stat!). Nope CENTCOM doesn't have the force structure to do half of what the canon material says they did.

My own feelings is that in order to pull off the "canon" material, CENTCOM had to have some form of additional force. My approach is to add two heavy divisions, an ACR, an LCR as well as some additional Iranian forces. I also debate about some kind of NATO force, most likely a British/Commonwealth Brigade....and yes I do add an Aussie battalion to the mix. Yes, it draws units from the CENTAG/NORTHAG mix...but I've always had issues with what GDW "sent" in that front.

And just for arguments sake...what in the world were they thinking when they decided to ship MILGOV/CIVGOV forces to Yugoslavia? Got tired of fighting against overwhelming odds and decided to enter Europe's free-fire zone?

Don't forget the Iranian Army - these play quite a large part in the war.

[dragoon500ly]

Don't forget the Iranian Army - these play quite a large part in the war.

GDW forget the Iranian Army. I've always felt that a lot more than 5 divisions survived. My own game has between 12-15 divisions surviving and help holding the line.

[James Langham]

GDW forget the Iranian Army. I've always felt that a lot more than 5 divisions survived. My own game has between 12-15 divisions surviving and help holding the line.

I'm not sure they did, I assume that they disperse and act as guerrillas or bandits, tying down a lot of Soviet troops.

[Abbott Shaull]

In World War Two, here in the UK we spent 1940-1944 training a division for mountain and arctic warfare then deployed it to Holland...

Well the current 10th Mountain Division is much like the 101st an Airborne Division. True that Fort Drum is close to the mountains in up state New York, but it was basically Light Infantry unit. Much like the 101st is organized along similar lines of the 82nd Airborne Division, the Division is trained in Air Assault and Airmobile operations.

Even in WWII their was a couple Divisions trained in the US that were called Mountain Divisions, I believe only the 10th made it to Italy...

[Abbott Shaull]

After rereading some of Harold Coyle's novels and RDF sourcebook as well; the impression you get is that the push to hold onto Iran was a desire to have as much strategic depth as possible in order to protect the Saudi/Gulf oil fields. Okay, makes sense...but the force commitment is what is so screwed. A single heavy division, no matter the size its commander's balls is going to be able to push against 1 or more Soviet armies. Even dropping the 82nd behind the lines to break the LOC would run into serious trouble from the 2nd & 3rd echlon divisions. And while the ole maroon beret may make its wearer semi-bulletproof....it doesn't have any effect when the enemy switchs from 7.62mm to 152mm...(now if the 82nd pulled a Chuck Norris and ripped off their BDU shirts and exposed their heroic manly chests....and a salute to Steve Jackson and his Heroic Hollywood Nudity stat!). Nope CENTCOM doesn't have the force structure to do half of what the canon material says they did.

My own feelings is that in order to pull off the "canon" material, CENTCOM had to have some form of additional force. My approach is to add two heavy divisions, an ACR, an LCR as well as some additional Iranian forces. I also debate about some kind of NATO force, most likely a British/Commonwealth Brigade....and yes I do add an Aussie battalion to the mix. Yes, it draws units from the CENTAG/NORTHAG mix...but I've always had issues with what GDW "sent" in that front.

And just for arguments sake...what in the world were they thinking when they decided to ship MILGOV/CIVGOV forces to Yugoslavia? Got tired of fighting against overwhelming odds and decided to enter Europe's free-fire zone?
Yeah I have to agree there would of had sent more to hold. Look back at the first PG1 they had nearly half of the Regular US Army sitting in the Desert.

Then we have current operation in Iraq of the last 8 or so year that throw things askew. Granted their isn't a fighting Soviet Front thrown into the match. Yet, GDW has sent only 1 Airborne, 1 Air Assault, 1 Mechanized, 1 Light Motorized (Test-Bed) and 2 Marine Divisions with 1 Air Combat Cavalry Brigade does seem too light. I agree that couple more Heavy Divisions and ACR or two wouldn't hurt.

As for the 82nd being sent to cut the LOC of the advance Soviet unit that were engaged with the 3rd US Army and its allied forces.

What I do see even with the 82nd and 101st Division is that they would cross-attach a Brigade with other US Army Division to balance out the forces. In the resource book GDW stated that each Division was regular pulled from the fronts lines and shipped to Saudi for rest and refit.

Another thing I am sure the British would have sent more in the lines of Commonwealth Division in which HQ, support units, and one or more combat Brigade from the UK and the rest from whatever they could scrounge up from Commonwealth members.

[Abbott Shaull]

I'm not sure they did, I assume that they disperse and act as guerrillas or bandits, tying down a lot of Soviet troops.

Yeah their would be some units who would support the US, others would support the Soviets. While many probably would be good Iranians and fight whatever satan who happen to currently 'own' the local area at the time.

[HorseSoldier]

Well, the GDW Iran had a moderate and pro-western sort of government. Some Iranians might take up arms against everyone, but I'd think the Soviet invaders would be seen as a bigger threat than the western support (especially since in the T2K timeline the Soviets were still "waging war against Islam" in Afghanistan, if I remember right).

The other thing to remember in the T2K timeline is that Israel and the Palestinians reached some sort of amicable settlement. I'd guess that at the peak of the conventional war, a larger IDF expeditionary than is shown in theater circa 2000 was on the scene, after they settled their slugging match with Syria.

[Legbreaker]

On the Soviet side, the units available are apparently less than reliable with a number of units only held in check by the KGB units shoving them forward. In that environment, I don't see a huge need for a strong western presence to create the situation we're presented with.

The whole region though is a bit of a mess with what appears to be several different factions within the same nationality (looking predominately at the locals here). We've also got the French in the background too which can only help the western cause (because they're mostly unaffected by the greater world war). Might not have a lot of troops on the ground and in the front lines, but just the threat of them post winter 97-98 is likely to put a check on Pact offensive intentions (or at least make the commanders think twice about it).

[dragoon500ly]

Guess it all boils down to what the GM feels most comfortable with. I perfer to go with a reinforced CENTCOM and a larger Iranian Army. I also go with a more even mix as far as the Soviets go. Wargaming it out allows for a more balanced fight. Roleplaying it allows for more options for the players.

But I still question the DoDs choice of units for the RDF. It always stank too much of "we have all of these Light Divisions, now how can we publicize them?"

[Rainbow Six]

Another thing I am sure the British would have sent more in the lines of Commonwealth Division in which HQ, support units, and one or more combat Brigade from the UK and the rest from whatever they could scrounge up from Commonwealth members.

I think the problem with sending additional British forces is simply where would these forces come from? It's not impossible, however the overwhelming majority of the British Army would already be committed elsewhere, so unless one advocates increasing the British Army's strength to more than it was in real life, any additional troops sent to the Gulf would have to mean less troops available for other roles (imho probably BAOR reinforcements or UK Home Defence).

Also, with regards to the Commonwealth, whilst it's possible that Commonwealth members would send troops to the Middle East (or Korea and Hong Kong for that matter), I think it's important to note that the Commonwealth now is completely different to what it was at the start of the Second World War when the UK declared War on Germany and various Commonwealth members duly followed suit in line with the Mother Country.

Commonwealth members now are all independent states (I think their only tie is that they retain the Queen as their Head of State), so would be under no obligation to enter WW3 as a belligerent on the Allied side (Canada is an obvious exception as it is also a member of NATO). I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen and the Commonwealth nations wouldn't answer the mother country's call, just it's not something that I would take for granted.

As ever, my comments based primarily on a V1 timeline, although whilst canon mentions various Commonwealth members fighting "local" Wars, e.g. India fighting Pakistan and (I think) Australia fighting Indonesia I don't believe there's anything in canon for either version to confirm one way or the other whether any of them - other than Canada - were active participants in the "Global" War?

Well, the GDW Iran had a moderate and pro-western sort of government. Some Iranians might take up arms against everyone, but I'd think the Soviet invaders would be seen as a bigger threat than the western support (especially since in the T2K timeline the Soviets were still "waging war against Islam" in Afghanistan, if I remember right).

The other thing to remember in the T2K timeline is that Israel and the Palestinians reached some sort of amicable settlement. I'd guess that at the peak of the conventional war, a larger IDF expeditionary than is shown in theater circa 2000 was on the scene, after they settled their slugging match with Syria.

To be honest, given the efforts made to keep the IDF out of the first Gulf War (which I realise came after the RDF sourcebook was published), the presence of an IDF contingent always struck me as one of the more "out there" parts of the sourcebook. The cynic in me always thought it was done purely as a mechanism to allow players to play IDF characters.

Granted, I am probably biased here - I much preferred the sort of scenario put forward in Harold Coyle's Sword Point to the one portrayed in the RDF Sourcebook.

[dragoon500ly]

I think the problem with sending additional British forces is simply where would these forces come from? It's not impossible, however the overwhelming majority of the British Army would already be committed elsewhere, so unless one advocates increasing the British Army's strength to more than it was in real life, any additional troops sent to the Gulf would have to mean less troops available for other roles (imho probably BAOR reinforcements or UK Home Defence).

Also, with regards to the Commonwealth, whilst it's possible that Commonwealth members would send troops to the Middle East (or Korea and Hong Kong for that matter), I think it's important to note that the Commonwealth now is completely different to what it was at the start of the Second World War when the UK declared War on Germany and various Commonwealth members duly followed suit in line with the Mother Country.

Commonwealth members now are all independent states (I think their only tie is that they retain the Queen as their Head of State), so would be under no obligation to enter WW3 as a belligerent on the Allied side (Canada is an obvious exception as it is also a member of NATO). I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen and the Commonwealth nations wouldn't answer the mother country's call, just it's not something that I would take for granted.

As ever, my comments based primarily on a V1 timeline, although whilst canon mentions various Commonwealth members fighting "local" Wars, e.g. India fighting Pakistan and (I think) Australia fighting Indonesia I don't believe there's anything in canon for either version to confirm one way or the other whether any of them - other than Canada - were active participants in the "Global" War?

The most likely reinforcement for the MEFF might be a recon regiment with Scorpions/Scimitars, possibly a Australian battalion group and, at most, a company from New Zealand. Anything more than that is really stretching the force mix. I've also pulled the Paras out of the Middle East, with an entire Airborne Division available, there would be little need for more paratroopers, IMHO.

To be honest, given the efforts made to keep the IDF out of the first Gulf War (which I realise came after the RDF sourcebook was published), the presence of an IDF contingent always struck me as one of the more "out there" parts of the sourcebook. The cynic in me always thought it was done purely as a mechanism to allow players to play IDF characters.

Granted, I am probably biased here - I much preferred the sort of scenario put forward in Harold Coyle's Sword Point to the one portrayed in the RDF Sourcebook.

Always had problems with the IDF/Jordanian mix itself, especially with the Israelis stationed in Iraqi, they would spend more times fighting the locals than the Soviet-backed locals.

[Rainbow Six]

The most likely reinforcement for the MEFF might be a recon regiment with Scorpions/Scimitars, possibly a Australian battalion group and, at most, a company from New Zealand. Anything more than that is really stretching the force mix. I've also pulled the Paras out of the Middle East, with an entire Airborne Division available, there would be little need for more paratroopers, IMHO.

My MEFF has a recon Squadron drawn from 1st Mech Bde's recon Regiment, but that's as far as I've gone in terms of changes.

Mind you, you could perhaps stretch British deployments slightly if you didn't have two Battalions sitting in Canada...

[dragoon500ly]

My MEFF has a recon Squadron drawn from 1st Mech Bde's recon Regiment, but that's as far as I've gone in terms of changes.

Mind you, you could perhaps stretch British deployments slightly if you didn't have two Battalions sitting in Canada...

I've always felt that with the example of the Sino-Soviet War, that NATO would have, at the very least, increased its readiness levels, reactivated some units, brought Reserve units up to a higher level of training. So I can see the two battalions maining the training area, but I can also see at least a handful of regiments being reactivated (no more than 4-7), that's where my extra forces come from.

[Rainbow Six]

I've always felt that with the example of the Sino-Soviet War, that NATO would have, at the very least, increased its readiness levels, reactivated some units, brought Reserve units up to a higher level of training. So I can see the two battalions maining the training area, but I can also see at least a handful of regiments being reactivated (no more than 4-7), that's where my extra forces come from.

Yes, I think that's a relatively common theme...I've done it myself and I've seen several other British Orders of Battle that have a modest number of reactivated Battalions.

[dragoon500ly]

Yes, I think that's a relatively common theme...I've done it myself and I've seen several other British Orders of Battle that have a modest number of reactivated Battalions.

The trick, of course, is to not go stark raving mad about it!

[Legbreaker]

The most likely reinforcement for the MEFF might be a recon regiment with Scorpions/Scimitars, possibly a Australian battalion group and, at most, a company from New Zealand.
You can forget about Australian troops being involved in the Middle East with a war raging with Indonesian, and a potential UN involvement in Korea. Same for New Zealand - local needs come well before foreign deployment.

[dragoon500ly]

You can forget about Australian troops being involved in the Middle East with a war raging with Indonesian, and a potential UN involvement in Korea. Same for New Zealand - local needs come well before foreign deployment.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Australia import a sizable percentage of oil from the Persian Gulf? With a local war threating/halting oil production from the Indonesian fields, would not the Australian government seriously consider commiting a battalion group, if only to acquire badly need oil?

The arguement can be made either way, it all boils down to how much crude oil is available, and how much refinery capacity survived any Soviet nukes. I'm just advancing a theory that the Australian government may see the need to secure both, a product that CENTCOM seems to have enough of.

Have to admit though, I neglected to consider any Australian commitment to Korea; but just how much would Australia send? I can see a battalion group, possibly two, but would a brigade be sent? Or would Australia decide a division would have to be committed?

LOL, this is where the lack of canon material on Korea inserts a monkey wrench!

[Adm.Lee]

One of the reasons why the Italian Campaign of WWII was such a meatgrinder, all of the trained "mountain" divisions had been deployed elsewhere. It was only until the French and their Algerian troops were deployed that mountain-trained troops actually fought in the mountains....

Well, until the French/Africans showed up, there were hardly any Allied mountain troops. The US was still training the 10th division (1 regiment went to the Aleutians for a while), the Indian 4th division had had some mountain training, but had been fighting in the Desert for a while. Other than the aforementioned 52nd, that was about it.

[HorseSoldier]

Have to admit though, I neglected to consider any Australian commitment to Korea; but just how much would Australia send? I can see a battalion group, possibly two, but would a brigade be sent? Or would Australia decide a division would have to be committed?


I doubt they'd send anyone. Probably helping back stop the UK division in Hong Kong, rather than sending troops to Korea. The ROK Army in 1996/7 isn't going to need international bailing out at anything remotely approximating the level seen in the 1950s.

[Legbreaker]

Australia can barely scrape together a single Division on anything less than about 12 months notice. Any more and reservists have to be called up and trained.
Australia also has it's own oil reserves. It may not be massively productive Fields like Texas or the North Sea, but there should be enough production post nuke to support the country's vital needs (especially if a couple of the cities got hit).
Regarding China vs Korea, Korea would get the troops without a doubt. Korea is essentially a UN operation (regardless of who's actually commanding), while China is basically a fight between two sovereign nations - the USSR (plus allies) and China (plus whoever was in the area and got caught up in it).
North Korea has long been seen as the BIG EVIL in the area, much more than the Soviets. North Korea also has no/less nukes (depending on how you want to look at it), which means less likelihood of Australians being irradiated.

Regardless of where the troops went, the moment hostilities broke out with Indonesia they would be recalled - Australia simply doesn't have the manpower to hold off such a huge military (even a poorly trained, led and equipped military as Indonesia at the time). Same thing happened in WWII when the Japanese were coming across Papua New Guinea - the Divisions in the middle east (mainly northern Africa) were recalled immediately and sent from the deserts to the mountainous jungles.

[dragoon500ly]

Australia can barely scrape together a single Division on anything less than about 12 months notice. Any more and reservists have to be called up and trained.
Australia also has it's own oil reserves. It may not be massively productive Fields like Texas or the North Sea, but there should be enough production post nuke to support the country's vital needs (especially if a couple of the cities got hit).
Regarding China vs Korea, Korea would get the troops without a doubt. Korea is essentially a UN operation (regardless of who's actually commanding), while China is basically a fight between two sovereign nations - the USSR (plus allies) and China (plus whoever was in the area and got caught up in it).
North Korea has long been seen as the BIG EVIL in the area, much more than the Soviets. North Korea also has no/less nukes (depending on how you want to look at it), which means less likelihood of Australians being irradiated.

Regardless of where the troops went, the moment hostilities broke out with Indonesia they would be recalled - Australia simply doesn't have the manpower to hold off such a huge military (even a poorly trained, led and equipped military as Indonesia at the time). Same thing happened in WWII when the Japanese were coming across Papua New Guinea - the Divisions in the middle east (mainly northern Africa) were recalled immediately and sent from the deserts to the mountainous jungles.

Ouch! Another good idea meets up with cold reality! :p

Thanks for the info!

[Abbott Shaull]

Ouch! Another good idea meets up with cold reality! :p

Thanks for the info!

The reality is for many nation this would be the case, due to the fact had all made deep cuts even before the end of the cold war.

[dragoon500ly]

The reality is for many nation this would be the case, due to the fact had all made deep cuts even before the end of the cold war.

The issue remains just what kind of response would NATO have made, especially with the Sino-Soviet War starting to kick off, not to mention intelligence that something was brewing inbetween the Germanies.

At the very least we have more weapons rolling from the production lines, there should have been some call-up of selected Reserves. And if the intelligence people were really on the ball, there could have have been re-activation of units....even call up of the Individual Ready Reserve, its happened before with a lot less provocation, with a major shooting war in the Far East this could easily happen.

This is also the time period of Reagan-Bush and Maggie Thatcher...two Presidents and a Prime Minister that didn't have a lot of back-up when the Soviets were concerned. I can especially see Reagan pushing an even larger increase of the military...

So we can argue the point back and forth....my own view is that NATO would have done something to be a bit more prepared....

[Legbreaker]

Just going on memory, didn't the middle east flare up after Europe? Therefore it's no surprise that the middle east received what is essentially the dregs of the various nations militaries (in as far as they were the only units not already deployed).
In that case it doesn't matter what the best mix of units might be - the only mix is what little is available and hope to hell that it's able to do the job.

[Abbott Shaull]

Just going on memory, didn't the middle east flare up after Europe? Therefore it's no surprise that the middle east received what is essentially the dregs of the various nations militaries (in as far as they were the only units not already deployed).
In that case it doesn't matter what the best mix of units might be - the only mix is what little is available and hope to hell that it's able to do the job.

By canon, yes. Ironically the entire chain of events goes with Soviet-Sino War. Then Soviets getting their arse handed to them on gold plate. Soviet pull units from Europe and activating their units in the Soviet Union. Then someone in Moscow gets the bright idea to request "Volunteers" to help out in China, from their Pact Allies. The Pact with mix feeling sent units to the East and started to call up and build up troops. The meat grinder was so bad there was second and third call for help.

Sometime after the second call, somewhere in the Military Leadership of the East German Armed Forces starts to have high level talks with their counter-parts in West Germany. They didn't mind losing people if they were fight the evil west, but they were balking at the loses that their units were taking in China. Somewhere the West German Army moves into East Germany and about couple months later you have WWIII.

Somewhere along the way the US and UK started their build up. Some 6 weeks to 3 months later they enter the war to help reinforce the German Army. Leaving NATO torn up and some countries out right siding with the Pact. While other members of the Pact effective breakaway to only get hammered themselves by the newest members of the Pact.

Some time too Korea takes off in effort to draw US Troops from reinforcing Europe.

Then Soviet get the bright idea to take Iran and to cut oil supplies to West Europe, China and Japan. US and UK decide to send units to the Middle East to prevent the Soviet from reaching the Persian Gulf Coast and closing the straits that the oil tankers have to travel through. For some strange reason Pakistan and India start shooting each other, especially when the Soviet move one Army from Afghanistan into Iran to help that Front out from that direction with the hopes of getting to the location to close the straits. In effect drawing weapons supplies that were coming into Afghanistan over land from Pakistan off.

Along the way several other localized wars start. In many cases, these are started at the urging of the Soviets to keep non-Soviet Allies from reinforcing any of the fronts that they were currently fighting and introduction of Nukes did take much longer.

So yeah to answer you question, yeah as per canon the Middle East was largely an afterthought for the US and UK and other allies. Another thing is the allies of Iraq and Syria seem to being a whole lot of nothing. They may have made token attacks towards Turkey, but they did nothing to help the Soviets on their conquest of Iran. Again the Syrian and Iraq had Jordan border and Syrian had the Isreal Border to keep troops at.

What is more interesting there really isn't much reason for the Saudi or the other City-States of the Persian Gulf to play host to the US Central Command and British forces there. As for sending more heavy units, the ones that have been suggested were from the east Coast. Maybe they were going to Korea to help reinforce the 8th US Army and UN commitment there, and got diverted. The 9th Motorized Division, 1st and 3rd Marine Divisions with their bases along the Pacific would be perfect example of unit being diverted to give the US Central Command more punch.

Also diverting the 40th Mechanized wouldn't be too bad, they were from California and probably would of been sent to Korea as reinforcement first off. The 24th Mechanized Division as it stands probably had it two active duty Brigade diverted to Europe at the start of the fighting to bring up III Corps units. The 24th Mechanized that was sent Iraq only when it new troops had been trained and were ready to ship out to Europe, but then sent to Iraq to reinforce Central Command.

With 1st Mechanized, 4th Mechanized, 5th Mechanized, 1st Cavalry, and 2nd Armor Divisions as well as the 3rd ARC, 194th Armor Brigade, and 197th Mechanized Brigade sending their troops that were on active duty still in the States over to take over Preposition equipment. Each of the Division had left their equipment at their state side bases, so 5 Divisional HQ, Support, 2 out three Combat, and Aviation Brigades could be reformed with 1 ACR, and 2 other Brigade to boot. I am sure one could organize an additional Armor and Mechanized Divisions for the Middle East at the cost of reinforcing Europe with fresh troops and slightly used equipment.

Canon says this equipment was being used to refit National Guard units, but in real life many of the units that were refitted already had been refitted with the equipment, so there was still equipment to spare. The only problem would have been getting new recruits trained and ready, then ship them off to a front they weren't quite expecting to fight in. Kinda like 1st Mechanized Division going to the Desert fighting in their Woodland Camos during the 1st PGW. Not to far of stretch if things are written up correctly.

Just some thoughts.

[dragoon500ly]

Just going on memory, didn't the middle east flare up after Europe? Therefore it's no surprise that the middle east received what is essentially the dregs of the various nations militaries (in as far as they were the only units not already deployed).
In that case it doesn't matter what the best mix of units might be - the only mix is what little is available and hope to hell that it's able to do the job.

According to the RDF sourcebook, the Soviets invade Iran in 1995, CENTCOM is delayed by lack of shipping until 1996 and go right into Saudi Arabia with CENTCOM/Transcaucasus Front crossing barrels towards the end of 1996/97

[dragoon500ly]

Then Soviet get the bright idea to take Iran and to cut oil supplies to West Europe, China and Japan. US and UK decide to send units to the Middle East to prevent the Soviet from reaching the Persian Gulf Coast and closing the straits that the oil tankers have to travel through. For some strange reason Pakistan and India start shooting each other, especially when the Soviet move one Army from Afghanistan into Iran to help that Front out from that direction with the hopes of getting to the location to close the straits. In effect drawing weapons supplies that were coming into Afghanistan over land from Pakistan off.

When you start talking India/Pakistan, only the intervention by the superpowers keeps things quiet....otherwise, India would dearly love to knock off Pakistan, once and for all.

So yeah to answer you question, yeah as per canon the Middle East was largely an afterthought for the US and UK and other allies. Another thing is the allies of Iraq and Syria seem to being a whole lot of nothing. They may have made token attacks towards Turkey, but they did nothing to help the Soviets on their conquest of Iran. Again the Syrian and Iraq had Jordan border and Syrian had the Isreal Border to keep troops at.
What is more interesting there really isn't much reason for the Saudi or the other City-States of the Persian Gulf to play host to the US Central Command and British forces there. As for sending more heavy units, the ones that have been suggested were from the east Coast. Maybe they were going to Korea to help reinforce the 8th US Army and UN commitment there, and got diverted. The 9th Motorized Division, 1st and 3rd Marine Divisions with their bases along the Pacific would be perfect example of unit being diverted to give the US Central Command more punch.
Also diverting the 40th Mechanized wouldn't be too bad, they were from California and probably would of been sent to Korea as reinforcement first off. The 24th Mechanized Division as it stands probably had it two active duty Brigade diverted to Europe at the start of the fighting to bring up III Corps units. The 24th Mechanized that was sent Iraq only when it new troops had been trained and were ready to ship out to Europe, but then sent to Iraq to reinforce Central Command.[\QUOTE]

There was always a lot of doubt as to the 40th MID going to Korea, during the period covered by T2K, it was always Middle East/Korea/NATO...by the end of the '80s, early '90s, the talk was NATO reinforcement with a Middle East deployment possible. One of the reasons that I feel fry to post them into the Gulf.

[QUOTE]With 1st Mechanized, 4th Mechanized, 5th Mechanized, 1st Cavalry, and 2nd Armor Divisions as well as the 3rd ARC, 194th Armor Brigade, and 197th Mechanized Brigade sending their troops that were on active duty still in the States over to take over Preposition equipment. Each of the Division had left their equipment at their state side bases, so 5 Divisional HQ, Support, 2 out three Combat, and Aviation Brigades could be reformed with 1 ACR, and 2 other Brigade to boot. I am sure one could organize an additional Armor and Mechanized Divisions for the Middle East at the cost of reinforcing Europe with fresh troops and slightly used equipment.

There are two possible ways to reinforce CENTCOM, either slide 1-2 heavy divisions over as reinforcements or deploy 3-4 of the NG armored/mechanized brigades to reinforce...but that kills the idea of the 44th Armored.

[HorseSoldier]

The 24th Mechanized Division as it stands probably had it two active duty Brigade diverted to Europe at the start of the fighting to bring up III Corps units. The 24th Mechanized that was sent Iraq only when it new troops had been trained and were ready to ship out to Europe, but then sent to Iraq to reinforce Central Command.

I'd doubt that. The situation in Europe isn't so critical that it would justify pulling the only heavy unit slated to help defend Middle Eastern oil supplies out of the mix. I'm actually not certain what level of badness would justify cutting 24th ID out of CENTCOM's force mix -- even if they're Dunkirking the remnants of USAREUR off the beaches, you've still got to hold the oil supply in the Middle East or face the possibility of defeat on a global, not theater, level. The thing I am skeptical about is that XVIII Airborne would collectively be held in reserve and out of theater until March of 97 -- more likely, I'd think, would be surging them into the region as soon as the shooting war starts in Europe.

There are two possible ways to reinforce CENTCOM, either slide 1-2 heavy divisions over as reinforcements or deploy 3-4 of the NG armored/mechanized brigades to reinforce...but that kills the idea of the 44th Armored.

Realistically, XVIII Abn probably gets punched up with the addition of the 197th and 194th brigades (which is what GDW shows in the Middle East portion of their WW III wargame). An ACR would be nice to have also, but realistically the 9th Lt Mot guys in T2K are filling that role for XVIII and given the distances and low troop density of the theater are probably doing it better than a heavy cavalry regiment could.

In the T2K alternate universe by the time the war kicked off the National Guard had punched up their readiness to the point where the round out brigades worked -- not an entirely unreasonable idea given that the Sino-Soviet War would have potentially provided serious motivation to get the NG and USAR ready to go to war. So 24th ID going downrange with 48th Mech Bde in tow is probably reasonable.

Add in the 194th and 197th, with their strategic reserve role being taken over by two or all three brigades from 44th Armored (which I agree, is kind of a silly unit, insofar as that's not how the NG Separate Armored and Infantry Brigades were supposed to be employed -- though to be fair I think it and a couple other divisions like 43rd were depicted as an editorial decision to keep overall length of USAVG down).

Adjusting for the situation, it probably yields something like:

194th Arm'd Brigade -- XVIII Airborne
197th Arm'd Brigade -- XVIII Airborne

157th Mech Brigade (from 43rd Inf Div) -- To III Corps in USAREUR
187th Inf Brigade (from 43rd Inf Div) -- Iceland Defense Force
205th Inf Brigade (from 43rd Inf Div) -- To 6th ID(L) (their actual round out unit)

30th SIB (from 44th AD) -- Strat Reserve @ Benning
31st SAB (from 44th AD) -- Strat Reserve @ Knox
218th SIB (from 44th AD) -- to III Corps in USAREUR

Or something like that. Putting 30th and 31st brigades at Knox and Benning allows them to pretty directly cover down on the 194th/197th storylines in the T2K timeline, though I suppose by the time XVIII punches out for the desert they could have just taken 30th/31st with them and left 194th/197th in place, though it seems like the combat power of the regular army units would be preferable in a low density theater.

[Legbreaker]

As far as I am aware, Iran and the west didn't have a lot of love for each other in the early to mid 90's. My guess is the late deployment to the area wasn't just due to lack of transportation, but also political manoeuvring - lots of background diplomacy/espionage/assassinations to ensure the government(s) of the day was friendly before putting boots on the ground.

[dragoon500ly]

In the T2K alternate universe by the time the war kicked off the National Guard had punched up their readiness to the point where the round out brigades worked -- not an entirely unreasonable idea given that the Sino-Soviet War would have potentially provided serious motivation to get the NG and USAR ready to go to war. So 24th ID going downrange with 48th Mech Bde in tow is probably reasonable.

Add in the 194th and 197th, with their strategic reserve role being taken over by two or all three brigades from 44th Armored (which I agree, is kind of a silly unit, insofar as that's not how the NG Separate Armored and Infantry Brigades were supposed to be employed -- though to be fair I think it and a couple other divisions like 43rd were depicted as an editorial decision to keep overall length of USAVG down).

Adjusting for the situation, it probably yields something like:

194th Arm'd Brigade -- XVIII Airborne
197th Mech Brigade -- XVIII Airborne

157th Mech Brigade (from 43rd Inf Div) -- To III Corps in USAREUR
187th Inf Brigade (from 43rd Inf Div) -- Iceland Defense Force
205th Inf Brigade (from 43rd Inf Div) -- To 6th ID(L) (their actual round out unit)

30th SIB (from 44th AD) -- Strat Reserve @ Benning
31st SAB (from 44th AD) -- Strat Reserve @ Knox
218th SIB (from 44th AD) -- to III Corps in USAREUR

Or something like that. Putting 30th and 31st brigades at Knox and Benning allows them to pretty directly cover down on the 194th/197th storylines in the T2K timeline, though I suppose by the time XVIII punches out for the desert they could have just taken 30th/31st with them and left 194th/197th in place, though it seems like the combat power of the regular army units would be preferable in a low density theater.

Now that I'm home and have the books!!!! The 2nd Edition Rulebook has PG1 pretty much as it was in 1991. The Sino-Soviet War kicks off in 1995, no mention of month, but the impression I get is Spring. June/July of 1996 is the time period of the initial German attack into Poland with November of that year seeing the first WP counterattacks, this is the period when the US/UK/Canadian forces join the Germans.

Switching to the RDF Sourcebook, the canon has 1988/90 opening with the death of Ayatollah Khomeyni's successor and the Iran Nowin movement gaining control of the country. This is the government that keys down the anti-US stance, ends the war with Iraq and starts to open back up to the West. 1st Edition rulebook had the Sino-Soviet War starting in 1993 with the Soviets invading Iran in 1995. 1996 has CENTCOM sending in a Special Forces Group as well as a ranger battalion. UK sends the MEFF and the French send in the GOLE (Foreign Legion).

1996 kicks off with Israel/Syria going into a stalemate after a bloody round of attack/counterattacks. The Iranian government splinters with the Tudeh/Pasdaran and Iran Nowin going for a short-lived civil war ending when the Soviets invade Iran in July. CENTCOM deploys headquarters to Saudi Arabia along with logistics elements in December. The first combat units enter SA at the start of January, 1997 with the 82nd ABN, another Special Forces Group and the Ranger Regiment (just how many battalions did the rangers raise in the twilight war?).

The US/Soviet forces first meet on the ground in May 1997.

With this timeline, even being adjusted for the offset in between 1st and 2nd Editions; the only possible logical reinforcements would be the 194th/197th brigades and possibly the 40th MID. The real argument then is if the US reactivates any divisions for service.

Damn, I hate giving up cherished plans!!!!!!

I still sat a ACR on the ground would be a hell of a lot more mobile than the 9th!!!!

[HorseSoldier]

Now that I'm home and have the books!!!! The 2nd Edition Rulebook has PG1 pretty much as it was in 1991. The Sino-Soviet War kicks off in 1995, no mention of month, but the impression I get is Spring. June/July of 1996 is the time period of the initial German attack into Poland with November of that year seeing the first WP counterattacks, this is the period when the US/UK/Canadian forces join the Germans.


The 2nd edition timeline is nonsensical. 1st Ed is acceptably plausible from the perspective of 1985 or so, but 2nd edition just doesn't make any sense and was a mediocre attempt at updating the game without anyone having to make any real effort to think things through and provide the same level of internal consistency that made 1st edition such a strong product.

With this timeline, even being adjusted for the offset in between 1st and 2nd Editions; the only possible logical reinforcements would be the 194th/197th brigades and possibly the 40th MID. The real argument then is if the US reactivates any divisions for service.

I can't see any additional divisions scratched together -- pre war there's the very significant task of trying to get the National Guard in a condition to actually fight a war. Once the war kicks off you've got less than a year before it goes nuclear, during which time there will be huge requirements for AFVs and personnel for battle casualty replacements. There's not going to be any significant slack in that mix to generate new divisions, judging by how close to zero combat power the late war USAR divisions are when formed.

I still sat a ACR on the ground would be a hell of a lot more mobile than the 9th!!!!

An ACR probably has a bigger fuel footprint than all of 9th ID (Lt Mot) combined, and 9th ID's systems are probably more logistically forgiving of wear and tear from operational level manuevers in the Middle East. The whole division combined also lacks the compact buzzsaw elegance of an American ACR, but for screening and economy of force in a theater as big and empty as Iran the light motorized guys would be better than heavy cav (lots of space to trade for time, etc.).

As far as I am aware, Iran and the west didn't have a lot of love for each other in the early to mid 90's. My guess is the late deployment to the area wasn't just due to lack of transportation, but also political manoeuvring - lots of background diplomacy/espionage/assassinations to ensure the government(s) of the day was friendly before putting boots on the ground.

Not so much Iran as Saudi -- the moment the war goes hot, I'd expect to see XVIII headed for Saudi Arabia post haste. The operations in Iran are more of an expeditionary effort after security of the Arabian peninsula is squared away.

[Legbreaker]

That's basically the way I see it as well - the oil fields of proven friendly (or at least not overtly hostile) need securing as soon as possible to allow the war effort elsewhere not to grind to a fueless halt. Once that's done those units in the area (whoever they may be) can be pushed forward towards the enemy in an effort to both increase the buffer zone and with luck acquire control over more fuel production areas (and deny them to the enemy).

[Louied]

Ok all this is what I have for IRL planned deployments circa 1988-1989 gleened from the following: (along with various websites)
1)Strategic Geography : NATO, the Warsaw Pact, and the Superpowers
http://www.amazon.com/Strategic-Geography-NATO-Warsaw-Superpowers/dp/0415009804/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1300333406&sr=8-3-spell
2)Inside the US Army
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-US-Army-Gordon-Rottman/dp/0850458552/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1300333472&sr=1-1
3)MANEUVER AND FIREPOWER: THE EVOLUTION OF DIVISIONS AND SEPARATE BRIGADES
http://www.history.army.mil/books/Lineage/M-F/index.htm

1 ID- VII Corps REFORGER
2 ID- Eighth Army ROK
3 ID- VII Corps
4 ID- V Corps REFORGER
5 ID- III Corps REFORGER
6 ID- TF Alaska, secondary to ROK
7 ID- to Eighth Army ROK
8 ID- V Corps
9 ID- coverting to Mech, SSR (L) POMCUS stocks in Cheshire UK, most likely deployment to Denmark/ Southern Norway
10 ID- AFNorth- Northern Norway
24 ID- XVIII Corps
25 ID- to Eighth Army ROK
82 Abn D- XVIII Corps
101 Abn D-XVIII Corps
1 Cav D- III Corps REFORGER
1 AD- VII Corps
2 AD- III Corps REFORGER
3 AD- V Corps
2 ACR- VII Corps
3 ACR- III Corps
11 ACR- V Corps
193 SIB- SOUTHCOM Panama
194 SAB- XVIII Corps
197 SIB- XVIII Corps
Berlin Bde- US Army, Europe
177 SAB- OPFOR Ft. Irwin

26 ID-I Corps/Strategic reserve
28 ID-I Corps/Strategic reserve
29 ID- Seventh Army
35 ID- VII Corps ?
38 ID- SOUTHCOM Reserve
40 ID- V Corps ?
42 ID- I Corps/Strategic reserve
47 ID- TF Alaska
49 AD- III Corps ?
50 AD-I Corps/Strategic reserve
107 ACR-I Corps/Strategic reserve
278 ACR- XVIII Corps
27 IB- RO 10 ID
29 SIB- to Eighth Army ROK (training association with 25 ID)
30 SIB- Seventh Army
30 SAB-Seventh Army
31 SAB-Seventh Army
32 SIB-TF Alaska
33 SIB- supports Infantry School
39 SIB- XVIII Corps
41 SIB- to Eighth Army ROK (training association with 7 ID)
45 SIB- III Corps (rear battle mission)
48 IB- RO 24 ID
53 SIB-SOUTHCOM Reserve
73 SIB-Seventh Army (rear battle mission)
81 IB- RO 9 ID
92 SIB-SOUTHCOM Reserve
116 CB- RO 4 ID
155 AB- RO 1 Cav D
163 SAB- ?
207 IG- TF Alaska
218 SIB-Seventh Army (training association with 1 ID)
256 IB- RO 5 ID

157 SIB- ?
187 SIB- Iceland Defence Force
205 IB- RO 6 ID

Hope someone can fill this out better or at least fill in what I have missing.

[HorseSoldier]

Part of the problem with the GDW Order of Battle is how casually they just miracled new Corps into existence, when any and all of the various support units and artillery and such just didn't exist anywhere in the US OOB for a lot of them.

[95th Rifleman]

The 2nd edition timeline is nonsensical. 1st Ed is acceptably plausible from the perspective of 1985 or so, but 2nd edition just doesn't make any sense and was a mediocre attempt at updating the game without anyone having to make any real effort to think things through and provide the same level of internal consistency that made 1st edition such a strong product.


That's pretty much how I view it. I run my games using the 1st ed timeline as it makes allot more sense.

[Legbreaker]

Part of the problem with the GDW Order of Battle is how casually they just miracled new Corps into existence, when any and all of the various support units and artillery and such just didn't exist anywhere in the US OOB for a lot of them.
They did however have roughly ten years from the moment of writing to when these units were supposed to be deployed. We really have no idea what happened in that period (and really don't need to). All we as players, GMs, etc need is to know they exist where and when they do.
The deployments and existence of certain units doesn't have to make a lot of sense in relation to the "real world" because it's just a game.

[Abbott Shaull]

For once I will go with Leg on this.

The next thing by time we start the game in t2k, many of the units that would of supported those Corps would have been absorbed by other units. Either the Corps or Army directly or spread out to the Divisions and Brigades as replacements.

So that doesn't really bother me much that the units and hardware needed to support all of the extra Corps and Armies didn't exist. Much can be said about the unified German Army and again the Soviet Union military forces to a lesser degree.. By the design of the game Corps, Armies, Army Groups, and Fronts have all lost their meaning in reality. I think this is one of the reason why many of the Divisions were down to such low numbers where they could barely exist as single combat Brigade on NATO side of things let alone as an actual Division.

[Adm.Lee]

To LouieD:thanks for the outline, there were some new things there for me.
- Notably that 9th motorized division had a POMCUS set in UK? That's the first I've heard of it. Do you know if that was for its LM organization, or standard infantry?

Regarding "new" corps HQs written up by GDW.
I was looking at another (massive) NATO OB file that I pulled from this list earlier. Some notes from that:
- IX Corps HQ (and presumably some support elements) are in Japan, I assume to run the ground fight in Korea once the 7th & 25th Divisions are flown in.
- I note that a "standard" corps has 1 brigade each of MP, air defense, and engineers, plus an armored cavalry regiment. In the National Guard & Reserve listings, there are 4 ACR, 3+ AD brigades and 8 MP brigades. Knowing that assumptions aren't worth much, let's work with the Army planned to set up 4 new Corps HQs when at full strength. Seeing as how all of the active Corps had odd numbers, I'd bet on them being II, IV, VI, and VIII Corps, all of which have "good" histories.
- For that matter, I see 21 Reserve and Guard field artillery brigades, when 1-3 are expected to support each corps. I also note 8 active brigades, so that comes close to a planning total of ten corps.

Aside: as I said elsewhere, I am in a PBEM game of GDW's Third World War boardgame. Now I want to try the Norway game with 10th & 9th US divisions.
Adding artillery would be fun, too, but I'd need to do a lot of Soviets, too.

[HorseSoldier]

I don't know. It's pretty clear in USAVG that a lot of the Corps involved weren't pre-planned, but thrown together once the war begins (i.e. X Corps in Alaska). I think this is an artifact of GDW thinking that there had to be a Corps HQ for any conglomeration of two or more divisions. In the case of Alaska, since there just aren't any other assets to the Corps, I'm of the opinion that CG 10th Mountain got handed a second hat as CG X Corps and told to have fun.

For that matter, I see 21 Reserve and Guard field artillery brigades, when 1-3 are expected to support each corps. I also note 8 active brigades, so that comes close to a planning total of ten corps.

A portion of those were intended to provide flexibility to commanders above the Corps level to plus up firepower to units in the attack or defense that needed the extra hitting power.

In the Twilight War a lot of those extra divisions in theater that are tossed into made up Corps would likely have been theater reserves that were attached out to subordinate Corps to allow rotating other units out of the line to reconstitute, etc.

[Louied]

I didn't know about the POMCUS stock in the UK either until I read 'Strategic Geography' , which states only that there was POMCUS stocks for a 18,000 man division. I have also read that the Army could no longer justify the 9th as the HTTB div. as Congress kept cutting weapons systems they wanted.... So the late 80's plan was to convert it to Mech (deleting a active bde & adding the WA ARNG's 81 Bde, 2 Armd/2 mech as a RO) and assign it as SACEUR's Strategic Reserve (Land) based in the UK. The most likely deployments were to reinforce the FRG/Danish corps in Schleswig-Holstein or Southern Norway.

As per Maneuver and Firepower, the 116 ACR & 163 ACR were converted to Armd Bde.'s as there was no need for them in the Army's force structure based on five Corps (I - 107 ACR, IIII- 3 ACR, V- 11 ACR, VII- 2 ACR, XVIII- 278 ACR)

[dragoon500ly]

I don't know. It's pretty clear in USAVG that a lot of the Corps involved weren't pre-planned, but thrown together once the war begins (i.e. X Corps in Alaska). I think this is an artifact of GDW thinking that there had to be a Corps HQ for any conglomeration of two or more divisions. In the case of Alaska, since there just aren't any other assets to the Corps, I'm of the opinion that CG 10th Mountain got handed a second hat as CG X Corps and told to have fun.



A portion of those were intended to provide flexibility to commanders above the Corps level to plus up firepower to units in the attack or defense that needed the extra hitting power.

What a lot of people are not aware of is that the ACRs have extra staff to allow them to control a wide range of attachments. 2ACR in PG1, just to name one example, had an entire field artillery brigade attached to it for the opening breach of the Iraqi lines. It was quite normal in the various REFORGERs to attach a armd, mech or attack helicopter battalion. When 2ACR was pulling border guard duty in Germany, a MI battalion was attached. Doesn't seem much, I know, but a brigade normally was enough staff to control between a max of 4-5 battalions. An ACR has enough to control 8-12 battalions. Yet another reason why ACRs are just so damn useful to have around.

[Panther Al]

Yet another reason why getting rid of the ACR's by making them a cookie cutter battalion is rather insane.

Once again, flexibility is dropped in order to give it... um... "flexibility". Yeah. About that...

[Adm.Lee]

I don't know. It's pretty clear in USAVG that a lot of the Corps involved weren't pre-planned, but thrown together once the war begins (i.e. X Corps in Alaska). I think this is an artifact of GDW thinking that there had to be a Corps HQ for any conglomeration of two or more divisions. In the case of Alaska, since there just aren't any other assets to the Corps, I'm of the opinion that CG 10th Mountain got handed a second hat as CG X Corps and told to have fun.


Well, it is a rule of military thumb that once you have at least two of something, you need a higher commander of some kind, to provide a clear chain of command.

In the case of the X Corps in Alaska, I agree that one was probably thrown together.

And I wonder if the separate brigades that were formed into the 44th division was some idea of USAREUR. When a 4-star general says, "I don't need three brigades, I want a division!"... he gets a division. With a slapped-together staff and supporting arms, of course.

Also, in my previous guesstimate, I overlooked that 1 of the ACRs was already spoken for, as the 107th is allocated to I Corps. FWIW, one of my wargaming pals was a battery commander in that regiment, he thought they were tasked for Korea.

[Legbreaker]

The best laid plans only last until contact with the enemy. From there on it's all about appropriate action and response to the unfolding situation.
Yes some units were slated to go to certain places, but that doesnt' mean that the situation at the time meant that's exactly what happened. An enemy offensive on one place may mean the unit loading up to go another place ends up retasked in transit.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Does anyone know where the 377th Military Intelligence fits? Or what units are based in and around Orlando?

I ask because I'm working on a sort of "Orlando Sourcebook" for my hopefully upcoming campaign. I've got it that most of the fallout from Tampa/St. Pete went south of Orlando, and most of what Patrick got blew out to sea.

This leaves Orlando relatively intact, and a jewel for New America to try and seize.

The Orlando of 2000 has a population right around 22000, most concentrated in the downtown area, near the hospital district, and the rest at the Orlando NTC (and literally right next door is the 377th's headquarters).

Whatever I end up calling the unit - probably it'll wind up as a "Joint Task Force Operations Area" of a few hundred soldiers, here's a very rough TO&E:

375+ troops
1000+ dependents
2x M113A1 (see below)
2x LAV-100
2x LAV-150
2x HEMTT
1x UH1 Iroquois
?x HMMWV

Post strike, the skeleton crew and cadets at the NTC were quickly put on civil support duties as were the skeleton crew of the 377th, and un-deployed personnel stationed at various R&D and support posts near the University of Central Florida and several military contractors based around the city proper, as well as Army reservists and USMC reservists.

Through the looting and riots that followed, coupled with desertions of personnel trying to either reach more distant homes or escape the urban chaos, the provisional "Sunshine Brigade" settled at around 375 personnel plus dependents. The unit is stationed at the Orlando NTC and is a frequent target of harassment by various factions throughout Florida, not the least of which is New America (See Into the Howling Wilderness).

The Brigade is, curiously, "armor heavy": Florida State Troopers maintained a barracks in south Orlando and the motor pool included a crisis response unit consisting of two LAV-150s. Likewise, the Orlando Police Department maintained two LAV-100s. Both are now in possession of the Brigade, traded in exchange for the Brigade's assistance and overwatch in keeping the city safe. But even more curious than these four armored cars are the two M113s. Three weeks and four days after TDM, these two vehicles (at the time in NASA emergency vehicle livery of white and pale green) arrived at the NTC carrying personnel and dependents from the now ruined Patrick AFB. The drivers had risked serious radiation exposure to retrieve the two APCs and escape the devastation to reach Orlando.

While the Commando scout cars and HMMWVs operate regularly, the M113s are kept under wraps. Both have had pintle-mounted .50 caliber guns installed. While threatening radio propaganda from New America have directly mentioned the Commandos, they either choose to ignore or do not know about the M113s.

Finally the Sunshine Brigade is in possession of a true treasure: a working helicopter. A single UH1 is based on the NTC grounds. The UH1 came from the Lockheed-Martin facility in East Orlando. It is still flightworthy as on the day of the initial strikes, it was in a specially designed hangar undergoing EW testing on the airframe, and was thus insulated from the EMP. Many of the personnel who stayed on with the Brigade are Army Aviation and thus there is no shortage of qualified crew. The UH1 has a door-mounted M134 mini-gun on the portside, and a sling-mounted M60 starboard. There is plentiful avgas at Herndon Municipal Airport, although it has to be trucked a few miles through hostile territory. New America sorely wants the aircraft intact, as well as the avgas, and attempts take Orlando have been mounted before. The Sunshine Brigade's mobility and resources have thus far won out, however.

Be gentle, this is an alpha copy.

[dragoon500ly]

A lot of the units in the FL/GA area are assigned to Third Army/CENTCOM if they are Regulars or NATO reinforcement if they are Reserve/National Guard. Tampa, at one time, was CENTCOM headquarters. Hope this helps!

[dragoon500ly]

Now that we have pretty well hashed out the Middle East, let's take a look at
Korea.

According to the American Combat Vehicle Guide, the Eight U.S. Army consists of:

II Amphibious Corps
4th Marine Division (23rd Marines only) [400 mne, 7 M60A3]
5th Marine Division [2,000 men, 9 M-60A3]
6th Marine Division (16 Marines only) [600 men, 4 M-60A3]
II Corps
7th Light Infantry Division (1st Brigade only) [500 men]
26th Light Infantry Division [5,000 men, 13 LAV-75]
45th Infantry Division [2,000 men]
VI Corps
2nd Infantry Division [2,000 men, 4 M-1]
25th Light Infantry Division [600 men]
41st Infantry Division [2,000 men]
163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment [300 men, 4 LAV-75]

or a total of 3,000 Marines and 12,400 Soldiers in nine divisions and one ACR.

Anybody running any OOBs for the Korean Peninsula?

[Abbott Shaull]

Eighth US Army

II Amphibious Corps
3rd Marine Division [1,200 men, 5 M1]
5th Marine Division [2,000 men, 9 M60A3]
6th Marine Division [1,600 men, 8 M60A3]
II Corps
7th Light Infantry Division [1,500 men, 3 M60A3]
23rd Infantry Division [1,500 men, 5 M1]
45th Infantry Division [2,000 men, 2 M60A3]
4th Armor Cavalry Regiment[500 men, 2 M60A3]
VI Corps
2nd Infantry Division [2,000 men, 4 M1]
25th Light Infantry Division [1,200 men, 5 M60A3]
41st Infantry Division [2,000 men, 3 M60A3]
163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment [300 men, 4 M60A3]

I feel that the 3rd Marine Division would of been committed to Korea before sent to the Middle East.

Also replaced the 26th Light Infantry with the 23rd Infantry Division which would be formed in Japan before moving to Korea.

The 4th Armor Cavalry Regiment would be new formation that would be rushed to Korea to give both Army Corps their heavy formation.

Just some thoughts.

[Legbreaker]

For Korea, Australia might be able to send over one infantry Brigade which would likely be 9 Brigade. It's current IRL strength is only about 35% but given 12 months it should be ready for action. I picked 9 Bde because it contains the southernmost units in the country and most acclimatised. Most other units train in the tropics while at least 12/40 Bn and 16 Field Battery know all about mountainous terrain and sub zero temps being drawn from Tasmania.

The heaviest armour is the 9 M113A1 MRVs (M113s with Scorpion turrets) although I'm tempted to add a troop of Leopard 1s.

9 Brigade
HQ 9 Brigade (Army Reserve)
3/9 Light Horse (South Australian Mounted Rifles) (APC) (M113) (Army Reserve)M113 Regimental HQ Troop (M577)
Sabre squadron, A (M113AS4 x14)
Sabre squadron, B (M113AS4 x14)
Combat Support Squadron (M113A1 MRV x9, M113AS4 x3)
6/13 Field Regiment (Army Reserve)
16 Field Battery (M2A2 105mm howitzer x6, Unimog 1700L LWB x6)
48 Field Battery (M2A2 105mm howitzer x6, Unimog 1700L LWB x6)
3 Field Squadron (Combat Engineers) (Army Reserve)

144 Signal Squadron (9 Command Support Regiment) (Army Reserve)

10/27 Battalion, The Royal South Australian Regiment (Army Reserve)

12/40 Battalion, The Royal Tasmanian Regiment (Army Reserve)
A Company
B Company
C (Training) Company
Support CompanyMortar platoon (F2 81mm Mortar x4)
Heavy Weapons platoon (M60 SFMG x 6, M2 Carl Gustav x6
Assault Pioneer Platoon (weapons as per rifle platoon plus specialist equipment)
9 Combat Service Support Battalion (Army Reserve)
Transport Company
Health Company
Supply Company
Maintenance Company
Logistic Support Company

Still working on the orbat, but enough to get an idea of capabilities I think.
The rest of the Australian forces (besides a handful of naval assets) would be fully engaged against Indonesia or occupied in civil duties.

[dragoon500ly]

Eighth US Army

II Amphibious Corps
3rd Marine Division [1,200 men, 5 M1]
5th Marine Division [2,000 men, 9 M60A3]
6th Marine Division [1,600 men, 8 M60A3]
II Corps
7th Light Infantry Division [1,500 men, 3 M60A3]
23rd Infantry Division [1,500 men, 5 M1]
45th Infantry Division [2,000 men, 2 M60A3]
4th Armor Cavalry Regiment[500 men, 2 M60A3]
VI Corps
2nd Infantry Division [2,000 men, 4 M1]
25th Light Infantry Division [1,200 men, 5 M60A3]
41st Infantry Division [2,000 men, 3 M60A3]
163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment [300 men, 4 M60A3]

I feel that the 3rd Marine Division would of been committed to Korea before sent to the Middle East.

Also replaced the 26th Light Infantry with the 23rd Infantry Division which would be formed in Japan before moving to Korea.

The 4th Armor Cavalry Regiment would be new formation that would be rushed to Korea to give both Army Corps their heavy formation.

Just some thoughts.

Or simply swap 3rd and 4th Marine Divisions. Intresting idea. As for an ACR, there was talk in some of the old Armor Journals about adding additional ACRs to the Army in the late 80's; the numbers they were talking was 6th, 10th and 14th. No idea if these were the planned numbers, but all three have been former ACRs through the 50s-60s...so, reasonable assumption would go for those three.

[dragoon500ly]

For Korea, Australia might be able to send over one infantry Brigade which would likely be 9 Brigade. It's current IRL strength is only about 35% but given 12 months it should be ready for action. I picked 9 Bde because it contains the southernmost units in the country and most acclimatised. Most other units train in the tropics while at least 12/40 Bn and 16 Field Battery know all about mountainous terrain and sub zero temps being drawn from Tasmania.

Still working on the orbat, but enough to get an idea of capabilities I think.
The rest of the Australian forces (besides a handful of naval assets) would be fully engaged against Indonesia or occupied in civil duties.

So Australia might commit a brigade, reinforced by anything from New Zealand?

Don't see any British commitment, short of moving the 6th Division over from Chinese control when Eighth Army reached the Yalu River. We were reacing to get something meaningful for the MEFF.

It is possible that Canada might furnish a battalion/brigade group, but we run into the same thing as far as force structure goes.

A member of my local gaming group suggested Japan might furnish a division or two for Korea, aside from the issues with the Japanese constitution, there is also the memories for the Koreans of the last time the Japanese were on the peninsula so I really doubt any troops from that source....any thoughts?

[Adm.Lee]

A member of my local gaming group suggested Japan might furnish a division or two for Korea, aside from the issues with the Japanese constitution, there is also the memories for the Koreans of the last time the Japanese were on the peninsula so I really doubt any troops from that source....any thoughts?

IMO, the Japanese could easily do that, and perhaps the Koreans have forgiven them enough to let it go, but are the ROKs really that hard-pressed? From what little I've read, the South Koreans can handle the North Koreans in a straight-up fight. The two US corps may even be overkill?

[dragoon500ly]

IMO, the Japanese could easily do that, and perhaps the Koreans have forgiven them enough to let it go, but are the ROKs really that hard-pressed? From what little I've read, the South Koreans can handle the North Koreans in a straight-up fight. The two US corps may even be overkill?

The problem is the Japanese Constitution, they are forbidden to dispatch military units outside of Japan. The unit that went to Iraq was a medical/engineer/security task force....and its deployment almost caused the fall of the government at that time, only its humanitarian mission saved it.

The deployment of a Japanese Destroyer to take part in the anti-piracy patrols also caused a lot of debate. The ROE it has to operate under is supposed to be the toughest one of any naval unit deployed, or so I'm told by a squid just returning from his reserve deployment there.

As for the ROK armed forces...tough little bastards by all accounts, discipline is high, training is strict and as realistic as possible...and the South Koreans outnumber the North Koreas by almost 2.5 to one, especially once all the reserves get called up. The sole purpose of the 2nd Infantry Division was as a symbol of UN/US commitment to maintain South Korea...at least in the timeframe of the game.

While I acknowledge that the North Korean goverment certainly marches to the beat of its own, insane drummer...would they try an attack on the ROK? Their biggest supporter is China with only limited Soviet support. If anything, I would think that the PRK would try to maintain a more neutral stance, at least until they could see a clear winner in the Sino-Soviet match.

And that means why would so many divisions be committed to Korea when they are so badly needed elsewhere? Food for thought...

[Adm.Lee]

The problem is the Japanese Constitution, they are forbidden to dispatch military units outside of Japan.

Sorry, I wasn't thinking clearly-- by "easily" I meant that they didn't have any pressing use for those forces on their own islands. I can't remember reading of any invasion there. {Probably lots of NK/Soviet commando hits, though.}

And that means why would so many divisions be committed to Korea when they are so badly needed elsewhere? Food for thought...

Indeed. If anything, the ROKs could be sending divisions to the Chinese.

[Abbott Shaull]

Or simply swap 3rd and 4th Marine Divisions. Intresting idea. As for an ACR, there was talk in some of the old Armor Journals about adding additional ACRs to the Army in the late 80's; the numbers they were talking was 6th, 10th and 14th. No idea if these were the planned numbers, but all three have been former ACRs through the 50s-60s...so, reasonable assumption would go for those three.

Yeah I know I have heard of the 10th and 14th ACRs in the past.

Any ideas what the the Army plans were for their 6th and 21st Air Combat Cavalry Brigade. Did they have ground dismounts? The reason I ask is that US Vehicle guide shows the 6th ACCB with an Artillery Battalion. I know the 6th ACCB was more of the active unit of the two Brigade while the other was filled from other units. Both were based out of Fort Hood, until the 6th ACCB was moved to Korea as part of the 8th US Army.

Then with this Brigade how did they compare to the Aviation Brigades such as the 11th and 12th Aviation Brigade that were based with V and VII Corps in Germany and the 66th Aviation Brigade which I recall was largely a NG/Reserve formation for I Corps. I am assuming the the 6th ACCB had similar role being assigned to the III Corps. Ironically I can't recall the XVIII Airborne Corps aviation brigade...

[HorseSoldier]

14th ACR was, I believe, the last active duty ACR on the books besides the ones everyone is familiar with (when 11th ACR's colors came out of Vietnam, 14th ACR in Europe was reflagged as 11th).

Personally, I'd scrap VI Corps entirely and put all the troops in theater under II Corps and II MAF. Army units can serve under USMC higher headquarters and vice versa without drama, has been happening regularly since way before the current modularity vogue.

I can't see 3rd MarDiv going to Korea -- the war is won or lost based on possession of Middle Eastern oil. If the North Korean screaming hordes overrun South Korea and do a lemming job right on into the ocean it really means very little in the big picture, but Soviet airborne forces dropping on Riyadh means folks in Iowa either start learning the words to Internationale or the war goes very nuclear very quick to stave off inevitable defeat.

In addition, there's unlikely to be any rush to saturate Korea with foreign forces in terms of the circumstances anyway. On full mobilization the ROKA fields something like 40 divisions in the Twilight timeline, with all the bells and whistles of Corps/Army assets and SOF units. As I've stated previously, 2nd Korean War won't be a replay of the 1st War, and the North Koreans won't be rolling hellbent for leather for Pusan with the only hope being US or UN forces. With the Russians churning through China they're not going to be able to spare large concentrations to help the North Koreans until China completely collapses (and even then their hands will be tied to an extent holding anything they try to keep).

A reinforcing role for US/UN forces would likely only come into play if the plan was to go over onto the offensive against the DPRK, with at least some intent to change the Chinese/Russian equation and pull some Russian troops off the Chinese. This only matters at all after the Middle East is secured and if Europe is relatively stable.

It is possible that Canada might furnish a battalion/brigade group, but we run into the same thing as far as force structure goes.

I think that was mentioned in the Challenge article about Canada, with a brigade group being readied for service in Korea getting diverted to Alaska. I don't see Canada going in for a two front war with the dual burden of battle casualty replacements for Europe and bringing their reserves into a workable state. And, in a universe where the Soviets have the capability to actually mount an invasion of Alaska, a Canadian brigade group being opconned to USARAK seems rather more likely than lobbing them across the Pacific to Korea.

[Legbreaker]

Currently Australia has only two Divisions, with the 2nd made up of about 99% reservists and the 1st about 30% (give or take). Neither is intended to be deployed as a whole.
9 BDE could have been sent to Korea even though likely needed at home to defend against Indonesian landing efforts in an attempt to bring the US on board at least diplomatically (yes, I am aware of the ANZUS treaty obligations) - the US teetering on the bring of abandoning the treaty due to their entanglement on multiple pre-existing fronts (Europe, Korea, Middle East). 9 BDE may have freed up US assets more suited to the tropics than the Australian brigade (perhaps a few warships, a squadron of fighters, etc).

It's a stretch I know, but I like the idea of Australians involved in both rounds of the Korean War. The Koreans make fairly good substitute Russians too for those back home interested in the idea of payback for nuking the world.

I don't know much about the New Zealand military, however my thoughts are they are more likely to be involved against Indonesia than Korea (ANZUS treaty obligations). Their FV101 Scorpions would prove a match against the fairly light armour of the Indonesians but chewed up and spat out by North Korean T-55s.

[atiff]

I'm not an expert on the NZ military either, although I am a Kiwi so I know where to look for info. From recent historical evidence, a large deployment out of NZ is unlikely. We simply don't have the capabilities to support a large operation out-of-country; we generally piggy-back off of others.

The way I see it, the first Asian front to kick off (say, Korea) would get some NZers, especially if Aus sent troops. First in would be the SAS, and probably a medical detachment, and some Hercs doing support work. If there was a larger need, regular troops would come a bit later (would likely need training and reserve call-up).

Then if Indonesia went off, much of that might get called home, or to Australia, to support from there. The Navy would lend some support, likely a frigate joining the Aussies. And we still had a combat airforce then, so No. 2 Squadron (upgraded Skyhawks) would probably be helping too (No. 2 was equipped with ex-Royal Aus. Navy A4s, and based in NSW, Aus. in the 90's).

All up, I would say a squadron of SAS, a battalion of regulars (after training), some support troops, a few Hercs, a frigate and No. 2 Squadron would all that would end up outside of NZ.

Oh, and we kinda got booted out of ANZUS over that whole "no nukes" thing :) Wonder if Marsden Point oil refinery received some attention nevertheless.....

Andrew

[dragoon500ly]

Yeah I know I have heard of the 10th and 14th ACRs in the past.

Any ideas what the the Army plans were for their 6th and 21st Air Combat Cavalry Brigade. Did they have ground dismounts? The reason I ask is that US Vehicle guide shows the 6th ACCB with an Artillery Battalion. I know the 6th ACCB was more of the active unit of the two Brigade while the other was filled from other units. Both were based out of Fort Hood, until the 6th ACCB was moved to Korea as part of the 8th US Army.

Then with this Brigade how did they compare to the Aviation Brigades such as the 11th and 12th Aviation Brigade that were based with V and VII Corps in Germany and the 66th Aviation Brigade which I recall was largely a NG/Reserve formation for I Corps. I am assuming the the 6th ACCB had similar role being assigned to the III Corps. Ironically I can't recall the XVIII Airborne Corps aviation brigade...

GDW dropped the ball on the artillery battalion attached to 6ACCB, the only place I could anywhere that even mentions doing this was an article in the Field Artillery Journal that talked about assigning a MLRS battalion to them for Deep Strike Missions. This is the only place this has ever been mentioned.

The make up of 6ACCB during the Twilight period was four "cavalry" squadrons (none of which had 6th Cavalry) that were renamed attack helicopter battalions. Unlike the 11th/12th Aviation Brigades which have General Support (OH-58C), a Combat Support (UH-60), a attack helicopter (AH-64) and a medium helicopter (CH-47) battalions.

III Corps for the REFORGER role was always intended as the counter attack force, thats why it had two armored divisions (1st Cavalry and 2nd) as well as the 6ACCB.

Evil Grin...the name of the XVIII Airborne Corps Aviation Brigade, is the 18th Aviation Brigade.....setup was the same as 11th/12th, but lacked the CH-47 battalion.

[dragoon500ly]

I'm not an expert on the NZ military either, although I am a Kiwi so I know where to look for info. From recent historical evidence, a large deployment out of NZ is unlikely. We simply don't have the capabilities to support a large operation out-of-country; we generally piggy-back off of others.

The way I see it, the first Asian front to kick off (say, Korea) would get some NZers, especially if Aus sent troops. First in would be the SAS, and probably a medical detachment, and some Hercs doing support work. If there was a larger need, regular troops would come a bit later (would likely need training and reserve call-up).

Then if Indonesia went off, much of that might get called home, or to Australia, to support from there. The Navy would lend some support, likely a frigate joining the Aussies. And we still had a combat airforce then, so No. 2 Squadron (upgraded Skyhawks) would probably be helping too (No. 2 was equipped with ex-Royal Aus. Navy A4s, and based in NSW, Aus. in the 90's).

All up, I would say a squadron of SAS, a battalion of regulars (after training), some support troops, a few Hercs, a frigate and No. 2 Squadron would all that would end up outside of NZ.

Oh, and we kinda got booted out of ANZUS over that whole "no nukes" thing :) Wonder if Marsden Point oil refinery received some attention nevertheless.....

Andrew

I remember reading in a Infantry Journal that New Zealand's commitment to Korea was a infantry company and a artillery battery, to be attached to a Australian deployment, this was back in 76/77...

[Abbott Shaull]

GDW dropped the ball on the artillery battalion attached to 6ACCB, the only place I could anywhere that even mentions doing this was an article in the Field Artillery Journal that talked about assigning a MLRS battalion to them for Deep Strike Missions. This is the only place this has ever been mentioned.

The make up of 6ACCB during the Twilight period was four "cavalry" squadrons (none of which had 6th Cavalry) that were renamed attack helicopter battalions. Unlike the 11th/12th Aviation Brigades which have General Support (OH-58C), a Combat Support (UH-60), a attack helicopter (AH-64) and a medium helicopter (CH-47) battalions.

III Corps for the REFORGER role was always intended as the counter attack force, thats why it had two armored divisions (1st Cavalry and 2nd) as well as the 6ACCB.

Evil Grin...the name of the XVIII Airborne Corps Aviation Brigade, is the 18th Aviation Brigade.....setup was the same as 11th/12th, but lacked the CH-47 battalion.

Silly 18th Airborne Corps...Funny how lot of their support were called 18th..... You would think since I posted at Fort Bragg I would remember this, oh wait a minute I was off Division land. It is strange how Corps, Division, and Special Forces were separated by common uniform...lol

Yeah about III Corps it funny that in the States it had 4 Armor Division (2 posing as Mechanized Divisions, with only 2 Divisions having full compliment of units on active duty with these having one Brigade each Forward Deployed) with one Mechanized Division. Yeah I know two of these Division were due to go to the V and VII Corps once they got over there and their equipment. The thing is when the III Corps was fully over there the US Army Europe would have 3 Corps with each with 2 Armor Divisions, 1 Mechanized Division, 1 Armor Cavalry Regiment, and 1 Aviation Brigade of some type.

Another thing I find ironic is that the 3rd Armor and 1st Cavalry were set up with 3 Armor Brigades instead of 2 Armor and 1 Mechanized Brigades.

Like I said, the 194th and 197th as well as the two Brigades from the 24th Mechanized Division would be sent in place of the Round Out Brigades and these Brigades would be used to make other units.

Much like part of the plan with Light Infantry Division was to ship out new Infantry Brigades thrown together at Benning from the Infantry School paired up with other Artillery and Support units to help bring these Divisions up to manpower requirements.

*Shrug*

[dragoon500ly]

Considering that the 1st Cavalry and 2nd Armored were organized per the pure Division 86 configuration, that is 6 armd and 4 mech battalions. The intent was to have two tank heavy brigades (2 and 1) and one balanced brigade (2 and 2).

Both divisions, along with the 1st and 4th Mechanized Divisions badly needed the roundout brigades, but even the most conservative estimate had them not ready for 30-60 days; so the feeding in of the 194th Armd, 197th Mech into the two armored divisions made plenty of sense.

The "German" divisions; 1st and 3rd Armored Divisions, 3rd and 8th (and the old 4th) Mechanized Infantry Divisions used a modified TO&E. For the armored divisions it was six armored and 5 mech battalions and for the mech divisions it was the exact opposite.

[Abbott Shaull]

Considering that the 1st Cavalry and 2nd Armored were organized per the pure Division 86 configuration, that is 6 armd and 4 mech battalions. The intent was to have two tank heavy brigades (2 and 1) and one balanced brigade (2 and 2).

Both divisions, along with the 1st and 4th Mechanized Divisions badly needed the roundout brigades, but even the most conservative estimate had them not ready for 30-60 days; so the feeding in of the 194th Armd, 197th Mech into the two armored divisions made plenty of sense.

The "German" divisions; 1st and 3rd Armored Divisions, 3rd and 8th (and the old 4th) Mechanized Infantry Divisions used a modified TO&E. For the armored divisions it was six armored and 5 mech battalions and for the mech divisions it was the exact opposite.

Yeah, it was one of those things seeing what GDW had publish, what was actually in the Army OOB at the time, even until after 1991 makes one wonder if something had happen where the US wasn't fighting on two fronts, but several more, where they would come up with the manpower to do so...

[Legbreaker]

All up, I would say a squadron of SAS, a battalion of regulars (after training), some support troops, a few Hercs, a frigate and No. 2 Squadron would all that would end up outside of NZ.

Hmm, I'm thinking the NZ Battalion would replace one of the two Australian infantry battalions in the Korea brigade with the personel of the 2nd Australian battalion rolled over into the first to make up numbers....

[Legbreaker]

...where they would come up with the manpower to do so...

Conscription. Lots and lots of conscription.
Post nuke the military may even be seen by many as the one sure way of putting food in your belly. You might find many, many volunteers post nuke both for this and paying back the "Reds" for nuking their friends and families.

[dragoon500ly]

Conscription. Lots and lots of conscription.
Post nuke the military may even be seen by many as the one sure way of putting food in your belly. You might find many, many volunteers post nuke both for this and paying back the "Reds" for nuking their friends and families.


Sadly, I am reminded of a man-in-street interview in New York City on 9/11...the reporter asked his subject what his feelings were concerning the fall of the twin towers and the reports that terrorists were responsible. The response chilled me...."The United States deserves this for our criminal support of Israel and our oppression of the Arab peoples."

Just how many people will say that the Soviets were justified in using nukes on the US.......

[Legbreaker]

There will definitely be some who feel that way, but unlike 911, the US will have a year or more in which to flood the media with propaganda. I rather doubt many would be all that sympathetic towards the enemy powers.

[dragoon500ly]

There will definitely be some who feel that way, but unlike 911, the US will have a year or more in which to flood the media with propaganda. I rather doubt many would be all that sympathetic towards the enemy powers.

You forget that it is the enemy who resorts to propaganda, the Allies have "sources of information" to remember a famous line from WWII. ;)

Considering the "TraLaLaLa Land" that some of my fellow citizens dwell in, I do find it reasonable to believe that a percentage of the population will protest the war, actively support the Soviet position and may actually make an effort to sabotage the war effort. It happened in World War Two, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, the various peacekeeping missions in the former Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and there rumblings on the internet about Libya. Now why on earth would those people change their stripes?

And yes I am including those who live in the People's Republic of California! Don't forget that a certain city located near a certain bay has taken out city ordnances protesting the US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention banning pet stores as well as the sale of certain fast food items in their foggy city....a rather infamous university there is noted as a hot bed of extremism, there is a running joke that the frequent earthquakes that rattle the area may also be causing severe brain trauma!

Besides, their outlook is another great tool for a GM. Just picture the player's party running a recon mission against the invading Mexican Army stumbling over a line of Berkley students protesting the US policy against illegals!

[HorseSoldier]

Given how the Twilight War involves some sort of murky circumstances I could see how a percentage of folks in western democracies would be critical of the NATO entry into the war and feel that the Warsaw Pact was the victim of aggression. How prevalent? Good question. Post nukes it might not be an opinion to express too loudly in mixed company, but could also be a rallying point for antigovernment types trying to step into the power vacuum.

[Legbreaker]

....a rather infamous university there is noted as a hot bed of extremism...

Obviously a good justification for a brutal dictatorship and incendiary weapons. :p

[dragoon500ly]

So basically you would have MilGov, CivGov, New America, the various independent warlords and bandits and then you would have the various anti-Nuke, anti-military, anti-US involvement overseas, anti-early morning cartoons, anti-McDonalds and anti-ad nasuem.

Like I said, lots of things for a GM to through at the players.

[Legbreaker]

...you would have the various anti-Nuke, anti-military, anti-US involvement overseas, anti-early morning cartoons, anti-McDonalds and anti-ad nasuem.

Sounds like life as normal in the US. ;)

[dragoon500ly]

Obviously a good justification for a brutal dictatorship and incendiary weapons. :p

There was always a running joke along the lines of instead of taking the right turn into Fort Irwin and the National Training Center...just hang a left and introduce UC-Berkerly to the joys of a full scale armor assault!!!

[dragoon500ly]

Sounds like life as normal in the US. ;)

:p

We do kind of resemble that. Now all we need is a couple of talking heads to tell everyone how it should be done and we are set!

[Legbreaker]

Shouldn't that be heads that disagree how it's to be done? :)

[Targan]

Hmm, I'm thinking the NZ Battalion would replace one of the two Australian infantry battalions in the Korea brigade with the personel of the 2nd Australian battalion rolled over into the first to make up numbers....

Sounds reasonable. Where Australia goes New Zealand also tends to go, with a smaller troop commitment commensurate with its smaller military.

[Legbreaker]

12/40 RTR might be the better unit to stay on with 10/27 RSAR being split up.
Why? Basically because 12/40 has more people on the books than 10/27.

[Abbott Shaull]

Considering that the 1st Cavalry and 2nd Armored were organized per the pure Division 86 configuration, that is 6 armd and 4 mech battalions. The intent was to have two tank heavy brigades (2 and 1) and one balanced brigade (2 and 2).

Both divisions, along with the 1st and 4th Mechanized Divisions badly needed the roundout brigades, but even the most conservative estimate had them not ready for 30-60 days; so the feeding in of the 194th Armd, 197th Mech into the two armored divisions made plenty of sense.

The "German" divisions; 1st and 3rd Armored Divisions, 3rd and 8th (and the old 4th) Mechanized Infantry Divisions used a modified TO&E. For the armored divisions it was six armored and 5 mech battalions and for the mech divisions it was the exact opposite.
I thought at the time the 1st Mechanized was much like the 2nd Armored with 1 Brigade Forward Deployed with the remainder of the Division at Fort Riley, KS.

Yeah we GDW had all active heavy units listed 6-5 scale if I recall correctly...*Shrug* Then again it didn't help that the 1st and 4th Mechanized were more or less Armored Divisions.

[Abbott Shaull]

I have always been interested in the speculated deployments of places like Hungary, Austria, Czech, and other Pact Nations in more detail. I never got around to purchase the Eastern Europe Sourcebook. Gee wonder why they never made on for Korea... *shrug* or for that matter sundry places like Scandinavia/Iceland/Greenland, Canada/Alaska, South Pacific, anything Africa, or anything south of the US Border...lol

Even Balkan region with Italy, Greece, Turkey, Romanian, and such would of been nice to have. Or one dealing with Spain and Portugal with maybe France would of been nice. Even the Baltic States, Ukraine, and Georgia with some of her more interesting neighbors would have been nice. India Sub continent and China would of been treasures too. I know it seems like lot of material, but for how fast they were cranking this stuff out, and the thing they alluded too, would have made the game more complete in my opinion...

[dragoon500ly]

I thought at the time the 1st Mechanized was much like the 2nd Armored with 1 Brigade Forward Deployed with the remainder of the Division at Fort Riley, KS.

Yeah we GDW had all active heavy units listed 6-5 scale if I recall correctly...*Shrug* Then again it didn't help that the 1st and 4th Mechanized were more or less Armored Divisions.

1st MID had their 3rd Brigade forward deployed to VII Corps, it was a 2-n-1 mix. But the war role of 1st MID had it going to III Corps with its role in NORTHAG...I always heard that 3rd Brigade would be chopped to 3rd MID, so that would leave a two brigade division up north...hence the talk of cross-attaching 194th/197th or a yet to be named NG Brigade.

[dragoon500ly]

I have always been interested in the speculated deployments of places like Hungary, Austria, Czech, and other Pact Nations in more detail. I never got around to purchase the Eastern Europe Sourcebook. Gee wonder why they never made on for Korea... *shrug* or for that matter sundry places like Scandinavia/Iceland/Greenland, Canada/Alaska, South Pacific, anything Africa, or anything south of the US Border...lol

Even Balkan region with Italy, Greece, Turkey, Romanian, and such would of been nice to have. Or one dealing with Spain and Portugal with maybe France would of been nice. Even the Baltic States, Ukraine, and Georgia with some of her more interesting neighbors would have been nice. India Sub continent and China would of been treasures too. I know it seems like lot of material, but for how fast they were cranking this stuff out, and the thing they alluded too, would have made the game more complete in my opinion...

There was some talk about a Korea Sourcebook, but then came the PG1 Sourcebook and then the disaster with the follow-up sourcebook leaving the company with a major cash-flow problem (their contract with WalMart required them to buy back any unsold sourcebooks; can we say goat-screwed?), and just as they were recovering, along came Magic the Gathering and the death of the old wargaming side of the hobby.

Don't get me wrong MoG is a fun, pretty game for the munckins and when the hobby stores had the choice of buying collectible card games and getting the rapid return or buying traditional games and watching them gather dust on the shelf, can't blame them for going for profit.

But it is still such a shame that so many great companies fell to the wayside.

[HorseSoldier]

Well, that and reality caught up with the timeline, which left the game kind of troubled -- and ushered in a serious decline in quality of product for the regional sourcebooks compared to the v1.0 stuff.

I have always been interested in the speculated deployments of places like Hungary, Austria, Czech, and other Pact Nations in more detail. I never got around to purchase the Eastern Europe Sourcebook. Gee wonder why they never made on for Korea... *shrug* or for that matter sundry places like Scandinavia/Iceland/Greenland, Canada/Alaska, South Pacific, anything Africa, or anything south of the US Border...lol

Even Balkan region with Italy, Greece, Turkey, Romanian, and such would of been nice to have. Or one dealing with Spain and Portugal with maybe France would of been nice. Even the Baltic States, Ukraine, and Georgia with some of her more interesting neighbors would have been nice. India Sub continent and China would of been treasures too. I know it seems like lot of material, but for how fast they were cranking this stuff out, and the thing they alluded too, would have made the game more complete in my opinion...

I think all of the above would have been pretty good stuff, if done right. I suspect that a big part of the problem was that the NATO/WP WW3 scenario had been so endlessly researched, talked about, documented, etc., that in the pre internet era you could still walk into a decent sized public library and do all the research you needed to generate something like USAVG or its Soviet equivalent.

Finding hard and precise order of battle info for Africa, South America, etc., was probably significantly more difficult in those days (still kind of is today, even with local military history enthusiasts from a lot of those nations devotedly updating and expanding wikipedia entries, etc.).

Still, would have been cool to see what GDW would have produced had they had access to 2011 (or even 2000) era internet resources for research. It seemed like, from the level of detail they put into African political geography in the 2300 game, that at least some folks with the company had a major interest in events in that part of the world. I suspect a T2K Africa sourcebook would have been a pretty well done project.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well, that and reality caught up with the timeline, which left the game kind of troubled -- and ushered in a serious decline in quality of product for the regional sourcebooks compared to the v1.0 stuff.



I think all of the above would have been pretty good stuff, if done right. I suspect that a big part of the problem was that the NATO/WP WW3 scenario had been so endlessly researched, talked about, documented, etc., that in the pre internet era you could still walk into a decent sized public library and do all the research you needed to generate something like USAVG or its Soviet equivalent.

Finding hard and precise order of battle info for Africa, South America, etc., was probably significantly more difficult in those days (still kind of is today, even with local military history enthusiasts from a lot of those nations devotedly updating and expanding wikipedia entries, etc.).

Still, would have been cool to see what GDW would have produced had they had access to 2011 (or even 2000) era internet resources for research. It seemed like, from the level of detail they put into African political geography in the 2300 game, that at least some folks with the company had a major interest in events in that part of the world. I suspect a T2K Africa sourcebook would have been a pretty well done project.

Well with lot of African nations they usual had a couple Brigades worth of troop if lucky, while others had mere Battalion worth of troops. Again this was always in flux with various rebellions too.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah the XVIII Airborne Corps was always complex on where they would head too. On one hand they were considered a Reserve, on another hand they had the two Divisional size units that could be rapidly deployed to low intensity conflict. On the other hand every other combat unit that was suppose to make up the Corps besides these two could end up in Europe just as easily as Central Command AO. Even with that said, the Corps could end up almost anywhere in the world.

10th Mountain, 6th Light, 9th Motorized, and 24th Mechanized could of ended up almost anywhere during the conflict. Do I see 6th Light go to Norway. Uhm no way, and I don't see them leaving for Korea. Maybe moving a one of their two Brigades to Korea yes, but otherwise the Division HQ, 1 combat Brigade, Aviation Brigade, and Support stay put in Alaska and the they take over command of many of the Alaska Nation Guard units. 10th Mountain I see going to Norway. 9th and 24th well I see them being used to supply manpower to US Europe first. Not sure where in Europe but probably there.

The thing is after the 1st Cavalry, 2nd Armor, 1st Mechanized, 4th Mechanized, 5th Mechanized, 9th Motorized, and 24th Mechanized Divisions as well the 194th Armor Brigade and 197th Mechanized Brigade are shipped out as well as the 3rd Armor Cavalry Regiment. I can see new units being raised to with the equipment that they left. With that said, of course all the Division would need another Brigade, but if you take 194th and 197th replacement and assign them one of the 7 new divisions. Then all you need in another 5 round-out Brigades and assign them to the other 5 Divisions to bring them up to strength. This could give you the 4th Armor Division, 6th Armor Division, 3 other newly name Armor/Mechanized Divisions as well the 9th and 24th Division being reconstituted. Of these I see a few of these going to Europe while the bulk head to Central Command to give the 3rd Army some teeth, if not to the 8th Army.

Also I can see units like the 11th, 13th, and 17th Airborne/Air Assault/Airmobile Divisions being organized various places. 11th possible in Korea with 1 Airborne and 1 Air Assault Brigade to start off with. The 13th at Campbell and 17th at Bragg trying to raise new units, but with XVIII Corps loses everywhere they none of these Division get much beyond 2 specialized Brigades, Aviation, and Support with maybe Mechanized or Heavy Motorized Brigade added.

Again back to the 82nd, 101st and any other Light Division with Central Command in the Middle East or Europe. I can see these Divisions giving up one combat Brigade to Heavy Division for a Heavy Brigade to give them some teeth.

Just some thought

[HorseSoldier]

I don't see the war lasting long enough for significant new formations to be raised -- not while the US is trying to sustain high intensity operations on 3+ fronts.

All the stuff left by units that punched out for POMCUS sites wasn't bonus waiting for new guys to fall in on it, it would have been right into the pipeline for the equipment side of battle casualty replacements. And equipment losses on the European front by itself would be staggering compared to what we've seen in the '91 and '02 iterations redecorating the Cradle of Civilization. Likewise guys rolling through the initial training pipeline -- most would be individual replacements bound for units already in theater, not set aside for new units. The handful of new or rebuilt from the ground up units depicted in T2K are probably a reasonable estimation of what would be feasible while simultaneously keeping units in theater(s) combat effective.

The whole WW3 situation isn't a replay of World War Two -- the logistics of wartime production of everything from M1 tanks to aircraft to modern munitions is significantly more complicated and much more bottlenecked. You can't farm out Bradley or M1 production to the Saturn car plant in Tennessee and such as was routinely done in WW2 stuff -- and even if you could, the war goes nuclear in less than 12 months, which isn't enough time for much of that to happen at all even for stuff that has an easier cross over.

[Legbreaker]

What we're presented with in the books is, granted, chaotic, but when looked at closely, it makes sense. Units were sent where they were desperately needed, when they were needed and as the transportation was available. Yes the "correct" units may not have gone where they could have been the most effective, but since when has a plan ever survived five minutes past implementation?

It's my opinion that the OOB's as published, while far from perfect, are a damn fine example of the chaos a multi-front war will create. We can talk all we want about how to "fix" it, but when it all boils down, "fixing" really only radically changes the balance of power in the various regions and simply doesn't reflect what would truly happen if WWIII happened to break out.

[Abbott Shaull]

I don't see the war lasting long enough for significant new formations to be raised -- not while the US is trying to sustain high intensity operations on 3+ fronts.

All the stuff left by units that punched out for POMCUS sites wasn't bonus waiting for new guys to fall in on it, it would have been right into the pipeline for the equipment side of battle casualty replacements. And equipment losses on the European front by itself would be staggering compared to what we've seen in the '91 and '02 iterations redecorating the Cradle of Civilization. Likewise guys rolling through the initial training pipeline -- most would be individual replacements bound for units already in theater, not set aside for new units. The handful of new or rebuilt from the ground up units depicted in T2K are probably a reasonable estimation of what would be feasible while simultaneously keeping units in theater(s) combat effective.

The whole WW3 situation isn't a replay of World War Two -- the logistics of wartime production of everything from M1 tanks to aircraft to modern munitions is significantly more complicated and much more bottlenecked. You can't farm out Bradley or M1 production to the Saturn car plant in Tennessee and such as was routinely done in WW2 stuff -- and even if you could, the war goes nuclear in less than 12 months, which isn't enough time for much of that to happen at all even for stuff that has an easier cross over.

True enough granted if there was no time between the time when the fighting starts and when US, UK, and other NATO members enter the fighting. Then yeah lot of the stuff would be either used to re-equip NG and Reserves as they were called up. With the build up that GDW gives us, even the US Military would have enough time to cycle a couple rotation through Basic Training and in some MOS people underway in the AIT. Of course these units would pay hell once they enter combat, but rotate them up front to fill holes in some of the Divisions already in combat while this Brigade or that were withdrawn to get rest and refit...


Such MOS like Medics, Ranger Training, and Q Course (along with other Special Operation units course) wouldn't have enough time to train to expand. Yet once the shooting war starts Rangers school will be shorten to get more qualified Rangers for the Regiment and for line units. Same with Special Forces in many cases the Teams will go through the initial training and more intensive shorten training to get them ready.

Of course, after TDM there will be plenty of Ranger trained and Special Operation trained units that will be shifted around for disaster relief duty when it becomes clears that sending reinforcement is no longer a real option. With many of the Special Operation teams you can create various recovery teams around these type of units.

Just some thought...