Don't have my "Into the Howling Wilderness" yet...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Did Fort Knox get hit? I'm guessing that's a yes.

The reason I ask is : would a military desperate enough for armor pull down and try to salvage/refurbish some of the less onerous stuff from the museum there? Regardless of sending it to Europe or using it at home (in AK to hold off the Reds there, or against Division Cuba or the Mexicans).

Curious.

Oh, also, I seem to recall that the AMARC did not get pasted: it's full of a/c and parts, and while avgas is of course a huge issue, even a handful of refurbed or salvaged A1s or Huns flying - albeit rarely - could be a HUGE asset for one of the above situations for either CivGov or MilGov.

[Legbreaker]

I was looking at that a month or so ago and I think it's not on the list of targets....
Milgov did pull out of the area though, and it's well out of Civgovs region so.....

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I was looking at that a month or so ago and I think it's not on the list of targets....
Milgov did pull out of the area though, and it's well out of Civgovs region so.....

AMARC or Ft. Knox?

[Legbreaker]

Fort Knox. I'm going from memory though, but I'll check in a couple of hours.

[HorseSoldier]

I'm pretty certain Knox was not nuked, it doesn't have anything there that would warrant a nuke in T2K's exchange.

Nothing at the Patton museum would be of real value, outside an exemplar or two of stuff still in the inventory that 194th probably took with them when they left the area. All the vintage and foreign stuff would be maintenance deadlined within 100 miles or a couple months. It's value would be some impressive pill boxes and that's about it.

AMARC may be in Mexican hands. In any case post TDM I don't think the distribution network to get parts and qualified maintainers married up with lower cost airframes is available, which is a bigger show stopper (or a deal breaker) before the fuel crunch enters the equation.

[Legbreaker]

Confirmed. Ft Knox is not on the list and there's no mention of it being attacked in Howling Wilderness.
In fact there doesn't appear to be any strikes anywhere near Ft Knox.

Quote:
"The western part of Kentucky is controlled by Milgov, but as in Tennessee, the military government has not been able to extend it's control eastward."

From that I think it's fairly clear Ft Knox has been abandoned.

[Tegyrius]

"The western part of Kentucky is controlled by Milgov, but as in Tennessee, the military government has not been able to extend it's control eastward."

From that I think it's fairly clear Ft Knox has been abandoned.

As a Kentucky native, I have to say that quote isn't conclusive. Knox is on the eastern fringe of what I generally consider "western Kentucky."

- C.

[Canadian Army]

Confirmed. Ft Knox is not on the list and there's no mention of it being attacked in Howling Wilderness.
In fact there doesn't appear to be any strikes anywhere near Ft Knox.

Quote:
"The western part of Kentucky is controlled by Milgov, but as in Tennessee, the military government has not been able to extend it's control eastward."

From that I think it's fairly clear Ft Knox has been abandoned.

I fined is highly unlikely, the Milgov would have not secure the United States Bullion Depository (located adjacent to Fort Knox); precious metals, like gold are likely to the only thing close to currency (most likely the Milgov would be using the gold standard).

[Legbreaker]

True, there is the depository to think about....
However, does Milgov have the strength to post more than a token presence there? Would they be confident in it's inbuilt security to risk leaving it unguarded for a year or two while they used their thinly spread troops elsewhere?
What, besides the depository, is in the area that would warrant a presence?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'm pretty certain Knox was not nuked, it doesn't have anything there that would warrant a nuke in T2K's exchange.

Nothing at the Patton museum would be of real value, outside an exemplar or two of stuff still in the inventory that 194th probably took with them when they left the area. All the vintage and foreign stuff would be maintenance deadlined within 100 miles or a couple months. It's value would be some impressive pill boxes and that's about it.


Ah, but they do have a pretty well-equipped machine shop for restoration and repair of the working models - that'd have some value to one side or the other (an AFV repair shop, that is).


AMARC may be in Mexican hands. In any case post TDM I don't think the distribution network to get parts and qualified maintainers married up with lower cost airframes is available, which is a bigger show stopper (or a deal breaker) before the fuel crunch enters the equation.

Oh I'm not suggesting it'd be a day at the aircraft mall or anything, just that it'd be a long-term asset worth grabbing, (or grabbing back as the case may be).

...which also leaves me wondering what shape Mexican oil production is in.

[HorseSoldier]

True, there is the depository to think about....
However, does Milgov have the strength to post more than a token presence there? Would they be confident in it's inbuilt security to risk leaving it unguarded for a year or two while they used their thinly spread troops elsewhere?
What, besides the depository, is in the area that would warrant a presence?

I'd anticipate a very well defended convoy from Fort Knox headed to the MilGov Colorado cantonment at some point along the way unless the gold had already been moved or otherwise accounted for.

Probably some interesting adventure ideas in there without replaying Armies of the Night in the midwest.

Ah, but they do have a pretty well-equipped machine shop for restoration and repair of the working models - that'd have some value to one side or the other (an AFV repair shop, that is).

It obviously has some value, but I'd anticipate anything the was portable was taken by 194th when they moved out, leaving only the stuff that was simply immobile. In any case, I don't think they have the ability to support even, say, a company team sized element of obsolete AFVs on active operations, even if they do have the ability to get a Panther or Tiger to crank up enough for a parade.

[Legbreaker]

I think the gold was discussed a month or two ago and it was estimated "4000+ tonnes of gold would require approximately 80 trucks assuming a 50+ tonne capacity."

A lot of fuel and protection required there, along with a lot of secure storage space at the other end. Of course getting it out requires getting through all the built in security which apparently requires the codes from eight different people (going from memory here). Could cut/blast the way in, but if you can't get all the gold in one go, then the rest will be open to scavengers/thieves/the security detail left behind.

In my mind it's probably safer left exactly where it is in exactly the same condition - ie locked up tight!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'd anticipate a very well defended convoy from Fort Knox headed to the MilGov Colorado cantonment at some point along the way unless the gold had already been moved or otherwise accounted for.

Probably some interesting adventure ideas in there without replaying Armies of the Night in the midwest.



It obviously has some value, but I'd anticipate anything the was portable was taken by 194th when they moved out, leaving only the stuff that was simply immobile. In any case, I don't think they have the ability to support even, say, a company team sized element of obsolete AFVs on active operations, even if they do have the ability to get a Panther or Tiger to crank up enough for a parade.

You know what?

Hm.

I'll get back to you guys. :>

[HorseSoldier]

I think the gold was discussed a month or two ago and it was estimated "4000+ tonnes of gold would require approximately 80 trucks assuming a 50+ tonne capacity."

A lot of fuel and protection required there, along with a lot of secure storage space at the other end. Of course getting it out requires getting through all the built in security which apparently requires the codes from eight different people (going from memory here). Could cut/blast the way in, but if you can't get all the gold in one go, then the rest will be open to scavengers/thieves/the security detail left behind.

In my mind it's probably safer left exactly where it is in exactly the same condition - ie locked up tight!

Without some sort of security force to intervene, any safe or vault, even a complex like the depository at Ft. Knox, just represents a time/distance equation for defeating its security measures. Admittedly, it would be a pretty major undertaking, but with CivGov, MilGov, and New America (plus minor/regional powers) in the game, I don't know that anyone would feel comfortable leaving anything of strategic value unattended in circa 2000 America.

So I'd think that MilGov would make an effort to get the gold out if/when they decided to pull the plug on Ft Knox. Rather than trucking it, they could haul it on the Ohio River, since the 194th seems to mostly have been oriented on river lines when it moved out of the Knox area. To get it all the way to Colorado Springs could be a trick using river lines, but it might be part of the cantonments in Cairo or Memphis, once the latter is cleared.

Or depending on the time frame that the decision was made to relocate the gold, it may have been feasible to move it by rail or even fly it elsewhere (the latter unlikely, I think, but someone could have made a forward looking call before things hit rock bottom). A couple C-5s could have hauled the supply to Colorado Springs in a reasonable number of sorties, if the airframes and fuel were available at that point in time.

[Legbreaker]

Quote: "The United States Bullion Depository holds 4,603 tons (4,176 metric tons) of gold bullion."

Now lets put that into perspective shall we?
The M-1A2 Abrams which was about the best US tank available at the time has a dry weight of 62.1 tonnes.

4,176 divided by 62.1 equals 67.25 tanks.

The C-5 can carry 122,470 kilograms, or 122.47 tonnes. This is just less than two tanks.

So, basically we need 34 flights by a C-5 Galaxy to shift all the gold, and that's gold only, doesn't include any passengers, security, additional equipment, etc. To do the job right we're looking at about 40 flights.

Ok, so still doable.... Lets look at fuel. Presuming you're travelling only halfway across the country and back, that's about one load of fuel - 193,600 litres.

40 flights of say 190,000 litres and you're looking at 7.6 million litres of aviation fuel. This is approximately 8 months of Ploesti's post war production rate - the 2000 Pact counteroffensive only had one month's worth to play with.

Given that the US government did not split until mid 1998 well after the November 1997 nuclear strikes, I have great difficulty in believing that much fuel would be available.

[HorseSoldier]

As stated, I don't think the idea of flying it out is feasible unless someone made an early call and acted on it. Relocation to a more secure setting than Kentucky might have preceded the emergence of CivGov -- post TDM you've pretty shortly got New Anerica formally hanging out their shingle on Appalachia, which could have prompted movement elsewhere (possibly not CO Springs at that point -- might be funny if MilGov's new hiding spot went over to CivGov subsequently).

Though there might be an interesting campaign in the 194th cantonments with a gold reserve thrown in -- some fuel to support aviation ops, lots of disposable income, but short on manpower. End result could see PCs jumping into areas under New America or CivGov control with attaché cases full of gold to try to run agents, buy the loyalty of local warlords etc.

[Targan]

So I'd think that MilGov would make an effort to get the gold out if/when they decided to pull the plug on Ft Knox. Rather than trucking it, they could haul it on the Ohio River, since the 194th seems to mostly have been oriented on river lines when it moved out of the Knox area. To get it all the way to Colorado Springs could be a trick using river lines, but it might be part of the cantonments in Cairo or Memphis, once the latter is cleared.

Oooh, I like this. I'm imagining a cool scenario where one of the barges has sunk and the PCs are part of a recovery mission to recover the sunken gold from the river bed.

[Legbreaker]

As stated, I don't think the idea of flying it out is feasible unless someone made an early call and acted on it. Relocation to a more secure setting than Kentucky might have preceded the emergence of CivGov -- post TDM you've pretty shortly got New Anerica formally hanging out their shingle on Appalachia, which could have prompted movement elsewhere (possibly not CO Springs at that point -- might be funny if MilGov's new hiding spot went over to CivGov subsequently).
Pre nuke there's almost no need whatsoever to shift the gold. Why take it out of the most secure facility on the face of the planet? Where exactly could you take it without months, even years of preparation?
Between the nukes in November 1997 and the collapse of the pre-war government mid 1998, there's no chance of anything more than a couple of bars being moved - the resources are all tied up coping with the aftermath of being nuked.
Once the government fell apart, there's simply no resources left, not to mention the chaos just keeps getting worse and worse.

[Rainbow Six]

Pre nuke there's almost no need whatsoever to shift the gold. Why take it out of the most secure facility on the face of the planet? Where exactly could you take it without months, even years of preparation?

It is possible that the US Government did have (and indeed may still do have) such a contingency plan which includes a pre prepared place where the gold could be taken and stored. Obviously it makes sense for the existence / location of such a facility to be classified as secret. And the facility could have been prepared years in advance.

The unknown factor is what event (or events) would need to happen for these contingency plans to be put into action - in this case when is it decided that it is safter to move the gold than leave it in situ? It's possible that one of the events that might cause plans to be implemented is the first release of tactical nuclear weapons in the summer of 1997.

So I do think it's possible that the gold at Fort Knox might have been moved sometime in the late summer / early autumn of 1997 (i.e. before the TDM) as a precaution...quite apart from anything else the US Government of the time wouldn't have had the luxury of knowing that the exchange would be limited in nature and that Knox wouldn't be a target, so I think one could argue that moving it to a secret location was a sensible option in terms of risk vs reward, the worst case scenario in not moving it obviously being the possibility of losing it all if Fort Knox is attacked by a large enough weapon.

(As an aside, for what it's worth, the British Government had a plan in place to transfer gold from the Bank of England to a prepared spot in North Wales)

http://www.flintshirechronicle.co.uk/flintshire-news/featured-stories/2010/06/03/government-plans-obtained-by-rhydymwyn-valley-history-society-reveal-british-gold-would-have-been-hidden-at-former-mustard-gas-making-site-in-event-of-attack-during-cold-war-51352-26573180/

[Legbreaker]

I can't see shifting that much gold, or that much of anything really, being kept secret. There's likely to be hundreds of people involved (most just as guards) and those around Ft Knox are certainly going to be making a few wild guesses about where all those trucks are headed, so obviously loaded down.
Even with a damn fine cover story, the truth is almost certain to leak out.

How will the general population react when they hear Ft Knox has been emptied? Ft Knox, the place where the most valuable papers in the US are stored in times of trouble (aka the original constitution).

It's also very likely some people will know where it's taken to as well. That much transportation is going to raise a few eyebrows - it's not something that's likely to be forgotten in a hurry.

[Rainbow Six]

Leg, fair points.

How will the general population react when they hear Ft Knox has been emptied? Ft Knox, the place where the most valuable papers in the US are stored in times of trouble (aka the original constitution).

In general, this leads into one of the points in the T2K timeline that I find myself spending a lot of time mulling over...namely what happens in terms of public reaction, Government planning etc in the period between the first use of tac nukes in the summer and the strategic exchange in November?

I've always thought it possible - maybe even probable - that the public reaction is likely to be panic in any event, and there would be a mass exodus from major population centres during July and August as people fear the worst. Granted, as the summer goes on without a full scale exchange many people would then return to their homes. I seem to recall Howling Wilderness alludes to this and I do remember Webstral referring to what he calls "The Alert" period in some of his pieces.

So to come back to the specific point of Fort Knox, I think there's likely to be widespread panic anyway...and I still think the US Government (and other Governments) have to plan for the worst case scenario...so that means implementing whatever contingency plans they have. As you rightly state it would be a huge logistical excercise to move all of the gold out of Fort Knox, but I kepp coming back to the same point, namely the challenge of moving it has to be weighed (no pun intended :)) against the risks involved in leaving it where it is.

It's also very likely some people will know where it's take to as well. That much transportation is going to raise a few eyebrows - it's not something that's likely to be forgotten in a hurry.

Agreed, although perhaps not all of the gold goes to the same place. Either way, I don't think that's a dealbreaker when the alternative is the risk of your national gold reserves being lost completely.

[Legbreaker]

My guess, and there's no way to know for sure, is that the Depository is well protected against nuclear attack almost up to (and possibly including) a direct hit. Strengthening it's defences surely has to have occurred in the 50+ years since it was first constructed, especially in reaction to the threat of nukes. I can imagine the US government spent a LOT of time, effort and money in the 50's and 60's hardening the facility - this has got to be easier than planning to move such a huge volume of precious metal and other items in a time of national stress and peril.

Even if the exterior was irradiated, my guess is that it wouldn't matter much - it's not like the gold was ever intended to be pulled out of storage and shipped overseas as payment for anything.

[Rainbow Six]

My guess, and there's no way to know for sure, is that the Depository is well protected against nuclear attack almost up to (and possibly including) a direct hit.

Maybe they upped the protection after watching Goldfinger! :D

[HorseSoldier]

Pre-nukes I can't see it moving, but post-nukes you have a budding insurgency in the area once New America goes active. It is possible removal of the gold to a more secure part of the country would make sense while the resources were there to move it. I agree that under normal emergency conditions leaving it at Knox is the most logical course of action. Add in growing reports of an organized guerrilla movement nearby that makes Knox seem significantly less secure and the decision making might be different.

That said, I suspect that the 194th took the gold with them when they pulled out, as previously stated, but think it's possible the depository got emptied earlier.

[Legbreaker]

New America did not activate until the 1st of January 2001. I greatly doubt they would be a factor.

Basically, NA effectively did not exist before this time. Civgov are nowhere to be seen and Milgov simply doesn't have the resources nearby. Once NA activates, and they activate over a very wide area don't forget, shifting the gold becomes even less likely due to the heightened risk of any convoy's being ambushed.

The 194th moved out of the area in August 1999 and directly into combat with the 84th Infantry - they would have been completely unable to take even a portion of the gold with them. Even if they could scrounge up the necessary vehicles and crew, and assign adequate guards, what if the 194th had lost against the 84th? The gold would then fall into the hands of Civgov, something I'm certain Milgov would have been very keen to avoid.

[HorseSoldier]

If the 194th had access to any river barges on the Ohio moving the gold on the river would have been pretty simple.

[Legbreaker]

What's the situation on the Ohio? Are there locks, canals, etc which may have been damaged by nukes or suffered from lack of maintenance since? Would the uncontrolled flooding mentioned in the books have wiped out the ability for large cargos to pass?

Where could it be taken if the riverway is clear? Suggestions?

[HorseSoldier]

The Ohio has pretty extensive locks and dams, though apparently the big historical choke point was at Louisville just to the east of Ft Knox. It's more naturally navigable west towards the Mississippi, though extensively controlled in the direction as well.

If you can make it 600 km downriver, though, you're right at Cairo, IL, at the confluence of the Ohio and Mississippi, where 194th set up cantonment. And from there, you're on the Mississippi and navigable south to Memphis where 197th brigade is set up -- basically in the middle of one of MilGov's stronger held areas.

The Missouri is also accessible from the Mississippi and navigable for quite a ways out onto the Great Plains and Mountain states, but if Wikipedia is to be believed, it's likely lack of human intervention will rapidly make it unusable by large craft even with shallow drafts. And the fact that it flows through Omaha, Nebraska and the CivGov cantonment there means it is not going to be a highway for MilGov.

[Legbreaker]

Note that the 194th went north before heading back town to Cairo. I'm not convinced they'd have had the available manpower given their attack on the 84th even if enough barges could be found.

Breaking into the depository could be done given enough time, heavy machinery and explosives. Again, I'm not sure any of those three factors would have been present at the time needed. Simply opening the doors isn't going to happen given the security hardware in place and necessity of codes, etc.

[RN7]

What's the situation on the Ohio? Are there locks, canals, etc which may have been damaged by nukes or suffered from lack of maintenance since? Would the uncontrolled flooding mentioned in the books have wiped out the ability for large cargos to pass?

Where could it be taken if the riverway is clear? Suggestions?

Water transport would be the likely option for transporting bullion from Kentucky westwards, as Kentucky is bounded by the two largest rivers in North America: The Ohio and Mississippi. The nearest large inland port to Fort Knox is at Louisville, relatively close by and the 7th largest inland port in America. Huntington which is the largest inland port in America is also in Kentucky, as is the port of Cincinnati-North Kentucky.

From Louisville the likely route would be along the Ohio River through the Louisville and Portland Canal which by pass the Falls of Ohio, which are the only natural obstacle along the Ohio. From there west through Cincinnati until it reaches Cairo, IL. In Howling Wilderness Cairo is where the 194th Armoured Brigade moved to after withdrawing from Fort Knox, and it is also the confluence of the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers.

From Cairo the most likely route would be south along the Mississippi to Memphis, TN, the current HQ of the 197th Mechanised Brigade. From there the Misissippi runs south to the Gulf and New Orleans, so it is likely that the bullion would be transported westwards by road through MilGov dominated States of Arkansas (98th Infantry Division) and Oklahoma and Kansas (95th Infantry Division, School Brigade) and westwards towards Colorado Springs.

[WallShadow]

What about taking a page from Allegheny Uprising? Mammoth Cave is about 40-50 miles straight down I-65 from Ft. Knox. Gov't misinformation about checking the caves out as shelters but finding growing instability in the rock structure. You'd have lots of geeky-nerdy guys with headlamps and seismic sensors and technical trucks going back and forth all day for a month, finally resulting in the cave being "closed until further notice due to severe cave-in danger". Add several loud crashing rockfalls, "killing" and "injuring" several investigators (good wound moulage and lots of screaming/moaning as they are loaded into ambulances) and obscuring the entrance from within, and you have a place that people can't/won't want to get into.

[Legbreaker]

The 194th only left Ft Know in August 1999. It seems safe to say that up until this point they were jointly tasked (along with dedicated civilian and/or military personnel) with protecting the depository.

Therefore, why would it need to be moved any earlier than August 1999?

What do we know about the protective units of the depository? Sure it can't rely solely on the local military units? Sure there must be members of the treasury there? Perhaps this dedicated force was deemed sufficient to protect the depository against what was expected to be no more than local marauders and refugees? Remember that an organised threat in the form of NA didn't show up until 15 months later.

[Legbreaker]

What about taking a page from Allegheny Uprising? Mammoth Cave is about 40-50 miles straight down I-65 from Ft. Knox.
Takes a LOT of trucks to shift the gold, not to mention forklifts and the like. I like the deception plan idea, but just can't see ANYONE mustering the sort of transportation required. Barges perhaps, but you still need to get the gold across land to the river, the barges to wherever they're going, then the gold off the barges, back onto trucks, trains, whatever and into a secure storage facility(s).

Perhaps a better plan might be to deceive any observers into thinking the gold was moved - would probably require less vehicles, less people, and certainly less engineering work at the other end.

Even just spreading the rumour that the 194th loaded up their trucks when they headed out in August 99 might be enough to shift attention away.

[HorseSoldier]

Gold or no, 194th probably has access to some amount of rail rolling stock that they could use to move equipment back and forth to the port of Louisville, unless conditions in the city were completely out of control. I'd guess they work pretty hard at moving their AFVs by rail or water to save on wear and tear (and because I doubt they have a great supply of HETs available).

[Legbreaker]

Very true, where possible any unit will be using rail or water to transport their heavy equipment - tank tracks wear out and in 2000 they certainly don't grow on trees. Much more fuel economical too I believe.

There may not be a lot of diesel electric engines left laying about in working order (emp if nothing else would have fried them), but there's a handful of steam locomotives still about, or a conventional truck tractor may be converted to run on rails - once it's moving apparently it doesn't take a lot to keep a train going.