Question about Basic/Ait Units going to war.

[Abbott Shaull]

Okay I remember when I was going through Basic/Ait back so many moons ago, towards the end of the Cold War. One of the remarks was if the balloon had gone up the Company would of been sent to war together.

Now would this mean that that the Company Command staff with the Drill Sergeants along with the newly minted would be sent over to where ever as Company? Or would the new recruits be sent over for replacements? Never really understood what they meant by it and never really ask. Just wondering anyone would know how that would work out.

If we were sent over as Combat Company would the National Guard and Reserve members stay and get sent back to their units or would they have gone with the Company?

At the time our Training Battalion had Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, and Delta company training as Cohort for the stationing with the 7th Light Infantry Division. The company I was in Echo, so it sounded as if we went as Company we would basically go over as separate company, we were 5 week behind the rest of the Battalion too, which worked out since we received the Cohort Recycles.

Okay this leads to another question, the US Army was building Cohort units even at this time in response to Reagan Era increase of the US Army. What type of units did they build as Cohorts?

In either case it seemed to me the Cohort units would need other specialist such as supply, commo, and medical support added to the unit after they left Basic/AIT. I am sure if the Company had to go to war, we would receive some of these personnel too on our way to the theater if we weren't meant to go through as replacements.

Thank you.

Abbott Shaull

[Webstral]

These are good questions. In a Twilight: 2000 context, I think it's important to draw distinctions between the period 12/96-07/97, 07/97-11/97, and 11/97 onward. In the first timeframe, it seems highly unlikely that whole Basic/AIT companies would be sent onward except in cases where entire battalions had been withdrawn for reconstitution in the rear. In these instances, the survivors would form the cadre of officers and NCOs, while the newbie would play Joe. The drill sergeants and other training cadre would be too valuable in their training role to send forward.

In the middle timeframe, it's possible that entire AIT companies might be sent forward as a group. The initiation of nuclear action would have disrupted the global transportation system, so it's entirely possible that keeping entire companies together would have been more manageable than sending individuals or platoons in different directions. I still find it hard to see the Army sending its trainers forward, though.

In the final timeframe, it seems to be a given that the trainers lose their specialized training role. The US Army Reserve divisions transition to light infantry in 1998. On posts like Benning and Sill, a few drill sergeants might have been kept on in their training role, but the pressing need for manpower probably would have resulted in most of these guys going back to the line.

Still, everything I've written is a generalization. Exceptions to the rule may abound in every instance.

At Huachuca, the drill sergeants are rolled into the new line units of 111th Brigade after the TDM. It's only after the summer fighting of 1998 ends and the brigade starts to rebuild that any significant number of the drills are released for unit training again.


Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

These are good questions. In a Twilight: 2000 context, I think it's important to draw distinctions between the period 12/96-07/97, 07/97-11/97, and 11/97 onward. In the first timeframe, it seems highly unlikely that whole Basic/AIT companies would be sent onward except in cases where entire battalions had been withdrawn for reconstitution in the rear. In these instances, the survivors would form the cadre of officers and NCOs, while the newbie would play Joe. The drill sergeants and other training cadre would be too valuable in their training role to send forward.

In the middle timeframe, it's possible that entire AIT companies might be sent forward as a group. The initiation of nuclear action would have disrupted the global transportation system, so it's entirely possible that keeping entire companies together would have been more manageable than sending individuals or platoons in different directions. I still find it hard to see the Army sending its trainers forward, though.

In the final timeframe, it seems to be a given that the trainers lose their specialized training role. The US Army Reserve divisions transition to light infantry in 1998. On posts like Benning and Sill, a few drill sergeants might have been kept on in their training role, but the pressing need for manpower probably would have resulted in most of these guys going back to the line.

Still, everything I've written is a generalization. Exceptions to the rule may abound in every instance.

At Huachuca, the drill sergeants are rolled into the new line units of 111th Brigade after the TDM. It's only after the summer fighting of 1998 ends and the brigade starts to rebuild that any significant number of the drills are released for unit training again.


Webstral
Well if you remember in The Band of Brothers the training NCO were there to help the assigned Officers of the 506th train and then they were transferred out as me with the platoons, companies, and battalions were promoted to the NCO ranks. So it could happen again, to keep the Drill Sergeants and Instructors back in the State for training purposes. Of course, the down side is lot of the NCOs have a sharper learning curve than the Officers and one of the few time where roles would be reverse with junior Officer helping in training of senior NCOs.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah I agree after TDM more and more of the Drill Sergeants and Instructors will be moved forward with their units that are passing out of training. On the other hand, there will be those E-4 and NCOs who have been wounded or rotated back to help give first hand accounts what the new troops would be facing by this time too.

Just some thoughts.

[Abbott Shaull]

Okay after looking I found there some Companies and Platoon that were cohorts that served in the 82nd Airborne and 101st Air Assault. I know a lot of these units went to the 10th Mountain since it had only been recently reformed. I also know there were plenty of cohorts that went the 6th, 7th, and 25th Division as they were in states of rebuilding to as the US Army attempted to reorganize the 7th and 25th from Heavy formation to Light. The 10th was total being built from the ground up, and the 6th was being reorganized from Brigade size force already in Alaska into a Division.

In addition I know there were plenty who went to Germany since at the time it was three year tour. Not sure if any went to Korea. Pretty sure the 177th Armor Brigade and 9th Motorized Division were probably the only two Brigade/Division size unit that didn't get many Cohorts due to their unique missions, one experience OpFor force and test bed unit, both needed to have troops that needed to know their stuff. With what I have read probably not any in the Armor Cavalry Regiment either due to the high state of readiness they had to have. One of the lesson that they seemed to have learned the hard way with the Cohort Companies and Platoon sent to the 82nd Airborne Division in which a few missed their first DRF rotation due to lack of having time to get train and complete certification. Explains why also some of the 82nd Airborne Battalion were hodge-podge during Grenada too.

Thanks Web for answering so quickly.

[dragoon500ly]

Okay this leads to another question, the US Army was building Cohort units even at this time in response to Reagan Era increase of the US Army. What type of units did they build as Cohorts?

In either case it seemed to me the Cohort units would need other specialist such as supply, commo, and medical support added to the unit after they left Basic/AIT. I am sure if the Company had to go to war, we would receive some of these personnel too on our way to the theater if we weren't meant to go through as replacements.

The Cohort battalions really kicked off in 1984 with the formation of 2-5 FA/1ID in Sep 84 and slated to rotate with 4-5FA/1IF Fwd in June 1986. The next three battalions were to be formed in March of 1985 (1-41INF/2AD; 3-325 INF/2ABD; 2-5CAV/1CD)

In 1985, 7ID was to organize 3 INF and 1 FA bns as Cohort. and 10ID was to organize a FA bn.

1986 would see 10ID organize a further 6 INF and 1 FA bns, the 25ID to organize 3 INF and 1 FA bns.

1987 would have the 6ID organize 3 INF and 1 FA bns.

The Cohort battalions were supposed to be the start of the new Regimental System; as of FY1984, these were the regiments and the number of battalions to be assigned to each regiment:

Armor
8th CAV [3]
32nd ARM [4]
34th ARM [4]
37th ARM [4]
64th ARM [6]
66th ARM [3]
67th ARM [4]
68th ARM [4]
69th ARM [5]
70th ARM [5]
73rd ARM [5]
77th ARM [6]

Infantry (Light)
1st INF [4]
2nd INF [4]
9th INF [3]
17th INF [3]
21st INF [4]
23rd INF [3]

Infantry (Mechanized)
4th INF [5]
5th INF [3]
5th CAV [3]
6th INF [4]
7th INF [4]
8th INF [4]
12th INF [4]
15th INF [4]
16th INF [4]
18th INF [4]
41st INF [4]
52nd INF [4]

Infantry (Airborne)
187th INF [4]
325th INF [4]
327th Inf [6]
502nd INF [6]
504th INF [3]
505th INF [3]

Air Defense Artillery
1st ADA [6]
2nd ADA [4]
4th ADA [7]
5th ADA [4]
62nd ADA [4]

Field Artillery
1st FA [5]
3rd FA [5]
5th FA [5]
6th FA [4]
7th FA [4]
8th FA [7]
9th FA [4]
11th FA [6]
12th FA [4]
13th FA [4]
15th FA [4]
17th FA [5]
29th FA [6]
32nd FA [4]
41st FA [7]
77th FA [4]
82nd FA [6]
319th FA [3]
320th FA [4]

The 3rd ADA regiment was supposed to be added to the list in FY 1988 with 4 battalions.

Two "regiments" are missing from the list, 2nd FA and 3rd INF, these are the ceremonial units in Washington DC.

The 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger) is considered to be part of the list, although it was never considered for the Cohort program.

The armored cavalry and air cavalry squadrons would eventually be Cohort as well, but this was for FY 1988, 1990.

When the Regimental system was finally activated, a total of 93 regiments would be on the rolls...but then came the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Peace Dividend and the Bush Wars (Or would that be the War of the Bushs?)

[Abbott Shaull]

The Cohort battalions really kicked off in 1984 with the formation of 2-5 FA/1ID in Sep 84 and slated to rotate with 4-5FA/1IF Fwd in June 1986. The next three battalions were to be formed in March of 1985 (1-41INF/2AD; 3-325 INF/2ABD; 2-5CAV/1CD)

In 1985, 7ID was to organize 3 INF and 1 FA bns as Cohort. and 10ID was to organize a FA bn.

1986 would see 10ID organize a further 6 INF and 1 FA bns, the 25ID to organize 3 INF and 1 FA bns.

1987 would have the 6ID organize 3 INF and 1 FA bns.

The Cohort battalions were supposed to be the start of the new Regimental System; as of FY1984, these were the regiments and the number of battalions to be assigned to each regiment:

Armor
8th CAV [3]
32nd ARM [4]
34th ARM [4]
37th ARM [4]
64th ARM [6]
66th ARM [3]
67th ARM [4]
68th ARM [4]
69th ARM [5]
70th ARM [5]
73rd ARM [5]
77th ARM [6]

Infantry (Light)
1st INF [4]
2nd INF [4]
9th INF [3]
17th INF [3]
21st INF [4]
23rd INF [3]

Infantry (Mechanized)
4th INF [5]
5th INF [3]
5th CAV [3]
6th INF [4]
7th INF [4]
8th INF [4]
12th INF [4]
15th INF [4]
16th INF [4]
18th INF [4]
41st INF [4]
52nd INF [4]

Infantry (Airborne)
187th INF [4]
325th INF [4]
327th Inf [6]
502nd INF [6]
504th INF [3]
505th INF [3]

Air Defense Artillery
1st ADA [6]
2nd ADA [4]
4th ADA [7]
5th ADA [4]
62nd ADA [4]

Field Artillery
1st FA [5]
3rd FA [5]
5th FA [5]
6th FA [4]
7th FA [4]
8th FA [7]
9th FA [4]
11th FA [6]
12th FA [4]
13th FA [4]
15th FA [4]
17th FA [5]
29th FA [6]
32nd FA [4]
41st FA [7]
77th FA [4]
82nd FA [6]
319th FA [3]
320th FA [4]

The 3rd ADA regiment was supposed to be added to the list in FY 1988 with 4 battalions.

Two "regiments" are missing from the list, 2nd FA and 3rd INF, these are the ceremonial units in Washington DC.

The 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger) is considered to be part of the list, although it was never considered for the Cohort program.

The armored cavalry and air cavalry squadrons would eventually be Cohort as well, but this was for FY 1988, 1990.

When the Regimental system was finally activated, a total of 93 regiments would be on the rolls...but then came the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Peace Dividend and the Bush Wars (Or would that be the War of the Bushs?)

Thanks I figured you would have the most information on this. Shudders at the thought that they would have ACR with cohort Squadrons considering how much trouble they had with Cohort units in the 82nd Airborne Division. Well maybe the 3rd ACR wouldn't disrupt their mission too much as long as the cohort had time to train and be effective.

I know it was interesting concept.

Just some thoughts....

[HorseSoldier]

I think 4th ID or 9th ID in Vietnam was built as a cohorted unit from the ground up -- draftees from day one grouped, trained, sent to Vietnam together on that division's deployment there. Apparently worked well, but they subsequently turned into the usual individual replacement format after the first year.

Anyway, in a T2K sense -- cohorts coming out of training units would be broken up, but an effort might be made to front load people from the same training cycles to the same units needing BCPs.

Sending the drill sergeants off with them wouldn't probably be done. The military has tried pretty vigorously to build a robust and redundant training cadre capability and shafted lots of guys with drill sergeant duty who're only there because their career demands it. Still, even with that there's going to be heavy attrition among qualifed Drills and most likely the preferred course of action at the big picture level would be to keep guys in those positions until such a time as the need for mid level NCO casualty replacements (and mobilization of the USAR drill sergeant units) pulled them out of the mix as a last resort.

[Abbott Shaull]

I think 4th ID or 9th ID in Vietnam was built as a cohorted unit from the ground up -- draftees from day one grouped, trained, sent to Vietnam together on that division's deployment there. Apparently worked well, but they subsequently turned into the usual individual replacement format after the first year.

Anyway, in a T2K sense -- cohorts coming out of training units would be broken up, but an effort might be made to front load people from the same training cycles to the same units needing BCPs.

Sending the drill sergeants off with them wouldn't probably be done. The military has tried pretty vigorously to build a robust and redundant training cadre capability and shafted lots of guys with drill sergeant duty who're only there because their career demands it. Still, even with that there's going to be heavy attrition among qualifed Drills and most likely the preferred course of action at the big picture level would be to keep guys in those positions until such a time as the need for mid level NCO casualty replacements (and mobilization of the USAR drill sergeant units) pulled them out of the mix as a last resort.

This is why I would believe lead to maybe initially some new Divisional formation would be made in the short term. For at least one rotation of training, maybe if we had extended build up period maybe two rotations where new Brigades and Division could be built. I think at this time depending on if you had the 1st PG War in your time line or not, that a Forward Support Battalion/Sustainment Battalions and Special Troops Battalion would be need at Brigade level as well as the Artillery, Engineer, and possible Cavalry units assigned to them. Of course this would mean troops would be drained at Army and Corps level to fill these roles in Divisions and Brigade already in the fighting and in turn these unit would have to be replace.

One thing I never put much into were the Reserve and National Guard Brigades that had been re-tasked into Infantry Brigades. I can see to a point that they were made into something like the Enhance Maneuver Brigades in which they would be Corps or Divisional level asset helping to secure areas where needed. With the shortage of certain types of units that would be needed, it seems to me that to use excess Air Force and Naval personnel to be re-tasked into infantry if there was such shortage once they no longer had aircraft and ship to support. Just my opinion.

I can see several Brigades of troops being raised like this. Especially after they start opening replacement and training centers and reopening closed bases. In many cases Fort Bragg, Fort Campbell, Fort Hood, Fort Lewis, Fort Stewart, Fort Carson and Fort Riley being used to trained combat Brigades from basic through until the unit ships out. Many of the troop would get 11B training, while as the unit get through Basic/AIT phase and some troops of other MOS are brought introduced such Suppy, Commo, Medics, Scouts and what other specialist may be found in Battalion and Company level HQ. Many of the men with 11B and 11C will be trained by the few specialist to perform the other needed jobs while they continue their training. The major shortage I see would be the Medics and other Medical/Dental MOS overall.

There are also many National Guard and Reserve Camps that probably could be pressed into training and replacement centers too. Such as Fort McCoy, there is one in MN, that I can't remember the name of right now, and Camp Grayling in Michigan and other locations where unit could further their training before being shipped overseas.

Then again there is nothing like going to your new unit, and few months later one of your old Drill Sergeants show up as Staff Sergeant in another platoon in your company. So you can't go, we never cover that story line. lol. Of course, this individual was one squared away guy anyways and made E-4 and E-5 quickly. I am sure having a uncle who was a Major in the Division helped just a tad bit in getting the promotion, especially he had only been in the unit few months before I got there and E-5 in about 9 month after I got there.

Of course at this time the Staff Sergeant who had been his Drill Sergeant got his E-7 and couple of E-5 were promoted up to E-6. Of course, at the time these new E-6's as well the E-5 had plenty of the other E-6 and higher in the Company grumbling too about how fast they were promoted to their position considering many of them had sent at least multiple terms (8 to 12 years) in before getting E-6.

Seems like back in Basic Training it seem that many of the Drill Sergeants even the E-5s had been in for 6 years or more. Many were just filling the billets for promotion points for their next promotion, while some had been sent back to be Drill Sergeants because it was their turn to fill in their time there. For example the E-7 for our Platoon was working on he required rotation out of Special Forces community. While the E-6 one had been injured on the Q-Course and couldn't be placed on hold-over status, nor could he go back to his original units, so the Army in it wisdom sent in to Drill Sergeant School and he passing his time to get done and head back to the Q-Course. The other E-5 like many Drill Sergeants in the Company didn't really want to be there at all, while there were few that never really gave the impression they didn't want to be there as Drill Sergeant duty.

Then again our Company was out of training cycle with the rest of the Battalion for some reason. At this time Cohorts units were being processed and the last Infantry Battalions for the 10th Mountain Division were finishing their training at Fort Benning. Somehow the training company was established with something toward 120-130 men instead of the upward to 200 men. CO, XO, and the First Sergeant weren't happy either. I guess they were told to organize the Company into three Platoons since even they would be understrength. There were couple times when out transportation issues, was cut way shorter than it should of been, in which the CO turned to the First Sergeant and stated, "Next time we don't have enough troops to fill out the four platoons, we will still organize them anyways, it's BS that we can't get enough transport to move our troops safely." On the other hand the Drill Sergeants for the fourth platoon after about the 4th week were finally assigned on to the other three platoons, after they had been rotating helping out where needed in the Company, so each Platoon had 4 Drill Sergeant instead of 3.

With some of the BS like lack of adequate transportation and other issues going on, probably had lot to do with some of the Drill Sergeant negative attitude about their current assignments. One has to remember this was the start of Zero Tolerance. Many knew if something happen during transport, they knew the risk to their career even if they had little control. It was the start of when common sense was out the window, and people who were being held accountable for silliness for decisions being made up higher along the chain of command. Or the fact that things like the Obstacle Course and the Bayonet Training Course were shut down during our train cycle (May I remind you we were Infantry One Unit Training Station).

That and the fact that all of Drill Sergeant had gone through old school basic training where it wasn't uncommon for you to get your ass handed to by the DS for doing something stupid. I know by the time my brother had enter the army 4 years later, it only gotten worse with none stress training environment. So I can't blame many of them for being a little disgruntled in the job they were being asked to do. Just hope they have done away with a lot of the non-stress bs since 9-11, but I bet probably not.

Sorry about the soap box. Getting off it now...

Just some thoughts...