*Post*-TDM armor production.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

What, on any level, would occur?

I'm guessing little to none, and the "little" would constitute more "building" technicals (clearing out local dealerships of H2s and H3s and hauling 'em down to whatever passes in the state as an armory for repair/stripping and arming) and cobbling together vehicles out of what was left over of kits or Anniston-bound repair cases.

Your thoughts, all?

[Abbott Shaull]

I think whatever production factories that weren't wiped out and still had parts would continue for the time being to product until they either ran out of parts, which under the circumstances wouldn't take long. As you get further from TDM, even the refits would stop due to cost/lack of getting vehicle to depot to repairs and spare parts.

[Legbreaker]

I agree. Once the ready supply of materials is exhausted, the only "production" carried out would involve stripping damaged vehicles and fixing up others or cobbling together makeshift substitutes.

[Arrissen]

There must be places/ countries in the world largely unaffected by the war who make AFV's besides France and Mexico (for a time), any thoughts?

[HorseSoldier]

Well besides France, Japan survives largely intact and has domestic production for their more or less Leo 2 knock off and other AFVs. I see them being movers and shakers all over the Pacific trying to keep themselves afloat in terns of fuel, food and other essentials but suspect they'd switch their production over to some cheaper light tank -- they mostly need fire support for COIN sort of stuff and holding key facilities that is fairly easy to ship and cheap to keep running.

[Legbreaker]

Of course Japan does have that pesky constitutional issue with not sending military outside their own boundaries. They <i>may</i> be able to produce a few vehicles, but only provided they can get the raw materials from elsewhere, and EMP hasn't fried their energy production capabilities as it does elsewhere on the planet.

Note also that nukes were first used relatively close to Japan in China many months before continental US felt their heat, and continued to be used for quite some time.

[Arrissen]

Well that's true about Japan, but I think that once the nukes fly all bets are off and they could do whatever the hell they like. Besides the only reason they weren't "allowed" to deployed O/S was because of US policy/ enforcement after WWII, who having seen how very frightening and naughty they can be, decided that it was probably best if they just stayed home and did what they were told. Kind of like a punk kid who's been grounded. And, you know they sure know how to bounce back.

What about South America? Is there much info about what happened there in T2K? A few countries there make AFV's.

[Legbreaker]

I wouldn't write off the Japanese reluctance to deploy abroad. Look at what happened when a medical unit was sent to the middle east a couple of years ago - it almost brought down the government even though they weren't combat troops but there for humanitarian reasons.

No, Japanese troops would remain firmly within Japanese borders unless something absolutely catastrophic occurred.

This isn't to say their produce wouldn't be exported or that western units wouldn't be welcome to spend R&R in the country (while transportation to and fro was still possible).

[HorseSoldier]

Once the nukes fly I think the Japanese constitution's restrictions on expeditonary military operations goes out the window fast -- but not so much in the sense of them trying to invade much of anywhere so much as establishing defended trading enclaves, piracy suppression at sea, and expeditionary work on land against warlords and such who get in the way. Just to feed the nation's population at present levels requires they continue to be food importers, fuel is obviously a desperate essential and all sorts of other raw materials are likewise going to have to come in from overseas. The JSDF is going to get pressed into service fighting to keep trade functional in the Pacific Rim, more a la the USMC's pre WW2 banana campaigns than the Greater East Asia Coprosperity Redux.

And they're inherently going to be overstretched in that role, so I see them trying to tie their efforts into some sort of coalition with stable friendly governments and pseudo governments that provide patches of stability like the surviving Australian government, New Zealand, the US garrison on Hawaii and the US/Canadian enclaves in the Pacific Northwest.

I could see them playing ball with the Soviet remnants in North America and elsewhere, though in my personal take on the situation in Alaska circa 2001, I have the Japanese occupying the Cook Inlet oil fields south of Anchorage (not as impressive as the North Slope, but not dependent in the pipeline) and garrisoning it with about a brigade -- one JGSDF battalion plus American mercenaries recruited out of Korea. But I see that as kind of about as heavy as they rollon foreign deployments, with more common stuff being a platoon or company here and there at trading posts or as ships troops, and the AK deal not being the only use of stranded ex-pat mercenaries. (which also seems like a cool potential campaign idea for PCs).

[Adm.Lee]

No, Japanese troops would remain firmly within Japanese borders unless something absolutely catastrophic occurred.


Something MORE catastrophic than World War III?

IMO, I was surprised that Japanese forces haven't appeared to assist the Chinese in Manchuria vs. the Soviets, or replaced/reinforced the US forces in Korea in 1998.

AFAIK, their navy should be intact, and I can't recall if they were nuked much or not. If they have armor production facilities, they would need steel & other components, which would have to be bought from... China? or wherever their peacetime sources were. Selling that armor to the US and shipping it to either the Korean or California fronts seems like a winner of an idea in 1998 or 1999.

Regarding them being major regional players, I quite agree. If they are undamaged, they could certainly make a stab at being the power of the Pacific, as long as they can keep the oil flowing.

Anyway, back to armored production, I do recall from reading the nukes list that the Lima, Ohio plant for making M1's is near the top of the list. I don't recall where the Bradley/Devers AMGeneral plant is.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

If we go with the RDF/LT (LAV-75 and variants - that's a wonderful thread that got resurrected) as being produced by AAI primarily (which we can: they're the ones who proposed it back in the 80s) then the production facilities are just north of Baltimore, 60mi. north of DC. They might (MIGHT) be OK. But probably not.

[Abbott Shaull]

Brazil and South Africa come to mind as arms exporters.

[Abbott Shaull]

Something MORE catastrophic than World War III?

IMO, I was surprised that Japanese forces haven't appeared to assist the Chinese in Manchuria vs. the Soviets, or replaced/reinforced the US forces in Korea in 1998.

AFAIK, their navy should be intact, and I can't recall if they were nuked much or not. If they have armor production facilities, they would need steel & other components, which would have to be bought from... China? or wherever their peacetime sources were. Selling that armor to the US and shipping it to either the Korean or California fronts seems like a winner of an idea in 1998 or 1999.

Regarding them being major regional players, I quite agree. If they are undamaged, they could certainly make a stab at being the power of the Pacific, as long as they can keep the oil flowing.

Anyway, back to armored production, I do recall from reading the nukes list that the Lima, Ohio plant for making M1's is near the top of the list. I don't recall where the Bradley/Devers AMGeneral plant is.

The one thing about Japan is getting raw materials after TDM.

[dragoon500ly]

Something MORE catastrophic than World War III?

IMO, I was surprised that Japanese forces haven't appeared to assist the Chinese in Manchuria vs. the Soviets, or replaced/reinforced the US forces in Korea in 1998.

AFAIK, their navy should be intact, and I can't recall if they were nuked much or not. If they have armor production facilities, they would need steel & other components, which would have to be bought from... China? or wherever their peacetime sources were. Selling that armor to the US and shipping it to either the Korean or California fronts seems like a winner of an idea in 1998 or 1999.

Regarding them being major regional players, I quite agree. If they are undamaged, they could certainly make a stab at being the power of the Pacific, as long as they can keep the oil flowing.

Anyway, back to armored production, I do recall from reading the nukes list that the Lima, Ohio plant for making M1's is near the top of the list. I don't recall where the Bradley/Devers AMGeneral plant is.

Considering that Japan has to import virtually all of its raw material, I think a good case could be argued for them siting naval bases to cover critical areas, of course, this would require troops to protect the bases, etc. This would, in turn, mean that they would try to coordinate with local governments, reinforcing them with military and economic aid.

[Abbott Shaull]

I also think the M1 Plant in Warren, was also a target which in the all the timelines would still be producing M1s. Gee to think one of the place I applied to work sits literally outside of this former plant. So glad the cold war is over. Don't know if I could live that close to target rich environment after leaving Soo Locks area.

[dragoon500ly]

Dad was stationed at this little place right outside of Omaha....it was a running joke on how the survivors would not need any external light sources as we would all be glowing from the near misses!

[HorseSoldier]

Brazil and South Africa come to mind as arms exporters.

Twilight War South Africa . . . I'd think it largely implodes, but with some areas hanging on. Possibly even some industrial areas -- and SADF was already heavily in the market for lighter/cheaper AFVs that would be easier to keep in production if things were stable enough for it.

Brazil is pretty much the same -- both in terms of capability and questionable ability to keep their situation together enough to use it post-TDM. Very large agricultural sector in that country but it's mostly agribusiness for export and they're actually a net importer of even basic staples like rice and beans (food is comparatively very expensive in Brazil). In the Twilight timeline, Brazil may have been actively producing the EE-T1 Osorio MBT that didn't make it IRL at least in part due to the end of the Cold War.

Argentina also has the production line for the TAM light tank or medium tank and vehicles based on that hull.

Not sure if anyone else in South America had any even light AFV production capability, but may be forgetting something.

[Rainbow Six]

Anyway, back to armored production, I do recall from reading the nukes list that the Lima, Ohio plant for making M1's is near the top of the list. I don't recall where the Bradley/Devers AMGeneral plant is.

The Lima plant is the subject of a Challenge magazine adventure (#56, The Lima Incident). The manufacturing plant is described as being relatively intact (according to the article the plant is in the north east of the City and the nuke strike hit to the south west).

[Legbreaker]

Something MORE catastrophic than World War III?
Again I come back to the Japanese constitution and the near ousting of the government just a couple of years ago due to a military medical team being sent abroad... Just imagine what would happen if they sent actual combat troops, even if it was ostensibly to ensure resources security.
Oh, wait, wasn't Japan's aggression in the 1930's all about resources security...?
Japan: The war with the Soviets over Sakhalin Island and the Kuriles brough Japan under nuclear attack in late 1997. Japanese industry was heavily damaged, and Tokyo all but destroyed. Martial law was never formally proclaimed, but most areas are governed by military officers who hold both civil and military positions. Each community counts as insular or independant, although they are all nominally under central control. The large cities are devastated, mostly from the civil unrest which followed the breakdown of the world economy and cessation of foreign imports.
I think that effectively puts Japan out of the running for post nuke tank production, and places about 95%+ of their naval capability on the sea floor. Japan's not projecting their power anywhere for any reason for quite some years to come.
Brazil and South Africa come to mind as arms exporters.
Argentina/Brazil: The Argentinians attempted to reoccupy the Falklands/Malvinas after 1996, and the British were unable to spare more than a token force for the islands defence. Argentina itself withdrew when war broke out with Brazil in 1998, and a small scale exchange of low yield nuclear weapons between the two countries completed their slide into chaos. Central government in both countries has broken down, and both are now divided into semifeudal territories ruled by military juntas or local community governments.
Hmm, no, I don't see Brazil sparing a single military vehicle at any time in the late 90's and once Argentina and Brazil throw nukes at each other, they won't even be able to supply their own shattered forces.

South Africa on the other hand appears to have escaped the war fairly well, but has suffered significant civil upheaval. There is a chance they may have retained the relatively minor armour production capability they had in the 90's, but are unlikely to be in a position to be exporting anything.

[Tegyrius]

So, ah... where'd Argentina and Brazil get nukes to throw at each other?

- C.

[Arrissen]

So, ah... where'd Argentina and Brazil get nukes to throw at each other?

- C.

I was wondering the same thing. Where is the info on that part of the world in the game?

[Legbreaker]

So, ah... where'd Argentina and Brazil get nukes to throw at each other?

Shhhhh! Stop using logic! ;)

Does it matter though? Perhaps in the alternate timeline that is T2K they developed them themselves (using ex nazi scientists), or bought them from a third party? It really doesn't matter that much though. The important thing is that they are shown to have possessed and used them against each other thereby destroying the industrial capability of the region.

[Targan]

Regarding them being major regional players, I quite agree. If they are undamaged, they could certainly make a stab at being the power of the Pacific, as long as they can keep the oil flowing.

According to the Traveller:2300 timeline that's exactly what happened. In the 100 years following the Twilight War Japan was the premier maritime power in the Pacific, and in their hemisphere the Japanese almost single handedly kept international trade going in the first two or three post-Twilight War decades.

[Arrissen]

Shhhhh! Stop using logic! ;)

Does it matter though? Perhaps in the alternate timeline that is T2K they developed them themselves (using ex nazi scientists), or bought them from a third party? It really doesn't matter that much though. The important thing is that they are shown to have possessed and used them against each other thereby destroying the industrial capability of the region.

Well well, evil Nazi's huh? That's just great. Right when I thought I might have found us another source of AFV's to play with...Damn.

You know Brazil has 1.5 million Japanese and Argentina 3 million Germans.
Maybe they had their own covert nuclear arms race between radical ex-pats sending eachother suitcase nukes or something?! Cos I can't see the sun kissed and generally laid back people from either of these countries nuking anyone. Ever.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well well, evil Nazi's huh? That's just great. Right when I thought I might have found us another source of AFV's to play with...Damn.

You know Brazil has 1.5 million Japanese and Argentina 3 million Germans.
Maybe they had their own covert nuclear arms race between radical ex-pats sending eachother suitcase nukes or something?! Cos I can't see the sun kissed and generally laid back people from either of these countries nuking anyone. Ever.

Well I always found interesting that GDW overlooked such gems of Arms exporters such as Brazil, Argentina, Chile, South Africa, and Singapore to name a few that come to mind. Isreali arms got mention in the Middle East and some of the Europe due to the closeness of the area. I recall some of the equipment surfacing here and there, but they were largely ignored. Granted in many cases the South Americans arms would of been in many cases comparable to stuff Cat B units of the Soviets and National Guard/Reserve unit in the GDW version 1 timeline.

Yet, after the TDM the contested battle zones of Europe would be much like Balkan region and the Middle East around Isreal where any thing that was a Tank at one time no matter how long ago our inferior of the best that you have, is still used as Tank or Tank Destroyer. Same with outdated APC or inferior APC/IFV would be press into service.

Of course, in most cases after the TDM many of these countries would only export for limited time, before they like many other would keep what is being produce for local use. Maybe a decade or two once nations starting to rebuild enough where they may be looking into spending money on defense, I can see these locations becoming where to go.

Just some thoughts.

[HorseSoldier]

At some point in the Cold War I think there is solid documentation that Brazil and Argentina had nuke programs but neither got to the point of fielding a workable weapon. I assume GDW was reflecting defense community rumor/speculation from that era when they talk about Argie and Brazilian nukes.

As for Japan in the BYB, I think it is a case of whoever wrote that being out of step with the t2k v1/ 2300AD situation in Japan. (Not the only place where it varies in subtle ways from stuff in v1 as well as the big goat rodeo disaster that is BYBs written timeline . . .)

[pmulcahy11b]

I have a feeling that, after a certain point, most of post-TDM armor manufacture will be things like armored gun trucks and the steel-plated HMMWVs that were seen so often in the Iraq War.

[Arrissen]

"At some point in the Cold War I think there is solid documentation that Brazil and Argentina had nuke programs but neither got to the point of fielding a workable weapon. I assume GDW was reflecting defense community rumor/speculation from that era when they talk about Argie and Brazilian nukes." - HorseSoldier

Yeah this seems to be the case. Check it out on Wikipedia - It was fairly covert too. Bit of a lazy way to write off all of South America though IMO.

[HorseSoldier]

I'd guess that the Brazilian-Argentine nuclear exchange in T2K probably amounted to anywhere from a pair of weapons to a handful exchanged tit-for-tat style.

Buenos Aires probably got nuked. Probably Porto Alegre on the Brazil side, which isn't a one-for-one trade, but it's the biggest city Argentina probably had effective means to strike. I'm picturing both sides using pretty crude weapons, possibly Manhattan programmed once their shooting war started rather than a pre-existing and super-hush stockpile. Means of delivery was probably pretty limited and yield likewise.

In a shorter version of the story -- probably not enough damage from the nukes or the ground war to take either nation seriously offline circa 2000.

That said, Brazil probably is fragmenting badly under its own weight circa 2000. I mentioned food being a big issue in Brazil -- if the government introduced some sort of program to encourage/force better self-reliance for basic food supplies in the '95-97 era before the world distribution networks just collapsed they might take the edge of that razor blade some. But agribusiness might have been raking in the profits as demand increased from the war, and gone the exact opposite direction.

Either way, you've got some serious cultural divides between agricultural north Brazil and industrialized south Brazil and the ticking timebombs of the favelas in every city where the population is barely getting by as is. If Brazil, at the national or regional level, is going to keep it together things will get real draconian real fast -- even by the standards of a nation where police death squads are considered "kind of inappropriate" and even non-extra legal police actions can involve support weapons up to grenade launcher and machine gun level without raising many eye brows.

Circa 2000 I see Brazil kind of on par with ca 2000 America, situation wise -- a couple different governments claiming legitimacy, reflecting that north-south split and probably the southern government slowly winning a war to settle things with the north. Most everything up the Amazon is just gone completely off the rails and collapsed. Depending on how you see the Arg-Bra war going, possibly a Brazilian occupation force sitting in Uruguay, or an Argentine occupation force doing the same, or maybe the two staring at each other across a no mans land somewhere in the middle of Uruguay.

Argentina is, I think, better set up for cultural cohesion and doesn't have quite the same urban mess Brazil has (though to be fair, I spent a lot of time in grad school dealing with Brazilian topics, none I can recall on Argentina, so I may just not be aware). Of course they also have a historical beef with Chile and the risk of additional security issues on that border.

(And the Falklands -- honestly, I don't see them making a play for Las Islas Malvinas during the confusion of WW3, and if they did, I think they'd be well served by catching a good spread of SLBMs or other nuclear ordnance from the UK, or even the US. Sic semper imbecillus , and no one appreciates the bratty kid who interrupts when mommy and daddy are trying to kill the neighbors.)

[Abbott Shaull]

I have a feeling that, after a certain point, most of post-TDM armor manufacture will be things like armored gun trucks and the steel-plated HMMWVs that were seen so often in the Iraq War.

Sad thing is since the war the M1 Plant in Warren, MI had been fully decommission. We are selling off our goods and not being able to replace them. Both Iraqi campaigns have give us causes to be too lax. But that is another story...

Yeah I have to agree with you it will be more like making today armor cars than any thing worthy of MBT. By 2000 even M113 armed with three M60s would cause people to have grave concern. *Shrug*

[Legbreaker]

Speaking of the M113, I once had a group of PCs find the M113 in Grenada. After getting it running they promptly drove into the heart of the Cuban controlled area and ended the conflict.

It's amazing what you can do with just one lightly armoured vehicle when nobody has any weapon capable of stopping you.

[HorseSoldier]

Sad thing is since the war the M1 Plant in Warren, MI had been fully decommission. We are selling off our goods and not being able to replace them. Both Iraqi campaigns have give us causes to be too lax. But that is another story...

Big ticket items that require specialized facilities and equipment are a hard sell whenever they aren't running multiple shifts cranking product out as fast as possible, and global just-in-time economics surely isn't helping.

[Legbreaker]

Found this while searching around for info to help round out my proposed Australian OOB for Korea.
And yes, that really is a 25mm AA gun on top of an M113....
http://www.australian-armour.com/vehicles-3cav.htm
http://www.australian-armour.com/3cav_gunshield.jpg

[headquarters]

I wouldn't write off the Japanese reluctance to deploy abroad. Look at what happened when a medical unit was sent to the middle east a couple of years ago - it almost brought down the government even though they weren't combat troops but there for humanitarian reasons.

No, Japanese troops would remain firmly within Japanese borders unless something absolutely catastrophic occurred.

This isn't to say their produce wouldn't be exported or that western units wouldn't be welcome to spend R&R in the country (while transportation to and fro was still possible).

like T2K ...?

Japan has oil and food for possibly 6 months - after that its lights out and starvation. Being the only stable nation in the region it would have to aquire some petrochemicals and foodstuffs somewhere.

Its said that Japan could start today and have a weaponized nuclear device before 6 months have passed. I think they could reverse engineer and improve something like an AFV in a lot shorter time than that. As for materials - they could probably scrap such enormous amounts of metal from domestic consumer and industrial stocks that they could build hundreds if not thousands.

I dont think Japan would adopt an irresponsible stance though - they could be seen as deploying military assets to get their way. But also I think they would seek influence through humanitarian projects - like the distribution of pharmaceuticals - a commodity moreprecious than gold in T2K

-all imho h for humble as always

[Panther Al]

Found this while searching around for info to help round out my proposed Australian OOB for Korea.
And yes, that really is a 25mm AA gun on top of an M113....
http://www.australian-armour.com/vehicles-3cav.htm
http://www.australian-armour.com/3cav_gunshield.jpg

Umm.... that's a stock M2HB with a flash suppressor mounted on the muzzle. You can tell because the flash suppressor is pretty distinctive, and you can see the perforated barrel support/heat jacket of the fifty just past the armour plate.

[Legbreaker]

I do believe you are correct. It appears the author of the page got it rather wrong.
It wouldn't surprise me however if somebody did try something like that. During Vietnam a number of weapon fits were tried on M113s by the Australians including multiple .30 cals, .50 cals, and even one with an M134 borrowed from a Huey gunship. This last one didn't last very long as a viable option - it was apparently like firing 10 M60s all at the one location, and a complete and utter waste of ammo (but sooooo much fun!)

[HorseSoldier]

I've often wondered why no one tried fitting the 20mm commanders cupola from the M114 armored recce vehicle on an M113 ACAV in the Vietnam era, but I'm not aware of anyone trying it. Might be because that particular 20mm gun had reliability issues, or might have been tried and I just haven't heard about it.

[pmulcahy11b]

I've often wondered why no one tried fitting the 20mm commanders cupola from the M114 armored recce vehicle on an M113 ACAV in the Vietnam era, but I'm not aware of anyone trying it. Might be because that particular 20mm gun had reliability issues, or might have been tried and I just haven't heard about it.

There were prototypes with that cupola fitted to the M113 or various 20mm autocannons fitted to several different cupolas and turrets, but none of them got into production. Some never made it past the mock-up phase. Eventually, they skipped the whole idea and went on to develop what became the Bradley.

[Legbreaker]

Personally I prefer the Saladin and Scimitar turrets as fitted to some M113s here in Australia. How can you go wrong with a 76mm cannon on an APC? :p

[dragoon500ly]

I do believe you are correct. It appears the author of the page got it rather wrong.
It wouldn't surprise me however if somebody did try something like that. During Vietnam a number of weapon fits were tried on M113s by the Australians including multiple .30 cals, .50 cals, and even one with an M134 borrowed from a Huey gunship. This last one didn't last very long as a viable option - it was apparently like firing 10 M60s all at the one location, and a complete and utter waste of ammo (but sooooo much fun!)

Not to mention pics of M-113s mounting 106mm or 90mm recoilless rifles.

An E-8 multiple tear gas launcher, mounted on the front slope.

Flamethrower mounted, both a field expident M-2 and something FMC was playing with...

There is also a pic of a M-113 mounting a 20mm cannon on the TCs mount.

Another with a Honeywell hand-cranked 40mm grenade launcher in the tail gunner's spot.

There is also a story floating around that the 11th ACR traded for a breech-loading 81mm mortar from the Coast Guard....never have seen pics but there are so many people claiming to have seen it.

[TrailerParkJawa]

In the v1 world the M113 factory in San Jose would certainly still be in production right up to TDM. The nukes that hit the Bay Area would not damage the factory as they are too far away. The problem after the nuke exchange is now where are they gonna get all the parts, metal, etc, from sub-contractors scattered all over the country as I doubt they made everything right there on the premises.

The factory, in my mind, might still be useful though since it would have lots of tools and expertise to help turn out technicals or home brew mods. Assuming you can provide power and keep the employees from scattering to the winds.

[Legbreaker]

My guess is the factory was actually a primary target rather than the city itself. Any damage to the city would probably be either a byproduct of the attack on the M113 factory, from another warhead in the MIRV, or both.

[rcaf_777]

I looked at TACOM (Tank-automotive and Armaments Command) and I would thinks that most of it's factories would be intact since the are away from major centers or places that nukes fell, they could also some materials or parts on hand I mean are looters going to try and haul a tank tranmission or oil and gas on the site? given the sitution in Twilight I woud'nt be supprised if the workforce is nearby the plants formed into some sort of State Guard or Milita unit.

Here are TACOM Major Plants

Warren, MI
Red River, TX
Rock Island, IL
Anniston, AL
Watervliet, NY
Sierra, CA

[Legbreaker]

The list of targets in the book only shows the larger nuke sites. Valuable strategic targets such as these would almost HAVE to have been attacked, and probably by something that wouldn't be overkill.
Leaving them intact is just plain incomprehensible.

[schnickelfritz]

I would agree that the TACOM sites, especially the Watervliet arsenal (manufacturer of cannon barrels) would be on the hit list. However, it is also entirely possible that those responsible for making that call were incapacitated, had enough of the destruction, or the delivery devices were destroyed. The ICBM's may have been hit in silo, gone off course, or the SLBM's tasked with their destruction may be sitting in a debris field beyond crush depth. I believe the Soviets/Russians had problems with some of their solid fuel engines (SS-24, some SS-25, some SLBM), so you could have had misfires or duds.

With that said, it's your game to run as you like. If you want your game's "devastation setting" to be "at 11", wipe these sites out too.

I look at it that if the canon material doesn't say it's gone, it ain't gone. It may not be functional (lack of materials, personnel, or power), but it isn't irradiated debris either. I point to "Lima Incident" in Challenge Magazine as an example.

My $.05

-Dave

[Legbreaker]

It's worth noting the books only detail those nuclear targets which received 250 kilotonnes or more. This essentially rules out almost every sub launched missile and possibly even aircraft delivered weapons as well.

So it's very possible, even probable that what is shown on the maps and in the books is just a small percentage of actual strikes.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Personally I prefer the Saladin and Scimitar turrets as fitted to some M113s here in Australia. How can you go wrong with a 76mm cannon on an APC? :p

One of my Favorite versions of the M113 :D

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

One other Possibility is that former truck or automotive plants and facility's could/ would be turned into some sort of production. Granted they may not be the latest and greatest of vehicles, but light afvs are better then no afvs.

Some food for though. Think about how little time it took for the US to tool up for WW2. Say with the disruption of the Nukes, even if it would double or triple. Eventually say like early 2001 its possible that there may be something like Improved Sherman's, Half-tracks, trucks and Prop-driven aircraft being produced.

We were really not much of an Industrial power house at the start of WW2. Get the steel plants and the railroads running again. Dedicate the smaller and older refineries to the wartime production (the ones that were not nuked- yes there are some that people are generally unaware of, one is/was near Casper Wyoming). Jobs would be had. Food could be shipped from the farms to the population centers by trains.

[Legbreaker]

The US had 2-3 years of supplying the British before they became embroiled in the war themselves. Plenty of time to ramp up production of the comparatively primitive designs of the time. Even compared against the contemporary German designs, the Sherman for example was barely adequate and basic.

It would be interesting to see how they may have faired if they'd had a cold start and were trying to produce complex machines such as the Tiger or Panther. Probably better than Germany did, but definitely not as well as IRL.

[Rainbow Six]

Here are TACOM Major Plants

Warren, MI
Red River, TX
Rock Island, IL
Anniston, AL
Watervliet, NY
Sierra, CA

If I recall correctly someone did some homebrew stuff on Anniston years ago...from what I remember it was a pretty good write up. It might still be on the net somewhere, but if it is my google fu isn't up to finding it....

[Rockwolf66]

Has anyone else read up on the Armed and Armored Pickup trucks that Los Zetas are useing down in Mexico's drug wars?

Los Monsturos or something like that the news is calling them. The lattest one found is a modified Ford Pickup that can get up to 70mph and is resistant to most mexican small arms. Previous one found could get up to 40 and I've seen a 3rd that looked like a modified Garbage truck or some other vehicle of that size.

At one time I though it was overkill that the El Paso PD had a SAW in it's SWAT inventory...Now I hope they have a Ma Duce that they can fit onto a Bearcat.

[95th Rifleman]

Personally I prefer the Saladin and Scimitar turrets as fitted to some M113s here in Australia. How can you go wrong with a 76mm cannon on an APC? :p

We did the same thing with the FV432 back in the day, slapped a 30mm cannon turret on top.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

We did the same thing with the FV432 back in the day, slapped a 30mm cannon turret on top.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/europe/united_kingdom/light_armoured/fv432_30mm_gun/pictures/FV432_30mm_gun_tracked_armoured_infantry_fighting_ combat_vehicle_British_Army_United_Kingdom_001.jpg

[James Langham]

http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/europe/united_kingdom/light_armoured/fv432_30mm_gun/pictures/FV432_30mm_gun_tracked_armoured_infantry_fighting_ combat_vehicle_British_Army_United_Kingdom_001.jpg

These were issued to the British part of the Berlin Brigade. In real life they have now been sold off and are used for vehicle paintball - there is an article somewhere on the BBC News site.

[dragoon500ly]

You know, for an excellent source of home built armored vehicles that worked, you may want to reference the 1948 Israeli-Arab War.

Faced with an inability to acquire modern armor (although the Israelis did steal a Comet tank and several Daimler armored cars), most of what they used were standard trucks fitted with sandwich armor. Faced with a shortage of decent armor plate, the Israelis used boiler plate welded to the frame of the vehicle, then then welded another set of boiler plate 2-3 inches out and filled the space with a wide variety of material, everything from gravel to rubber to concrete to wood to tile. It was crude, anything larger than small arms would penetrate, but since most of the Arabs had few, if any, antitank weapons, it worked.

As the war progressed, it would be very likely that the various commanders would horde their remaining stocks of ATGMs for real emergencies. So I can see the possibility of ad hoc sandwich armored vehicles returning.....

[Rockwolf66]

You know, for an excellent source of home built armored vehicles that worked, you may want to reference the 1948 Israeli-Arab War.

Faced with an inability to acquire modern armor (although the Israelis did steal a Comet tank and several Daimler armored cars), most of what they used were standard trucks fitted with sandwich armor. Faced with a shortage of decent armor plate, the Israelis used boiler plate welded to the frame of the vehicle, then then welded another set of boiler plate 2-3 inches out and filled the space with a wide variety of material, everything from gravel to rubber to concrete to wood to tile. It was crude, anything larger than small arms would penetrate, but since most of the Arabs had few, if any, antitank weapons, it worked.

As the war progressed, it would be very likely that the various commanders would horde their remaining stocks of ATGMs for real emergencies. So I can see the possibility of ad hoc sandwich armored vehicles returning.....

Something like This (http://www.businessinsider.com/check-out-the-newest-weapons-innovation-from-mexicos-drug-cartels-2011-5)

Yeah the drug gangs of northern Mexico are building armored combat vehicles.

[schnickelfritz]

It's worth noting the books only detail those nuclear targets which received 250 kilotonnes or more. This essentially rules out almost every sub launched missile and possibly even aircraft delivered weapons as well.

So it's very possible, even probable that what is shown on the maps and in the books is just a small percentage of actual strikes.


I agree that it seems against basic military common sense not to attack the TACOM sites. They most likely were on the target list. Unfortunately, their destruction or survival was never discussed except for the Lima Tank Plant in Challenge Magazine, which survived due to a near miss.

My argument is that by the post-TDM period, the delivery methods may have been destroyed, the number of warheads may have dropped due to losses necessitating their targeting having been changed, or that those in the USSR giving the word may have either had tired of the destruction or been incapacitated themselves, all through a variety of ways.

It could be as simple as a Frigate in the Gulf making a lucky discovery of a SLCM carrying Victor III with the weapons to neutralize Anniston (and/or Rock Island) and putting it on the bottom with a pair of Mark 48's in a chance encounter.

My point is that in the canon material, except for Lima, it isn't stated either way, on the hit lists or in any narrative material that I've ever seen, and I remember ordering Howling Wilderness new from the local comic shop....and being rather disappointed with what I got. Does it really imbalance your average T2K campaign to have them partially/completely intact? I really can't see how. Even if intact, the federal covernment won't have the energy, raw materials, or bodies to run the plants for years to come. They will, however, be rather instrumental in rebuilding the US military.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I alwasy had a more literal interpetation of the target list for the USA proper. I do remember that only attacks of a certain size where listed but ran on the assumption that tonnages less than 250k were reserved for battlefields. Meaning most of them were smaller tacticals.

The plant in San Jose most certainly could be hit by a MIRV from the Benecia attacks but in my mind and the material I created it was just the refineries that were hit.

I had mulled around the idea of a Soviet submarine attackign the plant with a conventional cruise missiles. Hit the plant at lunch time or a shift change and you'd kill a lot of employees and do some good damage. Although in none of the source material did I ever follow up with the idea.



My guess is the factory was actually a primary target rather than the city itself. Any damage to the city would probably be either a byproduct of the attack on the M113 factory, from another warhead in the MIRV, or both.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Wow, this thread is still going in fits and starts (rather like post TDM armor production would! ha!)

Interesting to note that AAI is located in Hunt Valley, MD. AAI is the primary producer of the RDF/LT (aka "LAV-75"). If Baltimore survived there's a chance some LAV75s could still be rolled out with remaining parts (I'm sure like all defense contracting, sub-assemblies were spread out to hell and gone).

Of course DC is a mere 60 miles away, that could make things impossible.

The LAV family is primarily manufactured at GDLS-Canada; dunno how bad Canada got pasted, nor where the factory for that would have been.

FMC is in Santa Clara so...yeah, no more M113s or Bradleys. Santa Clara is just south of the Bay and everything up that way gets hit pretty bad.

I think for the first 25 or 30 years after the war the best bet would be to keep what you have running, simplify, and when you absolutely positively need a "new" vehicle you put forth a massive effort to cobble one together out of spares.

(Of course my own non-canon Coming Home scenario would see a bunch of AFVs being taken back home - still a bunch left in Germany, too, mind.)