M59 APC?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

While I realize the vast majority were blown up as targets, recycled for razor blades and what-have-you, I wonder if of the 6300+ M59s if there'd be a significant number of them left that in a pinch they'd be pressed back into service (or even if there were any at all).

I've got this crazy idea for an "M59A1 Tank Destroyer" with that Dragon nee Jav/Tankbreaker M175 mount got posted up in the LAV-75 thread...

[pmulcahy11b]

I have the M59 on my site -- you could work from there. And let us know how it came out!

[Raellus]

I think that you would mostly see reactivated M59s stateside but sure, why not.

[pmulcahy11b]

While I realize the vast majority were blown up as targets, recycled for razor blades and what-have-you, I wonder if of the 6300+ M59s if there'd be a significant number of them left that in a pinch they'd be pressed back into service (or even if there were any at all).


Also remember that the US wasn't the only country that used the M59 -- The Turks, and I think the Greeks and South Koreans used good numbers of them. It could put some into the European Theater.

[copeab]

Also remember that the US wasn't the only country that used the M59 -- The Turks, and I think the Greeks and South Koreans used good numbers of them. It could put some into the European Theater.

According to Wiki, South Vietnam was the third largest user (after the US and Turkey), followed by Brazil. South Korea didn't get any.

[pmulcahy11b]

According to Wiki, South Vietnam was the third largest user (after the US and Turkey), followed by Brazil. South Korea didn't get any.

I was working from the dim recesses of my memory; my bad.

[copeab]

I was working from the dim recesses of my memory; my bad.

It's also possible Wiki is wrong ;)

[Targan]

It's also possible Wiki is wrong ;)

Blasphemer! :D

[kalos72]

Where would you STORE 6000 M59's anyways? :)

[Abbott Shaull]

Where would you STORE 6000 M59's anyways? :)

Wow first I heard of these things. Hmmm. If 6k were in storage, and the way they made spare parts, and if they were mothballed correctly. That would be lot of APC to turn some of the Light units into mobile units, providing they could get fuel....

[Abbott Shaull]

Where would you STORE 6000 M59's anyways? :)

In the vastness of Military Bases and other warehouses almost anyplace a creative GM would like.

On the other hand, would realistically. It hard to say...

[copeab]

Where would you STORE 6000 M59's anyways? :)

It's possible that the 6K+ APCs were the total production run; the 3,200 or so used by other countries were included in this total, so the US was left with only around 3K to mothball, scrap or shoot up.

[copeab]

In the vastness of Military Bases and other warehouses almost anyplace a creative GM would like.


The US Army lost this (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2074/T-28-3.1.jpg) in the woods for 30 years, so anything is possible ;)

[dragoon500ly]

The US Army lost this (http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2074/T-28-3.1.jpg) in the woods for 30 years, so anything is possible ;)

Actually, the story is even more funny...

What you are looking at is the Number 3 pilot model of the T-95 Gun Motor Carriage...as the Allies were closing in on Germany back in WWII, the was a great deal of concern about the German West Wall fortifications so the Ordnance Department designed an "American Uber Tank". Design work kicked off in April 1944 and the first model was completed in September 1945. With the surrender of Japan, the production order was cut back to two pilot models (wait for it). Testing of the pilot models ran through October 1947 with the Number 2 pilot model being destroyed in a fire during a trial run.

The T-95 GMC was the largest American AFV design of the war, with a combat weight of 190,000lbs! It was to carry a eight man crew (TC, driver, co-driver and five man gun crew. Length overall was 36ft 6in, with a height of 9ft 4in and a width of 14ft 5in. Each of the track units is 19.5in wide.

Armament is the T5E1 105mm gun with a secondary M-2HB machinegun. Armor Thickness ranged from 300mm to 25mm, with the mantlet of the gun, a whopping 12 inches thick!.

The engine is a Ford V-8 gasoline engine developing 410hp, giving the T-95 the blazing top speed of 8mph and a road range of 100 miles.

One of the unusual features of the T-95 is that each track assembly was atwin unit of HVSS supension, the outer set could be detached and removed to reduce the vehicle's weight and width for transportation. The two detached units could then be linked together and towed behind the vehicle.

Now for the rest of the story...

The official records list two pilot models, one destroyed by a fire at Aberdeen Proving Grounds and the second being scrapped. Back in 1973 an old set of warehouses was being torn down at Fort Knox, when a bulldozer knocked down one wall, the driver was amazed to come face to face with the muzzle of the tank cannon. It turns out that a third pilot model had been built and had been shipped to Fort Knox for troop training. It had been parked in the warehouse and in the mass confusion of de-mobilization after the end of the war...had been quietly forgotten....

[TiggerCCW UK]

That would make an awesome find for a group of PC's - "Lets loot this warehouse, probably nothin in it but...." :D:D

[Abbott Shaull]

Well you know like you and other said time and again one would be surprise how much equipment use to be stored at various warehouses on the bases, and off various bases. Include caches they all West Germany too. How would it be to go through some of the warehouse at the closed bases to see what one can find...lol

[Matt Wiser]

Has anyone considered another possible vehicle to be encountered in CONUS: namely, the M-103 heavy tank? They were retired as the M-60 came into service, but were still in storage up until the '80s. It's possible that some were...forgotten, and were found post TDM.

[HorseSoldier]

The M103s got pooled at Anniston Army Depot when retired, with a bunch getting passed out for static displays in front of area VFW halls and National Guard armories and such in the area. Could make for MilGov or New America in the area fielding them on at least a limited basis.

[dragoon500ly]

Has anyone considered another possible vehicle to be encountered in CONUS: namely, the M-103 heavy tank? They were retired as the M-60 came into service, but were still in storage up until the '80s. It's possible that some were...forgotten, and were found post TDM.

A couple of problems right off the bat...the M-103 750hp powerplant was a gasoline engine and was a source of endless problems (as well as the occasional fire). The 120mm main gun IS NOT compatiable with the 120mm cannon of the M-1A1. The T53 120mm cannon is a modification of the WWII 120mm antiaircraft gun, the round for this is actual some 8 inches longer than the M-1A1s round.

On the other hand, the M-47 and M-48 designs are still present in various stockpiles and the 90mm ammunition is still produced for foreign sales.

[dragoon500ly]

Well you know like you and other said time and again one would be surprise how much equipment use to be stored at various warehouses on the bases, and off various bases. Include caches they all West Germany too. How would it be to go through some of the warehouse at the closed bases to see what one can find...lol

There were always stories of older, underground warehouses on most major military bases. These held stockpiles for equipment, weapons and ammunition, intended for resupply of the base in the event of a nuclear war. These were supposed to have been emptied out in the 1970s-80s and officially deactived. Still, one wonders....

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'm going to try and sketch up a (non canon obviously) "M59's in action". Heck there might even be enough to get down to help the JMC in Central Florida :D

[Abbott Shaull]

There were always stories of older, underground warehouses on most major military bases. These held stockpiles for equipment, weapons and ammunition, intended for resupply of the base in the event of a nuclear war. These were supposed to have been emptied out in the 1970s-80s and officially deactived. Still, one wonders....

LOL. Yeah that has always been an unspoken worry of some of the families in places like K.I. Sawyer AFB.

We both know with the keeping of record on paper, things got lost way too easily.

I often wonder about the stories of small undisclosed caches that one could find on either side of the Iron Curtain. In the case of West Germany, it could be small cache for either side, since it was quite common for Soviet/Pact Officers to pose as truck drivers making deliveries or picking up goods in areas they would be expected to lead troops in. Diving the same roads they might one day move troops over. Many of the ones I have heard stories were small affair in West Germany, maybe able to resupply a cut off Platoon or Company. For the NATO side this was done for troops who were cut off from supply lines.

While on the Pact side many of these cache would of been put emplace by Commanders who felt they may have encounter or two before they got to the border or shortly after crossing it. These forward supply caches would mean their forward units wouldn't have to entirely rely on supplies coming from their bases. Or once they had been dropped off their first supply to front line units, they would go to these points for prompt turn around of replacement.

Just some thoughts.

Abbott

[Matt Wiser]

If the M-103s are in storage, then certainly parts and main gun ammo are as well. FYI the USMC had theirs stored at the USMC Logistics Base in Barstow, CA, before they were used as targets or donated for museum display.

[HorseSoldier]

The ones I saw at Anniston probably came from Barstow then, on their way to becoming reefs down in the Florida keys. Circa 2004 or so they also had about a brigade of Sheridans in a yard waiting for demilling into reefs or whatever also. A lot of those had bumper numbers making them Panama vets, plus some stuff that looked like it'd seen the rougher side of NTC and JRTC.

[dragoon500ly]

Like it has been shown many times on this forum; Uncle Sam stores a lot of equipment and just lets it set. Doesn't mean that it is in servicible condition. There is one thing to watch for on tanks; if the tank is in servicable condition and has been mothballed, critical equipment is pulled from the interior, packaged in a dehumidifer containers and then stored in a wooden, plastic lined crate bolted onto the back deck, and usually has a tarp in place, covering the turret hatches and most of the container.

If the vehicle is stored in a vehicle park, without the container on the back deck...its very likely that the interior has been stripped of anything useable and its waiting on disposal, either as a reef, or for a smelter.

A comment was posted stating that ammunition for a M-103 would be available...well, the correct answer is both yes and no. Ammunition degrades over time, as the propellent approaches the end of its service life (roughly 15 years with modern propellent), it is sent back to an ammo factory for refurbishment or disposal. Back in the 60s and 70s, you certainly could find 120mm tank ammo. But by the 80s and 90s, most of it had been disposed of or dearmed and used for museum displays; the Patton Museum has a decent selection of demilled ammo that they pull out on occasion, and, of course, Aberdeen Proving Grounds has probably the best selection.

Another thing that people overlook is the museum/static display vehicles, please rest assured that for the most part, what you have is a stripped vehicle, often missing critical equipment such as the engine pack. Next time you see one, stand off to the side and see if the tail end is noticeably higher than the bow of the tank, if it is, then the pack is missing. My local National Guard Armory has an M-60A3 on display, won a dinner at TGI Fridays when I proved that one was missing its pack, breechblock and fire control equipment!

[Abbott Shaull]

Like it has been shown many times on this forum; Uncle Sam stores a lot of equipment and just lets it set. Doesn't mean that it is in servicible condition. There is one thing to watch for on tanks; if the tank is in servicable condition and has been mothballed, critical equipment is pulled from the interior, packaged in a dehumidifer containers and then stored in a wooden, plastic lined crate bolted onto the back deck, and usually has a tarp in place, covering the turret hatches and most of the container.

If the vehicle is stored in a vehicle park, without the container on the back deck...its very likely that the interior has been stripped of anything useable and its waiting on disposal, either as a reef, or for a smelter.

A comment was posted stating that ammunition for a M-103 would be available...well, the correct answer is both yes and no. Ammunition degrades over time, as the propellent approaches the end of its service life (roughly 15 years with modern propellent), it is sent back to an ammo factory for refurbishment or disposal. Back in the 60s and 70s, you certainly could find 120mm tank ammo. But by the 80s and 90s, most of it had been disposed of or dearmed and used for museum displays; the Patton Museum has a decent selection of demilled ammo that they pull out on occasion, and, of course, Aberdeen Proving Grounds has probably the best selection.

Another thing that people overlook is the museum/static display vehicles, please rest assured that for the most part, what you have is a stripped vehicle, often missing critical equipment such as the engine pack. Next time you see one, stand off to the side and see if the tail end is noticeably higher than the bow of the tank, if it is, then the pack is missing. My local National Guard Armory has an M-60A3 on display, won a dinner at TGI Fridays when I proved that one was missing its pack, breechblock and fire control equipment!

Yeah but some idiot will find rounds that is unstable and try to use it...lol

[HorseSoldier]

Places with enough time and resources might be able to rig up one offs, or even small production runs, of reactivated armor using stuff and skills available to them -- being able to bluff with, say, a platoon of tanks defending your town (museum piece M26s and M47s with diesel truck engines shoe horned into them in place of standard engines, no main gun ammo but no optics either, and maybe rigged up to turn the main gun into a launcher for rocket/pipe bomb ordnance made out of PVC, black powder, and optimism) might do a lot to keep the local chapter of Hells Angels at bay. More observant PCs might wonder why the tanks in question seem to max out at 5-10 miles per hour and other little clues that something isn't quite adding up . . .

[raketenjagdpanzer]

So, briefly, here's the write-up for the M59A1.

From 1996, as stocks of M2s, LAVs, and even the venerable M113 began to dwindle and production ramp-up was still lagging behind, the US Army was authorized to break some nnn M59 Armored Personnel Carriers out of long-term storage for use on the battlefields of Europe and the mideast. Some nnn were considered too damaged to rebuild and use, leaving conservatively some nnn for refurbishing at Anniston Army Depot, Fort Knox, and other locations.

The battlefield environment had changed radically since the M59's introduction, and subsequently the vehicle was deemed largely unsuited to anything other than support roles. M59s began their second lives fulfilling ammunition haulers, ambulances, command vehicles and other rear-echelon duties. Some n were deployed to Europe, with another n going to the mideast.

The Thanksgiving Day Massacre left the United States with very little sealift capability, and what airlift was left was concentrated on relief effort and executive relocation in the CONUS. Consequently, the bulk of the M59s remained in the US.

Modification of the M59 brought the units up to the new designated M59A1 standard:

Passive IR vision for driver and commander
Overpressure A/C system for N/B/C environment
Cage or Slat type applique armor for protection against shaped charges.
Inclusion of new MIL-STD 1553 data bus systems for onboard electronics (-A2 command variants and -A3 tank destroyer (see below) only).

The M59A3, despite being a near post-TDM design based on a half-century old armored vehicle represented an ingenious technological leap. Already, vehicles were using systems like IVIS to coordinate fire and maneuver, and a wireless data-link system was build into the data bus which could be plugged in to the Tankbreaker siting system (now built into the hull of the M59A3) via standard IEE-488 data connection. This allowed local hand-off of sighting data from vehicle to vehicle: if one vehicle had line of sight and another with a ready round didn't, the sighting vehicle could push data to it's local companion who could then fire a "cold" shot which would track and acquire after launch.

If the -A3 had serious disadvantages they were this: the gunner had to stand in the commander's cupola and fire the Tankbreaker while exposed, as the missile launcher and gunner's sighting system were mounted on an M175 rail. This led to Soviet sniper teams being dispatched for "Boar hunting" missions ("Boar" or "хряк" was the Soviet nickname for the large, ungainly but dangerous M59A3) where Tankbreaker gunners were targeted immediately when the M59A3 would appear. Additionally, due to the location of the commander's sight for the Tankbreaker, the Rhino was poor in ambush, as the sight was low enough on the hull to restrict use in enfilade.

Despite the continuation of the war in the European theater, there was still a need for armored vehicles stateside as well: Division Cuba was a serious threat in Texas, and Soviet divisions were still trying to push through Alaska. N M59A2 "Rhino" tank destroyers were deployed to great effect in both theaters; one account is that a pair of Rhinos, along with three LAV-25s from the 1st Texas Brigade engaged a Soviet/Cuban motor rifle company at full strength and achieved a 4:1 kill ratio, holding a key bridge near Arlen, Texas. Commander Henry Rutherford Hill received the Texas Star and the Distinguished Service Cross for his actions; his gunner, William "Wild Bill" Dauterive personally dispatched the MRC's command platoon, getting off six Tankbreaker shots in just over ninety seconds.

(N=I don't have actual numbers in mind yet)

[Legbreaker]

Post nuke I rather doubt there'd be any ability to install electronics into the vehicle.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Post nuke I rather doubt there'd be any ability to install electronics into the vehicle.

Good point.

[HorseSoldier]

I can't see them being resurrected pre-TDM for active service. M113s were available in sufficient quantity that we'd given them to half the Free World as well as our own use.

Post-TDM as things go pear shaped, I could see them getting dusted off for issue to CONUS forces to try and give US troops doing internal security work some sort of AFVs as the security situation deteriorates.

[Abbott Shaull]

I can't see them being resurrected pre-TDM for active service. M113s were available in sufficient quantity that we'd given them to half the Free World as well as our own use.

Post-TDM as things go pear shaped, I could see them getting dusted off for issue to CONUS forces to try and give US troops doing internal security work some sort of AFVs as the security situation deteriorates.

One could see them going to lot of the Reserve Divisions in limited numbers to help give them little more fighting power than a hand full of SUVs and Pickups and the few HMMWVs they would have.

[HorseSoldier]

Exactly -- I could see someone wanting to issue them to the late war USAR divisions, maybe to fill out a DivCav squadron. Some tanks for gun power would be nice, too, in the Cav squadron or elsewhere, but maybe M59s with 106 recoilless rifles would be adequate for CONUS internal security. Keeping them all stateside would help with some really sketchy logistics issues.

[Abbott Shaull]

Exactly -- I could see someone wanting to issue them to the late war USAR divisions, maybe to fill out a DivCav squadron. Some tanks for gun power would be nice, too, in the Cav squadron or elsewhere, but maybe M59s with 106 recoilless rifles would be adequate for CONUS internal security. Keeping them all stateside would help with some really sketchy logistics issues.

Actually I see them being used much like the Aphib tractors are used in the Marine Division. They are place in Battalion where Driver and Commanders with Maintenance personnel in Battalion and they are farmed out to the troops as needed. Yeah, it brings up some difficulty when a unit gets their turn to play the dismount element, but it will get them mobile.

I have always been of the thought that even with the Light Infantry Division of the National Guard and Regular units with the exception of the 82nd and 101st would of had one Brigade that would have been Motorized at least.

The other 6 Battalions - Task Force would probably have enough transport to have one platoon up to one Company that can be made motorized. While at with Division level asset they would be able to get one full task force up to another one that can be moved from place to place in hurry if needed.

Let's face it by 2000 many of the former Mechanized and Armor Divisions will more than likely have something similar to WWII Rifle regiment or two, in other words 3 or more Rifle Battalion/Task Forces that help them control their area. On the same token the Light Infantry Divisions will have transformed one Brigade into mobile Brigade that not tied down too much and can be used as Rapid Reaction Force. By 2000 many of the Divisions level units that take to the field will be a collection of mobile Brigades from several Division while the Light Brigade stay behind to protect and watch over the crops the unit needs in the future.

Just some thoughts...

[HorseSoldier]

I was thinking basically recreating the Vietnam era cav squadron that provided QRF/striking power/etc for the infantry divisions of the era. Those units included pretty robust infantry/dismount strength compared to the M1/M3 armored cav combo these days.

Kangaroo carriers would definitely be another option, the main downside to that approach being that it doesn't work really well and there's all sorts of coordination/familiarity issues when people try to use it for anything more than just mobility. Even if the preference was to focus on mechanizing infantry, I think the preferred course of action would be to build a mech battalion (or whatever resources allowed) rather than trying to pair foot infantry with carriers on the fly for pretty delicate and complicated missions.