Just In: Osama is dead [Archive]

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pmulcahy11b

05-01-2011, 10:08 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

Front of the site.

NBC News is saying that it was a US military operation in Northern Pakistan and we have his body.

Cdnwolf

05-01-2011, 10:21 PM

Just hope its not one of his doubles...

Legbreaker

05-01-2011, 10:23 PM

And about bloody time too!

Abbott Shaull

05-01-2011, 10:25 PM

Yeah, and he was in the suburbs of the Capital of Pakistan. Thanks you for being one of our Allies...NOT!

Now we will see his group splinter into couple groups and one will powerful enough to give us black eye once this settles down...

Targan

05-01-2011, 10:37 PM

I'm a government media monitor... guess which direction the rest of my working day just went? Frantic alerts to the Premier and government ministers going out in all directions.

I hope that bin Laden died in pain. In a perfect world there would have been a wet ops specialist kneeling on his chest and bitch-slapping him as he faded to black.

Panther Al

05-01-2011, 11:13 PM

From what I am hearing, we got intel in august of last year he hangs out where we got him. The Paki military runs a academy there. The call was made to send in Spec Ops, we did not tell the government about it (A good idea since the politicians like the Taliban) but did tell selected members of the Paki military. The compound went apeshit when they saw the helo's sweep in (As they should considering who they was protecting), and during the battle, a Paki Helo was shot down. DNA match confirms we got him.

At least, thats what I have gleaned from the media so far.

My analysis so far: Massive bump in morale accross the board, Obama takes credit (I will admit that he does deserve some for keeping the hunt alive in spite of what he said he would do during his campaign), and AQ goes apeshit: The loss of leadership from OBL will be felt, but it won't cripple AQ. Expect an uptick in activity over the next two years.

Legbreaker

05-01-2011, 11:21 PM

DNA match confirms we got him.
Umm, doesn't that take more than five minutes to run...?

Panther Al

05-01-2011, 11:22 PM

We got him a few days ago according to reports, we just now officially confirmed that it was him.

And it looks like the SEAL's are gonna be insufferable now.

Ramjam

05-01-2011, 11:53 PM

All I can say is thank fuck for that.

And I hope the bastard burns in hell.

(Please excuse my language but after 10 yrs of losing friends it's about time).

TiggerCCW UK

05-01-2011, 11:58 PM

Good result.

Panther Al

05-01-2011, 11:59 PM

Indeed. As a friend said: Best Birthday Present Ever.

More info, seems the initial reports of Paki involvement was wrong, there was none at all, not even any response from the local paki authorities to the 40 minute fire-fight. The lost helo mechanicaled on the way in, which had to raise the pucker factor.

raketenjagdpanzer

05-02-2011, 12:50 AM

A couple of thoughts at this late hour:

I wouldn't be surprised if the Pakistanis turned him out: just a week or two back we told them no more unrestricted drone flights over their borders. They were probably sick and tired of the heightened AQ presence in Pakistan caused by OBL being there which was drawing in more drones and causing pressure on the government.

As bad as Pakistan can be when it comes to Islamic conservatism, there's a bunch of those tribal folks who want nothing, nada, zip to do with the Taliban and their style of fundamentalism.

Second, I can't help but think the guy had "dead man switch" operations in place, to wit: "Hey, if you find out I've been martyred by the Americans, initiate these attacks."

I think things are about to get really, really sticky for a while. I just hope I'm wrong.

Webstral

05-02-2011, 01:16 AM

Kicking a beehive generally produces an immediate if temporary negative reaction, even if the queen dies.

Webstral

Matt Wiser

05-02-2011, 01:46 AM

About bloody time. Goodbye and good riddance to UBL. Now that Osama is rooming with Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Saddam, Milosevic, and Khomeni, let's find Ayman Al-Zwahari, AQ's #2-and presumably now #1, and liquidate him as well.

Bravo Zulu to all involved in the op, and glad there were no friendly casualties.

Arrissen

05-02-2011, 02:32 AM

Ding dong the witch is dead!

dragoon500ly

05-02-2011, 05:03 AM

Its been a long hunt for a piece of crap; but the SEALs pulled it off! Congrats to those who went in and capped OBL, to those who have tracked him down, its been a long run but WELL DONE!!!

Now, we have to buckle down and hunt down the rest of these animals and put them down as well!

Fusilier

05-02-2011, 08:25 AM

We got him a few days ago according to reports, we just now officially confirmed that it was him.

Can you share these reports you are referring to?

95th Rifleman

05-02-2011, 08:38 AM

Now if somebody would kill Gerry Adams, all my dreams would come true in one week.

Fusilier

05-02-2011, 08:41 AM

Now if somebody would kill Gerry Adams, all my dreams would come true in one week.

I'm sure if the money was put up, someone would do it.

Cdnwolf

05-02-2011, 10:38 AM

Now the conspiracy theories come out.... why dump the body at sea? Why no attempt to take him alive (shoot to kill order from media reports)... worlds fastest DNA results also...

Makes more sense to keep him alive and drain him of intel first....

Cdnwolf

05-02-2011, 10:39 AM

Now if somebody would kill Gerry Adams, all my dreams would come true in one week.

A few people would add George W to that list...

Fusilier

05-02-2011, 10:44 AM

Now the conspiracy theories come out.... why dump the body at sea? Why no attempt to take him alive (shoot to kill order from media reports)... worlds fastest DNA results also... ....

Oh Christ, please don't tell me that crap has started already. All of those things can be easily explained.

Makes more sense to keep him alive and drain him of intel first....

Including why it doesn't make more sense to do that.

TiggerCCW UK

05-02-2011, 11:04 AM

Now if somebody would kill Gerry Adams, all my dreams would come true in one week.

Seems a bit harsh to be comparing Adams to Bin Laden. While I'm far from a fan of the Republicans, at least Adams has moved forward in a peaceful manner and is genuinely trying to improve the situation here.

Wow, never thought I'd see me defending a provie...

raketenjagdpanzer

05-02-2011, 01:02 PM

James Langham

05-02-2011, 01:14 PM

As far as why no attempt to take him alive...according to reports they DID - he was given the option to surrender and be taken in to custody and he refused.

Now...how he refused, what the circumstances were...that's what I want to know. Was he holding a gun (unlikely) or did he make a move like he had a suicide belt on or the like? Or did he just say "No" when told to lie down and freeze?

Frankly, I don't care. Also, I don't think he'd give ANY information up.

The cynic in me says a live prisoner means the likelihood of hostages being taken... Of course the really interesting bit would have been the lawyer's bills!!!!

Of course the really big cynic in me says that they have SAID that he is dead...oh and look no body to prove it! (There are still rumours the Israelis did exactly that at Entebbe.)

Mohoender

05-02-2011, 01:38 PM

Ok Bin Laden is dead and I won't say I'm sad about it but I don't see anything to celebrate here. I'll be celebrating only when someone will declare on TV that this war is over.

We still have plenty of soldiers in Afghanistan, fighting and dying everyday. People keep dying in Iraq not to remind you of the Marakech bombing that took place only 48 hours ago. I have more thoughts about those who died there that about a f... execution of a Bin whatever be.

We might have won a battle (a tiny one) but it doesn't seem to me that victory is at hand and I prefer to turn my thinking toward those fighting and dying far away from Islamabad.

In addition, if that's a victory, it is one we have not so many reason to be proud of. The Nazis had been brought to trial at Nuremberg (Hitler had commited suicide and the suicide of Goering had been felt has a major failure. US authorities who had felt so were right). General Tojo was condemned. The Serbian leaders had been brought to trial as well. Laurent Gbagbo is currently under arrest. The Khmers had been brought to trial as well and even Saddam Hussein had been trialed (It can be critisized but it was a trial nonetheless). Bin laden, however, will remain a thorn in our back and questions will not wait long before being raised (actually it's already the case). I'm no more supportive of the french aircrafts targetting Khadaffi.

Simply from a 5 minutes quick reading I have seen that 8 US troops had been killed last week by an Afghan pilot, that a 12 years old child had detonated the bomb it carried only yesterday (I can help it but I feel as sad for this kid as i do for his victims). Sorry but there is really nothing to celebrate right now. I'll celebrate when a friend of mine currently editing a monthly paper on the french army will not write any more article entitled "In Memoriam".:(

Although I have not seen any celebration on this forum, the one I saw in US are only gross and disgusting. Soldiers in the fields and their families can rightfully feel relief about this news but celebrating it as our forfathers had celebrated the end of ww1 or ww2 is simply disrespect.

pmulcahy11b

05-02-2011, 02:02 PM

Now the conspiracy theories come out.... why dump the body at sea? Why no attempt to take him alive (shoot to kill order from media reports)... worlds fastest DNA results also...

I think that a captured Bin Laden would generate a lot more revenge and extortion-type terrorism than a dead Bin Laden. Don't have an answer for the quick DNA results, except for years of preparation and technology increase that may only be available to the highest levels of government (and those working directly with them).

headquarters

05-02-2011, 02:18 PM

I think that a captured Bin Laden would generate a lot more revenge and extortion-type terrorism than a dead Bin Laden. Don't have an answer for the quick DNA results, except for years of preparation and technology increase that may only be available to the highest levels of government (and those working directly with them).

..any administrations worst nightmare.

The media circus
the trials - with countless domestic and international rows on legal issues
the uprisings and demonstrations against the US
the terryfying possibility that something could go wrong and Osama twists the tale..implicating people..upsetting the balance..

I dont know. Probably a more prudent, but brutal way to end it like that. Its no secret that the US -pretty much everybody- wanted him dead.

Far better to just serve up the present and then move like Obama did.

copeab

05-02-2011, 05:00 PM

The one thing I am celebrating is that this killed the royal wedding coverage on American TV. Even the Alabama tornadoes couldn't preempt the royal wedding coverage ...

Legbreaker

05-02-2011, 05:50 PM

I'm with Mo on this. Yes it's good he's been found and ended, but he was just one small and almost insignificant cog in an relatively massive machine. Some sources state that he wasn't even involved in AQ in a significant role since the 9th of September 2001.
Basically he was a figurehead, one head of the hydra which will soon be replaced.

There's very little here to celebrate in my opinion, nothing until the region is stable, and anyone willing to kill without fear of the consequences of an effective law and order system is brought low.

The death of OBL is little more than a morale boost for the west and a probable martyr and rallying point for the insurgents and terrorists. There WILL be organised reprisals against the Americans and allies. May not happen today, but it will happen within the next 12-24 months.

Targan

05-02-2011, 07:04 PM

A few people would add George W to that list...

Indeed.

Cdnwolf

05-02-2011, 08:10 PM

I totally agree with Moh....

But how about this scenario.... if the world thinks you are dead... and you are held hidden in some safehouse... imagine the techniques they will employ to get you to talk... and then just dump your body afterwards...

pmulcahy11b

05-02-2011, 08:26 PM

The one thing I am celebrating is that this killed the royal wedding coverage on American TV. Even the Alabama tornadoes couldn't preempt the royal wedding coverage ...

I've been sick as hell since Wednesday night -- been bed most of the time. I can't help but think the Royal Wedding coverage didn't help with that...:)

Targan

05-02-2011, 08:30 PM

I've been sick as hell since Wednesday night -- been bed most of the time. I can't help but think the Royal Wedding coverage didn't help with that...:)

There were some bright moments in the royal wedding coverage... Pippa Middleton's arse for instance. Very spankable.

Mohoender

05-03-2011, 12:03 AM

There were some bright moments in the royal wedding coverage... Pippa Middleton's arse for instance. Very spankable.

I agree and I think the entire world does. Even my wife thinks so.:D

Legbreaker

05-03-2011, 01:24 AM

Pippa Middleton's arse for instance. Very spankable.
Damn! I missed that!
*searches net for pics*
:p

Ramjam

05-03-2011, 03:42 AM

I think everybody the world over is happy that OBL's rightful end put a stop to the Royal wedding stories. And that includes the couple involved.

And as for Pippa's dress. I'm just glad I wasn't performing the wedding service. My eyes would be fixed on her and my tongue on the floor.

Quick change of subject I think.

Ok, back to OBL. Yes there will be more attacks in his names as a means to reveage him butwith all the attacks we've had over the last 10 years since 9/11 who can say we wouldn't have anymore attacks if he was still alive.

I very much doubt this war on terror will be over in my life time (I'm pushing 40 now), but if in one day more moons down the road if can bring a more peaceful world than surely the it's worth it in the long run.

Mohoender

05-03-2011, 04:49 AM

Ok, back to OBL.

Why? She is a much better subject.:evilgrinb

Mahatatain

05-03-2011, 10:41 AM

I'm with Mo on this. Yes it's good he's been found and ended, but he was just one small and almost insignificant cog in an relatively massive machine. Some sources state that he wasn't even involved in AQ in a significant role since the 9th of September 2001.
Basically he was a figurehead, one head of the hydra which will soon be replaced.

While I agree with you that OBL has been uninvolved in AQs operations for quite a number of years (and it's more of an ideology than a structured movement anyway) there are suggestions that with his death (and with the death of Sheikh Sa'id about a year ago) that AQ will find it significantly more difficult to raise funds. Therefore his loss is significant to AQ, though not as much as certain elements of the western media would have you believe!

Have a look at the following article:

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2011/05/02/pm-what-bin-ladens-death-means-for-future-financing-against-the-war-on-terror/

Mahatatain

05-03-2011, 10:45 AM

Why? She is a much better subject.:evilgrinb
Just for those who've somehow missed Pippa Middleton....

http://weddingbellsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/pippa-middleton-dress.jpg

(that's the best photo I can access on my work computer! :D)

dragoon500ly

05-03-2011, 10:50 AM

Ah Pippa! Such a lovely dress....and all I can think about is....what was underneath? :evilgrinb

pmulcahy11b

05-03-2011, 11:30 AM

There were some bright moments in the royal wedding coverage... Pippa Middleton's arse for instance. Very spankable.

One commentator called her "the hottest maid-of-honor in the world."

Mohoender

05-03-2011, 12:43 PM

One commentator called her "the hottest maid-of-honor in the world."

Not only one. A french commentator made almost the same statement.;)

Panther Al

05-03-2011, 03:13 PM

To push it slightly back on track... er... *looks at pics* um... Yeah, back on track. Yeah.

Anyways, dunno who all reads the The Whiteboard, but the best joke I have heard yet about it was told there:

Refering to the burial at sea, the real reason is they didn't want Elton John showing up and singing "A sandal in the Bin.."

dragoon500ly

05-03-2011, 05:20 PM

Reference to OBL's burial at sea.....I wonder who signed off on the environmental impact statement?

Such a lovely...err dress!!!!

95th Rifleman

05-03-2011, 05:46 PM

One commentator called her "the hottest maid-of-honor in the world."

I bet Harry has an interest

Tegyrius

05-03-2011, 05:57 PM

Reference to OBL's burial at sea.....I wonder who signed off on the environmental impact statement?

Don't worry. The remains dispersed pretty quickly once the sharks smelled the bourbon-infused bacon shroud.

- C.

Cdnwolf

05-04-2011, 08:17 AM

I bet Harry has an interest

Made Harry's date look frumpy! And did you see that stupid hat that Princess Beatrice was wearing... wtf!!

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/2011/04/113264555_a_l.jpg

Legbreaker

05-04-2011, 09:03 AM

I heard one person comment that it looks like a toilet seat...

Targan

05-04-2011, 09:21 AM

And did you see that stupid hat that Princess Beatrice was wearing... wtf!!

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/2011/04/113264555_a_l.jpg

Oh I don't know. I thought Beatrice's hat was an inspired choice. It drew attention away from her powerfully ugly face.

dragoon500ly

05-04-2011, 12:17 PM

I remember waking up after a glorious party, hung-over like you wouldn't belive....and I swear I saw that hat coming out of the wall after me!!!

The horror, the horror!

dragoon500ly

05-04-2011, 12:33 PM

Don't worry. The remains dispersed pretty quickly once the sharks smelled the bourbon-infused bacon shroud.

- C.

Won't do, just won't do....now you have PO'ed the animal rights activatists for feeding booze and jacking the cholestral count on those poor sharks!!!!

WallShadow

05-04-2011, 07:44 PM

Won't do, just won't do....now you have PO'ed the animal rights activatists for feeding booze and jacking the cholestral count on those poor sharks!!!!

Well, you could make chum by tossing his body, a dog corpse, a pig corpse, a few frogs, and some used feminine hygiene products through a Troy-bilt chipper/shredder to make everything quite unclean--for eternity.

Mohoender

05-05-2011, 01:39 AM

Well, you could make chum by tossing his body, a dog corpse, a pig corpse, a few frogs, and some used feminine hygiene products through a Troy-bilt chipper/shredder to make everything quite unclean--for eternity.

I might misunderstand what I'm reading but I have the troubling feeling that this last comment should have been avoided.:confused:

Sanjuro

05-05-2011, 10:12 AM

An anagram of Osama bin Laden is
lob da man in sea.

Then there is the new special at Starbucks, the bin Latte:

Tall, skinny, quite dark with a frothy head with two shots in it!

dragoon500ly

05-05-2011, 05:21 PM

Well, there was an ole NYPD ditty that went along the lines of...

"Twice to the chest and twice to the head and the asshole will be dead, dead, dead!"

Or to quote an old Army buddy...

"They should have flex-corded him to a satchel charge with a two-minute fuse...that would have been justice!"

On the other hand, we have a Vietnam era former SEAL...who is cheerfully accepting drinks from everyone in the office....in honor of his fellow SEALS...the SOB won't be sober enough to work until some time in mid-2012!!!!

WallShadow

05-05-2011, 08:29 PM

I might misunderstand what I'm reading but I have the troubling feeling that this last comment should have been avoided.:confused:

If the comment troubles you, Mohoender, you understand the concept behind it--to truly tick off Osama's friends in a really lasting personally and culturally-specific offensive manner. Whether it would make them think twice about ever dealing harshly again with the crazy defiling infidels--who knows, it might. Unfortunately, it would probably also make our Muslim _friends_ very unhappy too.

There are bits and pieces of about 3000 Americans that were buried with the wreckage of the result of Osama's whims, because they couldn't be separated from the ruins. They wouldn't be too happy about what happened to them, or the manner in which it happened. Some of those killed were Muslim, so OBL gains no points for being a hero of his supposed religion, which has no bearing on the actual contents of the Qu'ran.

StainlessSteelCynic

05-05-2011, 10:18 PM

If the comment troubles you, Mohoender, you understand the concept behind it--to truly tick off Osama's friends in a really lasting personally and culturally-specific offensive manner. Whether it would make them think twice about ever dealing harshly again with the crazy defiling infidels--who knows, it might. Unfortunately, it would probably also make our Muslim _friends_ very unhappy too.

There are bits and pieces of about 3000 Americans that were buried with the wreckage of the result of Osama's whims, because they couldn't be separated from the ruins. They wouldn't be too happy about what happened to them, or the manner in which it happened. Some of those killed were Muslim, so OBL gains no points for being a hero of his supposed religion, which has no bearing on the actual contents of the Qu'ran.

While I don't support the vengeance/revenge motive behind most comments about bin Laden's death (especially the dancing in the streets which just makes Americans look exactly like the badguys who danced in the streets when they displayed the bodies of US pilots shot down in Iraq), I am broadly in agreement with what WallShadow has said except for one point.
The death toll for the September 11th attacks wasn't approximately 3000 Americans. Although citizens of the USA obviously make up the majority of victims (approximately 2600) some 12% were foreign nationals. Ninety two countries lost people in those attacks, the United Kingdom alone losing over 60 people and India losing 41.

Mohoender

05-06-2011, 12:33 AM

If the comment troubles you, Mohoender, you understand the concept behind it

Obviously, yes I did. Altough my comment was in no way a defense of "Bin Machin", it simply comes from a simple fact: no reason to give way to hatred.

He is dead, fine.
May he rest in hell (I don't believe in that but fine).
About those who died from his exactions, may they rest in peace. They need your respect and consideration, not your hatred.

Mohoender

05-06-2011, 12:44 AM

The death toll for the September 11th attacks wasn't approximately 3000 Americans. Although citizens of the USA obviously make up the majority of victims (approximately 2600) some 12% were foreign nationals. Ninety two countries lost people in those attacks, the United Kingdom alone losing over 60 people and India losing 41.

Thank you for reminding that.

Panther Al

05-06-2011, 05:36 PM

Wow: Even the Wall Street Journal is cracking jokes on Bin Laden.

In the best of the web feature for Friday, at the end of it there is a discussion on an article from London's Guardian reporting that Laden overpaid for his place: The Administration claimed it was a million buck place, the local appraisers say its closer to a quarter of that.

So, the journals writer points out that:

"Assuming bin Laden made the customary 20% down payment and took out a mortgage for $800,000 in 2005, he's going to be underwater for a long time."

dragoon500ly

05-06-2011, 06:29 PM

For the WSJ....that's almost funny!

WallShadow

05-11-2011, 03:36 PM

Just hope its not one of his doubles...

That gives me an idea for a really bad film base on several classically bad films:

"They Saved Hitler's Brain and Grafted It onto Bin Laden's Body" or, "The Thing with 1 1/2 Heads", with guest appearances by Rosie Greer and Ray Milland.

We can premier it in Allahabad. It'll be a smash hit, don'tcha think?:D

Legbreaker

05-11-2011, 06:17 PM

Oooooo, quoting a spammer..... :(

Still, I can see it coming out as a B movie in the near future.

Cdnwolf

05-11-2011, 07:36 PM

Starring Leonardo and Angeline...

Sanjuro

05-11-2011, 10:03 PM

When I heard he was unarmed, I immediately thought of Unforgiven;
Hackman: "You just shot an unarmed man!"
Eastwood: "Well he should have armed himself."

Matt Wiser

05-11-2011, 10:16 PM

That's a very good line....and since there were AKs in the room, maybe UBL was trying to go for one when he got double-tapped.

Btw, some sites are saying that the weapon used to eliminate UBL was the HK-416.

Free steak and doggie treats for life for the German Shepherd or Belgian Malinois that accompanied the raiders, I say.

Legbreaker

05-11-2011, 10:46 PM

I heard a few days ago that UBL was actually going for a weapon when he was killed. How true that is given the previous statement that he was cowering behind his wife.....
My guess is that he simply looked at a disposable plastic picnic knife that just happened to be in the room, which was just enough justification to warrant a bullet to the forehead. Given his reputation, etc I doubt it would have taken much more than that for the trigger to have been pulled.

Targan

05-12-2011, 01:59 AM

My guess is that he simply looked at a disposable plastic picnic knife that just happened to be in the room, which was just enough justification to warrant a bullet to the forehead.

From quotes I've read from US politicians who have seen photos of OBL's corpse the bullet that killed him entered one eye and exited his ear. Now that's shooting!

LBraden

05-12-2011, 08:14 AM

To be a shot like that, it would have had to been an angle shot, and would have been a left eye to right ear, or vice versa.

Though honestly, there are still numerous different iterations coming out of what happened, I doubt we will truly know, but I have to link this, if only for the chuckle.

http://trekmovie.com/2011/05/06/geman-tv-fail-star-treks-maquis-not-involved-in-bin-laden-mission/

Mohoender

05-12-2011, 10:07 AM

I have no clue and no comment on Bin machin's death and, I'll probably won't have any viable opinion before 70 years (at which point I'll be dead:dead:).

However, when I look at the picture showing Obama and his staff watching the intervention, I can help it but to think that something didn't go as planned:hmh:.

mikeo80

05-12-2011, 02:35 PM

However, when I look at the picture showing Obama and his staff watching the intervention, I can help it but to think that something didn't go as planned:hmh:.

From what I can gather from my reading, one of our choppers malfunctioned as they got to UBL's hidey hole. So, the "Plan" went out the window.

Who was it that said "In combat, a plan is great until there is contact with the enemy"? This may be a mis-quote on my part, but I think the point gets across.

My two cents!

Mike

dragoon500ly

05-12-2011, 05:35 PM

And to add insult to injury, two more jerks got tagged for pretending to be SEALs....one even discribed a Steven Segal movie plot to his home town paper, claiming to have really done this.

Guess the wannabes will be coming out of the woodwork now!

Raellus

05-12-2011, 06:07 PM

Supposedly the heavily modified "stealth" Blackhawk crashed after hitting some sort of turbulence caused by the tall walls of the complex.

I'm sure when the news came through that a chopper had crashed during the op, Obama & co. had flashbacks to the Desert One debacle.

Panther Al

05-12-2011, 06:12 PM

I would tend to think *everyone* involved had that flashback hit them at that moment.

Sanjuro

05-12-2011, 06:36 PM

Legbreaker

05-12-2011, 06:43 PM

Supposedly the heavily modified "stealth" Blackhawk crashed after hitting some sort of turbulence caused by the tall walls of the complex.

You'd think that given they'd run through the op on a 1:1 model of the complex, they'd have been aware of the turbulence issue and modified their plan accordingly.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the US don't want to admit that somebody on the ground got lucky and slotted a bullet or two into something vital during the approach. Seems faaaaaaar more likely than a mechanical fault kicking in at that last critical moment, or "turbulence" they should have known about.

Raellus

05-12-2011, 07:53 PM

Best guess so far for the cause of the helo crash is "vortex ring"- where, when descending in the hover, the air that goes down through the rotors cannot disperse (trapped by a confined space, for example) and flows up and around the outside, then back down again, so the helicopter rotor is trying to fly in a column of air that is falling much faster. Think of it like trying to actually gain height on a Stairmaster and you've got the picture...
The only way to avoid a crash when this happens is to fly forward out of the falling column of air- but if you're trying to descend into a confined space like a compound with high walls you're stuffed!
This is of course only my guess- it fits the reported facts, but it could be completely wrong.

I found that explanation quite helpful, Sanjuro. Thanks.

@Leg: It's possible ground fire played a roll in the 'copter's crash but most reports indicate that very little return gunfire was received during the whole of the operation. From what I've read, it seems as though the compound guards were taken completely by surprise. Initial reports suggested a 40 minute gun battle occured after the SEALs arrived. More recent reports indicate that no such gun battle occured and that the compound guards where taken out quickly and without much in the way of resistance.

It doesn't make sense that the government would lie about the cause of the crash. In fact, a helicopter lost to enemy fire would make the raid seem more daring and dangerous and go some way to add justification, in part, to the shooting of an apparently unarmed Bin Laden.

Keep in mind that the fiery crash at Desert One was also due not to ground fire but due to difficult flying conditions, mechanical issues, and possibly pilot error.

Legbreaker

05-12-2011, 08:17 PM

I'm still very skeptical about the whole thing. Helicopters aren't silent, no matter how anyone might hope so. I'm sure they would have had at least a few moments notice - just long enough for a couple of people (it would only take one) to grab an AK and let loose a burst or two into the air.

As for why they might keep the true cause of the crash a secret, who knows? Just look at the changing information the US has been releasing in the days since the op - UBL was shot while unarmed but resisting in a fashion dangerous to the seals for example... huh? Was he using harsh language, waving his beard at them in a threatening manner? It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Obviously the downed heli wasn't included in the scripted press release and they've had to make changes to their story on the fly. The same probably goes for UBL's death, real, staged or otherwise. Basically, the way it's all happened has created fertile ground for dozens of conspiracy theories - where's the body for example? "The photos showing his death have been doctored", etc...

Realistically only those few dozen people on the ground at the time truely know what really happened, and they're extremely unlikely to be speaking up any time soon.

Personally I believe they toasted his arse, as to lie about it now (for propaganda purposes) runs the risk of serious egg on face latter on. It's not beyond the realms of possibility though that they've smuggled his still breathing body off to a deep dark hole somewhere for interrogation. Same ultimate result though - his body feeding the fishes five minutes after his usefulness is at an end.

Mohoender

05-13-2011, 02:49 AM

Obviously the downed heli wasn't included in the scripted press release and they've had to make changes to their story on the fly. The same probably goes for UBL's death, real, staged or otherwise. Basically, the way it's all happened has created fertile ground for dozens of conspiracy theories - where's the body for example? "The photos showing his death have been doctored", etc...

Of course there is some level of conspiracy (in fact, secrecy) and, in France, we call that "raison d'état". In 1998, I was finishing my bachelor in modern history at the American University of Paris. We were prosecuting Papon (for his action during ww2) and Miterrand had just declared that the archives would be made available to the public. It was true but for 5% of them. As a good historian, my teacher asked for access to these 5% (after all, the French president had just said that free access will be given to them). On the next day, he received a call from the minister of interior affairs asking him not to try to go any further or he would be thrown out of the country.

Realistically only those few dozen people on the ground at the time truely know what really happened, and they're extremely unlikely to be speaking up any time soon.

Right

Personally I believe they toasted his arse, as to lie about it now (for propaganda purposes) runs the risk of serious egg on face latter on. It's not beyond the realms of possibility though that they've smuggled his still breathing body off to a deep dark hole somewhere for interrogation. Same ultimate result though - his body feeding the fishes five minutes after his usefulness is at an end.

Then, they would have executed his wife or americans are the most stupid people on the planet (and you know I doubt it).:D

Targan

05-13-2011, 03:59 AM

Marc

05-13-2011, 04:30 AM

Hmmmmmm... It seems that we can reconstruct the details surrounding Osama's death in 1/285mm scale!

http://www.gamecraftminiatures.com/shopping/Products/447-osama-bin-ladens-pakistan-complex-285mevobl.aspx

Targan

05-13-2011, 05:30 AM

What is so strange about a supposedly 'heavily modified' or 'prototype' aircraft experiencing an unexpected critical failure? Its is often said that the more complicated a mechanical device is the more likely it is to suffer a malfunction. Also, new tech often has 'teething problems'.

rcaf_777

05-13-2011, 11:22 AM

"In combat, a plan is great until there is contact with the enemy"? This may be a mis-quote on my part, but I think the point gets across.

The one I learn in the army was no battle plan ever survies frist contact with the ememy

you use for number of other thing like added in wife or scout troop in place of ememy and removing battle

boogiedowndonovan

05-13-2011, 12:04 PM

my bad LBraden already posted the link about a german tv station showing the wrong SEAL Team 6 logo.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20061024-71.html

Legbreaker

05-13-2011, 12:18 PM

What is so strange about a supposedly 'heavily modified' or 'prototype' aircraft experiencing an unexpected critical failure?.

It's the timing of it that I'm seriously suspicious of. Any other time during the approach or withdrawal and fine, mechanical failure it is, but right on target as they're trying to land? I just don't buy it, especially as previously mentioned, they ran through the op dozens of times on a 1:1 model and therefore should have known about any strange air currents, etc.

I don't believe it's totally impossible, just HIGHLY unlikely to happen right then and there.

Sanjuro

05-13-2011, 02:22 PM

Legbreaker, vortex ring is nothing new; there is nothing mysterious about it- it is a known risk of descending in the hover, made worse when descending in the hover into a confined space, and when descending quickly. Ever watch the helicopter descent in Jurassic Park? Vortex ring is the reason the helo descends so slowly into that ravine...
All it takes is a slight miscalculation of the horizontal stop point, leaving you with a longer than planned hovering descent, the need to get on the ground fast... it doesn't mean anyone made a mistake, or anything failed- it just means that things can go wrong when you have to do something dangerous (as I suspect you know better than I do...)

Raellus

05-13-2011, 03:26 PM

IIRC, the helo crashed after the SEALs it was carrying fast-roped on to the roof of one of the smaller buildings inside the complex. There are a lot of variables there and, no matter how many times the operation was rehearsed with scale models and the like, just a couple of inches could have caused the phenomenon that led to the 'copter's crash.

I've read several articles about the possible stealth technology apparent in the photos of the wrecked tail-boom and none of the sources have suggested it was silent or invisible. I didn't mean to inadvertently imply that this was so. Apparently, if one increases the number of rotors and reduces their size, the helicopter makes less noise. Also, the matte grey paint job is supposed to help confuse IR seekers on shoulder-launched SAMs. The angles of the tail-boom surface and the unusual rotor cap are supposed to reduce the copter's radar signature.

It's possible that the crew had trained in a "standard" spec-ops HH-60 and some little difference in the "stealth" version's performance could have contributed to the crash. Also keep in mind that the choppers had to fly over some very high mountains in order to get to Abbatabad. It's possible that engine strain or something to that effect contributed to the crash.

Sanjuro

05-13-2011, 09:51 PM

By at least one standard, it was a good landing anyway- any landing is a good landing if you walk away from it!

dragoon500ly

05-14-2011, 06:30 AM

There may another reason for for the chopper crash. Even the best quality NVGs have issues with depth perception. Landing in an enclosed compound, with partial cloud cover would create problems for pilots using NVGs. Some of the stories that are floating around state that the pilot may have hit either a wall or one of the compound's building with a rotor which would have caused the crash.

But no one was reported hurt in the crash, OBL was killed, lots of intell was gathered and everyone made it home safe.

In my book, a successful operation!

dragoon500ly

05-14-2011, 06:43 AM

Of course there is some level of conspiracy (in fact, secrecy) and, in France, we call that "raison d'état". In 1998, I was finishing my bachelor in modern history at the American University of Paris. We were prosecuting Papon (for his action during ww2) and Miterrand had just declared that the archives would be made available to the public. It was true but for 5% of them. As a good historian, my teacher asked for access to these 5% (after all, the French president had just said that free access will be given to them). On the next day, he received a call from the minister of interior affairs asking him not to try to go any further or he would be thrown out of the country.

Tell me about it! I was researching Dien Bien Phu for a paper I was writing and filed a request to access the military archives. You would have thought that I had put on a ninja outfit and tried to paint the Effiel Tower red, white and blue! Hostile, threatening and uncooperative does not begin to describe the atitude!!!! So I cut my stay in France short and left for Germany.

Funny thing, I was able to get much easier access to the German military achives and got invaluable help from a trained staff of profesional historians. Never wrote that paper on DBP, but managed an even better one covering the German side of the fighting and surrender of elements of the 106th Infantry Division.

Still, I've always wondered why the atitude, especially since I was only requesting access to the combat logs of the various units involved in the fighting for the Hughette strongpoints...must have been the site of some kind of nuclear research facility...... :rolleyes:

WallShadow

05-14-2011, 07:26 AM

95th Rifleman

05-14-2011, 07:29 AM

I read a joke the other day that made me think.

America has releaseda definitive version of events in regards to bin laden. He was shot by Navy Seals after charging them, mounted on Shergar, wielding Iraqi WMDs and using Lord Lucan as a human shield.

Bin laden was one of the 21st century's most influential men. Think about it, one bloke managed to hide for 10 years while being hunted by the world's biggest (arguably the last) superpower, with all those resources and money behind the search. He was responsible for dragging America into the Afghan war and expending vast resources in the prosecution of that war, a conflict that has dragged so many western nations into it.

Now it's over and he's reduced to a few jokes and conspiracy theories. Yet America is still fighting in Afghanistan.

You can't help wonder who won in the end. Decades from now the conspiracy theories will still be out there and people will still be using his name to justify their terrorist agenda. Even after his death, you can't help wonder who has won really, bin laden or America.

Sanjuro

05-14-2011, 02:47 PM

If you can be bothered with 4 minutes of film, here is a demo using a radio-controlled model; the actual phenomenom is at about 2:40, but he explains how he is going to set it up first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kz_gOWaR7Y
As for China Beach (never heard of it until today!), I watched the opening credits on youtube but none of the helo shots seems to last long enough.

Owen E Oulton

05-14-2011, 08:01 PM

It's occurred to me that if they want to find Zawakiri, they have to think outside the box. F'rinstance if Osama was in Abbotabad, they simply have to find a place called Costellobad.

Mohoender

05-15-2011, 12:47 AM

You would have thought that I had put on a ninja outfit and tried to paint the Effiel Tower red, white and blue!

You should have done that. You would have been recognized as a bright and "avant-garde" artist. You would aslo probably have received a few millions € from the french governement and you would still be receiving money from copyright of all taken pictures.;)

About DBP you went to the wrong country, you must have gone to Vietnam.:D

StainlessSteelCynic

05-15-2011, 02:25 AM

There may another reason for for the chopper crash. Even the best quality NVGs have issues with depth perception. Landing in an enclosed compound, with partial cloud cover would create problems for pilots using NVGs. Some of the stories that are floating around state that the pilot may have hit either a wall or one of the compound's building with a rotor which would have caused the crash...

I would not be surprised at all if this turns out to be the case. There was a situation here in Western Australia in the very early 1990s where the SASR had to medevac a driver at night because he crashed the patrol Landie into a ditch that didn't show up very well in his NVGs. Gave him some broken ribs and lung complications as I recall.

dragoon500ly

05-15-2011, 04:41 PM

You should have done that. You would have been recognized as a bright and "avant-garde" artist. You would aslo probably have received a few millions € from the french governement and you would still be receiving money from copyright of all taken pictures.;)

About DBP you went to the wrong country, you must have gone to Vietnam.:D

LOL

I'll keep that in mind the next time I travel to France! Although the IRS would have waaaaay too much fun with me when I return!

As for DBP, it was easy to get info from the Vietnamese (on the other hand explaining to my boss why I was contacting the Viet Military Attache was lots of fun...NOT!). Although I have to admit I was really surprised at the atitude they displayed, certainly not what I expected, even offered to arrange a tour of the battlefield if I traveled to Vietnam, an offer that I make take up some day.

The French Army on the other hand....I was left with the distinct impression that the next combat operation by the Paras would be directed against the hotel I was staying at!!!

Ah well!

Legbreaker

05-15-2011, 07:08 PM

dragoon500ly

05-16-2011, 12:13 PM

I'm not saying the vortex ring isn't possible, or even all that unlikely, just that you'd think highly trained and practised pilots as you would hope were used would know how to avoid such a thing occurring.
Of course we don't even know if that is what caused the crash, it's just a guess (educated perhaps, but still just a guess).
My statement is that the timing seems awfully convenient to cover up the possibility the AQ detected them coming and had the time to fire off a few shots. It's the way the US have released information (very grudgingly in dribs and drabs) about the operation that's fodder for conspiracy theories.

Even the most experienced pilot has that dumbass moment. One that comes to mind is a pilot flying a FM-2 Wildcat at an air show, he had over two thousand hours in that aircraft, and on the day of the air show, forgot to unlock the tailwheel and managed to ground loop and flip the plane.

Under combat stress, I can see a pilot making an error that results in the damage or destruction of the aircraft. It happens all too often and a good planner always makes sure that a backup is available, a brutal lesson that had to be relearned after Desert One.

As for the conspiracy theorists......its only going to get worse!

Abbott Shaull

05-16-2011, 10:58 PM

Gee seeing that supposedly his compound was heavily guarded. It would surprise me that they had time to shoot down one of the helicopters in the force that was sent to take out Osama. At least they had spares milling around in the assault force to recover both the pilots/crew and the SEALs who were on the helicopter.

Legbreaker

05-16-2011, 11:24 PM

It would have only taken one man with an AK.....
Doesn't really matter how many were in the assaulting force if that one man was able to fire off a burst or two and got lucky.

Of course I'm not saying that's how it happened, just that it's a possibility, and given that the US have been rather hesitant to give details of the op.....

Abbott Shaull

05-16-2011, 11:26 PM

It would have only taken one man with an AK.....
Doesn't really matter how many were in the assaulting force if that one man was able to fire off a burst or two anf got lucky.

Of course I'm not saying that's how it happened, just that it's a possibility, and given that the US have been rather hesitant to give details of the op.....

Honestly I am not too interested in the release of the details. Why piss off people anymore than they are already over the damn situation.

Legbreaker

05-16-2011, 11:44 PM

Sure there are plenty of people out there, possibly even the majority, who don't care a bit about the details, just the result (and many who don't even care about that). However, there's still plenty of people who are intensely interested, such as the Pakistani government, or AQ for example...
And you can bet that virtually every intelligence agency and terrorist organisation on the planet will be doing whatever they can to find out as much detail as they can - information is power after all.

There's no doubt that much of the detail should remain secret, but the information which has been produced by the US is at best confusing, and at worst possibly a complete fabrication. When certain details are released, then retracted and replaced with other details, it creates a fertile breeding ground for conspiracy theories. We don't know what is true and what is just misdirection, or even if there was any attempt at misdirection. Without believable independant sources, we're left with very little to base opinions on.

More than anything I believe it's the PR campaign which has failed here, not the actual operation itself. It seems the US were not ready for the loss of an aircraft or the failure of the mission - the PR people had it seems planned only for complete success and were caught short when things didn't quite turn out as expected. Even the possibility of the death of UBL doesn't seem to have received much forethought.

Targan

05-16-2011, 11:57 PM

I see what you're saying Leg. I'm inclined to accept the current US explanation of events but I do find a few aspects of the case troubling (perhaps confusing would be a better way to describe it). Two areas of concern that spring immediately to mind are why more emphasis wasn't placed on capturing OBL alive, and why he was given a burial at sea without any independent observers being invited to verify the identity of the body.

I've never been very much into conspiracies myself. I'm an Occam's razor kind of guy.

Legbreaker

05-17-2011, 01:46 AM

CORUSCANT — Obi-Wan Kenobi, the mastermind of some of the most devastating attacks on the Galactic Empire and the most hunted man in the galaxy, was killed in a firefight with Imperial forces near Alderaan, Darth Vader announced on Sunday.

In a late-night appearance in the East Room of the Imperial Palace, Lord Vader declared that “justice has been done” as he disclosed that agents of the Imperial Army and stormtroopers of the 501st Legion had finally cornered Kenobi, one of the leaders of the Jedi rebellion, who had eluded the Empire for nearly two decades. Imperial officials said Kenobi resisted and was cut down by Lord Vader's own lightsaber. He was later dumped out of an airlock.

The news touched off an extraordinary outpouring of emotion as crowds gathered in the Senate District and outside the Imperial Palace, waving imperial flags, cheering, shouting, laughing and chanting, “Hail to the Emperor! Hail Lord Vader!” In the alien protection zone, crowds sang “The Ten Thousand Year Empire.” Throughout the Sah'c district, airspeeder drivers honked horns deep into the night.

“For over two decades, Kenobi has been the Jedi rebellion’s leader and symbol,” the Lord of the Sith said in a statement broadcast across the galaxy via HoloNet. “The death of Kenobi marks the most significant achievement to date in our empire’s effort to defeat the rebel alliance. But his death does not mark the end of our effort. There’s no doubt that the rebellion will continue to pursue attacks against us. We must and we will remain vigilant at home and abroad.”

Obi-Wan Kenobi ’s demise is a defining moment in the stormtrooper-led fight against terrorism, a symbolic stroke affirming the relentlessness of the pursuit of those who turned against the Empire at the end of the Clone Wars. What remains to be seen, however, is whether it galvanizes Kenobi’s followers by turning him into a martyr or serves as a turning of the page in the war against the Rebel Alliance and gives further impetus to Emperor Palpatine to step up Stormtrooper recruitment.

In an earlier statement issued to the press, Kenobi boasted that striking him down could make him "more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

How much his death will affect the rebel alliance itself remains unclear. For years, as they failed to find him, Imperial leaders have said that he was more symbolically important than operationally significant because he was on the run and hindered in any meaningful leadership role. Yet he remained the most potent face of terrorism in the Empire, and some of those who played down his role in recent years nonetheless celebrated his death.

Given Kenobi’s status among radicals, the Imperial Galactic government braced for possible retaliation. A Grand Moff of the Imperial Starfleet said late Sunday that military bases in the core worlds and around the galaxy were ordered to a higher state of readiness. The Imperial Security Bureau issued a galactic travel warning, urging citizens in volatile areas “to limit their travel outside of their local star systems and avoid mass gatherings and demonstrations.”

The strike could deepen tensions within the Outer Rim, which has periodically bristled at Imperial counterterrorism efforts even as Kenobi evidently found safe refuge it its territories for nearly two decades. Since taking over as Supreme Commander of the Imperial Navy, Lord Vader has ordered significantly more strikes on suspected terrorist targets in the Outer Rim, stirring public anger there and leading to increased criminal activity.

When the end came for Kenobi, he was found not in the remote uncharted areas of Wild Space and the Unknown Regions, where he has long been presumed to be sheltered, but in a massive compound about an hour’s drive west from the Tatooine capital of Bestine. He had been living under the alias "Ben" Kenobi for some time.

The compound, only about 50 miles from the base of operations for the Imperial Storm Squadron, is at the end of a narrow dirt road and is roughly eight times larger than other homes in the area, which were largely occupied by Tusken Raiders. When Imperial operatives converged on the planet on Saturday, following up on recent intelligence, two local moisture farmers “resisted the assault force” and were killed in the middle of an intense gun battle, a senior Stormtrooper said, but details were still sketchy early Monday morning.

A representative of the Imperial Starfleet said that military and intelligence officials first learned last summer that a “high-value target” was hiding somewhere on the desert world and began working on a plan for going in to get him. Beginning in March, Lord Vader worked closely with a series of several different Admirals serving onboard the Death Star to go over plans for the operation, and on Friday morning gave the final order for members of the 501st Legion (known commonly as "Vader's Fist") to strike.

Kenobi and a group of his followers were eventually captured while fleeing the system, and taken aboard the Death Star, which was in the midst of surveying the recent environmental disaster on Alderaan. Darth Vader called it a “targeted operation,” although officials said four tie fighters were lost because of "mechanical failures" and had to be destroyed to keep them from falling into hostile hands.

In addition to Kenobi, two men and one wookiee were killed, one believed to be his young apprentice and the other two his couriers, according to an admiral who briefed reporters under Imperial ground rules forbidding further identification. A woman was killed when she was used as a shield by a male combatant, the Admiral said. Two droids were also reported missing.

“No Stormtroopers were seriously harmed,” Lord Vader said. “They took care to avoid civilian casualties. After a firefight, I defeated my former master and took custody of his body.” Jedi tradition requires burial within 24 hours, but by doing it in deep space, Imperial authorities presumably were trying to avoid creating a shrine for his followers.

Lord Vader has denied requests to present photographs of the body, describing them as "too gruesome" for the general public.

atiff

05-17-2011, 09:39 AM

And since we are moving on to less-than-serious comments ....

I must admit, when I first saw the headline on this thread, I thought it said "Just in: Obama is dead:

:eek:

Adm.Lee

05-17-2011, 12:14 PM

Back in the RW: I just read that the US had 3 (!) carriers on station, on alert, near Pakistan, and at least one battalion of infantry and an unknown number of helicopters on alert in Afghanistan during and immediately after the May 1 raid. Apparently, we weren't going to fool around if the Pakistanis took violent offense at the Abbotabad raid.

Raellus

05-17-2011, 02:04 PM

This article answers some of the questions about the operation and why the Blackhawk crashed. Check it out.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110517/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden_raid

Legbreaker

05-17-2011, 06:32 PM

It does indeed explain a lot. Pity it took so long to publish....
Some more suspicious minds may think it took them that long to fabricate. ;)

Abbott Shaull

05-17-2011, 09:09 PM

Abbott Shaull

05-17-2011, 09:10 PM

I rather loss a multi-million dollar aircraft than troop who years of training makes them pricesless as far as I am concern.

Legbreaker

05-17-2011, 09:21 PM

Abbott Shaull

05-17-2011, 09:45 PM

Well that's just it isn't it. The fire was going burn no matter what, but the way information about the op was released has only fed that fire.
The article Rae linked to should have been produced on day one to have any real chance of cooling things down, not a week plus after the fact. Probably wouldn't have hurt to have a few independant observers around for the burial too.

Yeah probably should of been, would of been, could of been. Yet, much like the previous Administration they only seem to see thing in the political value that things like this gives them.

What is done, is done.

HELL NO, the more people who would of witness the burial at sea would mean someone would of leaked something more to the press. Much like the killing of Saddam and the picture of his sons when they were finally hunted down. There is no reason for public record of this to be given out for several reasons including keeping the people who were part of this operation as nameless faces as much as possible.

Legbreaker

05-17-2011, 10:44 PM

I'm not saying photos of the burial should have been released, just that an independant observer or two not part of the US military probably should have been there to confirm that it actually happened.
As it is there's so much room to believe he was taken alive (or at least critically injured) and is currently being held for interrogation. Admittedly, dead he's a martyr, but alive he's an intelligence asset.

Targan

05-18-2011, 12:25 AM

HELL NO, the more people who would of witness the burial at sea would mean someone would of leaked something more to the press.

I'm a bit confused about your position here. Leak what to the press? Any witnesses allowed to talk about it would just be independently confirming what US authorities are already saying, publicly.

What harm could come of allowing independent verification of all the events that the US administration is happily talking about anyway?

dragoon500ly

05-18-2011, 06:30 AM

Just one of the problems with an independent witness to OBL's burial is that they would not be believed. Just another American lackey toeing the American line, a traitor to Islam.

Looking over just some of the various websites shows that Arabs have two opinions...so what, nothing has changed and OBL isn't dead.

One of the issues Westerners have with understanding Islam is that, as unbelievers, we are to be killed or enslaved. Islam does not preach mercy, nor does it preach tolerance for other religions. The short form is that any means of killing infidels is a-ok with Allah.

Killing OBL is pure revenge for 9/11. It will not stop terrorist attacks.

Targan

05-18-2011, 06:55 AM

Ok, let me put it another way.

Very broadly speaking there are going to be three groups questioning the 'official' version of events.

The first group (probably a very large group) are those that don't have an inherent hatred of the US, are inclined to accept the official version but would like to see some independently verified evidence. I think I can comfortably say that many of the members of this forum (including myself) would fall into this category. Wouldn't take much and we'd happily accept the official line for the most part. And that is a good thing, yeah?

Then there are the conspiracy theorists. Its going to take a lot of work to convince them that things went down as described but some of them could be convinced, once again with some independently verified evidence. The hard core kooks will always suspect something dodgy is going on. Unless they're heavily armed and unusually agitated they can be safely ignored :D.

Finally there are the mad dog jihadists and various other America-hating groups. Doesn't matter what anyone says, they'll either flat out refuse to believe anything on the 'official' line or twist things to their own ends. Nobody around here is likely to have much sympathy for these nutters. Hopefully they'll at some stage receive the gift of the 'pink mist' and soon be at the right-hand side of their chosen diety.

95th Rifleman

05-18-2011, 09:23 AM

One of the issues Westerners have with understanding Islam is that, as unbelievers, we are to be killed or enslaved. Islam does not preach mercy, nor does it preach tolerance for other religions. The short form is that any means of killing infidels is a-ok with Allah.

.

Well there's a typicaly misunderstood view of Islam.

Islam DOES preach mercy and it DOES preach tolerance (well to the Abrahamic faiths at least). Under strict sharia law Christians and Jews are actualy protected, an example of this is in Iran where Christians are given a legal exemption to the law banning alcohol.

In the same way that Christian fundies pervert christian texts, Islamic nutjobs pervert the Koran to justify their political/theological agenda. They conveniantly ignore the parts of their faith that ban their actions.

By buying into the fundie interpretation of Islam you run the risk of assuming all Muslims are the same. The vast majority of muslims just don't give a damn about fundamentalist Jihad, they want to be left alone to live their lives, make a living and support their family just like the rest of us.

Bear in mind these terrorist nutters are killing more muslims than Americans these days in their attacks. They are as muslim as the KKK is Christian.

headquarters

05-18-2011, 09:36 AM

My country supports the ongoing military efforts in Afghanistan, Libya and have been involved in Iraq. This is done on ethe basis of our obligation to the legal justification for said actions. Also we are an ally of the US. I support the line we have taken. ( Just saying - I am not on a fact hiding mission for some obscure out of contact with the real world group with this :) )

What you state about Islam- however - is a matter up for discussion imho - and H means humble in my acronym.

Islam is practised and preached in a variety of ways, and some of them are militant and do indeed teach violence. But there are of course variations to this. So in short I cannot agree to this portrayal of the Islamic religion. The reason I post this is just to show that there are different opinions on this. You are of course entitled to your view as I am mine.

The reason I have for statingthis is that Islam has various factions, and some do indeed preach tolerance and co existence with other religions. Of course - Sunni Wahabism which is on the move - not so much.

Islam has a major problem as long as it is associated with OBL and AQ etc. However - there are some many Moslems ( 1 000 000 000 people app. or roughly 1 / 5 of the world population) that it seems like a reasonable argument that they are not all in favour of subjugating those who are of another faith. I have to say that the Moslems I know have no tolerance for any violence based on religious beliefs.

I realize that this might be a touchy subject - so in conclusion I understand that a lot of people hold a different opinion.

Just one of the problems with an independent witness to OBL's burial is that they would not be believed. Just another American lackey toeing the American line, a traitor to Islam.

Looking over just some of the various websites shows that Arabs have two opinions...so what, nothing has changed and OBL isn't dead.

One of the issues Westerners have with understanding Islam is that, as unbelievers, we are to be killed or enslaved. Islam does not preach mercy, nor does it preach tolerance for other religions. The short form is that any means of killing infidels is a-ok with Allah.

Killing OBL is pure revenge for 9/11. It will not stop terrorist attacks.

Targan

05-18-2011, 10:02 AM

Mohoender

05-18-2011, 01:45 PM

I wasn't going to respond to dragoon500ly's characterisation of Islam but seeing as others are doing so I suppose I'd may as well.

There are fundamentalists in most religions, as well as very reasonable folk. I'm not personally religious but I don't begrudge others having faith. I do however get really p*ssed off at extremist and violent religious beliefs. And in my experience there are probably just as many Christian nutjobs as Muslim. Those freaks in the US that picket the funerals of fallen soldiers and scream on about America deserving to suffer for its sins are a great example.

As far as the only terrorist attack I ever escaped was performed by Christian, I can only agree. In 1988, over France, members a fundamentalist christian group launched a number of attacks in movie theaters showing "The last temptation of Christ". The first attack was made in a theater on St Michel square (Paris) and resulted in 14 people burnt to various degrees (I was supposed to be there and changed my mind while waiting in line, I was lucky that day). Another attack made one dead.

The most outrageous about this is that five people involved in the first attack were only condemned very lightly : jail with sursis (which means that they never ever got in jail) and a 70000$ fine (for all five). That fundamentalist group (AGRIF) is still in existence today. Yes I know justice is blind.:mad:

95th Rifleman

05-18-2011, 02:28 PM

As far as the only terrorist attack I ever escaped was performed by Christian, I can only agree. In 1988, over France, members a fundamentalist christian group launched a number of attacks in movie theaters showing "The last temptation of Christ". The first attack was made in a theater on St Michel square (Paris) and resulted in 14 people burnt to various degrees (I was supposed to be there and changed my mind while waiting in line, I was lucky that day). Another attack made one dead.

The most outrageous about this is that five people involved in the first attack were only condemned very lightly : jail with sursis (which means that they never ever got in jail) and a 70000$ fine (for all five). That fundamentalist group (AGRIF) is still in existence today. Yes I know justice is blind.:mad:

It's similar for us Brits, we suffered for decades from attacks by the IRA (and the reprisals by the loyalist paramilitaries like the UVF) both sides where Christian.

We need to be wary of falling into the trap of assuming all Muslims are the same, this is EXACTLY what the terrorists want. They want the west to turn on their moderate islamic popuations, they want the moderates to feel threatened and persecuted so that they will join the extremist mindset.

TiggerCCW UK

05-18-2011, 02:55 PM

It's similar for us Brits, we suffered for decades from attacks by the IRA (and the reprisals by the loyalist paramilitaries like the UVF) both sides where Christian.

We need to be wary of falling into the trap of assuming all Muslims are the same, this is EXACTLY what the terrorists want. They want the west to turn on their moderate islamic popuations, they want the moderates to feel threatened and persecuted so that they will join the extremist mindset.

Exactly! This is all they are trying to achieve - cause more division, fragment the opposition and garner new recruits from more moderate members of their faith/political persuasion by making the opposition treat them badly.

Here in NI it has long been said that the greatest recruiter for the Republican movement was Bloody Sunday. Likewise, after the Remembrance Sunday bombing in Enniskillen, the Loyalist groups gained an influx of recruits. This was all as a reaction to the actions of 'the other side'.

Likewise it does no good to stereotype a religion, race or political movement, although this it is much easier to say this than stick to it. I've personally experienced the stereotyping of both sides of the troubles over here. When I was living here in Belfast I would automatically be perceived as Loyalist/Protestant because of the part of the city I lived in, where I went to school etc. By the same token, when I went to England to uni I ended up getting scooped under section 12 of the prevention of terrorism act on suspicion of Republican sympathies - long story, but essentially I got lifted for walking while Irish. Suffice to say I wasn't a terrorist of either side (my then girlfriend's Dad was a senior RUC officer) but it did get me to thinking a bit more about things - certainly had the police mistreated me in any way I could have become more sympathetic towards the Republican side. It’s hard to do, but please try and treat everyone as an individual and try not to buy into propaganda about them or their beliefs.

Legbreaker

05-18-2011, 06:26 PM

Having spent two weeks in a small car with a "normal" muslim (his day job was used car salesman), I feel somwhat qualified to comment. It was stated to me several times with all seriousness that Islam would take over the world by either stealth (conversions, etc) or force (full on military action, bombings and so on to kill all unbelievers). No preference was given for either and there was certainly no hesitation about the latter option.
It was the most nervous and uncomfortable two weeks of my life made even worse by them being armed, and me not.

Abbott Shaull

05-18-2011, 09:54 PM

All I am going to say it doesn't matter if you believe is Jewish, a flavor of Christianity, or Muslim. Both Christianity and Muslim faith do discuss tolerance in their teaching of people who believe in other religions. They both also teach that you should try to convert the non-believers over to your religion in none violent mean.

The sad thing is population wise 1/5 or more depending on whose number you listen to is Muslim.

The sad thing lot of people who express they are of one of these three religions who express lot of hate. Regardless if it was in the past or the present. It all add fuel to the fire that keeps the hatred going.

Mohoender

05-19-2011, 12:28 AM

Having spent two weeks in a small car with a "normal" muslim (his day job was used car salesman), I feel somwhat qualified to comment.

In fact, no : Testis unus, testis nullus. You had, however, an interesting experience that you wisely share. I had, for my part, numerous and much longer experiences with normal muslims and don't feel qualified at all.

I have friends in Tunisia, Algeria, Mauritania, Morocco, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. I have met people (not firends this time) from all these countries plus a number from Pakistan and Asian muslim countries (not to talk of African muslim). One of my best friend is married to a Saudi (And I spent hours speaking with him about religion). I recently translated judicial material to help an english woman whose saudi husband stole her children. The lawyer, I and my ex-wife, had for our divorce was a Tunisian muslim. My step father has spent years in the muslim world. The public frenchman for whom I have the most respect is a muslim. Around my place, you have 13 muslim families (one fundamentalist, another one being fully successful with kids becoming lawyers, others being on the average, many being regular, some being a pain). I had met people from Harki, Berber and Arabic descent.

Still, I could brought up plenty of testimony, most contradictory. The only common ground between all these people is that, if they have faith, they won't tolarate that you attack the Coran. Actually, I have witnessed the same attitude from Christian and Jews.

Leg, If I had been you, I might have had a word with the police about the guy you met. If he went as far as what you describe (in his thinking), he could become dangerous or may be not.

Legbreaker

05-19-2011, 01:37 AM

I forgot to mention he had been studying for years to be an Imam and knew the Qur'an backwards.
As an armed security guard he had been through the various police background checks too. He avoided coming out and saying anything specific, but the overall impression was that non-muslims were nothing more than animals unworthy of treatment as humans.

Mohoender

05-19-2011, 01:40 AM

Then, you had a very interesting experience I never had with a fundamentalist muslim. From what you add here, that man is even more scary that what you say first hand.

The most impressive to me is that you could stand him two weeks. That qualifies you to comment fundamentalist but don't generalize to muslims.:)

Legbreaker

05-19-2011, 02:00 AM

Mohoender

05-19-2011, 02:11 AM

But you're right, it was an exercise in EXTREME patience (the .38 on his belt probably had something to do with that though).

That's a point, LOL:p:D

95th Rifleman

05-19-2011, 03:51 AM

He most certainly did not come across as a fundamentalist in almost all ways. He backed up every statement with reasons and justifications which to many would have seemed quite reasonable.
But you're right, it was an exercise in EXTREME patience (the .38 on his belt probably had something to do with that though).

In my experience with American fundamentalists that they also back up every statement with reasons and justifications. I once spent several hours trapped with a rather sinister and scary American who proceeded to explain to me, in detail, how America is a country for Christians and that all gays, jews and muslims need to be converted or deported. This was in california which I am led to believe is one of the most liberal American states.

I think everyone can come up with personal, negaive experiences of other religions, hell i can tell a few tales of aggressive zionists (I walked into a few of them in oxford once saying that the palestinians where animals and should be wiped out).

But as I said the vast majority of people, of any faith, just want to be left alone to live their lives. The problem is these people don't attract attention, they just go about their lives like the rest of us. The minority who preach violence and fundamentalism get all the screen time and so people associate them as the majority.

Targan

05-19-2011, 04:28 AM

I think everyone can come up with personal, negaive experiences of other religions, hell i can tell a few tales of aggressive zionists (I walked into a few of them in oxford once saying that the palestinians where animals and should be wiped out).

To me that is mind boggling. Of all the people in the world who should know better than that. Its like abused children who grow up to be child abusers themselves.

headquarters

05-19-2011, 04:56 AM

headquarters

05-19-2011, 05:07 AM

I still think the moderates will dominate in the end.

Sure we will have problems with religious factions - some due to circumstance and some due to the people in them being intolerant or nutjobs..

We have our share up here too, but luckily, so far, knock on wood, violence has been almost non existence save the odd bloodied nose.

I seem to see a change in people in general - when they become parents. Many -not all of course - soften their beliefs and focus more on whats closer to the heart.

As the old Norwegian poem says about fatherhood and peace-

for he who carries on his arm an irreplacable burden,
cannot murder

( it rhymes well in our beautiful Norse tongue ;) )

so - to peace and long FtF sessions :)

Fusilier

05-19-2011, 08:08 AM

Both Christianity and Muslim faith do discuss tolerance in their teaching of people who believe in other religions."

A few of my favorite tolerance verses...

"Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But even that would by no means remove the doom." Quran 2:96

"Only evil people are disbelievers." Quran 2:99

"The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers." Quran 2:254

"Those who disbelieve in the Quran, for whatever reason, are cursed by Allah, the angels, and men combined. So every good Muslim must join Allah and the angels in cursing nonbelievers." Quran 2:161

"The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened." Quran 2:162

"It's you and your religion against them and theirs. They won't stop fighting until they make you a "renegade from your religion" and if they succeed in that so you die in disbelief, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire." 2:217

"Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim." Quran 3:73

"Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you." Quran 3:118

"A hypocritical Jew looks like an ass carrying books. Those who deny the revelations of Allah are ugly." Quran 62:5

"Smite (cut) the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded." Quran 47:4

"Only wrong-doers deny the revelations of Allah." Quran 29:49

"Allah will make disbelievers' lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die." Quran 2:114

"Allah gave Muhammad the one true religion and sent him to conquer all other (false) religions." Quran 61:9

"Those who oppose Allah and His Messenger will be among the lowest." 58:20

"Stay away from non-Muslims, especially those who disbelieve in the afterlife." Quran 53:29

"Those who disbelieve in the afterlife give female names to angels." Quran 53:27

"If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom." 48:16

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" Quran 8:12

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Quran 9:29

"Those who disbelieve are guilty folk." Quran 45:31

"Those who disbelieve will taste hard punishment." Quran 41:50

"Intermarriage is forbidden." Quran 2:221

"Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter." Quran 33:60-61

"Allah will taunt the Christians in hell, saying: Where are all my parnters that you used to believe in?" Quran 40:73

"Those who disbelieve are the owners of the Fire." Quran 40:6

"Those who disbelieve will be driven into hell." Quran 39:71-72

"Allah will make non-believers "taste humiliation in the life of the world" and " the doom of the Hereafter" which will be even worse." Quran 39:26

"Those who deny the messengers deserve doom." Quran 38:14

"Allah killed everyone in Sodom except for Lot and his family." Quran 37:136

"Allah drowned everyone except Noah and his family in the flood." Quran 37:82

"Those who refuse to believe in Muhammad's revelations will face a painful doom." Quran 37:31-38

"Disbelievers will burn forever in the fire of hell. Allah will keep them alive so that he can torture them forever. When they repent and ask for mercy, he will ignore them." Quran 35:36-7

"Ignore disbelievers and their poisonous talk." Quran 33:48

"Don't obey disbelievers." Quran 33:1

"When the Hour comes, Christians will be divided into two groups: Those who believed Allah's revelations, and those who disbelieved in them. The believers will be happy in the Garden; the disbelievers will be brought to doom." Quran 30:13-16

"Those who disbelieve in the revelations of Allah are the losers." Quran 29:52

"Never help disbelievers." Quran 28:86

"Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers." Quran 2:191

95th Rifleman

05-19-2011, 08:35 AM

I'm trying to resist the temptation to dredge up similar verses from both the Bible and the Torah.

It does both amuse and dismay me that we seem to have to have an enemy. It's more pronounced in the English and American mentalities but is present throughout the west.

Way before WW2 we where persecuting jews and using religous texts to justify their demonisation. We all know how tat hobby turned out in the end don't we?

The majority of the problems between islam and the west can be traced back to the crusades when some daft pope called Pious yelled "Deus volte!" and with two words justified the murder and rape of any poor soul who wasn't a catholic.

With the fall of communism we have pounced on islam as the next boogey man under the bedn and sure as winter and taxes, we will find another one in a century or so.

The only thing that will ever unite the human race is the discovery of inteligent life outside this earth. Then we can unite in our hatred of it.

Fusilier

05-19-2011, 08:46 AM

The only thing that will ever unite the human race is the discovery of inteligent life outside this earth. Then we can unite in our hatred of it.

Or unshackling ourselves from outdated dogmatic beliefs and continuing with the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason. With an emphasis on education, logic and rational, critical thinking, we can always wait for aliens later.

It isn't humans that are flawed beyond hope.

Fusilier

05-19-2011, 09:04 AM

I'm trying to resist the temptation to dredge up similar verses from both the Bible and the Torah.

You can always start with slavery being okay.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Slavery FTW!!!!!!11111

Mohoender

05-19-2011, 11:02 AM

hell i can tell a few tales of aggressive zionists (I walked into a few of them in oxford once saying that the palestinians where animals and should be wiped out).

I have met one like that who had been my sister's boyfriend and the head of an anti-racist organization. I threaten to throw him out of the window after he told me that "a good muslim is a dead muslim"

Then, I agree with you riflle. Altough i don't believe in any god, fundamentalism of all sorts are in no ways a question of religion. Simply a question of Mankind and mankind is capable of the best but also of the worse.

The surprising thing is how much we fear muslim terrorism while this doesn't reflect reality. After 9/11, in US, over 22 terrorist attacks I could list on wiki only one can be linked to Islamic fundamentalism, 5 more to isolated muslim madness, 5 to various activists (annimal rights, anti-abortions...), most were the fact of Catholic and almost all resulted from the action of isolated madmen.

When you get to France, since january 2009, 120 terrorist attacks have hit the country (the public has been aware of one or two at most) with 4 by a shadowy wine defense group (no kidding), 10 by the basques and 106 by the corsicans (In corsica and corsica alone). Still if you ask a french who is a terrorist these days, he will answer the Muslims, Corsicans being part of our tourist attraction anyway.

I'm not saying that there is no real Islamic fundalism threat (which is indeed very real), simply that regular people are overwhelmed by their imagination.

Targan

05-19-2011, 11:26 AM

Or unshackling ourselves from outdated dogmatic beliefs and continuing with the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason. With an emphasis on education, logic and rational, critical thinking, we can always wait for aliens later.

Yes. A world of Yes. Couldn't have put it better myself.

Mohoender

05-19-2011, 11:40 AM

It does both amuse and dismay me that we seem to have to have an enemy. It's more pronounced in the English and American mentalities but is present throughout the west.

Nothing so surprising as the West is Christian. Christianity was first adopted by Emperor Constantin in order to win a war. Ever since, it has constantly been brought forward for the same purpose. The fault, however, might not be in Christianity but in Constantin.

Mohoender

05-19-2011, 11:47 AM

continuing with the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason. With an emphasis on education, logic and rational, critical thinking.

Too bad these are shadded in blood and treachery. Founding a new age might be a better option. The age of reason is as outdated as the dogmatic beliefs.

Fusilier

05-19-2011, 12:06 PM

The age of reason is as outdated as the dogmatic beliefs.

I highly disagree. The modern form of the scientific method for example, is the best know technique in that discipline. It isn't outdated if it works, works well, and there is no better known alternative.

dragoon500ly

05-19-2011, 12:16 PM

I've always tried to maintain a neutral stance whenever the discussion turns around to politics and religion, both tend to tick off just about everyone!

My own views on Islam is colored by my personnel experiences. First, while stationed in Oman as part of a Military Assistance Program. The year I spent there was most enlighting in so far as teching me on just how badly the US is hated in the Middle East. Our support of Israel, our dealings in supporting too many governments that, frankly, placed human rights well below that of those enjoyed by racing camels.

To see a woman, stoned to death, her crime, she walked to the market with a man who was not her husband or one of his relatives (he was her brother, but that doesn't count); tends to not leave a high opinion of the religion.

Converstations with Omani soldiers simply confirmed their viewpoint on America. They call us the Great Satan for a reason. And please remember, Omani has been a US ally for sometime, and thier own citizens believe that "Crusaders must be killed."

Care to take a wild guess on who they consider to be Crusaders?

To be sure, there are moderates; but then these are not the ones using the religion to murder innocents. The sad fact of life is that most of the famous Islamic leaders of the 20th Century, are terrorists.

In my office there are two Moslems, and the difference between the two is eye-opening. One is a moderate, has lived in the US for over twenty years (has been a citizen for over fifteen years), is married to an American and has five children, all born and raised in the USA. He faithly practises his religion and is an example of the good that Islam can produce.

The second, now a former worker, was a shining example of the popular example of Islam. He contributed part of his paycheck to an Imam known to support Al-Quida. He certainly enjoyed cruising their websites and was finally arrested after finally coming to the attention of the FBI. Converstations with this person, where to say the least, eye opening, hence my original posting.

A religion, that allows its members to restrict their female followers to the status of fifth-class citizens, that demonizes anyone who does not believe as they do; that considers itself to have a mandate from God-given to convert by sword and flame, is a religion that generates mistrust, fear and anger.

It is even a greater shame that this same, extremist atitude can be found in Christian sects as well as Islamic sects. But then, haven't we been cheerfully killing each other "In the Name of God" since the beginning of recorded history?

95th Rifleman

05-19-2011, 01:00 PM

In regards to Human rights abuse, most of the obscene practices in the middle east actualy predate islam. Another example is female circumcison in certain parts of africa, the practice predates the islamic convesion of the region. Religion is just used as a handy way to reinforce such practices. Christianity has been used to justify similar obscene practices in the past.

I'm a pagan, was raised catholic but abandoned that paticular faith when I was beaten black and blue at school after an IRA attack. the fact that my father was in the RAF had no bearing it seems, i was catholic and as such a legitimate target. hell the kids who beat me up probably couldn't name a single street in belfast (I was in Norflk at the time, my dad osted to RAF marham) but because they where told the IRA where catholic they picked on the first catholic they knew.

This kind of opened my eyes in allot of ways and now that I'm 30 and consider myself somewhat educated and modestly inteligent, i try to be logical about things.

the middle eastern mess originates in the crusades, but the cold war is the main factor responsible for the state of things today. America supported Israel and as such the soviets backed Israel's enemies. America then supported middle eastern nations that had issues with soviet backed nations. Britain brought in nations that had a good relationship going back to colonial days (such as Jordan and saudi). This set the scene for decades of delicate balance.

The problem is when the soviets collapsed and America seemed to finaly win the cold war, America was left with the mess in the middle east. iraq is a good example, for years he was America's pet and was allowed to do what he wanted as long as he stood against Iranin the balancing act. How that ended up is a matter of historic record now.

Bin laden is another good example, during the soviet war against Afghanistan the Mujahadeen and talibanwhere happily supported by America, as long as they where killing russians it's all good.

In the aftermath you have a world full of various groups armed and trained by one of the two superpowers who developed their own theological/political agendas that where previously kept in check by the cold war balancing act. Now we have no cold war they have been unleashed to haunt us.

Mohoender

05-19-2011, 01:39 PM

It isn't outdated if it works, works well, and there is no better known alternative.

If the men behind the age of reason had thought as you do, the age reason would have never existed. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying it is outdated and we must go forward.

Moreover, you'll never find a better alternative if you don't look for it.

Fusilier

05-19-2011, 02:04 PM

If the men behind the age of reason had thought as you do, the age reason would have never existed. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying it is outdated and we must go forward.

Moreover, you'll never find a better alternative if you don't look for it.

Implying nobody is...

And more so, what makes it outdated?

Legbreaker

05-19-2011, 06:31 PM

I still think the moderates will dominate in the end.

Who was it that said something like "all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to stay silent"?
Given that uncomfortable truth, my money is on the extremists and fundamentalists punching well above their weight.

Mohoender

05-19-2011, 11:57 PM

Implying nobody is...

And more so, what makes it outdated?

Implying what? Simply that we must not remain stuck 3 centuries before our time.

What makes it outdated?

1) It is 300 years old and doesn't fit our today's world anymore.

2) More importantly, it replaced god by science but retain the original mistake of most modern religion. It retains the separation between mankind and the planet it lives on. We still are not part of nature but above it with a continuing idea of domination.

3) We are currently seeing the limit of it as science no longer provides answers to our current problems. For my part, I think it still could but not as long as it works in opposition to the planet. Just take a recent exemple: Japan and Fukushima. We have seen the limit of our current approach and what is our answer: Change the building norms. What will be the result of it: Nothing can be built anymore. I'm living in the region of Draguignan which was hit by floods. What is our answer: the same. Why teaching people to live with the risk while we simply can forbid them to live?

Funny how the current sciences evolved in ways similar to the medieval religions. At first, it progressively freed man from restraining religious rules (many still surviving nonetheless). Nowadays, It imposes even more rules that are as restraining :
- ecology plays on guilt as did the priests with the made-up ideas of purgatory.
- construction : within a few years I won't be anymore able to sell my house (new regulations that are too demanding) while housing price becomes so important that many can no longer to even afford to have a house.
- limitation of freedom of speech and attempt to limit the free flow of information : Patriot act in US, Hadopi in France... (all with a good reasons but always with no clear limits)
- destruction of the freedom to make a descent living (and I'm not kidding): you can no longer grow the plants grown by your father and sell them. We are now licensing life itself. Just as an exemple: In India, cotton growing farmers are now forced to use GM cotton from Monsanto. They can't afford it and currently more than 1000 of them commit suicide every month. That makes more casualties than the official numbers for the US intervention in Iraq.
- pure stupidity: We are outraged by the BP rig off the coast of US but don't care for the destruction in Nigeria. France is promoting nuclear power and we are dumping our waste with no control in the middle of Siberia. We are fighting piracy off the coast of Somalia and allow industrial fishing within the limit of their national waters pushing people there toward piracy (just a detail, piracy is also growing in Asia, off the coast of Africa, in the Carribean, and in the Mediterraneans).

Therefore, I'm not saying that you must destroy the principles but it's more than time to review them. I'm fine with regulation but not when regulations destroy freedom.

This thread has been talking of terrorism. What amaze me today is how limited terrorism remains and this alone should bring a lot of hope.

Fusilier

05-20-2011, 12:58 AM

Implying what? Simply that we must not remain stuck 3 centuries before our time.

What makes it outdated?

1) It is 300 years old and doesn't fit our today's world anymore.

So reason has a best before date? I'm not sure how you think that just because a concept is old, it can no longer fit in society. What would you rather replace reason then?

Or what should replace the current scientific method, or the principles of freedom, and democracy? As you said, these concepts are old so they can't fit into society anymore.

More importantly, it replaced god by science but retain the original mistake of most modern religion. It retains the separation between mankind and the planet it lives on. We still are not part of nature but above it with a continuing idea of domination.

Not sure what you mean with this.

We are a part of nature "now" thanks ENTIRELY to science. Science classifies humans as part of the Animal Kingdom... we know that we are a subspecies of apes. There is absolutely no special separation for humans in the classification of living things thanks to our discoveries.

Ecology and a variety of biology disciplines also focus entirely on understanding and preserving and sustaining nature - not dominate it. Unless you can give an example, I don't see what kind of scientific discipline is currently out of date with regards to nature.

3) We are currently seeing the limit of it as science no longer provides answers to our current problems.

Science is providing new answers to current problems every single day. Every day dozens of new journals publish new discoveries and shed light on old ones. Science is fluid, always in motion. I find it mind boggling that you think science is stagnating with nothing new being offered. If anything, science is growing faster than ever before.

Just take a recent exemple: Japan and Fukushima. We have seen the limit of our current approach and what is our answer: Change the building norms. What will be the result of it: Nothing can be built anymore. I'm living in the region of Draguignan which was hit by floods. What is our answer: the same. Why teaching people to live with the risk while we simply can forbid them to live?

Japan owes EVERYTHING to science. Without science the loss of life would have been far greater. Japan's infrastructure has been designed specifically to withstand or reduce the effects of earthquakes. You can't build anything there without following construction codes that fall in line with what scientists have learned. I'm sorry if you think that means you won't be able to build anything (a silly notion), but human life is far more important than your exaggerated complaints.

Top 10 earthquakes by death tolls
1556 China 820,000 deaths from a weaker (8.0) quake
1976 China 242,419–779,000 deaths from a weaker (7.5-7.8) quake)
525 Turkey 250,000 deaths from a weaker (8.0) quake
1920 China 235,502 deaths from a weaker (7.8) quake)
2010 Haiti 222,570 deaths from a weaker (7.0) quake)
856 Iran 200,000 deaths from a weaker (7.9) quake)
893 Iran 150,000 deaths from an unknown quake
1923 Japan 142,000 deaths from a weaker (7.9) quake

Your comparison with recent Japan quake
2011 Japan Earthquake (9.0) was stronger than ALL of the top 10 killer earthquakes yet it suffered "only" 15,093 deaths which includes those also killed by a tsunami. At least 10 times more people survived due to building codes that you find inconvenient than the quake on the bottom of that list.

And no, this isn't the "limit current approach". This technology continues to grow and expand as new knowledge is gained.

Funny how the current sciences evolved in ways similar to the medieval religions. At first, it progressively freed man from restraining religious rules (many still surviving nonetheless). Nowadays, It imposes even more rules that are as restraining :

Wow. You point a finger at science, claiming it is out of date and stagnating, then continue to complain that what it has learned (to improve people's lives) is disrupting you.

- ecology plays on guilt as did the priests with the made-up ideas of purgatory.

A minute ago you complained we are not one with nature. Now you are complaining that ecology uses guilt? One big difference is that there is no evidence for purgatory or hell, but we know the facts of what negative effects can occur to ecosystems and the planet as a whole. Ecology uses facts and evidence... whether people feel guilty over this is irrelevant. The facts speak for themselves.

- construction : within a few years I won't be anymore able to sell my house (new regulations that are too demanding) while housing price becomes so important that many can no longer to even afford to have a house.

- limitation of freedom of speech and attempt to limit the free flow of information : Patriot act in US, Hadopi in France... (all with a good reasons but always with no clear limits)

- destruction of the freedom to make a descent living (and I'm not kidding): you can no longer grow the plants grown by your father and sell them. We are now licensing life itself. Just as an exemple: In India, cotton growing farmers are now forced to use GM cotton from Monsanto. They can't afford it and currently more than 1000 of them commit suicide every month. That makes more casualties than the official numbers for the US intervention in Iraq.

- pure stupidity: We are outraged by the BP rig off the coast of US but don't care for the destruction in Nigeria. France is promoting nuclear power and dumping our waste with no control in the middle of Siberia. We are fighting piracy off the coast of Somalia and allowing industrial fishing within the limit of their national waters pushing people there toward piracy.

Are those science or government? Science explains the natural world, government administers its population and makes policies. Scientific knowledge can influence a government decision, but you can't blame the progression of knowledge and education on unpopular government decisions.

None of those things also mean that logic and rational, critical thinking are out of date. If anything, it shows those concepts are NOT being used.

Mohoender

05-20-2011, 03:46 AM

So reason has a best before date? I'm not sure how you think that just because a concept is old, it can no longer fit in society. What would you rather replace reason then?

Of course it does and that's about time+1hour. Then, I'm not talking of reason, I'm talking of the "age of reason", a concept which dates back to the 18th century and doesn't only include reason, which already evolved into something else and has ended as early as late 18th century (strictly speaking). It has, however, left its mark and part of the concept remain valid but only part of it.

Or what should replace the current scientific method, or the principles of freedom, and democracy? As you said, these concepts are old so they can't fit into society anymore.

The principles remain valid, the concepts have changed deeply and will again. Actually, they are changing right now has we exchange. scientific methods is changing all the time, people are discredited because they attack the common science (only six months ago, a majority of the french scientits involved in studies over climate change issued a petition to have the minister of science silencing one of their oponents/The politicians refused showing more reason than all these bright-scientists), principles of freedom are even more moving and you'll be thrown in jail today for things that were perfectly acceptable only 10 years ago. By the way democracy and principles of freedom are not included in the concept of the "age of reason". They are a further development of it.

We are a part of nature "now" thanks ENTIRELY to science. Science classifies humans as part of the Animal Kingdom... we know that we are a subspecies of apes. There is absolutely no special separation for humans in the classification of living things thanks to our discoveries.

For a tiny bit of the population. Show an evolved ape having sex with a human in a movie and you get a scandal. Tell most people that they are no more than animals and they immediatly oppose you intelligence, science, arts... to prove that you are wrong. In most countries (including democracies) you even put your life at risk.

Ecology and a variety of biology disciplines also focus entirely on understanding and preserving and sustaining nature - not dominate it. Unless you can give an example, I don't see what kind of scientific discipline is currently out of date with regards to nature.

Recycling, mining, oil exploitation, agriculture, species reintroduction in areas where they can't fit any more... However, by writing science I made a mistake , I should have writen science application.

Science is providing new answers to current problems every single day. Every day dozens of new journals publish new discoveries and shed light on old ones. Science is fluid, always in motion. I find it mind boggling that you think science is stagnating with nothing new being offered. If anything, science is growing faster than ever before.

Again you are right, I was thinking science application but that is all that matters. Theory is useless unless applied. We have checked (quite some times ago) and only one of us (Targan) could find one new invention since WW2.

Japan owes EVERYTHING to science. Without science the loss of life would have been far greater. Japan's infrastructure has been designed specifically to withstand or reduce the effects of earthquakes. You can't build anything there without following construction codes that fall in line with what scientists have learned. I'm sorry if you think that means you won't be able to build anything (a silly notion), but human life is far more important than your exaggerated complaints.

Of course you can build something but nobody can afford it. Right now, establishing these new codes is simply throwing people in the streets.

Top 10 earthquakes by death tolls
1556 China 820,000 deaths from a weaker (8.0) quake
1976 China 242,419–779,000 deaths from a weaker (7.5-7.8) quake)
525 Turkey 250,000 deaths from a weaker (8.0) quake
1920 China 235,502 deaths from a weaker (7.8) quake)
2010 Haiti 222,570 deaths from a weaker (7.0) quake)
856 Iran 200,000 deaths from a weaker (7.9) quake)
893 Iran 150,000 deaths from an unknown quake
1923 Japan 142,000 deaths from a weaker (7.9) quake

Your comparison with recent Japan quake
2011 Japan Earthquake (9.0) was stronger than ALL of the top 10 killer earthquakes yet it suffered "only" 15,093 deaths which includes those also killed by a tsunami. At least 10 times more people survived due to building codes that you find inconvenient than the quake on the bottom of that list.

And no, this isn't the "limit current approach". This technology continues to grow and expand as new knowledge is gained.

You are totally out of track here as I never talk (not even thought) about casualties.

Wow. You point a finger at science, claiming it is out of date and stagnating, then continue to complain that what it has learned (to improve people's lives) is disrupting you.

Again, in a way, you are right, I meant its application.

A minute ago you complained we are not one with nature. Now you are complaining that ecology uses guilt? One big difference is that there is no evidence for purgatory or hell, but we know the facts of what negative effects can occur to ecosystems and the planet as a whole. Ecology uses facts and evidence... whether people feel guilty over this is irrelevant. The facts speak for themselves.

To return your own saying you claimed that science constantly evolves : "Every day dozens of new journals publish new discoveries and shed light on old ones.". Then, you state that Ecology uses facts and evidence. and you express a certainty (in fact two). First, that we know the facts of what negative effects can occur to ecosystems (if you do, I don't and the only certainty I have is that it affects it). Second, you place your faith in a the idea that we will be able to fix it (Probably, or at least, we could manage it, but if, and only if, we fully back all the scientist working on the subject and listen to all of them) . By the way you are right about hell but not about the purgatory which is 12th century invention (historical science).

Are those science or government? Science explains the natural world, government administers its population and makes policies. Scientific knowledge can influence a government decision, but you can't blame the progression of knowledge and education on unpopular government decisions.

It's all the same. First science doesn't explain, it attempts to explain. Second, to achieve the slightest of things it needs government and financial support. Without these, it remains an obscure theory and a piece of paper. Indeed we publish a lot but we hide as much (The last flu pandemic being the best exemple). Something else, science and reason didn't appear on the 18th century but with humanity unless if you consider that people such as Thalès, Plinus, Archimede, Leontios, Abd el-Latif el-Baghdadi, Copernicus were not scientists. What I mean is that sciences have always known periods of great expensions and period of stagnations (depending on how it managed to seduce the political, popular, religous and financial powers). Indeed, I think that we entered a period of stagnation as we essentially improve what already exists, inventing very little (pushing the real inventions to the closet).

None of those things also mean that logic and rational, critical thinking are out of date. If anything, it shows those concepts are NOT being used.

I think we entirely agree with this and if it was not the case we would not have this exchange. Too bad I can't be in Bangkok.:)

LBraden

05-20-2011, 05:35 AM

All we need is some bloke to be given powers, unite the Earth, destroy all religions and then create a form of intergalactic travel....

SORTED.
(and have an extra cup of tea if you get the reference)

95th Rifleman

05-20-2011, 08:42 AM

Mohoender

05-20-2011, 08:51 AM

Blaahh! There si always hope (definitely can't help it, LOL :smashfrea).

Fusilier

05-20-2011, 06:15 PM

Hey Moh,

I always like finish on a high note, so I thought I would ask you if you noticed my new sig?

Mohoender

05-21-2011, 12:33 AM

Now I did.:eek: LOL

WallShadow

05-21-2011, 06:41 AM

Hey Moh,

I always like finish on a high note, so I thought I would ask you if you noticed my new sig?

Why do I hear a chorus of "Every Sperm is Sacred" in the background when I read Fusilier's sig line?

dragoon500ly

05-21-2011, 07:33 AM

And to finish on a rather sad note.

It has been announched that the beginning of the end of the world will commence at 6pm Pacific Standard Time, on May 21, 2011.

According to the Family Network, a fringe Christian broadcst network the Rapture happens tonight and will kick off five months of increasingly severe natural diasters and wars with the end of the world timed for October 2011.

:rolleyes:

Its always the fringe elements that leave me with a headache!

TiggerCCW UK

05-21-2011, 09:14 AM

Its going to last months? I thought it was all over today and let my library books go overdue....:D

pmulcahy11b

05-21-2011, 09:34 AM

No point in vacuuming and dusting the house then...

pmulcahy11b

05-21-2011, 09:36 AM

Have you noticed that all the Christian nuts that believe in the Rapture are also certain that they will be Raptured? Never occurs to them that maybe God isn't interested in saving their insufferable selves.

95th Rifleman

05-21-2011, 10:30 AM

Legbreaker

05-21-2011, 01:58 PM

The Romans had the right idea - throw 'em all to the lions! ;)

WallShadow

05-21-2011, 03:40 PM

The Romans had the right idea - throw 'em all to the lions! ;)

Pity how the Romans now ARE the Christians, eh Legbreaker?:rolleyes:

dragoon500ly

05-21-2011, 04:35 PM

Its going to last months? I thought it was all over today and let my library books go overdue....:D

Yup! For the next five months you will hunted down by scores of librarians, all demanding their overdue book fees. Every where you turn....they will be waiting!!!!

:p

pmulcahy11b

05-21-2011, 06:49 PM

Yup! For the next five months you will hunted down by scores of librarians, all demanding their overdue book fees. Every where you turn....they will be waiting!!!!

:p

And after the five months...come the ZOMBIE LIBRARIANS!!!

Webstral

05-21-2011, 06:56 PM

And after the five months...come the ZOMBIE LIBRARIANS!!!

Do zombie librarians still wear the pencil skirts, hair up, and glasses? That would fill me with an intriguing mix of horror and longing.

Webstral

mikeo80

05-21-2011, 07:35 PM

Well, if TEOTWAWKI is going to happen at 18:00 on the West Coast, Will we on the East Coast even notice?

If TEOTWAWKI is going to happen at 18:00 on the West Coast, Is that Daylight Savings Time or Standard Time?

If TEOTWAWKI is going to happen at 18:00 on the West Coast, can I tell my supervisor to F*** OFF???

If TEOTWAWKI is going to happen at 18:00 on the West Coast, I have less than 30 minutes here in North Carolina to get ready. More Beer!

Just my two cents worth!!

:sasmokin:

I'll talk to you all tomorrow!!!!

Mike

Abbott Shaull

05-21-2011, 07:57 PM

weswood

05-21-2011, 11:27 PM

Have you noticed that all the Christian nuts that believe in the Rapture are also certain that they will be Raptured?

That's kind of the whole point of being a Christian.

Never occurs to them that maybe God isn't interested in saving their insufferable selves.

I've been a lot of things in my life, but never insufferable.

Targan

05-22-2011, 12:10 AM

I've been a lot of things in my life, but never insufferable.

Well there's still time to be, if you try hard enough :D

weswood

05-22-2011, 01:42 AM

Well there's still time to be, if you try hard enough :D

Hehehehe
Oops, typo. Should have read "I've been called a lot of things in my life...."

headquarters

05-22-2011, 06:25 AM

The problem with Christians is a distinct lack of paitience, every five minutes they expect the end.

We've been waiting for Ragnarok for centuries, it'll come when it comes and utill then i'll eat, drink and be merry.

Interesting difference in religious thinking - in Norse mythology what you do upon the day of Ragnarok ( on the vale) is what counts, not how you prepare your self piously for the day.

Of course - you might not get there as 3 years of war, a 7 year winter and multiple natural disaster will wipe out pretty much everything before the final battle begins - featuring the gods of old, jotuns and whatever else can be pressed into service ( Twilight 1000 ).

In the end everything living will die- AND all the gods - except for a couple of people that will re colonize our planet and start it all over again.

Ragnarok - I think it is one of the more hard core end of days around :)

headquarters

05-22-2011, 06:32 AM

That's kind of the whole point of being a Christian.

I've been a lot of things in my life, but never insufferable.

There are no atheists in the fox holes..I mean- a mans faith is his own businiss.

The rapture - well I guess we will find out. A lot of christian factions do not recognize it as part of the curriculum though, the Catholic church and the Lutheran World Federation etc , then again some do.

weswood

05-22-2011, 11:29 AM

There are no atheists in the fox holes..I mean- a mans faith is his own businiss.

The rapture - well I guess we will find out. A lot of christian factions do not recognize it as part of the curriculum though, the Catholic church and the Lutheran World Federation etc , then again some do.

I wasn't aware of that. Kind of strange, believing in Christ coming back to Earth is a major part of Christianity to me.

95th Rifleman

05-22-2011, 01:06 PM

I wasn't aware of that. Kind of strange, believing in Christ coming back to Earth is a major part of Christianity to me.

Christ coming back is a signature belief in all Christian sects.

The concept of the rapture is mostly American. Essentialy they believe that all of God's chosen will be swept up and transported to Heaven during one, dramatic event. Everyone left is, well, screwed.

The Catholic church subscribes pretty much to events as stated in revelations.

weswood

05-22-2011, 01:34 PM

Christ coming back is a signature belief in all Christian sects.

The concept of the rapture is mostly American. Essentialy they believe that all of God's chosen will be swept up and transported to Heaven during one, dramatic event. Everyone left is, well, screwed.

The Catholic church subscribes pretty much to events as stated in revelations.

I have to admit I'm not always as good a Christian as I should be, I haven't quite read Ravelations yet as a whole. Bits n pieces, sure, but I've just started trying to read the whole Bible.

mikeo80

05-22-2011, 08:45 PM

[QUOTE=mikeo80;33999]More Beer!
/QUOTE]

Well, it seems that we made it in one piece. Maybe it was that last cold brew that convinced God that maybe Man had invented one thing that was worth saving??? :D

My two cents worth

Mike

Legbreaker

05-22-2011, 09:27 PM

Wait one! It appears there's another eruption in Iceland which is threatening to black out the skies again as it did last year!
Perhaps this particular nutjob was only out by a day? ;)

The end is nigh! Repent your sins!

Targan

05-22-2011, 09:54 PM

The end it nigh! Repent your sins!

Oh dear. That's going to take me a while...

bobcat

05-22-2011, 10:08 PM

if the rapture is over why did i have to PMCS my truck?

Targan

05-22-2011, 10:21 PM

The eagle has landed! Oh wait, that's a raptor, not the rapture. My bad :D

dragoon500ly

05-23-2011, 06:52 AM

Well, after waiting with baited breath for all of 0.2 seconds...it appears that the Rapture did not occur as sceduled. A reliable source has confirmed that the Family Network is re-reading its goat entrails to find the actual date and time of the Rapture.

Sooooo...

It looks like all of you sinners out there have yet another chance to repent your sins and mail your tax-deductible donation to the Family Network and assist them in their God-given quest to scare the c**p out of everyone!

And what a pity!

I was kinda looking forward to the Zombie Librarians!!!!!

:D

StainlessSteelCynic

05-23-2011, 07:53 AM

You guys aren't out of it yet. From what I hear tell, 21st May is only the START of the rapture. There will be an increasing number of natural disasters culminating with the destruction of the Earth on 21st October 2011.

I ain't worried though, I'm a practicing drunken delusionist, I take my spirit via a bottle until the world is a round plate supported on the backs of four elephants who are in turn carried on the back of a giant space turtle and I am a meat popsicle.

(1 point for anyone identifying the popsicle reference and 4 points for the space turtle)

95th Rifleman

05-23-2011, 07:59 AM

StainlessSteelCynic

05-23-2011, 08:05 AM

My money is on the Mayans getting it right.

Sorry, I can't agree. The Mayans pretty much got their End Of The World in the 1500s. I think the 512 year margin is just a little too big to take as 'acceptable error margin'! :p

dragoon500ly

05-23-2011, 08:10 AM

Sorry, I can't agree. The Mayans pretty much got their End Of The World in the 1500s. I think the 512 year margin is just a little too big to take as 'acceptable error margin'! :p

I don't know....you've never suffered through an Internal Revenue Service audit!!!!

weswood

05-23-2011, 08:27 AM

I ain't worried though, I'm a practicing drunken delusionist, I take my spirit via a bottle until the world is a round plate supported on the backs of four elephants who are in turn carried on the back of a giant space turtle and I am a meat popsicle.

(1 point for anyone identifying the popsicle reference and 4 points for the space turtle)

No idea on the popsicle thing, but I believe I read about the space turtle in a couple of Stephen Kings books, IT comes primarily to mind. But what is the space turtle standing on?;)

Legbreaker

05-23-2011, 09:06 AM

Yawn, that would be Korben Dallas in one of the better movies Bruce Willis starred in, The Fifth Element.
As for the turtle, that can only be Terry Pratchett's fault! ;)

pmulcahy11b

05-23-2011, 12:16 PM

Do zombie librarians still wear the pencil skirts, hair up, and glasses? That would fill me with an intriguing mix of horror and longing.

Webstral

Yep, and they're constantly intoning you to be quiet as they beat you to death with heavy books.

pmulcahy11b

05-23-2011, 12:19 PM

You know, it occurs to me that librarians must have decent upper body strength from moving around all those books.

StainlessSteelCynic

05-23-2011, 06:02 PM

Yawn, that would be Korben Dallas in one of the better movies Bruce Willis starred in, The Fifth Element.
As for the turtle, that can only be Terry Pratchett's fault! ;)

Hmm, it occurs to me that you spend far too much time watching sci-fi movies and reading books by humorous British authors... :p

Oh, wait, that's not you I'm talking about, that's me... :o

Correct on both references!

Panther Al

05-23-2011, 06:13 PM

Yawn, that would be Korben Dallas in one of the better movies Bruce Willis starred in, The Fifth Element.
As for the turtle, that can only be Terry Pratchett's fault! ;)

As far as the movie goes, I couldn't agree more. While I like a lot of his stuff to the point where I have no worries about watching - even if I don't go out of my way to do so, the Fifth Element is the exception. Weird, wonky, but really really good.

Big Badda Boom!

Targan

05-23-2011, 07:29 PM

I've read somewhere that at the time of its release The Fifth Element was the most expensive French film ever made.

dragoon500ly

05-24-2011, 10:40 AM

Well, it turns out that the Rupture didn't occur on time due to an error. Most likely involving the drinking of tea leaves instead of reading the tea leaves.

Instead, the Rapture has been rescheduled for October 21st, 2011 in order to give all of those sinners out there time to get their lives in order. The Family Network in no way recommends that its members max out their credit cards, sell off personnel belongings or incur huge debts, because, to be frank, this is the second time that they have made this claim and everybody is afraid of the "Strike Three! You're Out!" rule recently discovered in a tea bag reading held this weekend.

Since, as a former cavalry trooper, I do not have to worry about my entrance into heaven (Sorry Saint Peter....I've served my time in Hell!). I plan on sitting back on a sunny beach, with my family, and sipping cold drinks served in pineapples with those cute little umbrellas and watching the mayhem insure.

Happy October 21st, 2011 and if I owe you money....the check will be posted on the 22nd!

:rolleyes:

mikeo80

05-24-2011, 11:48 AM

I plan on sitting back on a sunny beach, with my family, and sipping cold drinks served in pineapples with those cute little umbrellas and watching the mayhem insure.

Happy October 21st, 2011 and if I owe you money....the check will be posted on the 22nd!

:rolleyes:

I'm with Dragoon500!!!! :D

Although, I think I will be sipping on a single malt scotch.

Or, to quote from George Thorogood:

"One Bourbon, one Scotch, and one Beer!"

:firedevil

My two cents

Mike

simonmark6

05-24-2011, 01:18 PM

I'm not too worried about the Mayans. The kids in my school are obsessed with the world ending in 2012 and some quote the Mayan calender theory. I explained the fact that they had about five hundred or so years left on the clock so the conversation could have gone:
Mayan Astrologer 1: Hey, Paco, we need to get the next thousand years of the calender done...
Mayan Astrologer 2: Don't be soft, we've got five hundred years left before we run out already, let's go see those funny white people, we can finish the calender tomorrow, what's going to happen? It's not the end of the world...

To back up my theory I pointed out that the whole T2K crisis came about because no one thought about what would happen if people wanted to use their computers after 1999...

95th Rifleman

05-24-2011, 06:43 PM

Mohoender

05-25-2011, 01:10 AM

I'm definitely with Rifleman on that one.:cool:

weswood

05-25-2011, 05:24 PM

Never understood the fascination with the end of the world. It's going to happen sooner or later, if it happens later I'll probably be dead and won't have to worry about it. If it happens sooner it's gonna kill me so I don't need to worry too much about it anyway.

Yep. I always figured if T2K type war ever actually happened, I'd be toast anyhow. My home town is a target, either 3 or 5 kt if I rember right.

Raellus

05-25-2011, 05:50 PM

LBraden

05-25-2011, 06:37 PM

In reference to the "Nuclear War" situation, be it T2K, T2013 or "real nuclear war", I know I would be dead, not instant, but I do have that backup, but I know we would be COVERED in radiation here, as I live in a small town called Castleford in West Yorkshire in the UK, its only about 5 miles from Leeds, then you have a tonne of old "mechanical yards" areas here, since the mining dried up and factories moved to China for cheap labour, this area has suffered, but under the T2K and T2013 timelines, I doubt that would have happened.

mikeo80

05-26-2011, 08:15 AM

Yep. I always figured if T2K type war ever actually happened, I'd be toast anyhow. My home town is a target, either 3 or 5 kt if I rember right.

I agree with Weswood. I live about 8 miles/15 km from Fort Bragg, NC. If the balloon goes up, and I am at work, (ON Ft. Bragg) there will be a quick flash and I'm toast. If I am home, the big flash, then a lot of if, then, maybe's as to what happens next.

Mohoender

05-26-2011, 09:41 AM

I agree with Weswood. I live about 8 miles/15 km from Fort Bragg, NC. If the balloon goes up, and I am at work, (ON Ft. Bragg) there will be a quick flash and I'm toast. If I am home, the big flash, then a lot of if, then, maybe's as to what happens next.

You and Weswood are lucky guys. I live a few miles away from a potential target but, due to the mountainous area I'm living in, I have little chance to be toasted. I, however, be cooking for a few days before passing out.:D

Panther Al

05-26-2011, 01:43 PM

Reminds me of a conversation I had years ago while I was living at Fort Carson (Colorado Springs). One of the guys pointed out that they would be fine, since the books said the Springs Survived, and that they was using Fort Carson as a operations base.

I asked him a number of things:

One, How many Megatonnage was dropped on NORAD? Something like 3MT he said. "Right" I go, "Step outside shall we?" And we step out of the game store located in Northern Colorado Springs. I point to the south southwest, at a mountain top covered in antennas, "Whats that?" I ask, He goes, "NORAD." "Right, and whats 3 miles in that direction?" I follow up, pointing to the east, "Its the AFB where all our satellite stuff, like, oh... GPS.. is run from. And those tracks there? Main choke point in rail traffic going North South in the west. Do you really think if they dropped 3 Megatons on the pair of targets in this city that rates primary attention, that Fort Carson - which if you stand at gate one can put lead from a .50 on the front gate of the NORAD complex - and the city itself, which is a 10-15 minute drive during rush hour from the AF Academy at the far north to NORAD at the SSW corner of the city would still be here?"

He gave no comment. :)

Abbott Shaull

05-26-2011, 09:01 PM

I agree with Weswood. I live about 8 miles/15 km from Fort Bragg, NC. If the balloon goes up, and I am at work, (ON Ft. Bragg) there will be a quick flash and I'm toast. If I am home, the big flash, then a lot of if, then, maybe's as to what happens next.

LOL I would be too. We live a block from the Soo Locks... Not one of the first targets, but would still be up on the list...

Abbott Shaull

05-26-2011, 09:06 PM

mikeo80

05-27-2011, 05:55 AM

LOL... It is so fun when you point out something that obvious...

I think the appropriate response to this is the following truism:

Don't confuse the issue with facts.

:D

My two cents

Mike

pmulcahy11b

05-27-2011, 06:07 PM

By the T2K timeline San Antonio had three secondary targets and a tertiary target: Randolph AFB (Air Training Command and a SAC dispersal base), Kelly AFB ( heavy aircraft maintenance depot and also a SAC dispersal base), Ft Sam Houston (8th Army HQ, MEDDAC HQ, and primary training ground for medics, including SF medics), and Lackland AFB (Air Force basic training, and first stop for PJs in training, as well as being the primary school for training military dogs). I don't think the scenario in Red Star, Lone Star would have actually taken place.

Panther Al

05-27-2011, 09:12 PM

I recently re-read a lot of the old 1ed stuff, and I have to say, it left me scratching my head a good bit. Beyond the idea that Colorado Springs and Fort Carson surviving (And NORAD to boot) a 3mt wakeup call, there was a lot there that didn't make a lot of sense. Oddly enough, NA wasn't one of those things more than the scale of it. I can easily see a some wacko with some brains doing something like that.

WallShadow

05-27-2011, 09:40 PM

About 20 years ago I was living in Chambersburg, PA, which is
--just outside Letterkenney Army Depot (missile refurbishment, M109 overhaul, ammo disposal, and vehicle mothballling in huge oil-tank-like controlled environment structures). Rumors abounded among the locals about onsite underground hardened C-3 bunkers, anti-aircraft missile batteries concealed by innocent-looking buildings or houses, and many other interesting postulations.
--about 18 miles northwest of Ft.Ritchie, MD (support facility for Site R),
--25 miles NW from Raven Rock/Site R/Alternative Joint Communication Center/"little Pentagon",
--35 miles NW from Camp David,
--45 miles from Fort Detrick (Class 4 lab with lots of biowarfare goodies),
--20 miles N of Hagerstown, MD where Fairchild Aircraft was building the A-10 Warthog at the time.
--30 miles SW from the Carlisle Barracks/Army War College, and
--15 miles NW from Site Cannonball, a hardened communications relay/possible emergency relocation site.

Not to mention 50 miles W of BMY in York, PA (producing M88 Hercules and M109 SP guns), 60 SW of the PA National Guard HQ in Harrisburg, and 80 SW of Ft. Indiantown Gap.

Not the bullseye, but in the midst or vicinity of several fairly nice and juicy targets.
"Collateral Damage", anyone?

dragoon500ly

05-28-2011, 08:44 AM

Not to mention that the Soviet Military Attache got a speeding ticket there back in 1979....and he's now the Targeting Officer for the Strategic Missile Force....

Payback?

dragoon500ly

05-28-2011, 08:47 AM

Legbreaker

05-29-2011, 09:21 AM

Once again, the maps and target lists as published only show weapons of 500 klilotonnes and up (with a few exceptions). There's a LOT of strikes which aren't shown to allow the GM some flexibility and to keep players in the dark.
Just because the books don't specifically say a particular location was nuked, doesn't mean it didn't get hit with a smaller warhead.

Sanjuro

09-07-2011, 04:25 PM

Rainbow Six

09-08-2011, 09:10 AM

I'm watching a documentary on the OBL mission (UK Channel 4) right now; it talks about the helo crash and confirms that the cause was the airflow from the rotor being trapped in the confined space of the compound- they don't use the term vortex ring, but that is it.
I like being right!

LOL...I watched the same programme...when they started talking about the helo crash I thought "that's exactly the way Sanjuro called it"!

HorseSoldier

09-08-2011, 09:08 PM

Oddly enough, NA wasn't one of those things more than the scale of it. I can easily see a some wacko with some brains doing something like that.

New America in T2K is pretty closely cloned off of the real life National Alliance and their leader, William Pierce (whose only real main stream notice or notoreity is that he authored the Turner Diaries that Timothy McVeigh was fond of) -- only with the membership (and, I assume, the prep for the apocalypse) cranked up a lot.

If I remember right, Pierce even maintained a retreat in West Virginia, a la Hughes in Kidnapped before his death and the subsequent collapse of National Alliance into squabbling factions and such.

WallShadow

09-09-2011, 08:41 AM

New America in T2K is pretty closely cloned off of the real life National Alliance and their leader, William Pierce (whose only real main stream notice or notoreity is that he authored the Turner Diaries that Timothy McVeigh was fond of) -- only with the membership (and, I assume, the prep for the apocalypse) cranked up a lot.

If I remember right, Pierce even maintained a retreat in West Virginia, a la Hughes in Kidnapped before his death and the subsequent collapse of National Alliance into squabbling factions and such.
+
I just Googled the National Alliance website--they aren't shy about who their target audience is!