M67 90mm recoilless rifle

[ShadoWarrior]

Does anyone have TW 2013 stats for the M67 90mm recoilless rifle that US airborne troops are now using?

[simonmark6]

It's on Paul's site under US rocket launchers.

[ShadoWarrior]

TW 2013 stats, please, not TW 2000.

[Panther Al]

Good grief. I didn't even think we would still be using those old things. I knew we did in Berlin for the longest while (Mid to late 80's I think?), but that was it. Didn't think we would keep them around to get used over in Afghanistan. I wonder if we made new ammo for it, or going through old stocks - though I hope they had been given a solid QC lookover before issue if that was the case.

[pmulcahy11b]

The 82nd Airborne does not use the M67, AFAIK. The Rangers used to, but has since replaced them with the M3 Carl Gustav launcher. I imagine if the Airborne picked up the recoilless rifle, they too would use the M3.

[ShadoWarrior]

The 101st (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?194551-101st-Airborne-Division-adds-M67-90mm-recoilless-rifle-to-their-Weapons-Arsenal) does.

[HorseSoldier]

Someone wasn't cool enough to rate new production Goose Guns as now used by Rangers, SF and whoever else. So they found some 90mm recoilless guns somewhere in storage and dusted them off. I'm amazed we still have ammo for the things.

[pmulcahy11b]

The 101st (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?194551-101st-Airborne-Division-adds-M67-90mm-recoilless-rifle-to-their-Weapons-Arsenal) does.

Yeah, but the 101st isn't airborne anymore. They just think they are.

Sounds like we're getting to the "pull the old crap out of storage" situation...

[Legbreaker]

I'm fairly sure an old 90mm is good enough to give the current opposition forces a bad hair day...

[Tegyrius]

My heavy weapons design is a bit rusty and I'm running off Wikipedia and its sources, but try this:

Class it as a reusable rocket launcher (recoilless rifles don't exist as a discrete weapon class in Reflex).

The optic is a Mag-1 telescopic sight (factored into Speed)

M67 Recoilless Rifle

Capacity 1 (si)
Range Tight/Open
Speed 4/7/10
Bulk 4
Weight 17 kg
Barter Value GG550
Street Price $2,200

90mm Recoilless Rifle HEAT

Damage 45
Explosion Radius 3m, Blast 5, Frag 2
Weight 3.1 kg
Barter Value GG40
Street Price $400

90mm Recoilless Rifle Canister

Weight 1.8 kg
Barter Value GG80
Street Price $400

Inside CQB range, the round hasn't yet separated - treat a hit as a single solid projectile with Damage 24 and Penetration x2. At 25 meters from the muzzle (the CQB/Tight boundary), the round begins separating. From that point, it inflicts its primary effects in a 30-degree cone (yes, I know it actually spreads in an 8-degree cone, but try drawing an 8-degree cone on a dry-erase hex map). Through Tight range, everything in this cone takes a Frag 8 effect; through Medium range, everything in the cone takes a Frag 3 effect. Each projectile has Damage 3 and Penetration Nil.

- C.

[ShadoWarrior]

Thanks!

[Tegyrius]

No prob. Sorry it took me so long to get back to this.

I'm not especially fond of the low lethality of the flechette hits, but 8-grain projectiles aren't going to do a lot of damage individually. Let me know how it works out in play and I may take a look at adjusting that to represent multiple individual projectiles with each Frag "hit."

- C.

[95th Rifleman]

Afghanistan (and to a lesser degree, Iraq) has taught the west that their high-tech toys and gadgets might not be worth the money spent on them.

The old recoiless systems are bloody good and very effective against the kind of positions the taliban like to fight from. There is nothing in the world quite as fascinating as the ingenuity of the average soldier.

Back in the Falklands the Paras used the Milan anti-tank missles as bunker-busters against the argies (who had a distinct lack of tanks).

[StainlessSteelCynic]

They did have some of these though,

http://wargaming.info/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/modern/falklands/argentine_aml90.jpg

Yeah yeah, they only had 12* of them and the 66mm LAW rocket can stop them pretending to be little tanks and the M2 Browning can turn them into Swiss cheese but still...
And those Milans were probably getting close to their use-by date so somebody had to fire them off before they went bad... :p


:D



* 6 at Port Stanley and 6 at Moody Brook. Vehicle in question is the Panhard AML-90

[pmulcahy11b]

Someone wasn't cool enough to rate new production Goose Guns as now used by Rangers, SF and whoever else. So they found some 90mm recoilless guns somewhere in storage and dusted them off. I'm amazed we still have ammo for the things.

It's those huge government warehouses! (Like on Raiders of the Lost Ark.) We probably have old Kentucky Long Rifles packed in Cosmoline in them, along with powder and ball.

[Legbreaker]

Not everyone carries a .50 cal in their back pocket though. Against an enemy force without anti-armour of even pitiful capability, those things would be true battlefield bullies.
Of course there's not many places on the planet any more where the soldiers don't routinely carry weapons more capable than a water pistol.

[Brother in Arms]

Id like to know how many M67's are in private hands in the U.S. it would be something one could reload for if they knew how. I like the low tech aspect of that weapon but the Carl Gustave M3 is by all accounts a much better weapon.

[Schone23666]

It's those huge government warehouses! (Like on Raiders of the Lost Ark.) We probably have old Kentucky Long Rifles packed in Cosmoline in them, along with powder and ball.

It does make you wonder what ELSE they still have locked up in some of those vast depots and warehouses, doesn't it?

[Schone23666]

It may be comparing apples to oranges, but if one is surprised that certain old weapons get occasionally dusted off for refurbishment and use:

The Browning M2HB heavy machine gun began undergoing designs and trials around 1918, and began seeing mass production in 1933, and can be found around the world these days, including in the U.S. military. They've been fudging around with possible replacements here and there, but it doesn't look like it's going away anytime soon.

The M14 rifle began seeing use in 1959 or so and has continually popped up here and there, recently thousands of these were reissued to troops in Iraq and Afghanistan as DMR rifles (with refurbishment and modifications), though I'm sure anyone on the boards here who's been over there knows more about this.

These are just two examples, and granted they're firearms compared to the M67, but it's important to remember that one of the weapons that sees more use nowadays in this role, the M3 Carl Gustav ("Goose") came out around 1948 or so itself.

I guess the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies here. ;):D

[Brother in Arms]

Schone

Lets not forge the venerable but Awesome M-79 grenade launcher.

Marine Meu (SOC) Force Recon have used upgraded 1911 and 1911A1 since about 1985 to 2012.

I fully agree with you if aint broke don't fix it and the "Goose" as you put it sure aint broke.

[Schone23666]

Schone

Lets not forge the venerable but Awesome M-79 grenade launcher.

Marine Meu (SOC) Force Recon have used upgraded 1911 and 1911A1 since about 1985 to 2012.

I fully agree with you if aint broke don't fix it and the "Goose" as you put it sure aint broke.

Heh, good point. I was a little surprised as well when I started seeing pics of M79's still in use in Afghanistan. I'm assuming they did so because the M79 can accommodate some of the specialized longer 40mm rounds as compared to the M203?

Also, said discussion applies to the OPFOR side as well. The AK47's been around since the beginning of the Cold War, and isn't likely to go away anytime soon either.

[DigTw0Grav3s]

If we're discussing launchers, which 40mm grenade rounds are considered long, and don't work with the M203?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

If we're discussing launchers, which 40mm grenade rounds are considered long, and don't work with the M203?

Behold!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_40_mm_grenades

[WallShadow]

I was under the impression that the longer 40mm grenade casings were of substantially higher power and designed for the automatic grenade launchers. Use by small-arms launchers was ostensibly dangerous and therefore prohibited due to severe recoil forces.

[Schone23666]

I was under the impression that the longer 40mm grenade casings were of substantially higher power and designed for the automatic grenade launchers. Use by small-arms launchers was ostensibly dangerous and therefore prohibited due to severe recoil forces.

You're referring to the 40x53 round. That is correct, that's the high velocity round used for automatic grenade launchers like the Mk19. The low velocity rounds used by handheld launchers such as the M79 and M203 is the 40x46.

The problem, as far as I know, is that some new specialized 40x46 ammunition use particular shells that are a little longer than the "standard" and hence it's a bit more difficult to load them into a traditional M203 that has the breach/barrel slide forward only to a certain point in order to load the entire shell(though I've read of some improved variants that allow the breach/barrel to slide forward further, may be wrong on this). The M79's break-open action allows easier loading of rounds of varying length, though as stated one probably shouldn't try it with a 40x53...

[.45cultist]

I think that it would lend to the sense of decay to reissue the older items. Modern>Vietnam/Falklands>WWII/WWI.