Tanks + other large guns, gunner/loading scheduling question

[leonpoi]

This is something that's bothered me for a while, how do you schedule the gunner/loader actions on tank guns and other guns with a loadtime?

e.g. tank, main gun has load 2

Which of the following is the correct way to handle?
1)
TURN1: gunner fires, loader then starts load
TURN2: loader finishes load, gunner can now fire unaimed or otherwise aim
TURN3: loader starts loading again if gunner fired, otherwise gunner fires and we start again

2)
TURN1: gunner fires, loader assumed can't load after gunner fires
TURN2: loader starts load, gunner aims
TURN3: loader finishes load, gunner fires aimed shot

3)
TURN1: gunner fires, loader assumed can't load after gunner fires
TURN2: loader starts load, gunner aims
TURN3: loader finishes load, gunner does nothing
TURN4: gunner fires, loader assumed can't load after gunner fires

The effective ROF depends on what option one chooses.

[Legbreaker]

The weapon tables show a reload time. A time of 1 means that a shot can only be fired every second round. A time of 2 means every third round and so on.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, the gunner may aim during reloading (some Soviet tanks elevate to maximum while reloading).

For a reload time of 2, your 3rd option would be the correct one.

[leonpoi]

Thanks for the response. I'd like to agree but the (2.2) rules as written paint a different story. They say that the Rld is the number of reload actions that every loader must spend in order to load the gun.

According to this if a tank has a gun with Rld 2 then it should take the loader(s) 2 load actions. One of my problems with this could be this scenario, consider loader and gunners with Initiative > 6 = 2 actions:
TURN1: gunner fires (action 1), gunner loads (action 1), gunner loads (action 2), gunner fires (action 2).

So 2 shots in the same turn.

(assume that the gunner took an aim and then took opportunity fire in the same action so that the initiative steps are not out of sync)

One way out of this would be to say that the gunner and loader both need to be involved somehow - thus they both need to contribute load actions etc whatever....

[Adm.Lee]

Thanks for the response. I'd like to agree but the (2.2) rules as written paint a different story. They say that the Rld is the number of reload actions that every loader must spend in order to load the gun.

According to this if a tank has a gun with Rld 2 then it should take the loader(s) 2 load actions. One of my problems with this could be this scenario, consider loader and gunners with Initiative > 6 = 2 actions:

I think you mean Initiative < 6.

TURN1: gunner fires (action 1), gunner loads (action 1), gunner loads (action 2), gunner fires (action 2).

So 2 shots in the same turn.

(assume that the gunner took an aim and then took opportunity fire in the same action so that the initiative steps are not out of sync)

If the gunner could make 3+ actions, that works for me. Those are 30-second turns, so if loader had an initiative of 6, you could theoretically get 3 shots out. Good luck with that.

[Legbreaker]

I don't see that mulitple actions by high initiative characters really matters that much given that anything with a reload stat of more than 1 either has an autoloader, or is a crew served artillery piece with multiple loaders - the process can only go as fast as the slowest link.

[leonpoi]

I think you mean Initiative < 6.



If the gunner could make 3+ actions, that works for me. Those are 30-second turns, so if loader had an initiative of 6, you could theoretically get 3 shots out. Good luck with that.

Yep, I stuffed up here :o

I think you mean Initiative < 6. I actually meant >5.

If the gunner could make 3+ actions, that works for me.

TURN1: gunner fires (action 1), loader loads (action 1), loader loads (action 2), gunner fires (action 2).

[Legbreaker]

I think you'll find it impossible for the loader to act on the same turn as the gunner fires - you've got several tonnes of gun recoiling, not to mention that the gunner may not even fire the weapon before the loader might begin acting.

Turn 1 - gun fires
Turn 2 - loader begins reloading. Loader MAY be able to act again IF they have a high initiative AND the machinery enables loading in less than a few seconds. A hydraulic ram for example is likely to move at the same pace regardless of how fast the human loader can react.
Turn 3+ - loading is completed, gunner may fire.

It is probable that the high initiative character would be much more useful on the ground in an infantry type role. Given that only infantry types can possibly have greater than 6 Initiative in 2.2, their skills are also likely to support this.

Further, note that even if a driver has a high initiative, the vehicle still only moves a certain distance. A person running is not likely to cover double the distance of another lower initiative character and potentially break the land speed record.... Physical limits must apply.
I may even go further and say that recoil effects would continue to build in the turn, and effect the high initiative characters second action within said 5 second turn. Basically having a high initiative allows the character to react quickly, not circumvent the laws of physics.

[dragoon500ly]

Perhaps the real life standards would help to clarify. The standard for a US tank crew is to get one main gun round off every 5 seconds. This is the average time. During many Table VIII gunneries, I have witnessed loaders reload in generally half that time. The key, of course, is to have an experienced loader and the ergonomics of the tank.

On the M-60A1, the loader stands on the left side of the gun, ammo rack positioned to his right. A simple swing of his hips allows him to remove a round and then either flip the round 180 degrees or swing the round and insert it into the breech, automatically closing the breech while the loader slaps the safety into the fire position. Reloading is smooth, fast and a high rate of fire can be maintained.

The M-1 has the loader sitting on the left side of the gun, his right knee on a power switch that operates the blast door. He withdraws the round, swings 180 degrees or swivels and loads the round. The safety on the main gun is a physical arm that must be extended from the rear of the breech. By the book requires the loader to reach out and flip the safety on and then reload. IRL, the loader uses the nose of the round to flip the safety lever out of the way and then slaps it into the firing position as he opens the door and starts the reload.

The M-60A1 can fire much faster than the M-1, due to a simple little trick. The loader clicks the safety into the firing position and then makes several turns with a roll of wire, tieing the switch into the fire position. With the older APDS round, the loader can then do a little something called "vacuum loading".

The bore evacutor on the 105mm cannon pulls smoke out of the tube by using the force of the round's passage to fill the canister with air and then using the force of the passage to pull smoke out of the tube. Vacuum loading takes advantage of this by using that same force of out bound air to assist the loader in feeding the next shell into the chamber. An experienced loader can double his normal rate of fire. Please note that in spite of claims to the contray, this only works with the shorter APDS/TPDS round. I have never witnessed anybody able to vacuum load with the APDSFSDU round in either its 105mm or 120mm versions.

The best loader that I have ever witnessed was able to vacuum load 28 TPDS rounds within 60 seconds. To be sure, he had several advantages, he was 5'5" (at the time the minimum height), and was a power lifter with an upper body that had to be seen to be belived! Once would have been sheer dumb luck. But during that gunnery, he did this four times in one day. Afterward, it was joked that his tank had the only 105mm machinegun in Europe!

[Legbreaker]

I'm assuming that reloading while the tank is stationary is somewhat easier and therefore quicker than on the move?
It also seems reasonable to assume that in general, no more than a couple of rounds will be fired in any one minute given that the tank should be manoeuvring around the battlefield, supporting and supported by several other tanks and because of said movement, the terrain will be getting in the way on a fairly regular basis unless it's a flat, featureless plain).

[Targan]

Sounds like house rules should be applied. Bonuses to the ROF if the AFV is stationary, even greater bonuses to ROF if conditions are perfect (as in a range shoot or equivalent situation).

[Panther Al]

As others said, loading the main gun on a M1 can be done really quickly- I could manage 3 seconds for the first 4 or 5 rounds before slowing - assuming the gunner was able acquire and fire that fast. On the move it was more like 5 seconds with the same comments as before, and this was the standard we trained to, not to mention the bragging rights of being the fastest - which I wasn't.

So. Let's say you haves loader and gunner with high enough initiative to get two actions.
Action phase 6: gunner fires and then loader begins loading.
Action phase 3: gunner aims and the loader finishes loading.

At least that's how I would do it: with the loader yielding first action in action phase 6 if the loader and gunner having initiative 6. If the loader has a 5, then even easier.

[dragoon500ly]

I'm assuming that reloading while the tank is stationary is somewhat easier and therefore quicker than on the move?
It also seems reasonable to assume that in general, no more than a couple of rounds will be fired in any one minute given that the tank should be manoeuvring around the battlefield, supporting and supported by several other tanks and because of said movement, the terrain will be getting in the way on a fairly regular basis unless it's a flat, featureless plain).

That's another advantage of the M-1, the loader has a switch that he can hit that freezes the gun tube at the best angle for reloading. The gunner can still keep his sights on target, but when the loader slaps the safety into the fire position....you had better have any body parts that you want to keep out of the way of the breech because the computer moves the tube into alignment with the gunner's sight. So on the move, I'd give the M-1 a shorter reload time.

On the other hand, an older tank, such as a M-60A1, I'd add a second or two due to the juggling act that the loader has to do.

[leonpoi]

Ok, good stuff all of you I really value the feedback. I think for the 105 and 120mm guns the consensus is quite clear, can fire every other action = 6rnds/min or thereabouts.

How you achieve this 6rnds/min depends I guess on what you assume the Rld for these guns is. If you're using core rules Rld = 1, so assume that loading and firing cannot be done in the same turn. If Rld = 2 (say for e.g. Paul's rules) say that loading cannot be done in the turn of firing but firing can be done in the last turn of loading (but firer initiative will be limited by loader's initiative).

Now my next question, what about t-72, t-80, t-90 with autoloader? Core rules has Rld 2 but I read that they can fire 6-8rnds/min if the autoloader is actually working (otherwise 1-2 rnds/min).

[Legbreaker]

The rules are somewhat restricted by the 5 second phases/turns. While in reality it may take say 3.5 seconds, the rules basically require that time to be rounded up. If in reality a task is 6-7 seconds, again round up to ten seconds or 2 phases/turns.

What should be borne in mind is that in no universe is an exceptionally high rate of main gun fire going to be needed on more than a one off basis. It's exceptionally unlikely that a tank will need to fire more than a few rounds of AP type per minute, and even more unlikely any sort of HE round will need to be fired quickly (there are of course rare exceptions). Tanks also only carry a limited number of rounds so trying to fire off 28 rounds per minute is going to render the AFV combat ineffective in extremely short order.

For a tank crew in T2K to attempt a high rate of fire is even more insane given that resupply is next to impossible and they'd soon be rolling about in little more than an armoured target.

If as a GM you do allow high rates of fire for PCs, then consider that NPCs will also have the same ability to lay down the pain. PC life expectancy will take a tremendous dive and players would soon be spending more time rolling up new characters than actually playing them.

Now lets look at one of those rare exceptions - a PC tank crew stumbles across five enemy vehicles, all capable of inflicting significant damage, or destruction to the PC tank. The PC driver moves the tank into a position so that the gunner may engage all five enemy vehicles and the gunner fires his first shot (and luckily hits). The remaining four turn their weapons on the PC tank and let loose with just one shot each - battle over with one vehicle on each side a smoking mess.

What should be happening (ignoring the fact the PCs should turn and run from such overwhelming odds - but hey, they're PCs, they think they're indestructible), is all vehicles involved start jockeying for position, using the terrain to limit exposure and taking a single shot as and when the opportunity presents itself.

[dragoon500ly]

Now my next question, what about t-72, t-80, t-90 with autoloader? Core rules has Rld 2 but I read that they can fire 6-8rnds/min if the autoloader is actually working (otherwise 1-2 rnds/min).

When it comes to autoloaders there is a wide variety. One of the fastest ones happens to be one of the first operational tanks with an autoloader, the French AMX-13 light tank. It used a modified version of the 75mm cannon from the Panther tank of WWII fame and added two six-round revolver style loaders. I've seen these things fire twelve rounds in roughly fifteen seconds. The downside is that once the twelve rounds are fired, the crew has to reload them from outside the tank and, of course, its impossible to change ammo types once the drums are loaded.

The T-72/T-64 field an auto-loader, but it is crippled by the small size of the turret and the large size of the completed round. It loads the projectile and the propellent in two actions. Reports vary but seem to indicate roughly a round every ten seconds. The autoloader and its ammo racks are located under the main gun. This turned out to be a critical weak point as any round that penetrated the front armor or the armor under the gun tube, would set off the ammo rack. This is why a lot of the photos of these destroyed tanks shows them minus their turrets.