An Alternative Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom

[Rainbow Six]

Evening all,

As some of you may recall a couple of years ago I posted some pieces on an alternative non canon Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom and the attached documents form an update and an expansion to that work. Changes to the timeline I originally posted are relatively minor - basically I've moved the UK Capital to Winchester instead of Oxford (thanks Simonmark6 and DudeUK for that suggestion), changed slightly the area under HMG control (it now more accurately follows the canon SGUK) and generally tidied up a few bits I wasn't overly happy with in the original, mostly to do with the destruction of the central Government. I've also tidied up the order of battle for HM forces (thanks LouieD for your input to that) and added the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force. Other than that and the part on MI5, it's all new material, which I hope you'll find to be of interest.

Questions and comments are most welcome! The work is based on 01 June 2000 in a V1 timeline.

Part 1 - Timeline / Regional Guide

The Regional Guide is based on the Cold War civil defence regions, and uses county names in place at the end of the 80's, some of which have now changed. I had originally hoped to go into a fair degree of detail for each region, but unfortunately time has been my greatest enemy, so I've had to settle for a broader description of each region, though I have tried to include a few adventure "seeds". As this work focuses on the UK mainland only, Northern Ireland is not covered, other than in the timeline. I have changed the nuclear strikes very slightly - basically I've spared Birmingham but hit the ports at Felixstowe / Harwich and also High Wycombe (the latter because that was where I placed the Government's command bunker).

[Rainbow Six]

Part 2 - His Majesty's Government / HM Armed Forces / The Security Service / Scottish and Welsh Separatist Movements

Again, the listing for HM Armed Forces only refers to those units on the mainland that are still following HMG's orders. Some of the detail in this section was inspired by James Langham, while I'm indebted to LouieD for his input on the order of battle.

[Rainbow Six]

Part 3 - The Americans / the Soviets / the French

Short pieces on the three major foreign powers present in the UK. I plan to add the Dutch in the near future.

I'm also still working on Part 4, which will cover a selection of non Governmental lawful groups, e,g, the Norwich enclave, the Highland Coalition, and the Free City of Carlisle, and Part 5, which will cover marauder groups such as the Duke of Cornwall, Bloody Mary, and the North Preston Front. I hope to have all of that done by the end of the year.

Cheers

Dave

[James Langham]

Part 3 - The Americans / the Soviets / the French

Short pieces on the three major foreign powers present in the UK. I plan to add the Dutch in the near future.

I'm also still working on Part 4, which will cover a selection of non Governmental lawful groups, e,g, the Norwich enclave, the Highland Coalition, and the Free City of Carlisle, and Part 5, which will cover marauder groups such as the Duke of Cornwall, Bloody Mary, and the North Preston Front. I hope to have all of that done by the end of the year.

Cheers

Dave

Thanks for the attribution.

Really nice write ups.

Please tell me the North Preston Front doesn't have characters called Lloydy, Spock and Diesel...

[James Langham]

Part 2 - His Majesty's Government / HM Armed Forces / The Security Service / Scottish and Welsh Separatist Movements

Again, the listing for HM Armed Forces only refers to those units on the mainland that are still following HMG's orders. Some of the detail in this section was inspired by James Langham, while I'm indebted to LouieD for his input on the order of battle.

Great work - a few nitpicks

Should the Household Brigade be called the Guards Brigade?

22SAS doesn't have a Zulu Squadron - I assume this is deliberate, if not A, B, D or G Squadron should replace it.

I assume Comacchio's 51mm is mainly for illum, not many circumstances in nuclear weapon guarding or oil reg protection.

I would look at issuing some of the Welsh and Scottish militia .303s and double barreled shotguns, maybe with an SLR or L85 in the role of a squad automatic.

Looking forward to seeing more.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Please tell me the North Preston Front doesn't have characters called Lloydy, Spock and Diesel...

I was thinking it might be all quiet on that front :)

As an aside, I'd love a game of "Gurkha Tank Battle" :)

[schnickelfritz]

I am having trouble opening the one on HM Forces, but cn open the others. Can a fresh copy be uploaded or a .pdf file?
Thanks!

Other than that, awesome work!

-Dave

[schnickelfritz]

Scratch that-after several tries, got it to download completely. Happens sometimes. Thanks Microsoft!

[James Langham]

I was thinking it might be all quiet on that front :)

As an aside, I'd love a game of "Gurkha Tank Battle" :)

Makes me laugh!

[Rainbow Six]

Firstly, thanks all for your comments.

Great work - a few nitpicks

Should the Household Brigade be called the Guards Brigade?

Personally I just like the sound of the Household Brigade...to be honest I could almost see a scenario where different officers are sitting around a table in Salisbury after the Brigade is formed debating which number to use and the senior man (a Guardsman obviously!) just thumps the table and says "Damnit, we'll just call it the Household Brigade and be done with it!"

That said, I think the most accurate title would probably be 32nd (Guards) Infantry Brigade or possibly 56th (London) Brigade. I think I could probably be persuaded to change it to 32nd Guards (which is also what was used in the excellent canon orbat on the etranger site).

22SAS doesn't have a Zulu Squadron - I assume this is deliberate, if not A, B, D or G Squadron should replace it.

Yep, you're right - it's deliberate...my thinking here is that the "regular" Squadrons will all be deployed on operations worldwide so Zulu Squadron is raised as an ad hoc unit to take under command the handful of Special Forces types still in the UK. I chose Z purely because it was the last letter in the alphabet, which I thought gave it a feeling of being "improvised" - if that makes sense?

I assume Comacchio's 51mm is mainly for illum, not many circumstances in nuclear weapon guarding or oil reg protection.

Good point...

I would look at issuing some of the Welsh and Scottish militia .303s and double barreled shotguns, maybe with an SLR or L85 in the role of a squad automatic.

Again, good point...I'll rework that part...

And don't worry - there's no Lloydy, Spock or Diesel!

To be honest, my thinking for the Preston based marauder group was a) that I wanted to get away from calling every other marauder group the Butchers, the Headhunters, the Predators, etc, etc and b) I wanted to try and come up with something that suggested a hint of legitimacy about that group, particularly as they are fronted up by a pre war MP (the idea was loosely based on the relationship between the White Death and the Congressman (whose name escapes me) in Allegeheny Uprising)...so basically we know from reading the Regional Guide that the NPF are out and out marauders, but a group of PC's might not neccessarily know that. That kinda led me to the North Preston Front (there are a few other references to British pop culture dotted about here and there; maybe that one was a bit too tongue in cheek! :))

Cheers

[TiggerCCW UK]

(there are a few other references to British pop culture dotted about here and there; maybe that one was a bit too tongue in cheek! :))


Not at all - I like spotting the references and would usually include some in my own games.

[James Langham]

Minor quibble, Leicester would have 7 Royal Anglian not 3WFR (who are based in Chesterfield & Mansfield).

[Rainbow Six]

Minor quibble, Leicester would have 7 Royal Anglian not 3WFR (who are based in Chesterfield & Mansfield).

My orbat's based on the real life pre Options for Change orbat (with a few tweaks), so I have 7 RAR going to Germany with the 2nd Infantry Division at the start of the war.

I have 3 WFR remaining in the UK in a home defence role; they get sent to the Birmingham area after the nuclear strikes to try and keep order, but break up as a cohesive military unit during 1998. Different groups head in different directions, with one finishing up in Leicester.

Attached is a copy of my 1996 orbat. The tweaks were based on a suggestion of LouieD's, namely that the large "Volunteer" Regiments (Lowland, Highland, Yorkshire, and Wessex) revert back to their original Regimental names, so 3rd Battalion, Yorkshire Volunteers becomes 3rd Battalion, Duke of Wellington's Regiment, etc). That results in a modest expansion of the TA as four additinal Battalions are formed. I also have 1 and 2 Bns, London Regiment being raised, but no 8th Queen's Fusiliers - 1 LONDON goes to to Germany, while 2 LONDON is tasked for home defence of London (and gets toasted on Black Thursday).

Cheers

[James Langham]

My orbat's based on the real life pre Options for Change orbat (with a few tweaks), so I have 7 RAR going to Germany with the 2nd Infantry Division at the start of the war.

I have 3 WFR remaining in the UK in a home defence role; they get sent to the Birmingham area after the nuclear strikes to try and keep order, but break up as a cohesive military unit during 1998. Different groups head in different directions, with one finishing up in Leicester.

Attached is a copy of my 1996 orbat. The tweaks were based on a suggestion of LouieD's, namely that the large "Volunteer" Regiments (Lowland, Highland, Yorkshire, and Wessex) revert back to their original Regimental names, so 3rd Battalion, Yorkshire Volunteers becomes 3rd Battalion, Duke of Wellington's Regiment, etc). That results in a modest expansion of the TA as four additinal Battalions are formed. I also have 1 and 2 Bns, London Regiment being raised, but no 8th Queen's Fusiliers - 1 LONDON goes to to Germany, while 2 LONDON is tasked for home defence of London (and gets toasted on Black Thursday).

Cheers

Makes sense but I think you might need a reason why 3WFR head that way as it is the wrong way to go home (which is walkable). Maybe have a company based in Coventry who have a mission further east so are near Leicester when the nukes hit?

[Rainbow Six]

Makes sense but I think you might need a reason why 3WFR head that way as it is the wrong way to go home (which is walkable). Maybe have a company based in Coventry who have a mission further east so are near Leicester when the nukes hit?

Yep, I take your point. Mind you, 3WFR had Companies based in Derby and Nottingham, both of which get nuked, so it is possible elements of both of those Companies might make for Leicester.

Perhaps simplest solution would be to have one Company based in Leicester at the end of 1997 and they decide to just stay in situ as it all kicks off elsewhere. Particularly if they are either the Derby or Nottingham Company, who effectively have no home to go to...

[Matt W]

The RAF may still have a few aircraft for recon & liaison duty. The Vigilant T1 trainer (aka Grob G109) could be very useful

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grob_G_109

[James Langham]

Yep, I take your point. Mind you, 3WFR had Companies based in Derby and Nottingham, both of which get nuked, so it is possible elements of both of those Companies might make for Leicester.

Perhaps simplest solution would be to have one Company based in Leicester at the end of 1997 and they decide to just stay in situ as it all kicks off elsewhere. Particularly if they are either the Derby or Nottingham Company, who effectively have no home to go to...

3WFR also have a HSF Coy which could be deployed to protect something there.

Brainwave - there is a range complex on the outskirts of Leicester not far from the main TA Centre (there is also a cadet Training Centre that could be being used as transit accommodation) - it was the one used in Full Metal Jacket - company that is based at east Midlands Airport has gone there down the M1 for range work.

[Rainbow Six]

3WFR also have a HSF Coy which could be deployed to protect something there.

Brainwave - there is a range complex on the outskirts of Leicester not far from the main TA Centre (there is also a cadet Training Centre that could be being used as transit accommodation) - it was the one used in Full Metal Jacket - company that is based at east Midlands Airport has gone there down the M1 for range work.

Sounds good. The other solution that just occurred to me is that I think 7RAR had an HSF Company (E Coy?) which had detachments at Leicester and Lincoln.

Could be Leicester finishes up with a composite force which has elements of 7RAR's HSF Coy backed up by some elements of 3WFR. Maybe things are kicking off in Leciester in Dec 1997 and 3WFR troops are sent in to help 7RAR's HSF Coy keep order? Following the nuclear exchange perhaps 3WFR send a recce force to Nottingham and Derby which comes back and says "we're better off staying put boys." That sounds feasable to me....

There could also be assorted indivduals from the Defence Animal Centre at Melton Mowbray and the alternate RGHQ at Loughborough.

I'll rework that part...:)

Cheers

[Rainbow Six]

The RAF may still have a few aircraft for recon & liaison duty. The Vigilant T1 trainer (aka Grob G109) could be very useful

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grob_G_109

Cheers, Matt...I'll take a look at that.

[RN7]

Good work Rainbow Six

[RN7]

Hi Rainbow Six, had a good read through your articles. Good as always. Some ideas.

Timeline / Regional Guide
Nuclear Power Stations
Bradwell (East of England)
Chappelcross (Scotland)
Dungeness (South East England)
Hartlepool (North East England)
Heysham (North West England)
Sizewell (North West England)
Oil Refineries & Oil Storage Facilities
Hertfordshire (East of England)
Sullom Voe (Scotland)
Teeside (North East England)
Nuclear Facilities
Burghfield (South East England)
Capenhurst (North West England)
Chilton (South East England)
Culham (South East England)
Harwell (South East England)
Sellafield (North West England)
Winfrith (South West England)

All of these are likely to have survived intact as they were not targeted in the nuclear strikes on Britain. Nuclear power stations even partially operating would provide a lot of electricity by post-war standards.

Teeside Oil Refinery in the North East is fairly close to the North Sea oil rigs of which some are likely to be still operating. Its also just across the sea from the German North Sea ports and the BAOR. Fuel for shipping could bring a lot of British troops and heavy equipment back to Britain and consolidate HMG control of the North East and Scottish borderland fairly quickly.

Also in your version Birmingham survived, so some of the British car factories in the area might still be usefull. MG Rover at Longbridge, Land Rover and Jaguar at Solihull and Castle Bromwich, also Oxford, Goodwood and Sunderland are surviving automobile centres.

His Majesty's Forces

I'm assuming that in your version none of the BAOR divisions or component unit have been transferred back to England yet. Some RAF aircraft and maybe some other NATO aircraft could be held in storage on the isolated and relatively safe Orkney and Shetland Islands. Also I'd be certain that more than one RN nuclear attack submarine survived the war, although the others may not be based in British waters. Also its possible that at least one of the Vanguard SSBN's survived, maybe with a few missiles a well, as their area of operations in the North Atlantic south west of the GIUK gap would have been extremely hazardous for any sustained Soviet ASW effort. I also like the idea of one of the carriers surviving the war, HMS Ark Royal at Portsmouth. Others have also suggested the USS Theodore Roosevelt is also at Portsmouth with the British trying to find some nuclear fuel for her reactors.

The Security Services

MOD Police and Atomic Energy Authority Constabulary.

[Rainbow Six]

Hi Rainbow Six, had a good read through your articles. Good as always. Some ideas.

Cheers, RN7 - appreciate the feedback.



Timeline / Regional Guide
Nuclear Power Stations
Bradwell (East of England)
Chappelcross (Scotland)
Dungeness (South East England)
Hartlepool (North East England)
Heysham (North West England)
Sizewell (North West England)
Oil Refineries & Oil Storage Facilities
Hertfordshire (East of England)
Sullom Voe (Scotland)
Teeside (North East England)
Nuclear Facilities
Burghfield (South East England)
Capenhurst (North West England)
Chilton (South East England)
Culham (South East England)
Harwell (South East England)
Sellafield (North West England)
Winfrith (South West England)

All of these are likely to have survived intact as they were not targeted in the nuclear strikes on Britain. Nuclear power stations even partially operating would provide a lot of electricity by post-war standards.

Teeside Oil Refinery in the North East is fairly close to the North Sea oil rigs of which some are likely to be still operating. Its also just across the sea from the German North Sea ports and the BAOR. Fuel for shipping could bring a lot of British troops and heavy equipment back to Britain and consolidate HMG control of the North East and Scottish borderland fairly quickly.

Also in your version Birmingham survived, so some of the British car factories in the area might still be usefull. MG Rover at Longbridge, Land Rover and Jaguar at Solihull and Castle Bromwich, also Oxford, Goodwood and Sunderland are surviving automobile centres.

Good points - in my opinion the North East escaped the nuclear attacks relatively unscathed (although we don't know whether the area may have suffered heavily from conventional attack), and I have tried to reference that in the narrative where it mentions that under certain circumstances the North East could have the capability to rival HMG - what is lacking is a leader that can bring the region together (my vision for the area has several different leaders competing against each other, with each focused on his own fiefdom). Potentially they even have a highly effective army if they manage to win over the garrison at Catterick, whilst several of the facilities in the north west would be no doubt be attractive to North Preston Front even if, as you say, only partially operational.

As a bit of background here, when I started writing the Regional Guide (indeed when I first started this project a good number of years ago) my original intention was to go into a substantial level of detail on each region, that would have resulted in a Regional Guide that by itself would probably have stretched to a hundred pages. Unfortunately, I now have to be realistic and accept that I'm not a full time writer, and work and other commitments mean that I would never, ever have been able to see such a thing through to completion., so I've had to compromise...hence the "edited" version, which tries to condense each region into one - two pages...(oddly enough, though I live in Scotland, that section turned out to be one of the shorter ones!). I will take your suggestions on board, particularly the nuclear facilities, and will attempt to work the status of each into the text (even those away from nuclear targets may be non operational for various reasons), probably by way of adding them into the introduction to each region...

That's a good point about the car factories, although my vision of Birmingham is of somewhere that became very lawless very quickly after the nuclear exchanges, so a great many facilities that weren't attacked by Soviet missiles may have been burnt out or otherwise rendered useless by looters...Birmingham is not a good place to be in my T2K World...(BTW the sparing of Birmingham was intended to provide a non nuked urban location that could provide Armies of the Night type adventures, whereas London or Manchester both provide nuked urban locations). Again, the presence of the factory in Sunderland goes towards the North East's emergence as a regional power.


His Majesty's Forces

I'm assuming that in your version none of the BAOR divisions or component unit have been transferred back to England yet. Some RAF aircraft and maybe some other NATO aircraft could be held in storage on the isolated and relatively safe Orkney and Shetland Islands. Also I'd be certain that more than one RN nuclear attack submarine survived the war, although the others may not be based in British waters. Also its possible that at least one of the Vanguard SSBN's survived, maybe with a few missiles a well, as their area of operations in the North Atlantic south west of the GIUK gap would have been extremely hazardous for any sustained Soviet ASW effort. I also like the idea of one of the carriers surviving the war, HMS Ark Royal at Portsmouth. Others have also suggested the USS Theodore Roosevelt is also at Portsmouth with the British trying to find some nuclear fuel for her reactors.


Yes, with the notable exception of 2 PARA, I've deliberately avoided having the BAOR brought back from Germany. The reason for that quite simply is that I personally think that the moment the BAOR gets back to the UK the game is effectively up for all of the various marauder and separatist groups - it may take some time, probably years, but ultimately the Army will be able to bring the country back under control (one has to consider here the relatively small size of the UK and the overwhelming firepower advantage the troops will have, particularly as unlike the Americans all references to the BAOR coming home suggest they will bring their AFV's and other heavy equipment with them).

Personally I didn't find the prospect of a UK under effective military control to be such an appealing option to write material for...I prefer the idea of the Government's control being relatively tenuous as I think that creates more interesting campaign opportunities (that was also the reason I "backdated" events to the 01st of June 2000).

I completely agree with you about the submarines, and in the text section on the Royal Navy have attempted to write it in such a way that anyone using the material has the option to include more subs (HMG claiming that it has an SSBN, etc)...to be honest part of the challenge lay in the fact that whilst the work is absolutely non canonical in regards to events in the UK, I didn't want to introduce anything that might be a major game changer in regards to the canon history of the War itself (if that makes sense - changing the name of the British PM from Underhill (iirc) to Montgomery has no direct affect on the Battle of Kalisz (for example); I think in the end the biggest deviation from canon is probably my interpretation of events on the island of Ireland). Whilst I do like the idea of having Ark Royal tied up alongside at Portsmouth in a really bad way I think the existence of a Carrier also falls under that general category.

Certainly I envisage the Hong Kong Squadron still having an operational sub, and I've also said in the past that I'm keen on the idea of a sub prowling the South Atlantic to deter any aggressive moves against the Falklands (although both of those would lie outside the scope of this piece).

With regards to aircraft, again I wanted to try and keep a balance of sorts, but would think it's certainly reasonable to assume that there are other operational aircraft at various locations...I've intentionally only listed those that are still under HMG's command, even if those in Yorkshire and Scotland are effectively grounded...I'll cover Honnington and Coltishall in more detail in a separate piece on the East Anglian enclave, but I think Conningsby (for example) would still have a very limited number of operational interceptors (albeit again grounded through lack of fuel).



The Security Services

MOD Police and Atomic Energy Authority Constabulary.

Very good point - whilst I envisage that the majority of civilian police (I'm including these two forces in that category) will have been taken under military command in southern England, I will look into it further for other areas where they would make an interesting lawful or unlawful group.


Again, appreciate the feedback - any questions / comments, just fire away!

Cheers

[RN7]

Fair enough.

[Matt W]

And let's not forget Dorset!

You could get a pretty good campaign just fromm the following

the oil in Dorset

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wytch_Farm

or the Steam Engines in Dorset

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swanage_Railway

or RM Poole
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines_Poole

or the Defence Petroleum Centre (just outside West Moors, Dorset)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Moors

I would suspect that some of the units which used to support His Majesty's Royal Marines, (and the SBS) may have been moved from nearby RM Poole to garrison Wytch Farm. Alternatively, the Marines at the training base at Lympstone Commando (South of Exeter) could have simply relocated

Or these people ((Last one, I promise)
http://preservedtanks.com/Locations.aspx?LocationCategoryId=3035

[Rainbow Six]

And let's not forget Dorset!

You could get a pretty good campaign just fromm the following

the oil in Dorset

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wytch_Farm

or the Steam Engines in Dorset

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swanage_Railway

or RM Poole
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines_Poole

or the Defence Petroleum Centre (just outside West Moors, Dorset)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Moors

I would suspect that some of the units which used to support His Majesty's Royal Marines, (and the SBS) may have been moved from nearby RM Poole to garrison Wytch Farm. Alternatively, the Marines at the training base at Lympstone Commando (South of Exeter) could have simply relocated

Or these people ((Last one, I promise)
http://preservedtanks.com/Locations.aspx?LocationCategoryId=3035

Yep, I used Wytch Farm as HMG's primary source of oil on the basis that I think it would be a hecukva lot easier using onshore fields than offshore, with securty coming from a detachment of Royal Marines from the Commachio Group, who have been reinforced by personnel from Lympstone. Given the vital national importance of Wytch farm I also threw in an RAF Regiment Air Defence Squadron to protect against any (admittedly unlikely) air attack. I figure that plus garrisons at Bovington and Blandford Forum ensure Wytch Farm is secure.

I didn't know about the Petroleum Centre. Cheers for that - that's good to know...it would make a good HQ for 9 Supply Regt, RLC and also fits in nicely with the idea of the oil coming from Wytch Farm...if my understanding of the process is correct in the absence of a refinery, dirty but usable fuel can be produced by boiling crude, which would then go to West Moors for distribution...

[Matt W]

There's a good summary of Wytch Farm (and other fields) on this site
http://www.bpnsi.com/index.asp?id=7369643D312669643D313531

I didn't know about the Wareham oilfield. Presumably that is also going to be garrisoned.

Also. the fact that Wytch farm produces a lot of methane (natural gas) could be useful. I'd suggest that HMG would be looking to use this asset


I didn't know about the Petroleum Centre. Cheers for that - that's good to know...it would make a good HQ for 9 Supply Regt, RLC and also fits in nicely with the idea of the oil coming from Wytch Farm...if my understanding of the process is correct in the absence of a refinery, dirty but usable fuel can be produced by boiling crude, which would then go to West Moors for distribution...

Here's a video about "homemade" diesel in Nigeria. It does show the technique to be a pretty simple distillation process. I'm sure the scientists/engineers at Winfrith could develop something better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXeTw11fVpU

[Matt W]

The oil fields of Lincolnshire

http://www.bbc.co.uk/lincolnshire/asop/places/oilfields.shtml

[Sanjuro]

The Grob 109 is an ideal post-apocalypse aircraft because it can use minimal fuel- given a good thermal day it only needs to use the engine for launch, then glide.
Gliders and sailplanes could even be used without any fuel- bungee launch from a suitable hillside, and again given suitable weather you've got a 150mph recon machine, which is almost invisible and silent...

[dude_uk]

Excellent work rainbow! Watching this grow over the last few years has been a an absolute pleasure and I am glad that you have come to a final(ish) product.

Your decision to go with the RLC rather than its predecessors for combat service support is to be commended. I am still bogged down with finding pre options for change RAMC RMP and a new one the Intelligence corps. Which will take rather a long time!

Did you ever get a full ORBAT For the regular RMP?

I enjoyed your articles on soviet activity and of course your items on south west UK. I came up with the idea for a new RACTR a few weeks ago and came on here to find you had already beaten me to it!:D

I look forward to future developments. What's your next main effort?

[Rainbow Six]

Excellent work rainbow! Watching this grow over the last few years has been a an absolute pleasure and I am glad that you have come to a final(ish) product.

Your decision to go with the RLC rather than its predecessors for combat service support is to be commended. I am still bogged down with finding pre options for change RAMC RMP and a new one the Intelligence corps. Which will take rather a long time!

Did you ever get a full ORBAT For the regular RMP?

I enjoyed your articles on soviet activity and of course your items on south west UK. I came up with the idea for a new RACTR a few weeks ago and came on here to find you had already beaten me to it!:D

I look forward to future developments. What's your next main effort?

Cheers Dude...I'm glad you like it - it may have never got as far as it did if you and I hadn't bounced some ideas back and forwards a couple of years ago.

With regards to the RLC, I think it does make sense - I kinda reached the conclusion that even without Options for Change that was something that could have happened. I got some stuff from the various RMP Regiment's own official websites, most of which had quite good historical info, but they do seem to have went through more changes than a lot of other Corps! I struggled a bit on the Intelligence Corps as well, and eventually went with the theory that Int Corps personnel in southern England would come under the UKLF HQ headcount, so didn't list them separately.

BTW, with regards to the Royal Armoured Corps Training Centre Regiment, I've spent a considerable amount of time trying to think of a better name for them so if anyone has any suggestions, feel free to shout...I've thought about 5 Royal Tank Regiment but discarded that on the basis that it's a composite Regiment with tankies, Dragoons, Hussars, Lancers, etc all under command. I've also thought about something involving the Princess of Wales (bearing in mind in this work William is King and there is no Princess of Wales' Royal Regiment, so it seems to have a certain logic...Diana, Princess of Wales' Own Regiment, RAC...something like that).

I still need to complete the sections on marauders and large lawful groups, so that will probably be the next biggish thing...that should give a relatively rounded product...if I can get that done bythe end of the year I'll be reasonably happy....I haven't thought too far beyond that at the moment to be honest.

Cheers

[Matt W]

BTW, with regards to the Royal Armoured Corps Training Centre Regiment, I've spent a considerable amount of time trying to think of a better name for them so if anyone has any suggestions, feel free to shout...




Wouldn't they be the Royal Wessex Yeomanry? Or the Queen's Own Dorset Yeomanry?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen%27s_Own_Dorset_Yeomanry

[simonmark6]

Technically, a surviving Diana wouldn't be the Princess of Wales anymore. Here title would be quite confusing as her husband, the Prince of Wales didn't become King and therefore she was never a Queen or Princess Consort. I suppose she might get the title HRH, Diana, the King Mother, but I don't know if there's a precedent for that.

So...onto the naming of your composite regiment:

Bovington Brigade/Battalion/Regiment

Princess of Wales', the King Mother, Own (I love this one because I bet the rest of the army would call them the 'king mothers...)

Or, as stated, the Dorset or Wessex Yeomanry which already exist as TA companies.

But my vote is for the 'king mothers...

[Rainbow Six]

I already have the Royal Wessex Yeomanry on the order of battle as one of the TA Armoured Regiments (I used a suggestion of LouieD's here and reroled them from a UK home defence Recce Regt (as they are IRL) to a three Squadrom Armoured Regiment equipped with Chieftains as a stop gap measure following the outbreak of the Sino Soviet War; they then went to Europe during 97 to reinforce the BAOR).

There's also the fact that they're a composite unit made up of bods from a number of different Regiments (many of whom are in training roles after having been wounded in combat), so not sure how well they'd all take to being rebadged as Yeomanry (that was also the reason I eventually discounted 5 RTR, although it does still sounds feasable).

Good point about Diana's title...hadn't thought of that at all...as best as I can tell she might be entitled to "Queen Mother" as it refers to mother of the reigning Monarch regardless of the Monarch's gender), but I don't know whether or not she would have had to have been Queen Consort first. Best solution might be to make her a Duchess of somewhere? e.g. (and using Sussex for example purposes only)

1st Independent Armoured Regiment (Diana, Duchess of Sussex's Own)?

The Duchess of Sussex's Own Independent Armoured Regiment?

5th Royal Tank Regiment (Diana, Duchess of Sussex's Own)?

[simonmark6]

Yup, Duchess of so-and-so is the best option.

I still like the King Mother, sounds like a pre-teen trying to swear...

[dude_uk]

If you choose a less fancy title than probably 'Royal armoured corps battle-group' will do. Then name each of the squadrons after its parent regiment. 'A' Royal tank regiment squadron, 'B' Lancers Squadron etc.

Following on from the Wessex yeomanry discussion. I spun off the Dorset Yeomanry squadron and built a TA armoured regiment around it. This is based around the short period it existed as an independent unit during the early 1990's as an armoured replacement unit.

[Rainbow Six]

If you choose a less fancy title than probably 'Royal armoured corps battle-group' will do.

Good point. Maybe in creating a whole new Regiment I've been over thinking this too much. RAC Bovington Battle Group would work (which fits with an idea I had earlier of the rest of the Army referring to it informally as the Bovington Light Horse...), as would Task Force something. And they do have a Company of TA Infantry under command as well...

Following on from the Wessex yeomanry discussion. I spun off the Dorset Yeomanry squadron and built a TA armoured regiment around it. This is based around the short period it existed as an independent unit during the early 1990's as an armoured replacement unit.

Sounds interesting...

[dude_uk]

'Options for change' orchestrated reform in the TA yeomanry, Amalgamating two regiments, forming 2 new ones from other cap badges and spinning off two independent units form two squadrons. Keeping the two regiments that amalgamated as they are, I added-

-The Scottish Yeomanry (In real life made from the disbandment of an TA RTC unit)

-The Kings own Yorkshire yeomanry (Made from 7Th Light Infantry, in our timeline)

-The Dorset Yeomanry (Made the UK's first TA armored unit)

-The North Irish horse ( Independent Recce squadron)


I've included the document containing all the TA Lineage since 1967 if anyone wants it. I think it has been posted before http://www.win.tue.nl/~drenth/BritAr...ge/lineage.pdf.

I've been writing a document on the TA yeomanry, along with the Brief history of the Dorset yeomanry in the twilight war.

I'll see if can actually post it up and contribute for once before I ago away again. :rolleyes:

[Panther Al]

Been reading the thread and have enjoyed what I have seen so far, one thing though - I would think perhaps the NIH would be a Independent Armoured Unit, instead of a recce. My familiarity with the unit dates from WW2 when they was equipped with Churchills, far from a recce mindset and history.

[dude_uk]

Been reading the thread and have enjoyed what I have seen so far, one thing though - I would think perhaps the NIH would be a Independent Armoured Unit, instead of a recce. My familiarity with the unit dates from WW2 when they was equipped with Churchills, far from a recce mindset and history.

The north Irish Horse has been a squadron sized armoured Recce unit since around 1967 when the TA was reformed.

[Rainbow Six]

Guys, been looking into the Grob 109 today, but from what I can tell it didn't enter RAF service until 1999? Looks like the University Air Squadrons were still using the SA Bulldog up until then?

[Panther Al]

The north Irish Horse has been a squadron sized armoured Recce unit since around 1967 when the TA was reformed.

Huh. Thats what I get for not looking up its post-war organization.

[Sanjuro]

Don't get mixed up between the Grob 109 and 115. The Grob 109 is a motor glider- although you can fly along using the engine, it is intended to use the engine for takeoff, then switch off; the 109 is a pretty respectable sailplane, although it will not give as good a glide ratio as a dedicated modern sailplane. The 109 has been used by the Air Training Corps (RAF cadets, aged 13-21) and Combined Cadet Force (similar age group, affiliated to schools) since 1991.
The Grob 115, on the other hand, is a convenional aeroplane, designed to operate under power the whole time. It replaced the Bulldog (about which I have raved in a previous thread) in the University Air Squadrons (closest thing to AFROTC) in 1999; earlier in the 1990s the Air Experience Flights (also set up for ATC and CCF cadets to experience flight) were absorbed into the UASs when the deHavilland Chipmunks were retired.
Any of these aircraft could be found at either military or civil airfields in a T2k scenario; the advantage of the Grob 109 is that, as a motor glider, it uses far less fuel then the others- additionally, paint it pale grey and without engine noise to help track it, it is effectively invisible (and you thought your T2k campaign had no room for Stealth aircraft!).

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks Sanjuro...I had confused the 109 with the 115. Thanks for clarifying.

[Matt W]

THE POWER PLANTS OF DARTMOOR

There are no large-scale power plants west of Hinley Point. However, there are 3 small hydro plants just north of Plymouth

http://www.marytavyparishcouncil.co.uk/mtvillagetoday.htm#thepowerstation

Their combined output is a mere 3.34 megawatts: a pitiful amount by pre-war standards, but a major amount in the Twilight period

The sites are manned by SWEB engineers (South Western Electricity Board), REME soldiers and a detachment from Tavistock police. There are political problems in that there isn't enough power to go round...

[Rainbow Six]

THE POWER PLANTS OF DARTMOOR

There are no large-scale power plants west of Hinley Point. However, there are 3 small hydro plants just north of Plymouth

http://www.marytavyparishcouncil.co.uk/mtvillagetoday.htm#thepowerstation

Their combined output is a mere 3.34 megawatts: a pitiful amount by pre-war standards, but a major amount in the Twilight period

The sites are manned by SWEB engineers (South Western Electricity Board), REME soldiers and a detachment from Tavistock police. There are political problems in that there isn't enough power to go round...

Thanks Matt...that's useful info...

[Rainbow Six]

Evenin'

I'm well behind on my plans to complete the remaining parts of this by the end of 2011 (why does work take up so much time?!:)), but attached is an updated order of battle for HM Forces. There are no major changes, just a few amendments to the Army's support units and a rewrite of the RAF in which I've tried to incorporate some of the great suggestions put forward in this thread, particularly the Grob motor glider. I've also changed the Household Brigade to the 32nd (Guards) Infantry Brigade and introduced a Joint Services Command.

I've also added an additional two TA Infantry Battalions (4 RIR and 4 WFR) to bolster the forces in Southern England. I've added a comment to the timeline stating that those two Battalions were brought back from Germany after the 1997 nuclear exchanges to help maintain order.

Comments welcome.

[James Langham]

Good point. Maybe in creating a whole new Regiment I've been over thinking this too much. RAC Bovington Battle Group would work (which fits with an idea I had earlier of the rest of the Army referring to it informally as the Bovington Light Horse...), as would Task Force something. And they do have a Company of TA Infantry under command as well...



Sounds interesting...

A battlegroup would normally be a mix of infantry and armour so that fits. A few other options on the name:

1/RAC (Composite)
Holmes Force (named after the commander - use name of choice)
Bovington Composite Rgt (RAC)
Composite Rgt (RAC)

[Rainbow Six]

Cheers James.

As it happens I eventually ended up just sticking with RAC Training Regiment. After some thought I discounted Battlegroup as I thought it sounded a little too "aggressive" as long as the Regiment was in cantonment at Bovington and I thought something like 1st Regiment, RAC might open up a can of worms from a lineage point of view.

Still intend to have the rest of the Army call it the Bovington Light Horse though...:)

[rcaf_777]

Just wondering what dose Bovington have that is in running condition?

[simonmark6]

A long as the armoured Rolls Royce is still going, I don't give a monkey's chuff. I've loved that car since I had a ride in it during my first visit to Bovington in the late seventies. I go there now and look at the museum and say, "I remember when all this was fields..."

My school used to do Geography Fieldwork in Swanage in the early '90s and we used to do a day looking at how the army preserved the environment in the grounds. If I remember correctly, the vehicles being used at that time included:

FV 432
Cargo version of the M113
Fox armoured car
Rolls Royce Armoured car
Centurion
Chieftan
Early Chally

Those were what came out regularly, I also heard they had a couple of Panzers (Mk I and MK IV) and later they were receiving Soviet gear from Desert Storm and some of those worked, barely. The ones above are those that are likely to be working with maybe some of the other armoured cars being made to work, mostly variants of the Fox and Ferret as well as a Humber Pig and a Saladin.

There would have been a couple of dozen able to be used as pill boxes with guns running from 155mm to about 76.2mm.

There would also be a fair number of recovery vehicles around and a decent number of old timers that knew a lot about kit bashing: it was the time where the volunteers were basically rebuilding a Tiger Tank from scratch.

How many survived the war? Age would be against them but location would be a plus, good farmland, access to coastal fishing, some excellent defensive positions and yo can't spit without hitting a squaddie (not that I ever tried).

[Olefin]

An excellent work Rainbow Six - love the modifications you have made, ones that turn what was to me a very unsatisfactory Survivors Guide into one that is much more realistic and playable.

And having at least one operable SSN for the RN is not only very believeable but also supports what I will be posting as to an alternate timeline after Omega - that having only one surviving SSN in the whole world and one surviving boomer is just not realistic.

And having Ark Royal damaged and tied up at her berth isnt a huge deviation from canon as it sounds - for one even if you have her fixed up you still need to find fuel for her planes and for her.

One question - are the American forces you have here pre or post Omega?

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks Olefin, glad you like it.

My version is based on a 01 June 2000 date, so all the US forces listed are pre Omega.

if you read the section on the Soviets, I did think it might make for quite an interesting storyline if Major Ivanova of the GRU finds out about Omega in advance from her source at HQUSNAVEUR and has to try and find a way of communicating the information to her superiors in Russia.

[Rainbow Six]

I finally made a deadline...sort of. I know I'd originally hoped to have this done by Christmas, but I have managed to make my revised deadline of the end of May with a few days to spare!

Attached a selection of marauder groups. It's obviously impossible to list every marauder group in the UK, so I've tried to present a selection that can be used as "templates" so to speak and can be relocated to other areas should a GM wish ...so for example whilst I have placed the Beasts of the Moor on Ilkley Moor, they could be just at home on Dartmoor, Glencoe, etc, etc.

As the work evolved a few groups didn't make the final cut, most notably the North Preston Front, for whom I have six different drafts saved, none of which I was happy with, so when I figured that after two weeks I didn't have something that I thought was workable, perhaps I needed to reconsider (as a comparison, Bloody Mary took me two days to write, so sometimes something just feels "right" while something else feels as though it will never get there - the NPF fell into the latter category).

A few groups also changed their names from that put forward in the Regional Guide, most noticeably the Outlaws, which became Bandito Yankee (which is in keeping wih the original material). I will at some point post an updated timeline / Regional Guide (and timeline) which will correct these changes.

A few other general comments...the Border Reivers was a joint piece with RN7, who did at least half the work, if not more. Thanks mate for your help with that. The Duke of Cornwall and Konev's Wolves have both been posted before, but putting them here keeps everything in one thread (there are a few very, very minor changes to the Duke of Cornwall).

The gang of football hooligans in Birmingham is still in progress...I have the main group done, but I think I need to develop it slightly by doing some work on the other gangs in the City, so am holding back on that one for now.

Finally, some of the material, particularly Bloody Mary and the Beasts of the Moor are probably rated as a 15 (UK) / PG13 (US) at least.

As ever, comments / feedback etc most welcome.

[Rainbow Six]

And the others...

[James Langham]

Rainbow - great articles thanks for posting. Would you object if I took elements from them and incorporated them into my own UK Guide (which is more canon based).

If it would help, I lived in Birmingham from 1987-1992 and may be able to provide any help you need. I also did a two week camp at Oakhampton so might be able to provide the odd detail there too.

Please keep writing.

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks James. I don't mind at all if you want to take parts of it for your own piece - be my guest. I will get back to you on Birmingham - I'd be most grateful for any local insights you can offer.

I've been spending a fair amount of time on this recently so plan to follow my usual practice of taking a break for a couple of weeks (which goes a long way towards maintaining my domestic harmony!) then I'll continue work on the Birmingham piece and lawful groups (East Anglians, Highland Coalition, Free City of Carlisle, plus probably a few others). Also in the pipeline are short pieces on the Dutch Government in exile (long overdue) and the Secret Intelligence Service (I originally left the SIS out delibarately as I figured it didn't really fit in to a guide to the UK, but in hindsight I think it probably warrants a short piece).

[RN7]

Great work here Rainbow Six. I think I see a few things from films here as well.

28 Days Later, Essex Boys, Bonded by Blood, Rise of the Footsoldier, The Road, The Hills have Eyes and something of Def Con 4 perhaps!

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks RN7. You're right about some of the films, although believe it or not, I've never seen the Road. Bad Company was very definitely inspired by the soldiers in 28 Days Later (to the extent I included the pic of Chris Ecclestone as Sergeant Barrett). I had originally intended to make Barrett an officer (I do have a draft where he is a Major), but I didn't want him to turn int a clone of the Duke of Cornwall and I was happy with the backstory I came up with to have him as an NCO.

The Essex Boys are definitely an amalgamation of a number of influences, including aforementioned films, but there's also meant to be a hint of Saddam Hussein and (especially) his son, Uday in there as well.

The Beasts of the Moor are basically my interpretation of the Sawney Bean legend, which I believe was indeed the inspiration for the Hills Have Eyes (amongst others).

Another couple of films that have infuenced me are Doomsday, starring Rhona Mitra and a Paul Verhoeven film from the 80's called Flesh and Blood which stareed Rutger Hauer and was set in the Middle Ages - there are probably a couple of references to both of those dotted around here and there as well.

[James Langham]

Thanks RN7. You're right about some of the films, although believe it or not, I've never seen the Road. Bad Company was very definitely inspired by the soldiers in 28 Days Later (to the extent I included the pic of Chris Ecclestone as Sergeant Barrett). I had originally intended to make Barrett an officer (I do have a draft where he is a Major), but I didn't want him to turn int a clone of the Duke of Cornwall and I was happy with the backstory I came up with to have him as an NCO.

The Essex Boys are definitely an amalgamation of a number of influences, including aforementioned films, but there's also meant to be a hint of Saddam Hussein and (especially) his son, Uday in there as well.

The Beasts of the Moor are basically my interpretation of the Sawney Bean legend, which I believe was indeed the inspiration for the Hills Have Eyes (amongst others).

Another couple of films that have infuenced me are Doomsday, starring Rhona Mitra and a Paul Verhoeven film from the 80's called Flesh and Blood which stareed Rutger Hauer and was set in the Middle Ages - there are probably a couple of references to both of those dotted around here and there as well.

I thought Beasts of the Moor was very reminiscent of a Torchwood episode from series 1 although I can't remember the name.

[Matt W]

http://www.heritagerailways.com/Visits_Map.php


I had no idea there were so many of these

[Targan]

Another couple of films that have influenced me are Doomsday, starring Rhona Mitra and a Paul Verhoeven film from the 80's called Flesh and Blood which stared Rutger Hauer and was set in the Middle Ages - there are probably a couple of references to both of those dotted around here and there as well.

Flesh and Blood was a great film! A band of mercenaries whose leader (played by Hauer) comes to believe that he is the reincarnation of Saint Martin, the Patron Saint of Soldiers (well, in this film that's what they referred to him as, but I'm aware that in many Christian traditions the Archangel Michael is considered to fulfill that role). It's been so long since I saw it I'd completely forgotten about it until Rainbow Six mentioned it.

[Ironside]

I am using the Museum of East Anglian Life in my alternate UK.

eastanglianlife.org.uk/

There is a working forge and two matched steam ploughing engines.

[Brit]

You may find the film, 'The Last Valley', interesting. Set in the very 'T2K' Thirty Years War it depicts a band of mercenaries, of varying nationalities, finding a valley seemingly untouched by the war. Their leader is played by Michael Caine.

[simonmark6]

Snap, I thought of that one too and have used it several times as a basis for TW2K

[Rainbow Six]

Evening all,

Attached a few more pieces of my Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the UK – short pieces on the Dutch (with a nod to James Langham’s Naval Party 67; James and I bounced several ideas back and forth about the Dutch Royal Family’s passage to the UK) and the Secret Intelligence Service, together with three organised groups – Mebyon Kernow (which has been posted before on the Duke of Cornwall thread, but am reposting here to keep everything in one place), the Highland Coalition (a version of which has been posted before – this version is slightly expanded and is a joint work with RN7), and the East Anglians.

I’ve also included a contents page for anyone that’s following the whole thing and wants to have an idea of what’s included. Note the contents page includes the New Jerusalem Movement – I haven’t reposted that as it was only posted relatively recently.

These articles pretty much bring the main body of this Alternative Survivor’s Guide to a conclusion. I only have a limited amount of time to devote to it these days, and I think I’ve done what I set out to do when I first started to seriously work on it in late 2003 / early 2004 (although its origins go back further than that, to hand written notes going back to the 1990’s). My first intention was relatively modest – I wanted to expand on the order of battle for British forces in the UK, with a particular emphasis on the TA and HSF, which were largely overlooked n the official material. I did that, going through a series of drafts, several of which I posted to the previous incarnation of this forum at RPG Host.

As I did this various conversations began to take place, both on and off the board, and gradually I began to develop something that expanded my vision of the UK in T2K, based on the framework put forward in the official material. My intention is not, and never has been, to replace the official material or claim any sort of official status for my own work – the intention, quite simply, is to put forward an alternative take on the UK in T2K which gamers can use – or not – as they wish.

A number of people have supported and encouraged me in writing this material; many have offered feedback and suggestions, several of which I have attempted to incorporate into the work, and would probably never have thought of on my own. To all of you, thank you. In particular, I’d like to acknowledge LouieD, whose help has been invaluable, particularly with regard to the order of battle; RN7, who has contributed a huge amount of input, in particular to the Regional Guide; and DudeUK. This project did spend some time in hiatus from 2006 to 2008, and it would be fair to say that had DudeUK not posted a thread to the forum about the order of battle which caused me to dust everything off, it might well have stayed in hiatus. Both DudeUK and RN7 have also contributed text to various pieces.

So...I hope you enjoy reading this as much as I have enjoyed creating it. I may still tinker with it a little...I’m still not 100% happy with the Separatists piece and I have two pieces that I plan to start working on which I hope will eventually take the form of modules to accompany the guide – The Free City of Newcastle and Brummies of the Night (for those unfamiliar with the term, a brummie is someone from the City of Birmingham). But the main body of the work is now done and is presented here in its entirety. Your comments and feedback, are, as always, most welcome.

Dave Ross

[Rainbow Six]

And the three groups mentioned...

[James Langham]

Really good articles, it feels weird to be quoted! I may take a few other bits from your Dutch article if I may - I really can't see the need to create when such good ideas already exist!

Evening all,

Attached a few more pieces of my Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the UK – short pieces on the Dutch (with a nod to James Langham’s Naval Party 67; James and I bounced several ideas back and forth about the Dutch Royal Family’s passage to the UK) and the Secret Intelligence Service, together with three organised groups – Mebyon Kernow (which has been posted before on the Duke of Cornwall thread, but am reposting here to keep everything in one place), the Highland Coalition (a version of which has been posted before – this version is slightly expanded and is a joint work with RN7), and the East Anglians.

I’ve also included a contents page for anyone that’s following the whole thing and wants to have an idea of what’s included. Note the contents page includes the New Jerusalem Movement – I haven’t reposted that as it was only posted relatively recently.

These articles pretty much bring the main body of this Alternative Survivor’s Guide to a conclusion. I only have a limited amount of time to devote to it these days, and I think I’ve done what I set out to do when I first started to seriously work on it in late 2003 / early 2004 (although its origins go back further than that, to hand written notes going back to the 1990’s). My first intention was relatively modest – I wanted to expand on the order of battle for British forces in the UK, with a particular emphasis on the TA and HSF, which were largely overlooked n the official material. I did that, going through a series of drafts, several of which I posted to the previous incarnation of this forum at RPG Host.

As I did this various conversations began to take place, both on and off the board, and gradually I began to develop something that expanded my vision of the UK in T2K, based on the framework put forward in the official material. My intention is not, and never has been, to replace the official material or claim any sort of official status for my own work – the intention, quite simply, is to put forward an alternative take on the UK in T2K which gamers can use – or not – as they wish.

A number of people have supported and encouraged me in writing this material; many have offered feedback and suggestions, several of which I have attempted to incorporate into the work, and would probably never have thought of on my own. To all of you, thank you. In particular, I’d like to acknowledge LouieD, whose help has been invaluable, particularly with regard to the order of battle; RN7, who has contributed a huge amount of input, in particular to the Regional Guide; and DudeUK. This project did spend some time in hiatus from 2006 to 2008, and it would be fair to say that had DudeUK not posted a thread to the forum about the order of battle which caused me to dust everything off, it might well have stayed in hiatus. Both DudeUK and RN7 have also contributed text to various pieces.

So...I hope you enjoy reading this as much as I have enjoyed creating it. I may still tinker with it a little...I’m still not 100% happy with the Separatists piece and I have two pieces that I plan to start working on which I hope will eventually take the form of modules to accompany the guide – The Free City of Newcastle and Brummies of the Night (for those unfamiliar with the term, a brummie is someone from the City of Birmingham). But the main body of the work is now done and is presented here in its entirety. Your comments and feedback, are, as always, most welcome.

Dave Ross

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks James - help yourself to any bits that you want from the Dutch piece (or elsewhere for that matter).

Cheers

[mikeo80]

Rainbow,

The six articles are very well done! I know you said you are working on improvements. I, for one, can't wait!!!

I especially liked the mention in the Dutch section concerning Prince Willem Alexander and Prince Henry of Wales.

"The two princes are guarded by a contingent of Gurkhas..."

Guarded well indeed.

I would think that HRH and his government might not say WHERE the two Princes are....

But would make a very understated mention of the Gurkhas....

The two Princes are as safe as possible....

Even the most ardent Scottish/Welsh/Irish seperatist does NOT want to go up against the Gurkhas. EVER!!!

My $0.02

Mike

[pmulcahy11b]

Even the most ardent Scottish/Welsh/Irish seperatist does NOT want to go up against the Gurkhas. EVER!!!

My $0.02

Mike

As I recall, the Afghanis tried more than once to bring up Gurkhas on war crime charges (I remember thinking when I saw that how stupid it was) -- and the Taliban are reportedly deeply afraid of them.

[WallShadow]

IIRC, my wife was telling me about a WW2 incident where a Gurhka unit was being pinned down by a German machinegun nest with 5 Germans in it. One of the Gurkhas waited for the gun to stop for reloading, charged the nest and shot 2 of the enemy before his rifle jammed, bayonetted a third, went hand-to-hand with the 4th and killed him with a spade, then was last seen chasing the panicked last German down the road, spade in hand.

Sorry if I mangled any of the details, but it makes a hell of a good story!

BTW, on our cruise on the Norwegian Dawn in 2005, my wife had occasion to call for Ship's Security (nothing serious, just some preteen stupidities that were escalating to annoying-as-hell). When Security showed up at our cabin responding to our request, it turns out they were Gurkhas. I don't rememeber any further problems.:cool:

[James Langham]

And also the politest people I have ever met and always immaculately turned out even in civvies.

IIRC, my wife was telling me about a WW2 incident where a Gurhka unit was being pinned down by a German machinegun nest with 5 Germans in it. One of the Gurkhas waited for the gun to stop for reloading, charged the nest and shot 2 of the enemy before his rifle jammed, bayonetted a third, went hand-to-hand with the 4th and killed him with a spade, then was last seen chasing the panicked last German down the road, spade in hand.

Sorry if I mangled any of the details, but it makes a hell of a good story!

BTW, on our cruise on the Norwegian Dawn in 2005, my wife had occasion to call for Ship's Security (nothing serious, just some preteen stupidities that were escalating to annoying-as-hell). When Security showed up at our cabin responding to our request, it turns out they were Gurkhas. I don't rememeber any further problems.:cool:

[mikeo80]

I would think that even the baddest of the bad, let's say Seal Team 6 or Spetnaz would have second thoughts going up against these guys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brigade_of_Gurkhas_recipients_of_the_Victo ria_Cross

In this article it lists the 26 Gurkhas or British officers who received the VC since it's inception. That is 2% of the VC's went to the members of these units.

Tough is not enough of a word for these guys. I would think that in the T2K Universe, after the nukes have fallen, not only the two princes listed above, but HRH would also be guarded by the Gurkhas.

Go ahead France, Russia, who ever....make their day. After they are done turning you into sushi, they sharpen their kukri's. And wait....

My $0.02

Mike

[Targan]

The Badass of the Week website (http://www.badassoftheweek.com/list.html) has some excellent Gurkha stories, including one from a few years ago about a Gurkha who had recently retired from Indian service when he single-handedly took on an entire gang of bandits who were robbing a train he was travelling on. He was going to play it safe until the bandits attempted to rape a young woman, then he pulled out his kukri and started hacking. Needless to say things went very badly for the bandits.

Edit: Here's the link to that story: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/shrestha.html

[Rainbow Six]

Rainbow,

The six articles are very well done! I know you said you are working on improvements. I, for one, can't wait!!!

Thanks Mike...I have a bit of tinkering in mind...I'll probably spend some time over the next few months expanding the Regional Guide a little as well. I also just picked up a book on e bay that details the RAF as it was in 1989 (i.e. before Options For Change), so may have to review what I've done on the RAF.

[mikeo80]

The Badass of the Week website (http://www.badassoftheweek.com/list.html) has some excellent Gurkha stories, including one from a few years ago about a Gurkha who had recently retired from Indian service when he single-handedly took on an entire gang of bandits who were robbing a train he was travelling on. He was going to play it safe until the bandits attempted to rape a young woman, then he pulled out his kukri and started hacking. Needless to say things went very badly for the bandits.

Edit: Here's the link to that story: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/shrestha.html

Notice in the article, This hero was a THIRTY FIVE YEAR veteran!!!!! And a Corporal at that!!! The Gurkha Battalion he had been with had to unretire him to promote and award him.

My $0.02

Mike

[Targan]

Notice in the article, This hero was a THIRTY FIVE YEAR veteran!!!!! And a Corporal at that!!! The Gurkha Battalion he had been with had to unretire him to promote and award him.

LOL. I think you'll find that the article described him as a 35 year old veteran, not a 35 year veteran.

[mikeo80]

LOL. I think you'll find that the article described him as a 35 year old veteran, not a 35 year veteran.

Amazing what happens when your fingers slip on the boardkey. :p

My Bad

My $0.02

Mike

[dude_uk]

Hey its just nice to be of help. I was worried for a while that I was just pinching all your top ideas and not giving any back. :D Your ideas are great as always.

Few minor points:

With regards to SIS, they moved into their present accommodation at Vauxhall Cross in 1994. Glad you increased the size, at the height of the cold war MI6 had more agents working the other side of the iron curtain than the CIA.

Mebyon Kernow, the newest draft has downgraded the size of the leadership. You originally had it being lead by I believe an ex Royal Marine? Reason for the change?

Got my current draft of the complete British Army ORBAT almost done for you to take a look at, if you have the time could I email a copy soon for your perusal?

[Rainbow Six]

Cheers dude. Keeping Six at Century House was a slip up - I knew they'd moved to Vauxhall Cross, but thought it was later than that - I should have noticed it :o To be honest, I hadn't originally planned on covering Six (on the basis that the work was meant to cover the situation in the UK and by definition Six operate outside the UK) and I have been helluva short of time lately, so I may have rushed parts of that piece to try and get it out.

Crikey, that was a very early draft of Mebyon Kernow you're referring to! You're right, in that draft the group's leader - Geraint - was an ex Marine officer who had served in the Falklands and NI. Part of the reason for the change was that I was worried that in some ways the character of Geraint was not dissimilar to Marcus Rose himself - both were formerly Majors, both had served in NI, both had left the Armed Forces - so I went for a non military character in the end (I also had a draft where the leader was a bloke who was a self employed builder).

Apologies for not being in more regular contact re: your orbat...ping it through to me and I'll get back to you asap.

Cheers

Dave

[Rainbow Six]

Evening all,

Attached an updated timeline to my Alternative Survivor’s Guide.

This update has one fairly substantial revision, which pertains to the situation in Ireland. When I wrote the initial timeline I deviated quite substantially from the canon material by not having the Irish Defence Force invading Northern Ireland and the subsequent conflict that followed. There were a number of reasons for that, however given that it is a part of the established T2k canon, with the benefit of hindsight I think I should have kept it in. So the attached timeline is an attempt at a “retcon” that includes the conflict in Ireland. This is a first draft – my intention is to try and create an atmosphere similar to that found in the Balkans following the break up of Yugoslavia

Also attached is my order of battle for British forces in Northern Ireland and The Irish Defence Force.

Thanks to several people who posted in a thread started by Canadian Army a couple of years ago about Ireland, which had a lot of useful information.

As always, comments / questions are most welcome (please remember this is set at the start of June 2000).

Cheers

Dave

[James Langham]

Evening all,

Attached an updated timeline to my Alternative Survivor’s Guide.

This update has one fairly substantial revision, which pertains to the situation in Ireland. When I wrote the initial timeline I deviated quite substantially from the canon material by not having the Irish Defence Force invading Northern Ireland and the subsequent conflict that followed. There were a number of reasons for that, however given that it is a part of the established T2k canon, with the benefit of hindsight I think I should have kept it in. So the attached timeline is an attempt at a “retcon” that includes the conflict in Ireland. This is a first draft – my intention is to try and create an atmosphere similar to that found in the Balkans following the break up of Yugoslavia

Also attached is my order of battle for British forces in Northern Ireland and The Irish Defence Force.

Thanks to several people who posted in a thread started by Canadian Army a couple of years ago about Ireland, which had a lot of useful information.

As always, comments / questions are most welcome (please remember this is set at the start of June 2000).

Cheers

Dave

Dave,

great work as ever. Do you mind if I incorporate some of your work on the forces into my material on Ireland I am working on?

James

[RN7]

Hi Dave more good stuff as usual.

About Ireland I have a few queries. I know that Bantry was mentioned as a nuclear target somewhere in Twilight 2000, but it may not be the prime or only target in southern Ireland.

Bantry Bay was an historical deep water anchorage for the Royal Navy. Bantry itself is a small town of less than 3,500 people with an economy based on fishing and tourism. A large oil terminal was constructed in the 1960’s by Gulf Oil on the southwestern end of Whiddy Island which lies a few miles from Bantry. A major accident occurred in 1979 when a French oil tanker exploded killing 50 people. The terminal has never been fully repaired but was transferred to Irish government control and remains the main oil terminal for Ireland.

Haulbowline Island in Cork Harbour is the main base and headquarters of the Irish Naval Service. But it’s nearly 10 miles from Cork City which is sheltered by a lot of islands and land as Cork Harbour is quite extensive. Haulbowline is not a very large base with an enclosed harbor and a few old docks and slipways. Some Irish ships are also moored adjacent Haulbowline Island on Great Island which also hosts the seaport town of Cobh and the now redundant but still existent dock and ship yard at Rushbrooke which has built ships for the Irish Naval Service in the past. A ferry port is also located on the mainland a few miles away to the south at Ringaskiddy with a deep water berth and ferry services to France. Ireland’s main oil refinery is also located about five miles southeast of from Haulbowline at Whitegate on the mainland and there is a diesel oil and gas burning electricity power station a few miles inland. I’m not sure it would be worth the trouble of a nuclear strike as the Irish Navy is tiny but I suppose others could use the naval base. But I think you would need quite a big nuclear warhead to really damage the area.

Shannon Airport may be a more worthwhile target. Its 10,500 foot runway is the most western major airport in Europe, and the nearest large runway to North America and I believe it was a designated emergency landing site for the space shuttle. It also has an aircraft maintenance and major cargo handling facility, and a lot of American and European multinational companies have factories, depots and facilities in the adjacent Shannon Free Zone industrial park. Aeroflot used to use it as a stopover point between Russia and Cuba until the early 1990’s before they got long ranged passenger jets. Despite Ireland’s neutrality I have seen USAF C-17’s, C-141’s, F-15’s and F-16s lined up on the tarmac as well as Canadian and German military aircraft. I also saw three Russian Antonov An-124 cargo jets parked at the cargo facility well away from the main terminal ten years ago. There so big you just couldn’t miss them.

Also Collins Barracks in Dublin is now part of the National Museum of Ireland. However it closed in 1997 so it could be still active in the Twilight War timeline.

There are also quite a few small airports or aerodromes along the northwest of Ireland that could be of use to Irish forces including Belmullet, Donegal, Knock, Letterkenny, Sligo and the military heliport at Finner Camp in Bundoran Co. Donegal.

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks guys.

James, please, help yourself to anything that you think is useful.

Bantry is listed as having been the target of a nuclear strike on pg 16 of the canon SGUK. Interestingly, Cork is not listed as a target, however the map does carry a disclaimer that data for Eire is incomplete (although it doesn’t state whether the use of Eire in this instance refers only to the Republic or to the whole island of Ireland ). Going by the map on page 12, Belfast and Derry / Londonderry appear to be rubble, but are not listed as nuclear strikes, which is, I think reasonably consistent with what I’ve written.

Shannon isn’t listed on the map at all, but that’s a good point about the airport, which I hadn’t thought about. I suppose whether it warranted a nuke or not might in part be determined by whether Ireland continued to allow its use on a regular basis by (presumably) US forces after the War started or whether they closed it to belligerents. Weighing everything up and looking at published nuclear targets in other countries , I’m inclined to think it may have dodged a nuke (although perhaps may have been a target for conventional air attack or Spetznaz action (which raises the possibility of a Spetznaz detachment roaming around Ireland!), particularly if it was being used as an airbridge to the US). Cork definitely seems like a likely target to me though, primarily because of the oil refinery (which, presumably is also why Bantry was hit). If I’ve got this right are you saying that a nuclear strike centred on the refinery in Cork could well have caused some damage to Haulbowline (but possibly not complete destruction) but not necessarily Cork City itself? Will probably tinker with the Naval Service a bit...I think I'll change it to only one vessel definitely sunk by the RN with another sunk by powers unknown (maybe a Russian sub).

As time permits I do plan on working on a timeline / regional guide specifically for Ireland to accompany the UK guide which will try and get into more detail. I see Sligo as being the operational HQ for Irish operations against the British in Fermanagh and Tyrone plus Derry, whilst the events going on in Monaghan and Dundalk can be viewed as the lead up to the battle of Drogheda mentioned in the canon work. I thought about basing some Irish troops in Bundoran, but figured that with Ballyshannon changing hands a few times the UDR would have probably levelled the place at some point in time...totally forgotten about Knock airport (iirc Loganair used to fly in there from Scotland at one point - am guessing it's Ryanair now). Will have another look at air power...I am going on the basis that most of the Irish Air Corps has been lost in action, and what's left is grounded due to a lack of fuel. I'll probably also have the French lurking in the background doing a bit of meddling. And the Soviets will still have an Embassy in Dublin. so a few things to look at...there will definitely be an expanded and updated draft of this at some point in time, but I have a lot of stuff on at the minute, so six months seems a realistic timeframe! :)

[Targan]

Do the SGUK nuclear strike lists have the usual disclaimer of "only strike of 0.5mt or greater are shown" or are all nuke strikes covered?

[RN7]

Destroying the third largest city in Ireland (including Northern Ireland) would not exactly be a propaganda coup for the Soviet Union. Attacking neutral Ireland with nuclear weapons would automaticaly turn it towards NATO, as despite its rigid political neutrality on everything (except Britain) its a Western country and has a lot of close cultural and historical links with America. Ireland's relative geographical position on the west coast of Europe and its deap sea ports, anchorages and airports would be of great use to NATO in any operations in the Atlantic or even Arctic Oceans.

I'd say an air strike or a sabotage raid would serve a better purpose against the Bantry Bay oil terminal and Whitegate oil refinery than a nuclear strike. A well planned Spetznaz raid on these targets which are not well defended in the first place would completely knock them out. Unless any Soviets were captured it could easily be blamed on the British who with trouble brewing in Northern Ireland would be seen as the natural culprits. The IRA are also very left wing leaning and would probably even even help the Soviets in return for supplies of modern and heavy weapons. Its not hard to land arms along the south or west coast of Ireland by submarine as Ireland's naval and air patrol resources are tiny. The Germans tried it in the First World War.

[Rainbow Six]

Do the SGUK nuclear strike lists have the usual disclaimer of "only strike of 0.5mt or greater are shown" or are all nuke strikes covered?

I don't believe the SGUK does. I've just had a quick skim through my copy this morning and didn't see that disclaimer anywhere as far as I can see. It doesn't actually have a strike list in the sense that targets are written down in a list, it actually has two maps one map shows the strikes as dots on the map, the second had a notation that locations in parentheses were subjected to one or more nuclear attacks - there's no reference to megatonnage.

With regard to Ireland, the first map (the one with the dots denoting targets) says "strikes in Eire not shown" so makes no reference to any strikes in Ireland.

The second map (where targets are shown in parentheses) has a note stating "data for Eire is incomplete" and has Bantry Bay in parentheses (and uses the standard T2K may symbol to show the location as rubble). It doesn't have any other locations in parentheses - Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, Waterford, Sligo, and Cork all appear to be intact, but as noted data is incomplete. Shannon isn't listed one way or the other, and as noted Belfast and Londonderry are both rubble (but not in parentheses).

However...there is a list in the BYB (pg 226 of V2.0) which appears to be exactly the same listing as the V1 SGUK and does carry the disclaimer that it only lists targets of 0.5 MT or greater (this list also lists Bantry Bay, although it is incorrectly listed as being British - no other targets in Ireland are listed anywhere as far as I can tell - in fact unless I'm missing it Ireland isn't mentioned at all anywhere in the BYB).

[Rainbow Six]

Destroying the third largest city in Ireland (including Northern Ireland) would not exactly be a propaganda coup for the Soviet Union. Attacking neutral Ireland with nuclear weapons would automaticaly turn it towards NATO, as despite its rigid political neutrality on everything (except Britain) its a Western country and has a lot of close cultural and historical links with America. Ireland's relative geographical position on the west coast of Europe and its deap sea ports, anchorages and airports would be of great use to NATO in any operations in the Atlantic or even Arctic Oceans.

I'd say an air strike or a sabotage raid would serve a better purpose against the Bantry Bay oil terminal and Whitegate oil refinery than a nuclear strike. A well planned Spetznaz raid on these targets which are not well defended in the first place would completely knock them out. Unless any Soviets were captured it could easily be blamed on the British who with trouble brewing in Northern Ireland would be seen as the natural culprits. The IRA are also very left wing leaning and would probably even even help the Soviets in return for supplies of modern and heavy weapons. Its not hard to land arms along the south or west coast of Ireland by submarine as Ireland's naval and air patrol resources are tiny. The Germans tried it in the First World War.

I think similar points tend to come up when discussing potential Soviet nuclear strikes on France and consensus on the board has tended to be that the strikes would happen anyway. By November 1997 I'm not sure propaganda would be a major concern, and the canon timeline would suggest that major Naval operations have wound down by then so not sure the Sovs would feel that the risk of bringing Ireland into the War as a belligerent would outweigh the benefits of destroying the oil facilities (particularly since one would imagine the only side likely to be benefit from those facilities would be the West. All in all, I think a nuclear strike on Bantry falls under the category of "Then major industrial and oil centres in neutral nations are targeted to prevent their use by the other side" (BYB V2.0, pg 12).

It could be argued that Cork dodged a nuclear bullet though, as it doesn't appear on any nuclear target lists for the British Isles (although there is a degree of vagueness about strikes on Ireland). To be fair, if the Cork refinery was still operational at the start of 1998, I think the nation the most likely to take action against it probably would be the British - I think we would have the most to lose if Irish forces invading Northern Ireland had access to a full range of POL. In my opinion the probability of the UK nuking Cork is astronomically low (we've all got to live together after the War), so I think most likely option would be some sort of conventional attack, either by the RAF or Special Forces. It's an interesting idea...

[RN7]

I think similar points tend to come up when discussing potential Soviet nuclear strikes on France and consensus on the board has tended to be that the strikes would happen anyway. By November 1997 I'm not sure propaganda would be a major concern, and the canon timeline would suggest that major Naval operations have wound down by then so not sure the Sovs would feel that the risk of bringing Ireland into the War as a belligerent would outweigh the benefits of destroying the oil facilities (particularly since one would imagine the only side likely to be benefit from those facilities would be the West. All in all, I think a nuclear strike on Bantry falls under the category of "Then major industrial and oil centres in neutral nations are targeted to prevent their use by the other side" (BYB V2.0, pg 12).

Bringing Ireland into the war as a belligerent is not going to make much difference as the Irish don't realy have much of an armed forces in the first place, other than as a source of well known belligerent recruits to other countries armies.

I don't see France been hit too hard if at all by nuclear weapons for many reasons but I don't want to start a heated discusion about that.

It could be argued that Cork dodged a nuclear bullet though, as it doesn't appear on any nuclear target lists for the British Isles (although there is a degree of vagueness about strikes on Ireland). To be fair, if the Cork refinery was still operational at the start of 1998, I think the nation the most likely to take action against it probably would be the British - I think we would have the most to lose if Irish forces invading Northern Ireland had access to a full range of POL. In my opinion the probability of the UK nuking Cork is astronomically low (we've all got to live together after the War), so I think most likely option would be some sort of conventional attack, either by the RAF or Special Forces. It's an interesting idea...

I think Shannon would be a more significant target as its logistical value is fairly significant. The Soviets could easily conventionally destroy the refinery and oil terminal without waisting a nuclear warhead on them. Shannon on the other hand would need a nuclear warhead to destroy it as the runway can be repaired if they hit with an airstrike and crater the runway.

[RN7]

I think the nation the most likely to take action against it probably would be the British - I think we would have the most to lose if Irish forces invading Northern Ireland had access to a full range of POL. In my opinion the probability of the UK nuking Cork is astronomically low (we've all got to live together after the War), so I think most likely option would be some sort of conventional attack, either by the RAF or Special Forces. It's an interesting idea...

Personally I think the Irish armed forces would be crazy taking on Britain in any circumstances as their forces are inferior in almost every category. There would be die hard Republican elements even within the armed forces who probably would attack the north before actually thinking of the consequences. Northern Ireland's paramilitary security forces alone are probably equal in strenghth to the Irish armed forces, and the Northern Protestant mentality has been preparing for a "Catholic" invasion since the 19th century.

However British forces could take out any military or civil target in Southern Ireland without to much trouble, and I would agree with you that the chances of a British nuclear strike on Ireland is as low as a strike on Washington DC.

[James Langham]

Personally I think the Irish armed forces would be crazy taking on Britain in any circumstances as their forces are inferior in almost every category. There would be die hard Republican elements even within the armed forces who probably would attack the north before actually thinking of the consequences. Northern Ireland's paramilitary security forces alone are probably equal in strenghth to the Irish armed forces, and the Northern Protestant mentality has been preparing for a "Catholic" invasion since the 19th century.

However British forces could take out any military or civil target in Southern Ireland without to much trouble, and I would agree with you that the chances of a British nuclear strike on Ireland is as low as a strike on Washington DC.

IRL there was a plan to launch a rapid attack if things deteriorated in the north (unfortunately I don't have the source handy). It was considered in 1969 before Op Banner started.

In TW2000 there isn't a British Army presence as such as it has been withdrawn. In its place is the UDR which is rolled and trained for internal security duties.

It is not unrealistic to think that they could decide it was possible and achievable, particularly if Catholic repression in the north made it politically expedient.

[Rainbow Six]

Personally I think the Irish armed forces would be crazy taking on Britain in any circumstances as their forces are inferior in almost every category. There would be die hard Republican elements even within the armed forces who probably would attack the north before actually thinking of the consequences. Northern Ireland's paramilitary security forces alone are probably equal in strenghth to the Irish armed forces, and the Northern Protestant mentality has been preparing for a "Catholic" invasion since the 19th century.

I've always agreed with that point of view, which is one of the reasons my original work has always not had an invasion of the North by the Republic. However recently I've come round to the way of thinking that it is part of the T2K canon so whilst we may find it implausible I think I made an error in not including it in my Alternative version of the SGUK (I think someone mentioned a number of equally implausible events in another thread recently).

IRL there was a plan to launch a rapid attack if things deteriorated in the north (unfortunately I don't have the source handy). It was considered in 1969 before Op Banner started.

In TW2000 there isn't a British Army presence as such as it has been withdrawn. In its place is the UDR which is rolled and trained for internal security duties.

It is not unrealistic to think that they could decide it was possible and achievable, particularly if Catholic repression in the north made it politically expedient.

I think it was code named Excercise Armageddon. There's quite a bit on the web about it these days

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Armageddon

I agree that if stories / rumours start circulating in the south about alleged massacres taking place in the north that could act as a catalyst to send the Irish Army over the border. I don't think it would even need to come in the shape of an official order from Dublin - all it might take to spark it off is for one Irish Battalion CO to decide to take action and it could rapidly spiral out of control, particularly since HMG at the time is virtually decapitated (whether you use canon timeline or mine). The Irish Government may be horrified at what they've started but even if they wanted to try and bring things back under control there's no one for them to talk to in the UK. And, initially, at least the Irish make good inroads into the North, so even if the Irish Government (I'm gonna start calling that EIRGOV for short!) didn't intend to start a War they may not want to stop when they see how it progresses in the opening months at least.

[James Langham]

I've always agreed with that point of view, which is one of the reasons my original work has always not had an invasion of the North by the Republic. However recently I've come round to the way of thinking that it is part of the T2K canon so whilst we may find it implausible I think I made an error in not including it in my Alternative version of the SGUK (I think someone mentioned a number of equally implausible events in another thread recently).



I think it was code named Excercise Armageddon. There's quite a bit on the web about it these days

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Armageddon

I agree that if stories / rumours start circulating in the south about alleged massacres taking place in the north that could act as a catalyst to send the Irish Army over the border. I don't think it would even need to come in the shape of an official order from Dublin - all it might take to spark it off is for one Irish Battalion CO to decide to take action and it could rapidly spiral out of control, particularly since HMG at the time is virtually decapitated (whether you use canon timeline or mine). The Irish Government may be horrified at what they've started but even if they wanted to try and bring things back under control there's no one for them to talk to in the UK. And, initially, at least the Irish make good inroads into the North, so even if the Irish Government (I'm gonna start calling that EIRGOV for short!) didn't intend to start a War they may not want to stop when they see how it progresses in the opening months at least.

Add an unmarked border and intentional or unintentional navigation errors on either side...

I actually quite like the idea of a war that happens by accident !

[RN7]

I think it was code named Excercise Armageddon. There's quite a bit on the web about it these days

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Armageddon

I always like looking at all the contingency plans drawn up to take control of Ireland during a major war, particulary the German and British plans during WW2. Shows the relative value of Ireland to to others due to its geography.

An Irish newspaper recently posted online that the oil terminal at Bantry was a likely target for a Soviet nuclear strike during the Cold War. Recent Irish State Papers were made available to the public entitled “Strategic Importance of Ireland to the UK in Times of War” sets out the likely role of Ireland in the event of a global nuclear war.

The document drawn up by the Irish intelligence services says that Ireland was under direct threat of nuclear attack with likely targets including the Whiddy oil terminal in Bantry Bay and Shannon Airport. The report also said that Ireland would be likely to assist the UK in the event of a nuclear war with up to 500,000 people available for military service as well as offering sites for missiles, more than 30 airstrips, oil supplies and access to dozens of ports and harbours. Ireland was also identified as a likely staging post for reinforcements from the USA.

During the Cold War Ireland refused to join NATO because Northern Ireland was still a part of the United Kingdom. But Ireland did offer to set up a separate alliance with the USA but this was refused and it was linked in part to the $133 million received from the Marshall Aid Plan. It was also revealed recently that the Irish government started secret transmission of information with the CIA in 1955 from the Irish embassy in London. During the Cuban Missile Crisis the Irish government authorized searches of Soviet aircraft that stopped over at Shannon Airport en route between Warsaw Pact countries and Cuba.

Sort of shows which side the Irish are really on.

[RN7]

From the Belfast Telegraph.

A Soviet war map shows that Northern Ireland was also targeted for nuclear attack during the Cold War, and these targets were pinpointed in 1980 by British defence experts showing the spots they thought were likely to be hit.

Likely targets were the city of Belfast and its international airports. The British Army barracks at Ballykelly, the former US naval facility at Lishally, St Angelo airfield near Enniskillen and the US Navy transmitters in the Sperrin mountains. In British maps RAF facilities in Bishopscourt and Downpatrick were open to attack, along with British Army transmission sities in Co. Antrim and Derry, the British Army military communications facilities in Omaha, and a sea strike at Inishtrahull off the Donegal coast was also predicted. The Soviet were likely to use the SS-4 or SS-11 naval misille.

Personally I think its overkill and most of it is just speculation.

[Rainbow Six]

From the Belfast Telegraph.

A Soviet war map shows that Northern Ireland was also targeted for nuclear attack during the Cold War, and these targets were pinpointed in 1980 by British defence experts showing the spots they thought were likely to be hit.

Likely targets were the city of Belfast and its international airports. The British Army barracks at Ballykelly, the former US naval facility at Lishally, St Angelo airfield near Enniskillen and the US Navy transmitters in the Sperrin mountains. In British maps RAF facilities in Bishopscourt and Downpatrick were open to attack, along with British Army transmission sities in Co. Antrim and Derry, the British Army military communications facilities in Omaha, and a sea strike at Inishtrahull off the Donegal coast was also predicted. The Soviet were likely to use the SS-4 or SS-11 naval misille.

Personally I think its overkill and most of it is just speculation.

Sounds like a list from a full scale thermonuclear exchange rather than the (relatively speaking) more limited exchange that takes place in T2K.

There's a fairly detailed total exchange type target listing on the sub brit website (although I don't think it goes as far as the Telegraph's one):

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/sfs/appendices.htm#app5

My old house is slap between two of them - Pitreavie and Rosyth :(

[RN7]

I don't think anyone in Britain would be still alive if all those targets were hit.

[Rainbow Six]

Some of you who’ve been around for a while may remember that after being underwhelmed by the official product I attempted to write an Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom which gradually took shape in this thread over a period of time.

For anyone that’s interested, the link below will take you to a complete final draft. Most of it is not new, I’ve simply pulled together all of the different sections that have appeared here into one document for convenience, although there are a few sections that have never been shared before, primarily parts one and ten, while i’ve made a few tweaks to other material here and there (some of the Northern Ireland stuff might be new, I honestly can’t remember, this has literally been sitting on the hard drive of not my last laptop but the one before that for years, but inspired by some of the stuff that’s been appeared lately I thought I’d dust it off and post a link to it here in its entirety).

Comments, questions etc are welcome, although I should stress that I’ve been done with this project for a while and don’t intend to make any changes / revisions - it’s offered as it is, typos and occasional bits of wonky formatting et al, do with it as you will. Some readers may note a few British pop culture references dotted about and some of the photographs are used in what is intended to be a humorous way - I hope readers will take those in the spirit in which they’re intended.

Also, lest there be any doubt, it’s entirely unofficial and entirely non canonical (although it does largely comply with the V1 timeline other than a few non critical details, e.g. William as King). To be clear, I absolutely, categorically do not seek or claim any canonical status for it (including the so called ‘fan canon’ which I’ve never bought into anyway).

A number of people on this forum helped with ideas, suggestions, encouragement etc during the lengthy writing process. Specific shout outs go to Sean Nolan, aka RN7, who wrote parts of the Scotland and Wales sections, LouieD, whose help with Orbats was invaluable and who was responsible for the idea of the rebadging of some Territorial Army units, James Langham, who contributed to the section on the Dutch, and DudeUK, who was basically responsible for me restarting the whole project after a lengthy hiatus.

Right, here goes. I hope this link works, if it doesn’t I’m sure someone will let me know…

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8k40p08k0ig4d9/Complete%20Guide%20Final%20Draft.pdf?dl=0

[wolffhound79]

was the uss america in the wrong spot or is there something im missing?

[Legbreaker]

For anyone that’s interested, the link below will take you to a complete final draft.

Throw it my direction as a word file and I'm happy to go through correcting the typos, formatting, etc...

[Rainbow Six]

was the uss america in the wrong spot or is there something im missing?

If you mean the reference to the USS America on page 89, it's not a reference to any warship. It refers to a Bedford five ton gun truck operating in a shore unit formed from Royal Navy sailors who don't have any ships to man. In true Royal Naval tradition, each of the gun trucks was given a name starting with HMS (His Majesty's Ship). As that particular truck is commanded by a US Navy exchange officer it was given a USS prefix rather than an HMS one. It's definitely not in the wrong place.

The only US warship mentioned is the USS Normandy (and it's not seaworthy).

Throw it my direction as a word file and I'm happy to go through correcting the typos, formatting, etc...

Cheers Leg, I appreciate the offer, but I'm happy to finally -just call it finished so I figure it's fine as it is (my intent was never to get it published or claim any sort of canonical status for it, it was just something that was done because I enjoyed doing it but it's done now - if I start revisiting it for whatever reason I'll end up wanting to redo whole parts).

[wolffhound79]

thank you for clarifying that.

[Gunner]

GREAT work!

[CraigD6er]

Excellent work Rainbow Six, Thank You for this

[Southernap]

I just had this link from a blog forwarded to me from a friend. This blogger who used to be in the MoD during some of this planning. Might be useful to any of the players using this new supplement (https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/2021/02/planning-for-end-uk-central-government.html)

[wolffhound79]

Thats a good read and lots of pictures on the internet.

[Olefin]

unfortunately Marc isnt really open to new versions or corrected versions of things that were originally released for the game - i.e. I offered to redo City of Angels and make it actually make sense (i.e. for instance have the Mexican units actually equipped with the right equipment and not Soviet) and he wasnt interested

However I would love to see a much improved Survivors Guide to the UK issued for the 4th edition (which doesnt fall under the same no redo rule)

[Olefin]

If you mean the reference to the USS America on page 89, it's not a reference to any warship. It refers to a Bedford five ton gun truck operating in a shore unit formed from Royal Navy sailors who don't have any ships to man. In true Royal Naval tradition, each of the gun trucks was given a name starting with HMS (His Majesty's Ship). As that particular truck is commanded by a US Navy exchange officer it was given a USS prefix rather than an HMS one. It's definitely not in the wrong place.

The only US warship mentioned is the USS Normandy (and it's not seaworthy).



Cheers Leg, I appreciate the offer, but I'm happy to finally -just call it finished so I figure it's fine as it is (my intent was never to get it published or claim any sort of canonical status for it, it was just something that was done because I enjoyed doing it but it's done now - if I start revisiting it for whatever reason I'll end up wanting to redo whole parts).

Rainbow - would you be ok with having something from your alternate Guide as part of the Fanzine? Considering how many people download them it would be a great way to have your excellent work even more widely available. You could pick what section of it you would like to have there if you are interested.

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks for the comments, glad you enjoyed it. @Southernap, that’s an interesting article that you linked to, especially the part about the Caledonian MacBrayne ferries.

[Rainbow Six]

Rainbow - would you be ok with having something from your alternate Guide as part of the Fanzine?

No, I would not be OK with that.

[Olefin]

No, I would not be OK with that.

Ok good to know - always make that offer to authors here - thats how James and Matt's stuff was put in the 2nd and 3rd issues as well as Raellus's article in the 3rd issue

[Southernap]

Thanks for the comments, glad you enjoyed it. @Southernap, that’s an interesting article that you linked to, especially the part about the Caledonian MacBrayne ferries.

@Rainbow Six

Not a problem. I got it because we were discussing continuity of government and my friend stumbled upon this while doing some searches on what NATO nations would have done to do continuity of government. I am figured someone here might find some good use for it.

[Matt W]

Let's not forget the most important strategic asset for rebuilding civilization in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Cocoa_Quarantine_Centre

ACRES of cocoa plants

[Raellus]

This might be a fun vehicle to include in any UK-based campaign:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/armored-range-rovers-with-nuclear-past-just-auctioned-off

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