London / Mob behaviour

[kcdusk]

Has everyone seen the riots/looting/mob behaviour thats taken place in London over the last week?

Firstly, i hope anyone over there is safe.

Secondly, all of the violent incidents were triggered when a suspected drug dealer was shot dead. Since then, it seems like every night and even most days have seen thousands of people in the streets. Looting, rioting etc. Londons police force has struggled to maintain calm. Many innocent people have been hurt and a few killed.

Rioters have stolen off each other, and there has even been cases of rioters making people take their clothes off (why, i dont know, why steal someones jeans?).

Dangerous, bizare stuff. In England. A first world country. I know unemployment is high and theres been other potential reasons given. But i think everyone will agree its been extreme behaviour.

Now, imagine if a 3rd world war, a twilight war broke out. How do you think the public would react then? And how does that compare to how you thought a first world countrys populace might have behaved before the London riots?

[RN7]

A drug dealer from an ethnic minority background with a gun was shot and killed by the police in London, and the worst elements of England's ethnic minority jumped on the racial discrimination bandwagon and used it as an excuse to go on a voilent rampage of looting and destruction. The police werent expecting it and because of years of PC interference by the British government were reluctant to confront the rioters as most of them were from minority backgrounds and the police didn't want to be accused of being racist. This prolonged the problem which soon spread to other English cities, but it seems to have been brought under control as practically every police officer in the UK has been on the streets over the past few days.

There seems to be some severe social problems in Britain which allowed this to fester and has been ignored for years. An underclass of unemployed, badly educated and welfare dependent young people who seem to feel entitled to things they have done nothing to deserve, and the emergence of city gang culture and gun and drug crime, which has been compounded by large scale immigration from third world countries which was encouraged by Tony Blaire which have put a strain on Britain's social services and the decent hard working law abiding British tax payers who have had to pay for it. On top of that the police have had their hands tied by PC nonsense and haven't been able to do their job properly.

However the backlash against the rioters has been the best part of it all, as all the decent British people from all backgrounds are disgusted with what they saw happening, and 1,500 scumbags have been arrested and charged as most were picked up on CCTV cameras which are all over British cities. The British public seems to want the police to be given back the power to do their jobs properly again and get the gangs of the streets, and politicians are remarkably quite in their opposition to this. The rioters should realy consider themselves lucky as a sizeable minority of the British population wanted the British army on the streets to shoot them, and if they were living in countries were they realy have something to fear from the police they would have been shot dead by now.

[95th Rifleman]

Every nation has a layer of scum. I remember the riots after Rodney King was beaten by LA Police. One racist act by a few police officers sparked a riot that cost 53 lives.

Like most western nations, Britain tries to walk a fine line between order and human rights. Other nations have the luxury of ignoring human rights and as a result have less problems with civil disturbance. However the British people (like most western people) are of the opinion that running tanks over students isn't quite the way forward so we try to maintain our balance.

The riots had NOTHING to do with the police shooting, scum saw an excuse, saw the police where weak and took advantage of it. Just like they did in LA back in 1992.

For years the political correctness and human rights crowd havebeen taking pliers to the teeth of the British police and we have seen the effect. The balance has gone wrong and we havea police force trapped too far to one side, we need to make our Police strong again without going too far the other side of the line, this will take time and allot of work.

The European human rights act is the maing thing that cripples our legal system.

[kcdusk]

I thought it interesting that something relatively minor set off the events in what i would have considered a well managed country (sure, it has its problems, which country doesnt, but still first world).

Imagine food sortages, threat of nuclear war, some conventional bombing, real racial tention, no travel, paranoia, conscription, disease, famine, the whole 4 horseman business of the twilight war. I think what we've seen happen in london would happen on a much larger scale in Europe and the USA during the T2K war. It wouldnt just be Russians we would be fighting, we'd also be fighting our own home grown militants.

[95th Rifleman]

I thought it interesting that something relatively minor set off the events in what i would have considered a well managed country (sure, it has its problems, which country doesnt, but still first world).

Imagine food sortages, threat of nuclear war, some conventional bombing, real racial tention, no travel, paranoia, conscription, disease, famine, the whole 4 horseman business of the twilight war. I think what we've seen happen in london would happen on a much larger scale in Europe and the USA during the T2K war. It wouldnt just be Russians we would be fighting, we'd also be fighting our own home grown militants.

I disagree entirely.

It is BECAUSE we have no real threats that society is so fractured, we have so much freedom and no threat to it, no fear to unite our culture and society.
If you look at the UK (and Germany) during WW2 and how united these nations became under the constant bombing campaighns you'll see a model for the twilight war.

I honestly think the problems we have today stem from too much freedom and not enough social fear, it's ironic that the threat of destruction is the one thing that truly unites a country.

[Tombot]

I am not so sure about the "scum"-topic...
When there are major riots, sure - there will be some people, just taking advantage of the chaos for looting.
BUT - if most people feeling like treated well, i am sure, that there would be not enough energy to spread such a mess.
I mean dead people ? Stripping somebody?

I work in a social occupation for a long time. Groups of people do behave different than individuals. But anyone who feels accepted within a society, has a certain (negative) hurdle to overcome, before taking massively destructive action.
And we are seeing continual riots here. That should mean something.

I dunno... there must be a not too small "minority" of residents which feels mistreated, otherwise i can not imagine such a force of destruction.
I dont have much knowledge about british politics, but i am sure that people generally are not THAT violent just because there is an opportunity.
There must be (maybe several mixing) reasons for that. Any english people here with more insight on that?

[Legbreaker]

I've heard it mentioned a large number of rioters have been armed with things such as blackberry's, expensive clothing and even more expensive cars. Add in that a large number of rioters arrested include such upstanding citizens as teachers aids (one example that springs to mind) and, well, I'd say it's not just a social underclass behind it all. My guess is yes the first night was a reaction to the shooting, but ever since it's mainly been an excuse by those who are just plain bored to get out there, trash the place and pick up a new plasma TV on the cheap.

In my mind there is NO excuse for the behaviour we've all seen splashed across the TV world wide. It's not like the British government are dragging people out of the beds in the middle of the night, flying them halfway around the world and torturing them before locking them away without a trial, or simply executing them... If that were happening I could understand it.

[95th Rifleman]

In my mind there is NO excuse for the behaviour we've all seen splashed across the TV world wide. It's not like the British government are dragging people out of the beds in the middle of the night, flying them halfway around the world and torturing them before locking them away without a trial, or simply executing them... If that were happening I could understand it.

We tried that, we called it Australia.

[Raellus]

I disagree entirely.

I honestly think the problems we have today stem from too much freedom and not enough social fear, it's ironic that the threat of destruction is the one thing that truly unites a country.

This is an interesting point and I'm still thinking about it. I'm not sure I agree that we need more fear to bind society together. Look at what societies have become when fear is created, amplified, and/or played upon, especially by natuional governments:

Nazism
McCarthyism
Cultural Revolution

I think I'd rather deal with an occasional spate of rioting than live in a repressive police state.

But I can kind of see where you are coming from- I do agree that shared adversity can bind a nation together. Look at how well the UK and the U.S. came together behind the war effort in WWII. Granted, fear is a component of that shared adversity, but I'm not sure if it is the prime motivator/causal factor.

[Panther Al]

We tried that, we called it Australia.

*winces and hides in his bunker to watch the war!*

[mikeo80]

*winces and hides in his bunker to watch the war!*

Knock Knock,Knock.

Would you let me in? I want to watch the war too!! :p

My $0.02

Mike

[Legbreaker]

We tried that, we called it Australia.

Fair point. We'll accept that.
Of course that did end roughly a hundred and fifty years ago - around the same time as a certain war in a certain ex colony which involved slavery as a key element of it's causes...

[Targan]

We tried that, we called it Australia

*winces and hides in his bunker to watch the war!*

Heh heh. Many non-Australians probably don't realise that most Aussies are strangely proud of their convict heritage. Being a Brit, 95th Rifleman probably knows that. I doubt he thought his post would cause offense. It certainly doesn't offend me. The first of my paternal ancestors to come to Australia (my great-great-grandfather) was transported to Australia from the UK as a convict for stealing a gentleman's fob watch. His son (my great-grandfather) was an illiterate miner who was taught to read and write by his wife and became a cabinet minister in New Zealand's first Labour government (and invented the Semple Tank, New Zealand's home-grown AFV, during WWII).

[Legbreaker]

The way we look at it, the Brits sent us all their sporting and intellectual cream. :cool:
Lets examine: What's the population of the UK compared to Australia? How many times do we whip their arses all over the field?
Not bad for a bunch of convicts... :D

[Panther Al]

Heh heh. Many non-Australians probably don't realise that most Aussies are strangely proud of their convict heritage. Being a Brit, 95th Rifleman probably knows that. I doubt he thought his post would cause offense. It certainly doesn't offend me. The first of my paternal ancestors to come to Australia (my great-great-grandfather) was transported to Australia from the UK as a convict for stealing a gentleman's fob watch. His son (my great-grandfather) was an illiterate miner who was taught to read and write by his wife and became a cabinet minister in New Zealand's first Labour government (and invented the Semple Tank, New Zealand's home-grown AFV, during WWII).

Heh, true enough, the west islanders do have that way about them.

But as friends and family down that way are asking: Ellis, Where the *bleep* is Webb Ellis?

[waiting4something]

Every nation has a layer of scum. I remember the riots after Rodney King was beaten by LA Police. One racist act by a few police officers sparked a riot that cost 53 lives.

Like most western nations, Britain tries to walk a fine line between order and human rights. Other nations have the luxury of ignoring human rights and as a result have less problems with civil disturbance. However the British people (like most western people) are of the opinion that running tanks over students isn't quite the way forward so we try to maintain our balance.

The riots had NOTHING to do with the police shooting, scum saw an excuse, saw the police where weak and took advantage of it. Just like they did in LA back in 1992.

For years the political correctness and human rights crowd havebeen taking pliers to the teeth of the British police and we have seen the effect. The balance has gone wrong and we havea police force trapped too far to one side, we need to make our Police strong again without going too far the other side of the line, this will take time and allot of work.

The European human rights act is the maing thing that cripples our legal system.

Rodney King was not really a racist beating by police officers. The black groups that try to make everything a racial issue, or the bullshit media that likes to make money off exploiting shit to make a buck made it one. Old Rodney got his ass beat down because Rodney was on pcp and didn't want do what he was told by the cops. The cops tell me to do something I try to do it. They hit me or most non high people with batons we tend to comply or atleast don't try to keep getting up. The media really made poor Rodney King a poor victim when he was really a junked up idiot. If the first responding officer(a female) would have just shot his ass we would have never heard of Rodney King.

[95th Rifleman]

Heh heh. Many non-Australians probably don't realise that most Aussies are strangely proud of their convict heritage. Being a Brit, 95th Rifleman probably knows that. I doubt he thought his post would cause offense. It certainly doesn't offend me. The first of my paternal ancestors to come to Australia (my great-great-grandfather) was transported to Australia from the UK as a convict for stealing a gentleman's fob watch. His son (my great-grandfather) was an illiterate miner who was taught to read and write by his wife and became a cabinet minister in New Zealand's first Labour government (and invented the Semple Tank, New Zealand's home-grown AFV, during WWII).

Australia inherited the British trait for friendly insults. tried explaining this to an American girlfriend, the more a brit insults you, the more he likes you.

When an Englishman is polite, he's planning your doom.

We've stayed on good terms with all our old colonies and hold them in great respect. Especialy since "most" of them join us in war on time. We won't mention the lazy one that sits on the sidelines waiting to see who is winning before getting involved...... :p

[simonmark6]

As for Australians, it's not the ones descended from the criminals I'm worried about, it's the ones descended from the warders...

[LBraden]

True that Simon, the wardens were more corrupt than the bloody prisoners.

[Tombot]

This is an interesting point and I'm still thinking about it. I'm not sure I agree that we need more fear to bind society together. Look at what societies have become when fear is created, amplified, and/or played upon, especially by natuional governments:

Nazism
McCarthyism
Cultural Revolution

I think I'd rather deal with an occasional spate of rioting than live in a repressive police state.

But I can kind of see where you are coming from- I do agree that shared adversity can bind a nation together. Look at how well the UK and the U.S. came together behind the war effort in WWII. Granted, fear is a component of that shared adversity, but I'm not sure if it is the prime motivator/causal factor.

I´ll second that! Fear and paranoia are NEVER good influences for any society.
Thats part of what fascinates me about playing with in T2k - far away from being a threatening part of my reality (at least not now!)...

@ waiting4something:
I do remember seeing the camera-footage of King being beat up by several policemen, quite a while after the riots. What i saw was fact and there is nothing to interpret about the situation, after he was down on the ground.

I dont know about his behaviour before they got´em on the ground, i dont know if, or how much he has been doing drugs.
What they did was sadistic. They actually took turns, beating and kicking him (for minutes! I dont recall the exact length of the recording, but it was looong), standing around the man, and he WAS not posing a threat than. Even if he did´nt do anything what some police told him to do - possible, i dont know that -there is no f...ng reason for such an irrational behaviour from so many police-officers!

As a citizen i would´nt feel secure in a place, where the police is treating people like that. I would expect behaviour like that, in an "Elsie"-Camp of New America...

[Rainbow Six]

As several others have already said the vast majority of the rioting that has taken place had absolutely nothing to do with the Metropolitan Police shooting a suspected drug dealer (who happened to be armed himself). Personally I think the only rioting directly related to that wa the first night (the Saturday) in Tottenham, North London.

Unfortunately the Police struggled to maintain order in Tottenham that Saturday night (failed is probably a fairer word to use than struggled) and that probably prompted large numbers of individuals to engage in "copy cat" rioting over the next few days, but to reiterate, that had absolutely nothing to do with the initial shooting. To quote Legbreaker...

I've heard it mentioned a large number of rioters have been armed with things such as blackberry's, expensive clothing and even more expensive cars. Add in that a large number of rioters arrested include such upstanding citizens as teachers aids (one example that springs to mind) and, well, I'd say it's not just a social underclass behind it all. My guess is yes the first night was a reaction to the shooting, but ever since it's mainly been an excuse by those who are just plain bored to get out there, trash the place and pick up a new plasma TV on the cheap.

Agreed.

In my mind there is NO excuse for the behaviour we've all seen splashed across the TV world wide.

And again agreed.

I don't claim to be any sort of expert on this, but as you can imagine it has generated pretty much non stop news coverage ever since, and consenus seems to be that a) intially there weren't enough police officers on duty to actively deal with the situation and b) some of their tactics were flawed, partly because of their lack of numbers and partly for reasons that 95th Rifleman has already alluded to. Action was taken to correct both of these issues at the start of last week - for example the number of officers on duty in London was increased from 3,000 (Monday night) to 16,000 (Tuesday night) by cancelling all leave, pulling in off duty personnel and drafting in officers from other forces. Tactics also became more "robust"; arrests taking place continuously since the middle of last week with the vast majority of suspects being remanded without bail. Consequently things have been relatively quiet since last Tuesday, the 09th. Obviously the challenge for the police at the moment is that they cannot sustain 16,000 officers on the streets of London indefinitely.

On the subject of calling in the Army, there was a clamour for this in some areas at the start of last week but senior Police Officers stated that this was an absolute last resort (correctly in my opinion).

Now, all that said...with regard to a T2K Setting...whilst I agree with 95th Rifleman and think rioting in the streets of the UK would be unlikely before the nuclear exchanges, after the nuclear exchange I think it becomes much, much more likely...the have nots would attempt to take from the haves, by force if neccessary. However I think that unlike the current situation in some parts of England where it was the shops selling electronic gear, mobile phones, and designer clothers, in December 1997 it would have been the food shops, the camping gear shops, supermarkets, etc that would be the target. And to be fair, the response of the authorities could be expected to be even more robust, with the most common sentence quite possibly being either 5.56N or 7.62N.

Just a few thoughts on the matter...

[Fusilier]

"Flames began to billow from a shop and then a double-decker bus was engulfed in flames and quickly reduced to a twisted shell. Witnesses also reported seeing a jewellery shop and a bookmakers being looted. Teenagers and younger children were seen carrying valuables through the shattered glass front of an electrical shop. There were also reports that youths had stormed McDonald’s and had started frying their own burgers and chips."

On a lighter note, this had to be the funniest line that I noticed was being repeated several times by more than a few media outlets.

Stay classy Tottenham :p

[Rainbow Six]

"Flames began to billow from a shop and then a double-decker bus was engulfed in flames and quickly reduced to a twisted shell. Witnesses also reported seeing a jewellery shop and a bookmakers being looted. Teenagers and younger children were seen carrying valuables through the shattered glass front of an electrical shop. There were also reports that youths had stormed McDonald’s and had started frying their own burgers and chips."

On a lighter note, this had to be the funniest line that I noticed was being repeated several times by more than a few media outlets.

Stay classy Tottenham :p

There were some reports of looters in a sports shop actually trying shoes on first to make sure they stole the correct size...

[waiting4something]

I´ll second that! Fear and paranoia are NEVER good influences for any society.
Thats part of what fascinates me about playing with in T2k - far away from being a threatening part of my reality (at least not now!)...

@ waiting4something:
I do remember seeing the camera-footage of King being beat up by several policemen, quite a while after the riots. What i saw was fact and there is nothing to interpret about the situation, after he was down on the ground.

I dont know about his behaviour before they got´em on the ground, i dont know if, or how much he has been doing drugs.
What they did was sadistic. They actually took turns, beating and kicking him (for minutes! I dont recall the exact length of the recording, but it was looong), standing around the man, and he WAS not posing a threat than. Even if he did´nt do anything what some police told him to do - possible, i dont know that -there is no f...ng reason for such an irrational behaviour from so many police-officers!

As a citizen i would´nt feel secure in a place, where the police is treating people like that. I would expect behaviour like that, in an "Elsie"-Camp of New America...

The man was on pcp..... he's a threat. The man was beat with batons...... he was still trying to get up? That should tell you something. They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again. Sure was that the best way to get someone in custody? Don't know. I never had to deal with a guy hopped up on pcp.
The European idea of crime and punishment is different then North America. I used to think we where too soft on crime and still do in most cases. However, then I talked to a few Europeans and found out that we are the hard asses when it comes to punishment. They see us a barbarians.:D They are disgusted that some places still have a death penalty. I mean really why house some scum bag that will just get out and kill, rob, molest, rape, etc again and again. Sadly just like Sgt. Scott aka GR-13 in Universal Soldier says "the only way to teach them is to kill them".;)

[kcdusk]

Now, all that said...with regard to a T2K Setting...whilst I agree with 95th Rifleman and think rioting in the streets of the UK would be unlikely before the nuclear exchanges, after the nuclear exchange ..

I think there would be roiting before the nuclear exchange, protesting war in general, nuclear war specifically, and an element of trouble makers.

I dont think there will be roiting after the nuclear exchange ... due to lack of people and places to riot :-)

[ArmySGT.]

On the subject of calling in the Army, there was a clamour for this in some areas at the start of last week but senior Police Officers stated that this was an absolute last resort (correctly in my opinion).


I just wanted to address this part here.

I think that if the British .gov had called out the British Army, you could have done it like we do.

The Army guards the important stuff and creates impassable road blocks, freeing up the Police Forces to act and arrest.

Sort of square peg to square hole fit to purpose.

[Tombot]

The man was on pcp..... he's a threat. The man was beat with batons...... he was still trying to get up? That should tell you something. They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again. Sure was that the best way to get someone in custody? Don't know. I never had to deal with a guy hopped up on pcp.
The European idea of crime and punishment is different then North America. I used to think we where too soft on crime and still do in most cases. However, then I talked to a few Europeans and found out that we are the hard asses when it comes to punishment. They see us a barbarians.:D They are disgusted that some places still have a death penalty. I mean really why house some scum bag that will just get out and kill, rob, molest, rape, etc again and again. Sadly just like Sgt. Scott aka GR-13 in Universal Soldier says "the only way to teach them is to kill them".;)

No. He wasnt able to get up at that point. Not anymore.
In the footage i saw, Rodney King was just lying on the ground, trying to protect his head. And they still took turns beating & kicking him from several sides for minutes. What does that tell me ?
Maybe that it had nothing to do with legal and just police-work.
Its a crime in itself, when policeofficers feel like they are the judge, too.

Personally i never saw americans as barbarians in terms of their laws.
Still, i am glad, that i dont have to "freeze" in my car, every time i am stopped in traffic, or else...
I guess thats about gun-laws and the habits of people wearing them (and being a potential threat) - but thats going to far, for a RPG-related forum...
I wont get into an argument about death-penaltys and all that.

But to quote an actionfilm-cyborg on this... well, whatever you say :)

[natehale1971]

No. He wasnt able to get up at that point. Not anymore.
In the footage i saw, Rodney King was just lying on the ground, trying to protect his head. And they still took turns beating & kicking him from several sides for minutes. What does that tell me ?
Maybe that it had nothing to do with legal and just police-work.
Its a crime in itself, when policeofficers feel like they are the judge, too.

Personally i never saw americans as barbarians in terms of their laws.
Still, i am glad, that i dont have to "freeze" in my car, every time i am stopped in traffic, or else...
I guess thats about gun-laws and the habits of people wearing them (and being a potential threat) - but thats going to far, for a RPG-related forum...
I wont get into an argument about death-penaltys and all that.

But to quote an actionfilm-cyborg on this... well, whatever you say :)

Tombot,

I've got A LOT of family in the law enforcement community, and if the letter had arrived a week and half sooner... i'd have gone to College instead of boot camp in 1989 and become a State Highway Patrol officer and went on an entirely different career path. What happened with King is something that 99% of the people have only seen the last 50% of what was happening with his time with the police. If you can get to see the entire video, please do. King was zooming on PCP, he attacked the police when he got out of his car. One of the officer's he attacked was one of the first female officers. He knocked her down and did bodily harm to her. The other police tried other forms of restraint, but they didn't work and they ended up going over the edge and beat him like a drum. That's not an excuse. But an explaination for what happened.

Dealing with someone hopped up on PCP isn't easy... hell, I've talked to officers who've stated taht they've had to SHOOT the person (both males and females) multiple times... because they just were not stop advancing on them. And this was officers using .45s and .38s and not the little wimpy 9mm they are using today. One first hand story i was given, was the PCP junkie was IN THE POLICE STATION being booked when they had a flashback (not completely zooming on the stuff) and they started throwing cops and dectives all around the squadroom. It took EVERYONE in the room (and others from out of the station jumping in) to bring this guy down.

The other story I was told dealt with a zoomie who had JUMPED OFF the roof of a thrid story building, he broke his leg and kept running. When the officers cornered him he fought them off and nearly killed one of the officers when he threw them through a windshield (the broken glass cut his throat, he had a massive concussion). Three officers started shooting when the Zoomie jumped on said officer and started to bash his head in. They emptied their pistols into the guy, and he was still trying to kill them.

What happened with King wasn't the worse case of Police overreacting. And when it happens I get really pissed off. And I can get you links of cases where officers acted in bad faith... and give you essays on just how screwed up tey were and how they should have gotten the book thrown at them. But usually that comes only after I've seen or read EVERYTHING dealing with the incident so I can get into their heads and try to figure out what they where thinking... and then make a judgement on what happened.

All I'm saying is that the Rodney King beating wasn't the worse case... But trying to say that the cops were dealing with someone who was fighting them, and then when they finally started to get control of the situattion they were hyped up on adrenile and didn't back off. It's why they were not found guilty of criminal charges, but brought up on civil ones.

One of the worst problems with what happened in this case was that the media hyped up the back end of the incident, and didn't show the first half where King attacked the officers... I put all the bad things that came out of the incident into the hands of the damn media who did not show everything that happened.

The media went for sensationalism, and not facts.

[waiting4something]

No. He wasnt able to get up at that point. Not anymore.
In the footage i saw, Rodney King was just lying on the ground, trying to protect his head. And they still took turns beating & kicking him from several sides for minutes. What does that tell me ?
Maybe that it had nothing to do with legal and just police-work.
Its a crime in itself, when policeofficers feel like they are the judge, too.

Personally i never saw americans as barbarians in terms of their laws.
Still, i am glad, that i dont have to "freeze" in my car, every time i am stopped in traffic, or else...
I guess thats about gun-laws and the habits of people wearing them (and being a potential threat) - but thats going to far, for a RPG-related forum...
I wont get into an argument about death-penaltys and all that.

But to quote an actionfilm-cyborg on this... well, whatever you say :)

"Whatever I say. What a wonderful philosophy you have." The Toe Cutter from Mad Max.
I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm just telling you what the real deal behind Rodney King is. Most Americans never even knew this dude was on junk. They just believe what the media shows.

[Bullet Magnet]

True that Simon, the wardens were more corrupt than the bloody prisoners.

Well, you know.....REAL criminals don't get arrested; they get elected!

[Bullet Magnet]

"There were also reports that youths had stormed McDonald’s and had started frying their own burgers and chips."


It was probably quite a novelty for them, since few if any of these rioters have ever held a job, from what I've heard.

[Legbreaker]

From what I've seen many did have jobs, they just didn't work...

[waiting4something]

natehale1971 it's good to see you don't buy into the media bullshit.The media today like everything else... about making money. They don't care who gets crushed or what mayhem they cause to make that money. Half the time I believe the don't research their stories or flat out write up lies.
PCP is like the worst drug you could wish that your combatant is on. Remember in the movie Terminator when the cop(Lance Henrikson) told Sarah Connor that the guy that punched through the car windshield was probably on PCP and broke every bone in his and wouldn't feel it for hours.;) Hell if knew someone was on pcp I would go right for the 12 gauge. 2 to the head, 1 to the chest. Playing WWE with a person with superhuman strengh sounds like a bad idea. FUCK BEING MR. NICE GUY!

[Targan]

The man was on pcp..... he's a threat. The man was beat with batons...... he was still trying to get up? That should tell you something. They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again. Sure was that the best way to get someone in custody? Don't know. I never had to deal with a guy hopped up on pcp.
The European idea of crime and punishment is different then North America. I used to think we where too soft on crime and still do in most cases. However, then I talked to a few Europeans and found out that we are the hard asses when it comes to punishment. They see us a barbarians.:D They are disgusted that some places still have a death penalty. I mean really why house some scum bag that will just get out and kill, rob, molest, rape, etc again and again. Sadly just like Sgt. Scott aka GR-13 in Universal Soldier says "the only way to teach them is to kill them".;)

Umm... ok. Well you've made your opinions on the matter pretty clear. That part about "They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again", were you joking there? With text it's hard to tell. From your comment "They see us a barbarians.:D" it seems you wear that label as a badge of pride?

We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. Your views seem a bit extreme and frightening to me, but I'm living in a country where people don't shoot each other by the hundreds on a daily basis. Maybe if I lived in or adjacent to some low-income, gang-infested hell-hole I might feel as you do, so I'm not going to judge your opinions.

[Rainbow Six]

I think there would be roiting before the nuclear exchange, protesting war in general, nuclear war specifically, and an element of trouble makers.

I dont think there will be roiting after the nuclear exchange ... due to lack of people and places to riot :-)

I see it as being more like what happened with Iraq...there may be a sizeable anti war element who would make their voices heard in the period leading up to the UK's entry in to the war, but once British forces are involved the message coming out from the Government and the media would be to support the troops. That's not to say there wil be no trouble - some disorder is possible, but I think it would generally be on a smaller scale and dealt with extremely robustly by the authorities (in my Alternative Survivor's Guide to the UK I suggest that one catalyst for disorder would be the introduction of conscription).

However after the nukes start flying I still think large scale disorder is much more likely in the surviving cities and towns.

[waiting4something]

Umm... ok. Well you've made your opinions on the matter pretty clear. That part about "They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again", were you joking there? With text it's hard to tell. From your comment "They see us a barbarians.:D" it seems you wear that label as a badge of pride?

We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. Your views seem a bit extreme and frightening to me, but I'm living in a country where people don't shoot each other by the hundreds on a daily basis. Maybe if I lived in or adjacent to some low-income, gang-infested hell-hole I might feel as you do, so I'm not going to judge your opinions.

Yeah, I am serious beating people is tiring! When someone doesn't go down like they are Rocky or something. Yeah it's better to be getting some wind back before you attack again. This is why you see boxers always hugging each other in the ring they aren't really hugging they are just really tired. This is my point.
As far as other countries that see Americans as being to hard on criminal punishment it just makes me smile, because I know we are far for that. The world has taken a very limp-wristed view on holding people accountable for there actions. You can murder innocent people, because you wanted to be badass then when you serve time you expect 3 hots and a cot.:confused: Excercise, visitors, education, make new bad guy friends etc. I mean what is that college? Most of these guy's will replay the crap they did before. But some people in the world feel they deserve to be treated fairly.:confused:
The only probelm with death penalties is they cost to much with all the legal red tape it takes to get someone removed. That and we really don't get a benefit from this type of forgiveness. I mean a lot of convicts could be of good use as medical test subjects. Why test a cute furry bunny that is quite different from ourselves when we can use the real thing. Someone needs a new kidney, hey we have in stock. It makes sense.
But, I guess guys like the Califonia Night Stalker get to just be celebs with there kooky fans writing them.:D

[Webstral]

Gentlemen, not only are we getting a bit off-topic, but the tenor of the opinions posted is stepping outside the drawing room. There are plenty of places where on the Internet where one can express one's opinions as thuggishly as one wishes. This is not one of those places. In keeping with our founder's vision of not restricting freedom of expression, I'm not going to say that people can't or even shouldn't express viewpoints such as those in favor of the death penalty. I will say, though, that arguments for or against should be made in a fashion that reflects a level of consideration appropriate for a gentlemen's club or a philosoph.

[Targan]

I mean a lot of convicts could be of good use as medical test subjects. Why test a cute furry bunny that is quite different from ourselves when we can use the real thing. Someone needs a new kidney, hey we have in stock. It makes sense.

Well hey, it's been done before. Dr Josef Mengele had quite an extensive program underway during the 1940s. He was hunted for decades after WWII for war crimes and crimes against humanity but I guess some people might still regard his "research" as being justified.

And the Chinese government regularly harvests organs from prisoners. What a great ole bunch of happy campers the Chinese government are, right?

[waiting4something]

Well hey, it's been done before. Dr Josef Mengele had quite an extensive program underway during the 1940s. He was hunted for decades after WWII for war crimes and crimes against humanity but I guess some people might still regard his "research" as being justified.

And the Chinese government regularly harvests organs from prisoners. What a great ole bunch of happy campers the Chinese government are, right?

Yes exactly, now your seeing my point. The Chinese have made lots of leaps and bounds over the years. They are kinda like our Uncle Sugar now. I don't know who else we could have gotten a handout from otherwise.

Doc Mengele, meh... some of his experiments might have been with merit, but I think on alot of accounts one could guess the outcome before it was started. I mean trying to make someone have blue eyes really isn't a improvement over brown, green, or whatever they had before.

Oh yes back to the mobs of thugs in London. Mobs are just basically a group of people having a big party at other people expenses. Just like when your drunk at a party you do stuff that really isn't thought out and just wanna be cool and fit in. Rioters are just a complete counter productive group that shits where they sleep so to say. These people most likely will act as a victim and cry for government help once the party is over. I got a kick out of the old foreign dude that was interviewed and he was all upset that the police shot someone and played the race card like it was violin.:rolleyes:

[95th Rifleman]

We are getting into the murky business of ethics and morality in regards to crime and punishment here.

These discussions never end well as each person has their own ethical and moral stance. Some are considered overly liberal and tame while others are considered barbaric and obscene. However I will state what is essentialy the core of the European view on crime and punishment.

I can't speak for America but in Europe we have a history that goes back two thousand years. We have seen the results of barbarism and cruelty and how it doesn't really deter crime in the long run. Every European nation has instituted laws and punishments that would make the harshest American consider it inhuman and this blood has stained the hands of our nations for centuries.

This is the essence of the European "liberal" approach to crime and punishment. Perhaps we have gone a little too far in our liberalism, but we will never allow ourselves to slip back to the days when we had no true justice, but public spectacles of vengeance and blood.

Taking a life is not a valid justification for state sanctioned murder, humiliation and torture is not justice. If we, as a society, are to take the moral high ground and judge these criminals, to sentence them in punishment for their crimes we can NEVER allow ourselves to become that which we sentence, otherwise we stand for nothing but hypocrisy.

[Fusilier]

These discussions never end well as each person has their own ethical and moral stance...

...and people can never seem to realize they have the power to just click the little red X at the top right of their browser if something is upsetting them too much.


Back to being light humored about it all though...

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/9829/1313608788042.jpg

[Legbreaker]

...and people can never seem to realize they have the power to just click the little red X at the top right of their browser if something is upsetting them too much.
But what if they're using an Apple? :confused:

[natehale1971]

You know... most Europeans think we use the Death Penalty willy-nilly over here. I just want you to know that is not the case. I know shows like Law & Order and the like love to show them using the Death Penalty a crapton of times. But please know that 99.9% of the time crimes that should have waranted the Death Penalty, it's not even put on the table... and the times it is put on the table (another 99.9% of the time thing here) it's to cause the gulity party to aggree to a plea bargan so they don't have to take the case to court to spare the the victim's family.

That 0.1% of the time that the Death Penalty is used there are SO many hurdles that have to be jumped and gone through to get the person executed it's not even funny. I've always felt that there should be a series of apeals courts JUST FOR DEATH PENALTY CASES. And that the cases where the death penalty is being used that the evidence has to be IRON CLAD and absolutely NO circumstansial evidence. Because the Death Penalty is final, and that we can not afford any mistakes.

I'm sorry if you think this is brutal. But there ARE some crimes that death is justified for.

Rape, Child Molestation and Murder are the three crimes that destory lives of victims and their families. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. That's one of the only two crimes in our country the Death Penalty is still allowed for here.

The other is Treason.

There are those who love to quote "Thou Shall Not Kill" for their opposition to the death penalty while supporting abortion, hypocricy of the highest order to me. While I agree that it should be legal, i do not agree that it should be used as a form of birth control... and in the United States the organization that carries them out was founded by a Nazi witch named Margret Sanger who is on the record saying she wanted to use Abortion to wipe out the African-American race along with other weeds from American society, and when 50% of African-American pregnanices are ending in Abortions it makes me wonder if she's not getting what she wanted.

But the actual phrase is NOT "Thou Shall Not Kill"... I was told by a Rabi when I was in Israel that it is actually "Thos Shall Not Commit Murder" and that murder is the unlawful taking of life. Because we Kill every time we eat something. Face it kiddies, even if you'e a Vegatarian.. you are KILLING the plantlife that you are consuming. Spock said that little bit of wisdom during an Episode of Star Trek: The Original Series.

There are some crimes that are so horendous, so out there that is an afront to ALL of society... and that the ultimate penalty, that of taking THEIR lives in response should be on the books. Even if it's nothing more as a way to force the guilty to except 25 years to life in prision instead of the possiblity of being executed for their crimes when it comes to a trail that will put victims and their families through a painful hell.

And as I have said before... this is coming from someone who's material aunt was convicted of killing her lover, and could have been executed for her crimes but was found to be guilty of second degree manslaughter beause she was not in her right mind at the time she killed Rose.

And even SHE agreed that we needed a death penalty on the books, right up until the say she died of cancer. Of course she knew alot of really nasty people in prison she said really deserved to be on Death Row, or kept locked away in a tiny hole a mile underground to keep society safe from them.

[Fusilier]

But what if they're using an Apple? :confused:

But what if they're using an Apple? :confused:
they're using an Apple? :confused:
using an Apple? :confused:
Apple? :confused:
:confused:

Me reading this post...
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2501/1253027400961.jpg

[Fusilier]

I'm sorry if you think this is brutal. But there ARE some crimes that death is justified for.

There's 2 problems I have with this.

One is that it does not seem to be an effective deterrent for Americans.
-States with capital punishment have on average a greater homicide rate (5.2).
-States without capital punishment have on average a lower homicide rate (3.3).

A difference of 35%.

In another way of looking at it, if you ranked US states by homicide rates, all but one of the top 20, would be states that have the death penalty.

Internationally speaking, besides Japan*, only third world countries still use capital punishment (concentrated in Africa, middle east, and parts of asia). Europe and Canada don't, and despite having an equivalent standard of living, they experience far less homicide rates. CP just doesn't seem to be working for America.

*Japan only executed 2

That lumps the USA in with countries like this for top ten lists...
People's Republic of China - Thousands executed
Iran 252+ executed
North Korea 60+ executed
Yemen 53+ executed
United States 46 executed
Saudi Arabia 27+ executed
Libya 18+ executed
Syria 17+ executed
Bangladesh 9+ executed
Somalia 8+ executed

The other problem I have with this, is wrongful execution. Of the thousands of people executed over the last century (especially before DNA), how many people do you think we killed for something they didn't do? IMO, if you answer more than one, it is an immoral means to deal with crime.

Thanks

[natehale1971]

I knew this wouold come up, it always does. So I'll just say this..

Fusillier look at the landry list off 'Crimes' that an you get executed in those countries. I was expecting someone to bring that up. They use the death penality for damn near anything... adultry, execution. homosexuality, execution. being seen in public with a man who is not related to you, exectuted, ect. The difference beween the US and those states is just what it takes to put someone on Death Row. LIke i said, you only get there after a series of things that goes on behind the scenes trying to come up with OTHER WAYS OF DEALING with the problem.

nor did you read where i stated that there are places that it should be reformed and cleaned up that would get rid of the possibility that an innocent man or woman would be found guilty and executed for someone elses crime or crimes. That there should be criminal courts whose entire job is to deal with death penality cases when they are brought up in Superior Court, and then over to a serious set of Appeals Courts that ddoes in there as well. And ANY apparent illegularities woule get the case tossed bck down to be retried.

[Fusilier]

They use the death penalty for damn near anything...

And it doesn't work obviously. That's my point.

The death penalty doesn't prevent crime.

nor did you read where i stated that there are places that it should be reformed and cleaned up that would get rid of the possibility that an innocent man or woman would be found guilty and executed for someone elses crime or crimes.

I did read it. But since you can't be 100% certain 100% of the time, it is irrelevant in my opinion.

I knew this wouold come up, it always does.

That should be a clear indication to you then that something is wrong.

[natehale1971]

You know Fus, you just don't get WHY the Peath Penalty is used, how it is suppose to be used and what is accomplished with it.

You are lumping the US with counties who use the death penality will-nilly for a wide range of crimes from being homosexual to actual crimes. I eve wrote dow WHY the pentalty is used, and thefact it's not used as often as it should, and when it's used that it's used to get guilty people to agree to pleed guilty for lesser charges that will get them in jail for 25 to life so that they won't have to face the death penalty when they go before a court.

Are you really saying that no one deserrves to be executed for their crimes? Mass Murder, Genocide, Rape Camps and the like? All these are crimes against humanity. And like it or not, there are people in our world who are doing things just as horrible on a daily basis who needs to be punished. And sometimes their criminal acts are just so damn hanious that they deserve to be remmoved from God's Green Earth.

Comparing the US who only exectes fro TWO reasons to countries who have massively different ways to decide to go with executions...

Are you saying that in your T2k World that something like this happening, you'dd just slap them on their hands and let them go with a pat on their head and runalong?

My campaigns are pretty straight forward. When the PCs had access to sending EPOWS to the rear to the stockade and holding camps. at the Cantonments, it was as simple as that. But when they didn't have that ability, they more times more than not stripped them of everything they had of value, marked them and said taht if they were ever encountere again they'd be executed. The execution of EPOW was something that only happened if it was apsoluately necessary. and if they had been caught doing something horrendous (rape, child rape, murder and a few other nasty things)

Using your exmaples... these two countries have entrely different versions of what gets you capital punishiment, and it's NOTHING like what we have here.

In the People's Republic of China there are 55 criminal offences that are eligible for the death penalty. Many of these offences are non-violent and economic criminal offences. The following are just a few of them.

Crimes of Endangering Public Security

1. Committing arson, breaching a dike, causing explosion, spreading poison or inflicting serious injury or death on people or causes heavy losses of public or private property by other dangerous means.
2. Sabotaging any means of transport, transportation facility, electric power facility, gas facility, or inflammable or explosive equipment, thereby causing serious consequences
3. Any hijacker who causes serious injury to or death of any other person or serious damage to aircraft
4. Illegally manufacturing, trading, transporting, mailing or storing any guns, ammunition or explosives in serious circumstances.
5. Stealing or forcibly seizing any guns, ammunition or explosives in serious circumstances.
6. Robbery of any guns, ammunition or explosives or stealing or forcibly seizing any guns, ammunition or explosives from State organs, members of the armed forces, the police or the people's militia
7. Producing or selling fake medicines that cause death especially if serious harm is done to human health.
8. Whoever mixes the foods that he produces or sells with toxic or harmful non-food raw materials or knowingly sells such foods that cause death or especially serious harm.

Crimes of Smuggling

9. Smuggling drugs, weapons, ammunition, nuclear materials or counterfeit currency if circumstances are serious.

Crimes of Disrupting the Order of Financial Administration


11. Whoever counterfeits currencies and
a. being a ringleader of a gang engaged in counterfeiting currencies;
b. having counterfeited currencies in especially huge, amounts; or
c. being involved in other especially serious circumstances.

Crimes of Infringing Upon Citizens' Right of the Person and Democratic Rights.

17. Intentionally commits homicide
18. Intentionally inflicting injury upon another person AND if he/she causes death to the person or, by resorting to especially cruel means, causes severe injury to the person, reducing the person to utter disability
19. Raping a woman or has sexual intercourse with a girl under the age of 14 in any of the following circumstances:
(1) the circumstances being flagrant;
(2) raping a number of women or girls under the age of 14;
(3) raping a woman before the public in a public place;
(4) raping a woman with one or more persons in succession; or
(5) causing serious injury or death to the victim or any other serious consequences.
20. Unlawfully detaining another person or unlawfully deprives the personal freedom of another person by any other means AND if he causes injury, disability or death to the victim by violence.
21. Unlawfully detaining or confines another person in order to get payment of a debt does the same in (20)
22. Where a functionary of a State organ commits any of the crimes mentioned in (20).
23. Kidnapping another person for the purpose of extorting money or property or kidnaps another person as a hostage AND Whoever kidnaps another person for the purpose of extorting money or property or kidnaps another person as a hostage.
24. Abducting and trafficking in a woman or child AND if the circumstances are especially serious beyond the following:
(1) being a ringleader of a gang engaged in abducting and trafficking in women and children;
(2) abducting and trafficking in three or more women and/or children;
(3) raping the woman who is abducted and trafficked in;
(4) enticing or forcing the woman who is abducted and trafficked in to engage in prostitution, or selling such woman to any other person who would force her to engage in prostitution;
(5) kidnapping a woman or child by means of violence, coercion or anaesthesia for the purpose of selling the victim;
(6) stealing a baby or an infant for the purpose of selling the victim;
(7) causing serious injury or death to the woman or child who is abducted and trafficked in or to her or his relatives or any other serious consequences; or
(8) selling a woman or a child out of the territory of China.

Other


Illegally selling or transfers weapons or equipment of the armed forces AND if a large amount of weapons or equipment is sold or transferred or if there are other especially serious circumstances involved.
Any serviceman who, during wartime, cruelly injures innocent residents in an area of military operation or plunders their money or property AND if the circumstances are serious.


Capital punishment is legal and applied in Iran. Capital crimes are murder, rape, adultery, pedophilia, sodomy, drug trafficking, moharebeh (waging war on people or God) and mofsed-e-filarz (spreading corruption on earth). Various sources claim that up to 312 people were executed in Iran in 2010, the commonly accepted number being around 180. The overwhelming majority were drug traffickers, and virtually all executions are carried out for murder, aggravated rape, large scale drug trafficking, and armed robbery (cases usually resulting in rape/death).

Iran has garnered Western media attention and criticism for allegedly carrying out lethal punishments, like stoning, and executions of minors, despite having signed the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which forbids executing "child" offenders for crimes committed under the age of 18. However, Iran claims dispensation in cases where the Convention is deemed "incompatible with Islamic jurisprudence". An Iranian judiciary spokesman fiercely denied that it executes juvenile criminals or stones people to death, describing it as "propaganda against Iranian state" Iran is alleged to have the second highest execution rate in the world, second to China, although other countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Nigeria and many more allegedly carry out secret executions.

Executions of women in Iran happen less often, and only account for a handful of executions every year. Only four women were executed in Iran in 2010.

Death sentences in Iran are in theory legal for eight different crimes: armed robbery, treason, murder, drug trafficking, rape, pedophilia, sodomy, kidnapping and terrorism.

[Fusilier]

Lemme put it this way again...

Innocent people in the United States have been, and will be, executed for crimes they didn't commit. From a morale stand point, I can't support such a system. It is unacceptable in my mind to utilize a system that kills innocent people.

That's my main counter argument why I think it is barbaric.

You know Fus, you just don't get WHY the Peath Penalty is used, how it is suppose to be used and what is accomplished with it.

I'd wager, neither do Americans since your homicide rates are through the roof despite your electric chairs and lethal injections.

You are lumping the US with counties who use the death penality will-nilly for a wide range of crimes

To show that even with the death penalty these willy-nilly crimes still occur. The death penalty neither prevented the crime from happening or stopped future crimes from happening.

...it's used to get guilty people to agree to plead guilty for lesser charges that will get them in jail for 25 to life so that they won't have to face the death penalty when they go before a court.

What about those who aren't guilty? How do they react to this coercion?

And sometimes their criminal acts are just so damn hanious that they deserve to be remmoved from God's Green Earth.

I never said they didn't need to be removed - from society.

Comparing the US who only exectes fro TWO reasons to countries who have massively different ways to decide to go with executions...

Your system is not perfect either. Hence, my earlier point of innocent people being executed for something they didn't commit.

Are you saying that in your T2k World that something like this happening, you'd just slap them on their hands and let them go with a pat on their head and runalong?

That is a strawman argument.

I never said anything about slapping people on the hands and letting them go. Unless you can site where I said criminals shouldn't be punished, you are deliberately misrepresenting me. For the matter, I believe in rehabilitation for criminals and separating those from society who are beyond rehabilitation. You know... how the country's with much lower homicide rates do it. It seems to be working for them after all.

In the fiction of Tw2000, there isn't the means to properly do this under the extraordinary situations so I don't think it applies to today. And it wouldn't make it right anyways - it would simply be an immoral requirement.

[Raellus]

Hey fellas, opinions clearly run the gamut here and passion can sometimes get the better of us. Let's try to keep the tone respectful. I think this debate is OK to have and, IMHO, no one has quite overstepped the bounds of what is acceptable here, but let's make sure that we're not getting carried away and shooting from the hip.

At the very beginning of my PotV PbP, a PC summarily executed a bound and wounded marauder prisoner. The IC and OOC debate surrounding this IG act led to at least one player quitting the game and it almost sank the campaign before it really even began. What I'm trying to say is that this is a very touchy subject and we need to keep that in mind while engaging in mature and respectful discussions.

[natehale1971]

Fusilier you are thinking that we don't have ways to find innocents to make sure that they aren't executed. What was it about all those hoops that has be be jumped through to just get someone to be charged with a Death Penalty case, and after conviction to get executed. There are safeguards all through the progame. And it's not just bam you're guilty, then taken out back and executed.

You go through a series of appeals that the taxpayers pay for. that investigates all aspects of the crime and how they were found guilty. To date it looks as if NONE have been executed falsely. the average time spent on death row are 20 years or more. during that time they are going through their appeals.

Do you think i want an inncoent person to be put to death? YOu're making the 'strawman' assumption that is the case. Becaue it's not. I would rather a thousand guilty go free than have ONE innocent man go to jail or be put to death.

I want to make sure only those who deserve to be put down are done so. And if you would have read about how i feel it should be inacted, that the level of needs of evidence that would be used to convict them.

I've given you ther reasons WHY we need the death penalty. It's thought out and backed up with history. And the fact that we've not to my knowledge executed innocents in this country should show just how deeply these cases are investigated and prosecuted. I would rather we didn't need to have the death penalty. But using it as a bargeting chip during negotations happening behind the scenes and having it for those criminals how DESERVE it is just to great of a need to just throw it out.

[Raellus]

You go through a series of appeals that the taxpayers pay for. that investigates all aspects of the crime and how they were found guilty. To date it looks as if NONE have been executed falsely. the average time spent on death row are 20 years or more. during that time they are going through their appeals.


Really? I'd like to see the sources substantiating this claim. I'm pretty sure that I've heard of more than a couple of cases where people were executed only for evidence (usually DNA that could not be processed due to non-existent technology) to surface exonerating them. If this is not the case, I'd love to be proven wrong. The execution of innocents is one of my biggest objections to capital punishment- that, and the lack of evidence backing it as a deterent to crime.

[kato13]

This thread is now 100% political so I am locking it.