British 7th Armoured Brigade

[James Langham]

Now that I am back from annual camp (having upset one of the staff at the Royal Armouries by knowing more about the Sten than she did), here is the first of the requested articles.

As ever nitpicks welcomed.

[95th Rifleman]

James if you where a girl I'd kiss you!

[James Langham]

Thanks, it's appreciated.

Nobody spot any errors this time? :-)

[Rainbow Six]

Good job - living in the North of Scotland it's nice to see Cock o' the North mentioned.

Just a couple of minor nitpicks...nothing major

Tidworth's in Wiltshire, not Yorkshire! :)

Also in your final order of battle you have 1st Bn, Queen's Dragoon Guards - as a Cavalry Regiment I don't think they would be classed as a Battalion? You've switched between the Queen's Dragoon Guards and the Royal Dragoon Guards a few times...is that a typo? Also, if you're using the Royal Dragoon Guards are you using a full post Options for Change order of battle?

[James Langham]

Good job - living in the North of Scotland it's nice to see Cock o' the North mentioned.

Just a couple of minor nitpicks...nothing major

Tidworth's in Wiltshire, not Yorkshire! :)

Also in your final order of battle you have 1st Bn, Queen's Dragoon Guards - as a Cavalry Regiment I don't think they would be classed as a Battalion? You've switched between the Queen's Dragoon Guards and the Royal Dragoon Guards a few times...is that a typo? Also, if you're using the Royal Dragoon Guards are you using a full post Options for Change order of battle?

Tidworth was going to be Catterick but I changed it and missed the reference.

QDG I thank has Bns but I may be wrong - I'm an infantryman at heart...

All references should be QDG nor RDG - will correct.

Thanks for the input.

[dragoon500ly]

As always James, a joy to read....

But rap?!?! I chastise you SIR! Chastise I say!

:rolleyes:

[Rainbow Six]

Tidworth was going to be Catterick but I changed it and missed the reference.

QDG I thank has Bns but I may be wrong - I'm an infantryman at heart...

All references should be QDG nor RDG - will correct.

Thanks for the input.

No probs - that all makes sense.

I'm fairly certain QDG is a single Regiment with the full title 1st The Queen's Dragoon Guards (and the nickname the Welsh Cavalry).

[Louied]

I have to back up Rainbow on this, it's definitely 1st The Queen's Dragoon Guards. All the RAC units are considered Regiments not Battalions (including The Royal Tank Regiment whose units actually were Battalions but picked up the Regiment Nomenclature officially after World War 2).

James, I think your shorts are great !! That's why I hate to be nit-picky but....
the 7th along with 4th & 20th Armoured Brigades were Armour Heavy, having 2 Armoured Regiments and 1 Armoured Infantry Bn. The 22nd Ard. Bde. had 2 each. However the BAOR seems to have constantly gone through reorganizations so ........Also the QDG's had settled into the Ard. Recce. role by the early eighties, however right after Options for Change they did re-role to Ard.

Hope this helps and keep up the good work.
Louie

[James Langham]

As always James, a joy to read....

But rap?!?! I chastise you SIR! Chastise I say!

:rolleyes:

Unfortunately I couldn't work in a character who writes opera...

Blame Andy McNab's War Torn for the idea.

[Rainbow Six]

This thread has just reminded me that I think James Blunt would probably still have been a serving officer in the Life Guards during the Twilight War.

(Wiki link added for those who've never heard of him as I have no clue how popular James Blunt is - or isn't - outside the UK)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blunt

[James Langham]

I have to back up Rainbow on this, it's definitely 1st The Queen's Dragoon Guards. All the RAC units are considered Regiments not Battalions (including The Royal Tank Regiment whose units actually were Battalions but picked up the Regiment Nomenclature officially after World War 2).

James, I think your shorts are great !! That's why I hate to be nit-picky but....
the 7th along with 4th & 20th Armoured Brigades were Armour Heavy, having 2 Armoured Regiments and 1 Armoured Infantry Bn. The 22nd Ard. Bde. had 2 each. However the BAOR seems to have constantly gone through reorganizations so ........Also the QDG's had settled into the Ard. Recce. role by the early eighties, however right after Options for Change they did re-role to Ard.

Hope this helps and keep up the good work.
Louie

Thanks - will change the designation.

Organisations are a nightmare, in 2003 (real life) 7th was 2 infantry and 2 armoured units. 2010 real life organisation (which I used as a starting point) was infantry heavy (1+3) and the Survivor's Guide was also infantry heavy (1+2). Given that there is no TA heavy armour I have assumed that some heavy armour was added to them (I need to sit and work out in detail where all British units are). I had re-rolled the QDG to armoured for the same reason (and they are that way in TW2000 - I try and stay as close as I can to canon).

I do appreciate the nit picking it improves the articles.

[Rainbow Six]

Organisations are a nightmare, in 2003 (real life) 7th was 2 infantry and 2 armoured units. 2010 real life organisation (which I used as a starting point) was infantry heavy (1+3) and the Survivor's Guide was also infantry heavy (1+2). Given that there is no TA heavy armour I have assumed that some heavy armour was added to them (I need to sit and work out in detail where all British units are). I had re-rolled the QDG to armoured for the same reason (and they are that way in TW2000 - I try and stay as close as I can to canon).

The Arms Plot system really doesn't help here...;)

[James Langham]

This thread has just reminded me that I think James Blunt would probably still have been a serving officer in the Life Guards during the Twilight War.

(Wiki link added for those who've never heard of him as I have no clue how popular James Blunt is - or isn't - outside the UK)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blunt

He actually made it into my background (although not named) based on his comments when he was interviewed about his time in the Army on Top Gear.

I will try and find the quote when I have chance.

[dude_uk]

Cracking work James, I also tracked down your article on the 44th Airborne Brigade which I have just finished reading.

One spelling error, you spelt fusiliers as 'fusileers' a couple of times.

One further thing you said you used the 2010 ORBAT as the starting off point rather than a Late 80's/early 90's ORBAT, why was this? I just enquired because you used the early 80's designation of medical regiments rather than field ambulances.

Whats next on the cards?

[James Langham]

Cracking work James, I also tracked down your article on the 44th Airborne Brigade which I have just finished reading.

One spelling error, you spelt fusiliers as 'fusileers' a couple of times.

One further thing you said you used the 2010 ORBAT as the starting off point rather than a Late 80's/early 90's ORBAT, why was this? I just enquired because you used the early 80's designation of medical regiments rather than field ambulances.

Whats next on the cards?

Will correct spelling errors on next draft - for some reason spelling checker did not pick it up.

I used the 2010 orbat simply as it was handy when I started!

Next I'm working on an article on British MBTs and variants (unless I find a short article to write as a break!).

[Louied]

Hey James,
Here are a couple of files that might help you
The first is from correspondence with the RAC Museum and the second is RAC deployments since 19481608

1609

[James Langham]

Revised version - thanks for the comments. Still happy to add further changes if anyone else spots faults.

[Raellus]

Really entertaining read. Very realistic and believable. Great work, James.

[95th Rifleman]

I noticed an ommision on the attached units list. A brigade tends to get an ADA battery attached. In '96 this would of most likely been a javelin LML battery which would of been replaced by a stormer battery carrying the starstreak HVM around the end of '97 beginning of '98.

[Legbreaker]

In '96 this would of most likely been a javelin LML battery which would of been replaced by a stormer battery carrying the starstreak HVM around the end of '97 beginning of '98.

Provided production post nuke could have made this possible. I'm sure a number of units would have been upgraded, but the newer weapons are likely to see service only around the front lines.

[95th Rifleman]

Provided production post nuke could have made this possible. I'm sure a number of units would have been upgraded, but the newer weapons are likely to see service only around the front lines.

The British army only had 2 armoured divisions in 96 (we are down to just one these days as most of the old tank regimenst have been either disbanded or converted to CVR(T)s). So I think both these divisons would get priority on equipment.

The infantry divisions would of gotten the cast offs, some may even end up with the old Blowpipes left over from the 80's.

[James Langham]

I noticed an ommision on the attached units list. A brigade tends to get an ADA battery attached. In '96 this would of most likely been a javelin LML battery which would of been replaced by a stormer battery carrying the starstreak HVM around the end of '97 beginning of '98.

I had assumed that these were at divisional level and attached as required. I'll have to look at 1st (UK) Armoured as a whole I think.

[95th Rifleman]

I had assumed that these were at divisional level and attached as required. I'll have to look at 1st (UK) Armoured as a whole I think.

ADA assets are attached at brigade level in the British army with each brigade assighned an ADA battery which is then assighned as needed by the Brigade commander.

British ADA is split into two catergories. You have the Rapiers which are used at higher level to defend HQ's, depots, fixed artillery and airfields.

The second catergory is the more portable SAMs used at brigade level for defence against low flying fixed wing aircraft and rotary wing aircraft. The British use the LML system (which is essentilay 3 shoulder-launched SAMs on a tripod). However it is also mounted on the Alvis Stormer which is the version used by the two brigades of 1st Armoured.

Back in the 80's we had Blowpipe ut that was replaced by the Javelin (no relation to the ATGM). In the late 90's Britain abandoned conventional heat seeking/radar guided systems for the Starstreak HMV which fires 3 high velocity darts and relies on kinetic rather than explosive force. They are guided via a laser beam fired from the launching platform (either the vehicle, LML or the shoulder launch unit).

Some of the confusion arises as an ADA regiment is assighned at divisonal level and then split up to be given to the Brigade before being chopped up further and assighned on to battlegroups. however they operate with the brigade and battlegroups and come under Brigade command.

[95th Rifleman]

Currently the 12th Regt RA handles Air defence for the brigades of the 1st Armoured (and 2nd armoured, our cost cutting is getting bad).

In the Gulf war 10 (Assaye) battery of the 36th Regt RA was assighned to the 7th Armoured Brigade (they had the javelin during the Gulf war).

I can't find info on which battery/regiment was assighned to the 7th in the late 90's.

[Rainbow Six]

I had assumed that these were at divisional level and attached as required. I'll have to look at 1st (UK) Armoured as a whole I think.

I have a book at home (today is first day back at work after two weeks leave :() called BAOR: An Organisational History 1947 - 2004, which is extremely detailed down to Battalion level and including Signals, Logistics, etc, so can post a full orbat for the 1st (UK) Armoured when I get home later. RAC Regiments / Infantry Battalions would vary due to Arms Plotting but it would give an idea of what the Division would look like.

[Rainbow Six]

Source for this material (with the exception of the TA) is The British Army in Germany (BAOR and after): An Organisational History 1947 - 2004 by Graham Watson and Richard Rinaldi. RAC, RA, and Infantry Regts / Bns assigned at any given time varied due to Arms Plotting.

1st (UK) Armoured Division, 1989 - 1992

1st Armoured Division HQ and Signal Regiment - Verden

1 x Armd Recce Regt - Wolfenbuttel (CVR(T))

3 x Royal Artillery Field Regts - Hohne x 2 (1 x M109, 1 x Abbot), Osnabruck x 1 (M109); Osnabruck Regt assigned to Close Support 12th Armd Bde, Hohne Abbot Regt assigned to 22nd Armd Bde, Hohne M109 Regt assigned to 7th Arm Bde

10th Air Defence Battery RA - Hohne (Blowpipe)

21 Engineer Regt, RE (1, 4, 7 Field Sqns and 45 Field Support Sqn) - Nienburg

1st Regt Army Air Corps (651, 652, 661 Sqns) - Hildesheim

1st Armd Dvn Transport Regt (2, 4, 33 Sqns and 74 HQ Sqn) - Bunde (merged into 1st Regt RLC after Options For Change)

1st Ordnance Bn, RAOC - Location unknown (merged into 1st Regt RLC after Options For Change) (Location may have been Verden)

1st Armoured Dvn REME (7 and 12 Workshops REME) - Location unknown (merged into 1st Bn REME after Options For Change) (7 Workshop may have been at Fallingbostel and 12 at Osnabruck)

1st Armoured Dvn RAMC - Location unknown (May have been Hohne)

7th Armoured Brigade (2 x Armd Regts (MBT), 1 x Infantry Bn (Warrior))

HQ and 207 Signal Sqn - Soltau
1 x Armd Regt - Soltau
1 x Armd Regt - Hohne
1 x Inf Bn - Fallingbostel

7 Armd Bde would also be reinforced by one light role TA Bn (4th Battalion, Royal Green Jackets)

12th Armoured Brigade (1 x Armd Regt (MBT), 2 x Infantry Bn (Warrior))

HQ and 212 Signal Sqn - Osnabruck
1 x Armd Regt - Osnabruck
1 x Inf Bn - Osnabruck
1 x Inf Bn - Osnabruck

22nd Armoured Brigade (2 x Armd Regt (MBT), 2 x Infantry Bn (Warrior)

HQ and 201 Signal Sqn - Hohne
1 x Armd Regt - Hohne
1 x Armd Regt - Hohne
1 x Inf Bn - Fallingbostel
1 x Inf Bn - Celle

Several sources also state that the three TA Para Bns (4, 10, and 15 Para) would be assigned to 1st Armoured Dvn as Division Troops.

As best as I can tell the basic structure remained relatively unchanged until the end of 1992, when Options for Change caused major restructuring

Hope this helps...I think there would have been an RMP Provost Company as well but can't confirm which.

[Rainbow Six]

I can't find info on which battery/regiment was assighned to the 7th in the late 90's.

I could only track down down one Regular Battery tasked for air defence for the entire 1st Division but there were a number of TA Air Defence Battalions which were definitely tasked with reinforcing BAOR in time of War so I think it's possible that one of them could have gone to each Division to provide additional ADA, although I can't confirm that 100%.

[95th Rifleman]

I could only track down down one Regular Battery tasked for air defence for the entire 1st Division but there were a number of TA Air Defence Battalions which were definitely tasked with reinforcing BAOR in time of War so I think it's possible that one of them could have gone to each Division to provide additional ADA, although I can't confirm that 100%.

Yeah, all i could find was pretty much the same. It seems that post-gulf war, the TA regiments where given the ADA role and apparently would be assighned to brigades on deployment.

[natehale1971]

Would any of our british members be willing to help me with an article i'm writing for my Twiligth 2000 project?

I need some help with describing the British Armed Forces in my setting, that instead of the drawdowns in 1992... the expansion of the Cold War had caused somewhat of an expansion. That including new military production industry (for domestic consumption and export to the other British Commonwealth of Nations members).

And once the war started, the recreation of the Home Guard as the Territorial Army was being moblilzed for deploment overseas to support an expanded Regular Army that saw many regiments that had been disbanded being reconstituted...

All the things I've found online has been kind of confusing, and i really would like someone who knows about the subject to help me with my writing so it's not so blantantly obvious that i have no idea what i'm talking about.

[Louied]

In 1989 there were three seperate AD Bty.'s, one to each Ard. Div. Each consisted of a Bty. HQ and three Troops each with two sections of six Javelin/Blowpipe launchers, for a total of 36 launchers & 36 Spartan APC's (personnel total was 5 officers & 131 OR's). Basically, equipment wise, making it almost a regiment without the overhead.
- 10 (Assaye) LAD Bty.
- 21 (Gibraltar 1779-83) LAD Bty.
- 46 LAD Bty. (Lloyd's Company)

Additionally there were four tracked Rapier Bty.'s of 12 Tracked Rapier fire units each (two Bty.'s each to the two Corps AD Rgt.'s) which in wartime would be assigned one to each Ard. Div plus one as a Corps Reserve.

[95th Rifleman]

All the things I've found online has been kind of confusing.

Congratulations sir, you have succeeded in capturing the essence of the British army! Most of the time not even the british army know what it is doig.

I'll do some legwork and try to find some info for you. The biggest problem is the regimental system, it's very confusing for folks who are usedto American style divisional systems.

[natehale1971]

Thank you!

This is some of what I'm working on... namely about the Home Guard that was organized after the Territorial Army was mobilized. I'm guessing at what weapons, vehicles and equipment that the Home Guard would be equipped with... basicly having them wearing old-style pre-DPM battle dress uniforms (going with them wearing them for service dress and combat dress). I saw them using old weapons, apcs and tanks that were still in strategic stockpiles.


Home Guard

The British Government began organizing a modern Home Guard as Territorial Army units were being activated for their immediate mobilization for deployment overseas, along with the reestablishment of many of the disestablished & disbanded units of the past decades for expanding the Regular Army. The Home Guard

The British Home Guard units were equipped with weapons, vehicles and equipment that were issued from the strategic stockpiles. Home Guard units wore khaki battle dress uniforms that had been retired after the adoption of the modern DPM battle dress.

L1A1 SLR 7.62mm assault rifle
FV214 Conqueror main battle tank
FV4007 Centurion main battle tank


I'm also coming up with fictional vehicles that are based on some actual concepts as well.. like unmanned aerial vehicles, and a fifth generation fighter... an updated harrier jumpjet for the British aircraft carriers.

The British Defense Industry was increased to provide export sales to commonwealth states... with the collapse of the EU proposals, and growth of various competing military alliances (Med Alliances, Congo Pact, Beijing Pact, Havana Pact, ect) they had alot of people who'd be buying from them.

BAE Systems Corax unmanned aerial vehicle
BAE Systems Phoenix reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle
BAE Systems <> high endurance reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle
BAE Systems Fury high endurance unmanned combat aerial vehicle
Zephyr
BAE Systems <> unmanned combat aerial vehicle

[95th Rifleman]

I'd suggest you start a new thread on this, so we can all add without going off topic on James' 7th Armoured.

[James Langham]

Thank you!

This is some of what I'm working on... namely about the Home Guard that was organized after the Territorial Army was mobilized. I'm guessing at what weapons, vehicles and equipment that the Home Guard would be equipped with... basicly having them wearing old-style pre-DPM battle dress uniforms (going with them wearing them for service dress and combat dress). I saw them using old weapons, apcs and tanks that were still in strategic stockpiles.


Home Guard

The British Government began organizing a modern Home Guard as Territorial Army units were being activated for their immediate mobilization for deployment overseas, along with the reestablishment of many of the disestablished & disbanded units of the past decades for expanding the Regular Army. The Home Guard

The British Home Guard units were equipped with weapons, vehicles and equipment that were issued from the strategic stockpiles. Home Guard units wore khaki battle dress uniforms that had been retired after the adoption of the modern DPM battle dress.

L1A1 SLR 7.62mm assault rifle
FV214 Conqueror main battle tank
FV4007 Centurion main battle tank


I'm also coming up with fictional vehicles that are based on some actual concepts as well.. like unmanned aerial vehicles, and a fifth generation fighter... an updated harrier jumpjet for the British aircraft carriers.

The British Defense Industry was increased to provide export sales to commonwealth states... with the collapse of the EU proposals, and growth of various competing military alliances (Med Alliances, Congo Pact, Beijing Pact, Havana Pact, ect) they had alot of people who'd be buying from them.

BAE Systems Corax unmanned aerial vehicle
BAE Systems Phoenix reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle
BAE Systems <> high endurance reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle
BAE Systems Fury high endurance unmanned combat aerial vehicle
Zephyr
BAE Systems <> unmanned combat aerial vehicle

Nate, battledress stocks would be long gone, there are however a lot of older pattern DPM kits that may still be stockpiled (as a guess anyone issued with old kit will go out and buy later patterns anyway). If you want them dressed differently, how about OG overallls maybe with a brassard for ranks.

Might be worth reading up on the Home Service Force as this gives you an already existing Home Guard type unit that could easily be expanded.

Most will be light infantry - armour will likely be light at best. Some might even end up with .303 No4s and Brens which are still in storage. Converted L98s might also be common. Conquerors have all been used as range targets, ditto most of the remaining Centurions.

It is unlikely that regiments will reform, it is more likely to be an expansion of existing regiments or possibly the creation of new ones for new roles (e.g. NBC Reporting Regiment).

[natehale1971]

Thank you James!

If you can help me with this i'd greatly appreacate it. I started up a new thread so I wouldn't hijack yours. The Olive Green overalls sounds good... since i didn't kno wabout the Home Service Force, and wanted to have the Home Guard as full-time civlians and part-time soldiers.

I had read where there were some regiments had been disbanded in the late-1960s instead of being algemated... and it gave me the thought that they could either be reestablished, or those regiments that had ben algemated being split back off to their original regiments.

I know in the US, we can reestablish regiments, divisions and the like at a later date. Isn't that how it's done with the UK?

Nate, battledress stocks would be long gone, there are however a lot of older pattern DPM kits that may still be stockpiled (as a guess anyone issued with old kit will go out and buy later patterns anyway). If you want them dressed differently, how about OG overallls maybe with a brassard for ranks.

Might be worth reading up on the Home Service Force as this gives you an already existing Home Guard type unit that could easily be expanded.

Most will be light infantry - armour will likely be light at best. Some might even end up with .303 No4s and Brens which are still in storage. Converted L98s might also be common. Conquerors have all been used as range targets, ditto most of the remaining Centurions.

It is unlikely that regiments will reform, it is more likely to be an expansion of existing regiments or possibly the creation of new ones for new roles (e.g. NBC Reporting Regiment).

[dragoon500ly]

Unfortunately I couldn't work in a character who writes opera...

Blame Andy McNab's War Torn for the idea.

Naw, I'm more a classic rock kinda guy....;)

[James Langham]

This thread has just reminded me that I think James Blunt would probably still have been a serving officer in the Life Guards during the Twilight War.

(Wiki link added for those who've never heard of him as I have no clue how popular James Blunt is - or isn't - outside the UK)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Blunt

My background text:

“We got a great new subbie in early 1997, typical new officer straight from Sandhurst after Harrow. I was his driver, he was a real character, great guitarist played all the classics, nice singer too if a little high pitched. Even started writing his own songs, sometimes they were a bit dark though. I remember one song 'No Bravery' very well. Used dark humour a lot too with “It's Bloody Cold” to make fun of himself. He used to sing those two a lot. He always reckoned that he was one of the most shot at people on the planet being the lead element all the time but as he said if we are that close to the enemy at least we aren't likely to get nuked! He always used to joke that he should put his guitar inside the Scimitar for safe-keeping and strap one of the crew to the outside but that the OC would probably be unhappy with that. In fact that was his threat every time someone screwed up. I think he was joking!”
Trooper Peter Watson
Blues and Royals

[Rainbow Six]

Nice one...on a semi related vein, anything in your history on a former Life Guards officer named Hewitt? ;)

[James Langham]

Nice one...on a semi related vein, anything in your history on a former Life Guards officer named Hewitt? ;)

There will be at some point...

[natehale1971]

My so-called 'wife' loved James Blunt, and i've got all of his CDs as gifts for her... but even before her i had heard of him. He even stared on the last episode of "Las Vegas"


My background text:

“We got a great new subbie in early 1997, typical new officer straight from Sandhurst after Harrow. I was his driver, he was a real character, great guitarist played all the classics, nice singer too if a little high pitched. Even started writing his own songs, sometimes they were a bit dark though. I remember one song 'No Bravery' very well. Used dark humour a lot too with “It's Bloody Cold” to make fun of himself. He used to sing those two a lot. He always reckoned that he was one of the most shot at people on the planet being the lead element all the time but as he said if we are that close to the enemy at least we aren't likely to get nuked! He always used to joke that he should put his guitar inside the Scimitar for safe-keeping and strap one of the crew to the outside but that the OC would probably be unhappy with that. In fact that was his threat every time someone screwed up. I think he was joking!”
Trooper Peter Watson
Blues and Royals