USMC questions

[Brother in Arms]

What are acceptable MOS's for Female soldiers in the Marine Corps before the twilight war?

Also I assume during the war all Mos's would be acceptable for women.

BIA

[natehale1971]

I the Corps, everyone get's basic Infantry training... only direct combat MOSs have been denied to women so far. With the T2k setting, all of the MOS have been opened up.

[ArmySGT.]

MWR

Morale, Welfare, and Recreation equipment.

[kota1342000]

Nate is correct. By the 1988 to 1998 time frame, the only MOS closed to Women were ground combat arms positions; 0300 Infantry, 0800 Artillery, 1800 Tank and Amtrack crew, and Combat Engineer positions (cant remember the MOS code) though all other Engineer positions were open.
I remember some of the Women I served with after I became an instructor (did it to me when I was asleep LOL), told me they went Motor Transport or EOD because it was the closest they could get to the Infantry.

The Basic Rifleman training is called MCT (Marine Combat Training), 4 weeks, and just up the road from the School of Infantry...at least at Camp Pendleton. Short humps compared to what came later but lots of good Infantry stuff, and almost the entire time in the field. :)

[Raellus]

Do you folks out there think that USMC combat MOS's would be opened up to women by 2000 (in the T2KU)? I can at least see women as AFV crewmen. I'm working on a project involving a Marine infantry battalion in the summer of 2000 and I wonder how prominently female Marines should be portrayed.

[Fusilier]

Do you folks out there think that USMC combat MOS's would be opened up to women by 2000 (in the T2KU)? I can at least see women as AFV crewmen. I'm working on a project involving a Marine infantry battalion in the summer of 2000 and I wonder how prominently female Marines should be portrayed.

What are the real world reasons why they aren't now? Are they stated?

[pmulcahy11b]

What are the real world reasons why they aren't now? Are they stated?

It's not stated, but the word you're looking for is chauvinism.

[Fusilier]

It's not stated, but the word you're looking for is chauvinism.

If that's the reason, then I can't see why a manpower starved organization wouldn't opt to allow anyone in who can pass the training (any MOS).

Their allies and enemies would be doing it - why get left behind and lose out on potential manpower? It's a brave new world and the old ways are out.

[LAW0306]

First off all know here that I'm an active duty Marine and have 20 years EXP in the infantry, if you did not know now you do.

I would not have too many females in a Battalion because there is just not that many! they arn't around. in 1995 they were few and far between. I did not see many and I was at a base with all types of units. Right now today women only repersent 6% of the Marine Corps at 11,000. thats with a total force of 202K active and 40K reserve. so the bare numbers speak for themselfs. most women are not even in this war at any forward bases. you just dont see them. I have two tours in Iraq and Two in Afghanistan. there are small 4 person teams that come to you battalion for a week once a month that are female engagement teams. but they dont work well because there mission is to talk to females in afghanistan....well they stay in side all day and only the very old and very young come out, plus we dont have many female terps so they would not be able to talk to them anyway.

On the logistics side its very rare to see a female convoy commander for a logistics unit or females in there units, most dont want to be out in the shit and if they do they are in the teams i mentioned above and good on them for wanting to kick ass. We did have a Sgt Maj for a logistics unit in our AO that was a female, rare bird here, very strong leader and in very good shape. i had the honor of eating dinner with here twice and she came off as a real pro. thats my two cents and i dont have a opinion if they should be there or not. I let higher figure that out and I comply with orders and none of my views are that of the Marine Corps ,just some one thats been there and missed the line for the T-shirt. If you would like more info on the Marines just Mail me and I would love to help. I have a write up for the Corps in T2k that I have been working on for 10 some years. some day I hope to finish.;)

[LAW0306]

Total DOD forces (201,575) 14.6% Enlisted (165,231) 14.5% Officers (34,045) 15.2% Army (70,918) 13.7% Enlisted (57,825) 13.4% Officers (12,459) 14.7% Navy (50,904) 15.0% Enlisted (42,400) 15.0% Officers (7,649) 14.8% Marine Corps (11,150) 6.0% Enlisted (10,049) 6.1% Officers (1,101) 5.6% Air Force (68,600) 20.3% Enlisted (54,957) 20.7% Officers (12,836) 18.9%


These are Present day numbers or the closest I could find.

[LAW0306]

I also spell like crap...so you can hit me on that one later. I type to fast for my own good and too lazy to go back.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

First off all know here that I'm an active duty Marine and have 20 years EXP in the infantry, if you did not know now you do.

I would not have too many females in a Battalion because there is just not that many! they arn't around. in 1995 they were few and far between. I did not see many and I was at a base with all types of units. Right now today women only repersent 6% of the Marine Corps at 11,000. thats with a total force of 202K active and 40K reserve. so the bare numbers speak for themselfs. most women are not even in this war at any forward bases. you just dont see them. I have two tours in Iraq and Two in Afghanistan. there are small 4 person teams that come to you battalion for a week once a month that are female engagement teams. but they dont work well because there mission is to talk to females in afghanistan....well they stay in side all day and only the very old and very young come out, plus we dont have many female terps so they would not be able to talk to them anyway.

On the logistics side its very rare to see a female convoy commander for a logistics unit or females in there units, most dont want to be out in the shit and if they do they are in the teams i mentioned above and good on them for wanting to kick ass. We did have a Sgt Maj for a logistics unit in our AO that was a female, rare bird here, very strong leader and in very good shape. i had the honor of eating dinner with here twice and she came off as a real pro. thats my two cents and i dont have a opinion if they should be there or not. I let higher figure that out and I comply with orders and none of my views are that of the Marine Corps ,just some one thats been there and missed the line for the T-shirt. If you would like more info on the Marines just Mail me and I would love to help. I have a write up for the Corps in T2k that I have been working on for 10 some years. some day I hope to finish.;)

Having Been a Pog Marine (mos3311, Field Baker) I have been around my share of Female Marines. Most of them are on the Support bases. I was with the 3rd FSSG and the 3rd LAAM Battalion back in the early 80s. There were a few that went with us to the field when we went, and we had some problems with umm opposite sex encounters in the field. When I was at Cherry Point Marine Airbase there were quite a few WMs. All in all none of them would of been in a combat situation unless we had been in a situation to have been over run.

[simonmark6]

Actually, Law, there's capital letters, sound punctuation, including in sentence, and an excellent use of subordination and co-ordination, all in all, I'd give it a thumbs up. :)

Mark (resident grammar nazi)

[Raellus]

Thanks for the info, Law and Kalkwarf. I won't be adding too many female NPCs to my battalion (maybe 2 at the most).

My reasoning- and Fuse seems to agree- is that a lot of the women in support units will have been transitioned to combat units by 2000. In my T2KU, the Marines have absorbed a lot of ex-Navy personnel to meet it's manpower needs. I'm assuming that some of those ex-Navy folks would also be women. It seems like, of all the U.S. armed forces, the Navy is particularly woman-heavy. That would probably boost the number of women in Marine support units, at least.

[pmulcahy11b]

If that's the reason, then I can't see why a manpower starved organization wouldn't opt to allow anyone in who can pass the training (any MOS).

And that's the trick, finding a female who can cut the mustard in combat arms. But they are out there -- I've worked with female soldiers I think could become good infantrymen (and two who actually wanted it and wished regs were different -- and one who wished she could become a Special Forces medic and could probably have physically and mentally managed it). I don't think the training or standards should be watered down one bit for the females to get those crossed rifles (or whatever). But those women are out there in our military, right now, being underutilized.

And BTW, I lost count of the men I met through my career who had no business being in Infantry.

[Fusilier]

I don't think the training or standards should be watered down one bit for the females to get those crossed rifles (or whatever). But those women are out there in our military, right now, being underutilized.

And BTW, I lost count of the men I met through my career who had no business being in Infantry.

Agree on all points.

IMO experience I haven't seen any watering down of training to accommodate for someone who has different genitalia - which is good and the right thing.

[Raellus]

I wonder how the Corps would train all of those ex-Navy replacements from '98 onwards. For the ETO, it would have to happen somewhere in Europe- probably Germany somewhere near the Baltic. It wouldn't be too hard to set up Marine Boot Camp overseas would it? Would the training become a little watered down, do you think?

[Fusilier]

Would the training become a little watered down, do you think?

Probably IMO. Live fire exercises and range shoots using a lot less ammo, skipping out on a lot of the non-combat stuff, shorter field exercises, etc.

I don't think it would be watered down in regards to altering the standards between sexes though. Both would be the same.

[LAW0306]

They would set up Rear areas were MCT could be taught to all new joins. MCT is 18 to 32 day depending when you went. I went Oct 92 and it sucked. we went on longer and faster road marches there than infantry school. had larger pack and crew served weapons at infantry school though.

[weswood]

I don't know how it is currently, but in the mid to late 80's the WMs (Woman Marines) didn't have the same basic training or phitness tests as male Marines.

[Brother in Arms]

The reason I ask this is:

I am trying to make a Strong female character and I am trying to work out her military career. I wanted to have her Join the USMC in 1993 and go to the Balkans but as a non combat MOS.

Her Next step is to complete her 4 years in the service. So she would get out in 1997 then have to work as a female bouncer in the L.A. club scene from 1997- 1999 or 2000 then either she re-enlists in the Corps or she gets drafted and sent to yugoslavia as a replacement. (particulary because she has prior military service)

I am hoping her second time in she is Infantry though....Infact I really want her to be a Machine gunner but I don't want that to be her official position in the sqaud just a position she assumes. I plan to have her end up in a mixed branch of services unit. Mostly army but maybe even a civillian or two.

Anyway what are your thoughts especially about Yugoslavia.

[LAW0306]

How could she be in the club sceen in 97 LA is a fire bomb. But I will help and give you a sweet character.

FIRST TERM MOS 0231 Intel Specialist
88 June-september "Boot camp" Parris Island S.C
88 october "MCT" Camp Gieger N.C
88 November-Jan 89 "Entry Course, Navy Marine Corps Intelligence Training Center (NMITC), Dam Neck, VA"
89 Feb-June 92 "2nd Intel Battalion 2nd SIRG" Camp Lejeune NC

Schools attended First Term "PFC-CPL"
SERE Bangor Maine 1989
Corporals Course 1990
Range coach 1990
LINE Instructor 1991
Jump school 1992

Deployments
1989 Just Cause "HQ Company Task Force Semper FI"
1990 November-March 1991 "2nd Intel Battalion Desert Shield/Desert Storm"
1991 November-April 1992 "26th MEU HQ Group" Bosnia

Second Term MOS 0211 Counter Intel "CPL-SGT"
July-September 1992-MAGTF CI/HUMINT Course, Navy Marine Corps Intelligence Training Center (NMITC), Dam Neck, VA
September 1992-September 1993 DLI Monteray California "Russian"
September 1993-July 1996 2nd Intel Battalion II MEF HQ Group

Schools attended 2nd term
Advanced SERE Bangor Maine 1994
Sergeants Course 1994
Primary Marksmanship Instructor 1995
Foreign Weapons Instructor 1995
Close Combat Instructor 1996
High risk Personel Course 1996

Deployments
1994 26th "MEU HQ Group" Bosnia , Restore Hope
1995/96 22nd "MEU HQ Group"

Third Term
August 96-June 00 T2K 2nd Intel Battalion II MEF HQ Group "Europe"

[Targan]

How could she be in the club sceen in 97 LA is a fire bomb.

Brother in Arms might be creating a character for Nate's campaign. Different timeline to regular T2K.

[natehale1971]

Or he's building a character for a T2013 game.

the work i've been doing on extending the T2k V1 timeline to the start of the Sino-Soviet war to 2000 is going pretty good... been doing research on the Soviet Space Program and they had some interesting stuff on their drawing boards. Especially weapons that they hoped would counter SDI. The only thing that would have really worked on that one, is the fictional James Bond disposble GoldenEye EMP sat weapon system.

[waiting4something]

They would set up Rear areas were MCT could be taught to all new joins. MCT is 18 to 32 day depending when you went. I went Oct 92 and it sucked. we went on longer and faster road marches there than infantry school. had larger pack and crew served weapons at infantry school though.

When I was in, MCT was no longer offered to infantry bound marines. Marines with 0300 mos's went straight to SOI. In SOI we never got trained on crew served weapons unless your mos required it. I never fired a M2HB or MK 19 my whole time in. LAV crewmen and weapons Marines stayed a few more weeks at SOI for their specialty training after passing the SOI course. Not sure how the humps of the two schools compared as I never went to MCT. I just remember everyone in SOI walking around like old men afterwards with sore and torn up feet.

[LAW0306]

Thats because I went to MCT when you were in Middle school.

[pmulcahy11b]

Thats because I went to MCT when you were in Middle school.

Yeah, I agree, it sounds sorta like negligence -- we got more training in Army Infantry OSUT than it sounds like the Marines are getting now in SOI.

[Brother in Arms]

Hey guys

sorry for the timeline being off. I don't have access to any t2k books whatsoever. And since its been at over 10 years since I played I can't remember what happened when.

I really Appreciate LAWs imput!!!

The character is based loosely on an actual woman, so I was hoping to keep the bouncer part in there. The Time frame on tht really doesn't matter as long as its some time during the 1990's.

Also it's cool that you mentioned SERE school in Bangor. I have been there as well as to the Navy SERE school at Redington pond Maine as a civilian.

I'm really not sure what game I am making her for she might end up as part of a story because I have no actual way to use her in a game.

Brother in Arms

[waiting4something]

Yeah, I agree, it sounds sorta like negligence -- we got more training in Army Infantry OSUT than it sounds like the Marines are getting now in SOI.

I wouldn't say that is was negligence as far as infantry Marines skipping MCT, as much as for us not getting hands on with crew served weapons was. MCT is pointless, if your whole term spent in the fleet is going to be in infantry. I think when I was in the military in general was on tight budget, the Marines are always on a tight budget anyway. Infantry will always be the first area that gets cheated when it comes to funding. Now days the military gets more funds so training might be better. We used to have to borrow the MOUT town at Camp Pendleton, today 29 Palms has their own. Things have most likely improved. More money means more bullets and less saying the phase "bang".

[Rainbow Six]

Quick question....can anyone tell me whether female Marines would have been eligible to serve as Marine Security Guards at US Embassies in a T2K timeline?

Thanks

[Legbreaker]

Given both men and women are eligible for all jobs/careers in T2K, there is no reason why not. RL may be different, but this is a game and we can do whatever we like with it.

Personally I feel embassy guards are more likely to be female than male in T2K given that men are needed on the front lines in true combat positions.

[Rainbow Six]

RL may be different, but this is a game and we can do whatever we like with it.

Very true. To each their own - personally, wherever possible I like to ground my T2K work in reality as much as I can.

Therefore let me rephrase my question...

Can anyone confirm 100% whether or not female Marines were eligible to serve as Marine Security Guards in real life at US Embassies overseas during the period 1995 - 1997?

Thanks

[Graebarde]

And that's the trick, finding a female who can cut the mustard in combat arms. But they are out there -- I've worked with female soldiers I think could become good infantrymen (and two who actually wanted it and wished regs were different -- and one who wished she could become a Special Forces medic and could probably have physically and mentally managed it). I don't think the training or standards should be watered down one bit for the females to get those crossed rifles (or whatever). But those women are out there in our military, right now, being underutilized.

And BTW, I lost count of the men I met through my career who had no business being in Infantry.

Hell it's easy, they do it all the time... double standards for the crack troop, or lower the standards for all so they can make the cut... yeah I'm old and crass, but I served with women in the TC and MP.. MP are as close to combat as any woman in the army intentionally gets. They are light infantry without heavy weapons support.. There are a lot of good female soldiers that probably can do as well as the average male counterpart in many aspects, but it does come down to upper body strength.. can she hump 100 pounds day after day.. most can't... hell most guys have more than a bit of difficulty with it.. VERY few females have made the groups I was in, or games I've run. But there are always exceptions.. the idea of female SEAL, Ranger, or any special ops is generally true fiction. Yes some is chauvanism as Paul said, but most is the ability to function in the field for extended periods, which is also another draw back to females in the field...

nuff soap box...
FB

[pmulcahy11b]

Can anyone confirm 100% whether or not female Marines were eligible to serve as Marine Security Guards in real life at US Embassies overseas during the period 1995 - 1997?

Thanks

Law, I imagine you'd be able to answer this one...