US Army to replace the M-9 [Archive]

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dragoon500ly

08-28-2011, 12:06 PM

Well, the ole Green Machine has decided that after 25 years that the Beretta M-9 9mm is on the way out of the door.

The Army has not yet released the new selection process, but what is known is that they are going to go with an off-the-shelf commercial product. Here is the list of known contenders:

Beretta 92A1 in 9mm
Beretta 96A1 in .40cal
Beretta Px4 in .45cal
Glock 17 in 9mm
Glock 22 in .40cal
Glock 37 in .45cal
H&K P2000 in either 9mm or .40cal
S&W M&P in 9mm
S&W M&P in .40cal
S&W M&P in .45cal
SIG-Saur P226 in 9mm
SIG-Sauer P229 in 9mm

Sadly, the only entry available from Colt is a single-action design and the Army is wanting double-action only.

Panther Al

08-28-2011, 12:16 PM

waiting4something

08-28-2011, 12:56 PM

Heh, Fancy that: the SiG226 is in the running. *again* That is where I would place my money, the S&W might be a good bet as well as it is a US company, but since SiG's are made in the US as well....

I don't see Beretta winning again, not because of design issues but more because of the bad name it has with the guys on the ground. Couple that with the 226 being found in .40, and in the 220, .45, well... as I said, thats where I would place my money.

Yeah, I could see one of those two winning. I think the M&P has a better chance with it costing less and it having a clean start. The M&P also is becoming the new king with law enforcement and is building a solid image. The 226 went against and lost to the Beretta once before, that wouldn't look good for the military to adopt something that they passed on in the 1980's. I liked the Beretta, but the majority doesn't. I'm surprised it has lasted this long.

ArmySGT.

08-28-2011, 01:44 PM

The Sig P226 was already adopted in the compact form as the M11 years ago. For CID Agents and others in plain clothes.

Since it exists in inventory and the manuals are already made. Plus the spare parts are in the system with NSN numbers.

I am putting my money down on the Sig for the win.

Just wish they would go back to .45 ACP

When your down to a sidearm, you need things dead right now.

Panther Al

08-28-2011, 03:03 PM

Yeah, I could see one of those two winning. I think the M&P has a better chance with it costing less and it having a clean start. The M&P also is becoming the new king with law enforcement and is building a solid image. The 226 went against and lost to the Beretta once before, that wouldn't look good for the military to adopt something that they passed on in the 1980's. I liked the Beretta, but the majority doesn't. I'm surprised it has lasted this long.

Actually the SiG won the pistol part of the bidding with gusto: the reason the Beretta won out in the end was that Beretta was willing to eat a lot of the support and parts cost. The process of competing for the contract made the 226: everyone saw that it was the better pistol and before SiG knew it they couldn't build them fast enough. It also helps that SiG has been aggressive in updating the design: the 226 of today isn't the one of the late 80's.

HorseSoldier

08-28-2011, 03:10 PM

They already pissed away millions in taxpayer money when they decided to piggyback SOCOM's new pistol program less than a decade ago and then opted to just kill it instead. Will be under-amazed at how they fuck this one up too.

And how is Colt disqualified as SAO when Glock and the M&P are options?

HorseSoldier

08-28-2011, 03:17 PM

And as a final rant -- double action requirements are fueled by cowards who run the big picture and piss themselves that Joe might have an accident when they fail to train him. This is 2011 -- fighting pistols, be they Glocks or 1911s or whatever else have one trigger pull weight. Paperweights for fobbits to look cool with in antique leather shoulder holsters can do whatever -- hell, make then black powder single shots so Maj "Got an easier degree at a state school than most of my enlisted troops" can only AD once. But for guys at the sharp end -- one set trigger weight, no external safety, and train them to use it.

LAW0306

08-28-2011, 03:23 PM

dragoon500ly

08-28-2011, 06:06 PM

From an ex-tanker viewpoint, I always regarded a pistol as pretty useless in just about any combat situation. Still did my qualifications and I enjoy shooting a pistol, but when facing infantry, I much prefer a M-240G, a M-16A2, a M-4 carbine or even one of the PDWs that are now available. The only advantage that the old M-3 Grease Gun had was being able to dump (slowly!) 30 rounds of .45 in the general direction of the opfor....and while they were laughing themselves silly, I would have time to attack in a different direction!

Unless they are crawling up the front slope, then my fav would be a Remi 1100 loaded with buckshot.

Brother in Arms

08-28-2011, 06:50 PM

The Navy did adopt the SIG P226 but im not sure if only for use with the Seal teams.

I have never liked the beretta M92 in fact I actually prefer the Walther P-38 or P-1 over it!

That being said I have carried a Glock 19 for years and I greatly enjoy it. While 9mm may not be the answer I don't feel underquipped with it.

I have actuallt fired most of the firearms listed and they are all decent pistols. That being said I don't berretta has a chance again.

More likely then not nothing will come of this new pistol trial.

BIA

HorseSoldier

08-28-2011, 09:49 PM

I see people are reading the army and Marine times. I was just back east at a meeting for people of my ilk and the Marine Corps has no intrest in this due to us having no money to spend. We have taken the pistol away at many levels here in the Marines and dont plan to return it.

Army basis of issue for pistols is expanding dramatically since 2001 -- the whole "badge of rank" pile of crap has long been a zombie in need of a head shot, but there's a whole bunch of situations where having a pistol (with night sights and a light on it) is needful when doing CQB, cordon and searches, whatever. Ultimately even if every joe doesn't need one as a secondary in case his primary goes down, a smartly configured MTOE is going to have some pistols organic at the squad level, maybe even fire team level. Not as bling of Zeros or secondary weapons for crew served guys but as something that can be issued out to Pvt Snuffy if/when he gets to venture into the crawl space above or below the suspected bad guy residence to see if they really have that stack of mortar rounds someone dimed them out on, etc.

We are looking to improve are rifle and see that as a way to get more bang for the buck.We wasted alot of money in the early 2000's and are trying not to do it now.

(Cough . . . M16A4 . . . cough cough)

Someday, with enough pain killers or improperly identified "edible" mushrooms in my system I'll figure out how the service that moron'ed the M16A2 and A4 into existence was the same guys who made the ACOG standard for service weapons -- literally like the same people produced refrigerator door finger paint art that would embarrass a learning disabled five year old and then turned around and painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

The pistol is at my view a very specialist weapon and is not at this point need for mass issue. Now the army is the senior agency for small arms and could force it on us but i dont think they will after our buy in on the M27. Our Marsoc and Recon guys are currently getting a new weapon to replace the Meusoc 1911.We just cant make enough so they are looking for an open purchace .45.

Anyone who is expected by mission to do CQB should be issued a pistol and properly trained to use it -- as in any schmuck who so-so'ed the ASVAB into an infantry slot. You can arms room concept it to where they're not issued out as heavily when operations aren't urban intensive, but not giving soldiers or marines a functional secondary (and the ability to use it) when gunfighting at spitting range is simply admitting to being happy to see an extra few of them coming home in boxes to save a buck or two.

LAW0306

08-29-2011, 03:44 AM

LAW0306

08-29-2011, 03:50 AM

SDO

http://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product3.php?pid=TA11SDO-CP

MGDO

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mcnpd/4437331410/

perardua

08-29-2011, 07:12 AM

The British forces relatively recently adopted the Sig P226 for use in Afghanistan, and started issuing them to what seemed like every man and his dog. Previous British thought towards pistols is that they were only for people who had no need for a proper weapon, or for sneaky beaky types, so they used to be a relatively rare sight. My squadron, for example, used to hold a grand total of eight Browning 9mm's for 164 men. On deployment, we ended up with 172 Sigs, and the option to carry one if we wanted it.

For the first couple of weeks, everyone carried their assigned pistol because it made them feel cool. Once that had worn off, we all realised that we were carrying an extra weapon system that had too short a range, not enough stopping power or accuracy, that we hadn't fired as much as the rifle or LMG that served as our personal weapon, and that could be replaced, for the same weight, by more ammo for our personal weapon. As a result, they all went back in the armoury save for the pistols belonging to the drivers (who needed a weapon that was easier to get at when mounted than their rifle).

In FIBUA the L85A2 is, to my mind, more effective than a pistol - it is highly reliable, more accurate, has a greater magazine capacity, is fitted with a laser and torch module, can fire automatic if the situation requires it, and can be fitted with a bayonet, which is an excellent weapon to have if you come round a corner to find yourself face-to-face with someone trying to kill you and your rifle goes click - a quick thrust and twist might save your life rather than dicking around trying to draw a pistol.

As an aside, ACOGs/SUSATs/whatever other sighting system you feel like are, to my mind, pretty obligatory on the infantry rifle of the 21st century. Aside from the increase in accuracy, it gives your section tons more situational awareness even outside of shooting situations.

Webstral

08-29-2011, 03:49 PM

Law, why are you yelling so much? We can hear you just fine. The guys who respect you are going to read your feedback without the implied volume. The guys who don't respect you aren't going to listen anyway.

There's a lot for us to learn from the USMC about a lot of things besides CRM. There's a rationale for training soldiers to shoot out to 300m and no further, but I've never bought into it. The Army wastes huge amounts of money on all kinds of ridiculous garbage--money that could be spent on the range.

Of course, the USMC has a different center of mass than the Army. The Corps is a fraction of the Army's size and enjoys a superior reputation. I don't know when the last time the Corps failed to meet its recruiting goals was, but if you told me it hasn't happened since the 70's I'd believe you. This sort of thing has a real impact on the quality of the troops. Since initial entry training is aimed at the bottom half of the recruitment pool, the superior motivation of the Marine recruits vis-a-vis Army Basic troops has a huge impact on the design and quality of the training. (This is not to say that the upper half of the recruits aren't challenged.)

All this said, the Army could stand to tighten its group when it comes to training soldiers on their individual weapons. The cost of small arms ammunition pales compared to the cost of the dead and wounded. The infantry should be on the range once a week; everybody else should be on the range once per month. As I've said many times, the Army could learn a lot from the USMC.

This is one of the reasons why in Thunder Empire Basic at Fort Huachuca is designed and run by the Marines who happened to be on-post at the TDM and who survived the fighting at Yuma to join with Huachuca. Although it tweaks some of the Army drill sergeants and former drill sergeants who want to do things their way, Thomason recognizes that a force with a great numerical inferiority has to have superior troops. Superior troops means superior privates. (As distinct from superior leadership) Given some of the wide-open spaces of Arizona, training riflemen to engage targets at 500m with an M16 is not unreasonable. Also, Thomason recognizes that the USMC has a superior method for instilling esprit de corps, which is another thing the troops at Huachuca are going to need when fighting potentially much larger Mexican forces.

Regardless of what labels one wants to apply, a firefight in a small room in Baghdad seems like pretty close quarters battle to me. I frankly don't give a damn what label a manual writer wants to apply, though I recognize that for the purposes of providing definitions and planning doctrine and training such labels do need to be applied.

HorseSoldier

08-29-2011, 08:05 PM

MY MOS brought in the M16A4 and it's better than what you guys have on every level ( IE you dont train past 300 meters in Marksmanship and we do 500m for everone). If you want data just come and ask I'm the Officer in Charge of range control at Marine Corps Base Hawaii!!!. Also the RCO or ACOG is better that anything you have a red dot M68 is crap. our sight can do so many thing's and so Many sights have spawned off it IE (SDO,MDO). CQB is done at our CQB school (Security Force Reg ) something the army does not have......MOUT on the other hand is what you are talking about is done with a Rifle/Carbine my last choice would be a pistol (effective use of a fmj no expanding 115 grain bullet for terminal ballistics vise a SOST)

A) Just to clarify where I'm coming from when I hurt your feelings, I have 18 years in service, four and half of them as a support guy in an SF unit where I spent all that time directly assigned out to an ODA. Whatever you think I was trained to do under your understanding of army doctrine and a couple bucks might be barely adequate to get you a beverage at Starbucks.

B) Reading comprehension in the USMC must be fairly substandard if even the zeros can't grasp that my previous post praised the ACOG. I had an issued TA01 when the RCO was still a distant glimmer in an optimistic Gunner's eye, and mass issue of the TA31 is about the only thing the USMC has done right about small arms in a decade or more.

C) Sorry -- M16A4 is a wrong answer for every question the gunfighter asks about how to score okay on USMC Table 1 and do D&C -- precisely the two real reasons why the USMC picked it over the M4. Every marine enlisted guy I dealt with while issued an M4A1 was universally critical of the M16A4 for actual combat, said the M4 wouldn't be as good for Table 1, and would have traded their mother for an M4 and to be rid of their musket.

D) Whatever you think soldiers do or don't get in terms of weapons training, I personally was trained to shoot out to 600 with my issue M4, ACOG, and decent ammo (Mk 262) and make consistent hits. Our flawed qual course involves shooting to 300 meters, your fetishistic antique festival that passes for a basic qual course involves shooting to 500. Yippy skippy. Since no one has produced any data I've ever seen that actually shows marines making more hits under combat conditions I'm underwhelmed by the allegations of superiority.

and I'm a grad of HRP/Gunslinger school and a few other Marine corps schools for actions with a pistol. Please before you knock another service be in for more than 4 years and have some MOS street creed to back it up. Our M27 smokes anything you have in General Service and it might be our new Service rifle if we can get the cash for it.

The M27 is . . . like the M16A2/A4 a bunch of wrong answers for what it is supposed to do. As a base of fire weapon/automatic rifle it's going to get troops killed. Period. But it's sexy as hell. If you're an HK fanboi or live in the shadow of CAG and SEAL Team 6.

Yes that means every Marine would have a piston Carbine/Rifle that has a Heavy floated barrel that does sub MOA work....nothing the army has on the Table for there SF can beat that...How do I know welllllll I work with them.... I had a ODA team on my range last week and this week they will be back and they are blown away with what our basic guys do and what my scout sniper school does out here.

Having been in that community and seen the USMC by comparison, I have to credit the ODA you worked with for their politeness. Nobody I was ever around was overly impressed with what the USMC brought to the gunfighting table. Not bad, but notably good.

As for the M27 -- wow, so they've fixed the accuracy issue HK416s had? When the M27 was still making people scratch their heads at its T&E victories over better actual base of fire weapons, the HK416s some of our ODAs were actually running operations with were 4-5 MOA weapons (charitably) with green tip, and still 2.5-ish with Mk 262.

Maybe the 27s have fixed the crap accuracy issue, but the fact that the USMC bought a weapon with a mag well that won't accept PMags so guys can better use a Starsky & Hutch SWAT team front-of-magwell grip . . . well it demonstrates that decision makers who don't even know the right questions certainly won't get the right answers, will they? Garbage in-garbage out, as the computer types say.

(Most of our guys that got 416s issued at the team level? Ditched them and either went back to stock M4A1s or M4s with shorter direct gas uppers. One of the good parts of SF is that the works/doesn't work decision cycle happens at a much lower level, for the most part, efforts to ditch the M9 notwithstanding. Once the chicks dig it factor wore off, the 416 mostly got tossed. Lance Corporal Schmuckatelly in a line infantry unit in the USMC won't have the benefit of being able to do the same thing until someone with a lot of stars on their shoulders owns up to their mistake, which takes a whole lot longer -- if it ever happens at all.)

The amount of times a primary weapon has failed a Marine in the Global war on terror is so low we cant even find numbers for it in our Marine Corps lessons learned branch. we clean our weapons!!! we teach this in boot camp check any movie , we dont use the M4 as a machine gun and burn up the barrels and make the chamber so hot rounds cook off. I have read after actions of this from the army MANY!!!!. so a back up is for tier one operators who have a mission to use one. Ie guys trained in CQB......witch take a long time and a ton of ammo.

It's awesome you (over) clean your weapons, since the primary failure point in the M16/M4 weapon system is bad mags. I kept my M4 running for a good long time with no more cleaning than wiping the BCG down with an oiled gym sock and soaking the bolt with oil. And using good mags. Big Boy Rules and all that -- my gun always went bang when require to, and I didn't have under-employed and underqualified NCOs trying to justify their existence to senior officers but working above their level of competence.

From the perspective of my training and experience absolutely nothing demonstrates systemic leadership failure like watching Joes try to scrub the parkerizing off parts of their weapons to satisfy officers and NCOs who know pitifully less than they should about absolute basics and fundamentals.

As for not using the M4 as a machinegun -- no, as an institution you've made a collective decision to deprive the infantrymen of effective base of fire and suppressive weapons. You've made the decision to replace a belt felt weapon with one that runs on 30 round magazines, firing the same cartridge as the standard service rifle. Congratulations -- 70 years late, but you're reinvented the Bren Gun or BAR. And actually that's charitable, since at least the Bren offered a fire power differential next to bolt guns that the M27 simply doesn't provide. (And, as a side note, both those weapons came up woefully short against belt fed squad machine guns circa 1944 -- maybe the USMC never learned this lesson since they were never on the wrong end of an MG34 or 42, but since I know for a fact marines have been on the wrong end of PKMs I'd think if the people running the show were half as smart as they think they are they'd have connected the dots.)

Oh but you'll suppress via precision fire. :rolleyes: Holy Jesus, where do I get the quality of narcotics issued to me that the decision makers who hit on that plan were smoking, shooting, and/or snorting? Was there like a gunnery sergeant convention where they were crushing Oxycontin, cooking it in a spoon, and injecting it directly into their eyeballs as they contemplated weapons procurement I never heard about?

Your not doing CQB by definition in Iraq or Afghanistan you are doing MOUT. Look it up in your FM 90-10,FM 90-10-1 , FM 3-06 FM 3-21.8,FM 7-8, FM 7-85, FM7-92

Doctrinally, you don't know what I was trained or tasked to do, so before you split hairs maybe you should also see if you can peruse a syllabus for SFAUC, SFBCC, and the like.

ArmySGT.

08-29-2011, 08:14 PM

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Makes%20me%20laugh/Awesome/Iloldmask.jpg

ArmySGT.

08-29-2011, 08:16 PM

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Makes%20me%20laugh/Insults/goonwithyourdrama.jpg

Cpl. Kalkwarf

08-29-2011, 09:55 PM

Targan

08-29-2011, 09:58 PM

Hmm why not the CZ97 or an EAA Witness in 45? 10 rd .45. Then again the Glock in 45.

Hmm if the adopted a new pistol in 10mm then maybe the price of ammo would drop as it would be made in larger quantities.

Didn't the FBI go with 10mm for a couple of years but dropped it because female agents couldn't handle the recoil? I'm going on dim, distant memory here and may have over-simplified the sitiuation.

Schone23666

08-29-2011, 10:16 PM

Didn't the FBI go with 10mm for a couple of years but dropped it because female agents couldn't handle the recoil? I'm going on dim, distant memory here and may have over-simplified the sitiuation.

Well, not necessarily. From what I've read (and please remember this may not be 100 percent accurate, just like everything else I say or read :D ) the recoil of the 10mm round was a problem for a lot of agents, not just females that were not used to the power of this particular round. The 10mm should not be confused in any way with the .45 ACP, it is a very hot round that places a lot of stress on the pistol. This was another factor: the 10mm had just come out around this time and it was found that some pistols built for it were wearing out/breaking prematurely as they (for the time) hadn't been quite sufficiently built to handle the high stress of the propellant packed into the cartridge along with the larger caliber. But again, there may be more to the issue.

In any case, experiments with the 10mm led to the development of the .40 S&W. Yes, I know macho types like to call it "short and wimpy" but if many law enforcement types and some military are actually using the round without too many complaints, then it must be doing something right. :p

Cpl. Kalkwarf

08-29-2011, 11:02 PM

If we did not have to go with the stupid FMJ for military bullets the 9mm would be OK. Heck I like my 9s.

Schone23666

08-29-2011, 11:09 PM

If we did not have to go with the stupid FMJ for military bullets the 9mm would be OK. Heck I like my 9s.

True, but then we wouldn't want to upset the fellows who read and write the Geneva Conventions to the letter... :p

fisty

08-29-2011, 11:15 PM

for my 2c worth i say we go back with the 1911 hell i know a lot of guys carry them in country now.

Webstral

08-29-2011, 11:23 PM

(Most of our guys that got 416s issued at the team level? Ditched them and either went back to stock M4A1s or M4s with shorter direct gas uppers. One of the good parts of SF is that the works/doesn't work decision cycle happens at a much lower level, for the most part, efforts to ditch the M9 notwithstanding. Once the chicks dig it factor wore off, the 416 mostly got tossed. Lance Corporal Schmuckatelly in a line infantry unit in the USMC won't have the benefit of being able to do the same thing until someone with a lot of stars on their shoulders owns up to their mistake, which takes a whole lot longer -- if it ever happens at all.)

Sadly, this is the Army I know (with Specialist Schmuckatelly standing in for his lance corporal counterpart).

Comparisons between the USMC and the Army often break down under analysis. The Army dwarfs the USMC and has all the attendant problems. The average Army brigade is not the same fighting force as the average Marine regiment. (I'd be happy to enterain arguments regarding the 82nd Airborne, though.) By the same token, the average Marine regiment isn't the same fighting force as the 75th Rangers or an SF group. I'm not talking firepower or equipment. I'm talking about the troops themselves. The more you restrict the pool of folks accepted, the more remarkable the end product. There's a reason the SO communities aren't hundreds of thousands strong.

For what it's worth, the former Marines in my Guard unit outshot the center of mass of my unit. The top ten percent of shooters weren't all former Marines or even predominantly Marines. However, on a standard Army qual range at Bliss, the unit as a whole shot 28 for 40. The former Marines shot 30 for 40. The XO compiled these statistics to settle an argument of the type Law and Horse are having right now. One should assign whatever significance one wants to the difference. It's worth bearing in mind that none of the targets were more than 300m from the firing positions. Coincidentally, I had a bad day on the range and fired 30 for 40 (I'm pretty reliable against targets 250 meters and closer). Were I forced to engage targets at ranges greater than 300m, I'd hit fewer than half of them. Sad but true. I can't speculate on how things would have turned out differently on a range with targets out to 500m, although you can be certain that the former Marines in my unit did.

I think there is a value to having confidence in one's ability to hit targets at long range. Personally, I'd love to have that confidence. On the other hand, maybe we should read something into the fact that the Germans, who entered WW2 with a bolt action rifle and superior marksmanship, switched to a rifle oriented towards shorter ranges. Granted, the loss of scads of well-trained manpower and its replacement by under-trained newbies would have rewarded a switch away from (comparatively) long-range riflery and to assault riflery. Nonetheless, crew served weapons exist to engage targets beyond 300m. Again, though, I've only served in the line dog world. I can't speak to how the Rangers, SF, or anyone like that does their business other than to say that those guys are far superior to me.

LAW0306

08-30-2011, 01:11 AM

Legbreaker

08-30-2011, 01:23 AM

A) Just to clarify where I'm coming from when I hurt your feelings, I have 18 years in service, four and half of them as a support guy in an SF unit where I spent all that time directly assigned out to an ODA.

Four years in an SF unit is fairly impressive I'd have to say. They don't let just anybody in, and everyone's subject to being shown the door at any time if they don't perform unlike in a conventional army or marine unit where it's possible to kick it into neutral and coast along.
My guess is you'd have to really know your shit to last so long...

Cpl. Kalkwarf

08-30-2011, 05:42 AM

Didn't the FBI go with 10mm for a couple of years but dropped it because female agents couldn't handle the recoil? I'm going on dim, distant memory here and may have over-simplified the sitiuation.

Yeah bunch of wimps. I'm 50+ years old and by no means a strong or even beefy guy and I don't find the 10mm that bad at all. Then again I don't find the 44 mag that bad either. I can shoot my .375 H&H with little problem. Though I don't recommend firing it from the prone or bench. (let the body absorb the recoil, best in standing or kneeling, and do not lean into it). The closest thing to it would be shooting a 12ga. with 3" magnum slug loads.

I wonder if the ones that were shooting the 10mm were just a bit shy of anything that recoils during that testing.

Yup were some females like that but some of the males too. My guess is they just blamed the gals cause they are just too weak in the wrist. Or spend too much time on a keyboard.:P

Cpl. Kalkwarf

08-30-2011, 05:53 AM

Since were on a forum. I guess I lose because I will never be able to sway you to my side. you will type and be a key board commando and I will goto work tommorow and do it for real. Your tougher... your cock is bigger and your wife is better looking. but if you were ever to see me and tell me i did not care (IE save money and put people in a grave) ... well we would see what way the wind blows. people on this forum have see me real world and know who I'm and where I live. Hell Chico/Jason wiser has trained with my guys at Camp. your facts are wrong plan and simple. I work with big kids at a higher level. I'm not a Gunny I'm a Gunner 0306 look it up. I just returned from the annual Gunners meeting in quantico were we did big kid stuff. sorry you win I wont talk any more.

Damn, I enjoy yer Experiences, and am glad to keep hearing about them. If it puts some one else panties in a bind!?! To hell with them.

Its been a while since I have been in the Corps. I have a young nephew that spent his time in the FAST over in the sand box (Iraq) for two tours. He thought the M16a4 and the M249 SAW were fine weapons. And that was from personal experience of using the M16a4 in Urban fighting and House clearing.

waiting4something

08-30-2011, 03:32 PM

The M27 is a good concept. It's only real short comings is its made by HK and it small ammo capacity. Magazine fed weapons are better for light infantry units. When the weapon is empty you jam another magazine in and your back in the fight. Belt fed weapons are slow on the reload and difficult to reload on the move. The belts also can get caught on shit from time to time and break off on you. I hated the M249. We had the full sized motherfucker. It was to damn heavy and you had a assisant gunner like it was a machinegun. Oh yeah, but it is a machinegun and it said so right on the receiver. I'm glad the Marines are looking for a automatic rifle for the automatic rifleman role. But, I just think they need to have a magazine drum that is not as bulky or difficult as those dual beta cmags.

Webstral

08-30-2011, 06:07 PM

... and your wife is better looking.

My wife is pretty scorching, if I do say so myself. Unfortunately, there's as much lament as boast in my observation. We have two young children at home, the youngest of whom is still nursing. Thanks to the nursing, the pregnancy weight came off in six weeks. Thanks to the demands of the young children, the ratio of moments when I think "Wow, I want some of that!" to moments when I actually get some of that has become about as favorable as the rounds-fired-to-kills ratio of US troops in Vietnam. These are the times when a gorgeous wife is not a blessing.

Legbreaker

08-30-2011, 06:53 PM

I hated the M249. We had the full sized motherfucker. It was to damn heavy and you had a assisant gunner like it was a machinegun. Oh yeah, but it is a machinegun and it said so right on the receiver.

He he.
I remember when the Minimi (aka M249 in US service) was introduced into service over here. I was on an enemy party for another battalion when we were still equipped with SLRs and M60's and the other unit had the F88 Steyr AUG and Minimi. Their gunners were constantly complaining about how heavy the Minimi was right up until they held an SLR.
Then we handed them an M60 and told them they had to act just like any other rifleman. There were no more complaints after that. :D

Personally I didn't have a lot of trouble with a well maintained M60. Reloading, if you were properly trained and practised, was fairly quick, and I never had an assistant worth anything more than ammo and spare barrel carrier (I was faster with the drills by my self than with their "help"). In my opinion, the key to a belt fed weapon is really ammo management - add on another 50 rounds whenever you get a few seconds rather than letting it run dry, and don't ever try to move through scrub with 100+ round belt attached and expect not to get tangled up.

Raellus

08-30-2011, 07:11 PM

I'm not a betting man but I'll wager that the SW M&P in .45 or 9mm wins. The reason I'm going with S&W is that I'm sure the senators from the states where SW makes its weapons are going to be lobbying hard to bring Federal dollars and jobs to their states. I've heard mostly good things about the M&P.

I'd go with the Glock in .45 or 9mm. It's probably the least expensive weapon on the list and Glocks are known for their simplicity, reliability, and durability. I really like my Glock 19. It's light, easy to shoot, and easy to take care of, and it cost me less than $450 brand new.

Although law enforcement has been moving away from the 9mm round, I think the U.S. military will stick with it since most NATO armies still use the 9mm P round in their sidearms and submachineguns. That said, there's a lot to be said for the old .45 and I know that at least some U.S. and NATO SOF already use pistols in this caliber.

dragoon500ly

08-30-2011, 09:35 PM

there's a lot of DOD rumors that SOCCOM is pushing for .40/.45 due to issues with the 9mm round in general.

And the smart money is betting on the H&K, for the reason that the US Border Patrol has picked it up and is going gaga over it.

My own take is that it will be either most likely be a S&W or Glock, both are getting a lot of rave reviews already. The first tests are hopefully set for spring of 2012.

We shall see!

HorseSoldier

09-02-2011, 05:38 AM

Under the initial SOCOM M9 replacement program there was a lot of speculation the an HK design was the design to beat -- USP45CT was what everyone was talking about at the time. A decided minority wanted Glocks, which CAG had been using for years. Whole thing got all kinds of messed up with Big Army joining the program with their own requirements.

When all that fell through, SOCOM went back to the drawing board though in a lower key manner, while a number of units acquired a range of Beretta alternatives through various official channels (getting alternate weapons that are not on the MTOE is not the easiest process even for secret squirrels, at least in the US system).

Circa 2008, Glock was now looking like the preferred format, with the main issue being caliber now. They must be close to a decision if Big Army is rumbling about a new pistol again . . .

waiting4something

09-05-2011, 08:18 AM

I have to admit I was surprised that the Coast Guard adopted the Sig 229 in 40 S&W. I mean out of all the services to jump the first, it was the Coast Guard and with a .40 S&W. I never thought the military would choose a .40S&W. I do realize that the U.S. Coast Guard is more law enforcement like then military, but it is still a military branch, even though most people forget about them a lot.
I still can't see the military picking the Sig 226, since it lost to the Beretta back in the day. For whatever reason it lost for, it still lost. Now if it was a differnt model number like the 229 or something that is a different story, because it never lost. No mistakes will have to be admitted to.

HorseSoldier

09-05-2011, 12:57 PM

With the USCG falling under Dept of Homeland Security, I'm not sure *not* switching to one of that department's approved 40 cal pistols was an option for them. I'm not sure how logistics are programmed through DHS, but I'm guessing if they'd wanted to retain the M9 for commonality with DOD, they'd have had to foot the bill for ammo, parts, and replacement weapons out of USCG funds versus a supported caliber/design that their parent agency buys in bulk. (And sorting out some sort of arrangement where USCG would get pistol related stuff supported by DOD? This is the US .gov we're talking about -- at a minimum would probably take 2000+ manhours of work by lawyers to define the rules for this exception to the rules, and then there'd still probably be routine issues with getting necessary M9 and 9mm stuff to various USCG stations in a timely manner, etc.)

LAW0306

09-05-2011, 02:40 PM

I'm not sure how logistics are programmed through DHS

I have a little insight into this as most come by my range and my past work with them.
FBI ...alone and unafraid. most carry sometype of glock. in 9mm to 40cal. ,some have been grandfathered into another design and can carry these weapons if they qual with them. most qual well and are very well trained. there swat and HRT have the option to carry 1911 .45.

DHS...about three year ago wanted to make the Sig 229 the standard gun. so you had the park police and Secret service and a bunch of cats carrying 229's but all in differnt calibers....40,357 sig. 9mm.

You all must remember that being law enforcement they can carry expanding ammo. This makes a 9mm very leathal. 147/127 +p+ grain winchester SXT or the same from speer gold dot is the industry standard.40 cal in 155/180 grain. These rounds cause great terminal balistics. We in the military are restricted to 115 grain fmj 9mm ...it will kill you but they must be well placed shots and i mean shots plural. I have alot of after actions from the war that tell this. some are scewed by the bad guys using drugs. I challenge all here to read or look up why the good ole usa invented the 1911 and the .45 round in 230 grain. to much for me to write here.

LAW0306

09-05-2011, 02:43 PM

From browning web page. all credit goes to them....

Let’s spend a few minutes exploring the rich history of the original Model 1911 .45 Automatic, and discovering how the world’s greatest handgun came to be.

Any complete history of the Model 1911 must start a decade or more before that legendary year, and half a world away in the Philippines. It was here in the tropical heat of those islands that US Soldiers and Marines found themselves locked in combat with fanatic local insurgents and the immediate need for an effective, large caliber defensive pistol became sorely evident.

In the wake of the sinking of the battleship USS Maine in Havana harbor in February of 1898, the United States went to war with Spain. Along with an invasion of Cuba, US Navy forces engaged, routed and destroyed the Spanish fleet at Manila Bay in March 1898, in one of the most lop-sided victories in naval history. US ground forces then went ashore to overthrow the Spanish colonial government and occupy the islands.

Continuing the armed resistance they had previously shown against the Spanish, the Moro tribesmen of the southern islands (reportedly fueled by a dangerous combination of religious zealotry, ardent tribalism and potent opiates) engaged the American forces in a long bout of guerrilla warfare that ultimately lasted nearly 15 years. Much of the combat was at close quarters, where the Moros’ long-bladed kris knives were used to lethal effect.

At the time US troops were armed with either .30 caliber Krag or Springfield bolt-action rifles and .38 caliber double-action revolvers. While the .30 caliber rifles proved effective in stopping the attackers, the US troop’s handguns demonstrated an unnerving lack of stopping power, resulting in numerous reports of Moro warriors absorbing multiple pistol bullets while they continued to hack away at the Americans. Obviously the US troops’ morale suffered badly in this situation.

The combat pistol situation became so acute that old stocks of Model 1873 Colt revolvers in 45 caliber, many of which dated back to the Plains Indian Wars were returned to active service, where they quickly demonstrated a much better track record of stopping an attacker with one well-placed shot.

The battlefield experience against the Moros resulted in the famous Thompson-LeGarde tests by the US Military in 1904. In these tests a variety of military cartridges of the day were tested for their penetration, ‘stopping ability’ and energy transfer, using both live and dead cattle at the target medium. While somewhat subjective by modern standards, the tests resulted in an official recommendation “…that a bullet, which will have the shock effect and stopping effect at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver, should have a caliber not less than .45."

About this time two new armament technologies were also emerging - smokeless powder and the autoloading pistol. In 1906 the US Military, under the direction of General William Crozier of the Ordinance Department, began evaluating several pistol designs along with the suitability of a new cartridge that was designated the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (or .45 ACP for short). As these military tests continued over the next several years, the Colt pistol began to emerge as the clear favorite.

The Colt pistol that was submitted for these military tests was designed by John M. Browning. Without a doubt the most innovative and visionary firearms designer of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, John M. Browning earned the lasting reputation as “The Father of Automatic Fire.” Browning’s design genius was not limited to pistols. Among his other military inventions were the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), numerous .30 caliber and .50 caliber Browning machine guns and the legendary Browning Hi Power, the first successful high-capacity autoloading pistol that soon became a worldwide standard for military sidearms.

Based on the short recoil principle of operation, the John M. Browning design for the US Military pistol trials was a magazine fed, single action semi-automatic pistol with both manual and grip safeties that demonstrated a level of durability, simplicity and reliability that no other pistol design of the era could match. In fact, during a 6,000 round test fired over two days in 1910 that was personally supervised by John M. Browning, his sample pistol became so hot that it was simply dunked in a pail of water to cool it for further firing. Browning’s sample reportedly passed the test with no malfunctions.

Since cavalry troops were going to be the primary combat users of the pistol, several specific design features, like the grip safety and lanyard ring, were mandated by the horse soldiers. (Nothing will turn a cavalry trooper into an infantryman faster than shooting his own horse by accident.) The Browning pistol design was formally adopted by the US Army on March 29, 1911, and thus became known officially as the Model 1911. The US Navy and US Marine Corps adopted the Browning-designed pistol in 1913.

The Browning-designed 1911 pistol was first tested in combat in Mexico in 1916. At that time Mexico was wracked by revolution and the most prominent of the rebel generals was Pancho Villa. During the early morning hours of March 9, 1916, Villa and his men attacked, looted and burned the small town of Columbus, New Mexico, resulting in the deaths of 18 US soldiers and civilians. Further attacks by Villa’s rebels in Texas resulted in the deaths of several more US soldiers and officials.

In response to the attacks, President Woodrow Wilson ordered General John J. “Black Jack” Pershing to lead a force of nearly 5,000 US soldiers onto Mexico to capture Villa. Many of the next generation of US military leaders got their first combat experience on this operation, including an ambitious young lieutenant by the name of George S. Patton. While the Punitive Expedition ultimately failed to capture Villa, it did provide the first major combat test of a number of new military technologies such as the airplane, wireless telegraph, motorized truck transport and the M1911 pistol.

The following year marked the entry of the United States into the Great War in Europe. American forces, again under the command of General Pershing, joined with Canadian, French and British troops to push back German forces on the Western Front. In all more than a million US troops served in this worldwide conflict.

WW I, as the Great War soon came to be known, proved a brutal face-off between new weapons and outmoded tactics. Much of the ground combat on the Western Front was conducted as trench warfare, in which small-unit raiding and close quarters combat were common tactics. The Model 1911 proved more than equal to the task, and the powerful pistol quickly became a favorite of American servicemen. During one legendary engagement Sergeant Alvin York used a Model 1911 pistol to stop an attack by six German soldiers with as many shots, in the process winning the Medal of Honor. Lieutenant Frank Luke of the US Army Air Corps was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for his excellent air combat results and his fight to the death with a .45 pistol against a German infantry onslaught after his SPAD biplane was forced down onto a muddy French battlefield. Other new weapons that emerged from the WW I conflict included tanks, fighter aircraft, rapid-firing artillery, machine guns, poison gas and submarines.

The post-war era saw subtle refinements to the basic Model 1911 design, including the addition of improved sights, an arched mainspring housing, shorter trigger, longer grip safety spur and other ergonomic improvements. Collectively these improvements were completed in 1924 and resulted in the Model 1911A1. Not long after those modifications were formalized, John M. Browning died of a heart attack at the Fabrique Nationale (FN) factory in Herstal, Belgium, on November 26, 1926.

As the United States began to emerge as a major world military power, the Model 1911 saw combat service in a number of different conflicts, including many small brushfire actions in the Caribbean, South and Central America. These interventions were considered necessary to provide political, social and economic stability to the region and were sometimes called the Banana Wars.

During this era the Model 1911 also became a favorite sidearm of law enforcement officers nationwide, first in .45 ACP and later in the fast-stepping .38 Super. Among the more notable law enforcement users of the 1911 were members of the Texas Rangers, as well as federal agents of the Border Patrol, Prohibition Service and the FBI.

December 7, 1941 brought the Japanese air attack on Pearl Harbor and US entry into WW II. The conflict represented the largest war mobilization in US history, with more than 16 million American men and women serving in the armed forces in every theater of the conflict. The Model 1911 was the standard sidearm for almost all US military forces fighting on the ground, at sea and in the air. Total military production of the Model 1911 was nearly 3 million pistols. Combined with the millions of Browning machine guns and BARs produced over the decades, it is easy to see that the guns designed by John M. Browning played a major role in defending freedom and crushing tyranny. The Model 1911 continued to serve with distinction at the side of American servicemen for most of the remainder of the 20th century including Korea, Viet Nam and other conflicts.

With the end of WW II, millions of US servicemen returned from combat service around globe, eager to enjoy a new life of peace and prosperity. With that post-war prosperity came plenty of leisure time for recreation, and the shooting sports in America literally boomed! Shooting clubs and leagues sprouted up in every city and town, at colleges, high schools, factories and local ranges.

One of the favorite shooting competition formats of the day was NRA Bullseye Pistol, which was modeled on the military pistol qualification courses as taught to millions of GIs. Bullseye pistol required expertise with a .22 rimfire pistol, a centerfire pistol and a .45 pistol, often the Model 1911. Post-war economics also helped build the popularity of the 1911, as it could be used in both the centerfire and .45 phases of competition. Plenty of Model 1911 pistols were readily available as military surplus or as battlefield trophies brought back by GIs. Pistolsmiths who had learned the gun inside and out in the military began to experiment on how best to turn the 1911 into a target range tack-driver, and their improvements often produced one ragged hole in the target. An entire cadre of suppliers like Pachmayr and Kings Gun Works were soon filling the demand for custom accurized 1911 bullseye pistols.

While formal bullseye competition ruled the roost in the post-war era, another movement was quietly taking shape – a movement that soon came to be known as Practical Shooting. For many decades prior to the 1950s much of the combat firearms training doctrine for law enforcement officers was based on a fast draw followed by unsighted or instinctive one-handed firing from the hip. While this technique may have some application at very close ranges, the hit potential quickly became marginal as distances increased.

One of the first to realize the limitations of hip shooting was a young Marine officer by the name of Jeff Cooper. He understood that in order to stop an assailant, one had to accurately and rapidly deal him a telling blow before he could complete his attack. Cooper’s WW II combat experience in the Pacific and his visionary thinking lead him to develop what became known worldwide as the Modern Technique.

Drawing upon the wisdom of some of the best pistol shooters of the day, Cooper’s method was to use a smooth one-hand draw moving to a strong two-handed hold, then make a quick eye-level sight alignment on the target and rapidly fire with accuracy. While the Modern Technique is adaptable to most handguns, the ideal instrument to exploit its full effectiveness is the .45 ACP Model 1911 – a pistol with the power, accuracy and reliability to prevail in a confrontation. Cooper codified the concept of the Modern Technique in the Latin motto Diligentia-Vis-Celeritas (D.V.C.) which translates as Accuracy-Force-Speed.

Cooper’s prolific writings and teaching on the subject, along with those of Charles Askins, Ray Chapman, Jack Weaver, Thell Reed and others helped shape the thinking of an entire generation of law enforcement and military trainers, and today it remains the basis for virtually all training doctrine for combat pistol shooting. The spread of the Modern Technique was also the major factor in the transition of American law enforcement from the revolver to the autoloading pistol during the 1980s and 1990s.

Cooper also played a major role in the creation of the International Practical Shooting Confederation in 1976 and served as its first president. IPSC created a framework for organized competition and quickly became the competition format of choice for hundreds of thousands of avid pistol shooters. Offshoots of the formalized practical shooting sports have blossomed in recent years, including Cowboy Action Shooting, IDPA, USPSA 3-Gun and many others.

An entire industry based on parts, accessories, custom gunsmithing, training centers and formal competition has grown up around the Model 1911, and today the 1911 design remains the world-wide standard for competition pistols. In fact, the emergence of the Modern Technique, practical shooting and concealed carry have resulted in a virtual rebirth of interest in the 1911 pistol design.

With the growth of practical shooting came a greater awareness of personal security and taking responsibility for one’s own safety. Rising crime rates in the 1980s and 1990s helped spark a broad national movement towards civilian concealed carry licensing. Today almost every state in the Union offers some form of civilian licensing to carry a concealed firearm, and for many of these millions of CCW licensees the choice is some form of the Model 1911, often in a compact version for easier carry and concealment.

In 1985 the US Military adopted the 9mm M9 pistol as their standard sidearm in hopes of creating greater ammunition interoperability with its NATO allies. Hundreds of thousands of servicemen and servicewomen dutifully turned in their Model 1911 pistols, and no doubt many a tear was shed in memory of the 1911’s seven decades of service.

Alas, the painful combat lessons of the past now came full circle. The marginal stopping ability of the 9mm ball cartridge is no more potent today as when it was first introduced in 1902. In light of this, the US Military has again turned to the venerable Model 1911 and the .45 ACP to arm their special operations troops. Two more Medals of Honor were awarded in 1993 to US Delta Force operators, Master Sergeant Gary Gordon and Sergeant First Class Randall Shughart, for their actions in Somalia, which were later immortalized in the book and motion picture “Black Hawk Down.” After Shughart was fatally wounded, Gordon continued his fight to the death using a 1911 to protect one of the wounded helicopter pilots.

Today, when America’s finest go into harm’s way after radical terrorists, chances are a Model 1911 is riding on their hip or MOLLE gear. After 100 years the Model 1911 design is more popular than ever, and remains the standard by which all other autoloading pistols is measured.

We think John M. Browning would like that.

LAW0306

09-05-2011, 02:45 PM

From wiki all credit goes to them

Early history and adoption

The M1911 pistol originated in the late 1890s, the result of a search for a suitable self-loading (or semi-automatic) handgun to replace the variety of revolvers then in service.[3] The United States of America was adopting new firearms at a phenomenal rate; several new handguns and two all-new service rifles (the M1892/96/98 Krag and M1895 Navy Lee), as well as a series of revolvers by Colt and Smith & Wesson for the Army and Navy were adopted just in that decade. The next decade would see a similar pace, including the adoption of several more revolvers and an intensive search for a self-loading pistol that would culminate in official adoption of the M1911 after the turn of the decade.

Hiram S. Maxim had designed a self-loading pistol in the 1880s, but was preoccupied with machine guns. Nevertheless, the application of his principle of using bullet energy to reload led to several self-loading pistols in the 1890s. The designs caught the attention of various militaries, each of which began programs to find a suitable one for their forces. In the U.S., such a program would lead to a formal test at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century.

During the end of 1899 and start of 1900, a test of self-loading pistols was conducted, which included entries from Mauser (the C96 "Broomhandle"), Mannlicher (the Steyr Mannlicher M1894), and Colt (the Colt M1900).[3]

This led to a purchase of 1,000 DWM Luger pistols, chambered in 7.65 mm Luger, a bottlenecked cartridge. During field trials these ran into some issues, especially in regard to stopping power. Other governments had also made similar complaints. Consequently, DWM produced an enlarged version of the round, the 9mm Parabellum (known in current military parlance as the 9x19mm NATO), a necked-up version of the 7.65 mm round. Fifty of these were tested as well by the U.S. Army in 1903.

General William Crozier became Chief of Ordnance of the Army in 1901.
In response to problems encountered by American units fighting Moro guerrillas during the Philippine-American War, the then-standard Colt M1892 revolver, in .38 Long Colt, was found to be unsuitable for the rigors of jungle warfare, particularly in terms of stopping power, as the Moros had very high battle morale and frequently used drugs to inhibit the sensation of pain.[4] The U.S. Army briefly reverted to using the M1873 single-action revolver in .45 Colt caliber, which had been standard during the last decades of the 19th century; the heavier bullet was found to be more effective against charging tribesmen.[5] The problems with the .38 Long Colt led to the Army shipping new single action .45 Colt revolvers to the Philippines in 1902. It also prompted the then-Chief of Ordnance, General William Crozier, to authorize further testing for a new service pistol.[5]

Following the 1904 Thompson-LaGarde pistol round effectiveness tests, Colonel John T. Thompson stated that the new pistol "should not be of less than .45 caliber" and would preferably be semi-automatic in operation.[5] This led to the 1906 trials of pistols from six firearms manufacturing companies (namely, Colt, Bergmann, Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM), Savage Arms Company, Knoble, Webley, and White-Merril).[5]

Of the six designs submitted, three were eliminated early on, leaving only the Savage, Colt, and DWM designs chambered in the new .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) cartridge.[5] These three still had issues that needed correction, but only Colt and Savage resubmitted their designs. There is some debate over the reasons for DWM's withdrawal—some say they felt there was bias and that the DWM design was being used primarily as a "whipping boy" for the Savage and Colt pistols,[6] though this does not fit well with the earlier 1900 purchase of the DWM design over the Colt and Steyr entries. In any case, a series of field tests from 1907 to 1911 were held to decide between the Savage and Colt designs.[5] Both designs were improved between each testing over their initial entries, leading up to the final test before adoption.[5]

Among the areas of success for the Colt was a test at the end of 1910 attended by its designer, John Browning. 6,000 rounds were fired from a single pistol over the course of two days. When the gun began to grow hot, it was simply immersed in water to cool it. The Colt gun passed with no reported malfunctions, while the Savage designs had 37.[5]

[edit] Service history

Comparison of government-issue M1911 and M1911A1 pistols

M15 General Officers adopted by the U.S. Army in the 1970s for issue to Generals.
Following its success in trials, the Colt pistol was formally adopted by the Army on March 29, 1911, thus gaining its designation, M1911 (Model 1911). It was adopted by the Navy and Marine Corps in 1913. Originally manufactured only by Colt, demand for the firearm in World War I saw the expansion of manufacture to the government-owned Springfield Armory.

Battlefield experience in the First World War led to some more small external changes, completed in 1924. The new version received a modified type classification, M1911A1. Changes to the original design were minor and consisted of a shorter trigger, cutouts in the frame behind the trigger, an arched mainspring housing, a longer grip safety spur (to prevent hammer bite), a wider front sight, a shorter spur on the hammer, and simplified grip checkering by eliminating the "Double Diamond" reliefs.[5] Those unfamiliar with the design are often unable to tell the difference between the two versions at a glance. No significant internal changes were made, and parts remained interchangeable between the two.

Working for the U.S. Ordnance Office, David Marshall Williams developed a .22 training version of the M1911 using a floating chamber to give the .22 long rifle rimfire recoil similar to the .45 version.[5] As the Colt Service Ace, this was available both as a handgun and as a conversion kit for .45 M1911 pistols.[5]

[edit] World War II

World War II and the years leading up to it created a great demand. During the war, about 1.9 million units were procured by the U.S. Government for all forces, production being undertaken by several manufacturers, including Remington Rand (900,000 produced), Colt (400,000), Ithaca Gun Company (400,000), Union Switch & Signal (50,000), and Singer (500). So many were produced that after 1945 the government did not order any new pistols, and simply used existing parts inventories to "arsenal refinish" guns when necessary. This pistol was favored by US military personnel.[7]

Before World War II, a small number of Colts were produced under license at the Norwegian weapon factory Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk (these Colts were known as "Kongsberg Colt"). During the German occupation of Norway the production continued. These pistols are highly regarded by modern collectors, with the 920 examples stamped with Nazi Waffenamt codes being the most sought after. German forces also used captured M1911A1 pistols, using the designation "Pistole 660(a)".[8] The M1911 pattern also formed the basis for the Argentine Ballester-Molina and certain Spanish Star and Llama pistols made after 1922.

[edit] Replacement for most uses

After World War II, the M1911 continued to be a mainstay of the United States Armed Forces in the Korean War and the Vietnam War. It was used during Desert Storm in specialized U.S. Army units and U.S. Navy Mobile Construction Battalions (Seabees), and has seen service in both Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, with U.S. Army Special Forces Groups and Marine Corps Force Reconnaissance Companies.[9]

However, by the late 1970s the M1911A1 was acknowledged to be showing its age. Under political pressure from Congress to standardize on a single modern pistol design, the U.S. Air Force ran a Joint Service Small Arms Program to select a new semi-automatic pistol using the NATO-standard 9 mm Parabellum pistol cartridge. After trials, the Beretta 92S-1 was chosen. The Army contested this result and subsequently ran its own competition in 1981, the XM9 trials, eventually leading to the official adoption of the Beretta 92F on January 14, 1985. By the later 1980s production was ramping up despite a controversial XM9 retrial and a separate XM10 reconfirmation that was boycotted by some entrants of the original trials, cracks in the frames of some pre-M9 Beretta-produced pistols, and also despite a problem with slide separation using higher than specified pressure rounds that resulted in injuries to some U.S. Navy special operations operatives. This last issue resulted in an updated model that includes additional protection for the user, the 92FS, and updates to the ammunition used.[10]

By the early 1990s, most M1911A1s had been replaced by the M9, though a limited number remain in use by special units. The U.S. Marine Corps (USMC) in particular were noted for continuing the use of M1911 pistols for selected personnel in MEU(SOC) and reconnaissance units (though the USMC also purchased over 50,000 M9 handguns). For its part, the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) issued a requirement for a .45 ACP handgun in the Offensive Handgun Weapon System (OHWS) trials. This resulted in the Heckler & Koch OHWS becoming the MK23 Mod 0 Offensive Handgun Weapon System, beating the Colt OHWS, a much modified M1911. Dissatisfaction with the stopping power of the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge used in the Beretta M9 has actually promoted re-adoption of handguns based on the .45 ACP cartridge such as the M1911 design, along with other handguns, among USSOCOM units in recent years, though the M9 remains predominant both within SOCOM and in the U.S. military in general.[9]

[edit] Current users

Many military and law enforcement organizations in the United States and other countries continue to use (often modified) M1911A1 pistols including Marine Corps Special Operations Command, Los Angeles Police Department S.W.A.T. and L.A.P.D. S.I.S., the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, F.B.I. regional S.W.A.T. teams, and 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment—Delta (Delta Force). The Tacoma, Washington Police Department selected the Kimber Pro Carry II or Pro Carry II HD as optional, department supplied weapons available to its officers.[11]

A basic version of Smith & Wesson's SW1911 with user-installed Pachmayr grips.

M1911A1 by Springfield Armory, Inc. (contemporary remake of WWII G.I. Model, parkerized).
The M1911A1 is also extremely popular among the general public in the United States for practical and recreational purposes. The pistol is commonly used for concealed carry thanks in part to a single-stack magazine (which makes for a thinner pistol that is therefore easier to conceal), personal defense, target shooting, and competition. Numerous aftermarket accessories allow users to customize the pistol to their liking. There are a growing number of manufacturers of M1911-type pistols and the model continues to be quite popular for its reliability, simplicity, and patriotic appeal. Various tactical, target, and compact models are available. Price ranges from a low end of around $400 for an imported Armscor/Rock Island model to more than $4,000 for the best competition or tactical models from such as those by Dan Wesson, Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Les Baer and Nighthawk Custom.

Due to an increased demand for M1911 pistols among Army Special Operations units, who are known to field a variety of M1911 pistols, the Army Marksmanship Unit began looking to develop a new generation of M1911s and launched the M1911-A2 project in late 2004.[12] The goal was to produce a minimum of seven variants with various sights, internal and external extractors, flat and arched mainspring housings, integral and add-on magazine wells, a variety of finishes and other options, with the idea of providing the end-user a selection from which to select the features that best fit their missions.[12] The AMU performed a well received demonstration of the first group of pistols to the Marine Corps at Quantico and various Special Operations units at Ft. Bragg and other locations.[12] The project provided a feasibility study with insight into future projects.[12] Models were loaned to various Special Operations units, the results of which are classified. An RFP was issued for a Joint Combat Pistol but it was ultimately canceled.[12] Currently units are experimenting with an M1911 platform in .40 which will incorporate lessons learned from the M1911 A2 project. Ultimately, the M1911 A2 project provided a test bed for improving existing M1911s. An improved M1911 variant becoming available in the future is a possibility.[12]

The Springfield Custom Professional Model 1911A1 pistol is produced under contract by Springfield Armory for the FBI regional SWAT teams and the Hostage Rescue Team. This pistol is made in batches on a regular basis by the Springfield Custom Shop, and a few examples from most runs are made available for sale to the general public at a selling price of approximately US$2,700 each.

[edit] MEU(SOC) pistol

Main article: MEU(SOC) pistol

Marine Expeditionary Units formerly issued M1911s to Force Recon units.[13] Hand-selected Colt M1911A1 frames were gutted, deburred, and prepared for additional use by the USMC Precision Weapon Section (PWS) at Marine Corps Base Quantico.[13] They were then assembled with after-market grip safeties, ambidextrous thumb safeties, triggers, improved high-visibility sights, accurized barrels, grips, and improved Wilson magazines.[14] These hand-made pistols were tuned to specifications and preferences of end users.[15]

In the late 1980s, the Marines laid out a series of specifications and improvements to make Browning's design ready for 21st century combat, many of which have been included in MEU(SOC) pistol designs, but design and supply time was limited.[15] Discovering that the Los Angeles Police Department was pleased with their special Kimber M1911 pistols, a single source request was issued to Kimber for just such a pistol despite the imminent release of their TLE/RLII models.[16] Kimber shortly began producing a limited number of what would be later termed the Interim Close Quarters Battle pistol (ICQB). Maintaining the simple recoil assembly, 6-inch barrel (though using a stainless steel match grade barrel), and internal extractor, the ICQB is not much different from Browning's original design.

The final units as issued to MCSOCOM Det-1 are the Kimber ICQBs with Surefire IMPL (Integrated Military Pistol Light), Dawson Precision Rails, Tritium Novak LoMount sights, Gemtech TRL Tactical Retention Lanyards, modified Safariland 6004 holsters, and Wilson Combat '47D' 8 round magazines. They have reportedly been used with over 15,000 rounds apiece.[16]

[edit] Other users

Colt 1911 British Service Model, cal .455 Webley Auto
Numbers of Colt M1911s were used by the Royal Navy as sidearms during World War I in .455 Webley Automatic caliber.[5] The handguns were then transferred to the Royal Air Force where they saw use in limited numbers up until the end of World War II as sidearms for air crew in event of bailing out in enemy territory.[5] Some units of the South Korean Air Force still use these original batches as officers' sidearms.

Norway used the Kongsberg Colt which was a license produced variant and is recognized by the unique slide catch. Many Spanish firearms manufacturers produced pistols derived from the 1911, such as the STAR Model B, the ASTRA 1911PL, and the Llama Model IX-A, just to name a few.[17] Argentina produced a licensed copy, the Model 1927 Sistema Colt, which eventually led to production of the cheaper Ballester-Molina, which is based on the 1911.

The German Volkssturm used captured M1911s at the end of World War II under the weapon code P.660(a).[18][19]

The Brazilian company IMBEL (Indústria de Material Bélico do Brasil) still produces the .45 in several variants for military and law enforcement uses.

The Greek Hellenic Army issues the M1911 as a sidearm. These are World War II production American pistols supplied as military aid in 1946 and afterward as the US aided Greece against Communist expansion.[20]

The Royal Thai Army uses the M-95, a copy of the M1911 which is still chambered in the .45 ACP round,[21] and also still uses USGI M1911s that were supplied as military aid during the Vietnam War era.

The Rapid Action Battalion (RAB Forces), an anti-terrorist tactical team in Bangladesh uses this weapon.[22]

The Armed Forces of the Philippines issues Mil-spec M1911A1 pistols as a sidearm to the special forces, military police and officers. These pistols are produced by Armscor and Colt.

A Chinese Arms manufacturer, Norinco, exports a clone of the M1911A1 for civilian purchase. Importation into the US was blocked by trade rules in 1993. Norinco also manufactured conversion kits to chamber the 7.62x25mm Tokarev round after the Korean war.

The T51K1 is an automatic pistol of Taiwanese origin. The weapon is a copy of the M1911 and is chambered in the .45 ACP round.[21]

[edit] Civilian models
Colt Government Mk. IV Series 70 (1970–1983): Introduced the accurized Collet Barrel Bushing (1970–1988).
Colt Government Mk. IV Series 80 (1983-?): Introduced an internal firing pin safety.
Colt M1991A1 (1991-2001 ORM; 2001–Present NRM): A hybrid of the M1911A1 military model redesigned to use the slide of the Mk. IV Model 80. The 1991-2001 model used the old Colt rollmark engraved on the slide. The 2001 model introduced a new rollmark engraving.

[edit] Custom models

A Colt Series 80 Gold Cup National Match edition with nickel plating
Since its inception, the M1911 has lent itself to easy customization. Replacement sights, grips, and other aftermarket accessories are the most commonly offered parts. Since the 1950s and the rise of competitive pistol shooting, many companies have been offering the M1911 as a base model for major customization. These modifications can range from changing the external finish, checkering the frame, and hand fitting custom hammers, triggers, and sears. Some modifications include installing compensators and the addition of accessories such as tactical lights and even scopes.[23] A common modification of John Moses Browning's design is to use a full-length guide rod that runs the full length of the recoil spring. This adds weight to the front of the pistol, but does not increase accuracy or reliability and does make the pistol more difficult to disassemble.[24] Custom guns can cost over $5000 and are built from the ground up or on existing base models.[25] The main companies offering custom Browning M1911s are: Springfield Custom Shop, Ed Brown, Nighthawk Custom, Wilson Combat, and Les Baer.

[edit] Design

Springfield Mil Spec field stripped
Browning's basic M1911 design has seen very little change throughout its production life.[1] The basic principle of the pistol is recoil operation.[1] As the expanding combustion gases force the bullet down the barrel, they give reverse momentum to the slide and barrel which are locked together during this portion of the firing cycle. After the bullet has left the barrel, the slide and barrel continue rearward a short distance.[1]

At this point, a link pivots the barrel down, out of locking recesses in the slide, and brings the barrel to a stop. As the slide continues rearward, a claw extractor pulls the spent casing from the firing chamber and an ejector strikes the rear of the case pivoting it out and away from the pistol. The slide stops and is then propelled forward by a spring to strip a fresh cartridge from the magazine and feed it into the firing chamber. At the forward end of its travel, the slide locks into the barrel and is ready to fire again.

The military mandated a grip safety and a manual safety.[1] A grip safety, sear disconnect, slide stop, half cock position, and manual safety (located on the left rear of the frame) are on all standard M1911A1s.[1] Several companies have developed a firing pin block safety. Colt's 80 series uses a trigger operated one and several other manufacturers, including Kimber and Smith & Wesson, use a Swartz firing-pin safety, which is operated by the grip safety.[26][27]

The same basic design has also been offered commercially and has been used by other militaries. In addition to the .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol), models chambered for .38 Super, 9 mm Parabellum, .400 Corbon, and other cartridges were also offered. The M1911 was developed from earlier Colt designs firing rounds such as .38 ACP. The design beat out many other contenders during the government's selection period, during the late 1890s and 1900s, up to the pistol's adoption. The M1911 officially replaced a range of revolvers and pistols across branches of the U.S. armed forces, though a number of other designs have seen use in certain niches.

Despite being challenged by newer and lighter weight pistol designs in .45 caliber, such as the Glock 21, the SIG Sauer P220 and the Heckler & Koch USP, the M1911 shows no signs of decreasing popularity and continues to be widely present in various competitive matches such as those of IDPA, IPSC, and Bullseye.[12]

The slide stop pin of the 1911 can be depressed with firing if the index finger is placed along the side of the gun to assist in aiming the gun. This is an effective method of aiming which has been known since the early 19th century. Cautionary language against using that method of aiming and firing was included in the initial manual on the 1911 which was published in 1912. It also is found in other military manuals on the 1911 up to the 1940s.[28]

[edit] Cultural impact

As of March 18, 2011, the state of Utah in the United States, as a way of honoring their native son, and M1911 designer John Browning, adopted the Browning M1911 as the "official firearm of Utah".[29]

Brother in Arms

09-05-2011, 03:33 PM

Law
I can see your a 1911 fan. They are excellent firearms, but for whatever reason pistols never really excited me that much. I'm more of a rifleman I suppose.

I think if I was a soldier in 2tk Id rather carry a 1911 in 45ACP than a berretta in 9mm. That being said, if one must carry 9mm the Hi-Power is one of my favorites!

Actually if I had to have a sidearm in 2tk Id probably carry a captured Tokarev which is very highly inspired by brownings designs. Or i'd hold out for a Stechkin APS I'd definitly be willing to trade a bottle of Tennesee Whiskey for one of those.

Brother in Arms

Webstral

09-05-2011, 03:46 PM

When I have the money to buy a semi-auto, I'm going to buy a 1911. No frills.

Panther Al

09-05-2011, 03:59 PM

When it comes to Rifles, on a decent day while I won't impress anyone, I won't embarrass myself either. But pistols on the other hand... Pistols I can shoot.

I love the 1911. Probably the best pistol ever designed. Sure, there are some out there are have clever details, or fancy engineering, or somesuch, but in the end the 1911 takes them all. I will grant, however, that when it comes to mouse guns, the High Power ranks right up there with the 1911. It is just flat out a good solid pistol. Nothing fancy (like the 1911), nothing clever, it just plain works.

I was born over in Germany and was almost 7 when I finally moved to the States, and my parents (Dad was US Cav) insisted that they make sure I learn how to be a good American, since I was well on my way to being a good little german: My german at the time was better than my english, somewhat embarrassing for a Military Parent. So, since Dad was stationed in Fort Huachuca he felt it was worth the long ass drive to live over in Tombstone so I can learn how to be a proper american kid. Little wonder that I wound up spending more time than I can imagine playing with pistols.

ArmySGT.

09-05-2011, 04:40 PM

[B] I challenge all here to read or look up why the good ole usa invented the 1911 and the .45 round in 230 grain. to much for me to write here.

Don't even need to look it up.

Philippine Insurrection after the US claimed the Phillipines as spoils of War from Spain at the close of the Spanish - American War.

The .45 Long Colt Peacemaker was being discontinued as swing out cylinder revolvers were coming into fashion. Officers were carrying .38 S&W revolvers now. The Moro Indians (Muslims) did not take to Americans any more than they did the Spanish.

The Moro Warrior high on opiates might absorb all six shots from an Officers .38 and kill him with a Kriss knife or sword and continue attacking and killing until succumbing to blood loss.

John Brownings Colt Pocket M was a favored design but .32 was to small, the Army at the time was just getting over its fascination with calibers that can stop a charging horse. John Brown came out with the new 1911 design and Colt manufactured it. .45 Colt Automatic Pistol (ACP).

When you need a pistol, you need the target dead right there (DRT).

Panther Al

09-05-2011, 04:57 PM

Agreed: I always got a laugh out of the whole thing.

1902: The US Army, fighting muslim insurgents, discovered that the .38 (About 9.5mm) wasn't doing the job, and decided that the .45 was the way to go.

2002: The US Army, fighting muslim insurgents, discovered that the 9mm (About .36) wasn't doing the job, and...

Well, this is one time I think we wished that the Generals actually did plan to fight the last war...

Legbreaker

09-05-2011, 07:04 PM

With regard to supply chains in relation to Military and Law Enforcement, it's like comparing apples and oranges.
The military have a very high turnover of ammunition and therefore their weapons wear out faster and require more maintenance including replacement parts.
How many law enforcement personnel fire their weapon more than a few rounds a year to qualify? Just take a look at the recent posts in Stupid Things thread to see what I'm getting at...

So, law enforcement really doesn't need much in the way of logistical support and therefore can afford to pick up whatever they feel like. They don't need to even glance at military procurement unless they really, really want a weapon which will be suitable for the battlefield rather than wounding a suspect.

Apples and oranges....

Sanjuro

09-05-2011, 07:36 PM

Interesting.
The US began the 20th Century using .38", then decided to opt for .45" instead.
The British Army began the 20th Century using .455" for pistols, but opted between WW1 and WW2 to switch to .38"!

LAW0306

09-05-2011, 09:43 PM

How many law enforcement personnel fire their weapon more than a few rounds a year to qualify?

I guess your law enforcement in you area is differnt then mine. I have the FBI/DEA/ and any one else at my range every week. Same with state and locals!My brother in -law is in a Major department in the Pacific northwest they do the same. Most of my Old Marines are in A very large department in the southwest they do the same. Have Marines in a small department in the blureridge mountians they do the same. we have state and federal standards we must meet here in the good old USA. Our guys train alot. I dont know about 20 years ago...but since I have been around they train hard and do a good job. Both at large and small departments.

Bullet Magnet

09-05-2011, 09:52 PM

1902: The US Army, fighting muslim insurgents, discovered that the .38 (About 9.5mm) wasn't doing the job, and decided that the .45 was the way to go.

2002: The US Army, fighting muslim insurgents, discovered that the 9mm (About .36) wasn't doing the job, and...

Why do I have a feeling that eventually, someone else will post exactly what you said, and be adding 2102 to the list?

pmulcahy11b

09-05-2011, 09:56 PM

The British Army began the 20th Century using .455" for pistols, but opted between WW1 and WW2 to switch to .38"!

To honest, though, the various types of the .455 Webley round all had one thing in common: they were underpowered, trying to push a big heavy bullet with not nearly enough propellant. The .455 Webley is a rather anemic round, despite the large bullet.

pmulcahy11b

09-05-2011, 10:06 PM

I was born over in Germany and was almost 7 when I finally moved to the States...

I was born in Germany, and left with my parents when I was six weeks old. That much I know for sure. But the story from my mother about the circumstances of my birth...I know its either largely bullshit or wholesale bullshit. My mother insists on sticking to her story (though bits and pieces have shifted through the years), and I haven't seen my father since I was 8 and he been dead since 2002. I think I have a good handle on the real truth, but my mother doesn't want to hear it or comment on it. (I'd love to know, if what I think is true, my mother would be so embarrassed about it.) Oh well, I'll have it nailed down for certain one day. Afterall...

...I've not yet told my mother that the stories she's told about my sister's birth are bullshit too, and her real father is a US Army major see was having an affair with while she was the nanny for him and his wife. Took me a few years of careful listening to put that together, but I'm reasonably certain it's the truth.

rcaf_777

09-06-2011, 12:11 PM

Sorry break the news, but the new pistol will no doubt be a 9mm, and why would'nt it be, lets face it pistols used my the military are back weapons not primary weapon, so why carried a heavier round? because you might use it?

Yes I know the Spec Ops folks do have a heavier round but lets face, it still used as back up weapon should thier main weapon fail, based on that I can see why you need heavier round you need the stoping power. That operator needs take down the bad guy with one shot

But dose the rest of the army need that kind of stoping power? my M16A2 clone has never let me down neither has my Browning HP-35

Don't get me wrong I love the M1911 and think is a great weapon but it time with the military has come and gone.

Over 70 different countries use or make the 9mm round and it now the NATO standard round that a lot of person that make money off the 9mm round

HorseSoldier

09-06-2011, 03:06 PM

I'm a 1911 guy, but there's so much silly mythology out there about the design.

The US 38 cartridge during the Philipines Insurrection was less powerful than a 380 ACP, with consequently limited penetration and ability to smash on penetration. Comparing it to modern hot 9x19 loads is comparable to drawing conclusions about 30-06 based on the 30 Carbine cartridge.

It's also worth noting that CAG (aka Delta) replaced their 1911s with Glock 19s in the late 1990s. They subsequently adopted the Glock 22 and 23 in 40 cal (one of each issued to assaulters, for use as needed/appropriate).

It's a good design. I carried one as a patrol officer because it has the best trigger ever put on a semi auto pistol. But it's not miraculous, and wasn't as influential as Brownings later lockwork for the High Power which is the format most modern pistols depart from.

ArmySGT.

09-06-2011, 05:35 PM

When I have the money to buy a semi-auto, I'm going to buy a 1911. No frills.

I recommend Rock Island Arms.

Under $450 great materials, no slop in the frames, well blued. Best for the value in M1911A1.

After that the RIA Tactical for the beaver tail already done for you.

Still under $500.

Webstral

09-06-2011, 10:17 PM

I recommend Rock Island Arms.

Interesting! My cohorts locally swear by the Kimber, though I haven't spoken with them lately.

Panther Al

09-06-2011, 10:32 PM

Interesting! My cohorts locally swear by the Kimber, though I haven't spoken with them lately.

Oh no doubt. The Kimber is probably, in my opinion, the best mid range 1911 out there, with the SiG clones being close behind. But you are going to be paying anywhere from 700 to 1000 bucks for one - which is anything but a cheap low frills one as you mentioned in the earlier post.

Well, cheap wasn't mentioned, but...

Still.

Webstral

09-06-2011, 11:15 PM

Well, cheap wasn't mentioned, but...

I prefer to think of myself as value oriented at the lower end of the budgetary scale. "Cheap" has pejorative connotations. I say no frills because I want my money to go into a handgun that reliably fires a round with good stopping power. I intend to use a handgun in combat (if a firefight ever becomes unavoidable), not to impress onlookers or myself. I know some shooters swear by this type of sight, that barrel extension, this special feature, those grips, ad nauseum. Statistically, the overwhelming majority of firefights in the American civilian world occur with shooter and target occupying space within fifteen feet of each other. Nearly half of the firefights within this range actually occur with the shooters no more than five feet apart. I’ve never been in a firefight at this range with a handgun, so I readily acknowledge that there’s room for some of my observations to be (mis)interpreted. However, my limited experience (or overabundant experience, depending on whether you are talking to my wife or my mother) in this area has taught me that the most important factor in a firefight at this range is nerve. So long as the weapon fires when I press the trigger, so long as the round is powerful enough to put the target down with a controlled pair to the thoracic cavity, and so long as I can control the recoil well enough to get that controlled pair on-target, everything else counts as “frills”. I haven’t invested in a .44 because I haven’t had a satisfactory experience controlling the recoil when I have used range guns or friends’ guns. When I haven’t been to the range in a while, I have a tendency to blow the first shot; ergo, the ability to get back on the target quickly matters to me. I can do this with my Taurus 607 (.357), and I’ve had a good experience doing this with a 1911. So what I really want in my semi-auto is the basics: dependability, stopping power, ease of handling.

One thing I really liked about the M4 is its controllability. The recoil is modest, and the muzzle almost obeys one's thoughts in close-range engagements. I've not had the same experience with handguns--especially revolvers, for reasons I'm sure we all understand.

ArmySGT.

09-06-2011, 11:28 PM

Interesting! My cohorts locally swear by the Kimber, though I haven't spoken with them lately.

This is the story about Kimber as I know it. Kimber sold the pistol division off to an investor. The investor promptly went to cheaper suppliers and quality dropped significantly. Banking on the name and the fame.

As I understand it many PDs have pulled Kimber from their list up authorized pistols.

That was in 06 so things may have turned around.

Why pay 800 -1200 for a name. I have held and worked on RIAs and believe they are every bit as good. Customer service is good. Imported parts from the Philippines (Hello Irony) and assembled in Pahrump, NV.

HorseSoldier

09-07-2011, 03:35 AM

There's been some pretty significant dings on Kimber's reputation, most notably the guy at 10-8 Performance basically saying that with then current QC he did not recommend the Kimber Warrior for patrol use. That said, it's a popular pistol in my department and guys who run them don't seem to have issues, but that's just a handful of guys still, so my stats aren't definitive.

To make an affordable 1911, you've got to cut costs somewhere -- be it some or all foreign labor, cheaper parts, etc. It's an overly complicated design compared to more modern weapons and requires more effort to build. Built properly, though, it'll outshoot just about every other pistol design on the planet.

Cpl. Kalkwarf

09-07-2011, 05:09 AM

This is the story about Kimber as I know it. Kimber sold the pistol division off to an investor. The investor promptly went to cheaper suppliers and quality dropped significantly. Banking on the name and the fame.

As I understand it many PDs have pulled Kimber from their list up authorized pistols.

That was in 06 so things may have turned around.

Why pay 800 -1200 for a name. I have held and worked on RIAs and believe they are every bit as good. Customer service is good. Imported parts from the Philippines (Hello Irony) and assembled in Pahrump, NV.

Ill second the RIAs, Good weapons. Several of my friends have them. I have a Colt and a Kimber. Heck im thinking of getting one just cause they are really a deal. And I would not be ashamed to put them right next to either of the others. :D

waiting4something

09-07-2011, 07:03 AM

StainlessSteelCynic

09-07-2011, 06:10 PM

What's with Delta Force? They used to be cool. Now they have a stupid name, use boring unsexy handguns, look like everyone else in the army and have the same mission as everyone else (being it's a war on terror). I never would have guessed they would have switched to Glocks and .40 S&W ones at that! I guess the days of Lee Marvin and Chuck Norris are long gone.

Superman wears Chuck Norris pajamas to bed, I've seen the pictures on the internet and if it's on the internet it must be true!

:p:D