Recommissioned US Navy ships

[Mohoender]

I'm sure we already discussed that but here is what I found on the subject. With the war building up, several US ships which had been mouthballed sometimes for years are slowly put back into commission.

My take would be:
4 Essex-class Aircraft Carrier (Bennington, Hornet, Lexington and Oriskany). In fact I found 6 around but I consider that 2 are to be used for spare parts and 1 (Lexington) had just been decommissioned).
2 Des Moines-class Cruisers (Salem and Des Moines). The last being used for spare parts.
12 Forrest Sherman-class Destroyers (Very recently taken out of service)
4 FRAM modified destroyers
6 Terrebonne Parish-class LST (or similar ships)
3 GUPPY program submarines
Several Asheville-class Corvettes
Several PBR and PCF River Patrol Boats

Brooke and Garcia-class frigates are up to you. For my part they had not been decommissioned. Same thing for the 3 Barbel-class submarines.

I didn't include auxiliary ships as they are much more numerous

To note, some of these types such as the FRAM, GUPPY and T.Parrish are still found in large numbers in foreign navies. I tend to have most FRAM being delivered to the carribeans where they end up fighting the Mexican ones.

[kota1342000]

Very good. Do you have hull numbers and names for the destroyers? And how many Ashevilles do you figure are left?

[Mohoender]

Hull numbers for the FRAM destroyers:

DD743 Southerland
DD724 Laffey
DD763 William C. Lawe
DD850 Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.

Then, I would count something like 10 to 12 Ashevilles but I'm not entirely sure. Some would be recovered from the civilian agencies they were transfered to and need extensive refit.
Others could be recovered from countries where they were on lease (2 to be transferred to Greece, 2 from Colombia and 1 from Korea).
The last would be found in the reserve fleet.

As far as I know it is possible that only one had been destroyed by the mid-1990's

[Legbreaker]

From the very beginning, this is a "come as you are" war; neither side is adequately prepared.

That's from the 2.2 BYB. Given that any naval shipping of note is on the bottom by mid 1997 (barely six months into the war), I just can't see any mothballed ships being available before the strategic nuke strikes in November 1997. After then, there won't be the people, nor resources to do the job.

Sure moves toward refurbishment may have started, but as has been discussed previously, there's no justification for it prior to June/July 1997 - The bulk of Pact shipping is on the bottom before then and Nato rules the waves. There's more important things to spend precious war resources on than refitting ships which in the eyes of the politicians who hold the purse strings, is completely unnecessary.

In all theatres the Pact in on the retreat in the first half of 1997 and victory can be smelt. It's only the Pact use of tactical nukes that allows them to tip the balance.

[dragoon500ly]

Going into the 1995 start date...

There are 5 Essex-class carriers: AVT-61 Lexington was the Navy's training carrier (no armament and only air search and nav radars); CVA-31 Bon Homme Richard (4 5-inch/38 single mounts and air, surface and nav radars); CV-34 Oriskany (1 5-inch/38 single mount and air, surface and nav radars); CVS-12 Hornet (3 5-inch/38 singles) and CVS-20 Bennington (4 5-inch/38 singles), the CVS have full radar suites. With the exception of Lexington, the remaining Essex-class carriers can best be described as being in very poor material condition, it would actually be cheaper to build new ships than attempt to modernize these ships. And don't forget, during this time, they were too small to operate modern jet aircraft, they mostly likely could have carried a AV-8B/SH-60F air group, but where would the spare aircraft come from?

There are actually three Des Moines class heavy cruisers: CA-148 Newport News, CA-134 Des Moines and CA-139 Salem, the Newport News suffered a turret explosion in her number 2 turret during the Vietnam War. While the most modern of the three ships, the Newport News, it is doubtful that she would be recommissioned. So she would most likely be used as spare parts for her two sisters.

There are actually two classes of Forrest Sherman destroyers. The ones most likely to be recommissioned are the ASW or "Davis" Class, these six ships gave up the w-inch mounts and one of the 5-inch mounts in order to mount a Mark 16 ASROC launcher. The remaining five ships gave up their 3-inch mounts and were refited with Mark 32 ASW torpedo tubes. Of the remaining three ships; DD-933 Barry is a hulk at the Washington Navy Yard and is used in official ceremonies. DD-938 Jonas Ingram was stripped of weapons and electronics and is a test hulk at the Philadelphia Naval Yard; the last, DD-945 Hull was stricken and was being scrapped.

The FRAM conversion destroyers were all stricken or transferred to other navies, its doubtful that they would have been recommissioned, again due to poor material condition.

Of the Brooke and Garcia-class figs, its more likely that the Brookes would have been recommissioned, due to their SAM launcher. And certainly the Knox-class would have been kept in service. As for the Garcias...they could have been reactivated, but the Knox-class was a better all around platform.

Of the 17 Asheville-class patrol gunboats, 1 was discarded in 1984, 3 were stricken in 1977, 2 went to the Massachusetts Maritime Academy in 1976/78, 2 went to the EPA in 1977/78, and 5 were transferred to Columbia, Turkey and South Korea in 1971/2 in 1973 and 2 in 1983. Based on the timeline, they just wouldn't have been available for recommissing. According to the Naval Institute Guide to the USN, these ships were transferred as part of the Military Assistance Program, not leased, the USN couldn't recall them.

Entering into the Twilight War, the USN still had 3 PB Mark IV, 17 PB Mk III, 2 PB Mk I in service, as well as 30 PBR Mk2 (Vietnam-era Swift boats) and 22 armored troop carriers (Vietnam-era riverine craft).

The 6 "Terrebonne Parish" LSTs are survivors of a class built during the Korean War. They are all in the Suisun Bay National Defense Reserve Fleet along with the 3 "De Soto County" class. These ships haven't seen service since 1972. Like the rest of the Suisun Bay ships, their material condition is "very poor".

Going into the 1990s, the only GUPPY-class sub still in service was SS-576 Darter, she was also the last US sub to use the old Mark37 torpedoes (the GUPPYs cannot use the Mk48 ADCAPS without extensive modification). The other two, SS-565 Wahoo is partially stripped and is a hulk and SS-566 Trout is in mothballs, both at the Philadelphia Naval Yard.

Hope this helps!

[WallShadow]

While some of the vessels are described as in poor material condition and easier to replace than upgrade, once the nukes have started flying, this attitude may have another think coming. If a ship could be made watertight and her engines made to get her underway, I get the feeling that lots of improvements would be made enroute to wherever she's headed with a couple of welding units, a portable machine shop, salvaged structural steel, and scrounged wiring, pipe, conduit, and electronics.

Philadelphia Naval Yard seems to be within the devastation range of the western New Jersey oil refinery strikes, not to mention the aftermath of rioting and dog-eat-dog survival. Personnel, equipment, and materials stand little chance of making it through to carry on the fight.

[rcaf_777]

Here what I had in a file I call US ships at dock

Submarines

SSN 575 Seawolf 30 March 1987 Scrapped 30 Sept 1997, Bremerton
SSN 578 Skate 12 Sept 1986 Scrapped 6 March 1995, Bremerton
SSN 579 Swordfish 2 June 1989 Scrapped 11 Sept 1995, Bremerton
SS 580 Barbel 4 Dec 1989 Sold 4 March 1992
SS 582 Bonefish 28 Sept 1988 Sold 17 August 1989
SSN 583 Sargo 26 Feb 1988 Scrapped 5 April 1995, Bremerton
SSN 584 Seadragon 12 June 1983 Scrapped 18 Sept 1995
SSN 585 Skipjack 19 April 1990 Pending scrapping, Bremerton
SSN 586 Triton 29 March 1969 Pending scrapping, Bremerton
SSN 587 Halibut 30 June 1976 Scrapped 9 Sept 1994, Bremerton
SSN 588 Scamp 28 April 1988 Scrapped 30 Sept 1994, Bremerton
SSN 590 Sculpin 3 Aug 1990 Pending scrapping, Bremerton
SSN 591 Shark 16 Oct 1986 Scrapped 28 June 1996, Bremerton
SSN 592 Snook 16 Oct 1986 Pending scrapping, Bremerton
SSN 594 Permit 23 July 1991 Scrapped 20 May 1993, Bremerton
SSN 595 Plunger 10 Feb 1989 Scrapped 8 March 1996, Bremerton
SSN 596 Barb 20 Dec 1989 Scrapped 14 March 1996, Bremerton
SSN 597 Tullibee 18 June 1988 Scrapped 1 April 1996, Bremerton
SSN 598 G. Washington 24 Jan 1985 Scrapped 30 Sept 1998, Bremerton
SSN 599 P. Henry 25 May 1984 Scrapped 31 Aug 1997, Bremerton
SSBN 600 T. Roosevelt 28 Feb 1981 Scrapped 24 March 1995, Bremerton
SSN 601 R.E. Lee 1 Dec 1983 Scrapped 30 Sept 1991, Bremerton
SSBN 602 A. Lincoln 28 Feb 1981 Scrapped 10 May 1994, Bremerton
SSN 603 Pollack 1 March 1989 Scrapped 17 Feb 1995, Bremerton
SSN 604 Haddo 1 Oct 1990 Scrapped 30 June 1992, Bremerton
SSN 605 Jack 2 Oct 1989 Scrapped 30 June 1992, Bremerton
SSN 606 Tinosa 15 July 1991 Scrapped 15 Aug 1992, Bremerton
SSN 607 Dace 27 Feb 1988 Scrapped 17 Jan 1997, Bremerton
SSN 608 E. Allen 31 March 1983 Scrapped 30 July 1999, Bremerton
SSN 609 S. Houston 1 March 1991 Scrapped 3 Feb 1992, Bremerton
SSN 610 T.A. Edison 1 Dec 1983 Scrapped 1 Dec 1997, Bremerton
SSN 611 J. Marshall 14 Feb 1991 Scrapped 29 March 1993, Bremerton
SSN 612 Guardfish 15 July 1991 Scrapped 9 July 1992, Bremerton
SSN 613 Flasher 18 July 1991 Scrapped 11 May 1994, Bremerton
SSN 614 Greenling 1 Oct 1993 Scrapped 30 Sept 1994, Bremerton
SSN 615 Gato 7 April 1995 Scrapped 1 Nov 1996, Bremerton
SSBN 616 Lafayette 1 March 1991 Scrapped 25 Feb 1992, Bremerton
SSBN 617 A. Hamilton 1 Oct 1992 Scrapped 28 Feb 1994, Bremerton
SSN 618 T. Jefferson 24 Jan 1985 Scrapped 6 March 1998, Bremerton
SSBN 619 A. Jackson 31 Aug 1989 Scrapped 30 Aug 1999, Bremerton
SSBN 620 J. Adams 14 Sep 1988 Scrapped 12 Feb 1996, Bremerton
SSN 621 Haddock 2 Apr 1992 Pending scrapping, Bremerton
SSBN 622 J. Monroe 22 Feb 1990 Scrapped 10 Jan 1995, Bremerton
SSBN 623 N. Hale 5/1986* Scrapped 5 April 1994, Bremerton
SSBN 624 W. Wilson 11 Jan 1993 Scrapped 27 Oct 1998, Bremerton
SSBN 625 H. Clay 12 Mar 1990 Scrapped 30 Sept 1997, Bremerton
SSBN 627 J. Madison 11 Aug 1991 Scrapped 24 Oct 1997, Bremerton
SSBN 628 Tecumseh 15 Feb 1993 Scrapped 1 April 1994, Bremerton
SSBN 629 Daniel Boone 1 Oct 1993 Scrapped 4 Nov 1994, Bremerton
SSBN 630 J. C. Calhoun 1 Oct 1993 Scrapped 18 Nov 1994, Bremerton
SSBN 631 U. S. Grant 14 Feb 1992 Scrapped 29 March 1993, Bremerton
SSBN 632 V. Steuben 7 Jul 1993 Pending scrapping, Bremerton
SSBN 633 C. Pulaski 1 Oct 1993# Scrapped 21 Oct 1994, Bremerton
SSBN 634 S. Jackson 10 Jun 1994 Scrapped 13 Oct 1995, Bremerton
SSBN 636 N. Greene May 1986 Scrapped 20 Oct 2000, Bremerton
SSN 637 Sturgeon 15 April 1994 Scrapped 11 Sep 1995, Bremerton

[rcaf_777]

Surface Combatants

CVS 12 Hornet 26 Jun 1970 Sold 14 April 1993
CVS 20 Bennington 15 Jan 1970 Sold 12 Jan 1994
CVA 31 B.H. Richard 2 Jul 1971 Sold 4 Feb 1992
CV 34 Oriskany 15 May 1976 Sold 26 Jan 1993
CV 41 Midway 11 Apr 1992 Held for donation, Bremerton
CV 43 Coral Sea 30 Apr 1991 Sold 30 Mar 1993
CV 60 Saratoga 30 Sep 1994 For disposal, Newport, RI
CV 66 America 9 Aug 1996 For disposal, Philadelphia
BB 62 New Jersey 8 Feb 1991 Museum 20 July 2000, Camden, NJ
BB 63 Missouri 31 Mar 1992 Museum 4 May 1998, Pearl Harbor
BB 64 Wisconsin 30 Sep 1991 Reserve/Museum, Norfolk
CA 134 Des Moines 14 Jul 1961 Held for donation, Philadelphia
CA 148 Newport News 27 Jun 1975 Sold 25 Feb 1993
CG 5 Oklahoma City 15 Dec 1979 Sunk as target, 25 March 1999
CGN 9 Long Beach 2 Jul 1994 Pending scrapping, Bremerton
CG 10 Albany 29 Aug 1980 Sold 30 Oct 1990
CG 11 Chicago 1 Mar 1980 Sold 9 Dec 1991
CG 16 Leahy 1 Oct 1993 For disposal, Suisun Bay
CG 17 H. E. Yarnell 29 Oct 1993 Sold 14 April 1995
CG 18 Worden 1 Oct 1993 Sunk as a target 17 June 2000
CG 19 Dale 23 Sep 1994 Sunk as a target 6 Apr 2000
CG 20 R. K. Turner 31 Mar 1995 Sunk as a target 9 Aug 1998
CG 21 Gridley 21 Jan 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay
CG 22 England 21 Jan 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay
CG 23 Halsey 28 Jan 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay
CG 24 Reeves 12 Nov 1993 Sunk as a target 31 May 2001
CGN 25 Bainbridge 1 Aug 1995 Pending scrapping, Bremerton
CG 26 Belknap 15 Feb 1995 Sunk as a target 24 Sept 1998
CG 27 J. Daniels 22 Jan 1994 Sold 10 Feb 1999
CG 28 Wainwright 10 Nov 1993 Sold 16 Dec 1994
CG 29 Jouett 28 Jan 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay
CG 30 Horne 4 Feb 1995 For disposal, Suisun Bay
CG 31 Sterett 24 Mar 1994 Held for donation, Suisun Bay
CG 32 W. H. Standley 11 Feb 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay
CG 33 Fox 15 Apr 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay
CG 34 Biddle 30 Nov 1993 Sold 14 April 1995
CGN 35 Truxtun 10 Oct 1994 Scrapped 16 Apr 1999, Bremerton
DDG 2 C. F. Adams 20 Nov 1992 Held for donation, Philadelphia
DDG 3 J. King 30 March 1990 Sold 10 Feb 1999
DDG 4 Lawrence 30 March 1990 Sold 15 Apr 1994
DDG 5 C. V. Ricketts 31 Oct 1989 Sold 15 Apr 1994
DDG 6 Barney 17 Dec 1990 Sold 15 April 1994
DDG 7 H. B. Wilson 2 Oct 1989 Sold 20 June 1994
DDG 8 L. McCormick 1 Oct 1991 Sold 20 June 1994
DDG 9 Towers 1 Oct 1990 Sold 20 June 1994
DDG 10 Sampson 24 Jun 1991 Sold 25 Jul 1995
DDG 11 Sellers 31 Oct 1989 Sold 25 Jul 1995
DDG 12 Robison 1 Oct 1991 Sold 20 Jun 1994 x
DDG 13 Hoel 1 Oct 1990 Sold 20 Jun 1994 x
DDG 14 Buchanan 1 Oct 1991 Sunk as a target 14 June 2000
DDG 17 Conyngham 29 Oct 1990 Sold 15 April 1994
DDG 19 Tattnall 18 Jan 1991 Sold 15 April 1994
DDG 21 Cochrane 1 Oct 1990 Sold 13 Jan 2001
DDG 22 B. Stoddert 20 Dec 1991 Sold 13 Jan 2001
DDG 32 J. P. Jones 15 Dec 1982 Sunk as a target 31 Jan 2001
DDG 34 Somers 19 Nov 1982 Sunk as target 22 July 1998
DDG 37 Farragut 31 Oct 1989 Sold 16 December 1994
DDG 38 Luce 1 April 1991 Sold 16 December 1994
DDG 39 MacDonough 23 Oct 1992 Sold 16 December 1994
DDG 40 Coontz 2 Oct 1989 Sold 15 April 1994
DDG 41 King 28 March 1991 Sold 15 Apr 1994
DDG 42 Mahan 15 June 1993 Sold 31 Aug 1995
DDG 43 Dahlgren 31 July 1992 Sold 15 Apr 1994
DDG 44 W. V. Pratt 30 Sept 1991 Sold 14 Sep 1995
DDG 45 Dewey 31 Aug 1990 Sold 15 Apr 1994
DDG 46 Preble 15 Nov 1991 Sold 15 Apr 1994
DDG 993 Kidd 12 March 1998 Held at FMS Philadelphia
DD 937 Davis 20 Dec 1982 Sold 11 Dec 1992
DD 942 Bigelow 5 Nov 1982 Sold 11 Dec 1992
DD 943 Blandy 5 Nov 1982 Sold 11 Dec 1992
DD 944 Mullinix 11 Aug 1983 Sunk as a target 22 Aug 1992
FF 1054 Gray 30 Sep 1991 Sold 26 May 2000
FF 1055 Hepburn 20 Dec 1991 Sunk as a target 4 June 2002
FF 1060 Lang 12 Dec 1991 For disposal, Suisun Bay
FF 1071 Badger 20 Dec 1991 Sunk as target 22 July 1998
FF 1072 Blakely 15 Nov 1991 Sold 29 Sept 1999
FF 1074 H. E. Holt 2 July 1992 Sunk as a target 10 July 2002
FF 1077 Ouellet 6 Aug 1993 Thai P. Naphalai 27 Nov 1996
FFT 1078 J. Hewes 30 June 1994 Held at FMS Philadelphia
FFT 1079 Bowen 3 June 1994 Held at FMS Philadelphia
FF 1080 Paul 14 Aug 1992 Held at FMS Philadelphia
FF 1081 Aylwin 15 May 1992 Held at FMS Philadelphia
FF 1094 Pharris 15 April 1992 Held at FMS Philadelphia
FF 1096 Valdez 15 Dec 1991 Held at FMS Philadelphia

[rcaf_777]

Amphibious Ships

LPH 2 Iwo Jima 14 July 1993 Sold 18 Dec 1995
LPH 3 Okinawa 17 Dec 1992 Sunk as a target 5 June 2002
LKA 115 Mobile 4 Feb 1994 Out of Service 1 Nov 1996
LPD 1 Raleigh 13 Dec 1991 Sunk as a target 4 Dec 1994
LPD 2 Vancouver 27 March 1992 For disposal, Pearl Harbor
LSD 28 Thomaston 5 Sept 1984 Sold 29 Sep 1995
LSD 29 Plymouth Rock 30 Sept 1983 Sold 25 Aug 1995
LSD 30 Fort Snelling 28 Sept 1984 Sold 25 Aug 1995
LSD 31 Point Defiance 30 Sept 1983 Sold 29 Sep 1995
LSD 35 Monticello 1 Oct 1985 Sold 29 Sep 1995
LST 1179 Newport 30 Sept 1992 Mexican Sonora 18 Jan 2001
LST 1180 Manitowo 30 June 1993 Taiwanese Chung Ho 10 July 1996
LST 1195 Barbour C 31 March 1992 Pending disposal, Pearl Harbor

[rcaf_777]

Coastal & Mine Craft

PHM 1 Pegasus 30 July 1993
PHM 2 Hercules 30 July 1993
PHM 3 Taurus 30 July 1993
PHM 4 Aquila 30 July 1993
PHM 5 Aries 30 July 1993
PHM 6 Gemini 30 July 1993
MSO 433 Engage 30 Dec 1991
MSO 437 Enhance 31 Dec 1991
MSO 438 Esteem 20 Sept 1991
MSO 439 Excel 30 Sept 1992
MSO 440 Exploit 16 Dec 1993
MSO 441 Exultant 30 June 1993
MSO 449 Impervious 12 Dec 1991
MSO 456 Inflict 30 March 1990
MSO 464 Pluck 29 Nov 1990
MSO 490 Leader 12 Dec 1991
MSO 509 Adroit 12 Dec 1991
MSO 511 Affray 31 Dec 1992

[rcaf_777]

Auxiliaries

AD 15 Prairie 26 March 1993 Sold 6 April 1993
AD 18 Sierra 29 Oct 1993 Sold 25 Aug 1995
AD 19 Yosemite 27 Jan 1994 For disposal, Norfolk
T-AGDS 2 Point Loma 1 Oct 1993 Sold 29 Sept 1995
T-AGFF 1 Glover 27 Aug 1992 Sold 15 Apr 1994
T-AGOS 4 Triumph 20 Jun 1994
T-AKR 10 Mercury 1 Apr 1993 Returned to owner 1 April 1993
AO 51 Ashtabula 30 Sep 1982 Sold 25 Oct 1995
T-AO 57 Marias 15 Aug 1982 Sold 18 Sept 1995
T-AO 106 Navasota 2 Oct 1991 Sold 25 Oct 1995
AR 6 Ajax 31 Dec 1986 Sold 23 May 1997
AS 11 Fulton 17 May 1991 Sold 17 Nov 1995
ASR 13 Kittiwake 30 Sep 1994 For disposal
ASR 21 Pigeon 31 Aug 1992 Sold 29 Sept 1995
ATF 105 Moctobi 30 Sep 1985 Transferred to WI 29 Dec 1997
ATF 110 Quapaw 30 Aug 1985 Transferred to WI 29 Dec 1997
T-ATF 149 Atakapa 1 Oct 1981 Sunk as a target 25 Aug 2000
T-ATF 158 Mosopelea 1 Oct 1981 For disposal, Norfolk
ATF 159 Paiute 7 Aug 1992 Transferred to WI 29 Dec 1997
ATF 160 Papago 28 Jul 1992 Transferred to WI 29 Dec 1997
AVT 59 Forrestal 10 Sep 1993 Held for donation, Newport, RI

[rcaf_777]

USCG Ships

WHEC 379 Unimak 29 Apr 1988 Returned to USN
WMEC 76 Ute 26 May 1988 Returned to USN 26 May 1988
WMEC 153 Chilula 27 Jun 1991 Returned to USN for disposal
WMEC 295 Evergreen 13 Jun 1990 Transferred to USN
WPB 95308 C. Strait 21 Jan 1983 Training hulk, Cape May, NJ
WPB 95310 C. Wash 1 Jun 1987 Returned USN 1987
WPB 95311 C. Hedge 7 Jan 1987 Returned USN 7 Jan 1987
WPB 95317 C. Jellison 12 Dec 1989 Returned USN
WPB 82314 P. Thatcher 13 Mar 1992 Training hulk, Curtis Bay
WLM 542 White Bush 16 Sep 1985 Sold 7 September 1995
WLR 259 Dogwood 11 Aug 1989 Memphis, Army Corps yard
WLR 80310 Lantana 27 Oct 1991 Memphis, Army Corps yard
WYTM 91 Mahoning 1 Oct 1984 New York Maritime College
WYTM 99 Sauk 30 Apr 1985 New York Maritime College
WYTM 85009 Messenger 1995 Sold 12/1998
WYTL 65613 Bitt 4 Oct 1982 NSF Clifford A. Barnes (date?)
SBA 1 Atlantic Sentry 31 Dec 1991 US Army 31 Dec 1991
SBA 2 Caribbean Sentry 31 Dec 1991 US Army 31 Dec 1991
SBA 3 Gulf Sentry 31 Dec 1991 US Army 31 Dec 1991
SBA 4 Pacific Sentry 31 Dec 1991 US Army 31 Dec 1991
SBA 5 Windward Sentry 31 Dec 1991 US Army 31 Dec 1991

[rcaf_777]

Other Agencies

NOAA

R101 Oceanographer Sold To The Kirkland Yacht Club Marina Of Kirkland Washington
R102 Discoverer in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Seattle
R103 M. Baldridge in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Mami
R663 Murre II in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Seattle
S132 Surveyor in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Seattle
S220 Fairweather in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Seattle
S221 Rainier in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Seattle
S222 Mt. Mitchell Awaiting Sale, NOAA Pacific Fleet At Seattle
S328 Pierce Transferred To the USS Intrepid Sea Air Space Museum in New York
S331 Davidson Sold Commercial to an Oil Company in Alaska
S591 Heck Awaiting Sale, NOAA Pacific Fleet At Seattle

USNS/MARAD

T-AGS-31 S.P. Lee Returned to USN on 1 Aug 1992 and Transferred to Mexico
AP 198 State of Maine Converted to a Test hulk, docked at Mobile, AL

Soviet Navy

T-112

T-112 was a minesweeper of the Soviet Navy during World War II and the Cold War. She had originally been built as USS Agent (AM-139), an Admirable-class minesweeper, for the United States Navy during World War II, but never saw active service in the U.S. Navy. Upon completion she was transferred to the Soviet Union under Lend-Lease as T-112; she was never returned to the United States. The ship was renamed several times in Soviet service and was finally abandoned in January 1991. Her hulk was still extant as of 10 June 2007. ecause of the Cold War, the U.S. Navy was unaware of the ship's status and the vessel remained on the American Naval Vessel Register until she was struck on 1 January 1983.
1992 she was discovered in USSR and returned to Suisun Bay Reserve Fleet still sporting her Soviet markings

[Mohoender]

That's from the 2.2 BYB. Given that any naval shipping of note is on the bottom by mid 1997 (barely six months into the war), I just can't see any mothballed ships being available before the strategic nuke strikes in November 1997. After then, there won't be the people, nor resources to do the job.


I agree but for once I based my idea on v.1;)

[Legbreaker]

Ok, hypothetically if the US was to somehow decide that recommissioning ships was something they needed to do before the war turned nuclear, and they were able to scrape up the resources needed to do the job from whatever was left just getting the troops mobilised, equiped and shipped over to their respective battlefields, what's to say the opposition can't do the same?
Do we really want to see yet another series of sea battles this time using 40+ year old rustbuckets which end with the same result - a lot of pointless deaths and everything on the bottom?
In my mind, it just doesn't make sense to refurbish much of anything especially since you completely unbalance the game world by doing so. It's no longer T2K, but "the US tromps all over everything" UNLESS you radically upscale and extend effective and widescale sea combat by invigorating ALL sides.

[dragoon500ly]

There is also something else to consider when bringing mothballed ships back into service. Many of these ships date to WWII/Korea and are very manpower intensive, something that the modern navy has moved away from.

Another factor to consider is the time and cost of refitting these ships. The best example is, of course, the recommissioning of the four Iowa-class Battleships.

The New Jersey (BB62) was commissioned 23 May 1943 and deactivated 30 June 1948. She was reactivated 21 Nov 1950 and deactivated 21 Aug 1957. She was reactivated on 6 April 1968 and deactivated again on 17 Dec 1969. She was reactivated again on 28 Dec 1982. She was refitted for each of her activations, losing her 20mm and most of her 40mm batteries for the Korean War, the remaining 40mm for the Vietnam War and then her final configuration (fitted with Tomahawk/Harpoon/Phalanx) for her "modern" deployment. Her cost for her latest refit was $332.7 million.

The Iowa (BB61) was commissioned 22 Feb 1943 and deactivated 23 Mar 1949. She was reactivated 25 Aug 1951 and deactivated again on 24 Feb 1958. Her final activation took place on 28 April 1984. Her refit cost came to $348.7 million.

The Missouri (BB63) was commissioned 11 June 1944 and she was deactivated on 26 Feb 1955. She was reactivated 10 May 1986. Her cost came to $473.3 million.

The Wisconsin (BB64) was commissioned 16 Apr 1944 and she was deactivated 1 July 1948. She was reactivated again on 3 May 1951 and deactivated 8 Mar 1958. She was reactivated on 1 Aug 1986. Cost for her refit came to $503.1 million.

As you can see, the longer the ship is out of commission, the more expensive her rebuild.

Going with accelerated production with the Sino-Soviet War and tensions with the Soviet Union, I really don't see a lot of the older (WWII/Korea/Vietnam-era) mothballed warships being brought back into service. It really would be a case of not enough return on the investment, not to mention recruiting and training sailors on equipment that really is old enough to draw Social Security.

[Legbreaker]

Something else to remember is that right up until the Germans stepped over the Polish border in late 1996, NOBODY was looking at having to fight a European war, and likely were very keen to stay out of any conflict they absolutely did not need to be in.
Construction and refurbishment of warships could have been seen by potential adversaries as a prelude to attack and may have invited a pre-emptive strike of some kind. Given that, and the immense cost involved, it just doesn't seem probable a large scale buildup would even have been considered, let alone put into practise.

This isn't to say a couple of new ships couldn't have been started - every nation is constantly updating vessels as a matter of course. However, activity outside this normal maintence of the fleet could be seen as very provocative in some circles.

[Mohoender]

I agree with all your objections but one :"It's no longer T2K, but "the US tromps all over everything""

I'm not the one who chose to have CA139 Salem as flagship of the US fleet in the Persian Gulf. Then, as I agree with everything you say and as I consider that won't be an isolated case, I assume that more ship had been put back into service (again with v1.0, with v2.2 they had been scrapped).

About naval battle involving 40+ year old ship that might not be so much the case. You simply forget that these ships have certainly not been put back on the sea to carry their original missions. They would probably carry out transport, landing, long range coastal patrol and escort missions for the transport ships (probably led by coast guards officers and manned by civilian sailors). I don't even consider that these ships still had their original weapons.

By the way, you still had countries using ships that were 50+ years old in the early 2000's.

[Mohoender]

Something else. When you read what you find in the USS Basilone website, you learn that she entered the FRAM program on July 1963 and work had been completed on April 1964. Therefore, in about 9 month and that is no minor modification taking place during peace time (even if it was the cold war). You can't make me believe that US naval industry in the early 1990's and in war time would no longer be that capable.

I tend to have older ships put back into commission while I divide the time to commission all ships ordered from 1994 to 1996 by two. IRL, the last Arleigh Burke destroyer to be commissioned by 1997 was DDG71 Ross. In T2K, iy would have at least been DDG82 Lassen and more porbably DDG84 Bulkeley. When it comes to the Nimitz-class, the last to be commissioned would be CVN75 Harry S Trumman. You can even expect to have a number of San Antonio being pressed into service before the nukes fall.

http://www.uss-basilone-dde-dd824.org/history.shtml

[ArmySGT.]

Are you playing Twilight 2000 or Harpoon?

[Legbreaker]

I'm not the one who chose to have CA139 Salem as flagship of the US fleet in the Persian Gulf.

Granted, the Salem is in the canon material, however I'd say it's the exception rather than the rule. It may be one of the only ships that was recommissioned and given the poor state of the fleet it's the flagship for, work probably wasn't completed before it was sent off to war - still, it floats and has a few guns so it's better than about 98% of the rest of the US navy...

By the way, you still had countries using ships that were 50+ years old in the early 2000's.

Too true, however virtually every one of them hadn't been sitting mothballed for much of that time but instead had seen constant use, and more importantly, continuing maintenance. Those that hadn't have been in the hands of 4th rate navies which barely rate the name.

[Mohoender]

As I said Leg I agree with your points but the ships in question might not have been refited for the US Navy in the first place but, as an exemple, for China. Then, with the evolution of the war they are taken over by US Navy.

About Mothballed ships you are also right and a certain Kanimbla class perfectly illustrate your point as far as I know at least.

[Legbreaker]

China? There's something I hadn't thought about, but I'm not convinced. The Soviet-China war looks to be mainly a land affair, although the Soviets may have tried implementing a naval blockade of Chinese ports. I can't see that working too well though as there's a number of overland options for supply routes into China from it's neighbours, many of which could be very happy to help throw mud in the Soviets eyes. The Soviet navy may be big, but it's hard to blockade an entire continent. At best I think they'd concentrate on the Chinese ports meaning that while supplies could still get in, they'd take weeks longer.

[LAW0306]

I sat down about 2 years ago with chico and Jason wiser and we spent a weekend on what ships would come back and why. I think Rae and Flamingo were on conferance calls at some time. I had alot of ships on the rolls ...this will be published under chico someday.

I drive by the NFR fleet here in hawaii once a week. I have talked to the Manager of the fleet. They say it will take about 3 months to come on line for most of the ships. Tuged over to ship yard. Manning is easy. About 30K to 40K sailors leave the US Navy a year. They have a 4 year contract as reserve, that gives me 120k to 160K men and women that could be back in uniform in a month. plus the old timers begging to get in. happens every war.

[Legbreaker]

...and then the war turns nuclear and NOBODY in the right mind will be found anywhere near a potential target...
I'm sure there would be plenty of volunteers in a conventional fight, but once the shit really hits the fan and areas the size of small countries start to glow in the dark, that supply of manpower will dwindle to a trickle. Desertions will be a massive problem and you can bet those who haven't yet been called up will be making it very hard for the military to find them for reactivation.
Besides, when you're talking 40+ year old ships, there will be a need for retraining of crew. This could be condensed down to a third (perhaps less) of peacetime, but it's still a bottleneck to overcome with reactivating ships.

And don't forget that if the US can reactivate ships and crews, there's little stopping the opposition from doing the exact same thing, perhaps even faster if they have less concern about training quality and small issues such as crew safety and comfort.

Even if the ships could be reactivated in 3 months, crewed and put to sea, we have the small issue of canon stating that the last major fleet in being was put on the bottom in mid 1997. That to me says right there that the best of the reactivated ships are absolutely sunk and it's only the ships which were deemed unimportant or too much trouble/expensive that are still sitting in their probably radioactive storage areas post nuke.

[Mohoender]

.
And don't forget that if the US can reactivate ships and crews, there's little stopping the opposition from doing the exact same thing, perhaps even faster if they have less concern about training quality and small issues such as crew safety and comfort.


Actually, they did. The Soviet destroyer in sattelite down is of an old type that was dcommissioning even before 1989 and the Riga-class frigates you find in the Caspian Flotilla had been, for the most part, decommissioned in the early 1980's.

I definitely agree with your point when things go nuclear and you might be right about things going too fast. Still its fun to have these old rusted bucket around.;)

[Legbreaker]

Actually, they did. The Soviet destroyer in sattelite down is of an old type that was dcommissioning even before 1989 and the Riga-class frigates you find in the Caspian Flotilla had been, for the most part, decommissioned in the early 1980's.

Well there you go then. My point is made that there doesn't need to be any real changes to canon for the outcome to be exactly the same - a balance of opposing forces, both beaten down into little more than a scorched and ash covered shadow of their prewar power.

There's simply no need to justify a US navy being stronger than it is in the books, as quite simply, that seriously unstablises the game world to the point of absurbity. Sure, those who are interested can play about with what ships were activated when, and how they reached their final watery graves, but the outcome must remain the same to keep the balance.

The same principle applies to ground and air forces. Make any significant changes and it's no longer T2K but something entirely different.

[LAW0306]

Once again.Its mine or who ever's game to make it! as you have said before its only a game what does reality have to do with it! If Mo wants more ships in his god bless him. if you want less god bless you. its only a game have fun. They do say Fleet right? That means Fleet. The united states had many numbered fleets...That means to me they operate at the task force level.like they do today. from our talks with the game designers they just did not have the raw numbers for all the ships and did not know what to do with them. They wanted a land centric game so they said the fleets are gone. so they made a simple decision for the game. no harm no foul. now that we know more about the ships (IE Internet) we flesh it out. if you want to use it cool. if not cool too. lets all just have fun. remember its just a game.

[Legbreaker]

Actually, I don't recall Mo ever saying anything about a fleet. He was I believe talking about individual ships in numbers insufficient to have a great impact on the balance of the world. He also brought up the existence of refurbished/recommissioned Soviet ships as well, as illustrated in Satellite Down, which would maintain the balance.

There's nothing to say some ships can't/weren't recommissioned, but care must be taken to avoid turning the whole thing into a one sided joke.

[Isochron]

Although most of the Spruance Class DDs were decommissioned and in real life disposed of in a permanent manner (mostly sank for target practice and weapons testing) that was around 94-96. If there had been heightend tensions starting with Able Archer then they would have kept most available for recommissioning, if needed.

The Spruance DDs were the same as the Tico Class cruisers except with no Aegis missile system and different launch systems. They carried 8 tomahawk missile.

Having served on one I can tell you they were a rock solid class of ship.

[Mohoender]

great impact

An impact, solely an impact. Nothing that overwhelming.:D

[Legbreaker]

Does anyone have any information on which Soviet bloc ships might be reactivated, or how quickly the Pact could pump out warships?
I'd have to say it seems more logical for the Soviets to start production sooner than anyone else given they're already at war with China. The Soviets also have a need to expand their navy to try and blockade all shipping to Chinese ports and their allies.
I can buy a swift and massive increase in the Soviet navy much more than I can any other nation on the planet given their earlier entry into hostilities.

[Mohoender]

Here is a good and viable source

http://russian-ships.info/eng/

However, you have to check every ship and try to cross reference what you find on it. Still, DOOSA and ships that have been given to the sailing clubs are the most readily available.

One thing is important to note and it is that most ship are small units including small frigates, corvettes, minewarfare and patrol boats.

The larger units would largely be discraded depend on wether or not the Kremlin allow them real financing. I would expect a number of destroyers to be returned to full duty: Kanin, Kildin and Kotlin classes but I'm not sure about the Sverdlov. It is true that the Soviet have been at war longer but I aslo think that they would prefer to focus on their newer ships and they were building plenty in the late 1980's.

I expect the aircraft carriers building program to be carried as planned in the 1980's, I expect more Slava, Udaloy, Sovremenyy, Neustrachimy, Gepard, Nanuchka, Tarantul and Pauk to be built. Same thing for the submarines.

You can also have the Matka hydrofoil entering full production to replace the aging Osa but I'm not convinced.

It will also depend of the game you play. With V1.0, tensions had been rising for some times before the war and funding obviously came. With v2.2, all the ships that were scrapped between 1987-1992 are indeed scrapped.

[Mohoender]

If that can help

These ships are given by fleet with their names but no pennant number and their location regarding the fleet is fairly accurate from what you can find out. When it comes to smaller ships (these with no name at all), there can be some more around. Of course, this is what could be, not what it is. To note, all these ships were about 10 years younger than the US destroyers that had gone through the FRAM program.

Additional ships might exist as well from, for example, the Osa-class or various types of torpedo boats. For ships that were in the process of decommissioning, I simply consider that the process ended. Kynda and Kresta I might not have been decommissioned at all. I didn't include the surviving Skoryy-class destroyers but a handful might still be around. I have a tendency to have them among the raiders sent to the Atlantic (as the Smolnyy training ships) for two reason: they carry a fair amount of gun rounds and you don't spare much valuable ships to chase cargo and tankers when 130mm and 76mm rounds can do the job just fine... and if the crews complain a bit: "Na Rodinia Tavarischi vi Geroy Sovyetskogo Soyuza"

Surviving Sverdlov-class would probably add the weapon systems still on display with the Mikhail Kutuzov (4 to 6 30mm AD systems and 2 SA-4 AD systems).

Submarines type are incomplete but the number of whiskey also include the surviving Zulu-class.

North Fleet:
- Cruiser “Vice-Admiral Drozd” (Kresta I-class)
- Cruiser “Alexandr Nevskiy” (Sverdlov-class)
- Cruiser “Murmansk”
- Destroyer “Gremyashchiy” (Kanin-class)
- Destroyer “Derzkiy”
- Destroyer “Boykiy”
- Destroyer “Zorkiy”
- Destroyer “Nesokurshimyy” (Kotlin-class)
- Destroyer “Spokoynyy”
- Destroyer “Skromnyy”
- 6 Riga-class Frigates
- 10 Poti-class Corvettes
- 4 Kronshtadt-class Corvettes
- 2 T43-class Seagoing Minesweepers

Baltic Fleet
- Cruiser “Admiral Zozulya” (Kresta I-class)
- Cruiser “Grozny” (Kynda-class)
- Cruiser “Sverdlov” (Sverdlov-class)
- Destroyer "Prozorlivyy" (Kildin-class)
- Destroyer “Nastoychivyy” (Kotlin-class)
- Destroyer “Blagorodnyy”
- Destroyer “Spehnyy”
- Destroyer “Svetlyy”
- 6 Riga-class Frigates
- 3 SO1-class Corvettes
- 12 Poti-class Corvettes
- 2 Kronshtadt-class Corvettes
- 4 T43-class Seagoing Minesweepers
- 14 Whiskey-class SSK

Pacific Fleet
- Cruiser “Sevastopol” (Kresta I-class)
- Cruiser “Vladivostok”
- Cruiser “Admiral Fokin” (Kynda-class)
- Cruiser “Riga”
- Cruiser “Admiral Senyavin” (Sverdlov-class)
- Cruiser “Alexandr Suvorov”
- Destroyer “Gnevnyy” (Kanin-class)
- Destroyer “Upornyy”
- Destroyer “Vyzyvayushchiy” (Kotlin-class)
- Destroyer “Vozbuzhdennyy”
- Destroyer “Vyderzhannyy”
- Destroyer “Skrytnyy”
- Destroyer “Burlivyy”
- 5 Riga-class Frigates
- 18 Whiskey-class SSK

Black Sea Fleet
- Cruiser “Admiral Golovko” (Kynda-class)
- Cruiser “Mikhail Kutuzov” (Sverdlov-class)
- Cruiser “Zhdanov”
- Destroyer "Bedovyy" (Kildin-class)
- Destroyer "Neulovimyy"
- Destroyer “Nakhodchivyy” (Kotlin-class)
- Destroyer “Sveduschiy”
- Destroyer “Plamennyy”
- 5 Riga-class Frigates
- 11 Poti-class Corvettes
- 1 Kronshtadt-class Corvette
- 2 T43-class Seagoing Minesweepers
- 14 Whiskey-class SSK

Caspian Sea Flotilla
- 3 Riga-class Frigates
- 1 Kronshtadt-class Corvette
- 4 T43-class Seagoing Minesweepers

[Legbreaker]

So basically you're looking at a fairly significant number of vessels, many of which are actually newer than the US ships available for recommissioning and since the Soviets have a reputation for simple, rugged designs which can be churned out fairly quickly with little care for the wellbeing of neither workers or crew....
Added in the head start the Soviets undoubtedly have because of the war with China and it's no real surprise the US and every other navy is shattered by mid 1997.

[Isochron]

I would expect the NATO navies are in better shape than the Soviet Navy, the NATO countries have more larger navies than the Eastern Block.

[Legbreaker]

And this is borne out in the books, but even after the Pact fleets are gone, they were still able to destroy Nato's remaining naval forces off the coast of Norway.

How did they manage that? Probably by using all those recommissioned and new ships they had on the go because of the Chinese war. They were able to use their greater than IRL navy to decimate the western forces before the final decisive encounter in June 1997. After that date you're left with both sides able to field little more than individual ships here and there all suffering heavy battle damage which post November simply cannot be repaired fully.

In the period between June and November I see every last ship able to move under it's own power being needed at sea, even if damaged, to escort supply convoys across the Atlantic - there's simply no choice but to keep them out and active as there's just no other ships still floating.

As was shown by the German U-Boats in WWII, it doesn't take much to inflict catastrophic losses on unescorted civilian freighters, which is one of the big reasons why western navies are so strong compared to their expected cold war adversaries.

[Raellus]

If the Soviet Navy didn't have any significant battle groups left against which to retaliate, they might have resorted to taking out USN carrier task forces with tac-nukes. That would even things up pretty fast...

I prefer to think that the Soviets had a couple of genius admirals who were able to come up with some tricks that helped the Soviet navy come up with the above result using more conventional means. I like the scenarios Larry Bond and Tom Clancy dreamt up for Red Storm Rising.

[Legbreaker]

I'm all for using nukes, however with the first of them not used until the 9th of July 1997 and the Nato fleet destroyed 3-4 weeks earlier in mid June 1997.... :(

[Panther Al]

If the Soviet Navy didn't have any significant battle groups left against which to retaliate, they might have resorted to taking out USN carrier task forces with tac-nukes. That would even things up pretty fast...

I prefer to think that the Soviets had a couple of genius admirals who were able to come up with some tricks that helped the Soviet navy come up with the above result using more conventional means. I like the scenarios Larry Bond and Tom Clancy dreamt up for Red Storm Rising.

I always felt that the Soviet Navel Leadership was more than able to come up with such plans.

But then, from what I have read (A great deal, but I am by no means a subject matter expert) the Soviet Navy an attritional force: it can be best summed up (In a overly simplistic fashion) of using a fire hose to stop an avalanche. Its possible: Use a big enough hose (Quality of Ships) with enough water (Quantity of Ships) handled by someone that has some talent (Quality of Leadership) you can actually do so. The question is: Did they meet the three challenges?

[Legbreaker]

Well, if we use canon, they apparently did. How else can it be explained that the total assembled navies of Nato were destroyed without them resorting to nukes? It obviously cost them everything to do it, but once the last effective naval force was on the bottom, what real use would they have for a navy besides the usual coastal patrols, etc?
Sure it would be nice to have warships and landing craft, but it's not absolutely VITAL if there's no effective opposing force.

[Raellus]

Well, if we use canon, they apparently did. How else can it be explained that the total assembled navies of Nato were destroyed without them resorting to nukes? It obviously cost them everything to do it, but once the last effective naval force was on the bottom, what real use would they have for a navy besides the usual coastal patrols, etc?
Sure it would be nice to have warships and landing craft, but it's not absolutely VITAL if there's no effective opposing force.

Does canon specifically state that no naval nukes are used against NATO sea forces? I don't recall that it does. That said, I don't think it's necessary as far as explaining NATO's naval losses.

If the Soviets could sucker major NATO naval forces closer to land- especially land controlled by the USSR (like NW Norway and/or the Kola Penninsula) they could reduce the NATO navies' sensor advantage and overwhelm them with firepower.

According to canon, there's a major battle in the Norwegian Sea, is there not? A major Soviet naval sortie (two or three battle groups along with fast attack missile boats) and Naval air forces launching from land bases could do a lot of damage before hitting the bottom themselves.

[Legbreaker]

Does canon specifically state that no naval nukes are used against NATO sea forces?
Not exactly, but close enough:
On July 9th, with advanced elements of the 1st German Army on Soviet soil, the Soviets begin using tactical nuclear weapons.
It's a very specific date for a VERY important event in history.
The 9th of July, 1997 is the day the war turned nuclear and hell flung open it's doors.

[Raellus]

Not exactly, but close enough:

It's a very specific date for a VERY important event in history.
The 9th of July, 1997 is the day the war turned nuclear and hell flung open it's doors.

OK, but couldn't naval nukes have been used after this date? Does canon state that the Soviet and NATO navies were pretty much sunk (pardon the bad pun) before July 9th, 1997?

[Matt Wiser]

Canon only deals with the Naval War in the North Atlantic/Norweigan Sea/Kola areas, except for TF 76 in the PG. No info at all about the Pacific, Med, etc. On the old board, I had quite a lot on the naval war, and Antenna should still have some of that on his board. Having three or four surviving carriers and amphibious assault ships, some cruisers and destroyers, etc. is a lot more realistic, IMHO. There's no way that the entire fleets of both the USN and the Soviet Navy would be sunk prior to TDM. And that's surface forces. There'd be more subs surviving than surface ships, including boomers, IMHO.

[Mohoender]

The first problem might simply come from general confusion in canon materials regarding that matter. Indeed, it states that by mid-June the last major fleet-in-being in the world has been shattered (meaning NATO) but that is far from answering everything (considering v1.0 and even less with v2.2).

1) Most of the Soviet Northern Fleet was destroyed by late 1996. At most by mid-June 1997, they had 1 aircraft carrier, 1 battlecruiser, 2 guigded missiles cruisers, 7 destroyers and 8 frigates left to their Northern Fleet but a large number of coastal ships and submarines.
2) NATO made an unforgiving mistake by moving most of its fleet North. Therefore, allowing the Soviets to use all that they have left to their best effects.
3) What of the submarines? At the time the Soviets had something between 300-400 (IRL) and as they had been at war for over a year, they had produce more.
4) On June 27th (1-2 weeks later), NATO provides a strong covering force to the Mediterranean convoys but these are defeated by light fleet elements of the Greek Navy.
5) What has happened to the Far East and Indian Ocean? Iran is on US side and US has no opposing fleet in the Persian Gulf.

Another problem simply comes from the fact that the game is land oriented and the authors have not done much work on naval aspects. However, it becomes important with game developments and further inconsistencies.

Satellite down: The Nuclear Cruiser Virginia leading TF115 (1 cruiser and 5 destroyers including at least 1 Forrest Sherman) is defeated by a force 6 soviet destroyers in 1999????? Ok the Soviet had a lucky strike on Virginia but TF115 not capable of holding its own??? As much as I don't underestimate Soviet capabilities, I don't understand how that can be possible. Even less with 80% of the Soviet Fleet at the bottom of the Sea by late 1996. Six soviet destroyers is all that should be left to USSR in 1997 and to do such major damages, the fleet should have been made almost entirely of Sovremenny-class destroyers.

Still, I remind you that in this book the game states that US had 32 nuclear guided-missile cruisers stationed around the world (WOW!!). IRL 9 had been commissioned. V1.0 assumes clearly that the world navies had been expended to a large extend before the Twilight War. Therefore, assuming RL figures to the game might not be entirely accurate.

RDF has quite a viable if small fleet being described and the Soviet Caspian Flotilla as given if not at full streength remains substantial but landlocked. Why does it remain in the Caspian Sea where it is of no use while it could have been tranfered to the Black Sea?

Going Home can't be possible with some remnant of the naval forces

[Legbreaker]

OK, but couldn't naval nukes have been used after this date? Does canon state that the Soviet and NATO navies were pretty much sunk (pardon the bad pun) before July 9th, 1997?

Absolutely! But there doesn't appear to be the need for naval nukes after June 97. There's just not a lot of decent targets left.
As for carriers left in other theatres, I don't buy it. Europe is the main stage, Europe is where the "big push" is taking place with Korea and the middle east as sideshows. There's almost no reason why the various carriers and their supporting fleets would stay away from the "Norwegian adventure" if the Soviet fleets elsewhere were believed to be neutralised (as seems to be indicated in canon).

The Nato fleet in my understanding was sunk by "superior/sneaky" Soviet tactics in the tight confines of the area. The remnants of Naval aviation, shore batteries, fast torpedo boats, missiles and even a few old subs, used well would be more than enough to massacre the Nato ships if they were asleep at the wheel thinking all they needed to do was provided shore bombardment for the landing forces they were escorting at the time. This is especially likely if in the previous six months of the war, the Soviet subs had been efficiently sinking western vessels and whittled the remaining fleet down. Given that earlier actions may have eliminated, or at least reduced the anti-air capabilities of the ships involved through sinking's, damage, or simply lack of ammo for the CIWS, it's conceivable the Soviet air assets would have a very large impact (as per canon).

It also appears the last engagement against Soviet naval forces was about two months earlier (late spring) after what can only be described as a furious running series of battles, it's understandable that Nato crews may have relaxed their guard. This makes even more sense given the overwhelming success the land forces were having on almost all fronts - it's quite believable everyone thought the end of the war was in sight, which can only be called a fatal mistake.

What is a "major fleet" anyway. Does it have to have a carrier at it's heart and consist of 20 or more other ships? Or could it be little more than a cruiser and 3-4 destroyers? Canon states the "last major fleet in being" was "shattered". This doesn't necessarily mean sunk either, but potentially could mean damaged to the point of scuttling or those ships still afloat could need 12 months in dry dock - something that doesn't happen with the nukes starting shortly after.

[Legbreaker]

4) On June 27th (1-2 weeks later), NATO provides a strong covering force to the Mediterranean convoys but these are defeated by light fleet elements of the Greek Navy.
Obviously can't have been all that strong then, or perhaps they were caught without room to manoeuvre?

5) What has happened to the Far East and Indian Ocean? Iran is on US side and US has no opposing fleet in the Persian Gulf.
Exactly. Why would the US need a fleet of any real power in the area? What we see in RDF Sourcebook has to be almost the entirety of that fleet.

Satellite down: The Nuclear Cruiser Virginia leading TF115 (1 cruiser and 5 destroyers including at least 1 Forrest Sherman) is defeated by a force 6 soviet destroyers in 1999????? Ok the Soviet had a lucky strike on Virginia but TF115 not capable of holding its own??? As much as I don't underestimate Soviet capabilities, I don't understand how that can be possible. Even less with 80% of the Soviet Fleet at the bottom of the Sea by late 1996. Six soviet destroyers is all that should be left to USSR in 1997 and to do such major damages, the fleet should have been made almost entirely of Sovremenny-class destroyers.
My reading is the six soviet ships were all that were available at the time in the Pacific. It's possible other ships exist around the globe in varying states of readiness either short on fuel, ammunition, crew or stuck in port with damage they can't get repaired.
It's also very likely TF115 was also damaged/short on ammo/lacking crew/etc


Going Home can't be possible with some remnant of the naval forces
Which is shown by the USS John Hancock being the flagship. We also know the Tarawa was in the Baltic in Spring 2000 (from the aviation book - Osprey colour plate), but logic has it out of action in some way by October/November. If it wasn't, there's no logical reason it wouldn't have been the flagship.

[Mohoender]

perhaps they were caught without room to manoeuvre?


About sure, the sea there is narrow with drifting ice at some points and batteries of coastal defense missiles firing in hanger. Sending carriers there is stupid at best. I hoped the admirals in charge were killed and if not, they should have been court marshalled. That move matches some of the most stupid ones in naval history: Trafalgar (french side) or the Spanish grand armada to England.


My reading is the six soviet ships were all that were available at the time in the Pacific. It's possible other ships exist around the globe in varying states of readiness either short on fuel, ammunition, crew or stuck in port with damage they can't get repaired.
It's also very likely TF115 was also damaged/short on ammo/lacking crew/etc


Atlantic, they were in the Atlantic. Then, you're right, the TF had been reduced to Virginia and 2 ships.


Which is shown by the USS John Hancock being the flagship. We also know the Tarawa was in the Baltic in Spring 2000 (from the aviation book - Osprey colour plate), but logic has it out of action in some way by October/November. If it wasn't, there's no logical reason it wouldn't have been the flagship.

Good point

[Targan]

Atlantic, they were in the Atlantic. Then, you're right, the TF had been reduced to Virginia and 2 ships.

If we're talking about the engagement that resulted in USS Virginia's grounding prior to Satellite Down then it was the Pacific.

The direction this thread has taken is giving me wracking spasms of deja vu. The last time we got into a throw down, stand up fight about this topic a whole lot of valued forum members threw up their hands and walked away. Some are yet to return. Do we really need to go through that again?

Those who participated in the original 'debates' are well aware of one anothers' positions. The new members can have a look at the thread map and the archives if they want to bring themselves up to speed.

I for one still have strong opinions on these matters but I don't have the heart to voice them again. I still hold some hope that Chico et al will return to these forums some day.

[kato13]

I still hold some hope that Chico et al will return to these forums some day.

This thread (solely due to one poster) has me literally counting the days until I never have to look at this forum again.

[Legbreaker]

Do we really need to go through that again?


I'm not seeing anything like that at all, just an honest, open and constructive discussion which is explaining a lot about what happened to the naval forces world wide. Sure there's the possibility of people getting upset, but that's possible about ANY topic.
Mind you, I can't understand why anyone would get upset about a game... :confused:

[Bluedwarf]

Speaking of reactivating old ships, I came across an gem that the HMS Victory, predating the United States, is still in commission! Given the technology left, it could well be one of the last full strength warships, and could certainly make a very interesting scenario, given that it would be one of the few vessels that would not be short of ammunition (creating gunpowder of the sort it could use is not exactly rocket science, given I know some high school kids who used to do it!)

The old wooden vessels would not be suseptible to rust, like the lighter GRP and Aluminium hulls of many smaller craft. But historically pressing civilian craft into service has always occurred in massive numbers whenever war broke out, and many of these vessels have been equally as effective as dilapdated warships, as the example above makes clear.

With regards to the Caspian fleet being stuck, that would only apply to the larger vessels, with the river system in spring and summer enabling many FACs and even some frigates access to the Baltics and the North Sea.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, the Soviet Navy was primarily focused on defence, and so they never planned on major assaults far from home. Hence, the destruction of the Northern Nato fleet at a time when they had few major surface combatants is entirely in line with the way they would prepare for war. Ie mines, aircraft and shore batteries as previously mentioned could be expected to be devestating, because that is what they were built and trained for. They have been slow to develop the surface combatants because, in their philosophy, that is not the most significant part of their Naval Defence strategy, unlike the west. They had huge numbers of missile weilding vessels that were transportable over land that would be devestating against the older vessels, as the Israelis discovered when a now dated Osa class vessel (a 165t rail transportable vessel of which the Soviets built around 200 in the early 80's) sank an updated Israeli destroyer in the 6 day war. China had about 120 of these as well, btw. Their punch is only as dated as the missiles they launched.

Interestingly, in 1984, USSR had 80 Whiskey class subs in reserve, plus another 50 in service, having been replaced by Foxtrot class vessels. These vessels, launched in the 1950's, would certainly have been reactivated, though how many would have actually been useable may be another question. But given warning it is very conceiveable they could all be made operational, though unlikely they would have been grouped together with any fleet as such.

While many of their capital ships are dated, the 12 Sverdlov class gun cruisers vessels would likely be more serious threats due to the fact that they used boilers to drive steam turbines and guns instead of missiles. While they would have had a harder time surviving initially, those that did would serve better in a lower tech post-nuke world that the more deadly but more tech-dependant vessels. Similar to the Iowa, Brooklyn, Ceylon and De Ruyter classes of vessels (USA, USA, UK and Netherlands respectively). But it is surviving the initial years that would be the problem. Looking at the age of vessels in service on both sides, it is unlikely that any that were not in reserves would be better than civilian vessels, with the latter probably being preferable due to the better conditions.

[dragoon500ly]

source material from the 3rd and 4th Editions, Guide to the Soviet Navy.

To put it simply, the shipbuilding capacity of the Soviet Union is impressive. The USSR has 20 major shipyards (one with more than 2,000 full-time employees) compared to 16 for the US, as well as 700+ smaller shipyards. Four of these shipyards build only warships: Severodvinsk (submarines); Kaliningrad (destroyers and amphibious warships); Petrovskiy (small combatants) and the Sudomeky portion of the Leningrad Admiralty Association (submarines). These yards employee some 215,000 workers (this is considered to be the low estimate by Western intelligence agencies of the 1985-1990 period).

The Soviets build some 6 million deadweight tons (a supertanker is roughly 100,000 DWT by the way) of merchant shipping in the period 1986-1990 with another 4.2 million deadweight tons produced by shipyards in Finalnd, Germany and Poland (all purchased by the USSR).

Now, deadweight tonnage is not the same as full load displacement tonnage, but any way you cut it, 10.2 million tons is a lot of hulls!

[Mohoender]

If we're talking about the engagement that resulted in USS Virginia's grounding prior to Satellite Down then it was the Pacific.


My mistake, I have been tired lately and miss-read the stuff about ten times.:o

[Isochron]

With both sides having heavy losses in the number of ships, either side could have used nukes on ships (which I doubt due to strategic importance) or used aircraft launched Air to Ship missiles (much more likely). Both sides had very effective missiles.

[Mohoender]

With both sides having heavy losses in the number of ships, either side could have used nukes on ships (which I doubt due to strategic importance) or used aircraft launched Air to Ship missiles (much more likely). Both sides had very effective missiles.

In 1995 the US still had more than 10000 nuclear warheads and the Soviets had a little under 35000. With Twilight they would more probably have maintained their pre-Berlin Wall level of 20000 (US) and 40000 (USSR) and you can expect both sides to built a few more before 1997. I'm not sure that strategic considerations come into the pictures with such numbers as two countries take nukes for candies;).

Such considerations would only had been for UK, France and China.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Tangentially to this, I had always thought that post 2001 (like around 2003, perhaps) the US Military would start giving thought to putting the Navy back together as best they could around surviving ships (John Hancock, City of Corpus Christi, and possibly other, unmentioned ones) and pulling "display" or "museum" vessels out for use.

Not for use in the actual Twilight War itself, mind you, but as part of the reconstruction effort.

The idea of A1 Skyraiders recovered from Davis Monthan AFB flying off the deck of the re-floated Intrepid while wacky and probably wholly impossible is one that makes me smile.

[Legbreaker]

...the US Military would start giving thought to putting the Navy back together as best they could around surviving ships (John Hancock, City of Corpus Christi, and possibly other, unmentioned ones) and pulling "display" or "museum" vessels out for use.

That's going to happen world wide I would think as resources become available. You might even see a few conflicts between Milgov and Civgov over who actually owns grounded or abandonned vessels of all types.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Hang on a tick; isn't there a Carrier Battle Group still alive and well in the Gulf per the RDF? The Carl Vinson and a few others at least. That's a pretty big stick all things considered.

[Legbreaker]

Hang on a tick; isn't there a Carrier Battle Group still alive and well in the Gulf per the RDF? The Carl Vinson and a few others at least.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a full blown carrier group, nor that they're well. My understanding is the assault carrier at the heart of it all is immobilised from battle damage, and most of the other ships aren't much better off. Nothing 12 months in a decent shipyard can't fix, if only one was available....

[Raellus]

With both sides having heavy losses in the number of ships, either side could have used nukes on ships (which I doubt due to strategic importance) or used aircraft launched Air to Ship missiles (much more likely). Both sides had very effective missiles.

There are several countermeasures for conventional anti-ship missiles. Some believe (I'm not among them) that just a couple of Tico class guided missile cruisers could defeat almost any ASM threat to a supercarrier. As for nukes, there are several Soviet ASMs designed to carrier low-yield nuclear payloads expressly for the purpose of taking out a US carrier group. As Mo pointed out, there were literally thousands of warheads out there on both sides so there'd really be no reason to skimp should the need arise.

Once again, I'm not arguing that the Soviets needed to resort to nukes to cause heavy NATO naval casualties, but it is a viable alternative explanation for the de facto destruction of NATO naval power in the N. Atlantic.

[boogiedowndonovan]

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a full blown carrier group, nor that they're well. My understanding is the assault carrier at the heart of it all is immobilised from battle damage, and most of the other ships aren't much better off. Nothing 12 months in a decent shipyard can't fix, if only one was available....

You guys are confusing canon with some of the Great Matt W's posts.

Canon RDF sourcebook has the assault carrier Belleau Wood LHA 3 functional as part of TF 76.

The Great Matt W posted an RDF orbat previously, I couldn't find it, but I found this in the archives.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2090

"The carrier immobilized at Muscat, Oman is USS Independence (CV-62) with both torpedo damage and ASM damage. If a shipyard with supertanker size dry-dock was available, it would take 18 months of repairs to get her seaworthy. A caretaker crew is aboard, but most have been reassigned to other 5th FLT ships in the Gulf. "

[Matt Wiser]

And CVW-10 was her air wing; they're now based at Sheikh Isa AB, Bahrain.

I'll see if I can't dig out some of my old Naval stuff: Jason and his team found it mighty useful-they didn't use all of it, but they found much of it to be of value. They did have some surviving carriers-they may be moored 90% of the time, but there were four surviving carriers. (a fifth was docked in Bremerton with damage too serious to repair with resources at hand)

Personally, there would've been a lot more surviving ships, and not just anchored someplace. Remaining SSNs and Boomers would still be sailing on occasion, for example.

[Legbreaker]

You guys are confusing canon with some of the Great Matt W's posts.

Huh? So we are! :confused:
The Belleau Wood however isn't a full blown carrier, but instead only operates helicopters and Harriers. I cannot find any reference to the Tarawa class being equipped with a catapult which puts almost all fixed wing aircraft out of consideration (the OV-10 Bronco, which was transferred from the Navy to the Marines and then retired in 1995 being the only listed exception).
Even so, it's unlikely the ships would see much use since there's a decided lack of resupply of important items such as missiles, parts, and conventional ammunition.

[Olefin]

Ok lets go with Canon

USN ships still active and part of MilGov

RDF - a missile cruiser, a gun cruiser, several frigates

Kenya - a missile cruiser, several destroyers and frigates - per Frank Frey from his notes for the unpublished Lions in Twilight module

Troubled Waters - John Hancock and three Forest Sherman DD's plus a bunch of smaller vessels

Last Submarine - SSN

Naval and Aviation book - USS Tarawa

and since Korea was never discussed in a canon module but its assume those guys didnt swim there you can bet there is a task force there too

And the ships that brought the men to the RDF didnt transit the Med without escort - thats how you throw away 6000 men's lives - so that means more ships brought them there past the French and any Italian or Greek ships

oh and why wasnt Tarawa the command ship in Going Home - how about as simple as the skipper of the John Hancock was superior to him as to time in rank and thus would be the Task Force Commander

[Targan]

oh and why wasnt Tarawa the command ship in Going Home - how about as simple as the skipper of the John Hancock was superior to him as to time in rank and thus would be the Task Force Commander

I thought that even when a fleet or task force commander is aboard a given vessel, that vessel will still have it's own captain. And the Tarawa is far, far better suited to the role of command ship, surely? In any case, at least some of the surface combatants escorting the Omega fleet back to the US must have crossed the Atlantic to Bremerhaven prior to the Omega fleet being assembled. I'd be amazed if MilGov didn't have at least one admiral or rear admiral available either already in Germany or at Norfolk and available to cross the Atlantic prior to the Omega fleet's assembly, ready and very much willing to command the Omega fleet.

Following ideas previously put forward by others on this forum, I've been tending towards the Tarawa being grounded and semi or non-functional somewhere along the Polish or Baltic coast. However I don't think it would be out of the question for the Tarawa to have been capable of being refloated and towed back to friendly waters but not being in a suitable condition for an Atlantic crossing with the Omega fleet. IIRC many of the remaining US forces in the UK made their own return to the CONUS post-Omega. Perhaps by then the Tarawa could have undergone sufficient repair and refit in a UK harbour to be the flagship for that second, mini-Omega?

[Olefin]

Or you could have Tarawa not sunken but have taken significant damage to where she wouldnt be useful for the command ship - i.e. her radios, sensors, etc.. could be out and she is basically unable to exercise command functions outside of using signal flags.

That happened during WWII when ships took damage to where they were still operable but where they couldnt exercise command anymore - for instance San Francisco after she got pounded at Guadalcanal - still afloat but she was in no shape to be the command ship anymore

There are no details on who commanded the effort - and if there wasnt a seperate task force commander present then the senior naval officer present would take over as Task Force Commander - so if its the Captain of the Hancock then he is it. (all it takes is for him to be one day senior to everyone else and he would have command fall to him)

Plus having Tarawa present allows the US to evac helicopters and other equipment that divisions have been hauling around per canon and does it without any disruption of the canon (no one, no matter how partisan one way or another is going to say that Tarawa is even a tenth as capable as a Nimitz class nuclear carrier and that her still being in the USN means the US is now ruling the waves)

And it would go to also saying why the Marines got stranded - i.e. Tarawa was needed elsewhere

and you would think if Tarawa had been lost or grounded, given how the handbooks were written, it would have mentioned her loss so soon after the picture was taken

thus no matter how much Legbreaker wants her sunk, she most likely was part of Omega

[Rainbow Six]

With regards to canon, wasn't at least one US Coast Guard ship mentioned in Rifle River? (Yes, I know technically that wouldn't be part of the US Navy :))

Also it's been years since I read Satellite Down so I can't remember if the USS Virginia was on its own or was part of a small group of ships? Didn't they get into a fight with some Soviet warships? Is the Virginia listed as the only survivor?

An escort for the ships going to the Middle East makes sense.

I'm not convinced about Korea...there would certainly have been a task force there at some point in time, but how much of it would be left by 2000 is probably debatable.

Targan, I could be mistaken here (I'm at work at the moment so all of the above is from memory) but I think the US personnel in the UK were uplifted at the same time as the main Omega evacuation - I think there is reference in the Survivor's Guide to the UK to one or more of the Omega ships making a stop off in the UK to pick up US personnel.

[Olefin]

Yes you are right about the stop in the UK - its also mentioned in Troubled Waters about the Omega UK evacuation

There is a good chance that whatever ships are in Korea are still there - short of fuel so they cant make the haul home but with enough fuel so that they can still operate around the Korean peninsula and the Sea of Japan.

So they are still effective but only locally. Now get some fuel there from the RDF or Kenya and that would change.

(i.e. Japan in late WWII didnt have the fuel to send ships to Singapore anymore but they had enough for ops to Pusan and back - so similar situation here.)

Virginia had several ships with her but they were all lost in the firefight with the Russian task group that led to her being beached.

From how its described they were the last USN ships active off the West Coast - and its a long way from the West Coast to Korea.

If you are interested Rainbow I can put up the relevant passage from Satellite Down showing that.

[Targan]

Or you could have Tarawa not sunken but have taken significant damage to where she wouldnt be useful for the command ship - i.e. her radios, sensors, etc.. could be out and she is basically unable to exercise command functions outside of using signal flags.Fair point.

There are no details on who commanded the effort - and if there wasnt a seperate task force commander present then the senior naval officer present would take over as Task Force Commander - so if its the Captain of the Hancock then he is it. (all it takes is for him to be one day senior to everyone else and he would have command fall to him)All true but seriously, given the enormous importance of the operation, MilGov couldn't come up with a single admiral or rear admiral to command the fleet? It just beggars belief.

Plus having Tarawa present allows the US to evac helicopters and other equipment that divisions have been hauling around per canon and does it without any disruption of the canon.Again, all true but not having the Tarawa present doesn't mean the US can't evac helicopters and other equipment with the Omega fleet. There would definitely be one or more (almost certainly more) ro-ro vessels in the fleet, and many cargo vessels are fully capable of having helicopters landed on them (many have one or more of their cargo hold hatches specially reinforced for exactly that purpose). And you'll note from other posts I've made that I'm not opposed to the Tarawa being once again in operation with the USN post-Omega. I just regard it has highly unlikely that the Tarawa was with the Omega fleet and didn't rate a single mention in Going Home.

and you would think if Tarawa had been lost or grounded, given how the handbooks were written, it would have mentioned her loss so soon after the picture was takenYou would think that if the Tarawa was among the ships sailing with the Omega fleet it would have been mentioned in Going Home. Seriously, specifically naming the John Hancock as being present and casually omitting any mention of the Tarawa being in the same fleet? I don't buy it.

thus no matter how much Legbreaker wants her sunk, she most likely was part of OmegaI'm happy to admit that Leg and I have quite similar views in many areas of T2K. I'm also happy that you've joined the forum, Olefin, you have already stimulated much interesting discussion since joining. But I'd advise against buying into some of the old disputes that caused a great deal of pain around here (and led to the departure from active participation of the creator, founder and administrator of this forum). I don't think it's a fair characterisation of Leg's views to suggest that he vehemently advocates the sinking of the Tarawa. As I recall, the idea that the Tarawa was beached or grounded somewhere along the Polish coast during 2000 was widely accepted as a reasonable possibility by many members of this forum. As it happens, Leg and I subscribed to that view. Long story short, I disagree that the Tarawa being part of the Omega fleet was "most likely". I agree that it's possible though.

With regards to canon, wasn't at least one US Coast Guard ship mentioned in Rifle River? (Yes, I know technically that wouldn't be part of the US Navy )That would be the Chilula, WMEC-153, a Cherokee class medium endurance cutter. And for all intents and purposes, during the Twilight War most USCG ships were USN ships. Those USCG assets listed in Rifle River as being under the direct command of Rear Admiral Nils Holsgirder are examples of USCG vessels that basically aren't USN vessels by 2000.

Also it's been years since I read Satellite Down so I can't remember if the USS Virginia was on its own or was part of a small group of ships? Didn't they get into a fight with some Soviet warships? Is the Virginia listed as the only survivor?All of the other vessels in the USS Virginia's battle group were sunk in combat.

I'm not convinced about Korea...there would certainly have been a task force there at some point in time, but how much of it would be left by 2000 is probably debatable.I agree.

Targan, I could be mistaken here (I'm at work at the moment so all of the above is from memory) but I think the US personnel in the UK were uplifted at the same time as the main Omega evacuation - I think there is reference in the Survivor's Guide to the UK to one or more of the Omega ships making a stop off in the UK to pick up US personnel.Now that you mention it I think I recall that too. I don't think the whole Omega fleet made a stopover though. Perhaps the Omega Fleet split at that point, with the main TF crossing directly and several sub-fleets sailing separately, one to pick up US troops in the UK, another sailing for the Med and on to the RDF and another heading to Africa to reinforce US forces there.

[Targan]

There is a good chance that whatever ships are in Korea are still there - short of fuel so they cant make the haul home but with enough fuel so that they can still operate around the Korean peninsula and the Sea of Japan.

So they are still effective but only locally. Now get some fuel there from the RDF or Kenya and that would change.
That's a possibility. I could be convinced either way. The Korean AO is one area that we've had few discussions about on this forum and I'd enjoy hearings everyone's ideas on it. Definitely a theater that deserved more attention than GDW gave it.

[Olefin]

I agree with you there - same with Yugoslavia - besides a few mentions in a couple of modules and the US Army Guide its an empty page as to the original version of the game

I have been thinking that some fan modules may be what is needed there for sure.

[Legbreaker]

If the Tarawa was still floating, and able to move under it's own power, it absolutely would have been the flagship, even if it's radios, radar, etc was destroyed. It doesn't take much to move a few radios aboard and position some radar vehicles on deck. The ship itself has way too much flexibility, even damaged, to ignore.
So it's far more likely it was out of commission in the latter half of 2000 than passed over in favour of an old destroyer.
If it was floating and useful, the US XI Corps wouldn't be cut off and could have been withdrawn - provided there were still landing craft left over from the earlier offensive to take the troops and their equipment off the beaches (there's no suitable ports between Germany and Gdansk).

[Rainbow Six]

A thought occurs to me re: the Tarawa. I don't think it's been mentioned before - apologies if it has and / or I'm stating the obvious.

Going Home is part of the T2K V1 chronology

The Nautical / Aviation Guide is part of the T2K V2x chronology

They are essentially two different timelines (albeit from the summer of 1997 onwards the differences are limited).

Its possible that in the v1 timeline the USS Tarawa may have been sunk long before the summer of 2000.

We know that GDW reissued at least one module to support V2x (Rendevous in Krakow) in a revised format with some different material. Perhaps if things hadn't gone the way they did we might have seen a revised Going Home at some point in time, which may have had the Tarawa as the TF34 flagship.

Just a thought...

[Legbreaker]

The information provided in the colour plates of the V1 soviet, US and Nato vehicle guides was reused word for word in the V2 books. The same for unit histories. Additionally, much of the V2.x timeline info was likewise recycled from V1.
Therefore, while it is conceivable that V2's Aviation & Nautical book diverged significantly from whatever was discussed in the GDW office, it seems exceedingly unlikely that they'd have "reinvented the wheel" so to speak. Therefore, I believe we can confidently use the Tarawa information as presented for all versions.

[Panther Al]

At the risk of jumping into a storm here, but there is a third option.

IIRC, Not all the US Troops went home: They chose some units to remain in Europe to maintain a US Presence in the theatre. It would make sense, since Europe is the hottest theatre around, to use the Tarawa as a Flagship for a small European based Navel Presence to support those US troops there. After all, you really are not going to *need* a full fledged light carrier back in the US, whereas in Europe it allows you to have a solid RDF operating the Baltic where the quality of opposition requires the use of such equipment.

[Olefin]

Great idea Panther - heck there is even a way you can explain the ship not being there for Omega and be in Europe and not sunk - which would be her captain declares for CivGov and takes the ship to support the ops in Yugoslavia - where such a ship would be of huge help to the US divisions that are there - and even though improbable it wouldnt in any way conflict with canon - because for one there is very little about Yugoslavia besides the forces there that is canon - and if all it has in one or two operational aircraft then the statement in RDF about last US active carrier group (at that time) still holds up

[Legbreaker]

The US units which stayed in Europe either didn't have a choice (the cut off XI Corps) or essentially muntinied and refused to obey orders. Some smaller units did stay with official sanction, but the withdrawal order was essentially all encompassing.

The Tarawa declaring for Civgov? Very unlikely since floating it's such a huge resource, deep in a Milgov area in mid 2000. You can bet Milgov would do EVERYTHING in it's power to prevent such an occurrence. As far as I'm aware, the ship supports the US Marines - no US marines declared for Civgov. It's very likely that even after delivering troops a decent complement of Marines stayed aboard.

As it's conventionally fueled, it's not about to join the Yugoslavian units either - it would be left all alone in the middle of a hostile situation. There's almost no possibility of fuel being available from any source.

Additionally, even if it was to mutiny and somehow get to Yugoslavia, it still has to face the "might" of the remaining Italian and Greek navies. Obviously Civgov had some naval assets when it deployed units there, but how effective are they by late 2000? Could they really have the necessary fuel, ammunition and surviving crew to sortie out to escort the Tarawa all the way, or even part of the way?

No, to me the by far most logical fate of the Tarawa is either sunk, beached or critically damaged somewhere in the Baltic as a result of Pact resistance to the Spring Offensive.

Others are entitled to have a different view, however careful examination of the published materials appears to support this assessment.

[Olefin]

Or alternatively Tarawa is at Omega - but doesnt show up until after the orders are issued for the evacuation - perhaps she is out of communication or has her long range radios knocked out - so she is assumed sunk

and then she steams into Bremerhaven with part of the 8th ID and the Marines on board or maybe just empty and unable to rescue them at all

We dont have any details on what exact ships were there by Nov 14 - so if she shows up between the orders issued and that date she is part of Omega and the module wouldnt mention it in any of the information the players had

Oh and it could then explain who takes the 6000 men to the RDF - its Tarawa and a few other ships

and the RDF module never mentioned what ships brought the reinforcements - just that they showed up

and Kings Ransom didnt have any naval elements in it - so Tarawa showing up wouldnt have been part of the module

so does Tarawa being there change canon - no not at all since no ships besides John Hancock were canon mentioned

I remember Leg arguing that only 9 ships existed in the USN because thats all that were mentioned at the time - then Challenger 42 comes out and now there are three DD's specifically mentioned as being in service and part of the Omega Task Force

so did canon suddenly explode and fly off into improbability - no it just expanded to add three DD's

same with Tarawa - adding her to the USN active list in now way suddenly makes the US rule the seas - she is just one more ship that is low on fuel if she is in the states or who arrives with the reinforcements at the RDF and who, like the French ships who were part of the FAR, not mentioned in the sourcebook

[Olefin]

and my assesment is just as well supported by the published materials Leg - so we can agree to disagree - and unless someone picks up Twilight 2000 again officially and says what is and what isnt canon - you are free to either add the Tarawa to a fan module or game or not

frankly its one way to add a naval element to a Polish scenario - have the Osprey fly off the sinking Tarawa if you want her sunk and land in Poland near, oh say, north of Krakow to be found by a bunch of escaping 5th ID soldiers who strip her for usuable equipment and add her crew as NPC's (or new characters if you need to replace some casualties)

If you want her part of the campaign - an Osprey is a great way to insert characters into, oh say, Texas or Last Submarine - or to do a pick up by helo from NYC with the King of NY in pursuit

[Legbreaker]

I remember Leg arguing that only 9 ships existed in the USN because thats all that were mentioned at the time - then Challenger 42 comes out and now there are three DD's specifically mentioned as being in service and part of the Omega Task Force

That is a misquote. I stated that was all that were listed in canon and did not close the door to the possibility of others.

In fact you will find at several occasions I have stated the possibility of additional ships, of ALL nations (specifically Soviet), but none in 100% working order.

The one factor which cannot be ignored though is balance. To increase the effective strength of one side will radically upset the delicate balance of T2K and turn it from a playable post apocalyptic game to an exercise in comparing military penises. Increase both sides and you have to justify supporting those units and explain why such "strong" units are no longer able to prosecute the war.

[Targan]

I don't really have any issue with the idea of the Tarawa being seaworthy and in active USN service, if it's post-Omega. Heck, there have been a couple of scenarios suggested for the Tarawa's ongoing service that I would support, given a bit more fleshing out. There are other examples where information on USN vessels is open to interpretation. An example - there are USN destroyers mentioned in A Rock in Troubled Waters that may well have been involved in escorting the Omega fleet either as part of the fleet all the way from Bremerhaven or for only part of the way. Those vessels weren't specifically stated as having been in the Omega fleet, but then again they weren't stated not to have been either.

Tarawa kind of falls into that category, too, but as I've said in previous posts it just seems unlikely to me that with a Spruance-class destroyer being specifically mentioned in Going Home, the Tarawa would be part of the fleet and not mentioned (and even more unlikely that it wasn't the flagship).

I like the idea of Tarawa not being in a suitable condition for the main Omega evacuation but being seaworthy enough by some time during 2001 to evacuate the Marines (and maybe 8th ID) from Poland/the Baltic States. It strikes me as a bit more unlikely, but possible, that the Tarawa was one of the ships that split off from the main Omega fleet to bring the 6000 troops to the RDF. That could certainly explain how it was initially with the Omega fleet but wasn't the flagship.

[Panther Al]

The US units which stayed in Europe either didn't have a choice (the cut off XI Corps) or essentially muntinied and refused to obey orders. Some smaller units did stay with official sanction, but the withdrawal order was essentially all encompassing.

The Tarawa declaring for Civgov? Very unlikely since floating it's such a huge resource, deep in a Milgov area in mid 2000. You can bet Milgov would do EVERYTHING in it's power to prevent such an occurrence. As far as I'm aware, the ship supports the US Marines - no US marines declared for Civgov. It's very likely that even after delivering troops a decent complement of Marines stayed aboard.

As it's conventionally fueled, it's not about to join the Yugoslavian units either - it would be left all alone in the middle of a hostile situation. There's almost no possibility of fuel being available from any source.

Additionally, even if it was to mutiny and somehow get to Yugoslavia, it still has to face the "might" of the remaining Italian and Greek navies. Obviously Civgov had some naval assets when it deployed units there, but how effective are they by late 2000? Could they really have the necessary fuel, ammunition and surviving crew to sortie out to escort the Tarawa all the way, or even part of the way?

No, to me the by far most logical fate of the Tarawa is either sunk, beached or critically damaged somewhere in the Baltic as a result of Pact resistance to the Spring Offensive.

Others are entitled to have a different view, however careful examination of the published materials appears to support this assessment.

Um, On the top bit I disagree with you on this.


I broke out going home, and started up with the pencil and paper to run the numbers.

The units that basically said to hell with it, and went off on their own amounts to only 2700 troops and 14 AFV's, in three units. The largest being made up of 2000/6 setting up a little pocket duchy in the Austrian Alps.

The units that remained in the chain of command, that elected to stay behind - and considering where over half of them are, (We are not talking about 11th Corp here, this is 4th Army, 3 Corp, and 13th Corp) Germany Proper, with the largest single unit being 1Cav with 2400/43 located right in the middle of organised (Well, TW2k sense of organised) Germany. Admittedly, a small portion of 1600 men and 14 AFV's fall under German Command being that they are co-located and assigned as a NATO unit to a German Higher Headquarters. Those two units could be argued either way as if they are running from the Chain of Command, or abiding by it since technically, they don't fall under the Omega Authority. The total staying behind in the chain amounts to 13,000 Men, and 121 AFV's. This amounts to roughly a third of US forces in Europe - and that many wouldn't stay behind without Official Sanction. Now those in my first Para - yeah. They fall into what you said about mutinous units and all.

Of course, that leaves 37,300 men heading out, and 231 AFV's being handed over to the German Army (Which I can just see the German High Command jumping for joy over - thats enough AFV's to bring a Panzer Division up from nothing to full strength and then some!). Which brings up a interesting point: If you have to choose who your guys belonged to that headed to the RDF, 5 Corp is the way to go. According to Going Home 5 Corp not only seems to have its shit together much better than a lot of the others, they do amount to a total of 7000 troops. Subtract those that are in no condition to stay in the army, this is a perfect formation to get seconded to the middle east.

[Targan]

Which brings up a interesting point: If you have to choose who your guys belonged to that headed to the RDF, 5 Corp is the way to go. According to Going Home 5 Corp not only seems to have its shit together much better than a lot of the others, they do amount to a total of 7000 troops. Subtract those that are in no condition to stay in the army, this is a perfect formation to get seconded to the middle east.

You're right, that's a good fit.

[Panther Al]

I broke out going home, and started up with the pencil and paper to run the numbers.

The units that basically said to hell with it, and went off on their own amounts to only 2700 troops and 14 AFV's, in three units. The largest being made up of 2000/6 setting up a little pocket duchy in the Austrian Alps.

The units that remained in the chain of command, that elected to stay behind - and considering where over half of them are, (We are not talking about 11th Corp here, this is 4th Army, 3 Corp, and 13th Corp) Germany Proper, with the largest single unit being 1Cav with 2400/43 located right in the middle of organised (Well, TW2k sense of organised) Germany. Admittedly, a small portion of 1600 men and 14 AFV's fall under German Command being that they are co-located and assigned as a NATO unit to a German Higher Headquarters. Those two units could be argued either way as if they are running from the Chain of Command, or abiding by it since technically, they don't fall under the Omega Authority. The total staying behind in the chain amounts to 13,000 Men, and 121 AFV's. This amounts to roughly a third of US forces in Europe - and that many wouldn't stay behind without Official Sanction. Now those in my first Para - yeah. They fall into what you said about mutinous units and all.

Of course, that leaves 37,300 men heading out, and 231 AFV's being handed over to the German Army (Which I can just see the German High Command jumping for joy over - thats enough AFV's to bring a Panzer Division up from nothing to full strength and then some!). Which brings up a interesting point: If you have to choose who your guys belonged to that headed to the RDF, 5 Corp is the way to go. According to Going Home 5 Corp not only seems to have its shit together much better than a lot of the others, they do amount to a total of 7000 troops. Subtract those that are in no condition to stay in the army, this is a perfect formation to get seconded to the middle east.

You're right, that's a good fit.

So, if we go with this - which makes sense on sooo many levels, here is the units scheduled to go to the RDF:

Bear in mind these units are the ones already in Bremerhaven, so they have had time to get everything back in order.

3rd Armoured, 5000 men, 54 AFV's.
4th Infantry, 1000 men, 16 AFV's.
28th Infantry, 1000 men, 4 AFV's.
11th ACR - When they are not blowing up their own motor pool, 500 men, 4 AFV's.

It would make sense to use the manpower tucked into the 11th ACR to cover losses in the other three units for the aforementioned loss of those unable to stay in the service. I would also suggest, though this is un-cannon, that the US MilGov would make a play to keep at least the heavy vehicles already present in these units (If only the 3d Armoured) to allow them to function in the Middle East. 3AD in particular was one of the very first units to arrive in Europe before it got really started, and has taken part according to the books, in *every* offensive of the war, and still has a very large strength of armoured vehicles and manpower. That still leaves over 150ish (Or 175ish) AFV's to be handed over to the Germans.

*edit*

Also, having the 3AD retain its Tanks and other heavy equipment does make sense in a canon way if you think about it. From what I read, the RDF is spread out over a wide area, with a very european reduction in combat power. In the RDF source book, it points out that the Soviets was getting ready to make a very large total offensive in 2001. If all the RDF got was leg infantry, I don't think that even with Airpower, the RDF could stop them. Reading the T2300 storyline, it sounds as if they did. Having the 3AD arrive in theatre, with its 54 Tanks, would give the RDF enough strength to beat back the offensive in such a way as to allow the US to get what they did out of the region as per the T2300 story line.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I like the idea of Tarawa not being in a suitable condition for the main Omega evacuation but being seaworthy enough by some time during 2001 to evacuate the Marines (and maybe 8th ID) from Poland/the Baltic States. It strikes me as a bit more unlikely, but possible, that the Tarawa was one of the ships that split off from the main Omega fleet to bring the 6000 troops to the RDF. That could certainly explain how it was initially with the Omega fleet but wasn't the flagship.

Targan, is a 3rd way feasible?

What about an all-encompassing Opord:Omega that has troops being pulled from Korea, Japan, Australia and points east...erm, west...and the Tarawa is conveniently the flagship of that evac mission, and it takes place at the same time, having avoided the worst of the typhoon season?

It satisfies all parties: Tarawa still afloat, but not a factor in the European/Baltic theatre.

[Olefin]

Actually having 5th Corps evacuated out with its AFV's is part of the alternate timeline that I have started to flesh out. When we did the RDF my GM looked at the 5th Corps and then looked at 6000 men and it made perfect sense - that they were sent out in their own evac, with their AFV's as part of an operation that deviated from Omega.

I.e. Omega took everyone but 5th Corps home without their tanks and 5th Corp went with their tanks and men to the RDF, giving them the men and AFV's to stop the last Soviet offensive and then push them out of Iran.

And how did they keep their tanks - because they got evac'd with ships from the states while the rest had to go home on the German ships and the fare for those ships was their heavy weapons and vehicles.

It also explains why the East Coast is so short of fuel in Troubled Waters - because they had to give most of their fuel to the convoy taking the 5th Corps to the RDF.

And by the way all of those suppositions fit totally into canon - it supports the written material of Omega and the RDF, explains where the 6000 men came from, and how the US and its allies drove the Soviets out of Iran for 2300 AD.

As for Tarawa - having her dispatched for an Asian Omega also makes a lot of sense - where are a bunch of Marine units that would need to be evacuated - answer- Korea. And she would be perfect to evacuate them.

And Leg, Tarawa being added to the USN in no way harms canon. She doesnt overpower any scenario or the outcome of any scenario.

Plus she adds a great way to get players back to Europe for the return to Europe scenario as well - i.e. she is late to the party for Omega or does the RDF evac - goes back to the States with the men who in the RDF choose to go home (it is mentioned that some do choose to go home and the best way to get them home is the ship or ships that brought the reinforcements), then is dispatched to Europe (possibly after being fueled with some of the oil from Gulf Forty) for a second Omega to get the remains of the 8th ID and the Marines out (and drops the player party off for the Return modules as well)

[Targan]

Panther Al, raketenjagdpanzer, Olefin - these ideas all have merit. Just to clarify a few things for my own understanding - say we have the Tarawa as the flagship of the Bremerhaven to Middle East Omega part of the Omega fleet, when she gets to the eastern end of the Mediterranean are she and her escorts able to traverse the Suez Canal? If so, we can wrap up many of these ideas in a nice, neat package.

There was an interesting discussion here a year or more ago about MilGov naval and merchant marine assets using Australian ports during long Pacific and Indian Ocean transits. If the Tarawa was able to take Omega evacuees directly to Saudi or Iran she would certainly then be able to take on fuel and undergo maintenance before travelling on to Australia, Korea and Japan. I guess then she'd be taking the troops to a west coast MilGov enclave. But it would work well, and she'd make a great addition to the seaborne lifeline between the CONUS and the RDF.

[Olefin]

It would make sense - she isnt on the Omega task force list because she is on a different mission that is going to the Middle East with the 6000 reinforcements - the Hancock and her Task Force are going home and the Tarawa and the 5th corps and their task force are going to the RDF

and all canon aspects are met completly since the RDF ever mentioned what ships brought the men there

works for me

[Legbreaker]

The Suez has been discussed a few times before and the consensus seems to be that it's closed. In the mid 50's a number of ships were sunk in the channel blocking it (on the order of Egyptian President Nasser) so we know it's quite possible.
A similar situation could be assumed in T2K - ships sunk, mines laid, and as at least one member of this forum has suggested, the area subjected to nukes.

With regard to the 6,000 troops sent to Iran, this calculator http://www.searates.com/reference/portdistance shows us that at 16 knots, it will take roughly 4 weeks from Bremerhaven to Bandar Abbas via the Cape of Good hope. This works nicely for the December arrival in Iran and CENTCOM's "early Christmas present".

The transit of the Atlantic which was to take ten days (arriving 25th November) requires a speed of 15 knots if the English Channel was taken. Given the hostility of the French as detailed in Boomer, it's more likely TF34 would go up around the north of Scotland (as would the ships bound for the Middle East), thereby requiring a slightly faster pace to still make the planned 10 day transit.

If the Middle East ships were to take the Suez, at that speed they'd arrive way too early, around the 1st or second of December. Admittedly that still fits the December arrival, however I would expect to see that described as "early December" if it was the case.

Could ships make better than 16 knots? Undoubtedly a few certainly could, however convoys are restricted to the slowest vessel. In WWII, this was as little as 3 knots. Something else to remember is the majority of TF34 was made up of "a hodge-podge collection of container ships, general cargo ships and tankers, excursion ships, and smaller vessels felt large enough to survive the crossing". Most of these ships would be lucky to have received much in the way of preventative maintenance since 1997 and it would seem unlikely any would be capable of their full theoretical speed. The John Hancock itself is likely to be suffering battle damage (as would any other military vessels).

6,000 troops is a lot. Even if the Tarawa was available and seaworthy, it's only rated to carry 1,900 marines. Additional ships would certainly be needed (which I propose would be mainly tankers to take advantage of the oil available in the Middle East for the possible voyage back to Germany). A tanker would be needed to accompany these ships too as the Cape of Good Hope route is about 1,000 miles further than the Tarawa's range.

With 33,730 cubic feet available for vehicles, and an M1 tank being approximately 2,500 cubic feet, only about a dozen tanks can fit. Given that restriction, the Omega orders to turn over all vehicles to the Germans and the need to feed and house 6,000 troops for a month, I just can't see any tanks going to Iran even in the unlikely event Tarawa was available.

One other piece of evidence against the Tarawa going to the Middle East is the list of US ships contained in the RDF Sourcebook. Note that the order of battle in that book is as of the 1st of January 2001, only shortly after the arrival of the reinforcements. Note also those reinforcements would have to be included in the OOB presented. There's a very good chance that the majority of the reinforcements would still be in the Bandar Abbas area (not really enough time to disburse them all to their new units).

[Olefin]

Actually Leg the RDF book proves that they had to load tanks and helos from Germany and bring them to the RDF

and missing ships doesnt mean anything - Frank said that the French had a naval squadron in the area and then left them out of the OOB - so leaving out US ships could also have been done

You can tell by looking at the US vehicle guide versus the RDF

24th Mech
July 1, 2000 - 2000 men, 9 M1A2
Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 18 AFV

101st

July 1, 2000 - 4000 men 4 AH-64
Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 4 AH-64, 12 UH-60

9th ID

July 1, 2000 - 1500 men, 12 LAV-75
Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men, 16 AFV

82nd
July 1, 2000 -3000 men, 7 AFV
Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men 12 AFV

6th ACCB
July 1, 2000 - 600 men 12 AH-64
Jan 1, 2001 - 1100 men, 6 OH-58, 12 AH-64

1st Marine
July 1, 2000 - 3000 men, 6 M1
Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men 16 AFV
3rd Marine
July 1, 2000 - 4000 men 5 M1
Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 12 AFV

Add up the difference and what do you get

4000 men
35 AFV's
12 UH-60 helos
6 OH-58 helos

meaning 2000 men havent been accounted for yet in the formations or they took losses in men and AFV's between June and Jan and they were made up

So that makes a possible 3rd Armored Division transfer even more likely along with possibly the other 1000 men being assigned with the 18 helos

they had 5000 men and 54 AFV after all and that definitely would give the RDF the reinforcements seen above

and the remaining men and AFV's may not have arrived yet - its says the first of 6000 reinforcements arrived in Dec of 2000 - it doesnt say that they had all arrived

so there it is Leg - its canon that tanks and helos were brought from Europe to the RDF in the December 2000 reinforcement

[Legbreaker]

Actually Leg the RDF book proves that they had to load tanks and helos from Germany and bring them to the RDF

See my post here http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php?p=44789&postcount=7 refuting this assumption.

[Targan]

With regard to the 6,000 troops sent to Iran, this calculator http://www.searates.com/reference/portdistance shows us that at 16 knots, it will take roughly 4 weeks from Bremerhaven to Bandar Abbas via the Cape of Good hope. This works nicely for the December arrival in Iran and CENTCOM's "early Christmas present".

The transit of the Atlantic which was to take ten days (arriving 25th November) requires a speed of 15 knots if the English Channel was taken. Given the hostility of the French as detailed in Boomer, it's more likely TF34 would go up around the north of Scotland (as would the ships bound for the Middle East), thereby requiring a slightly faster pace to still make the planned 10 day transit.

If the Middle East ships were to take the Suez, at that speed they'd arrive way too early, around the 1st or second of December. Admittedly that still fits the December arrival, however I would expect to see that described as "early December" if it was the case.

Thanks for doing the leg work on those numbers, Leg :D An around the Cape trip would work fine. And in my last campaign I had the main Omega fleet sailing north of Scotland, too.

[Olefin]

if you look at A Rock in Troubled Waters you see the following

"USS Bigelow (Forest Sherman/HuICClass): Seven of
this class of warship were mothballed at Philadelphia. Work
began early in January 1997 to bring them into service. Only
by working overtime with a greatly swollen work force were
five of them combat-ready by Thanksgiving, 1998.Two were
destroyed in port; two others were subsequently lost at sea,
presumably to enemy submarines. Of the surviving three,
two are based at Norfolk (Mamley DD 940 and Blandy DD
943) and one (Bigelow) at Cape May. They rarely put to sea,
due to a lack of fuel. Their last mission was escorting the
TF34 convoy in for the final third of the journey to Norfolk."

Ok so we know that DD 931 Forrest Sherman was there, as was Mamley, Blandy and Bigelow. That would make Sherman as one of the ones lost.

So what would be the other three Forrest Shermans lost there - anyone have any idea what other of her class were in storage at Philadelphia or is this not match the historical record.

By the way Turner Joy is in Bremerton WA and was a museum ship so she may have been one of the old DD's lost in the final battle where the Virginia got so badly damaged.

[Olefin]

By the way have an interesting idea of a potential recommissioned submarine for the USN or perhaps the Iranians for the Twilight War

USS Trout (SS-566)

she was sold to the Iranians but her crew abandoned her before she could be delivered in 1979

she sat around for a long time and was shuttled around to various places but she was operational

you have to wonder if she was either sold to the Iranians when the war started or possibly if she was refitted at the same time as the Forrest Shermans

she is conventional not nuclear so fuel would be a concern - but she would be a potential operational US submarine that could be used for ops in places like the Caribbean or Mexico - or even as a way to get characters to either New England or New York for the modules set there

and she wouldnt be a big issue for canon - and old Tang class sub is not even remotely like having a second SSN in service

not even sure if they could find torpedoes for her unless they got some overseas since I am pretty sure she used only the older Mk27 and Mk 37 torpedoes and except for some converted to mines they would have all been sold long before 1995

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've thought a lot about what a (probably non-canon) 2010ish US Navy would look like in the T2k setting; there's a lot of "display" or museum ships that are going to get pressed back into service for coastal security; it'll be a long time before the US can contemplate global power projection again, so I think about stuff like the USS Intrepid, the USS Alabama, other ships like that which they might attempt to get running again. Of course I have no idea what is involved; the very attempt might be laughably hard to the point that it would be easier to build new ships from scratch than to try to re-equip and re-float vessels like that.

[James1978]

The Forest Sherman class consisted of 18 ships. The ones I've highlighted in RED below weren't stricken until 1990. They seem like the best candidates to have stayed in some form of mobilization reserve and preserved in T2Kverse. That's nine ships, plus a test ship conversion. Two more were stricken in 1988/1989.

The ships you listed work, except for Manly DD-940. She'd been stricken for almost 14 years and was likely in terrible material condition.

It's basically AH, so I see no reason not to say they were all at the Philadelphia Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility if that's what you wanted to do.

*************************************************

USS Forest Sherman DD-931
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Stored at Philadelphia.

USS John Paul Jones DD-932
* Stricken 1985. Stored at Suisan Bay?

USS Barry DD-933
* Museum ship at Washington Navy Yard from 1984.

USS Decatur DD-936
* Stricken 1988. Converted into Self Defense Test Ship and served on West Coast 1993-2004.

USS Davis DD-937
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap.

USS Jonas Ingram DD-938
* Stricken 1983. SINKEX July 1988.

USS Manley DD-940
* Stricken 1983. Sold for scrap in 1992.

USS Du Pont DD-941
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap 1992.

USS Bigelow DD-942
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. SINKEX 2003.

USS Blandy DD-943
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Scrapped 1996.

USS Mullinnix DD-944
* Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1992.

USS Hull DD-945
* Stricken 1983. SINKEX 1998 off southern California.

USS Edson DD-946
* Stricken 1989. Stored at Philadelphia.

USS Somers DD-947
* Stricken 1988. SINKEX 1998 near Hawaii.

USS Morton DD-948
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrapping in 1992.

USS Parsons DD-949
* Stricken 1984. SINKEX 1989.

USS Richard S. Edwards DD-950
* Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1997.

USS Turner Joy DD-951
* Stricken 1990. Museum ship in Bremerton, WA since 1992.

[James1978]

I've thought a lot about what a (probably non-canon) 2010ish US Navy would look like in the T2k setting; there's a lot of "display" or museum ships that are going to get pressed back into service for coastal security; it'll be a long time before the US can contemplate global power projection again, so I think about stuff like the USS Intrepid, the USS Alabama, other ships like that which they might attempt to get running again. Of course I have no idea what is involved; the very attempt might be laughably hard to the point that it would be easier to build new ships from scratch than to try to re-equip and re-float vessels like that.
My guess is that they are focused on keeping whatever survived the Twilight War and made it home running for as long as they can. Beyond that, getting some shipyards back into production and building coastal patrol ships for anti-piracy and fisheries protection seems like about all the USN will be up for. IOW, building small Coast Guard cutters, but painted haze gray instead of white.

[Olefin]

The Forest Sherman class consisted of 18 ships. The ones I've highlighted in RED below weren't stricken until 1990. They seem like the best candidates to have stayed in some form of mobilization reserve and preserved in T2Kverse. That's nine ships, plus a test ship conversion. Two more were stricken in 1988/1989.

The ships you listed work, except for Manly DD-940. She'd been stricken for almost 14 years and was likely in terrible material condition.

It's basically AH, so I see no reason not to say they were all at the Philadelphia Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility if that's what you wanted to do.

*************************************************

USS Forest Sherman DD-931
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Stored at Philadelphia.

USS John Paul Jones DD-932
* Stricken 1985. Stored at Suisan Bay?

USS Barry DD-933
* Museum ship at Washington Navy Yard from 1984.

USS Decatur DD-936
* Stricken 1988. Converted into Self Defense Test Ship and served on West Coast 1993-2004.

USS Davis DD-937
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap.

USS Jonas Ingram DD-938
* Stricken 1983. SINKEX July 1988.

USS Manley DD-940
* Stricken 1983. Sold for scrap in 1992.

USS Du Pont DD-941
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap 1992.

USS Bigelow DD-942
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. SINKEX 2003.

USS Blandy DD-943
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Scrapped 1996.

USS Mullinnix DD-944
* Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1992.

USS Hull DD-945
* Stricken 1983. SINKEX 1998 off southern California.

USS Edson DD-946
* Stricken 1989. Stored at Philadelphia.

USS Somers DD-947
* Stricken 1988. SINKEX 1998 near Hawaii.

USS Morton DD-948
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrapping in 1992.

USS Parsons DD-949
* Stricken 1984. SINKEX 1989.

USS Richard S. Edwards DD-950
* Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1997.

USS Turner Joy DD-951
* Stricken 1990. Museum ship in Bremerton, WA since 1992.

Thanks for the list!

Well lets see - so you have Manley (who was probably the hardest to restore if she had been laid up that long), Blandy and Bigelow as canon restored and still afloat in A Rock in Troubled Waters. Forrest Sherman and Edson in Philly in real life and possibly the two that got sunk in port.

Task Force 115 in canon had five weary destroyers, one of which was the Decatur, who was sunk in the battle with the Russian task force. One of the destroyers is sunk by a submarine, and per Troubled Waters two of the destroyers are sunk by subs so we can assume one of them is one of the destroyers put back into shape from Philly.

Decatur was a PACFLT ship so most likely she came from Forrest Shermans who where in storage on the West Coast or Hawaii and were put back into shape there as well.

Barry is definitely gone when Washington got nuked and Ingram and Parsons are gone in Sinkex long before the war.

I have Edwards as being on station at Kenya - was from notes that Frank Frey had posted on USN Task Force at Kenya and will be in the Kenya module I am working on that will include canon info from Frank Frey (at least as far as his notes go) on what USN ships were there

So that leaves three gone for sure without need for mention in the canon, five sunk in canon (between Satellite Down and Troubled Waters), four still afloat, and six that could be afloat or could be some of the other three destroyers mentioned in Satellite Down of which two were sunk in the fight with the Russian DD's and one was damaged by a sub but not at the final fight and possibly is sitting damaged at a West Coast base.

thanks again james

[Panther Al]

I've thought a lot about what a (probably non-canon) 2010ish US Navy would look like in the T2k setting; there's a lot of "display" or museum ships that are going to get pressed back into service for coastal security; it'll be a long time before the US can contemplate global power projection again, so I think about stuff like the USS Intrepid, the USS Alabama, other ships like that which they might attempt to get running again. Of course I have no idea what is involved; the very attempt might be laughably hard to the point that it would be easier to build new ships from scratch than to try to re-equip and re-float vessels like that.

My guess is that they are focused on keeping whatever survived the Twilight War and made it home running for as long as they can. Beyond that, getting some shipyards back into production and building coastal patrol ships for anti-piracy and fisheries protection seems like about all the USN will be up for. IOW, building small Coast Guard cutters, but painted haze gray instead of white.

One thing that I noticed was missed in every discussion of what was hit and not hit regarding US shipbuilding (And refurbishment for that matter) capability is Bath Iron Works. Just about every Destroyer in US Navy Service, from the Spruance, the Tico's, and the Burke's was all built in this one shipyard tucked away on the Maine Coast. They have dry building slips for three 800' vessels (one of which is much longer than the others), and three more older fashioned wet slipways about the right size for Figs and possibly three more Burke's. If you go to Googlemaps, and look it up, you'll see one on a slip, one had just left the floating dry dock to be fitted out, and they are laying out plates for three more on the old fashioned slipways.

[Legbreaker]

I think it's worth reiterating that you don't have to destroy the shipyard itself to render it useless for building or even just repairing ships. Take out one or more of the power generation, transportation, raw materials, workforce, or even food stocks in the area and you render more than just one industry virtually useless. The trick is knowing exactly where to hit to cause the most, and longest lasting disruption.
It's not like a few hundred years ago when if you had a suitable beach, a nearby forest and a few dozen men with axes and you could turn out warships...

[Olefin]

The Bath Iron Works would be perfect for a mission similar to Last Submarine - but instead make it a commando mission to seize control of it from New America and then have MilGov move assets from Cape May and Norfolk to get the facility up and running again

Sure it would take a long time - but considering most of the remaining USN ships would be able to fit in a facility like that it would be perfect for that use.

You could even use it in combo with the Corpus Christi - i.e. she is hooked up to provide power while they get the power generating station going again at the Bath Iron Works.

And that works great with the canon of MilGov working to repair places that would be of benefit for military and also getting food - i.e. if you can repair DD's there you can also repair fishing boats and other ships.

You arent going to get all of Maine on its feet again - just the area around the Iron Works - a la what they are doing in A Rock in Troubled Waters for instance - its not all of NJ but just one small area that provides a big benefit for both the state and MilGov - i.e. the naval facilities in that area that also can be used to base fishing vessels out of.

[Webstral]

I have done a bit of work on the Maine coast--all non-canon, of course, but folded into the existing body of work so as to create as few wrinkles as possible. Others are free to use as much or as little of Poseidon’s Rifles as they see fit. In Poseidon’s Rifles, Bath Iron Works is firmly under the control of First District, USCG. Shortages of everything have prevented the facility from doing much besides repairing USCGC Gallatin and whatever shipping Milgov sends up to the District. The foundation of the food situation is fishing. Under the protective watch of Coast Guard cutters, fishing fleets from the District exploit the waters off coastal Maine and as far away as the Grand Banks. A truce that is much warmer than Milgov would like marks the relationship between the District and the United Brotherhood of Fishermen (UBF)(Last Submarine) up through 4/1/01. By the end of 2000, survivors in the District cantonments are growing their own food just like everybody else; but the fishing got a relatively high population through that first winter and growing season. As a result, about 85% of the surviving population of Maine lives on a narrow coastal strip under the protection of the United States Coast Guard.

[James1978]

One thing that I noticed was missed in every discussion of what was hit and not hit regarding US shipbuilding (And refurbishment for that matter) capability is Bath Iron Works. Just about every Destroyer in US Navy Service, from the Spruance, the Tico's, and the Burke's was all built in this one shipyard tucked away on the Maine Coast. They have dry building slips for three 800' vessels (one of which is much longer than the others), and three more older fashioned wet slipways about the right size for Figs and possibly three more Burke's. If you go to Googlemaps, and look it up, you'll see one on a slip, one had just left the floating dry dock to be fitted out, and they are laying out plates for three more on the old fashioned slipways.
Nitpick.

The entire Spruance and Kidd class were built at Ingalls Shipbuilding in Pascagoula, MS.

Bath Iron Works and Ingalls Shipbuilding split the Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke class.

The Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates were split between Bath Iron Works, Todd Pacific - San Pedro, and Todd Pacific - Seattle.

[Olefin]

I have done a bit of work on the Maine coast--all non-canon, of course, but folded into the existing body of work so as to create as few wrinkles as possible. Others are free to use as much or as little of Poseidon’s Rifles as they see fit. In Poseidon’s Rifles, Bath Iron Works is firmly under the control of First District, USCG. Shortages of everything have prevented the facility from doing much besides repairing USCGC Gallatin and whatever shipping Milgov sends up to the District. The foundation of the food situation is fishing. Under the protective watch of Coast Guard cutters, fishing fleets from the District exploit the waters off coastal Maine and as far away as the Grand Banks. A truce that is much warmer than Milgov would like marks the relationship between the District and the United Brotherhood of Fishermen (UBF)(Last Submarine) up through 4/1/01. By the end of 2000, survivors in the District cantonments are growing their own food just like everybody else; but the fishing got a relatively high population through that first winter and growing season. As a result, about 85% of the surviving population of Maine lives on a narrow coastal strip under the protection of the United States Coast Guard.

Do you have Poseidon's Rifles posted anywhere? Love to look at it!

[Webstral]

It's around here somewhere. When I have some time, I'll either find it here or assemble the requisite materials off my hard drive.

In Poseidon’s Rifles, Bath Iron Works is engaged in much more mundane work than producing new warships. Fishing vessels are the lifeblood of First District. Also, the machine shops at BIW are engaged in producing arms, armaments, and spare parts. Ditto the facilities at Portsmouth, NH. Towards the end of 2000, the various surviving governments in the region began talking about stepping up trade and attempting to coordinate their industrial efforts. If they can make this happen, then there is every reason to believe that the defense forces of northern New England will be able to equip themselves with enough machine guns, mortars, and ammunition to defeat the emerging threat of marauder super-gangs called hordes. If everyone is very lucky, they will realize that scattered among the various cantonments of New England are enough people with the right kinds of experience to operate the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant. Unfortunately, many of the surviving specialists worked at Vermont Yankee and now reside in the United Communities of Southern Vermont under the leadership of the Black Watch. The Black Watch is not especially cooperative. They have bad blood with the Vermont government at Burlington, the MPs at Westover AFB, the New Hampshire government at Manchester, and the Vikings who effectively run Nashua. This is a shame, because the benefits to all of bringing Maine Yankee back on-line at even a fraction of its potential would be a huge boon to the whole region.

[James1978]

The Bath Iron Works would be perfect for a mission similar to Last Submarine - but instead make it a commando mission to seize control of it from New America and then have MilGov move assets from Cape May and Norfolk to get the facility up and running again

Sure it would take a long time - but considering most of the remaining USN ships would be able to fit in a facility like that it would be perfect for that use.

You could even use it in combo with the Corpus Christi - i.e. she is hooked up to provide power while they get the power generating station going again at the Bath Iron Works.

And that works great with the canon of MilGov working to repair places that would be of benefit for military and also getting food - i.e. if you can repair DD's there you can also repair fishing boats and other ships.

You arent going to get all of Maine on its feet again - just the area around the Iron Works - a la what they are doing in A Rock in Troubled Waters for instance - its not all of NJ but just one small area that provides a big benefit for both the state and MilGov - i.e. the naval facilities in that area that also can be used to base fishing vessels out of.
A minor wrinkle for anyone who is interested. There was no dry dock at Bath Iron Works in Bath in T2K. Until 2001, there was a subsidiary yard in Portland, ME where the company had a dry dock. They installed the sonar domes at this facility.

The floating dry dock at Bath seen on GoogleEarth wasn't in place until 2001.

So if you want a dry dock, you also have to secure Portland.

[Panther Al]

Nitpick.

The entire Spruance and Kidd class were built at Ingalls Shipbuilding in Pascagoula, MS.

Bath Iron Works and Ingalls Shipbuilding split the Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke class.

The Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates were split between Bath Iron Works, Todd Pacific - San Pedro, and Todd Pacific - Seattle.

Fair enough. :) I figured since they did work on the Tico's they made some Spruance's as well.

[Webstral]

A minor wrinkle for anyone who is interested. There was no dry dock at Bath Iron Works in Bath in T2K. Until 2001, there was a subsidiary yard in Portland, ME where the company had a dry dock. They installed the sonar domes at this facility.

The floating dry dock at Bath seen on GoogleEarth wasn't in place until 2001.

So if you want a dry dock, you also have to secure Portland.

First District owns Bath, Portland, and Portsmouth from mid-1998 onward. One can see why Milgov, though royally pissed by RADM MacDowell's little coup de main, wants to stay on decent terms with the District. Aside from 43rd MP Brigade and possibly the Coast Guard command under Holsgirder in Narragansett Bay (RI), Milgov has few friends in New England. The state governments of Vermont at Burlington and New Hampshire at Manchester are in the Civgov camp, though this doesn't do much for Civgov. The Black Watch in southern Vermont is on bad terms with the 43rd, and therefore with Milgov. The City and Shire of Keene, NH is nominally in support of Civgov. The Isolationists in Providence want nothing to do with Milgov. The UBF is nominally in support of Civgov. The remaining surviving governments in Massachusetts have little to offer Milgov except food and shelter for small groups. The megapunks in Boston and southern New Hampshire obviously are no help to Milgov. The rising Blood Cross in northern Vermont, northern New Hampshire, and inland Maine also are a problem. In fact, one of Milgov's fears is that Civgov will find a way to unite Burlington, Manchester, the Cape and Islands (which are the stronghold of the UBF) and overpower First District, thus depriving Milgov of important assets. Anxiety about this very unlikely event has kept Milgov supporting the District at a higher level than might otherwise be expected. BIW factors strongly in a lot of peoples' thinking in Poseidon's Rifles.

[Legbreaker]

They're all good points there Web. I can't recall Milgov or Civgov having any significant naval or other assets anywhere along the east coast in any of the books. Most of the areas covered seem to imply there's a small presence, but struggling to survive against the overwhelming (comparatively) forces independent groups are fielding with little more than fishing and recreational boats they've thrown a few light weapons on.
There's certainly no frigates, corvettes, or even mine sweepers, etc anywhere to be found that I can recall, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, just that a) they're inactive/ineffective for some reason, or b) operating in areas not covered in the books. Option b doesn't seem too likely though given the books appear (to a non-American) to cover the more important areas.

[Olefin]

A Rock in Troubled Waters shows the MilGov assets that are at Cape May and also touches somewhat on Norfolk

Cape May has a Forrest Sherman DD and a CG WMEC that are both active and fully armed, Norfolk has two Forrest Sherman DD's - plus other ships most of which are the smaller ones as you detailed. There is also a tanker tied to the dock at Cape May that is empty. You also have to add in John Hancock tht is also at Norfolk.

Its a canon article out of Challenge Magazine - I have it at home and if you are interested I can put together the pages and post them here

I do have this one quote from the article that I posted earlier - the article took place early in 2001 and mentioned Bigelow shelling casinos at Atlantic City that had marauders in them and destroying three of them. It also mentioned that if the gold was recovered in Armies of the Night that Bigelow would be the ship that recovers it along with other forces at Cape May.

USS Bigelow (Forest Sherman/HuICClass): Seven of
this class of warship were mothballed at Philadelphia. Work
began early in January 1997 to bring them into service. Only
by working overtime with a greatly swollen work force were
five of them combat-ready by Thanksgiving, 1998.Two were
destroyed in port; two others were subsequently lost at sea,
presumably to enemy submarines. Of the surviving three,
two are based at Norfolk (Mamley DD 940 and Blandy DD
943) and one (Bigelow) at Cape May. They rarely put to sea,
due to a lack of fuel. Their last mission was escorting the
TF34 convoy in for the final third of the journey to Norfolk."

There are two other articles, Inland Waterway and Rifle River that also detail ships on the East Coast but I dont have them yet. From what I understand Rifle River has a CG WMEC as one of the ships.

There is also a reference in Troubled Waters to a dozen ships surviving after the Norfolk nuking that were in hiding in the Chesapeake Bay region

So that would give MilGov at least three DD, one DDG, and one corvette sized CG ship under their control (as well as the SSN Corpus Christi) on the East Coast that have fuel and armaments (but fuel is limited) and are in commission and the Coast Guard having at least one over corvette sized CG ship as well under independent control that has fuel and is in commission between Going Home, Last Submarine, Rifle River and A Rock in Troubled Waters plus a variety of smaller ships

oh and there is a sailing brig as well at Cape May that is pretty good sized and very well armed as well - she is actually used like a coastal defense ship

(from what I understand the articles in Challenge Magazine are considered canon sources - is that correct?)

[Rainbow Six]

From memory I think the only Naval assets listed on the East Coast of the US are in Challenge - a small force (maybe half a dozen or so ships?) in the New Jersey area (Cape May?) and the Coastguard enclave covered in Rifle River.

I could be wrong but I don't think anything else is mentioned?

Edit - just saw Olefin's post, which covers this in much more detail!

[Olefin]

they mention that two Forrest Sherman DD's are at Norfolk, one is at Cape May and that the CG WMEC at Cape May is going back to Norfolk soon

The DDG - i.e. John Hancock is from Going Home and the assumption is that she stayed at Norfolk once she got there

The sub - Corpus Christi - same thing after the submarine trilogy is over

and its bigger than a half dozen ships - they have various LCM's and some patrol boats as well that have been turned into monitors

They also have a large sailing ship that has had a turret mounted on her with a good sized gun and other armaments that is basically a coastal patrol/defense ship - about the size of a corvette or small destroyer if I remember right

I will post the description tonight when I get home - dont have that info with me right now

Rifle River has one WMEC as well but the way it is described the Coast Guard is only nominally answering to MilGov - it also occurs later than A Rock in Troubled Waters which occurs earlier in 2001

I have never seen Inland Waterway - not sure if there are any ships mentioned there at all - only seen the cover art for the article which shows what looks to be an armed USN patrol boat

I dont think there are any other canon articles that would detail ships

by the way it does say a dozen ships survived the nuking of Norfolk - so that would mean that at least a dozen USN ships were intact and active post nuke of Norfolk on the East Coast

and considering the Forrest Shermans werent ready till Thanksgiving 1998 that doesnt count those ships

[Webstral]

There's certainly no frigates, corvettes, or even mine sweepers, etc anywhere to be found that I can recall, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, just that a) they're inactive/ineffective for some reason, or b) operating in areas not covered in the books. Option b doesn't seem too likely though given the books appear (to a non-American) to cover the more important areas.

I've followed basically this philosophy. At the beginning of 2000, the District has only three combatants worth mentioning: USCGC Gallatin and two Bainbridge Island-class ships. The former packs a 76mm gun, while the latter bring 25mm guns to the fight. Frigates they are not. Well, I suppose Gallatin doubles as a frigate in a pinch. I haven't bothered to try to account for any of the other shipping that might have been operating out of northern coastal New England when the bombs fell. I've always operated on the principal that Milgov sent those assets elsewhere. We know, for instance, that some light units were sent to Europe in 1998 (I think). Whatever escort-type ships were operating out of the area can have gone that way.

[rcaf_777]

Landing Ship Tank Still Active

Here what I could dig up on LST still in use by the out break of the war

De Soto Country Class

In the late 1950s, many of LSTs of the De Soto County-class were constructed. These were an improved version over earlier WWII LSTs, with a high degree of habitability for the crew and embarked troops. Considered the "ultimate" design attainable with the traditional LST bow door configuration, they were capable of 17.5 knots (32.4 km/h).

USS Summit County (LST-1146) – Venezuela
USS Wood County (LST-1178) – US Reserve Fleet Beaumont TX
USS Litchfield County (LST-901) – Panama Commercial Fleet
HMS Stalker (LST-3515) Portsmouth UK
USS LST-325 – Greece
USS Buncombe County (LST-510) – US
USS LST-393 – US Commercial Fleet Sand Products Inc
USS Maricopa County (LST-938) – Vietnam
USS Clarke County (LST-601) – Indonesia
USS Clearwater County (LST-602) - Mexico
USS Dorchester (APB-46) – US Commercial Fishing Fleet Settle
USS Dukes County (LST-735) – Taiwan
USS Hampshire County (LST-819) – Greece Commercial Fleet
USS Iredell County (LST-839) – Indonesia
USS Iron County (LST-840) – Tawian
USS Lincoln County (LST-898) – Thailand
USS Pender County (LST-1080) – South Korea
USS Sedgwick County (LST-1123) - Malaysia

The Philippine Navy received 20+ units of the LST Mk.2 starting in the late 1940s, and still have 7 units on their active list as of 2010. This includes BRP Laguna (LT-501) (ex-USS LST-230), BRP Zamboanga del Sur (LT-86) (ex-USS Marion County (LST-975), BRP Kalinga Apayao (LT-516) (ex-USS Garrett County (LST-786) and BRP Benguet (LT-507) (ex-USS Daviess County (LST-692). Many of these defected to the Philippine Navy after the far of South Vietnam.

Newport Class

Twenty ships of the Newport tank landing ship class were built to replace the traditional bow door design LST. The Newport class has higher speeds and trimmer lines than the LSTs of World War II. The vessels have two huge derricks used to extend and retract a bow ramp. The 110-foot (34 m) ramp has a 75-ton capacity. The Newport class is the first amphibious ship to be fitted with an internal side propulsion unit located below the waterline near the bow. The bow thruster allows the bow to be pushed from side to side while the stern remains nearly stationary. This class of LST also has a stern gate. It allows them to load and launch amphibious assault vehicles, and permits stern gate matings with Landing Craft Utility (LCU) units

USS Newport LST-1179 Sold to Mexico in 2001 form inactive reserve
USS Manitowoc LST-1180 Sold to Tawian in 2001 form inactive reserve
USS Sumter LST-1181 Sold to Tawian in 2000 form inactive reserve
USS Fresno LST-1182 Sold to Peru in 2009 from inactive reserve
USS Peoria LST-1183 Sunk, durring Fleet training exercise in 2004
USS Frederick LST-1184 Sold to Mexico in 2002 from inactive reserve
USS Schenectady LST-1185 Sunk durring Fleet training exercise in2004
USS Cayuga LST-1186 Sold to Brazil in 2001 from inactive reserve
USS Tuscaloosa LST-1187 Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility Pearl Harbor
USS Saginaw LST-1188 Sold to Australia in 1994, in refit 95-96
USS San Bernardino LST-1189 Sold to Chile in 1995
USS Boulder LST-1190 Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility Philadelphia, PA
USS Racine LST-1191 Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility Pearl Harbor
USS Spartanburg County LST-1192 Sold to Malaysia in 1995
USS Fairfax County LST-1193 Sold to Australia in 1994, in refit 95-96
USS La Moure County LST-1194 Sunk durring Fleet training exercise in 2001
USS Barbour County LST-1195 Disposed of in support of Fleet training exercise, 2004
USS Harlan County LST-1196 Sold to Span in 2000 from inactive reserve
USS Barnstable County LST-1197 Sold to Span in 1994
USS Bristol County LST-1198 Sold to Morocco in 1994

[Olefin]

by the way one thing I have been looking at is submarines that could possibly be operational for the US - but not nuclear ones

I can think of three off the top of my head

USS Tusk SS-426 and USS Cutlass SS-478 - both are still in commission in Taiwan - both are Balao class submarines and both have operational torpedo tubes - I could see the US buying them back in say 1998 or 1999 and having them rejoin the Pacific Fleet as subs operating around Korea and possibly eventually making their way to the US

I would have those two as the best prospect for operational US subs to join the Corpus Christi along with USS Dolphin AGSS-555

there are others as well

USS Pampanito SS-383 - i.e. the sub they used for Down Periscope - she is still operational at least for surface ops, has an operational periscope, engine and even one operational torpedo tube - she would need new screws but there are museum subs that have screws she could use - and the mod to her hull for tourist access was relatively minor and should permit shallow dives

Dolphin AGSS-555 - she was fully operational in the timeline and was a deep sea research sub that had one external torpedo tube that was used for deep sea testing - but could be used as a regular tube - she would have needed to have a snorkel added to operate her diesels underwater but she could be used as is with just the batteries for diving if she was just loitering - her one tube had to be externally loaded so its strictly one shot

USS Cod - SS-224 - she is a Gato class and had no holes cut in her hull and thus she can dive as well as she did back in the day. It would take work to get her back to fully operational -but she could be restored

[Olefin]

others that could be acquired would be from Turkey

The Turks had the following ships still in commission when WWIII began

Guppy IIA type (ex-USS Balao)

TCG Burakreis - USS SeaFox
TCG Muratreis - USS Razorback
TCG I. Inonu - USS Threadfin

Guppy III Type

TCG II Inonu - USS Corporal
TCG Canakkale - USS Cobbler

USS Tench Class

TCG Ulucalireis - USS Thornback
TCG Cerbe - USS Trutta

USS Tang Class

TCG Pirireis - USS Tang
TCG Hizirreis - USS Gudgeon

So you have nine total subs - I could see the US trying to get one or two back from Turkey if they are still afloat, especially as the Turks had newer subs in commission

[James Langham]

I would guess Turkey could still use them effectively. Subs should be ideal for use in the Eastern Med to bottle in the Soviets. The US would probably welcome this although after the destruction of the major fleets on both sides this might change and the US might want them back (although by then they would be very useful against Greece).

others that could be acquired would be from Turkey

The Turks had the following ships still in commission when WWIII began

Guppy IIA type (ex-USS Balao)

TCG Burakreis - USS SeaFox
TCG Muratreis - USS Razorback
TCG I. Inonu - USS Threadfin

Guppy III Type

TCG II Inonu - USS Corporal
TCG Canakkale - USS Cobbler

USS Tench Class

TCG Ulucalireis - USS Thornback
TCG Cerbe - USS Trutta

USS Tang Class

TCG Pirireis - USS Tang
TCG Hizirreis - USS Gudgeon

So you have nine total subs - I could see the US trying to get one or two back from Turkey if they are still afloat, especially as the Turks had newer subs in commission

[Olefin]

by the way having these in US service doesnt contradict canon in any way - while it did say the last operational American submarine, that doesnt mean that there could be ones either being put back in service or that could have been bought or transferred later

or who because of fuel or lack of weapons are no longer operational

i.e. a submarine with no deck gun and no torps is basically a patrol boat that cant conduct anythign other than move on her own power - in a strict sense she is not an operational boat that can perform patrols and sink enemy ships

or they could be operational - but not able to get home due to fuel limitations - so they are confined to the Med or Korea - and thus are not part of the USN based out of Norfolk

[Targan]

How about a list of all the subs the Soviets could try to get back from their client states?

[Olefin]

That is a discussion for another thread - since this is recommissioned US Navy ships and not Soviet - but you have to look at who they sold them to - and remember that Iran is on the US side here as is China and Cuba has sat out the war

one big thing the US has going for it in general is how many older US naval vessels exist throughout not just the US in museums but worldwide compared to the Soviets

[Legbreaker]

Don't forget the Turks are on the front line of combat and are virtually surrounded by enemies on land and sea. They won't be giving up a single vessel, even if any survived against the combined Greek, Italian and Soviet naval forces brought to bear against them.
How do we know the Soviets didn't have vessels they could pull back into service? They had T-34's in reserve right up until recently (may even still have some). Why would they not do the same with ships?
To me the Soviets are more likely than the US to have vessels ready and able to be pulled back into service, and probably be able to do it quicker too!

[Olefin]

I was thinking more along the lines of US ships and Soviet ships in other country's navies that could be brought back to their respective navies but that is a good point.

And we know that both countries have been doing that - from the way Satellite Down is written it and also A Rock In Troubled Waters it is clear that both navies have been bringing older ships into play

i.e. the Forrest Sherman DD's mentioned in both modules are an example

and you have the Soviet destroyer Maskov mentioned as below in Satellite Down - and by the way I cant find any such named destroyer so it must be standing in for a real destroyer - from the description - i.e. all gun with a forward five inch turret it either had to be a Skoryy or a Kotlin class DD

Then the Soviet ship Maskov arrived in the area, and their attitude toward Brupp and the crew changed.

The Maskov was nothing more than a battered hulk of a
destroyer, brought out of mothballs in the last few months of
1998. Low on fuel and looking for a quick kill, the captain of
the ship learned of an American vessel supposedly operating
in the Gulf. These rumors helped him find the USS Virginia off
San Jose. On 4 May 1999, the Soviet vessel spotted the remains
of the Virginia in the distance. Thinking the ship was functional
and operational, it sped directly toward the scuttled ship,
firing wildly and almost blindly.

Brupp had managed to keep most of his ship's systems functioning.
The five-inch guns of the forward turret bore in on the
approaching Soviet vessel and cut it to shreds. The missiles that
the Maskov fired fell just short of their target, while the guns
of the beached Virginia fired on. Within a matter of minutes,
the aged Soviet destroyer blew apart, going down with all hands

[Olefin]

By the way - the CH-47 that is used at the end of Going Home to get the perimeter guards back does argue for a Tarawa size ship for it to land on or at least a helo platform a lot bigger than what is on a John Hancock

John Hancock was designed for helos half the size of a CH-47 - she couldnt land it

Tarawa could

[Legbreaker]

Hmm, missiles with a lesser range than guns...
Anyone else have trouble buying that?

I'd be more inclined to believe the CIWS knocked the old missiles the Maskov carried out of the sky than them "falling short".

[Olefin]

now if she had missiles that were part of the ship (and not some kind of jury rigged missiles that had very short range (say a bunch of AT missiles they used as antiship missiles) then a Kildin or later class is possible

but you are right Legbreaker - no purpose designed naval missile had a smaller range than a 5 inch gun

[Legbreaker]

That could work too. A couple of AT-5's on the deck somewhere...

Of course we're totally ignoring the Virgina didn't even have CIWS before 1984, at which time it lost it's helicopter hangar and pad (rendering great swathes of the module incorrect). But who's to say in T2K it didn't keep some parts and gained others.
Could even be that with the lack of missiles, the pad was reinstated (the hangar itself was never removed).

[James Langham]

Ditching in the water might be the only option? Actually alternatively landing on the deck of a cargo ship (the Royal Navy converted the Atlantic Conveyer into such a surrogate helicopter carrier for Chinooks in the Falklands - see the detail on Bravo November)

By the way - the CH-47 that is used at the end of Going Home to get the perimeter guards back does argue for a Tarawa size ship for it to land on or at least a helo platform a lot bigger than what is on a John Hancock

John Hancock was designed for helos half the size of a CH-47 - she couldnt land it

Tarawa could

[James Langham]

With the Virginia beached maybe it was targetting difficulties?

Alternatively assume detection was short range for both (fairly likely), the Soviets fire but, Virginia fires destroying the Soviets and the missiles then go rogue?

I was thinking more along the lines of US ships and Soviet ships in other country's navies that could be brought back to their respective navies but that is a good point.

And we know that both countries have been doing that - from the way Satellite Down is written it and also A Rock In Troubled Waters it is clear that both navies have been bringing older ships into play

i.e. the Forrest Sherman DD's mentioned in both modules are an example

and you have the Soviet destroyer Maskov mentioned as below in Satellite Down - and by the way I cant find any such named destroyer so it must be standing in for a real destroyer - from the description - i.e. all gun with a forward five inch turret it either had to be a Skoryy or a Kotlin class DD

Then the Soviet ship Maskov arrived in the area, and their attitude toward Brupp and the crew changed.

The Maskov was nothing more than a battered hulk of a
destroyer, brought out of mothballs in the last few months of
1998. Low on fuel and looking for a quick kill, the captain of
the ship learned of an American vessel supposedly operating
in the Gulf. These rumors helped him find the USS Virginia off
San Jose. On 4 May 1999, the Soviet vessel spotted the remains
of the Virginia in the distance. Thinking the ship was functional
and operational, it sped directly toward the scuttled ship,
firing wildly and almost blindly.

Brupp had managed to keep most of his ship's systems functioning.
The five-inch guns of the forward turret bore in on the
approaching Soviet vessel and cut it to shreds. The missiles that
the Maskov fired fell just short of their target, while the guns
of the beached Virginia fired on. Within a matter of minutes,
the aged Soviet destroyer blew apart, going down with all hands

[James1978]

Ditching in the water might be the only option? Actually alternatively landing on the deck of a cargo ship (the Royal Navy converted the Atlantic Conveyer into such a surrogate helicopter carrier for Chinooks in the Falklands - see the detail on Bravo November)
Aircraft Transport is probably a better description.

Think Defense has an interesting write-up on the conversion of Atlantic Conveyor (http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/04/the-atlantic-conveyor-falklands30/) during the Falklands War and includes pictures.

[Targan]

I'd be more inclined to believe the CIWS knocked the old missiles the Maskov carried out of the sky than them "falling short".

Makes sense.

[Rainbow Six]

Ditching in the water might be the only option? Actually alternatively landing on the deck of a cargo ship (the Royal Navy converted the Atlantic Conveyer into such a surrogate helicopter carrier for Chinooks in the Falklands - see the detail on Bravo November)

I always thought landing on one of the cargo ships would be the most likely option.

[Legbreaker]

By the way - the CH-47 that is used at the end of Going Home to get the perimeter guards back does argue for a Tarawa size ship for it to land on or at least a helo platform a lot bigger than what is on a John Hancock

There is no reason to believe the CH-47 was to land on the USS John Hancock. In fact, as flagship and one of the few warship escorts (and the only one actually named, or even mentioned), it doesn't make much sense for it to hang about until the last minute instead of providing security and command where needed. Additionally, the rearguard is not going to include anyone needed or even desired to be on the flagship - they are probably composed of an infantry platoon under the command of a junior officer.

With most ships in the fleet requiring work to convert them to troop carriers, it's very probable a civilian cargo vessel was fitted with a suitable landing pad.

Therefore the existence of the CH-47 cannot be used as evidence to say the Tarawa was included. As discussed many times before, the assignment of the John Hancock as flagship is a strong indicator the Tarawa was not available.

[Adm.Lee]

With most ships in the fleet requiring work to convert them to troop carriers, it's very probable a civilian cargo vessel was fitted with a suitable landing pad.

IIRC from the example of the Atlantic Conveyor, a locked-down stack of containers can form a suitable landing pad...

[Legbreaker]

IIRC from the example of the Atlantic Conveyor, a locked-down stack of containers can form a suitable landing pad...

Exactly what I was thinking. Weld on a few extra tie down points and you'd have little problem strapping the helicopter into place.

Alternatively, it's possible the helicopter was piloted by Germans and simply returned to land after dropping off the rearguard.

[Olefin]

I had forgotten all about the Atlantic Conveyor - and actually in a way opens up a way for their to be "aircraft carriers" that are still operational but non-traditional ones - i.e. ships like that operating either helos or VTOL aircraft like Ospreys and Harriers

and considering the lack of air opposition in much of the world even a couple of MD500 helos armed with unguided missiles would give you a big advantage

[Webstral]

Again, I'm no Navy guy, but I do believe that operating helicopters off a ship requires something very different than transporting helicopters on a ship. Some sort of sheltered work space would be required for maintenance. Other activities might well require below-decks space. HMS Ocean is a dedicated helicopter carrier. Her design reflects what the Royal Navy considers to be mandatory for sustained operations. Again, though, I have a very sketchy idea of what it takes to keep a dozen helos in the air on an ongoing basis.

[Olefin]

not talking about a sustained carrier - I mean an emergency carrier - i.e. you need make a landing and you need air support but no carrier available - a container ship could give you a way to get a few helos or VTOl aircraft there and be able to use them in the landing - obviously of limited utility for any sustained ops - but it woudlnt be sustained mainly for a limited duration for a specific mission

[James1978]

Back in the early 1980s, some British companies came up with SCADS - Shipborne Containerized Air Defense System. Basically it was a kit of 100 cargo containers pre-fitted for different mission support task, with a runway laid over the containers. They claimed a ship could be converted in 48 hours.

You can find an image of the proposal here (http://www.combatreform.org/SCADS.jpg).

The USN had a similar program called ARAPAHO that they tested in 1982 on the MV Export Leader. The deck was stressed to hold a CH-47. The RN leased the equipment in and installed in on the MV Astronomer for service in the Falklands.

RESOURCES
* ARAPAHO at GlobalSecurity.org (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/arapaho.htm)

* Merchant Carriers and Sky Hooks (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1983/1983%20-%200089.html), Flight Global 15 January 1983

* Arapaho Lives On (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1983/1983%20-%201072.html), Flight Global, 11 June 1983

[raketenjagdpanzer]

The problem with "hey fly planes or helos off a cargo ship" is that your planes have to be navalized in the first place. Salt air does horrific things to unprotected metal surfaces...

[Olefin]

and there are lots of navalized helos and airplanes out there - and keep in mind they can be protected - the UK sent RAF Harriers to the Falklands on the Atlantic Conveyor and a RAF CH-47 - and they flew off quite well after the long trip

[boogiedowndonovan]

The USN had a similar program called ARAPAHO that they tested in 1982 on the MV Export Leader. The deck was stressed to hold a CH-47. The RN leased the equipment in and installed in on the MV Astronomer for service in the Falklands.

RESOURCES
* ARAPAHO at GlobalSecurity.org (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/arapaho.htm)

* Merchant Carriers and Sky Hooks (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1983/1983%20-%200089.html), Flight Global 15 January 1983

* Arapaho Lives On (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1983/1983%20-%201072.html), Flight Global, 11 June 1983

Don't know if anyone is familar with the old Harpoon computer game, but the North Atlantic convoy scenarios included Arapaho ships with ASW helos.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

and there are lots of navalized helos and airplanes out there - and keep in mind they can be protected - the UK sent RAF Harriers to the Falklands on the Atlantic Conveyor and a RAF CH-47 - and they flew off quite well after the long trip

Oh I know; they were wrapped up and so forth. I just meant that a given aircraft isn't necessarily fit for use on a water-borne platform just because it is physically capable of take-off and landing from a ship.

Although with that said in T2k you probably have more aircraft than you have pilots and fuel so something like an AH-6 or OH58D might well be considered "disposable"...

[Legbreaker]

Although with that said in T2k you probably have more aircraft than you have pilots and fuel so something like an AH-6 or OH58D might well be considered "disposable"...

I'd have thought it would be the other way around.
Aircraft require parts to be repaired. A Pilot can heal given time.
Aircraft require specialised fuel to function. A Pilot can eat rats if they have to.
A damaged aircraft in the air tends to fall out of the sky rather heavily. Pilots tend to have ejection seats and parachutes.

[Olefin]

figured it would be fun to resurrect this thread

I would add the USS Oklahoma City to the list of ships that were brought out of mothballs for sure. At the time of her storage she was still operational, fully fitted out with flagship accommodations and communications gear. She was supposed to get extensive upgrades but due to cutbacks to the military she was instead stored in 1979 in the reserve fleet.

Given the need to get the ship into operation as quickly as possible she most likely would have been brought back as a pure gun cruiser - she still had one fully operational Mark 16 turret with three 6 inch guns and one Mark 32 mount with two 5 inch guns.

June 1997

As naval casualties mount the USN begins to reactivate useable ships form the Reserve Fleet. The guided missile cruiser Oklahoma City is pulled out of storage in June of 1997 from Suisun Bay and sent north to the Bremerton shipyards to be brought back to fully operational status. As she is needed back in service as quickly as possible the decision is made to bring her back as a gun cruiser only.

Parts are sent with her that have been removed from other light cruisers that were refitted into missile cruisers, including replacement gun barrels for her six and five inch guns. Parts needed for her engine room are obtained from several sources including the USS Little Rock, which is a museum ship in Buffalo NY.

TDM

The refit of the Oklahoma City, almost 50 percent completed, is halted due to the breakdown of civilian authority after the nuclear strikes in Washington State. A skeleton crew continues to remain aboard her, both to guard her and to keep working as they can to finish the job. As the Soviets begin their drive on Seattle all military resources are dedicated to stopping that drive, putting all work at the shipyard on the back burner.

June 2000

With the Soviet drive stopped and fighting having stopped in the Pacific Northwest, work is started again on the Oklahoma City. She is fitted with several .50 caliber machine guns as part of the refit for use against targets that aren’t worth a 5 or 6 inch shell.

March 2001

The Oklahoma City is re-commissioned into the USN and readied for her first mission, which will be to attack the Soviets who are on dug in on Queen Charlotte Island in order to remove the last threat to the Pacific Northwest from Soviet forces.

[Matt Wiser]

Oelfin, thanks for the OKC: you just gave me a ship that can be introduced in the Red Dawn timeline.

[James1978]

Oklahoma City was actually at Bremerton until @ 1992, when she was moved to Suisun Bay.

So for RDverse, no need to move her.

In T2K, if she was still moved south in 1992, I think it more likely she'd be towed the short distance to Mare Island NSY than all the way north to Bremerton.

One thought though. She was stricken in 1979. So just what preservation measures were taken and what condition she's in by 1996/97 is an interesting question. By contrast, Des Moines and Salem were weren't struck until the early 1990s. Having said that, after moving to Suisun Bay,her hull was repaired and she was modified into a test platform and was occasionally towed out to see for tests.

[Olefin]

Bremerton would probably have had the better facilities to refit her on the West Coast. She was still in pretty good shape when she was put in mothballs in 1979 as compared to many other ships that went into storage - they were about to do a full ten year extension on her and propulsion upgrades as well as weapon upgrades when they decided to mothball her due to congress cutting back on the military. Bringing her back as a gun cruiser and flagship with no missile systems wouldn't have been that hard.

[rcaf_777]

Very good. Do you have hull numbers and names for the destroyers? And how many Ashevilles do you figure are left?

Asheville Class Motor Gunboat

PGM-84 USS Asheville - Transferred to the Massachusetts Maritime Academy 11 April 1977, Broken up in 1985.

PGM-85 USS Gallup – Decommissioned in 1977 and placed in reserve, transferred to Naval Research Center Carderock, MD as a parts hulk in 1992

PGM-86 USS Antelope - Transferred to the Environmental Protection Agency 17 January 1978, Active as of 2001

PGM-87 USS Ready - Transferred to the Massachusetts Maritime Academy 11 April 1977, Broken up in 1985

PGM-88 USS Crockett - Transferred to the Environmental Protection Agency 17 January 1978, and scrapped in 1994

PGM-89 USS Marathon - Transferred to the Massachusetts Maritime Academy 11 April 1977, Broken up in 1985

PGM-90 Canon - Decommissioned in 1977 and placed in reserve, transferred to Naval Research Center Carderock, MD as a parts hulk in 1992

PGM-92 Tacoma – Sold to Columbia on 4 December 1995, Active

PGM-93 Welch – Sold to Columbia on 12 April 1995, Active

PGM-94 Chehalis - Converted to a Research Vessel and renamed R/V Athena, still active Homeport is Naval Surface Warfare Center, Panama City FL

PGM-95 Defiance – Sold to Turkey 11 June 1973, destroyed by fire 11 April 1985

PGM-96 Benicia – Sold to South Korea on 2 October 1971, returned to the US in 1991, scrapped 1998

PGM-97 Surprise – Sold to Turkey 11 June 1973, Active

PGM-98 Grand Rapids - Converted to a Research Vessel and renamed R/V Athena II, still active Homeport is Naval Surface Warfare Center, Panama City FL

PGM-99 Beacon - Transferred to Greece, 22 November 1989, in service till 1995

PGM-100 Douglas Rapids - Converted to a Research Vessel and renamed R/V Lauren, still active Homeport is Naval Surface Warfare Center, Panama City FL, Sunk as a target in 2008

PGM-101 Green Bay - Transferred to Greece, 22 November 1989, in service till 1995

Source: NavSource Online, Motor Gunboat/Patrol Gunboat Photo Archive

http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/11idx.htm


As you can see there are only six boats left in the US and two of those are been used a part hulks, but five of them are still US Navy and could brought back to active duty. The sixth boat is with the EPA and would like require a fair bit of modication as most of lab and other Science equipment would have to be removed.

[swaghauler]

My only question with recommissioning these ships is, where's the fuel they will burn coming from? I think any surviving Nuclear powered vessel would be worth it's weight in gold. The big aircraft carriers could be pressed into service as transports once their aircraft were expended. They can travel "Across the Pond" at will AND haul huge quantities of material while still being able to defend themselves from most remaining threats. I think the Navy would be concentrating on big container ships that were "upgunned" in order to move as much cargo as possible in a single trip. Patrols would be carried out with the smallest most economical ship that could perform the mission (including sailboats) in order to save any remaining fuel for the big container ships.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There's also the potential for nuclear powered vessels to act as tugs. Hauling a barge gives them increased capacity but they could effectively double/triple the capacity of a barge by towing a cargo ship instead.

Not saying it would be a common practice but if you're in a relatively safe area it's an alternative to trying to find fuel for all the diesel ships, particularly if you need cargo moved now instead of later.


Edit: There's a decent list of nuclear powered surface ships on the following link (it's just a matter of figuring which ships survived!)
http://www.radiationworks.com/nuclearships.htm

[Olefin]

Remember a lot of the older ships had engines that could burn very dirty fuel - ie basically unrefined oil. That kind of fuel is still going to be available because you don't have to go thru the effort of refining it - thus the older ships are actually the best ones they would have to use from a fuel standpoint compared to modern ships.

Let alone the older ships have less complex fire control and weapons systems - especially in a post TDM America (as in Last Submarine) where they were lucky to scrape up a half dozen modern torpedoes - whereas I doubt there is any shortage of 5 inch naval gum ammo.

[WallShadow]

Warning: here be snippage
Asheville Class Motor Gunboat

PGM-85 USS Gallup – Decommissioned in 1977 and placed in reserve, transferred to Naval Research Center Carderock, MD as a parts hulk in 1992

PGM-90 Canon - Decommissioned in 1977 and placed in reserve, transferred to Naval Research Center Carderock, MD as a parts hulk in 1992

PGM-86 USS Antelope - Transferred to the Environmental Protection Agency 17 January 1978, Active as of 2001

PGM-88 USS Crockett - Transferred to the Environmental Protection Agency 17 January 1978, and scrapped in 1994

PGM-92 Tacoma – Sold to Columbia on 4 December 1995, Active

PGM-93 Welch – Sold to Columbia on 12 April 1995, Active

PGM-94 Chehalis - Converted to a Research Vessel and renamed R/V Athena, still active Homeport is Naval Surface Warfare Center, Panama City FL

PGM-96 Benicia – Sold to South Korea on 2 October 1971, returned to the US in 1991, scrapped 1998


PGM-97 Surprise – Sold to Turkey 11 June 1973, Active

PGM-98 Grand Rapids - Converted to a Research Vessel and renamed R/V Athena II, still active Homeport is Naval Surface Warfare Center, Panama City FL

PGM-100 Douglas Rapids - Converted to a Research Vessel and renamed R/V Lauren, still active Homeport is Naval Surface Warfare Center, Panama City FL, Sunk as a target in 2008.

As you can see there are only six boats left in the US and two of those are been used a part hulks, but five of them are still US Navy and could brought back to active duty. The sixth boat is with the EPA and would like require a fair bit of modication as most of lab and other Science equipment would have to be removed.

Apparently PGM-96 USS Benicia was returned to the US Navy and stayed in Korea, where it was scrapped in 1998. In mid-90's, it would take a lot of fuel to return it to CONUS or even further to Europe or the Middle East.

If you'd care to stretch things a bit, the two sales to Colombia (effective Late 1995) might be cancelled with international conflict on the rise, and perhaps the scrapping of PGM-88 USS Crockett, might have been delayed, but only if you take into account the resurgence of the Hardline Communist Soviet Union post 1990 in the V2 timeline. "Scrapping" doesn't mean "Immediately Broken Up" necessarily. That would make up to 8 ships with a possible 2 more if extreme efforts were made to bring back the parts hulks to full function.
Depending what sorts of equipment the EPA boat has aboard, it might behoove them to leave it in place, if it's still working post-EMP.

PGM-97 USS Surprise, the one of the two PGMs sold to Turkey that didn't burn up may be salvageable or just in need of repair/fuel somewhere on the Mediterranian/Black Sea coasts. Mediterranian Cruise sideshow perhaps?

To echo a previously mentioned concern: where will the fuel for the gas turbines come from for the Ashevilles? Or will the turbines be removed and the weight replaced with more functional and necessary items?

[rcaf_777]

Warning: here be snippage


Apparently PGM-96 USS Benicia was returned to the US Navy and stayed in Korea, where it was scrapped in 1998. In mid-90's, it would take a lot of fuel to return it to CONUS or even further to Europe or the Middle East.

If you'd care to stretch things a bit, the two sales to Colombia (effective Late 1995) might be cancelled with international conflict on the rise, and perhaps the scrapping of PGM-88 USS Crockett, might have been delayed, but only if you take into account the resurgence of the Hardline Communist Soviet Union post 1990 in the V2 timeline. "Scrapping" doesn't mean "Immediately Broken Up" necessarily. That would make up to 8 ships with a possible 2 more if extreme efforts were made to bring back the parts hulks to full function.
Depending what sorts of equipment the EPA boat has aboard, it might behoove them to leave it in place, if it's still working post-EMP.

PGM-97 USS Surprise, the one of the two PGMs sold to Turkey that didn't burn up may be salvageable or just in need of repair/fuel somewhere on the Mediterranian/Black Sea coasts. Mediterranian Cruise sideshow perhaps?

To echo a previously mentioned concern: where will the fuel for the gas turbines come from for the Ashevilles? Or will the turbines be removed and the weight replaced with more functional and necessary items?

Yes I agree you could stretch it game play, but in reality the USN doesn’t really need them for the upcoming conflict so why keep them, yes they are great small boats for game play but of what use could USN have for them? The where built after the Cuban Missile Crisis for use in the Caribbean but then ended up going to war in Vietnam. The US transfers some to South Vietnam, Cambodia, and Thailand at the end of the war. This was done because the USN wanted out of the Brown water business. I am guessing that it saw all Soviet Shipping building of Capital Ships and figure they better catch up.

Yes maybe they could used in Caribbean, but how good a boat designed for small craft interception going to be against a Soviet Sub? Granted that both Turkey and Greece have Ashville’s but in small number and used as auxiliary craft and combat craft and I don’t think they would survived the Turks and Greeks going head to head.

There a few small boats that you could use a CONTUS base campaign

Asheville-Class Gunboat

PGM-85 USS Gallup – Transferred to Naval Research Center Carderock, MD as a parts hulk
PGM-90 Canon - Transferred to Naval Research Center Carderock, MD as a parts hulk
PGM-86 USS Antelope - Transferred to the Environmental Protection Agency
PGM-88 USS Crockett - Transferred to the Environmental Protection Agency awaiting scrapping at a reserve fleet location

PGM-94 Chehalis - Renamed R/V Athena, Homeport NSWC, Panama City FL
PGM-98 Grand Rapids - Renamed R/V Athena II, Homeport NSWC, Panama City FL
PGM-100 Douglas Rapids - Renamed R/V Lauren, Homeport NSWC, Panama City FL

Patrol Craft Fast (PCF)

PCF-1- In Storage at Naval Historical Center Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C
PCF-2 – Renamed R/V Matthew F. Maury operated by Tidewater Community College in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

United States Coast Guard Point-Class Cutters

There would about 48 of these boats still active service most with the coast guard.

Patrol Boat, River or PBR

There are five boats in use at Naval Amphibious Base Coronado to support special warfare training

[Olefin]

Did some research and the USS Trout was in a lot better shape than I thought - she was retained at Key West until 2003 and was not only in fully usable shape but could still dive (300 feet or less depth) and was capable of bottoming

http://www.submarinesailor.com/Boats/SS566Trout/helptrout.htm

From the site - the speed numbers are under remote control FYI

The Trout was sold to the Shah of Iran. She was rebuilt in 1979-1980 and restored to near perfect condition. Restoration included $26 million in upgrades, new engines, three sets of batteries, and all systems totally reconditioned. Before the transfer could take place the Iranians seized American hostages and the vessel was seized by the US along with other Iranian assets. The vessel lay at Inactive Ships Facilities in the Philadelphia Shipyard while legal and diplomatic efforts ensued.

The USS Trout was sold at scrap value to the Program Executive Office for Undersea Warfare (PEO USW) in 1994 and moored at Newport, Rhode Island. The vessel was then acquired by the NAWCAD Key West Detachment as an underwater acoustic target for ASW research and development, operational testing and training requirements for the US Navy.

Based on ASW fleet input, NAWCAD felt there existed a need for an underwater acoustic target. The US Navy has had a difficult time obtaining required test and training time on realistic ASW acoustic targets.

It was thought the USS Trout II could provide necessary and timely services as a dedicated asset. It could allow unrestricted active search, with no standoff required. It can operate in less than 300 feet of water and is capable of bottoming. It will operate at one to three knots and will allow torpedo terminal homing algorithm testing.

With a crew she was capable of 16 knots and still had crew quarters and accommodations

From a 2003 appeal to try to save the sub

This boat is a virtual time capsule, with the majority of her systems not only intact, but operational. Even her batteries are brand-new (without electrolyte)

Thus the Navy would have access to a fully operational diesel boat - i.e. she isnt a fast attack but she is capable of diving, has fresh batteries and still had her torpedo tubes and she can fire the Mark 48 - the Trout was actually the primary firing ship for the evaluation of the Mark 48 when it was first introduced into the fleet

One possibility for her may be that she is part of the Sea Lord's forces - i.e. he dispatched a ship with fuel to man her and take her up to Jacksonville

[Raellus]

I visited the USS Midway museum in San Diego yesterday. If you ever get a chance to go, I recommend it. I asked the docent giving the bridge tour, "So, this is probably kind of a weird question, but if the US got into another world war, how long would it take to recommission the Midway?"

His reply, "Never. Her hull's OK- obviously, she still floats- but too much stuff has been removed and technology's changed a lot since '92...

"Guess how long it took to build the Navy's newest carrier, the Gerald Ford? 9 years!"

Me: "So you'd think it'd make more sense to try to put the Midway back into action than to start building a brand new carrier that probably wouldn't be completed before the war was over."

Docent: "Yeah, I just don't see that [Midway returning to action] happening. They've done too much to her since decommissioning."

The docent wasn't a naval engineer or anything like that, but it makes me wonder how viable returning a museum ship to combat service condition would really be.

-

[cpip]

I visited the USS Midway museum in San Diego yesterday. If you ever get a chance to go, I recommend it. I asked the docent giving the bridge tour, "So, this is probably kind of a weird question, but if the US got into another world war, how long would it take to recommission the Midway?"

His reply, "Never. Her hull's OK- obviously, she still floats- but too much stuff has been removed and technology's changed a lot since '92...

"Guess how long it took to build the Navy's newest carrier, the Gerald Ford? 9 years!"

Me: "So you'd think it'd make more sense to try to put the Midway back into action than to start building a brand new carrier that probably wouldn't be completed before the war was over."

Docent: "Yeah, I just don't see that [Midway returning to action] happening. They've done too much to her since decommissioning."

The docent wasn't a naval engineer or anything like that, but it makes me wonder how viable returning a museum ship to combat service condition would really be.

-

Not very, in most cases. In many cases the ships haven't had engine maintenance (if they still have engines at all), for instance, and probably would need extensive work.

[Raellus]

Not very, in most cases. In many cases the ships haven't had engine maintenance (if they still have engines at all), for instance, and probably would need extensive work.

Absolutely, but doesn't rebuilding an engine seem like it would be a lot more expedient than building an entirely new vessel from the keel up?

-

[Vespers War]

Absolutely, but doesn't rebuilding an engine seem like it would be a lot more expedient than building an entirely new vessel from the keel up?

-

Having been responsible for sourcing parts on much smaller old vehicles, not necessarily. It's very likely parts will be obsolete, which means sourcing both the right material (which may not be commercially available) and someone who can take old drawings and make a part from them (which may or may not work if modifications to the design never made it into the drawing). Repeat that process a few hundred or thousand times for a large assembly, and pretty soon you're edging towards a case where it's quicker, easier, and cheaper to just make something new.

[Panther Al]

If you are up for a little YouTubing: The BB New Jersey channel did a video about this a few months ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcxYQBA7Uus

[Raellus]

Having been responsible for sourcing parts on much smaller old vehicles, not necessarily. It's very likely parts will be obsolete, which means sourcing both the right material (which may not be commercially available) and someone who can take old drawings and make a part from them (which may or may not work if modifications to the design never made it into the drawing). Repeat that process a few hundred or thousand times for a large assembly, and pretty soon you're edging towards a case where it's quicker, easier, and cheaper to just make something new.

Good insight. It sounds like trying to return the Midway- and most other floating museum ships, for that matter- to active service would be a case of diminishing returns, if I'm using that term correctly.

If it took 9 years to build the Ford, I wonder how quickly a supercarrier could be constructed in a total war scenario. It's crazy to think that Essex class carriers could be built in a year or two during WW2. I don't think construction times could be anywhere near that pace given current construction tech (or 1990s tech). Video bro says "at least half-a-decade" to construct a Ford class.

@Panther Al: Good find. Thanks.

-

[Adm.Lee]

Given that time frame-- years to build or rebuild a carrier-- what's it going to fly? After 1998, the USN may have more carrier decks afloat than working air wings, or fuel for aircraft and escorts.

[CDAT]

Good insight. It sounds like trying to return the Midway- and most other floating museum ships, for that matter- to active service would be a case of diminishing returns, if I'm using that term correctly.

If it took 9 years to build the Ford, I wonder how quickly a supercarrier could be constructed in a total war scenario. It's crazy to think that Essex class carriers could be built in a year or two during WW2. I don't think construction times could be anywhere near that pace given current construction tech (or 1990s tech). Video bro says "at least half-a-decade" to construct a Ford class.

@Panther Al: Good find. Thanks.

-

There is something to be said for the will to get it done. I read someplace that from the time they decided to build to when it was done and first occupied was 18 months for the Pentagon. Fixing it after 9/11 took almost as much time (16 months).

[Ursus Maior]

Building cosntruction isn't carrier technology though. First of all, you have a lot more construction workers than yard workers and second, while the Pentagon will need special infrastructure and security, specialists for that should be easier to come by than all the specialists involved in (re)building a super-carrier: Nuclear, radar and weapons technicians were not or hardly needed when (re)constructing the Pentagon.

And then there was only one Pentagon to reconstruct of course. In a war, you need to refit, repair, rebuild multiple carriers and construct new ones at the same time. That alone puts the US in a precarious position, since yard slots (i. e. large dry docks and even moorings) are hard to come by. That was already a problem during the Second World War.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind its one thing to bring USS Midway back now - i.e. you just went on the tour - its another to bring her back in 1997 when most likely she was still pretty close to her original equipment

Its the reason that they came close to bringing back the heavy cruisers - they were still shipshape and ready to go versus trying to bring back the sole survivor today nearly 25 years after the timeline war start

Thus the four battleships and two heavy cruisers are definitely in the Twilight War of the mid-90's versus what would happen if the Twilight War was fought today

Thats why many of the ships based in Kenya are there - a lot of them (including the Edwards) came out of long term storage and the boneyards because they were still in condition to do so - for those that still survive today most likely even during wartime it couldnt be done in the time they had

and the canon shows that some ships were pulled out of the boneyards/storage areas - the destroyers with the Virginia in her last fight were all older ones that had been pulled out of the storage areas/boneyards if I remember correctly

[rcaf_777]

Carriers By the Numbers

Active Duty

Kitty Hawk

USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63)
USS Constellation (CV-64)
USS America (CV-66)
USS John F. Kennedy (CV-67)

Enterprise Class

USS Enterprise (CVN-65)

Nimitz Class

USS Nimitz (CVN-68)
USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69)
USS Carl Vinson (CVN-70)
USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71)
USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72)
USS George Washington (CVN-73)
USS John C. Stennis (CVN-74)
USS Harry S. Truman (CVN-75)
USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) - Under Construction

12 Active Duty +1 Under Construction

Held in Reserve

Forrestal Class

USS Forrestal (CV-59) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Saratoga (CV-60) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Ranger (CV-61) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA

Midway Class

USS Midway (CV-41) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA
USS Coral Sea (CV-43) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Philadelphia PA

5 Held in Reserve

Out of Service

Independence Class

USS Cabot (CVL-28) - Decommissioned for preservation at New Orleans

Essex Class

USS Yorktown (CV-10) - Museum Ship Mount Pleasant, SC
USS Intrepid (CV-11) - Museum Ship New York City, NY
USS Hornet (CV-12) - Museum Ship, Alameda Ca
USS Lexington (CV-16) - Museum Ship, Corpus Christi Tx
USS Bennington (CV-20) - Hulk only Port Angeles, Wa
USS Oriskany (CV-34) - Hulk only Mare Island Naval Shipyard, Vallejo Ca

7 Out of Service

The number will higher if you count Amphibious Assault Ships

[Brit]

Obviously, will look myself... new project...

I think I read - Challange? Forum? Website? - that in T2K old / re-used Landing Craft would take over duties that helicopters would have done delivering cargo, etc, where they had access. I have seen photos of ones - ex-WWII - being converted with accomodation and landing pads in Indo-China (French?) and Vietnam (US?).

Are any preserved in The USA? They may not be 'glamourous' enough but are smaller, i.e. take up less space than an Aircraft Carrier!

(In The UK there are still some vessels in use that took part in the Dunkirk Evacuation).

Any LCAs, etc, in private hands, i.e. like DUKWs are?

Thanks.

[Brit]

Apologies if not interesting or whatever... but ... make your own Landing Craft:
http://vintagewargaming.blogspot.com/2010/06/make-your-own-lca-by-arthur-north.html

[CDAT]

Building cosntruction isn't carrier technology though. First of all, you have a lot more construction workers than yard workers and second, while the Pentagon will need special infrastructure and security, specialists for that should be easier to come by than all the specialists involved in (re)building a super-carrier: Nuclear, radar and weapons technicians were not or hardly needed when (re)constructing the Pentagon.

And then there was only one Pentagon to reconstruct of course. In a war, you need to refit, repair, rebuild multiple carriers and construct new ones at the same time. That alone puts the US in a precarious position, since yard slots (i. e. large dry docks and even moorings) are hard to come by. That was already a problem during the Second World War.

This is true, but what I was saying is that when the need is great, in the past people have found a way to get it done.

[Olefin]

Carriers By the Numbers

Active Duty

Kitty Hawk

USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63)
USS Constellation (CV-64)
USS America (CV-66)
USS John F. Kennedy (CV-67)

Enterprise Class

USS Enterprise (CVN-65)

Nimitz Class

USS Nimitz (CVN-68)
USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69)
USS Carl Vinson (CVN-70)
USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71)
USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72)
USS George Washington (CVN-73)
USS John C. Stennis (CVN-74)
USS Harry S. Truman (CVN-75)
USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) - Under Construction

12 Active Duty +1 Under Construction

Held in Reserve

Forrestal Class

USS Forrestal (CV-59) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Saratoga (CV-60) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Ranger (CV-61) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA

Midway Class

USS Midway (CV-41) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA
USS Coral Sea (CV-43) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Philadelphia PA

5 Held in Reserve

Out of Service

Independence Class

USS Cabot (CVL-28) - Decommissioned for preservation at New Orleans

Essex Class

USS Yorktown (CV-10) - Museum Ship Mount Pleasant, SC
USS Intrepid (CV-11) - Museum Ship New York City, NY
USS Hornet (CV-12) - Museum Ship, Alameda Ca
USS Lexington (CV-16) - Museum Ship, Corpus Christi Tx
USS Bennington (CV-20) - Hulk only Port Angeles, Wa
USS Oriskany (CV-34) - Hulk only Mare Island Naval Shipyard, Vallejo Ca

7 Out of Service

The number will higher if you count Amphibious Assault Ships

FYI you left out USS Independence CV-62 - she was still in commission when the war started in any version of the V1, V2 or V4 timelines


USS Harry S. Truman (CVN-75) – even though V4 has her ready to go for the war start I don’t see that happening – given her launch date most likely her commissioning is pushed forward as quickly as possible – the question is more does she leave before Norfolk gets nuked during the TDM or is she there?

USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) – most likely never laid down and parts that had been ordered used for war repairs

As to the rest

USS Forrestal (CV-59)

V1 – She would have 100% been in commission as the USN training carrier replacing the Lexington.

V2 if she decommissioned as in our world she would have had two anchors transferred to John C. Stennis and her four new bronze propellers installed on Harry S. Truman.

So, the question would be more do they stop work on the Harry S. Truman and get Forrestal deployed? Or would they use the propellers and anchors that had been ordered for Ronald Reagan? And would the TDM have caught her being refitted in Philly or Newport or would she be somewhere else?

USS Saratoga (CV-60)

V1 – She would be in active reserve and would have been put back into commission during the war

V2 – She would have been in the process of being stripped to help the active carrier fleet as the war broke out between Russian and China. Most likely that process may have been stopped or reversed in time to get her ready for war.

USS Ranger (CV-61)

V1 – Ranger would have gone thru a refit in 1994 and would have been just finishing it up when the war started. Thus she would have probably missed the initial battles and may have rejoined the fleet after the huge losses in 1996/1997.

V2 – She is in storage at Bremerton but wasn’t stripped like Saratoga and Forrestal - but was in worse physical shape. Thus they may have stripped her to get either Forrestal or Saratoga able to be recommissioned.

Midway Class
USS Midway (CV-41) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA

USS Coral Sea (CV-43) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Philadelphia PA

The two Midway class carriers would have long ago been stripped of what was needed to activate them and would have taken a hell of a lot of effort to get them back into commission. If they were brought back it probably would have been as either aircraft transports or helicopter carriers as their arresting gear and catapults would have been long gone most likely. They could possible be used by the US after the war (if they have the fuel to do so) as towed aircraft transports to try to bring back jets and helicopters from Iran and Korea.

Essex Class

USS Lexington is a museum in Corpus Christi - she went there after Red Star/Lone Star was written - so either she got nuked along with the rest of the city (and would make a great addition to that module) or the Navy tried to use her after the huge losses they took in 1996/1997 - but got me as to what shape her engines are in


Independence Class
USS Cabot has had extensive discussions here on its own thread. There is a very good chance it could have been put back into service as either an aircraft transport or helicopter carrier given the fact that her engines still worked and her gear had not been stripped (i.e. it arrived in New Orleans in working condition)

[Vespers War]

Obviously, will look myself... new project...

I think I read - Challange? Forum? Website? - that in T2K old / re-used Landing Craft would take over duties that helicopters would have done delivering cargo, etc, where they had access. I have seen photos of ones - ex-WWII - being converted with accomodation and landing pads in Indo-China (French?) and Vietnam (US?).

Are any preserved in The USA? They may not be 'glamourous' enough but are smaller, i.e. take up less space than an Aircraft Carrier!

(In The UK there are still some vessels in use that took part in the Dunkirk Evacuation).

Any LCAs, etc, in private hands, i.e. like DUKWs are?

Thanks.

I am almost certain none of these are in running order, but the US Army Transportation Museum has a LARC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LARC-V), a BARC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LARC-LX), and the last surviving Bell SK-5 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR.N5). The Wikipedia articles claim there are ~100 LARC in private hands and that the BARC was in service until 2001.

There are also a few surviving Landing Ship, Tank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Ship,_Tank#Last_WWII_survivors), including the New London to Orient ferry MV Cape Henlopen (ex-MV Virginia Beach, ex-USS Buncombe County, ex-LST-510).

I'm sure there are others, but I don't personally know of them.

[swaghauler]

Obviously, will look myself... new project...

I think I read - Challange? Forum? Website? - that in T2K old / re-used Landing Craft would take over duties that helicopters would have done delivering cargo, etc, where they had access. I have seen photos of ones - ex-WWII - being converted with accomodation and landing pads in Indo-China (French?) and Vietnam (US?).

Are any preserved in The USA? They may not be 'glamourous' enough but are smaller, i.e. take up less space than an Aircraft Carrier!

(In The UK there are still some vessels in use that took part in the Dunkirk Evacuation).

Any LCAs, etc, in private hands, i.e. like DUKWs are?

Thanks.

What's wrong with the US Army's "Navy?"

https://youtu.be/juyqJBVEi30

https://youtu.be/dx1_0y3E-oA

https://youtu.be/VKHbTZlwnvw

[swaghauler]

God only knows how many small privately built landing craft would be "drafted" by the US or Canada. These bad boys are all over the Great Lakes region and VERY common in both Alaska and the Bayou.

https://youtu.be/vMHAj9T_2-Q

https://youtu.be/bRn1UyfAVbY

Probably the most popular COMMERCIAL version. I see these everywhere they are working for oil, logging, or fishing around the Great Lakes

https://youtu.be/VuY96xEHP_E

[Brit]

One in Alaska from a certain TV series...

https://kilchercountry.com/uploads/images/Gallery/projects/IMG_6269.jpg

[rcaf_777]

Again how hard can it be these guys make it look easy?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iGp8D9832Y

:D