The AA-12 shotgun

[Schone23666]

Okay, time for another weapon question. The AA-12 Auto shotgun....what's the status of this weapon? Is anyone currently testing it, fielding it, etc?

It seems like a promising design that uses plentiful 12 gauge ammunition (nothing fancy like the CAW design) but as I think perhaps Paul might have pointed out correctly in an earlier post about auto shotguns, they're niche weapons for special applications.

Also, call me skeptical, but I did feel some warning bells go off when the designers claimed it didn't require cleaning or lubrication (unless I heard wrong). I recall the same mistaken impressions apparently went about when the M-16 came on to the scene...

[Legbreaker]

Oooooo, 12 gauge buckshotty goodness! :D

Although in my opinion a great weapon (in principle at least) I believe this is nothing more than a collectors item these days. Like all good things it wasn't picked up by anyone significant and has been pushed to the side of the road.
The design has in recent years though been picked up by a new company and a number of changes made (188 I believe) and it's been offered to the USMC as of aboud 2005.

[Schone23666]

Sorry, I should have clarified, I was referring to the more recent incarnation of the system on sale by MPS systems (I believe that's the vendor's name, could be wrong). They claim they sent several to the U.S. Marine Corps for testing, don't know what the result of the testing was though or how they felt about the weapon. There's a youtube video of the weapon here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhstuvzMiB0

Though I wonder about another auto shotgun on the market, the USAS-12 made by Daewoo. I heard some MAY have been picked up by U.S. forces for use in Iraq and/or Afghanistan, though I don't know who, assuming it's true of course. :confused:

[Panther Al]

Its always caught my eye, but yes: A special purpose weapon for very limited circumstances.

But then, you've always got those crazy (but fun) russians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8&feature=player_profilepage

[Schone23666]

Its always caught my eye, but yes: A special purpose weapon for very limited circumstances.

But then, you've always got those crazy (but fun) russians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8&feature=player_profilepage

LMAO, love that guy! :D

You should see this....Russians using the AS VAL rifle (a rather interesting weapon IMO) to shoot down icicles! :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS2MEN-C31U

[Legbreaker]

But then, you've always got those crazy (but fun) russians.

A man with a VERY fun pastime! :P
Gotta love it!

[Panther Al]

That guys collection is mindboggling. At first he was using other peoples weapons, but now days his personal armory is getting out of hand from what I have been hearing.


After all, not just anyone has a fully operational battle sta.. err.. 40mm Bofors tucked away in the garage. ;)

[copeab]

Its always caught my eye, but yes: A special purpose weapon for very limited circumstances.

But then, you've always got those crazy (but fun) russians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8&feature=player_profilepage

Oh yeah, stumbled across his videos several days ago.

"I am a professional Russian."

:)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The AA-12 has one very big issue that I think is probably the main reason it hasn't been adopted in any significant numbers.

The magazine is heavy and it doesn't get a lot of support from the magazine well/magazine catch. That 'frame' looking thing that encloses the pistolgrip is actually the magazine support. You have to thread the mag onto that before you can slide it up into the mag well.

Did you notice how in the filmclips they never seem to be in any real hurry to change a mag?
Imagine trying to do that with cold hands, in the mud and rain and at night.

As for the claim that it doesn't need cleaning or lubricating, yes you did hear it right. I paid particular attention to this weapon after hearing the new company make that claim. They are wrong, plain and simple, but it's all part of their publicity hype. They paid big money for the rights to the AA-12 and to update it and they were desperate to recover their costs.
This also had them claiming it was the world's deadliest shotgun - not in the middle of a fumbled mag change it ain't...

[Legbreaker]

Fix the mag issues and it could be a pretty damn good weapon...
Another small issue is the huge size of the drum mags. Most of the volume is basically wasted space. Three 10 round mags look like they are more compact than one drum which is a big issue for soldiers when they've got limited space in their webbing.

[LAW0306]

I have new toy .... M590A1 Blackwater



http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/NEW/51772.jpg&imgrefurl=http://mossberg.com/products/default.asp%3Fid%3D26%26display%3Dspecs&h=969&w=4017&sz=215&tbnid=UUxRidEcEiTC_M:&tbnh=33&tbnw=136&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dm590a1%2Bblackwater%2Bpictures%26tbm% 3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=m590a1+blackwater+pictures&docid=trvRHlGoSKB_rM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=unVkTvmELo_YiAKI8vG2Cg&sqi=2&ved=0CBoQ9QEwAA

[Legbreaker]

How is that relevant to the topic of this thread, the AA-12 besides being a shotgun?

[waiting4something]

The AA-12 has one very big issue that I think is probably the main reason it hasn't been adopted in any significant numbers.

The magazine is heavy and it doesn't get a lot of support from the magazine well/magazine catch. That 'frame' looking thing that encloses the pistolgrip is actually the magazine support. You have to thread the mag onto that before you can slide it up into the mag well.

Did you notice how in the filmclips they never seem to be in any real hurry to change a mag?
Imagine trying to do that with cold hands, in the mud and rain and at night.

As for the claim that it doesn't need cleaning or lubricating, yes you did hear it right. I paid particular attention to this weapon after hearing the new company make that claim. They are wrong, plain and simple, but it's all part of their publicity hype. They paid big money for the rights to the AA-12 and to update it and they were desperate to recover their costs.
This also had them claiming it was the world's deadliest shotgun - not in the middle of a fumbled mag change it ain't...

I agree with you 100 percent on what you said about the major probelm being how slow the magazine loads are. My USAS-12 has the same damn design feed and the same probelm. It's a great shotgun, but I would not want to have to do a magazine change with someone shooting at me. I used to have a Saiga 12 whichs loads like a AK, but is much slower and cumbersome to reload compared to the rifle. I'm not sure why they didn't design it with a actual mag well.
I always roll my eyes when I hear the "dosen't need to be cleaned or lubricated" fairytale.

[LAW0306]

It means the AA-12 is a gimic. Pro's use M590's or 870P's if you want a pump and some type of benenlli is you want a semi auto. AA-12 is a munchkin mall ninja gun.

[Legbreaker]

What it means is that is nothing more than your opinion and based on the limited selection of weapons you personally have used.
Can you honestly say you've ever even touched an AA-12, SPAS-15, HK-512, TOZ-194, RO-5?

I think not....

I know I haven't handled more than four shotguns in my entire life and that certainly doesn't make me an expert on weapons I havent' even laid eyes on outside of the internet. I for one am willing to take all designs on face value, apply some logic, and listen to the reports form those who actually have used the things before dismissing them out of hand in favour of the one weapon which was issued to me by the military and which just so happens to fit a fairly rigid set of parameters/political expediancy.

[pmulcahy11b]

What it means is that is nothing more than your opinion and based on the limited selection of weapons you personally have used.
Can you honestly say you've ever even touched an AA-12, SPAS-15, HK-512, TOZ-194, RO-5?

I think not....


Oh good god, not again with you two...

[Legbreaker]

Oh good god, not again with you two...

I honestly hope not... :(

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I agree with you 100 percent on what you said about the major probelm being how slow the magazine loads are. My USAS-12 has the same damn design feed and the same probelm. It's a great shotgun, but I would not want to have to do a magazine change with someone shooting at me. I used to have a Saiga 12 whichs loads like a AK, but is much slower and cumbersome to reload compared to the rifle. I'm not sure why they didn't design it with a actual mag well.
I always roll my eyes when I hear the "dosen't need to be cleaned or lubricated" fairytale.

You have a USAS-12... not that I'm jealous... much...
But onto the topic. The USAS-12 is an example of where the design concepts behind the AA-12 got it partly right. Both shotguns are the result of Max Atchisson's desire to increase shotgun firepower and while the USAS-12 is only broadly based on Atchisson's original AA-12, they at least managed to get away from the bad mag support/mag catch design of that weapon.

Like you, I am still surprised however, that they didn't put a proper magazine well on the weapon. I imagine it was to make the drums easier to manufacture or fit to the weapon or something like that but when you've got a 20-rd drum of 12g attached to the weapon, I would have liked to see a proper magazine well to support the mag rather than the truncated well they went with.

[Schone23666]

Thanks for all the info and opinions guys. :)

With that said...I'll be now happy to don a referee shirt and call a time out before anyone starts throwing fisticuffs out on the field. :cool:

[Legbreaker]

With that said...I'll be now happy to don a referee shirt and call a time out before anyone starts throwing fisticuffs out on the field. :cool:

*Don's flame retardant suit and steps into the ring*
Seriously though, it's done and over with as far as I'm concerned.

In principle, the AA-12 is a good idea. In practise, it appears to have issues with quickly changing mags. Solve that and you could have some serious fun and inflict real damage on all sorts of inanimate objects. :D

[LAW0306]

I'm a 2008 graduate of Foriegn Weapons Instructor Course. I'm an INFANTRY WEAPONS OFFICER! Below are two definitions from the Web of my job. No need to fight here he just needs to know what I do everyday of my life and what I have done for the last 4 years as an officer and the last 16enlisted. No harm no foul.


AA-12 YES Trained

Spas-12 and 15 YES Trained

HK-512 No Semi auto gun of the same ilk as old Remington model 11.

TOZ-194 No have seen, but not fired (DEA range 8 Quantico I chose to shoot a FN semi-auto that was all tricked out.) (PUMP SHOTGUN IS PUMP SHOTGUN though when I handled it.seemed cheap.)

RO-5 No have not used or read about.


Definition #1
The United States Marine Corps MOS 0306, Infantry Weapons Officers, or Marine Gunners, are Chief Warrant Officers that are technical weapons specialists and are knowledgeable (as pertaining to their acceleration of grade and experience) in the tactical employment of all the weaponry in Marine Corps arsenal; all weapons organic to the Marine infantry units.

Their technical skills complemented with infantry field experience fundamentally posits them as advisers to the force commanders within the Fleet Marine Force's task forces [i.e. Marine Expeditionary Force (MEF) and its subordinate units]. When assigned directly to a section of the general staff (usually "S-3/G-3" (Operations) sections), Marine Gunners may be responsible for developing and monitoring weapons training protocols, its tactical employment of weapons, and preventive maintenance of the unit's infantry weapons. During combat operations, Marine Gunners assists their force commanders in battle tracking.

They are sent forward to oversee the battle, reporting directly to task force commanders in a "directed telescope" fashion. Additional assignments may be assigned based on future needs of the Marine Corps; such as new weapons systems acquisition, new weapons systems research and development, management of the units ammunition allocation—and the unit training plan, infantry training, and fire support planning.

They have oversight of the unit's annual re-qualification programs for the service rifle and pistol, and supervise the unit's training programs with respect to individual and infantry crew served weapons—to include preparation of training plans and schedules. They also design, develop, implement and control expeditionary ranges, world wide. They have the ability to "set-up" combined arms training. As infantry weapons officers advance in grade, they are assigned to instructor/trainer billets, usually at the School of Infantry, Infantry Officer Course, The Basic School, etc., or more prestigious assignments, such as the Anti-Terrorism Battalion of 4th Marine Division (under the Fleet Marine Force operational status–the 4th Marine Expeditionary Brigade (4th MEB)).


Definition #2
MOS/Title: 0306 -- Infantry Weapons Officer

Type of Officer : Warrant Office

Type of MOS : PMOS

Rank Range: CW05 to CW02

Job Description: Infantry weapons officers are advisers to the commander at all levels on the tactical employment of the weapons organic to infantry units. Gunners assist the primary staff in the development and monitoring of unit training programs related to the training, tactical employment and the preventive maintenance of the unit's organic weapons. They have oversight of the units annual re-qualification programs for the service rifle and pistol and supervise the units training programs with respect to individual and infantry crew served weapons to include preparation of training plans and schedules. They also design, develop, implement and control expeditionary ranges, world wide, to accommodate all weapons organic to the MAGTF in accordance with the CUrrE!nt version of MCO 3570.1. Additional duties may include: new weapons systems acqui.sition, new weapons systems research and development, management of the units ammunition allocation, the unit training plan, infantry training, and fire support planning. His strength is his ability to "set-up" combined arms training. During operations the Gunner will assist the commander in battle tracking. He can be sent forward to oversee the battle, reporting directly to the battalion/regiment.al/division commanders in a "directed telescope" fashion. As infantry weapons officers advance in grade, billet descriptions will include: Marine Gunner Infantry Training Battalion (SOl East or West), Marine Gunner Advanced Infantry Training Company (SOl East and West), Tactical Training and Exercise Control Group (TTECG) MAGTF-TC, Marine Gunner Infantry Regiment (Active and Reserve) Marine Gunner Infantry Division, Marine Gunner Infantry Officer Course, Marine Gunner the Basic School, Marine Gunner Small Arms Weapons Instructor school, and Marine Gunner 4th MEB (AT). Additional assignments may be assigned based on future needs of the Marine Corps.

Job Requirements:

(1) Must have a minimum GT score of 110.

(2) Must have previously served in MOS 0369.

(3) Must be a minimum of Gunnery Sergeant when selected.

(4) TIS requirements are determined annually by CMC based on the needs of the Marine Corps.

(5) Must complete the Warrant Officer Basic Course.

(6) Must complete a specifically designed course of instruction sponsored by the Commanding Officer, The Basic School and the Marine Gunner OccFld manager.

Duties: For a complete listing of duties and tasks, refer to NAVMC Directive 3500-87, Training and Readiness Manual.


I dont need to say any more!

[copeab]

Guys, this isn't a locker room. You can put away the ruler ;)

[Schone23666]

Guys, this isn't a locker room. You can put away the ruler ;)

"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the WAR ROOM!" :p

Sorry, couldnt' help myself.

[Legbreaker]

Who's measuring? As far as I'm concerned the Ignore List is back in play. I would humbly suggest anyone who doesn't like what somebody else has to say should do the same and get over it.

[LAW0306]

and based on the limited selection of weapons you personally have used
I like to speak in facts. You said I had limited knowledge and I showed you I did not. No harm no foul I still respect you leg you are a good guy! I respect your service to your country! I have trained and fought with them for the last 10 years and I respect them much. Its my job to talk Weapons. I love it thats why I do it. Thats why two years in a row I was a finalist for Gunner of the year. I love my job and you tax payer's love me doing it I save you money and I work long hours for free!;) God bless you all I'm up late I have a bitch of a run in the morning going up KT then pyramid rock beach run! Paul dont laugh to hard! I'm on Blaine drive now. closer to your old stomping grounds. I like to talk and I hope no one is thinking I'm here to fight! If you do I will tone it down.



http://www.marines.mil/news/messages/Pages/ALMAR014-11.aspx


http://www.marines.mil/news/messages/Pages/ALMAR009-10.aspx

[Targan]

I hear you Law but Leg doesn't. He's put you on his ignore list. I suggest you do the same with him. Let's not return to the bad old days.

[kato13]

I hear you Law but Leg doesn't. He's put you on his ignore list. I suggest you do the same with him. Let's not return to the bad old days.

I have added Leg to Law's Ignore list manually in the backend.

[waiting4something]

You have a USAS-12... not that I'm jealous... much...
But onto the topic. The USAS-12 is an example of where the design concepts behind the AA-12 got it partly right. Both shotguns are the result of Max Atchisson's desire to increase shotgun firepower and while the USAS-12 is only broadly based on Atchisson's original AA-12, they at least managed to get away from the bad mag support/mag catch design of that weapon.

Like you, I am still surprised however, that they didn't put a proper magazine well on the weapon. I imagine it was to make the drums easier to manufacture or fit to the weapon or something like that but when you've got a 20-rd drum of 12g attached to the weapon, I would have liked to see a proper magazine well to support the mag rather than the truncated well they went with.

The lack of a decent magazine well just blows my mind. It shows how the magazine fed shotgun development has not improved since the 1970's. When I saw the new AA-12 having the same feed design I just knew this gun was going nowhere. The combat shotgun really is a gun without much change through the years. Its' been over a hundred years and we still have the tube magazine. we just can't seem to get past that point. I don't think with a limited capacity it matters that much if the shotgun is semi or pump. Both have strengths and weakness, and they will both run dry faster then you could want.

[Ronin]

Hi new guy here. While I have opinions about the AA-12. I think I will stay away from that flame war.:p Anyways, I remember reading somewhere (Cant remember where for the life of me.) that the USAS is very picky about ammo. If you run anything but 2, 3/4 remmington 00 buck in it. It jams up like a son of gun. Just some food for thought.

[Legbreaker]

Welcome to the fun Ronin.
If you have an opinion, lets hear it. Most of us are mature enough not to overreact even if we strongly disagree. :cool:

[waiting4something]

Hi new guy here. While I have opinions about the AA-12. I think I will stay away from that flame war.:p Anyways, I remember reading somewhere (Cant remember where for the life of me.) that the USAS is very picky about ammo. If you run anything but 2, 3/4 remmington 00 buck in it. It jams up like a son of gun. Just some food for thought.

It's not picky with the loads I have tried, which have been Winchester, Federal, and Remington(00 buck, slugs, and #4 buckshot. I have not tried using any low base loads, and I could see that being a probelm like with most semi-autos. The USAS-12 is chambered for 3inch loads, but the kicker like most, if not all magazine fed shotguns is they can only fit 2 3/4 shells in their magazines. One shotgun that I have seen be picky is the SPAS-12. It seemed to like Winchester and Federal. The Remington loads sometimes had issues. The big probelms with the USAS-12 is its fucking heavy, bulky, and slow and cumbersome to reload. Honestly I have not yet had a jam, key word YET. I used to have a Saiga 12 and that actually jammed twice on me on only 60 rounds. But then again to be fair, Saiga 12's are more just custom guns so each one will be different.

[Panther Al]

It's not picky with the loads I have tried, which have been Winchester, Federal, and Remington(00 buck, slugs, and #4 buckshot. I have not tried using any low base loads, and I could see that being a probelm like with most semi-autos. The USAS-12 is chambered for 3inch loads, but the kicker like most, if not all magazine fed shotguns is they can only fit 2 3/4 shells in their magazines. One shotgun that I have seen be picky is the SPAS-12. It seemed to like Winchester and Federal. The Remington loads sometimes had issues. The big probelms with the USAS-12 is its fucking heavy, bulky, and slow and cumbersome to reload. Honestly I have not yet had a jam, key word YET. I used to have a Saiga 12 and that actually jammed twice on me on only 60 rounds. But then again to be fair, Saiga 12's are more just custom guns so each one will be different.

Huh. When I was over there I toted around a SPAS12 for about 4 months till higher started to police unautherized weapons and never noted any issues with it liking one sort of ammo over another, it took everything I gave it and asked for more.

[Targan]

... it took everything I gave it and asked for more.

LOL. "I like the same traits in my shotguns as in my women".:D

[Ronin]

It's not picky with the loads I have tried, which have been Winchester, Federal, and Remington(00 buck, slugs, and #4 buckshot. I have not tried using any low base loads, and I could see that being a probelm like with most semi-autos. The USAS-12 is chambered for 3inch loads, but the kicker like most, if not all magazine fed shotguns is they can only fit 2 3/4 shells in their magazines. One shotgun that I have seen be picky is the SPAS-12. It seemed to like Winchester and Federal. The Remington loads sometimes had issues. The big probelms with the USAS-12 is its fucking heavy, bulky, and slow and cumbersome to reload. Honestly I have not yet had a jam, key word YET. I used to have a Saiga 12 and that actually jammed twice on me on only 60 rounds. But then again to be fair, Saiga 12's are more just custom guns so each one will be different.

Interesting. Good to know.

[Panther Al]

LOL. "I like the same traits in my shotguns as in my women".:D

*looks at his ex's and no comments*

[waiting4something]

Huh. When I was over there I toted around a SPAS12 for about 4 months till higher started to police unautherized weapons and never noted any issues with it liking one sort of ammo over another, it took everything I gave it and asked for more.

Well I don't know what to tell you on that one!? I have one and a relative has one. And from both our experience they tended to not dig the Remington loads 100% of the time. They can handle them, but their was a stoppage here and there. If you have military loads they are more then likely the Olin Winchester green shells with the black painted or dyed brass. So yeah it would most likely like that food. I know for sure low base rounds and reduced recoil rounds will make it choke, which is why it's a pump gun sometimes. The only thing where I could see different is the two I fired where pretty much new, yours I'm guessing had been broken in more? That is the only thing I can think of.

[Panther Al]

Well I don't know what to tell you on that one!? I have one and a relative has one. And from both our experience they tended to not dig the Remington loads 100% of the time. They can handle them, but their was a stoppage here and there. If you have military loads they are more then likely the Olin Winchester green shells with the black painted or dyed brass. So yeah it would most likely like that food. I know for sure low base rounds and reduced recoil rounds will make it choke, which is why it's a pump gun sometimes. The only thing where I could see different is the two I fired where pretty much new, yours I'm guessing had been broken in more? That is the only thing I can think of.

Just goes to show the same design can perform differently from piece to piece.
:)

Ours formerly belonged to Iraq- we took them out of an arms room, where I have to admit while well used, was spotless unlike most weapons we found over there. As to the ammo the bulk of it was random grab bag of what we could scrounge up with some mil issue.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well for a third perspective on the SPAS-12, way back when people in Australia were still allowed to own pump-action shotguns I was able to get my hands on a SPAS-12 for a weekend of goat culling.
There were four of us and while we had no issues with the Winchester 12g ammo, the action was stiff. It felt like you were working against the weapon - fast loading it was not. This particular gun was a few years old and had seen semi-regular use so it was definitely broken in and the guy who owned it was no slouch when it came to caring for his guns.
As 'cool' as Arnie had made the SPAS-12 in 'The Terminator', we stopped using it and relied on the rifles and other shotguns.

[waiting4something]

Well for a third perspective on the SPAS-12, way back when people in Australia were still allowed to own pump-action shotguns I was able to get my hands on a SPAS-12 for a weekend of goat culling.
There were four of us and while we had no issues with the Winchester 12g ammo, the action was stiff. It felt like you were working against the weapon - fast loading it was not. This particular gun was a few years old and had seen semi-regular use so it was definitely broken in and the guy who owned it was no slouch when it came to caring for his guns.
As 'cool' as Arnie had made the SPAS-12 in 'The Terminator', we stopped using it and relied on the rifles and other shotguns.

I totally know what your saying when you said that the action seems like it works against you. Both my convertible shotguns (SPAS-12 and M3 Benelli) are that way when set in the manual action mode. They aren't really intended to be used as pump guns. It's more a fail safe system when you have low power loads like cs rounds and such. It's the reason you always see SPAS-12's and M3 Benelli on the silver screen being used as pumps. The semi auto action can't cycle blanks, well that and pumping the action manually makes one look more macho.