Aircraft In 2000

[Top-Break]

Just wondering if there are any thoughts on the number and availability of aircraft in T2K.

My guess is that between combat losses, lack of fuel, spare parts, and the effects of EMP, most combatants are lucky to have even a handful of operational aircraft.

Those that are left are probably held as part of a strategic reserve.

I would expect most combatants to have at least a handful of fast movers (F-16s, F-15s, F/A-18s, Tornados, MiGs and Sukhois, ETC) tasked with front-line reconnaissance due to the loss of sattelite capability.

There's also a possibility that most major combatants have a few heavy-lifters still operational. All those civilian airliners and cargo planes that no longer have any supplies of fuel might come in handy.

Any thoughts or comments?

[95th Rifleman]

Those old WW2 museums will be emptied. in the UK, Duxford has several air-worthy aircraft that are old enough to be immune to the effects of EMP. They would make excelelnt COIN aircraft for dealing with UK-based marauders.

[natehale1971]

I had an electonics tech tell me this once... If you knew the EMP was on it's way, there is a way to prepare yourself for it. Namely detaching the power leads to the electrical system and turning the thing on so that all of the 'juice' has been drawn out of the electical device. once that's done, switch it off position.

He told me that if you pull all the batteries out of your equipment (CD/tape players, boomboxes, laptops) or pulled the power plugs out of electonics, or detached the electrical systems.. the EMP can pass without getting blown. This came from the A-bomb tests... that inert electonics were not effected, only those with a 'vampire' surge or fully turned on was blown out.

And looking back, it makes sense of One of the things on the Ike (USS Dwight D. Eisenhower, CVN69... horah! that magic number) that all of us were trained to do by the shakedown teams Gitmo, and that was to pull batteries out of all our electonics when we weren't using them.

IF the military had spareparts on the shelves, yes it would be time consuming (and rely heavily on the stockpiles)... but you'd still be able to get through them.

Did anyone else get training to pull batteries out of electronics when they were not in use? It took my friends and family nearly 6 years to break me of that particular habit, right after i had done it to the TV Remote. :D

[Webstral]

The RDF Sourcebook, which covers the Persian Gulf region, gives an idea of what the authors thought might be possible in an area with enough oil left for military and possibly industrial purposes. How often the aircraft fly is rather another matter. I've been told that modern combat aircraft burn through parts the way an alcoholic burns through a liquor cabinet. My reading on the subject generally supports this idea, although the alcoholic bit might be an hyperbole.

Parts for older aircraft may be easier to fabricate than parts for modern aircraft, but there won't be any assembly lines for P-51 parts. I don't know enough about supporting aircraft like the ones in the Confederate Air Force[1] to make a realistic assessment of how hard it would be for a major cantonment like Colorado to support obsolete aircraft. I don't know how many would be available, even to a major cantonment.


1 For those not familiar with the Confederate Air Force, a brief overview is provided here: http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/b17/confederateairforce.html

[Raellus]

A Marine helicopter (CH-53) aircrewman told me at an airshow that it takes about 50 man-hours of maintainence for every 1 hour of flight time to operate a CH-53.

I just don't see many operational aircraft in most parts of the world c. 2000. Aside from a few isolated regions, fuel availability would be a significant hindrance to air ops. Modern manufacturing is an oxymoron in 2000, and spares would come only from cannibalizing other aircraft.

Look at the airforce of nearly any failed state- you might see a couple old turboprop transports and one or two jet fighter bombers still operational out of an original force of dozens or hundreds of both types. No spares and/or poor maintainance means an imminent end to air ops.

And then there's the early years of the war. I think that the modern battlespace- especially over Europe during the height of the Cold War- would be extremely hazzardous to most aircraft types. Attrition rates would be really high while production, even before the exchange, would be fairly low. It takes a lot longer to build an F-16 than it did to build a P-51. With only a couple of years for the major combatants to gear up for total war, there wouldn't be nearly enough replacements to fill the gaps left by the casualties. Once the exchange begins, aircraft manufacture would come to an abrupt end.

This means that by 2000, the surviving airfleets would have been operating for about 3 years with no replacement aircraft, few new spares, dwindling supplies of cannibalized spares, a trickle of jet fuel, and probably only the bare minimum of maintainance.

[Webstral]

I agree with your assessment, Rae. Even Milgov would struggle to keep a couple of C-130s in the air, useful as the ability to airlift critical personnel might be. I'll resist the temptation to use this as an opportunity to repeat everything I've written about airships and the saving grace PCs can deliver to Milgov as a result of developments in Airlords of the Ozarks.

[Targan]

Welcome to the boards, Top-Break. There are a couple of threads regarding aircraft and airships in T2K listed in the Thread Map (which itself is a sticky thread near the top of the list). Take a look in the segment of the thread map Equipment; Aircraft/Naval http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=773#equip_an . There is also the Aircraft Rules thread http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=220 . I'm sure there have been other discussions a while back on aircraft that aren't listed in the Thread Map, too. Also, there have been extensive discussions in the past about EMP. One from the Thread Map: Vehicles and EMPs http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=267 .

[headquarters]

about aircraft inT2K

Different schools I guess - most agree that there will be a lot of limitations on airpower in the setting - parts, specialized manpower, fuel and ordinance stockpiles all limit the scope of air war in T2K.

But some take another view - any airpower - be it simply an obsolete ,piston engine or ultralight observation plane that allow you to observe and thus control an area would give any military organization a huge advantage over a ground locked adversary.

n my humble opinion there would be an end to modern air war as we know it with advanced jets and cargo haulers with great ranges. ( On some levels these capacities would be retained - but only high or highest up in the command chain - I think)

But T2K sets up the scenario where local or regional warfare erupt all the time all over the globe. Some players are remnants of national states or provinces with a relatively advanced industrial capacity - some or mere city-state type entities with more limited resources- but the one thing most have access to is the biggest challenge in overcoming gravity - sufficient theoretical knowledge. In my view - be it ever so askew ;) - any T2K society would be geard towards war and/or defense. A spotter plane could be built by a fairly small community - given that they have access to a few prerequisted resources - such as available food and manpower to spare as well as plans, scrounged parts etc.

If one city state put together a spotter plane or refurbish a crop duster to strafe ground troops - well given the prerequisits- it wouldnt take long until the enemy across the county did the same or made a fighter to take it down.

Low key- low tech aerial warfare would be back as what I am getting at. Access to existing parts to scrounge or refurbish might be absolutely necessary in some cases - but building an ultralight type diy project aircraft is going on in garages across the industrialized world in numbers as we speak


Here is a link to our aircraft docs - if you can use any of them in your game we would be honoured.

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/Aircraft/

[Legbreaker]

With only a couple of years for the major combatants to gear up for total war, there wouldn't be nearly enough replacements to fill the gaps left by the casualties.

Besides that which was necessary for prosecution of the war in China, the Pact had very little "gearing up". Besides the minimal amount of preparation over a very short space of time by Germany, NOBODY in the west was even thinking about war, let alone preparing for it.
This from both 2.0 & 2.2:
From the very beginning, this is a "come as you are" war; neither side is adequately prepared. The German Army has just finished a period of very rapid growth and rebuilding, many of its units being equipped with tanks and vehicles which have sat idle in warehouses for four or five years. The Poles and Soviets are at the end of several years of very limited military spending capped by a war in the east which has drawn off much of their best equipment already.
V1.0 could well be different given we know next to nothing prior to 1995 from canon sources. My guess is the cold war just rolled on and there wasn't the drawing down of forces seen in the early 90's IRL and in 2.x.

Even so, the west had little reason to see war in Europe coming so why would they prepare for it? Sure they may well be supplying China, however it's very unlikely anyone would be providing China with the best they have available for fear of the Pact getting their hands on it and reverse engineering.
In V1.0 EVERYONE was kept in the dark about the coming reunification of Germany, except those handful of people actually involved in the talks.
In 2.x we see Germany activating reservists in 1995, but that alone does not justify production of new equipment and canon specifically states in the quote above where the vehicles, etc are coming from. It's not until June 1996 that secret talks are commenced with German ethnic organisations within Poland, and the rest of the world sees nothing more than posturing and minor border clashes until the 27th of July 1996 to indicate war is coming.

Note border friction is a daily event world wide. Some borders are obviously a lot quieter than others, but some are downright deadly (take Korea as an example). The world doesn't mobilise and ramp up production based on friction.

Getting back to the topic of aircraft, I read a short story years ago (can't remember the author or more than general details) about a future where corporate wars were the only way to settle disputes, takeovers, etc. Technology was restricted to pre 1900 (I think) with black powder weapons predominant, no vehicles, and certainly no aircraft. Often the "war" would be won without a shot being fired as the larger company could afford to amass a larger mercenary army and essentially guarantee victory.
Our hero chose to join the smaller side, promising victory to the board of directors by use of an undisclosed advantage in return for a massive reward when he delivered.
His plan? Using something like a hang glider (the first one in history flew just before the tech cut off date - a fact only a handful of people knew) as an observation and command and control post. It would allow his side to spot the enemy much sooner and manoeuvre to greater effect, thereby negating the enemy's greater numbers.

This short story highlights the impact effective reconnaissance and superior intelligence has in war. Air power of any sort greatly aids in the rapid and efficient gathering of battlefield information and so any commander worth his rank will move heaven and earth to maintain even one prop driven light plane if they possibly can. Even a hot air balloon is better than nothing (although you wouldn't catch me volunteering for that duty as a slow moving aerial target!!!).

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Well, once wrested from the Mexican/Cuban forces, Davis Monthan AFB is going to be a treasure trove for a rebuilt USAF - acres of A1 Skyraiders and other prop a/c, for example, to cobble together working ships out of. Of course matters like fuel are a different issue altogether.

[Mohoender]

Is there a way to find out what types of aircrafts were there between 1990-1995? Looking at google map today, I still saw plenty of F4, 1 F100 and a couple F111...

I don't care if they are/were in flying order or not, we already discussed that but the scenario of a Franco-Belgian comic going by the title of "Dawn Patrol" (Buck Danny by Charlier & Hubinon) would perfectly fit in.

In the original scenario the heroes (3 USN pilots) are kidnapped by a former nazi sub-commander to locate a lost submarines. The action takes place in the early 1950's with the USN pilots operating from V45 "Valley Forge" and flying F9 Panther. They are brought to a Pacific island where dozens of US aircraft had been left over since WW2. They find a TBF Avenger and put it back in flying conditions using spare parts from other left over aircrafts.

I could perfectly imagine to have an inspired playing scenario taking place at Davis Monthan AFB with PCs looking for aircrafts to achieve a given mission.

This had been the first comic book I read back in 1977-1978. Wander why I hang up around this forum?:rolleyes: I guess, I'll be careful to what comic book I'll be giving my daughters.:p

[Raellus]

Well, once wrested from the Mexican/Cuban forces, Davis Monthan AFB is going to be a treasure trove for a rebuilt USAF - acres of A1 Skyraiders and other prop a/c, for example, to cobble together working ships out of. Of course matters like fuel are a different issue altogether.

That's a big maybe, IMHO. Those planes would need a lot of maintainance to become airworthy again. It's not like dusting off the Red Barchetta in the garage and firing it up for a Sunday drive. Parts may or may not be an issue (seems like a perfect scenario for cannibalization but I'm pretty sure that most electrical components are removed from the airframe before storage) but finding skilled aircraft mechanics probably would be. It also assumes that the Mexican military hasn't done anything with the aircraft either. They could have tried to resurrect some of them and/or they could have trashed them.

[pmulcahy11b]

When I was a GM, I played fast and loose with aircraft availability, but in "real" t2K, you may have some ultralights, gyrocopters, things like the occasional Piper Cub or Pilatus PC-6, and very rarely, more modern aircraft like the larger helicopters or perhaps some light jet aircraft or heavier prop-driven aircraft. They would not be as common as in my GM universe I had when I was GMing.

[headquarters]

When I was a GM, I played fast and loose with aircraft availability, but in "real" t2K, you may have some ultralights, gyrocopters, things like the occasional Piper Cub or Pilatus PC-6, and very rarely, more modern aircraft like the larger helicopters or perhaps some light jet aircraft or heavier prop-driven aircraft. They would not be as common as in my GM universe I had when I was GMing.

we tried our hand at it - it is quite fun but rules need to be tweaked somewhat to get meaningful duels in the sky.

In our game the players started out re-developing old WWI aircraft using whatever parts and materials could be made or scrounged. This led to a niece little air war that rapidly escalated into more WWII -ish stuff as General Pain reinvented the "Not-Jager Programme" - the emergency fighter program with jets etc .

They still have a few aircraft left ( how are the mighty fallen) of various types..

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Oh, I should mention "my" view of Orlando in T2k has the local MilGov cantonment forces with a couple of flyable helos. Loooots of avgas around the area, not a bunch of qualified pilots or flyable a/c. Some folks from Embry-Riddle made it to Orlando and helped the local authorities get two flying.

[Webstral]

Oh, I should mention "my" view of Orlando in T2k has the local MilGov cantonment forces with a couple of flyable helos.

Write us something. We've been a little dry lately.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

That's a big maybe, IMHO. Those planes would need a lot of maintainance to become airworthy again. It's not like dusting off the Red Barchetta in the garage and firing it up for a Sunday drive. Parts may or may not be an issue (seems like a perfect scenario for cannibalization but I'm pretty sure that most electrical components are removed from the airframe before storage) but finding skilled aircraft mechanics probably would be. It also assumes that the Mexican military hasn't done anything with the aircraft either. They could have tried to resurrect some of them and/or they could have trashed them.

Assuming they didn't trash them, if they get any more than a few flying they'd crush the already crippled US forces once and for all. Total air supremacy courtesy of a couple of flights of Skyraiders or AC47s pretty much dooms the US.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Write us something. We've been a little dry lately.

I never did finish my "Handout for departing troops" did I? I'll get crackin'.

[Webstral]

Total air supremacy courtesy of a couple of flights of Skyraiders or AC47s pretty much dooms the US.

That's a bit extreme, although no doubt C.L. Chennault would agree with you wholeheartedly. Assuming that "a couple of flights" adds up to four or so aircraft, each of which generates a sortie a day over the long haul (this is Twilight: 2000), then this amounts to four opportunities to attack US troops with one aircraft once per day. This does not amount to a Mexican ability to overrun and occupy the continental United States or anything remotely like it. A handful of CAS aircraft certainly would be powerful force multipliers for the Mexicans. However, I don't think even a zealous zoomie would say that a small package of even the legendary A-1 would completely upset the balance of power across 1500+ miles of what passes for front from 1998-2001.

[headquarters]

That's a bit extreme, although no doubt C.L. Chennault would agree with you wholeheartedly. Assuming that "a couple of flights" adds up to four or so aircraft, each of which generates a sortie a day over the long haul (this is Twilight: 2000), then this amounts to four opportunities to attack US troops with one aircraft once per day. This does not amount to a Mexican ability to overrun and occupy the continental United States or anything remotely like it. A handful of CAS aircraft certainly would be powerful force multipliers for the Mexicans. However, I don't think even a zealous zoomie would say that a small package of even the legendary A-1 would completely upset the balance of power across 1500+ miles of what passes for front from 1998-2001.

There certainly wouldnt be any significant results in the short run - no blitz tactic could be employes due to only 4-5 CAS prop a/c. But in the longer run, being able to strike with semi impunity the war would turn against the US loyalists still holding out. ( In this specific scenario - bear in mind - forces are mostly scattered about with few concentrated forces). Taking out smaller posts /units one at the time will as the seasons pass lead to posts being evacuated as attack draws nigh. Standing your ground is not an option to most when it will lead to a no-gains sacrifice.

all in my humble opinion. As for airwar - making AA weapons has always been the traditional countertactic against air superiority. Any thoughts on make shift AA weapons ? Could a missile be made in a garage that homes in on its target ? The Germans did it in 1945 and they had to develop it from scratch.

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html

Given access to modern plans - and electronics - could you make SAMs in T2K ? I think it is as plausible as refurbishing WWII planes and attacking the enemy. Using a jet that burns a ton of fuel were a prop plane that use 100 liters doesnt make sense imho. Air superiority isnt measured by the cold war standards in T2K is my 2 cents- more like WWI.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Given access to modern plans - and electronics - could you make SAMs in T2K ? I think it is as plausible as refurbishing WWII planes and attacking the enemy. Using a jet that burns a ton of fuel were a prop plane that use 100 liters doesnt make sense imho. Air superiority isnt measured by the cold war standards in T2K is my 2 cents- more like WWI.

Well, the upshot is that in the event that someone brings a small number of a/c to the CONUS to use as local air supremacy they're going to find themselves up against a fusillade of AA fire once they become a known threat. I have been told that equipping the AH64 for AIM-9 use is a "simple" field modification. In that spirit I could see ad-hoc SAM vehicles being cobbled together using Sidewinders and 2.5 ton trucks and improvised launch rails. Nothing fancy, mind you, just one guy with a pair of headphones and a firing switch, listening for the "growl" while sitting in the truck cab, with a rack of 'winders pointed downrange towards the FEBA.

Plus stocks of Redeyes, Stingers, etc. that might still be on hand in the US.

Worse (for the enemy a/c) you take a situational (although admittedly non-canon) thing like my "Florida JMC" where they have two working helos and couple that with ad-hoc missile usage and there's a serious threat for enemy a/c. Not in the sense that a Bell Jetranger would be trying to dogfight a Skyraider, mind. I could just see one coordinating with ground forces, hiding behind a building or hills, then when the guys on the ground call for it, popping out, getting a lock, and firing off whatever missiles, then popping back down. Hopefully the enemy's so confident of their own air supremacy and not expecting to get bounced like that they won't see it coming.

[Legbreaker]

Of course in the US there's the School Brigade with their oversupply of dedicated AA vehicles. If the Mexicans had air superiority, I can see Milgov moving heaven and earth to get that unit down there asap.

[Olefin]

FYI one aircraft that you wouldnt think could be available in T2K would be the Grumman Avenger - while there werent that many outside the US there are still even today a significant amount of airworthy Avengers in the US

almost all are TBM-3 and 3E versions but at last count there are at least 33 flyable airworthy planes still in the US and another 25 or so that are either being restored or are on display and could be used to get spare parts

and they are versatile aircraft - you could arm them with bombs or depth charges or just use them for patrol aircraft

you wouldnt want to operate them in areas that still had SAM's or modern aircraft still working - but in other areas they would still be effective

[Raellus]

I guess in some cases, some operational aircraft are better than none, but the Avengers probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to operate, except for as reconnaissance aircraft. As attack aircraft, TBFs would be very vulnerable to modern AAA and even small arms fire. To avoid it, a TBF would have to drop bombs from a significantly higher altitude, seriously compromising accuracy.

Avengers worked as light bombers during WWII because they were usually escorted by scores of Hellcats, which would strafe AAA positions to hell just before or as the Avengers started their bombing runs, allowing the TBFs to drop their bombs unmolested. And Japanese troops were equipped with relatively few automatic weapons, so ground fire from infantry was a negligible threat.

Unless you're operating TBFs against lightly armed bandits, or dropping bombs from beyond effective small arms range, I don't think Avengers are suited to even low intensity modern warfare, a la T2K.

[Vespers War]

One potentially useful place (and one that raketenjagdpanzer should be familiar with) is Kermit Weeks' Fantasy of Flight. Kermit inherited a bunch of money from an oil explorer grandfather and decided to spend a bunch of it on preserving warbirds, with an emphasis on keeping them in flying condition. He has the only remaining flyable Martin Marauder and Short Sunderland, as well as an F4U Corsair, a Spitfire Mk.16, a pair of P-51s (one C and one D), and a B-25 Mitchell. For more utilitarian flying, there's a Curtiss Robin, Ford Tri-Motor (the same one from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom), Stinson Tri-Motor, and the last airworthy Sikorsky S-39 flying boat.

As I'm writing this, I think it may have been brought up before with some question of whether the New America enclave near Tampa could have gotten there with the damage and hostile parties described in canon.

[RN7]

Despite the effects of EMP I think there are quite a few aircraft of all types still about in T2K for the reasons already mentioned by natehale1971 and others.

I would say that both the U.S. and Soviets still has hundreds of them in T2K, but very few are still operational outside of the still oil rich Middle East. The reason for my thinking is a reference to French airpower in Going Home SB on page 30.

"French units in the dead zone are in constant radio communication with their base. If they get into more trouble than they can handle alone, they can call for and receive support in the form of airstrikes or airmobile reinforcements (unlike their opponents, the French Army still has a small quantity of functional aircraft and the fuel to run them). Avgas does not grow on trees,
however, and the platoon who calls for aviation help had better have a good reason for doing so.

Reaction Force: This consists of a helicopter-borne patrol (generally Elite, but often Good) carried in three Puma transport helicopters, and two Gazelle helicopters (one ground attack and one anti-tank version!. It is dispatched against threats which the foot patrols have encountered, but feel are too large for them to handle."

This only references French Army aviation, but if the French Army is still operating a force of helicopters on the border with Germany and the Netherlands then I would assume that the French Air Force still has some operational combat and support aircraft in Europe. Although France sat out the war in Europe until it moved on the Rhineland in 1998 to defend its borders, France is in Europe and would also be affected by EMP from nuclear detonations across Europe. The main difference between France and the other powers in Europe is that the French have aviation fuel to keep an air force of off unknown size flying.

[Legbreaker]

My thoughts are EMP probably effected them as much as anyone, but France still has relatively intact industry to build replacement parts and electronics (after those industries themselves have been repaired of course).
What France doesn't have are slag piles where cities and infrastructure used to be.
So yes in 2000 they have helicopters and probably a few fixed wing craft too, but they're just the handful they've been able to return to service so far (explaining why calling for it is reserved for emergencies). Give it another few years and their airpower would likely be back to full strength again (provided they've got the pilots).

[Olefin]

I guess in some cases, some operational aircraft are better than none, but the Avengers probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to operate, except for as reconnaissance aircraft. As attack aircraft, TBFs would be very vulnerable to modern AAA and even small arms fire. To avoid it, a TBF would have to drop bombs from a significantly higher altitude, seriously compromising accuracy.

Avengers worked as light bombers during WWII because they were usually escorted by scores of Hellcats, which would strafe AAA positions to hell just before or as the Avengers started their bombing runs, allowing the TBFs to drop their bombs unmolested. And Japanese troops were equipped with relatively few automatic weapons, so ground fire from infantry was a negligible threat.

Unless you're operating TBFs against lightly armed bandits, or dropping bombs from beyond effective small arms range, I don't think Avengers are suited to even low intensity modern warfare, a la T2K.

Recon is exactly the mission I was thinking about - that and being used against groups that dont have anything beyond light machine guns for AA and using them at medium altitude as bombers - keep in mind just having an airplane you can use for recon and spotting is a huge advantage even if its not used in any kind of attack mode - and as opposed to a Cessna the plane was built for combat - i.e. it can take hits and keep going if it has to

[WallShadow]

(SNIP)
I'll resist the temptation to use this as an opportunity to repeat everything I've written about airships and the saving grace PCs can deliver to Milgov as a result of developments in Airlords of the Ozarks.
To be honest, I think the supercoolers/refrigeration units used by the original owners to keep their helium supply liquid might prove useful in separating out air gases by differential distillation, unless I misinterpreted the text.

[WallShadow]

(Here there bee snippinge)
Getting back to the topic of aircraft, I read a short story years ago (can't remember the author or more than general details) about a future where corporate wars were the only way to settle disputes, takeovers, etc. Technology was restricted to pre 1900 (I think) with black powder weapons predominant, no vehicles, and certainly no aircraft. Often the "war" would be won without a shot being fired as the larger company could afford to amass a larger mercenary army and essentially guarantee victory.
Our hero chose to join the smaller side, promising victory to the board of directors by use of an undisclosed advantage in return for a massive reward when he delivered.
His plan? Using something like a hang glider (the first one in history flew just before the tech cut off date - a fact only a handful of people knew) as an observation and command and control post. It would allow his side to spot the enemy much sooner and manoeuvre to greater effect, thereby negating the enemy's greater numbers.
I'll see your hang-glider and raise you...kites! South Asian/Indian fighting kites have been on record for centuries. AND...the United States Signal Corps used huge box kites at the end of the 19th century for Meteorological and Communications purposes. Surely one large enough for a (hopefully parachute-equipped) observer could be built? ;)

[bash]

I can't see a reason former first world powers wouldn't have some operational aircraft post-TDM. In the US there are literally thousands of private small aircraft sitting on the tarmac or in hangars of hundreds of municipal airports. These are besides the military aircraft not destroyed in combat or nuclear strikes. Even the magic EMPs of T2K aren't going to destroy every single electronic component in every one of these aircraft.

Aircraft rendered completely unusable from the EMPs will be canabalized to provide spares/repairs for other aircraft. Small aircraft would be some of the highest priority equipment any power bloc (MilGov, CivGov, etc) would want to control. I'd even say aircraft would be higher priority than heavy armor, tanks are well and good but aerial recon gives a huge advantage to even a light infantry force.

Avgas for planes wouldn't be any more of a problem than fuel normally is in T2K, after all somehow Diesel engines can run on alcohol. :confused:

Avgas and gasoline can be made from syngas with some processing, synthetic avgas has actually been a thing for years in civil aviation, the FAA allows up to (IIRC) 50% natural/synthetic avgas blends. Synthetic fuel was heavily used by Germany in WWII and chemical plants that made it were primary targets for allied bombing. So avgas would be something larger powers could end up making in bulk. Not commercial aviation is practical bulk production but enough to perform aerial recon and high value transport.

At the local cantonment level I think kites and balloons would definitely be used if not ultralight planes or paramotors in some places. Kites and balloons could be used for aerial photography, weather stations, or to loft radio repeaters to extend UHF/VHF comms.

I don't think what air power anyone can field would be used in front line combat very often though. With no armor or defensive systems repurposed civilian aircraft wouldn't want to get anywhere near enemy ground forces. They'd prefer nice safe high altitude missions.

[Legbreaker]

Avgas for planes wouldn't be any more of a problem than fuel normally is in T2K, after all somehow Diesel engines can run on alcohol. :confused:

T2K has a few smallish diversions from real world physics and chemistry to make the game playable. The fuel issue is one of them, radiation half life is another.
Sure, IRL they don't make a huge amount of sense, but seen in the light this is essentially an alternate reality with slightly different scientific "rules", it all fits nicely into place.

[Vespers War]

Avgas for planes wouldn't be any more of a problem than fuel normally is in T2K, after all somehow Diesel engines can run on alcohol. :confused:

According to The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel, it can be done either by mixing vegetable oil with the alcohol at levels of 5-20% to lubricate the injectors or by making a "diesohol" of 80% alcohol and 20% diesel. In both cases, it has to be anhydrous and is incredibly moisture-sensitive. I've also read about a system that's not moisture sensitive, but it requires a lot more modification. That one uses a small amount of diesel (as little as 5%) and injects high-proof alcohol from a second tank.

[Legbreaker]

That one uses a small amount of diesel (as little as 5%) and injects high-proof alcohol from a second tank.

That's likely the method most mechanics use in T2K, substituting something else (vegetable oil perhaps) for the small amount of diesel.

[Vespers War]

That's likely the method most mechanics use in T2K, substituting something else (vegetable oil perhaps) for the small amount of diesel.

I don't think vegetable oil will work. Most plant oils tend to have high autoignition temperatures (406C for cooking oil, 424C for canola, 435C for olive). Kerosene (which can be distilled from the liquid obtained from heating shale or coal) is at 220C, closer to diesel's 256C.

[Legbreaker]

Biodiesel is generally made from vegetable oil. https://www.thoughtco.com/make-biodiesel-from-vegetable-oil-605975

[Vespers War]

Biodiesel is generally made from vegetable oil. https://www.thoughtco.com/make-biodiesel-from-vegetable-oil-605975

Oh, that would work. I thought you meant straight vegetable oil without the transesterification process used to turn it into biodiesel. There might be some temperature restrictions (palm oil biodiesel gels at 55F/13C and canola around 14F/-10C), and you need to replace some of the fittings or else the fuel will eat your hoses (like ethanol does for gasoline vehicles), but yeah, biodiesel would probably work at least as well as kerosene.

[Olefin]

T2K has a few smallish diversions from real world physics and chemistry to make the game playable. The fuel issue is one of them, radiation half life is another.
Sure, IRL they don't make a huge amount of sense, but seen in the light this is essentially an alternate reality with slightly different scientific "rules", it all fits nicely into place.

and another is the fact that there are no ethanol blends of fuel and that the energy that they are using for ethanol and methanol is significantly lower than in reality - i.e. the difference between reality and what the game says they can is pretty large

[bash]

The main point I was making is the rules as written do not talk about biodiesel, dieselhol, or anything else. In the game world the alcohol goes from still to fuel tank and engine runs. So if we're operating in that world, avgas for small planes is no more difficult to produce than alcohol for our game world Diesel engines.

So talking about aircraft in the T2K world, the issue is more one of physical supply of planes, pilots, and airstrips than one of fuel for same. Powers like MilGov would make aircraft maintenance/refurbishment a crash program IMO. Per liter of fuel a Cessna with a radio and pair of binoculars would make a great force multiplier and better (again IMO) than trying to field heavy armor.

A couple working Hueys or Jetrangers would be a huge boon in the field. Thinking about it helicopters might even be a bigger priority than light planes as they have many of the same capabilities with added capability of air mobile infantry.

[swaghauler]

The designers of Twilight2000 didn't have a real understanding of fuel or fuel types other than perhaps some small research in their local library. In their defense, the internet didn't really exist when they wrote Twilight2000.

The Issues are;

Methanol alone does NOT have sufficient power to be used as a fuel. It simply lacks energy. It can be used to "cut" alcohol, gas or biodiesel/diesel, which WILL reduce that engine's power. A ratio of 10% methanol to 90% fuel will allow the "stretching" of an existing fuel supply. Cutting more than 20% Methanol into the fuel can result in reliability issues.

Ethanol is stated as having roughly HALF the power of gasoline. NOTHING could be farther from the truth. Alcohol actually has MORE POWER than gasoline but it burns hotter and, more importantly, FASTER than gasoline. This faster burn rate contributes to LOWER MILEAGE than gas but there is MORE POWER while you have a fuel supply. This is why Top Fuel Dragsters and performance racers all use an alcohol-based fuel system. The higher temps will cause the catastrophic failure of gaskets and hoses and eventually the piston rings and springs. However, any new vehicle rated for E85 CAN HANDLE alcohol.

The original Gasahol is a 50/50 mix of gas and Ethanol and you will see a significant reduction in MPG (up to 40%) but only a minor reduction in power for ground vehicles. Using Gasahol in Light Aviation IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER! Ethanol is known for water contamination issues and putting it into a carburated aircraft where the pilot controls the fuel flow/mix like a Cessna or Moonie (the two types I'M most familiar with) will probably result in carb stalls or carb intake icing at higher altitudes (where the cold air will gel the fuel and cause the water bound to the Ethanol to form ice crystals in the fuel lines). Power will also be SIGNIFICANTLY reduced compared to the high Octane ratings in AVGAS. Stalls will be common when attempting to maneuver under power, especially at high bank angles where fuel flow may "lean out" due to gravity. Standard High Test ground fuels will fare even worse. As a substitute for AVGAS, certain High Test Gasolines (97+ Octane) can be used with a bottle of special additives BUT it may result in reduced top speed AND altitude ceiling. This additive is commonly found at smaller US airports in order to support private and bush pilots who may fly into places where AVGAS is hard to get. Mixing High Test and Ethanol would be a NO GO in any smart General Aviation pilot's handbook.

The uninformed idea of AVGAS being needed for ALL Aircraft in Twilight2000 also needs to be addressed. This is NOT CORRECT. even the US Army's light aviation (based on the Cessna) is a TURBOPROP aircraft. ALL General Aviation Turboprop aircraft use Jet A fuel. The military turboprops use JP8. This fuel is less explosive and more uniform in its burn rates than AVGAS. In addition, a year before the First Gulf War, the Army started pushing a concept called "One Fuel Forward" where they only used ONE FUEL TYPE for all equipment and vehicles. That fuel was JP8. Yes, we began putting JET FUEL in diesel trucks in 1990. The initial issue was clogged fuel filters because the detergents in the JP8 "washed out" the contaminants from older fuels used before it. The second issue was that not all issued equipment used diesel fuel. The Army still had batches of older equipment that required MOGAS (gasoline). By the time of the Twilight War, diesel use would be "universal" and so would JP8. Any pilot would only need to look as far as the nearest tanker with "prewar" fuel production in it to find JP8 Jet Fuel. Civil aviation (which normally uses Jet A) can use JP8 as well. Fuel really won't be the issue for military aviation that GDW made it out to be.

Another issue is Biodiesel and Diesel being different fuels. The game has diesel engines using alcohol which is a questionable move. The diesel engines should be using Biodiesel made with Ethanol. Contrary to the opinions of an uninformed minority, there is NO DIFFERENCE in fuel economy OR power between the two. In fact, most diesels can run on FUEL OIL/HOME HEATING OIL. The fuels we were using in the 4/92nd and 475th prior to the JP8 were diesel in name only. You could lube a chassis with some of it. Virgin Airlines also proved that with sufficient detergents added, Biodiesel CAN BE USED BY JETS. They flew using highly-refined BIOWILLY'S (owned by Willy Nelson) without incident. In addition, most Jet Fuels are just highly refined Kerosene. With the right additives, Kerosene can be used to operate jet or turboprop aircraft. Anyone with Chemistry can formulate those additives.

[pmulcahy11b]

Current experiments mix biodiesel and jet fuel in a 50/50 ratio. It works for takeoff and landing without problems, but there might be a hit in speed, acceleration, and range (the jury is out, and the Air Force and Navy are getting mixed results. Current test aircraft include the C-17, FA-18, and UH-60, with limited experiments with other aircraft.

There are also reportedly such experiments taking place with ground vehicles, primarily with vehicles in Europe, though the US Marines' M1s, AAPV7s, and LAV25s are mentioned. I have not been able to find results. Ground vehicles have also been tested with 100% biodiesel.

In both cases, the biodiesel is derived from algae.

[Vespers War]

The designers of Twilight2000 didn't have a real understanding of fuel or fuel types other than perhaps some small research in their local library. In their defense, the internet didn't really exist when they wrote Twilight2000.

The Issues are;

Methanol alone does NOT have sufficient power to be used as a fuel. It simply lacks energy. It can be used to "cut" alcohol, gas or biodiesel/diesel, which WILL reduce that engine's power. A ratio of 10% methanol to 90% fuel will allow the "stretching" of an existing fuel supply. Cutting more than 20% Methanol into the fuel can result in reliability issues.Pure methanol is the fuel used by Champcars, monster trucks, Outlaw racing, and USAC sprint cars. If you watched an Indianapolis 500 between 1965 and 2006, you've watched methanol-fueled cars. High-end methanol has 97% of the energy by mass and 86% of the energy by volume of low-end ethanol, and it's more energetic than wood gas (which is used in cars and was used for Tiger training tanks in WW2), so it's certainly energetic enough. The problem is that it'll eat most of the materials commonly used for seals in fuel systems and engines, so it'll destroy anything that's not specifically designed to use it.

Ethanol is stated as having roughly HALF the power of gasoline. NOTHING could be farther from the truth. Alcohol actually has MORE POWER than gasoline but it burns hotter and, more importantly, FASTER than gasoline.That's not true. Ethanol has an energy content of 26.8 MJ/kg and 21.2 MJ/l. Gasoline is 48.3 and 34.8, respectively. By mass, ethanol has 55% of the energy of gasoline and by volume 61%.

This faster burn rate contributes to LOWER MILEAGE than gas but there is MORE POWER while you have a fuel supply. This is why Top Fuel Dragsters and performance racers all use an alcohol-based fuel system. The higher temps will cause the catastrophic failure of gaskets and hoses and eventually the piston rings and springs. However, any new vehicle rated for E85 CAN HANDLE alcohol.Top fuel dragsters use 90% nitromethane and 10% methanol. The fuel has a much lower energy density than gasoline, but nitromethane has oxygen in it, and the reduced demand for external air means an engine running nitro can burn 17 times as much fuel per second.

<snip aviation section since I'm not an expert on that>

Another issue is Biodiesel and Diesel being different fuels. The game has diesel engines using alcohol which is a questionable move. The diesel engines should be using Biodiesel made with Ethanol. Contrary to the opinions of an uninformed minority, there is NO DIFFERENCE in fuel economy OR power between the two.This is true, although it appears to be due to the way biodiesel lubricates. It has ~9% less energy than petrodiesel, and the best fuel for efficiency is B40 (40% bio, 60% petro), apparently because that's where the better lubrication of bio and better energy content of petro meet a happy medium.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Nice old thread revisit!

Given what I've picked up in the thread about fuels and so on I'm tempted to put at least some combat A/C back in the skies in my (very noncanonical) Twilight 2000 game should I get it going again. Won't be the in the thousands, but some airstrike capability in the event of an emergency; most of it is to protect what's left of NATO forces still in the western region of Germany and to keep France off-balance.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Purely from the point of view of creating scenarios, having a handful of aircraft flying opens up some opportunities. I'm not thinking so much of PCs getting to use said aircraft (at least, not straight away) but more along the lines of missions in support of aircraft such as the PCs being sent out to: - collect parts/fuel/ammo, locate pilots/crew/mechanics/technicians, rescue downed aircrew, destroy threats to the operation of the aircraft (e.g. AAA, other aircraft), provide early warning of enemy aircraft and so on.

I'm also thinking of the fear factor of both allied and enemy forces who would have to keep an eye on the sky and the potential for worry while they try to identify an approaching aircraft.
Even with the prevalence of ManPADS, SAMs & AAA before the war, they will be, like everything, reduced in overall numbers or be less effective due to lack of ammo, transport or trained personnel or they might be concentrated around important locations (and perhaps the PCs are tasked with plotting the locations of enemy air defences). So rather than having umbrella type coverage, there will be AA coverage in certain areas with the potential for AA being located in areas thought safe - should make any flight into the area a long and twisting flight, probably at low level with the added fear that maybe they'll run into something!

[Olefin]

FYI ethanol has been used for aircraft fuel -

Alcohol, alcohol mixtures, and other alternative fuels may be used experimentally, but alcohol is not permitted in any certified aviation fuel specification.

In Brazil, the Embraer Ipanema EMB-202A is a version of the Ipanema agricultural aircraft with a modified Lycoming IO-540-K1J5 engine so as to be able to run on ethanol.

Other aircraft engines that were modified to run on 100% ethanol were several other types of Lycoming engines (including the Lycoming 235N2C, and Lycoming IO-320 and certain Rotax engines

Thus it can be done - its not as good as jet fuel or avgas but it can be done

[Olefin]

FYI if you are looking for some interesting aircraft for a scenario in the US keep in mind a couple of places

Berlin Airlift Historical Foundation - home based - Winston Salem NC

Both aircraft are fully operational

C-97G
C-54

National Warplane Museum - Geneseo, NY

Multiple aircraft, many of which are operational, including a C-45, a C-47, an Aeronca L-16 and a Ryan Navion.

[Vespers War]

FYI if you are looking for some interesting aircraft for a scenario in the US keep in mind a couple of places

Berlin Airlift Historical Foundation - home based - Winston Salem NC

Both aircraft are fully operational

C-97G
C-54

National Warplane Museum - Geneseo, NY

Multiple aircraft, many of which are operational, including a C-45, a C-47, an Aeronca L-16 and a Ryan Navion.

There are a lot of oddball museums that have numerous flyable aircraft. In Red Hook, NY, there's the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome, which has flyable aircraft including a Bleriot XI, repro Curtiss Model D, repro 1910 Hanriot, repro Albatros D.Va, repro Caudron G.III, Curtiss Jenny, repro Fokker D.VII, repro Fokker Dr.I, Curtiss Wright Junior CW-1, DeHavilland DH.82 Tiger Moth, New Standard D-25, and repro Ryan NYP (Spirit of St. Louis).

Down in Polk City, FL, Kermit Weeks' collection of aircraft at Fantasy of Flight includes one of two remaining high-wing Stinson Tri-Motors, a B-25J, and a Short Sunderland, all of which are generally in flying condition, as well as a bunch of fighters and a ton of spare parts (last time I was there, he had a dozen or so P-38 engines even though he doesn't own a P-38). I know this one has been mentioned in the past when discussing Central Florida.

Florida also has Valiant Air Command at the TiCo (Titusville-Cocoa) Airport. Right now, their flyable aircraft include a repro Dr.I, a C-47 Skytrain, a B-25J Mitchell, a Twin Mustang, and an OV-10D Bronco.

In Bealeton, VA, there's the Flying Circus Aerodrome, which has at least a half-dozen Stearmans, a couple Waco F trainers, four Piper Cubs, and some aerobatic planes. This might be a bit better for maintainability, since there's commonality of aircraft to allow cannibalizing.

Also in Virginia, but over on the coast at Virginia Beach, is the Military Aviation Museum, with a pair of Fokker D.VII, a bunch of other Fokkers, Halberstadt CL.IV, a repro ME-262, P-40, FG-1D Corsair, P-51D, Bf-109, Hurricane, the only airworthy MiG-3, Spitfire, Yak-3M, repro Fw 190A-8, original Fw 190A-8, the only remaining Polikarpov I-15bis, a 1939 Polikarpov I-16, and a Lend-Lease P-63 Kingcobra. For larger planes, there's a Tante Ju, a B-25, and a PBY Catalina. Almost everything is flyable.

The Air Heritage Museum of Beaver Falls, PA, started out by repairing a damaged B-17G and has a small collection of mostly airworthy planes, with the big ones being a C-123K and a C-47B. They also have a T-28, a T-34, a Cub, and a Funk B-75-L.

[cawest]

just google "warbird for sale", or "fly a warbird". that will give a you an idea of what might be out their.

[Raellus]

It's unlikely that any of these would still be in the air in 2000 (T2k timeline), but it seems likely that this program would have been revived as the US entered WWIII as a relatively quick and inexpensive supplement to the sexier but more pricey F-16.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/34709/flight-tester-explains-how-ya-7f-strikefighter-was-really-a-jet-recycling-program

I'll definitely be including the A-7F in my T2kU.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That was an interesting piece that I think particularly highlights the creativity and abilities of the people involved (I'm thinking particularly of the situation with the horizontal tail units). Thanks for posting the link.
The A-7F was an aircraft that should have been in the inventory (in my not really relevant opinion haha!)
That the F-16 was constantly suggested for certain roles over better candidates (e.g. the proposal to replace the A-10 with a variant of the F-16...), the rejection of the A-7F appears to be another example that shows just how deeply politics and fashion are ingrained in military equipment purchasing.

[Raellus]

That was an interesting piece that I think particularly highlights the creativity and abilities of the people involved (I'm thinking particularly of the situation with the horizontal tail units). Thanks for posting the link.
The A-7F was an aircraft that should have been in the inventory (in my not really relevant opinion haha!)
That the F-16 was constantly suggested for certain roles over better candidates (e.g. the proposal to replace the A-10 with a variant of the F-16...), the rejection of the A-7F appears to be another example that shows just how deeply politics and fashion are ingrained in military equipment purchasing.

You're right- there's a lot of politics and money in equipment adoption. I reckon that in WW3, with aircraft attrition rates high and manufacturing of the most up-to-date models lagging behind, that any viable stopgap measures would be taken. At that point, the gov't would be throwing money at any company with the capability of putting more wings in the air. The A-7 airframes already exist so it seems like a very sensible shortcut.

[rcaf_777]

Another Option strange that no one as talked about UAV

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You're right- there's a lot of politics and money in equipment adoption. I reckon that in WW3, with aircraft attrition rates high and manufacturing of the most up-to-date models lagging behind, that any viable stopgap measures would be taken. At that point, the gov't would be throwing money at any company with the capability of putting more wings in the air. The A-7 airframes already exist so it seems like a very sensible shortcut.
I agree, I think with the harsh realities of war, there won't be much room for building political careers within the military higher ranks. The cronyism and favouritism would probably die off pretty quick (by that I mean things such as big military equipment manufacturers offering jobs upon retirement from the military, to senior officers who just happened to be on the purchasing committee).

[Legbreaker]

The cronyism and favouritism would probably die off pretty quick...

Unfortunately you only have to look at WWII to see how unlikely that would be. :(

[rcaf_777]

I little background

Storage procedures

There are four categories of storage for aircraft at AMARG:

Long Term (Type 1000) – Aircraft are kept intact for future use

Parts Reclamation (Type 2000) – Aircraft are kept, picked apart and used for spare parts

Flying Hold (Type 3000) – Aircraft are kept intact for shorter stays than Long Term

Excess of DoD needs (Type 4000) – Aircraft are sold off whole or in parts

On average, AMARG annually returns approximately $500 million worth of spare parts to military, government and allied customers.

An aircraft going into storage undergoes the following treatments:

Ejection seat charges and classified hardware are removed.

All aircraft are carefully washed with fresh water to remove environment residue and then allowed to dry.

The fuel system is protected by draining it, refilling it with lightweight oil, running engines to coat fuel system plumbing and engines, and then draining it again. This leaves a protective oil film.

The aircraft is sealed from dust, sunlight, and high temperatures. This is done using a variety of materials, including a high tech vinyl plastic compound that is sprayed on the aircraft. This compound is called Spraylat after its producer the Spraylat Corporation, and is applied in two coats, a black coat that seals the aircraft and a white coat that reflects the sun and helps to keep internal temperatures low.

The plane is then towed by a tug to its designated "storage" position.

On average the Group annually receives 300 aircraft for storage and processes out about the same number (with 50 to 100 of those returning to flying service). Aircraft that fly again either return to the U.S. Military services, U.S. government agencies (such as the U.S. Coast Guard, U.S. Forest Service, and NASA) or are sold to allied governments under the Foreign Military Sales program.

Mid 90’s Inventory

Aircraft

18 Douglas A-4 Skyhawk
1 Douglas A-3 Skywarrior (Photo Recon)
67 Grumman A-6 Intruder
117 LTV A-7 Corsair II
177 Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II
1 Lockheed AC-130
11 AT-38B Talon
7 McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II
98 Boeing B-52 Stratofortress (Cut to pieces)*As per START Treaty*
1 Martin B-57E Canberra
18 Grumman C-1 Trader
6 Grumman C-2 Greyhound
2 Fairchild C-123 Provider
15 Lockheed C-130 Hercules
12 Convair C-131 Samaritan
51 Boeing C-137 Stratoliner
21 T-39 Sabreliner
1 Lockheed DC-130
1 DF-4J Director Aircraft (F-4 Variant)
21 E-2 Hawkeye
5 Douglas A-3 Skywarrior (Tanker Variant)
1 Lockheed EP-3
1 Douglas A-3 Skywarrior (Electronic Aggressor Variant)
176 McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II
45 Grumman F-14 Tomcat
96 McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle
177 General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon
1 North American F-100 Super Sabre (NASA Test Platform)
1 McDonnell F-101 Voodoo
1 Republic F-105 Thunderchief
2 Convair F-106 Delta Dart
119 General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark
15 General Dynamics FB-111A Aardvark (Strategic Bomber Variant)
1 McDonnell Douglas FA-18A Hornet
2 Dassault HU-25 Guardian
14 Grumman A-6 Intruder (Tanker Variant)
53 Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker
2 Douglas A-3 Skywarrior(Testing Platform)
1 NC-130B (C-130 Test Platform)
2 NF-4E (F-4 Phantom II Test Platform)
5 Boeing NKC-135A Airborne Laser Lab
1 McDonnell NRF-4C Phantom II
1 T-39 Sabreliner (Testing Platform)
25 Cessna O-2 Skymaster
12 Douglas A-4 Skyhawk (Forward Aircraft Controller Variant)
10 North American Rockwell OV-10 Bronco
75 Lockheed P-3 Orion
3 Lockheed P-3 Orion (MAD Variant)
176 McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II (Tactical Recon Variant)
17 Lockheed S-3 Viking
3 Lockheed P-2 Neptune
1 Raytheon T-1 Jayhawk
61 North American T-2 Buckeye
61 Lockheed T-33
3 Beechcraft T-34 Mentor
47 Cessna T-37 Tweet
95 Northrop T-38 Talon
23 T-39 Sabreliner
1 Fairchild T-46
3 Douglas A-3 Skywarrior (Bomber Trainer)
132 Douglas A-4 Skyhawk(Trainer)
8 LTV A-7 Corsair II (Two Seat Trainer)
5 McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II (Two Seat Trainer)
5 Gulfstream TC-4C Academe
2 General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon (Two Seat Trainer)
1 Douglas UA-3B Skywarrior (Photo Recon Variant)
19 Fairchild C-123 Provider(Crop Duster Variant)
7 Lockheed UP-3A Transport
1 Grumman US-2B Target Tug
5 Martin RB-57D Canberra
1 Lockheed WC-130 Weather Recon
1 Boeing WC-135B Weather Recon
1 Boeing YC-14
1 McDonnell Douglas YC-15

Total: 2,170

Missiles

19 BGM-109G Ground Launched Cruise Missile(Deactivated) *keep in this condition as per INF Treaty*
31 LGM-25C Titan II (Deactivated)

Total: 50

Drones

5 Lockheed D-21 Drone

Total: 5

Helicopters

28 Bell AH-1 Cobra
8 Bell UH-1 Iroquois
8 Bell HH-1K
3 Bell TH-57A Sea Ranger
86 Kaman SH-2 Seasprite
1 Sikorsky UH-3 Sea King (Cargo)
13 Sikorsky HH-3E Jolly Green Giant
3 Sikorsky CH-3 Long Range Transport
41 Sikorsky CH-53 Sea Stallion
1 Sikorsky VH-34C Transport

Total: 192

Grand Total: 2,417

Web Sources

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/309th_Aerospace_Maintenance_and_Regeneration_Group #Storage_procedures

http://www.amarcexperience.com/ui/index.php?option=com_content&view=featured&Itemid=101

[Hybris]

I little background

Storage procedures

There are four categories of storage for aircraft at AMARG:

Long Term (Type 1000) – Aircraft are kept intact for future use

Parts Reclamation (Type 2000) – Aircraft are kept, picked apart and used for spare parts

Flying Hold (Type 3000) – Aircraft are kept intact for shorter stays than Long Term

Excess of DoD needs (Type 4000) – Aircraft are sold off whole or in parts

On average, AMARG annually returns approximately $500 million worth of spare parts to military, government and allied customers.

An aircraft going into storage undergoes the following treatments:

Ejection seat charges and classified hardware are removed.

All aircraft are carefully washed with fresh water to remove environment residue and then allowed to dry.

The fuel system is protected by draining it, refilling it with lightweight oil, running engines to coat fuel system plumbing and engines, and then draining it again. This leaves a protective oil film.

The aircraft is sealed from dust, sunlight, and high temperatures. This is done using a variety of materials, including a high tech vinyl plastic compound that is sprayed on the aircraft. This compound is called Spraylat after its producer the Spraylat Corporation, and is applied in two coats, a black coat that seals the aircraft and a white coat that reflects the sun and helps to keep internal temperatures low.

The plane is then towed by a tug to its designated "storage" position.

On average the Group annually receives 300 aircraft for storage and processes out about the same number (with 50 to 100 of those returning to flying service). Aircraft that fly again either return to the U.S. Military services, U.S. government agencies (such as the U.S. Coast Guard, U.S. Forest Service, and NASA) or are sold to allied governments under the Foreign Military Sales program.

Mid 90’s Inventory

Aircraft

18 Douglas A-4 Skyhawk
1 Douglas A-3 Skywarrior (Photo Recon)
67 Grumman A-6 Intruder
117 LTV A-7 Corsair II
177 Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II
1 Lockheed AC-130
11 AT-38B Talon
7 McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II
98 Boeing B-52 Stratofortress (Cut to pieces)*As per START Treaty*
1 Martin B-57E Canberra
18 Grumman C-1 Trader
6 Grumman C-2 Greyhound
2 Fairchild C-123 Provider
15 Lockheed C-130 Hercules
12 Convair C-131 Samaritan
51 Boeing C-137 Stratoliner
21 T-39 Sabreliner
1 Lockheed DC-130
1 DF-4J Director Aircraft (F-4 Variant)
21 E-2 Hawkeye
5 Douglas A-3 Skywarrior (Tanker Variant)
1 Lockheed EP-3
1 Douglas A-3 Skywarrior (Electronic Aggressor Variant)
176 McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II
45 Grumman F-14 Tomcat
96 McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle
177 General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon
1 North American F-100 Super Sabre (NASA Test Platform)
1 McDonnell F-101 Voodoo
1 Republic F-105 Thunderchief
2 Convair F-106 Delta Dart
119 General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark
15 General Dynamics FB-111A Aardvark (Strategic Bomber Variant)
1 McDonnell Douglas FA-18A Hornet
2 Dassault HU-25 Guardian
14 Grumman A-6 Intruder (Tanker Variant)
53 Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker
2 Douglas A-3 Skywarrior(Testing Platform)
1 NC-130B (C-130 Test Platform)
2 NF-4E (F-4 Phantom II Test Platform)
5 Boeing NKC-135A Airborne Laser Lab
1 McDonnell NRF-4C Phantom II
1 T-39 Sabreliner (Testing Platform)
25 Cessna O-2 Skymaster
12 Douglas A-4 Skyhawk (Forward Aircraft Controller Variant)
10 North American Rockwell OV-10 Bronco
75 Lockheed P-3 Orion
3 Lockheed P-3 Orion (MAD Variant)
176 McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II (Tactical Recon Variant)
17 Lockheed S-3 Viking
3 Lockheed P-2 Neptune
1 Raytheon T-1 Jayhawk
61 North American T-2 Buckeye
61 Lockheed T-33
3 Beechcraft T-34 Mentor
47 Cessna T-37 Tweet
95 Northrop T-38 Talon
23 T-39 Sabreliner
1 Fairchild T-46
3 Douglas A-3 Skywarrior (Bomber Trainer)
132 Douglas A-4 Skyhawk(Trainer)
8 LTV A-7 Corsair II (Two Seat Trainer)
5 McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II (Two Seat Trainer)
5 Gulfstream TC-4C Academe
2 General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon (Two Seat Trainer)
1 Douglas UA-3B Skywarrior (Photo Recon Variant)
19 Fairchild C-123 Provider(Crop Duster Variant)
7 Lockheed UP-3A Transport
1 Grumman US-2B Target Tug
5 Martin RB-57D Canberra
1 Lockheed WC-130 Weather Recon
1 Boeing WC-135B Weather Recon
1 Boeing YC-14
1 McDonnell Douglas YC-15

Total: 2,170

Missiles

19 BGM-109G Ground Launched Cruise Missile(Deactivated) *keep in this condition as per INF Treaty*
31 LGM-25C Titan II (Deactivated)

Total: 50

Drones

5 Lockheed D-21 Drone

Total: 5

Helicopters

28 Bell AH-1 Cobra
8 Bell UH-1 Iroquois
8 Bell HH-1K
3 Bell TH-57A Sea Ranger
86 Kaman SH-2 Seasprite
1 Sikorsky UH-3 Sea King (Cargo)
13 Sikorsky HH-3E Jolly Green Giant
3 Sikorsky CH-3 Long Range Transport
41 Sikorsky CH-53 Sea Stallion
1 Sikorsky VH-34C Transport

Total: 192

Grand Total: 2,417

Web Sources

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/309th_Aerospace_Maintenance_and_Regeneration_Group #Storage_procedures

http://www.amarcexperience.com/ui/index.php?option=com_content&view=featured&Itemid=101


How old is this great list?
Is it from October 2005?

I printed out the whole inventory around 1999-2000 but i cant found them atm.In i know i took out some AC 130s from that list and used in UK.

edit: Is the whole inventory online again?

All planes (AC-130s) appears so "freshly" arrived.

http://www.amarcexperience.com/ui/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=205&Itemid=274

[mpipes]

That definitely is NOT an accurate list for the late 90s. BUFFs were intact till 2000 if I recall correctly. There were also numbers of B-52D/E/Fs still in storage in the late '90s as well as LOTS of F-4D/E/J/Ss.

[ChalkLine]

I had an electonics tech tell me this once... If you knew the EMP was on it's way, there is a way to prepare yourself for it. <snip interesting post for brevity>

This is true but you have to remember that if the vehicle is large enough the wiring in it acts like an antenna. It will build up enough charge to sap your electronics even if unhooked.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

But from the 1980s on most Western military vehicles, ships and aircraft had some sort of electromagnetic shielding in recognition of the fact that EMP was a consideration on the battlefield.
Even civilian aircraft have some protection against EMP because they have to be able to withstand lightning strikes directly hitting the aircraft.

[rcaf_777]

That definitely is NOT an accurate list for the late 90s. BUFFs were intact till 2000 if I recall correctly. There were also numbers of B-52D/E/Fs still in storage in the late '90s as well as LOTS of F-4D/E/J/Ss.

If you go to second link

http://www.amarcexperience.com/ui/in...red&Itemid=101

You find the inventory docs, which will list the arrival dates for each aircraft, since many asked what would be the inventory in TW, you have to remove any aircraft that arrive prior to the Mid 90's as they would in service of some sort. Please read the whole post

Remember what the purpose of this Bone Yard is. I don see a lot aircraft left in there come 2000, and those are left would must be hulks striped of useful parts. Any force arriving there would hardly have the means to get any amount of aircraft back to airworthiness even with the local maintenance shops and there is still the issue of fuel.