What to do with the 43,000 troops and dependents from Going Home?

[agrikk]

I've been struggling with what happens to Norfolk and places beyond when the 43,000 combat-weary troops and dependents come home from Europe at the conclusion of Going Home.

All we really know about Norfolk VA is that it was nuked (per Howling Wilderness) and that orders come from there at the beginning of Armies of the Night sending them to NY.

We know that the area around Norfolk "currently supports a small (and shrinking) Milgov enclave, consisting mostly of troops brought back from Europe in late 2000."


What happens to the troops who arrive? Who was there to greet them?

I assume a lot of folks don't want to stay in the Army and want to return home. What happens to them? Are they disarmed and escorted to a gate with a "have a nice day"? Are any convoys organized to get folks back to the West Coast? with what fuel?

The logistics of the sudden arrival of 43,000 people can't be overlooked, and yet the modules and all the source material treat them as if they vanish into thin air as soon as they get off the boat.

Never mind that the majority of these 43,000 people are combat veterans and who are basically broke and gearless (thanks to the 100kg limit imposed). Unless something is done about these folks in an organized fashion, the surrounding countryside is about to get blasted with a nomad population who all know how to use a firearm.

Does anyone have any ideas about what to do with this mob?

[ArmySGT.]

I am sure some G1 staffers will be segregating them as they arrive.

Army to hangar 1
Air Force Hanger 2
Marines Hangar 3
Navy Hangar 4
Coast Guard 5
DOD Civilians 6
All Family Members stay with your Military Member.

The will be food, facilities and Members of YOUR Branch to answer your questions.

Amtrak will get pressed into Service (it Govt) as Troop trains. Service Members may get separated fast and find themselves on the way to a new front.

[agrikk]

Oooh! Amtrak! I'd totally forgotten about it as a resource.

What a great idea. A few trains run to get the bulk of troops out of the area will be a great way to thin out the herd...

[Legbreaker]

The following threads have all dealt with this to some degree or other.
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2408
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2088
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=1957
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=1745

There is evidence to say the bulk of the returning soldiers were demobilised, weapons and other military equipment confiscated and the new civilians essentially just shown the door.

All Family Members stay with your Military Member.

So what happens with say a navy man married to a air force woman? ;)

Trains aren't really going to be much of an option with major transportation hubs nuked (not to mention where the troops landed in the first place). They might get a few dozen, maybe a hundred miles, but that's about it before they hit a section of impassible (without major work) track. Besides, the military got tens of thousands of people back to the US, for those they've demobilised, that's about where their responsibilty to them ends.

[pmulcahy11b]

So what happens with say a navy man married to a air force woman? ;)



Even IRL, that's been a big problem for a long time. Even if the military members are in the same branch of service. The military tries their best to station married service members as near as possible to each other, but officially, there are no guarantees.

Old saying in the Army: "If the Army wanted you to have a wife, they'd issue you one."

[pmulcahy11b]

Does anyone have any ideas about what to do with this mob?

Ummm...serve them up in a light wine sauce and with a side of fava beans?:D

[Legbreaker]

Agreed, it's a crappy situation with the marriage almost certainly doomed to fail IRL. In T2K on the other hand, at least by 2000, it doesn't seem as much of a problem. Without planes to service and fly, the air force personnel are twiddling their thumbs, and so are naval crew. Both are likely to find themselves either demobilised (most likely) or seconded to the Army.

[Targan]

Are any convoys organized to get folks back to the West Coast? with what fuel?Ha! Umm, no, I don't think so. Most or all of that journey would be done at a level of technology of the steam era or earlier (and I don't mean the time before Valve's excellent online games delivery system). As in, wagon trains. I think if MILGOV or CIVGOV wanted to send a small team to the west coast it would be a pretty major undertaking. Sending, say, 15,000 people? It's... well it's just not going to happen.

I could see a lot of semi-official organisations springing up to try to organise people into groups with mutual interests, traveling from Norfolk to certain far away locations for instance. These would probably (at first) have official sanction and some official assistance. I think MILGOV would try really hard to keep things organised and civilised around Norfolk at first but by mid to late 2001 the authorities would be losing their grip on all but the specified east coast enclaves.

By far and away the best source of canon information about conditions and locations along the east coast from Norfolk to New Jersey post-Going Home is the mini-sourcebook A Rock in Troubled Waters in Challenge Magazine issue #42. It is 9 pages long and far, far more detailed than, say, Howling Wildernes. It is set in early 2001 and contains notable remaining MILGOV units, major militia and maurauder groups and even some of the remaining naval assets being operated by MILGOV between Virginia and New Jersey.

This is the opening section of A Rock in Troubled Waters:

"The coastal settlements around south Jersey's shores form a region of small communities that has managed to survive the war relatively intact. This is one of the more stable and lucrative areas held by MILGOV. This article provdes a detailed reference of the area, centering on the Intracoastal Waterway - the most reliable local avenue in the year 2001 - used by slow-moving military and civilian traffic. It is also designed to tie the Going Home module with any adventure set in the northeastern United States. A Rock in Troubled Water (set in early 2001) details and territory and notable clusters of civilization from the Delaware Canal and Cape Henlopen in Delaware, north and east across Pennsylvania and New Jersey to Perth Amboy. This includes Philadelphia, Trenton, Wilmington, Cape May Naval Base, Fort Dix, and Tom's River Naval Station. Also covered are the specifications on several "brown water navy" vessels, as well as the state government and militia system for New Jersey (as organized by MILGOV)."

The Challenge magazine articles and mini modules for T2K were a huge resource of canon material (and they ARE officially canon). Discussions like the ones contained in this thread are likely to fall into two main divisions, those of people with the Challenge mags and those without.

When I was running that part of my last campaign involving the PCs traveling from Norfolk to NYC A Rock in Troubled Waters proved absolutely invaluable. Other Challenge articles very useful for east coast play include Rifle River (covers Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island and has excellent details on a big chunk of the remnants of the USCG and the 43 Military Police Brigade), Pennsylvania Crude (covers a largely civilian operation to uncap an old Pennsylvanian oil well), and Strangers in a Strange Land (an excellent mini-adventure about a maurauder band made up of escaped WARPAC POWs roaming around New Jersey). They are all contained in the Challenge mag issues 25 to #50 (issue #50 contains a fantastic index of all the articles to that point). I haven't completed my own index of the issues past 50 yet and I don't have the time right now to trawl through them. There are probably other mini-sourcebooks and mini-modules relevant to this discussion contained in issues #51+.

I would also direct your attention to the essay in Challenge issue #25 titled What Do We Do Now? which offers some great ideas about the choices soldiers returning from the Twilight War are faced with. The article Wilderness Travel and Pursuit contained in Challenge issue #28 is also very useful. Look, there are 55 T2K articles and mini-modules contained in Challenge issues 25 to 50. There are probably a similar number of T2K articles and mini-modules contained in Challenge issues 51 to 77 (the last one published). If you don't have this excellent source of T2K material then I can't urge you strongly enough to obtain them.

[Fusilier]

Although it can't realistically handle a large fraction of all of those troops, there are military convoys between Norfolk and Muskogee (Oklahoma), by way of Greensboro, Nashville, Memphis and Little Rock.

-Allegheny Uprising

[Legbreaker]

My guess is that there might be only a dozen seats or so available on any one convoy. Much of the space would be taken up by stores, spare fuel, and escorting troops.

[LAW0306]

Check out chico's page. two years of work went into what he came up with.

[Targan]

Check out chico's page.

Good suggestion Law. Maybe you could post a link for the new guys? (I'm at work and don't have access to my 'favorites' list on my internet browser).

[Mohoender]

May I ask naive questions?

What the point of bringing all these 43000 personnels home (with at least their hand weapons) and sacrifice what is left of available ressources simply to demobilize them and, then, throw them out, barehands, in the mess that has become the USA?

If something can be granted to Milgov is that it always did its best to keep its troops alive and back home? Why would it, as a final act, sacrifices all these same troops?

Back to 1940. Belgian soldiers in France were taken into custody in the region of Camargue (St Marie de la Mer). Although, the Belgian troops where deprive of all weapons (Belgium already capitulated), it was planned to use them to manage supplies (until France in turn capitulated).

Also in 1940, 10,000 French troops had been brought to UK after Dunkirk. The British government wanted to throw them out. The new Free French authorities negociated the right to ask them to stay and fight: 400 accepted while the others left for France. In the meantime, British troops that had been brought back from Dunkirk (with much less than 100kg of gears) were immediately issued new assignments; UK still had a war to fight and its homeland to defend.

In 2000, Milgov still has a war to fight and its homeland to defend.:confused:

[Chris]

Look, there are 55 T2K articles and mini-modules contained in Challenge issues 25 to 50. There are probably a similar number of T2K articles and mini-modules contained in Challenge issues 51 to 77 (the last one published). If you don't have this excellent source of T2K material then I can't urge you strongly enough to obtain them.

The Twilight v1.0 and v2.2 CDs at http://www.farfuture.net/cdroms.html contain all the Challenege articles for the given game system at $35.00 each as well as all the modules, rules and supplements you counld want in PDF format. I picked them both up a few months as I was having trouble finding some of my old gaming stuff.

Still can't find Armies of the Night in my pile of stuff.

[Adm.Lee]

I always figured they would try to organize some new units around volunteers, and take a lot more and organize them to go home.

For instance, everyone from Maryland (pretty close to Norfolk) has the option of rapid demobilization, and will get delivered to their county seat. From there, they may be on their own to get home, but I would try to set up some kind of militia from the veterans to suppress marauders/bandits/New America once they settle down.

Folks from Colorado, well, it's a long walk, are you sure you wouldn't rather be in the Regulars?

I can't see Amtrak being much of a resource, as much as I love trains. If the infrastructure were still in good shape and there was fuel, sure. The railnet may be one of the first things to try to get running, IMO. What I can see would be big road convoys moving along the interstates to get to states further west. If someplace is not under control, then it might have to get bypassed.

One of my inspirations is the soldier colonies the Romans used to pay off their veterans: you get land, but promise to keep your arms clean in case we need you (or your son, as the case may be). I think a lot of places are going to have to keep armed militias/sheriff's posses available for a decade or so.

[Targan]

I've now mostly completed my own index of the T2K articles contained in Challenge Magazine issues 51 to 77. I'll probably eventually include issues 25 to 50 because my index is a bit more comprehensive that the one contained in Challege issue 50 (I've included columns for a basic outline of the topic of the article, the type of article it is such as mini-module or new equipment for instance, and whether it's for T2K, Merc: 2000 or both, as well as issue number and page number).

The mini-module Westward Ho! in Challenge #57 is about a MILGOV-sponsored migration of the population of Jamesville, Kentucky to the outskirts of Memphis, Tennesee. So obviously during 2001 MILGOV was prepared to help move fairly large numbers of people around, for the purposes of consolidating and protecting loyalist populations (and moving people to areas where it is easier to feed them). I could definitely envisage arrangements whereby troops debarking in Norfolk might be encouraged to join local security forces (militia/police/sheriff's departments etc) engaged in protecting such movements of people, especially if the people being moved were from the same home areas as the troops being demobbed.

The mini-modules The Lima Incident (Challenge #56) and A Little Recon Mission (Challenge #58) are linked and are set in Ohio. They involve the PCs being formed into a Special Operations Group by CIVGOV. In the first adventure the PCs are tasked with securing a very valuable prize in Lima, Ohio. In the second the PCs are sent to infiltrate Wright-Patterson AFB to gather intel on a MILGOV operation in Kentucky (also with a valuable prize at stake). I won't reveal the goodies in either adventure in case players read this (and I don't know how to set up spoiler commands in this forum!).

[pmulcahy11b]

I don't see them being tossed out on their ear. The members of the military, however, will probably find out when they get to Norfolk that there is no discharge awaiting them -- they've been indefinitely Stop-Lossed. Many won't happy with that and there will be a rash of desertions -- and those will be written off as a loss. There will be a hard press, especially with troops that have dependents, that staying with the military will be the best way to take care of themselves and dependents, and to a large extent, that will be true. That press will start off almost immediately upon leaving Bremerhaven; the interior walls of the ship will have a lot of posters and notes to that end, and they'll hear a lot of counseling to that end.

[ArmySGT.]

I can't see Amtrak being much of a resource, as much as I love trains. If the infrastructure were still in good shape and there was fuel, sure. The railnet may be one of the first things to try to get running, IMO. What I can see would be big road convoys moving along the interstates to get to states further west. If someplace is not under control, then it might have to get bypassed.



While Amtrak is a craptastic .gov entity it rents time on the rails as those are private property. Even though a large rail hub may be nuked out of existence, there are all sorts of side lines that branch around a service small communities especially farm.

Alot of Rail road equipment and infrastructure will survive too as it is based in small towns too.

Rail would jump at the chance to become a people hauling entity again. There is something like 40 passenger cars in Puelbo sitting on a siding as it is not lucrative enough to run them.

The is even an operating Steam Locomotive that runs just for fans, the Toltec - Cumbres line.

[Legbreaker]

One of the main reasons I can see Milgov bringing people home for is to increase their legitimacy. 43,000 people who owe their lives to Milgov is a LOT of votes and they can count on about 99% of them should they be needed.

While it's true many of the troops will be retained in service, does the military really want to remain responsible for the crippled? What about the civilians and the foriegn nationals? Does the military really want to hang onto people who no longer have a military value such as UAV pilots? Some yes, but only the best of them.

Milgov also can't feed that many people, and certainly can't transport them to Texas or Alaska where the war continues on a low level. Demobilisation in my mind is a better option than trying to hold on to everyone and instead loosing them all the desertion. Demobilisation strips away all the items of military value, desertion is a complete loss.

Many veterans will be happy to jump at demobilisation too. They've been fighting for roughly five years, most without visiting home even once, and none with a word from their familiy in years. Staying in the military and being ordered to go places and do things they really don't want to do isn't going to hold a lot of attraction when they have no idea if home is still in one peice of a smouldering crater.

[Webstral]

Chico and the DC Group addressed the demobilization issue essentially by claiming it wouldn't happen. We've had lengthy discussions about characters' motivations for staying versus leaving. We need to bear in mind that there is no precedent for the circumstances US military personnel find when they get home. Crispy as these critters are likely to be, they aren't going to get out of the service, go home, and sit by the window and drink for a year. As the first sergeant in the v1 rules remarks, this is worse than the A Shau (sp?) because this is everywhere. Where exactly do the demobilized types think they are going to go, and how exactly do they think they are going to get there?

All that said, I could see Milgov offering transport to New Jersey (thanks for bringing that up). Tens of thousands of relatively young and fit Americans who possess a variety of skills desperately needed by the society have a value beyond calculation. Let's be honest, too: the ones who do get out can expect to be drafted into the local militia wherever they go.

Paul, I agree that the propaganda machine will be working overtime to get as many to stay as possible. These people are gold. Thomason of Fort Huachuca would love to get his hands on five hundred of them, but even I can’t imagine any way for that to happen. Deserters from Division Cuba have a better chance of reaching southern Arizona than OMEGA troops.

One of my inspirations is the soldier colonies the Romans used to pay off their veterans: you get land, but promise to keep your arms clean in case we need you (or your son, as the case may be).

Essentially, this means being “demobilized” into a reservist. This could be an okay deal. The chance to find a place in a surviving Milgov enclave, meet a woman, and worry about mundane things like getting enough to eat might be very attractive to veterans from Europe.

The idea of transporting veterans from Europe, addressed here and there in Howling Wilderness, brings up some questions. We know from Howling Wilderness that some veterans reach 78th ID in New Jersey. We know some reach the Milgov command along the middle Mississippi. This fact rather strongly implies that the Navy still has some ability to move men and supplies along the Atlantic and Gulf seaboards. I’ve always felt that the description of movement to New London, CT in The Last Submarine was overly dramatic. Fuel oil for small warships might be short, but surely the Navy would have gotten in the habit of “drafting” sailing vessels of all sizes fairly promptly after the TDM. Dropping a dozen men along the coast can’t be that hard for a sailing vessel (depending, of course, on the coast in question).

The foregoing makes me think that the Navy must be maintaining a number of its bases along the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts as defended way stations, if we are to believe that traffic from Norfolk can reach Arkansas with any degree of reliability. There are some interesting implications in all of this. The Sea Lord of Jacksonville seems that much more of a problem in this light. He who can interdict sea traffic between the mid-Atlantic states and the Gulf is in a position to very seriously affect the future of the nation. Hm. Traditionally, I’ve thought of the Sea Lord as an interesting creation of no real consequence. Suddenly, I’m seeing him as a major threat in need of being dealt with. Perhaps we know what the first mission will be for those Omegamen who stay in the service.

[Targan]

Will it be 43,000 people dropped off in Norfolk anyway? I can't remember off-hand whether that figure is the total shipped out of Bremerhaven (I'm pretty sure it is) or the total number that arrives at Norfolk. Somewhere in canon I'm pretty sure it says that many thousands of the TF34 troops are diverted to the Middle East theater as reinforcements. Also there would probably be small sub-convoys sent immediately out from Bremerhaven to bring reinforcements to some of the MILGOV enclaves up and down the east coast of the US.

Another subgroup of the returning troops that need to be considered are those who wish to remain as soldiers fighting for the US, but want to do it under the control of CIVGOV. Admittedly, most troops serving overseas would have had very little accurate information about the MILGOV-CIVGOV split. More information would be available once they got back to the US but it would be heavily skewed by MILGOV propaganda. Still, some service men and women would have deeply held ideological or political reasons for wanting to defect to CIVGOV. No doubt MILGOV authorities in Norfolk would have programs in place to dissuade returning troops from taking such a course.

[Legbreaker]

6,000 went directly to the middle east as reinforcements. Chances are they went directly there without going any further west than Wales.
My guess is that of the remaining numbers, there's no way they'd all be landed at the same location. The bulk of say 75% may have, but those units listed in canon as receiving reinforcements were probably the "port of first call" for those troops.
I believe Going Home states there was enough fuel for a one way trip (could be wrong on that) and the ships engines would be effectively ruined by running on the crude, which to me means most of the organisation about who was going where occurred back in Germany. It seems unlikely everyone would go to Norfolk only to be processed and re-board ships with limited to non-existent fuel for another port. Just considering food and shelter requirements for so many people in one previously nuked place puts that idea firmly into the realm of fantasy.

[Targan]

The idea of transporting veterans from Europe, addressed here and there in Howling Wilderness, brings up some questions. We know from Howling Wilderness that some veterans reach 78th ID in New Jersey. We know some reach the Milgov command along the middle Mississippi. This fact rather strongly implies that the Navy still has some ability to move men and supplies along the Atlantic and Gulf seaboards. I’ve always felt that the description of movement to New London, CT in The Last Submarine was overly dramatic. Fuel oil for small warships might be short, but surely the Navy would have gotten in the habit of “drafting” sailing vessels of all sizes fairly promptly after the TDM. Dropping a dozen men along the coast can’t be that hard for a sailing vessel (depending, of course, on the coast in question).

Once again I direct your attention to the mini-sourcebook A Rock in Troubled Waters in Challenge Magazine issue #42. It talks directly and in some detail about these issues, including land routes being used by MILGOV to move troops and materiel between Norfolk and the New Jersey enclave, and what fighting vessels MILGOV regularly operates up and down the east coast post-OMEGA.

It's a wealth of information on how MILGOV on the east coast organises things. There is some really good, specific info on the New Jersey enclave controlled by the 78th ID and also on the (really quite powerful) MILGOV assets operating out of Cape May Naval Base (formerly a USCG facility). The New Jersey State Militia is quite a powerful force and A Rock in Troubled Waters has pretty good descriptions of its size, capabilities and component units. The NJSG even has an armored rapid reaction force, the 2nd Cavalry Squadron, NJSG, 50 troopers operating 10 armored bank trucks. The article says "Under New Jersey law all males between the ages of 17 and 25 are liable for service in the state reserve militia, in the event the Governor declares an emergency. The NJSM will under no circumstances venture outside the state".

The Cape May Naval Base is an amazing hub of military might (from a T2K 2001 perspective). It would take me too long to manually type it all out here but let me give you some examples of the resources the MILGOV commander at Cape May has at his disposal:
* The USS Hyman Rickover (formerly the barkentine Gazela of Philadelphia, a sailing vesel with 3 tons of cargo capacity and mounting a 3"/54-cal pedestal-mounted deck gun, 2 x .50 cal HMGs, 2 x Mk19 AGLs and 2 x 81mm mortars;
* USS Bigelow (DD942);
* USS Confidence (WMEC 619);
* 1 X ocean going tug, 4 x inshore patrol craft (PCF), 2 x Cape May/Lewes ferries, 2 x LCM 6 (expedient monitors each armed with 1 x forward turret containing twin-20mm Vulcans, a 20mm or 25mm AC and a Mk19, a midship weapons "bucket" containing an 81mm mortar and a pair of 7.62mm MGs, and a rear turret armed with either twin .50 cal MGs or a 5.56mm minigun/Mk19 combo), 2 x LCM 6 (expedient armored troop carriers), 8 x patrol boats riverine (expedient, 4 with sail/motor and 4 with motor);
* 1 x 10,000-ton tanker (immobile);
* The Red Dragons, a mercenary group of 100 Chinese-American refugees who were formerly a Philadelphia street gang, trained by a cadre of ex-military members (this group is fiercely loyal to the Naval Commander at Cape May and are used as an amphibious strike group);
* Piseck Commando, 18 ex-SWAT members from the Philadelphia and New Jersey State Police (deployed as an amphibious commando unit reporting directly to the Naval Commander at Cape May);
* 301st Independent Battery, 80 ex-military "graybeards" recruited from among refugees who operate 3 x M202 howitzers and 6 x 120mm mortars salvaged from NG and AR armories (provides fire support for CMNB);
* B and C Flights, 112th Naval Aviation Squadron operating 3 x O-2 Cessna twin engine spotter planes each rigged with a 7.62mm MG and 2 x Bell 47G (ex-cropduster) helicopters (it specifically states there is sufficient fuel to fly these aircraft for critical support missions) operating out of CMNB;
*HQ and A Flight, 112th Naval Aviation Squadron operating 2 x P-3 Orions and 2 x O-2 Cessna twin engine spotter planes (the P-3s are unable to fly due to a lack of fuel but are in flyable condition).

I haven't included the extensive regular and militia ground forces at the CMNB commander's disposal.

[Targan]

I believe Going Home states there was enough fuel for a one way trip (could be wrong on that) and the ships engines would be effectively ruined by running on the crude, which to me means most of the organisation about who was going where occurred back in Germany. It seems unlikely everyone would go to Norfolk only to be processed and re-board ships with limited to non-existent fuel for another port. Just considering food and shelter requirements for some many people in one previously nuked place puts that idea firmly into the realm of fantasy.
It's true that there is very little fuel available for the larger naval vesels post-OMEGA. As well as USS Bigelow at CMNB, MILGOV operates USS Mamley (DD940) and USS Blandy (DD943) out of Norfolk post-OMEGA but A Rock in Troubled Waters does specifically state that they rarely put to sea due to a lack of fuel.

[Webstral]

I skimmed "A Rock in Troubled Waters". At the risk of sounding like I’m patting myself on the back, it’s remarkable how similarly the original Twilight: 2000 crowd and I think. Of course, a certain amount of the similarity almost certainly originates from similarities in motive (creation of a post-apocalyptic world that blends realism with good story-telling), culture (Army pukes), and experience (Cold War with some high-temperature peacekeeping, anyone?). My observations about militias backing the listed Army units appear to be borne out. I don’t feel like my emphasis on explaining the relative prosperity of SAMAD is excessive. Blue Two (Second Naval Infantry Battalion, operating in San Francisco Bay) looks downright mainstream now. I could go on, but it’s clear that Thunder Empire, Poseidon’s Rifles, and Silver Shogunate have been moving along parallel tracks to the established material in "A Rock in Troubled Waters". Fascinating.

I love the detail I’ve read so far. I love the thought process. I love that GDW has differentiated so distinctly between locales. New Jersey is a natural place for a large slice of the Omegamen to go.

Regarding shipping, I’m inclined to agree that dropping in excess of 40,000 troops in Virginia Beach over the course of a week may strain local supply. On the other hand, I wonder how much planning really is going to get done in Germany. The units that arrive early can be sorted. The folks that show up late… Well, I suppose the folks who show up late just get sent to eastern Virginia for sorting later. The troops who arrive in a timely fashion may have the luxury of being grouped by destination.

Here I go referring to my own work again… One of my struggles with Poseidon’s Rifles always has been balancing the presence of a pretty substantial military establishment on the coast of Maine with the material in The Last Submarine and the Challenge article on the US Coast Guard in Rhode Island (“Rifle River?”). Very specifically, I’ve had to think hard about how to show that a couple of fairly powerful small warships belonging to First District can fit with the established canon. It’s only years after I started writing Poseidon’s Rifles that the obvious answer for where USCGC Gallatin, the flagship of First District, is in 2000. As soon as Milgov makes the decision to withdraw US troops from Europe (before the summer offensive?), Gallatin is picked to participate. Overhauling the ship, storing up the fuel, making the crossing, waiting waiting waiting… The better part of 2000 might be eaten up with that sort of thing.

[Legbreaker]

On the other hand, I wonder how much planning really is going to get done in Germany. The units that arrive early can be sorted. The folks that show up late… Well, I suppose the folks who show up late just get sent to eastern Virginia for sorting later. The troops who arrive in a timely fashion may have the luxury of being grouped by destination.
I'd say a fair bit of planning will already have been done. I'm sure much of the organisational work will have commenced months before the order was broadcast across Europe (ok, maybe it wouldn't really have started until the 5th ID was confirmed lost and XI Corp cut off, so lets say early to mid August?).
Sorting troops for their eventual destination in Germany is really the only way it can be done. Ship A goes here loaded with these people, Ship B there with those, etc. Late arrivals would be simply shoved onto a couple of ships assigned for the late arrivals and almost certainly sent to Norfolk for latter processing as you've said.
It’s only years after I started writing Poseidon’s Rifles that the obvious answer for where USCGC Gallatin, the flagship of First District, is in 2000. As soon as Milgov makes the decision to withdraw US troops from Europe (before the summer offensive?), Gallatin is picked to participate. Overhauling the ship, storing up the fuel, making the crossing, waiting waiting waiting… The better part of 2000 might be eaten up with that sort of thing.

Works for me, however you might want to hold off sending ships across the pond until August... Having the ships stuck in drydock somewhere during the early part of the year seems to be the best approach to avoid screwing around with canon too much (although it's your creation and you should do what you like).

[Targan]

I skimmed "A Rock in Troubled Waters". At the risk of sounding like I’m patting myself on the back, it’s remarkable how similarly the original Twilight: 2000 crowd and I think. Of course, a certain amount of the similarity almost certainly originates from similarities in motive (creation of a post-apocalyptic world that blends realism with good story-telling), culture (Army pukes), and experience (Cold War with some high-temperature peacekeeping, anyone?). My observations about militias backing the listed Army units appear to be borne out. I don’t feel like my emphasis on explaining the relative prosperity of SAMAD is excessive. Blue Two (Second Naval Infantry Battalion, operating in San Francisco Bay) looks downright mainstream now. I could go on, but it’s clear that Thunder Empire, Poseidon’s Rifles, and Silver Shogunate have been moving along parallel tracks to the established material in "A Rock in Troubled Waters". Fascinating.
There's no need to be modest. I greatly admire your work and I long ago decided to add your Thunder Empire and Silver Shogunate work lock, stock and barrel into my campaigns.

Here I go referring to my own work again… One of my struggles with Poseidon’s Rifles always has been balancing the presence of a pretty substantial military establishment on the coast of Maine with the material in The Last Submarine and the Challenge article on the US Coast Guard in Rhode Island (“Rifle River?”). Very specifically, I’ve had to think hard about how to show that a couple of fairly powerful small warships belonging to First District can fit with the established canon. It’s only years after I started writing Poseidon’s Rifles that the obvious answer for where USCGC Gallatin, the flagship of First District, is in 2000. As soon as Milgov makes the decision to withdraw US troops from Europe (before the summer offensive?), Gallatin is picked to participate. Overhauling the ship, storing up the fuel, making the crossing, waiting waiting waiting… The better part of 2000 might be eaten up with that sort of thing.

Your Gallatin idea makes perfect sense. I've always wanted to incorporate your Poseidon’s Rifles work into my campaigns but I have been hesitant because I'm not sure where it would conflict with canon.for better or for worse, I personally always try not to contradict canon (each to their own though, that's just my personal preference). I'm happy to fill in the blanks in canon with new material though. If your Poseidon’s Rifles work reaches completion and doesn't conflict with what's in Rifle River and The Last Submarine I'll incorporate it wholesale as well.

[Legbreaker]

...doesn't conflict with what's in Rifle River and The Last Submarine I'll incorporate it wholesale as well.

I'm in agreement with that as a general statement. Anybodies work which expands on the canon without contradicting it is likely to see use in my hands.

[Webstral]

...you might want to hold off sending ships across the pond until August... Having the ships stuck in drydock somewhere during the early part of the year seems to be the best approach to avoid screwing around with canon too much (although it's your creation and you should do what you like).

I agree insofar as Gallatin, a 3250-ton cutter with a 76mm gun and other smaller armaments, has to be managed carefully in order not to upset the balance of things as given in The Last Submarine and “Rifle River”. Looking back through my notes, I see that I’ve addressed this concern already (and quite forgot about it). Gallatin serves as convoy escort to the movement of 70th Infantry Division to Europe in 1998. While in Europe, Gallatin and her squadron are diverted to Norway to intercept Soviet raiders on their way back to Soviet-held territory from Trondheim. During the fighting, Gallatin shares credit for sinking a Tarantul-class corvette and receives full credit for a Nanutchka. Gallatin takes multiple hits from enemy autocannon during the engagement. She makes the Atlantic crossing and spends more than a year in drydock and at anchor in Bath (Maine). Shortages of fuel keep her from participating in any but the most important missions after she is declared fit for service. Gallatin participates in two actions against “pirates” operating along the coast of the Maritime Provinces in late 1999. In spring 2000, she participates in a pre-OMEGA to withdraw American troops from Iceland. Gallatin has no more sea time until crossing the Atlantic to escort the OMEGA fleet to the US.

Fuel shortages and repairs should suffice to explain why the strongest naval combatant in New England is sidelined for most of the post-Exchange period through April 2001.

[Legbreaker]

Most, if not all Coast Guard vessels are painted white, is that correct? Would they have received a naval grey coat at some point?

[Graebarde]

While Amtrak is a craptastic .gov entity it rents time on the rails as those are private property. Even though a large rail hub may be nuked out of existence, there are all sorts of side lines that branch around a service small communities especially farm.

Alot of Rail road equipment and infrastructure will survive too as it is based in small towns too.

Rail would jump at the chance to become a people hauling entity again. There is something like 40 passenger cars in Puelbo sitting on a siding as it is not lucrative enough to run them.

The is even an operating Steam Locomotive that runs just for fans, the Toltec - Cumbres line.

Don't think most railroads would JUMP at the chance since they pushed to abolish passenger service in the first place when the started loosing money on it at the end of WW2. Took them twenty years to do it, but MOST of them wanted out of it. Now in the twilight era, I could see passenger service coming back, IF they have rail service at all.

Rail recovery would be one of the primary goals in rebuilding America. It is the most effecient means of moving tonnage of all modes. Two persons move 5000 tons hundreds of miles.. vs 250 plus semi trailers on the interstate?

While I love the steam operations, I think the emphasis would be getting the d-e engines working again. Steam is dead from lack of sufficient infastructure to readily support it, as well as the limited number of operational engines. Yes on area basis, they will be used, IF they have the perosnnel to operate and maintain them.. a whole new skill set that is a hobby now..

Fuel is still the critical point with any of the modes.. and for steam WATER is needed more often than fuel.. it takes at least six pounds of water per pound of fuel for a steam engine.. somewhere I have data on the consumption factor of steam engines, but they guzzled the water and fuel. Yes the coal and wood, or heavy oil, can and has been used, but that is intensive use of resources for other things too.

Railroading is a whole game unto itself...

BTW I was in the transportation corps as a traffic manager for the last five years of service. I was an instructor at the trans school during the end of steam in the military. They had a Consolidated (2-8-0) they fired up monthly and moved around post. Ft Eusits had a massive amount of trackage for it's size since the at one time trained military railroaders. I took a course and was awarded a 'war-time' mos as rail movements coordinator (fancy name for dispatcher, station agent, car clerk.. not the man that run the train, but told the train when it could run.. and interacted between the railroad and customers.

About the time of T2K there were still two rail operations battalions in the reserves.. still are I think. During WW2 there were a score or more battalions, each sponsored by a civilian railroad actually. It's what I think would be the picture of American railroads in T2000.

Done ramblin
Grae

[Panther Al]

Indeed- the railroads made a strong effort to make it profitable till the early 60's but they couldn't do it. The late 40's and early 50's was the best it got. the only reason passenger rail works in Europe is because the distances are much shorter and that the gov subsidizes rail massively. But it must be admitted that nothing moves people and freight like rail does.

But it's not the most efficient: that title belongs to barges. And to give them it's due, most barges are running on powerplants built inthe 60's. EMD at one time was trying to convince barge tug owners to upgrade to more modern fuel efficient powerplants, which will stretch the lead they have even more.

[Adm.Lee]

Alot of Rail road equipment and infrastructure will survive too as it is based in small towns too.

The short lines might still have stuff, but the Class I roads have been shucking those lines for decades. The trunk lines still run in and through major cities, and if bridges are down, then that's a big problem.

Rail would jump at the chance to become a people hauling entity again. There is something like 40 passenger cars in Puelbo sitting on a siding as it is not lucrative enough to run them.

The railroads had been trying to get rid of passenger rail as fast as they could since the '60s. Having said that, I think MilGov's going to be nationalizing things de facto, and pressing commuter coaches into use as people-haulers if they can. Freight hauling is going to be more important, anyway, as they need to knit the economy back together.

The is even an operating Steam Locomotive that runs just for fans, the Toltec - Cumbres line.

There's at least a dozen steam locomotives operating about the US in the '90s, but they take a lot of man-hours to maintain, and the specialized skills are pretty rare.

The two places MilGov will want to head to try to recover any steam locomotives are the Norfolk & Western's shops at Roanoke, VA and the museum at Strasburg PA. I can't recall if there was anything running from Roanoke in the late '90s, or if they had shut down by then. Sugar Creek in Ohio was running 4 steam locomotives in the last decade, but they've shut down in the last 5 years.

As for the rest of the railnet, diesel-electric locomotives need fuel to run, I presume some shop modifications can be made to run them on alcohol? The all-electric Northeast Corridor will need a lot of juice and wire work-- if there's a power plant running, it can be fixed.

Repairing any damaged rails is a bigger problem. I presume the railroads may have exhausted their stocks of replacement rails by 1999-2000, so you'll really want to get a steel mill working again.

[Targan]

Repairing any damaged rails is a bigger problem. I presume the railroads may have exhausted their stocks of replacement rails by 1999-2000, so you'll really want to get a steel mill working again.

Not at first. So much rail that could be torn up and re-laid where needed. Think of all those rail routes that have 4, 6, 8 or more lines running into and out of major transport hubs and population centres. No need for that level of capacity for many years to come. Work crews would be tasked with ripping up excess parallel lines and re-laying the rails as required. IMHO of course.

[Webstral]

Security of the routes is the chief obstacle, I believe. A train attracts attention. The hungry locals and marauders alike will conclude that the train probably has things they need--things worth transporting. Track is vulnerable, and trains are restricted to track. Long-distance transportation by rail is going to be very difficult if it moves through areas that are not secure--which is to say very large swaths of the country in 2000 and 2001.

Barge traffic, on the other hand, has a somewhat more secure line of traffic. For this reason, I think one of the main efforts of Milgov in 2001 will be securing the coastal waterways of the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts, plus the navigable portions of the Mississippi watershed and the rivers east of the Appalachians. Knocking out or co-opting the Sea Lord of Jacksonville will be an important step. Controlling marauders along the principal river routes will be another.

The French maintained a riverine force in Indochina during their war, and the US 9th Infantry was a riverine force operating in the Mekong Delta. I wonder if a large portion of the Omegamen might not be turned into brown water Marines.

The GDW folks already thought of the powerful potential of the inland navigation system. (See attachment) An armored brigade holds the hub in southern Illinois, while strenuous efforts have been made to ensure that "the Father of Waters flows unvexed to the sea" (Abraham Lincoln). So long as traffic can move along the waterways unimpeded, the hinterland beyond the banks can wait. By the same token, a riverine force can move large tonnages of men and equipment in a very fuel-efficient fashion. Such a force can land anywhere their ships can reach. Imagine the effect on local marauders and warlords if a properly-equipped and supplied infantry brigade is brought ashore with little warning. Throw in a couple of assault guns and some folks to train the locals to form their own militia, and you've got yourself a brick in the edifice of Operation Manifest Destiny.

[Adm.Lee]

I agree that river traffic would be quicker to revive. "Pirates of the Mississippi," anyone?

Seeing as how the ships of TF34 will be arriving in November, I don't think there will be a lot of movement from the Norfolk area over the winter? Maybe spreading out a bit, south and west inland. Walking over the mountains doesn't sound like a lot of fun in winter, Interstate highways or not.

Come spring, I can see one group staying put, one heading northeast where Milgov has an outpost, one to New Orleans to help control the Mississippi and expand from there. That Sea Lord in Jacksonville will be a sticking point, and the Civgov enclave in Georgia is in the way. I think those would be my major directions for MilGov East.

[Webstral]

I agree that river traffic would be quicker to revive. "Pirates of the Mississippi," anyone?

More fun than you could shake a stick at.

That Sea Lord in Jacksonville will be a sticking point, and the Civgov enclave in Georgia is in the way. I think those would be my major directions for MilGov East.

Civgov will be a concern, to be sure. However, unless they actively interdict sea traffic I don’t believe Milgov will want to enter into conflict with them. I wonder, though, how the Sea Lord will behave. Who is he, really? What are his real motivations? Where does he see himself going? If he messes with coastal shipping, how does that play out? Lots of interesting possibilities there.

[ArmySGT.]

Don't think most railroads would JUMP at the chance since they pushed to abolish passenger service in the first place when the started loosing money on it at the end of WW2. Took them twenty years to do it, but MOST of them wanted out of it. Now in the twilight era, I could see passenger service coming back, IF they have rail service at all. However the competition that was taking the profit out of transporting people. Namely got nuked out of business. Those Bus lines are harbored in, and operate out of cities.
Secondly, fuel is no longer cheap to burn for the profit of moving people. Refined fuel is not cheap, rationed, and mostly for Govt purposes.
Rail recovery would be one of the primary goals in rebuilding America. It is the most effecient means of moving tonnage of all modes. Two persons move 5000 tons hundreds of miles.. vs 250 plus semi trailers on the interstate? Exactly why I think it will be prime movement in TW2k. Also the first choice to move many people for acceptable cost in the resource poor period after the exchange of nuclear gifts.
While I love the steam operations, I think the emphasis would be getting the d-e engines working again. Steam is dead from lack of sufficient infastructure to readily support it, as well as the limited number of operational engines. Yes on area basis, they will be used, IF they have the perosnnel to operate and maintain them.. a whole new skill set that is a hobby now.. Diesel fuel becomes the issue. I am sure they would love them but, if you can’t get fuel because there are no oil rigs, refineries, or holding tanks; alternatives have to be found.
As for the skill set. The damn machine is crawling in enthusiasts that will drown you in minutiae. Heck some will operate just because they always wanted to. A real rail mission with real freight, would be a wet dream.
Fuel is still the critical point with any of the modes.. and for steam WATER is needed more often than fuel.. it takes at least six pounds of water per pound of fuel for a steam engine.. somewhere I have data on the consumption factor of steam engines, but they guzzled the water and fuel. Yes the coal and wood, or heavy oil, can and has been used, but that is intensive use of resources for other things too. Doesn’t have to be drinking water just sediment free and mineral free if that can be helped. Water tanks can be improvised along the line. If it can be done in 1860 TW2k can find a way.
About the time of T2K there were still two rail operations battalions in the reserves.. still are I think. During WW2 there were a score or more battalions, each sponsored by a civilian railroad actually. It's what I think would be the picture of American railroads in T2000.
Their still around and still recruiting for the Army Reserve.

[Legbreaker]

It all really comes down to the tracks. As has been mentioned in many places, including canon sources, tracks are often pulled up by locals after the steel. Fires can rip though a track causing untold damage to the wooden sleepers, or at least warping the tracks enough to potentially cause derailment.
Security as mentioned is also a big issue. If units are having trouble securing their fields, how are they expected to secure hundred of miles of track as well. Yes, a field of potatoes is more concentrated value than a steel track, but there's still value.

Given the vast distances tracks cover, and some rather remote locations it goes through, they're prime targets for ambushes. A train forced to stop because of a fallen log, missing section of rail, etc is a prime target for marauders bent on stealing whatever cargo is on board. Yes you can mount troops on the train with machineguns, mortars, artillery and so forth, but as has been illustrated in history, a determined attacker definately has the advantage as long as they've planned ahead and set up in a suitable location.

Rail in my view will be very important for the reconstruction of the country, but it's going to be near useless early on. Maybe by 2010 when some order has been restored, and infrastructure rebuilt, but certainly not in 2001.

[ArmySGT.]

It all really comes down to the tracks. As has been mentioned in many places, including canon sources, tracks are often pulled up by locals after the steel. Fires can rip though a track causing untold damage to the wooden sleepers, or at least warping the tracks enough to potentially cause derailment.
Security as mentioned is also a big issue. If units are having trouble securing their fields, how are they expected to secure hundred of miles of track as well. Yes, a field of potatoes is more concentrated value than a steel track, but there's still value.

Given the vast distances tracks cover, and some rather remote locations it goes through, they're prime targets for ambushes. A train forced to stop because of a fallen log, missing section of rail, etc is a prime target for marauders bent on stealing whatever cargo is on board. Yes you can mount troops on the train with machineguns, mortars, artillery and so forth, but as has been illustrated in history, a determined attacker definately has the advantage as long as they've planned ahead and set up in a suitable location.

Rail in my view will be very important for the reconstruction of the country, but it's going to be near useless early on. Maybe by 2010 when some order has been restored, and infrastructure rebuilt, but certainly not in 2001.

Who is going to move what, where, and with what fuel? The trucks are being used on the fronts, the factories are nuked, the ability to pump oil and refine it gone.

During the U.S. Civil War Scout trains were used. I had a flat bed filled with stone to detonate torpedoes (mines), then flat cars with troops armed with cannon, gatlings, calliopes, and rifles, the locomotive, fuel car, water car, freight car with rations and such then a caboose. Sometime even another locomotive on the other end facing the other way to hasten a retreat.

These scout locomotives would run ahead of the troop or supply train to see that the rails were open and good. A company of Rifle infantry to secure and clean rails. Sometimes even gandydancers, rail, and ties to repair the track.

[Legbreaker]

True, 150 years ago give or take they were well organised, but they also had an intact rail system to start with plus the necessary supporting infrastructure.
When the troops arrive from Europe, they'll be faced with a rail system which has been nuked, torn up and otherwise damaged. They will not have the necessary engines, carriages, and supplies to organise trains on even the civil war level. They will also be seriously lacking heavier weapons than rifles and machineguns with the odd M203 given the restrictions placed on troop "luggage".

In my mind it will take some time to arrange the first "scout" train, and much longer before anything resembling a regular service canbe established. 10 years does not seem like an unreasonable time frame given the problems the US will face with reestablishing the necessary infrastructure and security.

Trains are not the answer to shift the Omegamen from Norfolk in 2000 or 2001. Maybe in 2002, but by then the drought will have really kicked in and movement by foot and whatever other transport can be scrounged is sure to have been used to relocate the bulk of the people (canon supports this movement, but does not specify how).

[ArmySGT.]

However, someone else arranged for the Troops from Europe to come to Norfolk. Someone with an organization planned for the arrival of these Troops. If the could not feed, move, and support them, then why bring them back at all?

There is an organization there. MilGov. MilGov has the legal authority to commandeer (US Statutes) as does FEMA (FEMA is CivGov yes?).

However they have the organizational skills, the training, and likely the manpower.

Adaption, use the assets you have to support the Commanders intent, Act on your own initiative to support the Mission. These are tenets in US Military Doctrine.

MilGov troops will strip rail from sidings, yards, and spurs to build a route around nuked areas. Rail does go through Major cities, however there are miles and miles of track just to support all the small communities and farms. At this point it is not about speed, it is about economy. Rail and who controls it will be in a position to move resources, equipment, and personnel to viable places while cannibalizing anything else.

MilGov will be preparing for those Troops to comeback because there will be a plan to use them somewhere.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I can think of nothing that would engender good will and gratitude to MilGov than by hiring contractors to get buses (bluebird school buses, mind you), trucks, vans, horsedrawn carts and whatever else up and working on behalf of troop resettlement. Pay with food and medical supplies, possibly gold and C16 ammo? Hell yeah. Net result: MilGov pays pretty good and getting on this reconstruction job is a good deal.

Also as to what to do with them (the troops) I can see a lot being employed to help start digging out DC.

[Legbreaker]

However, someone else arranged for the Troops from Europe to come to Norfolk. Someone with an organization planned for the arrival of these Troops. If the could not feed, move, and support them, then why bring them back at all?
Politics, as I have already indicated. Also, the military only needs to feed them until they are demobilised or otherwise moved on. Once they're cut loose, they're responsible for their own upkeep, just like many of the troops already were before leaving Poland.

MilGov troops will strip rail from sidings, yards, and spurs to build a route around nuked areas. Rail does go through Major cities, however there are miles and miles of track just to support all the small communities and farms. At this point it is not about speed, it is about economy. Rail and who controls it will be in a position to move resources, equipment, and personnel to viable places while cannibalizing anything else.
Absolutely and I totally agree they will be doing those things, what I am saying is that it won't happen overnight. It's a long and slow process made longer and slower due to a crippling lack of heavy machinery and the trains will not be available for use for a substantial amount of time, time they will not have due to the drought.

MilGov will be preparing for those Troops to comeback because there will be a plan to use them somewhere.

What units will be already onsite preparing for the arrival? How much work can they really get done in the relatively short time available and while they themselves are scrounging around for enough to eat? The US is beyond being on it's knees, it's laying face down on the canvas, barely hanging onto consciousness. There's almost nothing available to carry out any significant works to prepare for the coming influx of troops.

My guess is the organisers saw the operation as having more in common with an amphibious landing - very little useful infrastructure or immediately useful supplies available to hand and everything needed for at least the first month had to be shipped in. This may explain why everyone aboard was limited to just 100kgs of gear - the rest of the cargo space was taken up with tents, a few light vehicles, food, field kitchens, medical supplies, and the other necessities of life.

[agrikk]

Woah! When I posted this and received a "Amtrak" response, I though okay, cool. Amtrak. But then I came back to check and found 42 replies I was stoked! Thanks for the input, guys. It'll help a ton!


If you don't have this excellent source of T2K material then I can't urge you strongly enough to obtain them.

I've been tempted to buy the CDs for a while, but never had a real reason since I own most of the modules in hardcopy. But now that I see there's a wealth of information in the Challenge articles, I bought them last night.

I'm kinda partial to the Amtrak idea, simply because my players didn't take the Last Train to Clarksville and I always felt they missed out. My players will probably stick around Norfolk for a while before being organized into some kinds of special operations unit and running a mission to NYC to recover some gold.

I think I am going to organize the returning troops into the reacivated and called up 77th Regional Support Command (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/77rsc.htm) which has a mandate to support FEMA during "natural or manmade disasters", but in this case replace FEMA with MilGov under the soon to be lost 12th Corps. (Support insted of Readiness because it didn't get renamed to Readiness until 2003...). Of the 43,000, I'm going to say that around 15,000 make it to the shores of the US as combat effectives. The rest peel off to the Middle East or wherever and the rest are civilian staff, contrators and dependents.

My plan is to use the 77th as a marker of the dissolution of the United States: the characters will leave for NYC as the unit is being formed as a full division but every time they return to Norfolk after weeks away, they see the 77th reformed as a brigade, then a handful of battalions under 12th Corps, then finally dissolving altogether upon being ordered to reinforce the 78th at Fort Dix.

Although it can't realistically handle a large fraction of all of those troops, there are military convoys between Norfolk and Muskogee (Oklahoma), by way of Greensboro, Nashville, Memphis and Little Rock.


I am going to use this as a factor that ultimately dooms the 77th. It will never make it off the Norfolk enclave as a fighting unit as it is pulled apart to reinforce other units, convoys to Muskogee and desertions take their toll.

[dragoon500ly]

Most, if not all Coast Guard vessels are painted white, is that correct? Would they have received a naval grey coat at some point?

Straight fom the Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet...

"The US Coast Guard is a separate military service under the Department of Transportation. It is responsible for the enforcement of US laws in coastal waters and on the high seas subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. In addition, since 1985, the Coast Guard has had coastal defense responsibilities for the US Atlantic coast and, since 1986, for the US Pacific coast."

"At the direction of the president, the Coast Guard can become part of the Navy (as during both world wars) or it can operate in a war zone while remaining an independent service (as happened in Korea and Vietnam)."

So the answer to your question really depends on what action the president took. But once the naval war started heating up, I'd expect the coasties would have gone "haze grey" rather quickly.

[rcaf_777]

Don't think most railroads would JUMP at the chance since they pushed to abolish passenger service in the first place when the started loosing money on it at the end of WW2. Took them twenty years to do it, but MOST of them wanted out of it. Now in the twilight era, I could see passenger service coming back, IF they have rail service at all.

Rail recovery would be one of the primary goals in rebuilding America. It is the most effecient means of moving tonnage of all modes. Two persons move 5000 tons hundreds of miles.. vs 250 plus semi trailers on the interstate?

While I love the steam operations, I think the emphasis would be getting the d-e engines working again. Steam is dead from lack of sufficient infastructure to readily support it, as well as the limited number of operational engines. Yes on area basis, they will be used, IF they have the perosnnel to operate and maintain them.. a whole new skill set that is a hobby now..

Fuel is still the critical point with any of the modes.. and for steam WATER is needed more often than fuel.. it takes at least six pounds of water per pound of fuel for a steam engine.. somewhere I have data on the consumption factor of steam engines, but they guzzled the water and fuel. Yes the coal and wood, or heavy oil, can and has been used, but that is intensive use of resources for other things too.

Railroading is a whole game unto itself...

BTW I was in the transportation corps as a traffic manager for the last five years of service. I was an instructor at the trans school during the end of steam in the military. They had a Consolidated (2-8-0) they fired up monthly and moved around post. Ft Eusits had a massive amount of trackage for it's size since the at one time trained military railroaders. I took a course and was awarded a 'war-time' mos as rail movements coordinator (fancy name for dispatcher, station agent, car clerk.. not the man that run the train, but told the train when it could run.. and interacted between the railroad and customers.

About the time of T2K there were still two rail operations battalions in the reserves.. still are I think. During WW2 there were a score or more battalions, each sponsored by a civilian railroad actually. It's what I think would be the picture of American railroads in T2000.

Done ramblin
Grae


Canadian Army has something about a portable railway system what was underdelvopment?

[agrikk]

Check out chico's page. two years of work went into what he came up with.

Here's his site:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/


and by the way, the illustrated guide to Krakow on that site freaking OWNS.

[Legbreaker]

It is responsible for the enforcement of US laws in coastal waters and on the high seas subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. In addition, since 1985, the Coast Guard has had coastal defense responsibilities for the US Atlantic coast and, since 1986, for the US Pacific coast."

I'm only guessing here, but the coast guard vessels seem unlikely to carry missiles or much weaponry heavier than 76mm. Given the relatively light armament (compared to true warships), what roles might they be employed in during the war?

[Webstral]

I'm only guessing here, but the coast guard vessels seem unlikely to carry missiles or much weaponry heavier than 76mm. Given the relatively light armament (compared to true warships), what roles might they be employed in during the war?

Roles for a high endurance cutter will change from 1997 to 2000. With the destruction of so much of the world's tonnage and inability to put the remaining heavy ships to sea, lighter combatants that offer good fuel efficiency will have a place. For instance, while Gallatin does not carry her own missiles prior to the war, she is armed with a Phalanx CIWS and chaff launchers. Provided the electronics supporting the CIWS are working, Gallatin has a fair chance of surviving against a single inbound missile. During the fight I mentioned earlier, Gallatin is operating with other surface combatants against a squadron of light Soviet combatants. Missiles are in short supply. By sheer good fortune, the NATO group gets a targeting solution first and launch their available missiles. The Soviets reply, but the fast attack ships aren't carrying full complements of missiles. The exchange is unequal, and Gallatin is able to shoot down a single inbound SSM with her CIWS. Once the gunnery duel begins, the 76mm gun of Gallatin outranges the lighter autocannon of the Soviet corvettes. Gallatin takes some hits in the gunnery duel, but she is able to limp home with a kill-and-a-half to her credit.

Prior to the nuclear exchange, USCG vessels would be used for port security, search & rescue, and pretty much what they do today. They would be vulnerable to missile-armed Soviet warships and strike aircraft, so USCG vessels would have to be used for missions in which they either weren't exposed to these threats or operated as part of a larger group that could deal with these threats. After the nuclear exchange, all bets are off. This is why there are so few operational USCG vessels in 2001: they get used for everything and suffer high attrition as a result.

[Mohoender]

I'm only guessing here, but the coast guard vessels seem unlikely to carry missiles or much weaponry heavier than 76mm. Given the relatively light armament (compared to true warships), what roles might they be employed in during the war?

WHEC-717 "Mellon" had been fitted with Harpoons and Mk-46 (including ASW suits) and successfully fired them. USCG cutters are obviously designed to receive additional weaponries. It is also almost certain that medium range cutters would also receive at least an ASW suits.

What roles: convoy and commerce escort, ASW patrol, manning of older ships and civilian vessels taken over to perform more traditional coast guard duties.

Of course, all of this depends on the US president decision but the Twilight War has nothing in common with either Korea or Vietnam. Unlike these two conflicts (or the current ongoing one), it directly threaten US sea lanes in a very substantial manner and from the beginning. Actually, USCG would probably perform escort and ASW missions as early as 1995 as they were in WW2 and by January 1996, they would probably be already collaborating with the Chinese in order to loosen the Soviet Navy grip over China Sea.

US ambassador at Moscow on February 6, 1996 "Of course, Yuri, we have been informed of the loss of your cruiser, the Sebastopol, and I want you to know that we present you with our condolences to the families of your sailors. Really was one of our High Sea Coast Guard Cutter invloved? I'm sorry to hear that but this ship was performing regular high sea patrols in the area and it must have inadvertently informed the Chinese of that cruiser of yours position. All our appologies and I can already ensure you that we were not actively involved as we were for KMS Bismarck, 50 years ago. Your KGB officers are overwhelimingly paranoy as usual...".

[Matt W]

I have the "scout vehicle" for your Amtrak expedition

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta4eTNw5wIg

[schnickelfritz]

Track/Right of Way/Facilities inspection and maintenance of US Railroads (ans I would assume Canadian as well--CN has a main a few miles away and I see a lot of the same equipment with "CN" on the side) is typically done by what is known as "Hi-Rail" or "Hy-Rail" equipment. These are civillian market vehicles from 3/4 ton on up that have rail equipment fore and aft that can be retracted to allow use on standard roads. These go all the way up to three axle 2 to 5 ton trucks.

I can only imagine that similar equipment would be used (after fuel conversion) to scout and inspect right of ways. The MilGov leadership would need to ID logical routes needed in the short, medium, and long term. From there armed manpower would be drawn from the Omega pool and used to protect individuals tasked with rebuilding the rail infrastructure and maintaining said along the routes identified. This includes salvage operations. While some unwanted salvage would have occurred, most mainline rail in the CONUS is 100 pounds or better per foot, and typically welded in large sections. Carting a measurable amount off would be most likely impossible. And to use for what?

Irregardless, there will be so much rail material in yards and branch lines that there will be plenty to use for repairs/reconstruction until industry can produce more.

The biggest issue I see with rail use is repairs or reconstruction of storm damage, particularly washouts.

Prior to the widespread use of heavy machinery, this work was all done with hand tools and some smaller machines...the manpower pool can come from refugees. You want a job with a paycheck and food for your family? Come joing the Civillian Recontruction Corps Battalion in your area. I just picked that name from thin air, but what I see is very similar to what was done here in the 1930's under The New Deal.

Most of the motive power used to get the US rail network will probably come from branch lines, small railroads, museums, and industrial sites that have smaller, older engines that are big enough to do what movement is needed, are largely emp-immune, are easier on track/roadbed than the huge modern mainline engines, and much easier on fuel and far more tolerant of fuel purity. A lot of these 1950's diesels will burn whatever will burn.

I cannot and will not accept that thousands of US service personnel will be tossed out into the cold after their return...that makes no sense to me at all. The logical thing to do would be to use them as a cadre and as skilled specialists (where applicable) to help restore order, power, and utilities. What has been done before about a US reconstruction timeline was fantastic.

Thanks-
Dave

[ArmySGT.]

I cannot and will not accept that thousands of US service personnel will be tossed out into the cold after their return...that makes no sense to me at all. The logical thing to do would be to use them as a cadre and as skilled specialists (where applicable) to help restore order, power, and utilities. What has been done before about a US reconstruction timeline was fantastic.


Exactly. Manpower and Training especially when replacements is all but impossible. I cannot believe that de-mobilization would be on either MilGov or CivGovs agendas.

There is a front in Alaska and the U.S. Southwest begging for combat experienced Troops.

Reconstruction takes people. Even if the Navy can't use them because the Fleets are sunk, there are Ports to repair, civilian shipping to refloat, and offshore oil rigs that need support crews. The Air Force with all of their technicians and support people would be critical getting civilian craft in the air, re-establishing a National level communication infrastructure, rebuilding power grids while the Navy fixes the reactors, etc.

The Army would be taking back the lower 48, training replacements, and lending in big construction projects with the Corps of Engineers. Dam Locks, High bridges, New rail depots, relocating factories, securing depots and ammunition plants.

Those 43,000 people are critical to the reconstruction effort. Doesn't matter if they are no longer combat effectives, as they are reliable, dependable, they can follow orders (very difficult learned trait), and will have a myriad of skills... Idiotic to through them out, a near guarantee they would become hostile and anti Government.

[Targan]

Track/Right of Way/Facilities inspection and maintenance of US Railroads (ans I would assume Canadian as well--CN has a main a few miles away and I see a lot of the same equipment with "CN" on the side) is typically done by what is known as "Hi-Rail" or "Hy-Rail" equipment. These are civilian market vehicles from 3/4 ton on up that have rail equipment fore and aft that can be retracted to allow use on standard roads. These go all the way up to three axle 2 to 5 ton trucks.

That sort of hydraulically activated rail equipment has been extensively discussed in a previous thread (it was quite a while back though). We have vast stretches of rail line here in Australia, especially where the inland iron ore mines need to get their ores to the export ports along the coast. I've seen dozens of those sorts of hi-rail hybrid vehicles in the north-west of Western Australia. The Pilbara rail lines need very regular inspections because the extreme heat can warp the tracks and also some of the ore trains are literally several kilometers long so a derailment can be extremely expensive (it take a couple of kilometers to stop those big ore trains so when they derail it can be a nightmare to clean up).

[Legbreaker]

Nobody is saying they're ALL getting demobilised. Those who want to go are likely to be recognised as probable deserters after a relatively short period (possibly after the first thousand disappear over the nearest hill) and demobilisation on a voluntary basis instituted in an effort to prevent those people taking valuable military resources (ie weapons) with them.
Also, as has been pointed out, we're not actually talking about 43,000 military personnel here. 6,000 went to the middle east. Another substantial portion are civilians (lets call it 10% or 4,300), and then there's the permanently disabled from wounds, illness or radiation poisoning, say another 10% (which I judge very low given the length of the war and lack of evacuations and reinforcements).
This leaves us with just 28,400 military personnel.
Now lets take out those shipped to ports other than Norfolk. Shall we say another 10%?
Now we've got 24,100.
How about naval and air force personnel with little use on land, such as cooks, clerks, missile techs (like they're going to be needed post war on more than a reserve basis), navigators, helmsmen, airframe fitters and so forth. At most they'd be assigned a reserve status, subject to recall in the unlikely event they're needed again. I know, lets call that group a conservative 10%
So we're down to 19,800 useful troops.
Of that number, there's going to be some who head for the hills at the first opportunity, taking anything and everything that's not nailed down. Might only be a handful immediately, but as fears of a food shortage kick in around day 3, that trickle will likely turn to a flood.
Voluntary demobilisation, as previously stated, at least puts some sort of a control on what is walking out the door. Perhaps the sweetener is NOT facing a potential firing squad for desertion, AND Milgov provides a parting gift of a couple of weeks food and basic supplies.

Yes, troops could be retrained to cover needed skillsets, but that takes time. Time, which we all know, Milgov doesn't have. Reducing the military's food and support requirements are critical concerns and must be attended to if they have any hope of retaining control of even a cadre of useful personnel.

[Fusilier]

I can't see a significant number of them being let go as they step off the boat simply because of the food issue. Who is going to feed these people? They're basically a small city. Virginia is in effect a third world country now and I doubt they have a food surplus that can be just handed over in that kind of scale.

The brigade in North Carolina had to evacuate from a forest fire and drought and they're less than 2000 strong. 43,000 is a lot of mouths.

Dispersing them seems the most likely outcome to me. If the ships can cross the Atlantic, then they reach other places along the coast as well I'd imagine.

[Adm.Lee]

I went and peeked at Howling Wilderness again. When I suggested that steaming around Florida to get to the mouth of the Mississippi would be easier than walking over the Alleghenies to get to the headwaters of the Ohio, I had forgotten that 'Ole Man River' had broken the levees and was now routing south through the Atchafalaya. Meaning New Orleans is cut off and there is a new delta.

Unless someone (Army Corps of Engineers, Coast Guard's Eighth District, Navy's Caribbean elements) has mapped and charted those new channels, it's going to be a mite tougher to get upriver. Since we know that the Fifth Army is holding on to the upper and middle Mississippi, that suggests there is at least traffic up there. I'd be hopeful that someone has already done that.

[Legbreaker]

My guess is only the locals really know where the new channels are. Could be fun for a group of PCs to convince the "good ole boys" down south to act as pilots, guides, what-have-you, especially if the PC group includes "furiners". :p

[dragoon500ly]

I'm only guessing here, but the coast guard vessels seem unlikely to carry missiles or much weaponry heavier than 76mm. Given the relatively light armament (compared to true warships), what roles might they be employed in during the war?

The Coasties use 5-inch/38s, 76mm/62 Compacts and 3-inch/50s for heavy armament, they also use Mark 19 40mm, Mark 67 20mm, .50-caliber and 7.62mm as well as a 81mm mortar/.50-caliber combo.

The high- and medium-endurance cutters are fitted with hull-mounted sonars and have space to have Mk32 324mm ASW torpedo tubes with Mark46 torpedoes. While their helos are normally unarmed, they have operated
SH-2F ASW helos.

Their defensive role is mostly as patrol craft with limited ASW capability (pretty much "Periscope to Starboard!" sort of thing; their sonars are Korean War vintage). Some of the Congressional Records mention the coasties having a convoy escort role, but flipping through some of the various books, I'm afraid that their role would be either as rescue ships or as targets for incoming missiles.

The vast majority of the USCG Fleet is harbor patrol/inland waterway patrol craft, better suited to chasing off enemy divers and explosive-laden speed boats.

[Legbreaker]

That's what I'd thought - anything but modern and survivable warships. Little more than glorified armed fishing boats really...
Not to say they wouldn't be effective in their designated roles, just look at how much tonnage has gone to the bottom due to commerce raiders, but they've no place being in a decent battle.

[Webstral]

Little more than glorified armed fishing boats really...they've no place being in a decent battle.

That's taking creative license with dragoon's observations. At the risk of repeating myself, the class to which USCGC Gallatin belongs has a 76mm autocannon, a CIWS system and radar, and smaller autocannon. A ship like this is perfectly capable of going head-to-head with a Soviet corvette--especially if that corvette is out of missile reloads. Whether corvette-on-corvette counts as a decent battle depends a good deal on whether one is present or not.

[Legbreaker]

But would that soviet corvette be found without missiles or nearby friends? I tend to doubt it unless the overall situation was VERY desperate.
In the first year or the war, the USCG ships would be outclassed, out gunned and likely on the bottom. Any which survive past 1997 are likely to see their survivability increase, but they're still at a substantial disadvantage against a purpose built military vessel.
Come 2000, any with fuel and three rounds for their main gun will be a very decent threat in most areas of the world, but should they face even damaged opposition...
Do coast guard vessels have any anti-air defences? If not then they're vulnerable to anyone in a hang glider who's mad enough to fire a LAW down at them... (crazy I know, but surely somebody in hollywood has thought of it?)

[ArmySGT.]

Do coast guard vessels have any anti-air defences? If not then they're vulnerable to anyone in a hang glider who's mad enough to fire a LAW down at them... (crazy I know, but surely somebody in hollywood has thought of it?)

You do realize that if you point the LAW down to shoot you tip the back end up. Firing the Hang glider would catch the full back blast. Down would come the glider like Icarus with burning wings.

[Targan]

You do realize that if you point the LAW down to shoot you tip the back end up. Firing the Hang glider would catch the full back blast. Down would come the glider like Icarus with burning wings.

Leg and I both served in the Army Reserve (and Leg in the regular Australian Army as well) and both fired LAWs. I'm sure he's well aware of the Back Blast Danger Area. I don't agree with Leg's characterisation of high endurance USCG cutters as being "little more than glorified armed fishing boats". I also suspect that (as has been intimated by previous posters) USCG vessels would be up-gunned once the USCG was brought into the fold of the USN during the Twilight War.

[Legbreaker]

You do realize that if you point the LAW down to shoot you tip the back end up. Firing the Hang glider would catch the full back blast. Down would come the glider like Icarus with burning wings.

Absolutely. I was using that as a ridiculous example (note the hollywood reference) of how vulnerable a vessel is without anti-air weapons.

No doubt that these vessels would be uparmed and the electronics updated, as long as weapon and electronics systems were available. Dedicated military vessels will always receive priority which means it's quite likely many USCG vessels wouldn't receive much more than a new paint job.

[Webstral]

Leg, take a deep breath. When you think your posts through carefully, you contribute as well as anyone here. When you snap off a half-baked hip shot, you leave your posts open to critique, which leads all too often to bruised pride and more half-baked hip shots. For my part, I prefer to interact with the Legbreaker who doesn't feel like he has to defend an observation that came out of the oven too soon.

The deployment strategy of the US Coast Guard in the event of a NATO-Soviet conflict was given lots of thought by people with lots of expertise and careers to devote to that sort of thing. I'm not claiming that said deployment strategy was perfect or anything like it. I am claiming that during the Cold War some thought was given to balancing the demands on the USCG with the means.

As for desperate situations, it's nuclear war. The Soviets have lost their Northern Fleet by 1998, with the exception of fast attack ships like the missile-armed corvettes. Fuel is short in any event. The Soviet fast attack ships are notorious for not having reloads available onboard. The Red Banner Fleet HQ got hit during the nuke exchange, so we should expect some shortages. Missiles, which aren't carried aboard the corvettes in great quantities, is a reasonable place to expect shortages.

Now, one has to draw distinctions between a high endurance cutter like Gallatin and much smaller cutters like Bainbridge Island. At 110' and with a single 25mm autocannon, Bainbridge Island is poorly equipped to mix it up with a genuine naval combatant. Gallatin, at 378' and armed with a 76mm gun, a CIWS (useful for knocking down SSM and rogue hang gliders), smaller autocannon, and possibly a helo, is a reasonable candidate for trans-Atlantic escort duty as part of a much larger force in 1997 or as a primary combatant after the nuclear exchange. Upgrades to the weapons package only make Gallatin more likely to draw escort duty. Bainbridge Island probably never would venture off the continental shelf.

[Legbreaker]

Leg, take a deep breath. When you think your posts through carefully, you contribute as well as anyone here. When you snap off a half-baked hip shot, you leave your posts open to critique, which leads all too often to bruised pride and more half-baked hip shots.
Fair comment.
Often times I purposefully leave openings to promote discussion (such as the hang gliding LAW). Sometimes I'm tired and my brain isn't quite in gear. I'm NEVER looking to cause an arguement though.

As for desperate situations, it's nuclear war.
I'm actually in pretty close agreement with you on most of your points. The only significant difference is that I can't see upgrades occuring quickly enough to most of the CG vessels to make any impact - there's too many other more important priorities out there for the limited resources.

[pmulcahy11b]

You do realize that if you point the LAW down to shoot you tip the back end up. Firing the Hang glider would catch the full back blast. Down would come the glider like Icarus with burning wings.

Yeah, I always loved that shot near the end of Rambo 2, Electric Buggaloo (or whatever they called it) where he fires the LAW from the seat of of the helicopter he's flying. He just fried all those rescued POWs in the back, and probably damaged the helicopter enough that it went down. If they were portraying reality. Do you know how many young troops I had to disabuse of the notion to fire a LAW from enclosed spaces after that? Hollywood sucks sometimes...

[Legbreaker]

How about in Rambo III when he is able to drive, load and fire the tank all by himself all at the same time? :confused:
Of course if you want pure ridiculousness, there's always the A Team movie and their flying tank... I wonder if a certain Mr Sparks was involved with that? Oh, wait, it wasn't an M113 so that would be a no. :cool:

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Yeah, I always loved that shot near the end of Rambo 2, Electric Buggaloo (or whatever they called it) where he fires the LAW from the seat of of the helicopter he's flying. He just fried all those rescued POWs in the back, and probably damaged the helicopter enough that it went down. If they were portraying reality. Do you know how many young troops I had to disabuse of the notion to fire a LAW from enclosed spaces after that? Hollywood sucks sometimes...

Heh, you should have just stuck up a few posters of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/M72A2_LAW_1969.jpg/800px-M72A2_LAW_1969.jpg

I'm reminded of Tyne Daley nearly getting her face baked off by one in that Dirty Harry movie.

[ArmySGT.]

Absolutely. I was using that as a ridiculous example (note the hollywood reference) of how vulnerable a vessel is without anti-air weapons.

No doubt that these vessels would be uparmed and the electronics updated, as long as weapon and electronics systems were available. Dedicated military vessels will always receive priority which means it's quite likely many USCG vessels wouldn't receive much more than a new paint job.

Ok, just checking. I'm the FNG here. So you guys will have years of inside jokes on me.

Onto AAA on boats. *shudders* Boats.

Guys the US DoD is myopic on weapons. We don't look to re-use or re-purpose anything. Totally foolish waste like using M60 MBTs and the Oriskanny for crying out loud to make artificial reefs.

What would the USCG get probably .50cals on flexible mounts and MANPADs. The RH202 20mm is seen on a Naval mount and the MK19.

The lack of triple A is less a concern in convoys across the Atlantic because other assets will see it at a distance and deal with it. Now in the Caribbean a ship could get jumped quick if warplanes can use the islands to screen.

Thats what separates an Admiral from a casualty.

Maybe the Coasties do go on Convoys or the Navy uses them in defense of the US Shore freeing up other vessels. Play to the hulls strengths.

[Legbreaker]

Maybe the Coasties do go on Convoys or the Navy uses them in defense of the US Shore freeing up other vessels. Play to the hulls strengths.

I'm sorry, are we in the same universe here? Would the military actually do something logical? ;)

With regard to backblast, we were taught in jungle warfare that the M72 is best used in reverse. The arming distance is usually greater than you can see and the backblast is MUCH more likely to injure an enemy unless you manage a direct hit with the unarmed rocket. This principle applies to all close terrain such as inside buildings.
The blast may not kill, but it's certain to give them a bad hair day and make them think twice about sticking around!

[ArmySGT.]

I'm sorry, are we in the same universe here? Would the military actually do something logical? ;)

With regard to backblast, we were taught in jungle warfare that the M72 is best used in reverse. The arming distance is usually greater than you can see and the backblast is MUCH more likely to injure an enemy unless you manage a direct hit with the unarmed rocket. This principle applies to all close terrain such as inside buildings.
The blast may not kill, but it's certain to give them a bad hair day and make them think twice about sticking around!

:saeek:

My short stint in the National Guard before going back to active was grenades in the offense and Claymores in the defense.

Anybody behind you had to be pissssssssssssssssed.

Claymore back blast is mitigated for the firer by keeping something between you and the back of the mine or better get low in a foxhole.

No I can safely say that reversing a LAW in woodland combat never came up.