Homosexuals in the military

[pmulcahy11b]

<Split from Female combat soldiers in T2K thread>

Politically that might now be possible, but I just can't see too many women being assigned to combat roles. It'll be a good generation or so before there's more than the odd token woman in any one battalion.
The testosterone laden, male dominated combat arms will need a whole new mindset before it occurs.

Though it's already started to a small extent, it will be a fight similar to integrating the services and allowing gays in the military. Once it starts in earnest, it will drag on for decades.

And unfortunately, gays in the military will find that their problems are not now solved; their going to be the subject of hate crimes, hazing, bullshit details, and prejudice and hate from the senior NCOs and officers -- and possibly some of the mid-level ones as well. Ironically, polls of the troops indicate that the enlisted and junior NCOs, and junior officers -- Captain and below -- don't really care if their fellow soldier is gay, except in 20% of the responses. The higher the rank of the soldier, the more likely he is to be prejudiced against gays in the military.

And for the record, I knew fellow soldiers who were gay at every posting, in every unit I've ever been in, the whole time I was in the Army. I couldn't care less. My attitude was pretty much, "Do your job, pull your weight, do better than your best, and don't be a troublemaker -- and your personal life is your business." I counseled some gay soldiers, and didn't break their trust by telling my superiors about it. Yeah, I broke the rules in that respect, but I felt I was morally correct in that attitude and that the Army wasn't.

[Fusilier]

And unfortunately, gays in the military will find that their problems are not now solved; their going to be the subject of hate crimes, hazing, bullshit details, and prejudice and hate from the senior NCOs and officers -- and possibly some of the mid-level ones as well. Ironically, polls of the troops indicate that the enlisted and junior NCOs, and junior officers -- Captain and below -- don't really care if their fellow soldier is gay, except in 20% of the responses. The higher the rank of the soldier, the more likely he is to be prejudiced against gays in the military.

A long time ago we could have replaced the term "gays" in your post with "blacks" and your post would still make sense. The early days for any change will be rocky, but eventually it will become as normal as previous transitions. Society is changing for the better and as each year passes, just like on civie street, it will be a little bit easier for gays to be integrated and accepted.

The army will get over the fact that nobody should have to hide something that is as natural as skin color.

[natehale1971]

A long time ago we could have replaced the term "gays" in your post with "blacks" and your post would still make sense. The early days for any change will be rocky, but eventually it will become as normal as previous transitions. Society is changing for the better and as each year passes, just like on civie street, it will be a little bit easier for gays to be integrated and accepted.

The army will get over the fact that nobody should have to hide something that is as natural as skin color.

My gaming group in the Navy touched on this subject alot... because two of our players were gay and in a relationship, and everyone in the group knew it and supported them. And when ever we would talk about the entire issue back when all this started in 1993, they said that they wouldn't want things to be out in the open because it would make an issue of their sexuality. Reducing their humanity and making them nothing more than... their sexual orientation, when they were so much more than that.

And when "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue" came out they were happy with it. Because the fact of who you sleep with shouldn't be an issue and shouldn't be paraded about (because even hetrosexual displays of affection or sexuality NOT ALLOWED in uniform), and as long as you didn't force it on others no one did or said anything about it.

Hell, I never liked it when people would start talking about their sexticapdes, and then expected others to start and describe theirs... and when i would beg off, i'd get hazed because i was a virgin who was waiting for someone i loved to be with.

I knew 75% of the gays that where in any command that i was assigned, namely because I was would end up getting hit on by them on a routine basis (my sexual naivate for some reason seemed to give them the idea i was gay). And they'd be terrified when i would say "I'm fallatered, but I'm straight..." that I was going to turn them in, but they would became close friends when I said "Who you sleep with, is none of my business. It's something between you, your partner (or partners) and God. I'm not putting myself in a position to judge... because I ain't God."

And this would cause them to tell the other gays and lesbians that I was someone who wouldn't make their sexuality a big deal, and I wouldn't report them. And unfortuantely, that caused one of them to keep hitting on me and not take "NO" for an answer. He stalked me, and sexually assaulted me.

This situation is NOTHING like that of intergation... remember that it was Woodrow Wilson who had segreated the Armed Forces and the federal government services. It was an act done by a racist whose so-called 'Progressive' ideals would inspire the Nazis (not just their racial ideology, but their mastery and use of Propaganda to sway the masses to support anything the government leaders wanted).

It really gets to me when the 'in your face' types who make what ever hypenated group that they are more important than everything else. If you are Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender or Questioning it doesn't matter to me. Hell, It's NONE OF ANYONE ELSES BUSINESS. So please stop forcing it down others throats.

Who someone sleeps with or who they get married to just shouldn't be the governments or anyone elses business. It's something that is theirs, their partner (or partners) and God's business... and NO ONE else's business.

And before anyone attacks me for saying this... just know a little bit more about me.

My Aunt Carol was a lesbian and I adored her. Our family was really close, and when she killed her lover Ruth it really caused our family major heartache. Not only did we have to deal with the trial that could have been a death penality case (something that all of us, inculding Aunt Carol supported)... we had to go into the prosecutors bringing out Aunt Carol and Ruth's entire relationship and everything that went with it out in the open.

The fact that Ruth was abusive to Carol and her own children wasn't the hard part to deal with. It was the other things that came out (we really didn't need the fact that Aunt Ruth's oldest son was sexually molesting my male cousin being released to the media). They brought out all kinds of things in an effort to use them to give Aunt Carol motive for killing Ruth.

Trying to make it look like it had been premeditated murder, when the fact of the matter was nothing like that... Aunt Carol and Ruth had gotten into a fight about Ruth's youngest son (who was 14, and she was going to throw him out of the house) while they were at a local gaybar and had been drinking just way too much. It had ended with Ruth throwing Aunt Carol across the bar and breaking a table. Ruth was then thrown out of the bar while they took care of Aunt Carol, and because Aunt Carol had the car keys she started walking the three miles back home. When Aunt Carol woke up she went and got into her car and headed home, and she said that she never rembered hitting Aunt Ruth nor having dragged her dead body under the car all the way home.

After she was found guilty and senticed to prison, we would travel the four hours to go see her every month, and my mom and grandmom would have to put up with the security checks to get into the prison... and I would have to sit with my sisters (one was a toddler and the other an infant) because we were not allowed inside to see Aunt Carol because we were too young and it was a max security prison. We didn't get to see her until they transfered her to a minimum security prision during the last years of her sentice before she was finally paroled.

When Aunt Carol died earlier this year i put my broken body in a tiny car and rode for 4 hours one way for her funeral. That's how much i loved her and cared for her.

Oh... I also have two 'adopted' brothers who are openingly gay, and many of my stances comes through our relationship together.

Now, I recently tried to give an 'intersexed' person a word of encouragement... and all i got out of it was a flipping hatefilled stalker that the police had to deal with, because they accused ME of being the one filled with hate because of my political affiliation when it was THEM who was attacking me with nothing but HATE.

So none of this is coming from hate... but a philosophy that there are things that are public, things that are private. And that if you allow someone to take a single part of you, and identify you ONLY by that... you are allowing them to control you.

John Wayne said it best...

The Hyphen

The hyphen. Webster’s dictionary defines as a symbol used to divide a compound word or a single word.

So it seems to me that when a man calls himself Afro-American or Mexican-American or Italian-American or Irish-American or Jewish-American, what he’s saying is “I’m a divided American.”

Well, we all came from other places, different creeds, different races, to form a nation, to become as one. Yet look at the harm a line has done, a simple little line, and, yet, as divisive as a line can get. A crooked cross the Nazis flew, and the Russian hammer and sickle, too – time bombs in the lives of Man.

But none of these could ever fan the flames of hatred faster than the hyphen.

The Russian hammer built a wall that locks men’s hearts from freedom’s call. The crooked cross flew overhead above 20 million tragic dead, among them, men from this great nation who died for Freedom’s preservation.

A hyphen is a line that’s small. It can be a bridge or it can be a wall. A bridge can save you lots of time; a wall you always have to climb.

The road to Liberty lies true. The hyphen’s use is up to you.

Used as a bridge, it can span all the differences of Man. Being free in mind and soul should be our most important goal.

But, if you use the hyphen as a wall, you’ll make your life mean and small.

An American is a special breed whose People came to her in need. They came to her that they might find a world where they’d have peace of mind, where men are equal, and (something more), stand taller than they stood before.

So you be wise in your decision, and that little line won’t cause division. Let’s join hands with one another, for in this land, each man’s your brother. United we stand; divided we fall.

We’re Americans. That says it all.

And even if you aren't an Ameircan... this goes for your nations as well.

Look at what the type of multicultralism that divides people has brought to Europe. You have enclaves of extremists that are being breed in government sponsored poverty and misery mills that natives of their own country are terrified of going into (or entire parts of their home towns that they are being forced out of thanks to racially motivated violence against them). This is happening all across Western Europe & Great Britain, it's blatantly obvious for anyone willing to admit it to themselves.

The simple fact is this...

"A house divided against itself cannot stand." - Abraham Lincoln

And this new policy is taking something that should be PRIVATE and is making it PUBLIC. It's making it to where the types of people at the Gay Pride Parades who dress in a nun's habit and invade a Catholic Church hurling profanty and other epitahs at everyone... or run around naked in fetish gear and perform actual homosexual sex acts in front of children can join the armed forces and make EVERYTHING about their sexual orientation.

And all this does is make for a hostile work enviroment for EVERYONE. It can make morale a major problem, and the first time one of the 'in your face' types does something that is a major violoation of the UCMJ, it's going to be made into a federal case and they'll be screaming that it's all about homophobia and not the fact that they did something wrong.

All this current situation does now is make an issue that should have remained private in the first place. The military is not a place to be playing with 'social engineering' because any mistakes can end up getting alot of people killed.

There are those where who supported the idea of Summery Executions during T2k for 'troublemakers'.

So think about that for a second.

Is any unit going to be able to handle someone who is so "in your face" about their sexuality that it becomes uncomfortable for others who don't share their sexuality in the unit? And what's going to be the answer to that problem. Is the fact they are causing morale problems going to be dealt with without cries of Homophobia?

[Fusilier]

I don't think most are trying to make it anyone's business anymore than a hetero person does. They just don't want to have to keep it hidden in fear of losing their jobs for something that isn't job performance related.

Just because you don't have to hide something doesn't mean it's becomes an issue. Only other people with issues with it do that in most cases. Sort of like complaining that it is being forced down people's throats... as opposed to what hetero people do in public.

[natehale1971]

I don't think most are trying to make it anyone's business anymore than a hetero person does. They just don't want to have to keep it hidden in fear of losing their jobs for something that isn't job performance related.

Just because you don't have to hide something doesn't mean it's becomes an issue. Only other people with issues with it do that in most cases. Sort of like complaining that it is being forced down people's throats... as opposed to what hetero people do in public.

thats just it. We aren't talking about MOST. We are talking about those that make it an issue and force the issue. The 'DADTDP' policy allowed homosexuals to serve. The proof is that they have already been serving in the Armed Forces. The 'Identity Politics' that puts a single facit of life as the sole way of being identified is what is being used here. There are people who live their lives quietly and do what they do without anyone knowing anything about it, are NOT the ones we're talking about.

We're talking about the ones who throw it in everyone else's face and makes even those who might support the idea of what they are wanting feel dirty and discusted with their actions. You know, the type of person who wouldn't take no for an answer. The type of people who make it a federal case with the accusations that everything is against them because of something that is a private matter that THEY had made a public issue.

[Targan]

There was one gay and one bi important NPCs in my last campaign. None of the PCs cared at all. There were some problems with a pair of redneck important NPCs harassing and bullying a gay NPC in the group but the CO warned them off and that was that. There was also some tension due to unrequited lust but these things just added to the flavour of the game IMO.

There was also a nasty incident of homosexual rape against one of the PCs. He was able to kill all of his attackers though so that somewhat mitigated the psychological damage he suffered. After that the PC group's hostile activities against the CIA in the NYC-Jersey area REALLY ramped up. Vengence was definitely had.

[Fusilier]

Oh ok.

However I do think there is a fringe minority with every type of group out there. Some people just want attention, even negative attention, whether it is about their sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. A rule of silence doesn't seem to help.

[Fusilier]

I can't see the gay extremists 'driving it down other people's throats' this bad though...

U.S. Soldiers Punished for Not Attending Christian Concert
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/08/19/u-s-soldiers-punished-for-not-attending-christian-concert/

[natehale1971]

There was one gay and one bi important NPCs in my last campaign. None of the PCs cared at all. There were some problems with a pair of redneck major NPCs but the CO warned them off and that was that. There was also some tension due to unrequited lust but these things just added to the flavour of the game IMO.

There was also a nasty incident of homosexual rape against one of the PCs. He was able to kill all of his attackers though so that somewhat mitigated the psychological damage he suffered. After that the PC group's hostile activities against the CIA in the NYC-Jersey area REALLY ramped up. Vengence was definitely had.

In the groups ive played T2k (TMP, and other games as well)... we had many characters who were Homosexual or Bisexual.

In one campaign, we had the senior officer who was a bisexual woman who had a 'group marriage' with sister-wifes and a male character.

We had an openly gay male who had volunteered when his brother had been killed during the start of Euro-Soviet War when a soviet airforce bombing attack had hit their home in the UK. He was probly the most 'conservative' of the characters (he had the statement of "Don't judge me, I won't judge you" tattooed on his upper arm in this really detailed scorll work on what looked like a Coat of Arms).

We had another openly gay character in another campaign who was flamboyantly gay... and looked like a burly lumberjack. When we saw the movie the Birdcage most of us thought of him (the character played by Robin Williams).

We had a run-in with a downed Royal Air Force pilot that was a lesbian who had set up an all-female armed camp that was composed mostly of polish and east german civilin women, and a few female military personnel from NATO states, Poland and East Germany. Most of the women were scared of men because of gang rapes done by Soviets (whom they didn't even offer chances of surrender, they just killed them).

In another campaign, we had a gay PC whose player kind of went off the deep end, and used personal feelings to have his character to rape and mutilate a PC controlled NPC to get back at a percieved insult IRL. It did not end well... in the game or out. the Master-at-Arms basicly showed up and a captain's mass came out of that one.

I've gamed with many groups over the year. And we've had people of all kinds of orientations and ideals represented around the gaming table and in game worlds... and the after game discssions were always interesting to listen into.

[natehale1971]

I can't see the gay extremists 'driving it down other people's throats' this bad though...

U.S. Soldiers Punished for Not Attending Christian Concert
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/08/19/u-s-soldiers-punished-for-not-attending-christian-concert/

while that is pretty bad, the person who did something like this will be punished. because they acted beyond their power and authority. And things like this aren't that common, while identity politics homosexual activists have stormed alot of churches, have engaged in public sex acts during gay pride parades, and other actions.

The person repsonsible for this will be punished and have no grounds to stand. But the idenity politcs activists will always fall back on accuastations of 'Homophobia' and 'Bigoitry'... because history has shown this, time and time again.

[Fusilier]

while identity politics homosexual activists have stormed alot of churches, have engaged in public sex acts during gay pride parades, and other actions.

In the military though? In uniform?

My point was just that despite the silence being lifted off of gays in the military, I just don't see them driving that down other people's throats.

[ArmySGT.]

I can't see the gay extremists 'driving it down other people's throats' this bad though...

U.S. Soldiers Punished for Not Attending Christian Concert
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/08/19/u-s-soldiers-punished-for-not-attending-christian-concert/

That is a Commanding General that should be Court Martial-ed. If convicted to do time, lots of time, at Ft. Leavenworth.

To be followed by each Officer and NCO that obeyed that Order, down to Corporal if necessary.

[natehale1971]

In the military though? In uniform?

My point was just that despite the silence being lifted off of gays in the military, I just don't see them driving that down other people's throats.

Yes. I can see that. And so can my friends who are openly gay who have NOT been happy about this. While I HOPE that recruiters and induction centres will be able to keep those kinds of problems OUT of the service. But you know that if they can use the 'homophobia' excuse to make a federal case out of it.

Oh... I just checked out the website you posted that news article from, and you might want to reconsider them as a source... they're saying that Adam Gadahn is a fake member of al-Qeada, and that the Isrealis are the one who claimed to be al-Qeada threatening Iranian President Ahmadinejad for failing to give “them” credit for 9/11. Things that i've only seen on conspiracy theory news groups.

[natehale1971]

That is a Commanding General that should be Court Martial-ed. If convicted to do time, lots of time, at Ft. Leavenworth.

To be followed by each Officer and NCO that obeyed that Order, down to Corporal if necessary.

Don't worry SGT, this is the rest of the story...

Army says troops wrongly punished for skipping concert
A staff sergeant erred when he banished dozens of soldiers to their barracks and ordered them to clean up after they refused to attend a Christian concert on a Virginia Army base last year, an investigation concluded.

By STEVE SZKOTAK

The Associated Press

Related

RICHMOND, Va. — A staff sergeant erred when he banished dozens of soldiers to their barracks and ordered them to clean up after they refused to attend a Christian concert on a Virginia Army base last year, an investigation concluded.

When the Army learned the soldiers were punished, the company commander apologized to them the next day, according to the investigation's findings, released Tuesday to The Associated Press.

The actions of the staff sergeant, who was not named, were referred back to his battalion commander for nonjudicial action, according to Col. Daniel Williams, a spokesman for the Army's Document and Training Command. He said any punishment, if it occurred, would be kept confidential.

The sergeant's actions in May 2010 at Fort Eustis in Newport News, Va., were not consistent with the voluntary nature of the concerts, Williams said.

"The command did not find sufficient evidence to indicate there was any malicious intent and therefore deferred any discipline down to the battalion command," Williams said.

Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which first reported complaints by the soldiers, described the investigation's conclusion as typical for the military.

"Blame some lower-ranking enlisted guy who didn't know any better," he said. "That is just a completely inappropriate and disgraceful statement."

Weinstein called the Christian concerts "an absolute attempt to establish fundamental Christianity in the military."

Williams described them as "nondenominational with no particular religious affiliation."

Two soldiers who were punished told the AP they felt pressured to attend a performance by the Christian rock group BarlowGirl, as part of what was billed as the "Commanding General's Spiritual Fitness Concerts."

The soldiers said the staff sergeant told 200 men in their barracks they could either attend or remain confined there. They were told to not use their cellphones or personal computers and to clean up their living area.

The investigation did not dispute the soldiers' statements.

Williams said the concerts, which continue to be staged, are strictly voluntary, as they had been in May 2010.

The sergeant, Williams said, "marched a unit over to the Spiritual Fitness Concert thinking he was doing the right thing. He found out a very short time after that, no, that was not the right thing to do. He was corrected."

About 20, including several Muslims, refused to attend based on religious beliefs, the solder said.

Since then, the Army has reinforced the volunteer nature of the concerts through e-mails and training, Williams said.

[Fusilier]

Oh... I just checked out the website you posted that news article from, and you might want to reconsider them as a source.

They aren't actual source. The website is just reposting it from the Associate Press, just as others like msnbc seen here...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38792399/ns/us_news-life#.ToUG9WG4cas

[natehale1971]

They aren't actual source. The website is just reposting it from the Associate Press, just as others like msnbc seen here...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38792399/ns/us_news-life#.ToUG9WG4cas

That's good... the site is very anti-Semitic and anti-Israel, and I went a head and posted the AP article that showed what happened to the person who was responsible for this isloated action. While this is an isolated incident, there are homosexuals going over the top at Gay Pride Parades and storming churches on so many occassions that it causes police to have to deal with them. And causes the majority of homosexuals to feel horrible because those actions can put them all in a bad light.

And should i repeat the statement, what i'm saying has been told to me by actual Gays who are terrified of this kind of thing happening IRL and it causing problems that will get people killed?

[Fusilier]

While this is an isolated incident, there are homosexuals going over the top at Gay Pride Parades and storming churches on so many occassions that it causes police to have to deal with them.

Are they soldiers?

[natehale1971]

Are they soldiers?

Are you NOT READING what I'm typing or something?

With the new policy these kinds of people can now get into the armed forces and MAKE IT AN ISSUE. As it was, it wouldn't be an issue. Because even HETEROSEXUAL sex acts (even nothing more than heavy kissing and petting) being done in public WHILE IN uniform is AGAINST THE UCMJ and military policy.

All it is going to take is ONE idenity Politics activist getting in and DOING THIS.

Are you not getting what I'm saying here is the FEAR of not just me, but of Openingly gay people that I know?

[Fusilier]

I'm just asking if they are doing all of this as you say, or is it only speculation on future events.

[natehale1971]

I'm just asking if they are doing all of this as you say, or is it only speculation on future events.

Yes, there are people who are doing this already... because of DADTDP we don't know if they are active duty military when they do it. But there are active duty military who were protesting DADTDP by handcuffing themselves to the fence of the white house, and the Obama administration had the press cleared from the area so they couldn't see it while the Park Police came in and arrested them!

Do a google search for gays storm church. Or a search for gay pride parade sex acts. and you'll find news stories of the kinds of things happening that worries people. The Identity Politic Activists put their single issue ABOVE everything else. My openly gay adopted brother is terrified of something like this happening because of the kind of backlash that will come from it. He was horrified when he saw the news reports of a group of gay activists mob a little grandmother who didn't even try to defend herself, because he was terrified that it could cause a backlash against gays everywhere. He had been involved in activism for gay rights for years before he was pushed out of it by the kind of radicals that I am talking about who are now going to be able to join the armed forces and cause problems.

Don't believe me it can't happen?

There are articles about anti-war protestors who have joined the armed forces just so they could use the fact they were active duty to protest the war by going AWOL saying they did not want to participate in 'an illegal war'

when politicans start using the armed forces for political means, it opens up the way for people to come in and do things that will get people killed. And when that happens they try to blame it on the miltiary personnel involved, and not hold those responsible who set things into motion. It's like charging the bullet for the murder that has been committed, while letting the person who pulled the trigger walk.

DADTDP was a policy that allowed homosexuals to serve, and ask any active duty personnel who've served during that period and they'll tell you that they've more than likely known homosexual service members who lived their lives without it having been a problem.

Hell... the first three years of my time in the Navy there wasn't DADTDP, and i knew personally over a hundred gays who served at the various commands I had been assigned too. And in several of those cases, it was an open secret about their sexuality. And as long as they didn't make it an issue it wasn't a problem. Just like Paul has said about his counseling of gay members when he was in.

Need I say again that my gaming group when i was in the navy had a gay couple in it, and that we gamed every day when we were at sea? We didn't have the kind of communications methods today back then, so they couldn't have been civilians who played via Sykpe.

[ArmySGT.]

Don't worry SGT, this is the rest of the story...
First I am not after you. However I am going tear this piece a new one.

Army says troops wrongly punished for skipping concert
A staff sergeant erred when he banished dozens of soldiers to their barracks and ordered them to clean up after they refused to attend a Christian concert on a Virginia Army base last year, an investigation concluded. Took a year to cover their asses and re-assign the guilty, and probably assign some of the wrongfully punished (vocal too) to assignments to appease them.

By STEVE SZKOTAK
The Associated Press
Related
RICHMOND, Va. — A staff sergeant erred when he banished dozens of soldiers to their barracks and ordered them to clean up after they refused to attend a Christian concert on a Virginia Army base last year, an investigation concluded. Right. A Staff Sergeant. No one E-7 and above in a trainee unit was aware. …………….. Really.
When the Army learned the soldiers were punished, the company commander apologized to them the next day, according to the investigation's findings, released Tuesday to The Associated Press. Ooooooooo sorry about those Civil Rights, ya kinda like those Freedoms you been protecting , but not like the Army says. An Apology. That’s a start, not a completion.
The actions of the staff sergeant, who was not named, were referred back to his battalion commander for nonjudicial action, according to Col. Daniel Williams, a spokesman for the Army's Document and Training Command. He said any punishment, if it occurred, would be kept confidential. BAM! Your damn skippy it went onto the Battalion Commander. It is not a Trial! There will be no Witnesses, NO Examination, No Cross Examination, and No Jury. The Guilty never even set foot in Court.
Total and Complete SHAM.
The sergeant's actions in May 2010 at Fort Eustis in Newport News, Va., were not consistent with the voluntary nature of the concerts, Williams said.
"The command did not find sufficient evidence to indicate there was any malicious intent and therefore deferred any discipline down to the battalion command," Williams said.
Bullshit. The CoC was involved, if you don’t find Jesus, you won’t find promotion. That Staff Sergeant had many layers between him and the Company Commander. Let alone the CO probably want to “Show more participation, in front of the CG.”

Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which first reported complaints by the soldiers, described the investigation's conclusion as typical for the military.
"Blame some lower-ranking enlisted guy who didn't know any better," he said. "That is just a completely inappropriate and disgraceful statement." Consistent with my experience.
Weinstein called the Christian concerts "an absolute attempt to establish fundamental Christianity in the military." I am just surprised it has been allowed to come out of the background. Little tidbits like the ACOG scandal make you realize how broad it is.
Williams described them as "nondenominational with no particular religious affiliation." Why am I funding this! This is tax payer money, and Army budget! That damn money should have been spent on training ammo, better Leadership schools, more vehicles, better Single Soldier housing, buying Training land in areas similar to where wars are fought now.
I am seething. So angry I am having a hard time typing.
Two soldiers who were punished told the AP they felt pressured to attend a performance by the Christian rock group BarlowGirl, as part of what was billed as the "Commanding General's Spiritual Fitness Concerts." I am sure that it was hinted at by all Levels of their Command. Make the CG happy, get your ticket punched.
Mandatory fun day has become mandatory Jesus camp day.
The soldiers said the staff sergeant told 200 men in their barracks they could either attend or remain confined there. They were told to not use their cellphones or personal computers and to clean up their living area.
The investigation did not dispute the soldiers' statements. Uh, huh. You can tailor your questions to get a specific range of answers. It is something you learn so you don’t make a mistake, however it is a tool if one is being disingenuous.
Williams said the concerts, which continue to be staged, are strictly voluntary, as they had been in May 2010. Why are they continuing! Why! The US Army is not a spiritual force. There are Chaplains and Chapels to serve for those that desire it, however the US Army is not Gods Army. This flies completely in the face of the Anti-Establishment Clause . Being Cheeky by naming is a spiritual anything, when it is clearly Evangelical and intended to be from the start.

The sergeant, Williams said, "marched a unit over to the Spiritual Fitness Concert thinking he was doing the right thing. He found out a very short time after that, no, that was not the right thing to do. He was corrected."
About 20, including several Muslims, refused to attend based on religious beliefs, the solder said.
Since then, the Army has reinforced the volunteer nature of the concerts through e-mails and training, Williams said. Punishments were likely suspended (can’t remember what it is called) and he was shuffled around for a bit. Then he will be rewarded for being a good ol boy. I expect he will retire as an E-8 if he keeps out of the Papers.

[natehale1971]

If you think that story is bad SGT... here's something from the other end of the spectrum (and from things i've heard, it's not the first time something like this has happened).

Firefighters forced into 'gay' parade win case
Jury finds San Diego subjected 4 to 'simulated sex acts' in 2007 event

18 February 2009

Four San Diego firefighters who were ordered by their department to appear in the city's 2007 homosexual "Pride Parade" have been awarded $5,000 each for emotional damages from the event, where they were forced to witness "simulated sex acts."

"Government employees should never be forced to participate in events or acts that violate their sincerely held beliefs," said Charles LiMandri, the West Coast regional director for the Thomas More Law Center. He's also affiliated with the Alliance Defense Fund.

"We are pleased with the jury's verdict recognizing the firefighters' right to abstain from activities that they consider morally offensive and that subject them to harassment," LiMandri said.

The jury verdict yesterday came in the case brought by Capt. John Ghiotto and firefighters Jason Hewitt, Alex Kane and Chad Allison.

Ghiotto was awarded $14,200, with $5,000 for emotional distress, while others were awarded $5,000 apiece, according to KGTV-TV in San Diego.

LiMandri said the main goal was that firefighters, all Christians, no longer will be subjected to such treatment.

The firefighters had been ordered to participate in the July 21, 2007, promotion of homosexuality and explicit sex.

WND reported earlier when attorney LiMandri made clear the liability held by the city of San Diego.

"These men were sexually harassed in clear violation of San Diego's sexual harassment code," LiMandri said. "Further, the California Constitution's freedom of speech provision prohibits compelled speech. What the firefighters were ordered to do was endorse what goes on at this parade through their participation in it."

The case detailed how the firefighters were sexually harassed through lewd cat calls and obscene gestures at the event, which was replete with sexual displays and graphic images.

The men then suffered harassment and retaliation after complaining to superiors, the complaint said.

"Many people may mistakenly think the 'gay pride' parade is merely a 'fun' event," said ADF Senior Counsel Joe Infranco, who is co-counsel in the case. "They never would have imagined the crude sexual harassment these firefighters were forced to endure. But in truth, the goal of homosexual behavior advocates is to undermine society's long-held values. They continue to seek this, whether by demanding participation in 'gay pride' parades or by trampling the democratic process to redefine marriage."

Following the launch of the lawsuit, the city changed its fire department policy so firefighters no longer will be forced to participate in the promotion.

LiMandri said the firefighters had expressed concerns before the parade about the sexual harassment prevalent there and said they did not want to appear to be endorsing homosexuality, which violated their own religious beliefs.

Instead of recognizing the concerns, the city "informed my clients that if they did not march, they could face disciplinary action."

It was the second trial. The first, in October, ended when only eight jurors agreed the firefighters had been mistreated. Nine are needed for an affirmative decision. LiMandri said the October trial left disturbing results, including a judge's ruling that the firefighters' freedom of speech was not violated.

"This was the case even though the courts have consistently held that participation in a gay pride parade is a form of constitutionally protected expressive conduct, and the right to speak on a controversial public issue includes the right not to be compelled to speak," he said.


Ghiotto reported in a statement, "While moving down the parade route we were subjected to verbal abuse, (show me your hose, you can put out my fire, give me mouth to mouth, flick you fireman) sexual gestures, (showing their penis, blowing kisses, grabbing their crotch, rubbing their nipples, tongue gestures, flipping us off)."

San Diego's fire chief, Tracy Jarman, is an open lesbian who called the parade a "fun event" in which "all employees are encouraged to participate."

Ghiotto had reported, "We were subject to this type of abuse and more throughout the parade route. You could not even look at the crowd without getting some type of sexual gesture. Even the Christian protesters were giving us grief for being a part of this. The experience left me feeling humiliated, embarrassed and offended.

"If any of my crew or I were to hang up pictures at the station of what we saw, we would be disciplined!" the firefighter said.

[Fusilier]

Yes, there are people who are doing this already... because of DADTDP we don't know if they are active duty military when they do it.

I'm not sure I follow. You say soldiers are acting out and doing acts of social disobedience... but don't know if they were active duty? They are unidentified?

But there are active duty military who were protesting DADTDP by handcuffing themselves to the fence of the white house, and the Obama administration had the press cleared from the area so they couldn't see it while the Park Police came in and arrested them!

Do you have a source for that?

Don't believe me it can't happen? (about gays storming churches)

No, I didn't say that. I'm not interested in civilians though. I'm discussing gays in the military since I am interested about the current situation within the forces.

DADTDP was a policy that allowed homosexuals to serve...

...until they were discovered by a superior or someone who didn't support with their orientation?

And as long as they didn't make it an issue it wasn't a problem.

That's great to hear. I'm happy to know there are people like that. I'm disturbed though that others were not so open minded and it resulted in the end of careers for some people.

Need I say again that my gaming group when i was in the navy had a gay couple in it.

Not at all. I don't have an issue or any questions relating to your personal experiences with gays.

[natehale1971]

What? You don't remember when 12 service members were protesting and the Obama White House ordered the Park Police to force the Press to get as far away as they could so they couldn't record what was happening?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20002942-503544.html

As for not knowing if they were active duty... the fact that there were people at gay pride parades wearing military uniforms doing some really strange things, and that no one was able to find out if they were active military isn't that hard to understand.

[Fusilier]

What? You don't remember...

I don't recall saying I didn't remember. I asked for a source. Please try to not put words in my mouth okay?

[natehale1971]

I don't recall saying I didn't remember. I asked for a source. Please try to not put words in my mouth okay?

then try to have the same curtosy for others.

[Fusilier]

As for not knowing if they were active duty... the fact that there were people at gay pride parades wearing military uniforms doing some really strange things, and that no one was able to find out if they were active military isn't that hard to understand.

There seems to be some confusion. I asked about a source about the white house hand cuffs. However, I was then referring to this (which was the focal point)...

While this is an isolated incident, there are homosexuals going over the top at Gay Pride Parades and storming churches on so many occassions that it causes police to have to deal with them.

I then asked, "Are they soldiers?"

So, I am asking did soldiers participate in the storming of churches? Or is the most heinous thing they did was handcuff themselves to the railing before the ban was lifted?

[Fusilier]

then try to have the same curtosy for others.

If you point out where I did I will be happy to.

[natehale1971]

If you point out where I did I will be happy to.

Then re-read the thread because i'm really getting tired of repeating myself. And I am not going to further hijack this thread. The Internet is FULL of news stories from valid news agencies that have covered this subject over the years. San Fran is notorious for the kinds of things happening that worries NOT JUST ME, but many in the Gay Community happening in the armed forces that will cause problems that will get people killed. If you can't understand that, then i'm sorry.

Now let's get this thread back on the subject of Female Combat Personnel.

[Legbreaker]

It appears some heads are getting a bit hot here.
May I suggest stepping away from the keyboard for about an hour and letting a bit of steam off elsewhere before responding?

And don't forget your helmet - the sky may fall what with me being a voice of reason! :eek:

[Fusilier]

Then re-read the thread because i'm really getting tired of repeating myself. And I am not going to further hijack this thread. The Internet is FULL of news stories from valid news agencies that have covered this subject over the years. San Fran is notorious for the kinds of things happening that worries NOT JUST ME, but many in the Gay Community happening in the armed forces that will cause problems that will get people killed. If you can't understand that, then i'm sorry.

Now let's get this thread back on the subject of Female Combat Personnel.

Ok. No problem. This will be my last post.

However you might want to entertain the idea that you are repeating yourself because some questions were not being answered.

I wouldn't be too worried though. There are gay people in Canada too, including the military. Not only that but when I was in the army, we didn't have laws that violated human rights which kept them from serving... and interesting enough, the gays didn't make a mess of things.

[Targan]

And don't forget your helmet - the sky may fall what with me being a voice of reason! :eek:

I think that alone has accomplished what I could not!

[natehale1971]

Ok. No problem. This will be my last post.

However you might want to entertain the idea that you are repeating yourself because some questions were not being answered.

I wouldn't be too worried though. There are gay people in Canada too, including the military. Not only that but when I was in the army, we didn't have laws that violated human rights which kept them from serving... and interesting enough, the gays didn't make a mess of things.

The Gays that I knew while in the Navy never felt their Human Rights were being violated, and I still know them to this day and they were the first ones who had expressed the fears I'm talking about.

[95th Rifleman]

Coming from a British perspective, I don't understand all the fuss. In the British military gay and lesbian soldiers are accorded the same rights as everyone else, hell they can get married and qualify for a family quarter.

This is a relatively recent thing but the British attitude, post-80's, has been really positive in this regard. Who you screw has nothing to do with how you fight.

In the post-2tk enviroment it'l be even less of a consideration as basic survival tends to be mor eimportant than cultural/religous bigotry.

[natehale1971]

Coming from a British perspective, I don't understand all the fuss. In the British military gay and lesbian soldiers are accorded the same rights as everyone else, hell they can get married and qualify for a family quarter.

This is a relatively recent thing but the British attitude, post-80's, has been really positive in this regard. Who you screw has nothing to do with how you fight.

In the post-2tk enviroment it'l be even less of a consideration as basic survival tends to be mor eimportant than cultural/religous bigotry.

Ture. who you sleep with is between you, your partner and God. And that's who it should stay with. The fear is that the identity politics activists are going to be able to get in, and start causing problems (there is a laundry list of cases of the kinds of things they have done in San Fran, the list of gays storming chrisitan churches, ect).

That's what my friends and family who are openly gay are worried will happen beause of what's going on with the so-called "gay marriage" debate with activists pulling some horrible things off to just get attention.

And as I have stated time and time again... I don't care who you sleep with, I just don't want you forcing it down mine or anyone else's throat. I had someone do that to me LITERALLY, not figureative. I was rapped. and they got away with it because of the political games being played at the time.

I am joining my adopted family was we just hope and pray that the recruiters and indoctrination & training centres will be able to weed out the ones who are Identitiy Political Activist who do horrirlbe things to get special 'gay rights'

[95th Rifleman]

Ture. who you sleep with is between you, your partner and God. And that's who it should stay with. The fear is that the identity politics activists are going to be able to get in, and start causing problems (there is a laundry list of cases of the kinds of things they have done in San Fran, the list of gays storming chrisitan churches, ect).

That's what my friends and family who are openly gay are worried will happen beause of what's going on with the so-called "gay marriage" debate with activists pulling some horrible things off to just get attention.

And as I have stated time and time again... I don't care who you sleep with, I just don't want you forcing it down mine or anyone else's throat. I had someone do that to me LITERALLY, not figureative. I was rapped. and they got away with it because of the political games being played at the time.

I am joining my adopted family was we just hope and pray that the recruiters and indoctrination & training centres will be able to weed out the ones who are Identitiy Political Activist who do horrirlbe things to get special 'gay rights'

Yeah, that's the issue. It's like the feminazis who hijacked the feminist movement. While most feminists wanted equal rights, the feminazis wanted MORE than equal, they wanted special treatment. Some gay-rights groups are the same, wanting special rights rather than just equality.

[natehale1971]

Yeah, that's the issue. It's like the feminazis who hijacked the feminist movement. While most feminists wanted equal rights, the feminazis wanted MORE than equal, they wanted special treatment. Some gay-rights groups are the same, wanting special rights rather than just equality.

Exactly the point that i was trying to make.

[Jason]

Ture. who you sleep with is between you, your partner and God. And that's who it should stay with. The fear is that the identity politics activists are going to be able to get in, and start causing problems (there is a laundry list of cases of the kinds of things they have done in San Fran, the list of gays storming chrisitan churches, ect).

That's what my friends and family who are openly gay are worried will happen beause of what's going on with the so-called "gay marriage" debate with activists pulling some horrible things off to just get attention.

And as I have stated time and time again... I don't care who you sleep with, I just don't want you forcing it down mine or anyone else's throat. I had someone do that to me LITERALLY, not figureative. I was rapped. and they got away with it because of the political games being played at the time.

I am joining my adopted family was we just hope and pray that the recruiters and indoctrination & training centres will be able to weed out the ones who are Identitiy Political Activist who do horrirlbe things to get special 'gay rights'

I am really trying to understand. First, I am sorry you suffered a personal degradation. Currently, 30%-40% of service members suffer a sexual assault, and 80%-90% suffer from sexual harassment. People that suffer military sex trauma (MST) are five times as likely to suffer from PTSD.

One third of female vets with PTSD that served in Iraq or Afgan have suffered military sexual trauma. Sex, both consensual and rape is happening in the military on a regular basis. Same-sex rape is not about sexual gratification or homosexuality, but it is about violent control and domination, and the vast majority of men that sexually assault other men identify themselves as heterosexual. Many rapists will attack either males or females, while in their consensual sex lives, they will only have sex with females. Some target males more than females as it gives them even a greater sense of power and control.

Based on the stats, I could argue that MST is endemic to the military.

I googled "gays storm church" and found one single incident in Lansing, MI. here in the U.S. One incident that had zero to do with the military.

Again, I am just trying to understand your point. You believe that there is a danger that the U.S. military is going to be infiltrated by gay activists bent on breaking rules to gain rights? Am I right?

[pmulcahy11b]

The person repsonsible for this will be punished and have no grounds to stand. But the idenity politcs activists will always fall back on accuastations of 'Homophobia' and 'Bigoitry'... because history has shown this, time and time again.

It's the US military -- no one will be punished for forcing anyone to worship in a proper Christian manner (however "proper" is defined by their superiors), except for the soldiers who speak out against it. Being a life-long atheist who's a vet, I know this from experience. There are a lot of hidden bigotries in the military, and religion is one of them.

And sorry, I couldn't figure out how to grab the quote that was the reason for Nate's answer.

[pmulcahy11b]

With the new policy these kinds of people can now get into the armed forces and MAKE IT AN ISSUE. As it was, it wouldn't be an issue. Because even HETEROSEXUAL sex acts (even nothing more than heavy kissing and petting) being done in public WHILE IN uniform is AGAINST THE UCMJ and military policy.


That's a big part of the point of removing the ban against being openly gay in the military, and then ensuring that the chain of command follows the new regs -- so there is no issue anymore. If you are in the military and being treated fairly and given the same opportunities that anyone else has regardless of sexual orientation, race, or religion, then you have nothing to bitch about except yourself. If you continually complain about being treated unfairly when you're not, you're just a troublemaker, and the military should show you the door, as you made the wrong career choice. If you unjustly complain so loudly about being treated unfairly so loudly that you make the military look bad, you should be treated according to the UCMJ as harshly as possible. Regardless of who you are.

But for a long time, gays in the military have voluntarily served the country while knowing if their sexual orientation ever leaked out, they could suffer anything from a beating to a court-martial, and it wouldn't matter how well they served their country. They joined anyway, because they wanted to serve their country that badly. The treatment of gays in the military to date is a point of dishonor to the entire military right up to the President. If you want to serve your country so badly you're willing to deal with such treatment, you're not a liar and you are not a pervert -- you are noble, honorable and patriotic, perhaps more than the typical soldier.

[95th Rifleman]

It's insane that in the 21st century to have a military that bars people based on sex, sexual orientation or religion. it's just bloody daft.

[natehale1971]

I am really trying to understand. First, I am sorry you suffered a personal degradation. Currently, 30%-40% of service members suffer a sexual assault, and 80%-90% suffer from sexual harassment. People that suffer military sex trauma (MST) are five times as likely to suffer from PTSD.

One third of female vets with PTSD that served in Iraq or Afgan have suffered military sexual trauma. Sex, both consensual and rape is happening in the military on a regular basis. Same-sex rape is not about sexual gratification or homosexuality, but it is about violent control and domination, and the vast majority of men that sexually assault other men identify themselves as heterosexual. Many rapists will attack either males or females, while in their consensual sex lives, they will only have sex with females. Some target males more than females as it gives them even a greater sense of power and control.

Based on the stats, I could argue that MST is endemic to the military.

I googled "gays storm church" and found one single incident in Lansing, MI. here in the U.S. One incident that had zero to do with the military.

Again, I am just trying to understand your point. You believe that there is a danger that the U.S. military is going to be infiltrated by gay activists bent on breaking rules to gain rights? Am I right?

Yes. There is, because that type of tactic has been used repeatedly in the past and currently in the present. And it's not just me who is worried about this, but openly gay men and women who have, and those who have not, served in the armed forces.

I'm not talking about the type of openly gay person who just wants to serve a country that they love. I'm talking about the kind who puts identity politics above the needs and welfare of others and their country.

Look up "Folsom Street Fair" and "Up your Alley" for some of the kind of things that the type of people that I'm talking about have just done in San Fran. There are other cities in the US and Europe where this kind of behaviour has been happening over the past 10+ years during so-called 'gay pride' parades. Men having sex with other men, or doing the 'leather' S&M sex acts IN PUBLIC infront of children is something that is just plan wrong.

And you didn't look hard enough if you only found out about Lansign church being attacked... because this has happened more than once here in the US AND in churches over seas.

Below is JUST ONE story that had happened in 1993, i can't find the story again that had been written in 2010 that covered 20 years of really obnoxious behavour that didn't help the gay rights debate, but set them back because it caused people who were already fearful of something they didn't understand. And if you take the time to look for them, you can find out about the many other cases of homosexual activists who have been going into churches and interrupting the services.

One of the groups actuallly had men that were dressed in Nun habits and kabuki stype makeup storming in and causing all kinds of problems in a catholic church. This one actually had video that showed the priest tried to keep the peace and he offered them a chance to take communion and blessings from the father, and then sit down and listen to the surmen. But that wasn't what the activists wanted. They just wanted to keep yelling and making all kinds of problems to disrupt the services.

It's THAT kind of thing that i'm talking about. That all this is being done for political reasons. There was a better way of doing this, and it wasn't taken.


News Release: Official Statement by Dr. David C. Innes

The following events took place on Sunday evening, September 19,1993, revolving around the regularly schedule 6:00 PM Sunday Evening Worship Service of the Hamilton Square Baptist Church, 1212 Geary St., San Francisco, California. Reverend Lou Sheldon, of the Traditional Values Coalition, was invited by the church to be the guest speaker.

Only the church's membership and regular attenders were notified of the service, through the church's own Sunday bulletin. No public notice or invitation was made in addition to this. However, in the September 16,1993 edition of the Bay Area Reporter, the meeting was announced in a front page article using intemperate, inflammatory language. A three-by-five ad on page five of the September 15,1993 edition of the San Francisco Sentinel announced a protest of the Sunday night service. The church has no knowledge of how, or from whom they obtained the information.



The church received telephone calls during the week prior to the meeting, demanding that our guest speaker should not come. Two people came to the church during that week asking to see the pastor and, speaking to the caretaker, notified him that we could not have Rev. Sheldon as a guest in our church, and that they intended to stop him.



The church's pastor, Dr. David C. Innes, made at least four calls to the Northern (Police) Station prior to the meeting, on Saturday and Sunday afternoon regarding the demonstration, expressing his concern for potential problems. He called the Northern Station immediately before the service, and requested more backup police because he felt the situation was not under control. He was informed that no backup would be sent unless requested by police that were present and further, that they had not requested it. Dr. Innes was told, "You must understand. This is San Francisco."



Homosexual and lesbian demonstrators began gathering around the church property as early as 5:00 PM.



The police were immediately notified by telephone of their presence. As people entered the building, demonstrators handed flyers purporting to be published by the church. These were also placed upon automobile windshields in the immediate area. By 6:00 PM a riot was under way. The rioters assumed complete control of the exterior property and grounds of the church. In spite of several requests to have them removed the officer in charge insisted that everything was under control and that police procedures and regulations would not allow him to do so.



At about the time of the beginning of the service, an usher, stationed himself in the courtyard to assist members in gaining entry to the building. The usher witnessed the destruction of church property and notified an officer who turned away and ignored him. The rioters recognized him as a church member, surrounded him and completely denied him any freedom of movement.



Pastor Charles and Donna McIlhenny were refused entry by the rioters, and told they could not enter the building. The doors were completely blocked by the rioters. Pastor McIlhenny held on to Donna as they began to make their way through the mob who were shouting and screaming in their ears, "You will not enter this church."



The rioters assaulted them, pushing and shoving them, seeking to keep them from the front door. One of them grabbed Donna's body, lifting her off the ground, and attempted to pull her back away from the entry. She stretched her arms out for help from a near by police officer who offered no assistance. Her son, seeing she was in trouble, pleaded with the officers to assist her. The officers appeared so overwhelmed by the rioters that they were unable to take control of the situation. Both of her hands were scratched (the skin was broken).



Finally, the church's caretaker grabbed her outstretched arms and pulled her through to the door, out of the hands of the rioters. As they made their way past the three police officers at the door, they were pelted by rocks, which also struck the window panes of the entry doors. Several members from Pastor McIlhenny's church also were accosted and had to flee to a side entrance. There they also found the entry blocked and had to remain outside until the riot police arrived and let them in the building. Pastor McIlhenny's son, Ryan and his friend were not able to enter the building.



The rioter removed the Christian flag from the flag pole, and attached the gay flag under the U.S. flag.



The church's caretaker removed both flags, but a rioter grabbed the gay flag and it was again run up the flag pole and the rope knotted out of reach. When the caretaker, again attempted to remove the gay flag, he was assaulted and hit with eggs. Being pushed back he was unable to reach the flag pole, and returned to the entry of the church. Much of the newly planted landscaping around the flag pole was damaged. One cement bench was pushed over into the fountain by rioters.



When the police were notified of this they refused to respond. A second bench was dismantled and the seat thrown over into a light well and destroyed by rioters. The rioters guilty of this vandalism described this wanton destruction of church property as "interior decorating." Paper messages were stuck to the handrails, walls and windows of the building.



A single parent, who is a church member, and her six year old daughter were told they could not enter the building. A rioter grabbed her daughter's arm as she was clinging to her mother, and began interrogating her. The mother and daughter finally entered the building by passing through the rioters.

The child was crying and terrified. The mother had also brought an elderly friend who was refused entry by the rioters. Twenty minutes passed before she was able to get her friend into the service. Along with these, many others of the elderly and children were terrorized.



To our knowledge, riot police were never called in by the officers present. They came only because the guest speaker left the worship service and called 911. The rioters were then removed from the courtyard area of the church property by the riot police. They proceeded to the emergency exit doors on the west side of the auditorium where they pounded and kicked the doors seeking to break them down. This disturbed the service in process that the service had to be temporarily discontinued.



The officers present were immediately notified. The pounding was so loud, that an elderly blind woman was terrified, thinking that the sound was gunshots. She began crying, feeling helpless and threatened, and was comforted by nearby members. Due to the forceful nature of the rioters' attempts to break down the doors, one of the exit doors was damaged in a major way, the door jam being broken.



Rioters continued their demonstration, standing on church property with their megaphone. The rioters then laid down in the intersection of Geary and Franklin, blocking the traffic. The rioters passed out the fraudulent flyers to waiting vehicles and pounded on the vehicles of those attempting to cross the intersection. The police took no action to remove them for approximately ten minutes. A woman demonstrator exposed her breasts to church members present in the area.


One woman, a regular attender at our services, and her husband were hindered from entering the building by the rioters who had been moved to the sidewalk. When she entered the building she was so terrified that one of our other ladies had to help her calm down. Another member stood across the street and did not enter because of fear of physical violence.



As the service was concluded, the people were split into three groups. All of the children were clinging to the parents, frightened to leave the building. Two groups exited out emergency exits. One group waited, and then exited out the main entrance. The people were shouted at and threatened by the rioters as they made their way to their cars, being called Christian bigots, hypocrites, fascists, homophobes, and other expletives, some obscene. An eight year old retarded girl, upon exiting through the front entrance was so traumatized upon being verbally accosted, that she fell down the steps.



The guest speaker was escorted by the police to the church van, as debris pelted him from the rioters.



Following his departure the rioters began to depart and the riot police were dismissed. The rioters shouted at the police, "You won't be here all night, but the church (building) will be."



Only two or three police officers remained to secure the building Dr. Innes, Rev. Eugene Lumpkin, and the church's associate Pastor with his wife and children remained inside. When this became known to the rioters, they returned in force to the church and began pounding on the front doors. The situation was once again out of control and Dr. Innes called 911 for reinforcements.



When the rioters saw the children standing in the lobby, they shouted "We want your children. Give us your children." The police asked us to move away from the entry. Dr. Innes, his associate and family left through another exit. A nine year old boy, was crying in hysterics, "They are after me. It's me they want." He did not calm down until the family was several miles from the building.



A rioter broke one of the large address numbers off the face of the building and attempted to remove others unsuccessfully. A citizen's arrest was made on this individual. The person making the citizen's arrest was verbally threatened by other rioters.



Officers told us they were informed by the rioters that our meeting was an open, public meeting, and they did not intend to prohibit the entry of the rioters onto our property. The pastor, Dr. Innes, informed the officers that this was a regularly scheduled church worship service and was not, as such, an open, public meeting, in the secular sense. He further informed the officers that no public notice had been made by the church inviting the public.



The police later insisted that they were bound by the rioters' claim that this was an open, public meeting and not a worship service.. We were informed by the police, that due to the city's police regulations and policies, the police were not allowed to enforce the law regarding the disturbance of church worship services and the presence of rioters on church property. Police estimates the number of rioters were approximately 75, although actual counts indicated a number closer to 100.



In spite of all this malicious disruption, not a single arrest was made by police outside of one citizen's arrest. The church's property was not secured, and the fundamental rights of the worshippers were not protected because, we were told, "The Board of Supervisors would never support the measures necessary to do so."

Upon leaving for the final time, several of the rioters said, "We will be back." Numerous obscene and threatening telephone calls have been received at the church following the riot.

[ArmySGT.]

I guess the issue closest to home to Soldiers is the Single Soldiers in the Barracks.

We separate Males from Females because of sexual lust. Separate showers so Females can go without harassment. Separate toilets, and same sex only living arrangements.

Now translate that to four Genders, oh wait six Genders

Heterosexual Male
Heterosexual Female
Gay
Lesbian
Transgender Male
Transgender Female.

[natehale1971]

I guess the issue closest to home to Soldiers is the Single Soldiers in the Barracks.

We separate Males from Females because of sexual lust. Separate showers so Females can go without harassment. Separate toilets, and same sex only living arrangements.

Now translate that to four Genders, oh wait six Genders

Heterosexual Male
Heterosexual Female
Gay
Lesbian
Transgender Male
Transgender Female.

actually you are forgetting the following... and beleive me that there are several more in the community as well.

Hetroflexible
Bi-Curious
Bisexual
Intersexed
Asexual

[Raellus]

Nate, first off, let me say how sorry I am that something so terrible happened to you. I can understand why this is such a painful subject for you and why you are so personally invested in it. I in no way excuse what happened to you or exonerate the scumbag[s] who did it. I respect your feelings about this issue, but I don't share your opinions.

Unfortunately, every civil rights movement has its radical fringe elements. The largely peaceful African-American civil rights movement of the 1960s had its Black Panthers. Apparently, the Gay Rights movement also has such elements.

I really don't think that this means that DA-DT should stand. Neither do I think that it's fair to condemn or punish an entire class of people for the heinous acts of a few. I know quite a few people with racist beliefs/feelings/thoughts based on their personal or second-hand experience with one or a couple or a few members of a certain minority group (ag. "My cousin got murdered by a black man."). These poor folks are basing their entire world view on a tiny, tiny, tiny sample size. They are quick to point out examples of bad things done by people belonging to said minorities, while ignoring anything good or noble done by others. And these poor folks ignore the benign nature of the vast majority of the minorities they villify. It's a logical fallicy.

I also don't quite understand that argument that the repeal of DA-DT will somehow encourage radical gay military men and women to disrupt military operations by conducting mass acts of moral terpitude or whatever. Even if a couple of instances of such behavior by gay members of the military occurs (which I seriously doubt), does that mean that all gays should be closeted or even banned in the U.S. armed forces. If a couple of white supremisists in the U.S. military commit a violent crime, should all white people be banned? If a straight a few straight military men commit a sexual assault on a female military woman, should all straight men be banned? It's just not logical or rational.

Also, the article you posted seems to describe an event that took place 18 years before DA-DT was repealed. I'm not sure how it's germaine to the debate here.

[natehale1971]

Wow Rae... that's classy. Call me a bigoit when I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT punishing all Openly Gay men and women. You didn't get a single thing I was talking about. Not. One. Bit.

I don't know how i can explain it any plainer so people can understand just what the hell I am saying.

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell, DON'T PERSUE" was a policy that took a persons sexual orientation and made it a NON-ISSUE. It made us all EQUAL in the eyes of the law. It didn't not make protected classes of a single group of people who have something different about them.

It placed EVERYONE on the same footing. And if you can't understand that, it's your problem. Don't talk to me again. Because I have had enough of people calling me a bigiot, a racist or a homophobe. Especially when I have more friends, loved ones and family who span the spectrum of humanity than those who are calling me those horrible names.

[Jason]

The military has never been a forum for significant civil disobedience, for reasons that should be obvious. The military authorities come down like a ton of bricks on soldiers that try to subvert the military mission. I just do not see any significant numbers of gays joining the military and going through basic and advanced, just to stage a scene in the name of activism.

I suppose it is possible, as activists have gone to extremes in the past, but I do not see how this has to do with DA-DT. Gay activists could have done this at any time correct? What stopped this type of activism under DA-DT?

[Raellus]

Nate, you misunderstand. I'm not calling you a bigot. I did not mean to imply that and I am sorry that I offended you and I think I understand why you are reacting defensively to my post. Please accept my apology.

I guess I went about constructing my counterarguments in the wrong way. I was using similarly charged episodes in our history/issues in our society to point out the flaws in your position. I see now that this was the wrong way to go.

I'm not going to slink away and be silent, though, because you are mad at me. If you have the right to share your opinions here, then so do I.


"Don't Ask, Don't Tell, DON'T PERSUE" was a policy that took a persons sexual orientation and made it a NON-ISSUE. It made us all EQUAL in the eyes of the law.

No, I don't get it. This doesn't make any sense at all. It's not even close to being true.

So, if back in the day a straight soldier was heard talking to his barracks-mates about his wild weekend with a female stripper, or domestic life with his wife, or relationship problems with his girlfriend, he would be kicked out of the military, just like the guy that talked about spending leave with his same-sex partner?

Straight soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines never openly/publicly talked about their heterosexual relationships during DA-DT? They were dishonorably discharged when they did?

I don't see any equality here.

[natehale1971]

No, you did. you insinuated that i'm a bigot for my simple expression of a fear that is held by many in the community, and tried to say that it's beause i was sexually asssulted by two men that i had a reason to be one.

You ignore the fact that I've repeatedly stated that i have friends AND family who span the specturm of humanity. What you did is just like so-called civil rights activists who call Herman Cain or Clerence Thomas racists or uncle tom's.

If someone abused their position of authority and threw soldiers out for being gay during DADTDP just because they were Gay, they should be ashamed of themselves andshould be thrown out of the military without any kind of benefits. Anyone who uses a position of athority (ANY position of authority) to force their own narrow-minded beliefs on others is something that should be punished and watched out for, and called to the carpet for it when found.

Those People in the barracks talking about their sextipades are BREAKING THE REGS. Even if it's hetrosexual sex they were talking about. They were the ones who SHOULD have been punished because they were creating a hostile working enviroment. We were not allowed to put up ANY pictures in our racks in the berthings, or on the walls because SOME men had been putting up nudie pictures that wouldn't have been seen by any one but themselves. That was a reg that effected everyone because of the actions of the few.

I keep having to mention the fact that I have two adopted brothers who are openily gay, and that they have been involved in local, state AND national gay rights groups for decades. Hell, I've taken part in and actually MARCHED at several equal rights events.

I have expressed a veiw point that wasn't just mine, but that of homosexuals who have witnessed the work they've done get unerminded by extremists who have forced perversity down others throats when they were doing the things like "up your ally" and "Folsum Street Fair" by perfroming ACTUAL homosexual sex acts and carrying out S&M acts on the street infront of everyone, incudling children. Oh, and they were especially doing it while standing beside these big signs that were saying that public nudity and violating basic public decency is against the law...

and the reason why they were doing it was the fact there were police standing by having to watch and not do anything because the mayor had ordered them not to enforce the decency laws.

DADTDP did make us all equal under the rules. In the policies own name spells it out. "Don't Ask. Don't Tell. Don't Persue." It's as simple as that. It's not the policies fault that there had been officers and senor NCOs who didn't live up to either the Letter OR Spirit of the regulations.

I've NEVER said that openly homosexual men and women shound't be in the armed forces. For God's sake I put in almost every post about the fact I was involved in the Gay Community of every command I was assigned too.

YOU made the insinuation that I'm a homophobe because i was sexually assaulted. Why the hell would i be one when it was the gays in the community who had got justice for me when it was the damn Clinton Administration who KILLED the homosexual rape investgations of not only my case but nearly a hundred others throughout the military?

THEY stood by me when a i was going through the third degree when i reported the assault, and they seethed in anger and hate when they couldn't even hold me when i was currled up in a ball crying because i couldn't handle ANY MALE touching me.

It took almost 15 years for me to get back to the point I could give EVERYONE I knew the same kind of hugs that I did when I would meet and leave them. Be they male or female, straight or gay. I didn't care. I treated everyone with the same love and respect that they deserved for being the Children of God.

I do not hold hate in my heart. Not for the men who raped me. Not for closed minded idoits who are running the country that I love into the ground with so-called 'progressive' policies that we can planly see with the example of Greece do not work.

I do not even have hate in my heart for my so-called wife who took my sons who are everything to me. An act that hurts so damn bad that I cry at just the memory of my sons. I spent Two hours in tears because of a damn mickey mouse commerical that reminded me of my infant son doing the mickey mouse club house dance.

If I can't find any hate in my heart for the woman who has hurt me that damn bad, how the hell can i be a bigiot?

I'm sick of people who call themselves open-minded who are anything but, who are getting away with labeling other people bigoits, racists or homophobes because they don't share the same narrow views.

Who you sleep with is NO ONES business.

What color your skin doesn't amount to NOTHING. It's only skin deep. Their blood and DNA is just like everyone elses. it does not make anyone better than anyone else, nor does it make them worth more or less than anyone else.

Who you pray to (or not) is not anyone elses business as long as you are not trying to kill others just because they don't share your beliefs.

I'm sick of people attacking me because of THEIR closed-minded hatefulnes. An the entire time they are attacking me with that hate, accusing me of being the one who is full of hate.

NO where in this thread (or anywhere else in the world) did i say that Gays shouldn't be in the military. NOT ONCE. I only expressed the concerns of many people in the community who are worried that the worse radical elements are going to now be able to do something so damn stupid it will put the entire community who only want to be excepted for WHO they are, and not WHAT they are back.

That we remember the the statements that all of us really want, is a world were EVERYONE is judged by the Content of their Character and not the color of their skin, not by their sexual orientation, not by their religious (or lack their of) beliefs. That it is not the government's job to provide equal outcomes, but to ensure that we all can start out with the equal opurtunities to achieve life, liberty and the persuit of private property & happiness without a fear that someone is going to kill us because we're different in some percieved way.

[Targan]

Wow. I wake up this morning, log on to check the forum and this conversation is not only still running, it's getting MORE heated? Maybe I shouldn't have moved this to a new thread, I probably should have locked it like I threatened to.

Nate, I understand you're upset and I sympathise with your personal experiences. Matter of fact pretty much everyone who has responded to your posts in this thread seems to empathise with you. You're among friends here. If this thread is just going to continue to upset you shall I lock it for your sake?

For the record (and this is directed generally, not to one specific person) I like to moderate with the lightest hand possible. I'm totally against censorship and the stifling of free expression. But I'm worried that this thread is generating bad blood and I'm not sure if it's continuation will bring more good than bad.

Ball's in your court, gentlemen. If things are still going south a couple of hours from now, this thread will be closed.

[Raellus]

Nate, you're right, I have no idea what's going on here. I'm still very confused as to what your position on DA-DT and gays in the military (then and now) is.

Once again, I am sorry for offending you. That was not my intention.

I guess I will opt out of this discussion. It was never meant to be personal but that is what you are making it. I'm not sure how to respond to accusations of close-mindedness, and hatefulness. I've apologized to you; I meant it (and still do). I should have left it at that.

At this point, I believe that too much damage has been done. I regret participating in this thread.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think that with this thread, we took a grenade to the face.

[natehale1971]

Rae, how hard is it to not understand where i stand?

Haven't I stated it repeatedly, that I had no problem with openly homosexual men and women in the armed forces. That "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Persue" took something that was an entirely PRIVATE matter and kept it Private. That when i was in the Navy I was part of the alternative sexuality community of every command that I was assigned too because I would get hit on by a homosexual servicemember who thought i was gay because of my sexual naivate due to my virginity.

While I didn't like the way that the military came up with DADTDP policy, i supported it and felt that it made us all equal. THe part I didnt like was because it was a policy that at the time it was created... a political ploy of a politician who was playing politics with a group of people's lives. Just because of a single facit of something in their lives. That kind of political action that is dividing us from each other.

And they are doing it today. I get called a bigoit, a racist, a homophobe an islamophobe and half a dozen other things because I disagree with some of the policies that current administration has been doing that has been hurting the American Republic that I love. That they are playing idenity politics to divide us against one another.

Now while DADTDP wasn't perfect, namely because there were narrow-minded people who were in positions of authority who had forced their beliefs on others, and did not live up to the Spirit or Letter of the Regulations that were suppose to make us all equal. Is that the fault of the policy or of the people who are not carrying out the policy?

Paul spoke of counseling junior personnel who were homosexual and didnt use it against them. That's how DADTDP was suppose to work. He didn't prosecute them, he treated them as equals and helped them iny way he could within his power as a senior service member. He was the exlempary example of how the policy was suppose to have worked.

Every modern military on Earth has prosecuted homosexuals in the service, that does not make it right. And it is going to take a while to get rid of the bad apples who didn't live up to the example that Paul set.

By allowing identity politics to get a foothold in the armed forces, we are opening the door for bad things to happen when people who put that one facit of their idenity above all others are able to get in and cause problems. And there is a history of people within our community who are doing this. And there are alot of members of our community who are worried about that very element getting into a position to do the kinds of things that will set EVERYTHING backwards.

Rae... i accept your appoligy. and please except mine as well. I've been attacked repeatedly over the past year and half by people calling me a racist, bigoit and homophobe because an entire political party in this country has made it their policy to keep people divided into little groups that they can control and exploit.

This past week i was stalked at an event by someone who was throwing insults and hate at me, all the while calling me the one who was full of hate and bigotry when all i did was give them a compliment. Saying that they were a beautiful woman, and that no one should ever make them feel any less a woman because of how they were born when she was introduced to me at the event that one of my brothers had been invovled in setting up. All because they saw one of the republican campaign buttons on my utility vest, and saw my pro-military buttons and patches.

[pmulcahy11b]

All because they saw one of the republican campaign buttons on my utility vest, and saw my pro-military buttons and patches.

Hell, I'd give you a razzing for wearing pro-Republican campaign buttons -- but we'd have similar pro-military buttons and patches.

I can really confuse a lot of people, especially fellow Democrats, with my views. "How can you be against both the anti-gun lobby and the pro-gun lobby? How can you believe in personal gun ownership rights and believe the Second Amendment never had anything to do with personal gun ownership? How can you be a Democrat and still think that US prisons should be the worst shitholes imaginable?" Nit, nit, nit...

[natehale1971]

Hell, I'd give you a razzing for wearing pro-Republican campaign buttons -- but we'd have similar pro-military buttons and patches.

I can really confuse a lot of people, especially fellow Democrats, with my views. "How can you be against both the anti-gun lobby and the pro-gun lobby? How can you believe in personal gun ownership rights and believe the Second Amendment never had anything to do with personal gun ownership? How can you be a Democrat and still think that US prisons should be the worst shitholes imaginable?" Nit, nit, nit...

Do you really believe that the second amendment didn't have anything to do with personal gun ownership, when the founding fathers who wrote the documents actually stressed that was the case? my ancestor was Richard Dobbs Spaight SR, the rep from NC who had been adment about no bill of rights, no signing of the constitution.

Me i have problems with democrats who like to say Republicans have done nothing for civil rights, when it was the democrats who had segreated the armed forces and who fillibustered civil rights laws among other things.

Neither party is as pure as the wind-driven snow and have their problems. Neither the Conservative or Constutionalist Party are nationwide so I have to work with the Republicans until we can get a national conservative or constutional party when the other party is engaging in devisive political gamesmanship.

And it wasn't razzing that this person was doing. it was histerical verbal and physical assaults.

[Sanjuro]

At the risk of thread drift... I have just read James Ford Rhodes' History of the Civil War, which made clear a fact I had read before- the Republican Party, under Abraham Lincoln, was seen as the Radical party, while the Democratic Party was the party of vested interests, which voted against Emancipation, increased taxes, etc...
As a non-American, I found this a little surprising. When did the parties swap ends of the political spectrum?

[natehale1971]

At the risk of thread drift... I have just read James Ford Rhodes' History of the Civil War, which made clear a fact I had read before- the Republican Party, under Abraham Lincoln, was seen as the Radical party, while the Democratic Party was the party of vested interests, which voted against Emancipation, increased taxes, etc...
As a non-American, I found this a little surprising. When did the parties swap ends of the political spectrum?

The Republicans have maintained their desire that everyone be seen as equals under the law since their founding... that the color of a persons skin, who they worship (or not) or who they sleep with not be what matters. That the only way to judge people is by the content of their character.

The Republicans as a whole did at one time belive in big government as the answer to all ills, but that seemed to switch to the other party during the FDR era when Progressives had been pretty much discredited by Wilson and his policies... and really got discredited with the fact that the National Socialists in Germany and the Facists in Italy had adopted their policies and methods. Unfortuatnely, people today aren't looking at where things got their start... tracked them through history and seen all the things that were associated with that passage through time, and all the blood and suffering that has come form it.

[Webstral]

My friends, we've crossed into the realm of politics once again. Whatever each of us may believe about the evils, hypocrisy, and poor personal hygiene of one party or another, this is not the place to give vent. From this post onward, I'm going to delete every following post on this thread rather than play the game of he-said, I-said, why-are-you-showing-favoritism-to-Johnny. PM each other. PM me and tell me I'm a [insert preferred derogatory here].