Load Bearing Gear

[kota1342000]

Heres one I keep bumping into. Its a little nit picky but sometimes detail is fun on the roleplaying side.

Anyone have info or good spots to get summaries of Soviet, Chinese, NATO and Warsaw Pact types of web gear? Im thinking time periods for 1990 to 1995 for version 2 and 2.2), and post 2010 (for version 3).

[Top-Break]

Now this is going to be interesting. . .

Soviet web gear is probably the most frustrating subject, in part because they apparently didn't spend too many rubles on the concept.

Most Soviet infantry during the period were issued a belt, a 3 or 4 mag pouch, gas mask bag (with mask), and web braces, if lucky. Everything else was expected to be carried aboard the APC. Chest webbing, either Chicom or Russian copies, were particularly common in Afghanistan. Some troops would make their own out of rifle slings and belt pouches.

http://www.red-alliance.net/forum/index.php

This site has tons of Soviet/Pact information

http://ra.spetsnaz.su/wiki/Main_Page (http://www)

This is their Wiki page, with even more goodies.

[pmulcahy11b]

http://ra.spetsnaz.su/wiki/Main_Page (http://www)

This is their Wiki page, with even more goodies.

Are you sure you spelled the address right? It sounds juicy, but when I click on the link, I get a generic domain for sale page. You tease...:D

[Top-Break]

http://ra.spetsnaz.su/wiki/Main_Page

Not trying to tease, try it now . . .

[pmulcahy11b]

http://ra.spetsnaz.su/wiki/Main_Page

Not trying to tease, try it now . . .

Okey-doke. Damn page took forever to load and I have a 20 Mbps connection, but it looks good...

[B.T.]

The load-out for the normal (West-) German Infantryman in the 80ies was:

Koppel (Belt) with 2 2-cell mag-pouches (made of green plastic) for the G3, a folding E-tool (As far as I can see this is the same item as the US used.).

Maskentasche (= protective mask carrier), that was made from some kind of rubber, with the mask (which was obvious, wasn't it?), a personal decontaminaton kit, and a poncho (intended to be NBC-protective wear)

kleine Kampftasche (about the size of a butt-pack and when worn it was placed at the same location) with messtin set, cleaning kit for small weapons and a small stove for Esbit, to warm your meal. On the outside of the kl. Kampftasche a waterbottle had to be strapped on. It was similar in design to the old US waterbottle, but it was stowed in two metal "cups". Only one of them was actually a cup, the other half was just for transportation.

Belt and beltkit were supposed to be hold by the so called "Koppeltragehilfe" (Belt supporting device. "Hilfe" actually means help. One of those funny military names, that have nothing to do with reality!). This item was sooo ridiculous. It was a y-formed, flimsy peace of crap with to metal "hooks" on the front and one on the back. These "hooks" were so wide, that you really had to keep an eye on them. The belt usually slipped out of them and you could easily loose them.
Before this item had been fielded, the Bundeswehr used a design, that was very similar to the old Wehrmacht belt suspenders (the late war type made from canvas!), these were really good an practical and all our NCOs tried to keep theirs. These were to be fastened with 5 hooks, that had to be slipped over the belt.

Rucksack with shelter-half, shaving kit, parka, toilet things, 1 or 2 towels, a set of underwear. When the kl. Kampftasche was not on the belt, it was usually stowed in the Ruck. Sometimes we had to have a 2nd pair of boots with us, but that was not the norm.
On several occasions, but not normally, a sleeping bag was to be attached to the ruck.

The ruck, properly equipped, had a weight of 7 kg.

All the items were made out of gray-green canvas. The Koppel had a beltbuckle made of brass. These were originally painted olive, but all of the color had been scrapped off (on all beltbuckles I've ever seen). The carrier of the E-tool was a relatively light green plastic carrier.

MGunners were equipped with a small pouch for spares, this was made of black leather. Pistol holsters for the P1 were from black leather, also. Several items as optics for "Snipers", leichte Panzerfaust, the Carl Gustav and similar, were usually made from artificial leather, normally in olive-green. Mag-pouches for the Uzi were of the 3-cell type and were sand-colored (more or less).
Some units were equipped with an older model E-tool. It was a copy from the Wehrmacht-E-tool.

The whole outfit changed, when the new Flecktarn-uniform was fielded, although a lot of the older items were still in use alongside newer items.

[ArmySGT.]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Makes%20me%20laugh/Awesome/Throwbeerbottles.jpg

[ArmySGT.]

The Russian Soldiers' Equipment

by Warrant Officer 2 A.D. Bell

British Territorial Army

Editor's Note: Regular readers of the bulletin will know that Mr. Bell has been providing us with articles on former Soviet Army uniforms, accoutrements, and individual equipment since issue PB-30-90-3. He writes these articles in a unique style, as if composing a series of letters to a fellow uniform collector.

At the Office

Somewhere in England

Dear Joe:

It has been some time since we wrote, and so much has happened, that I thought you were no longer interested. However, Allen has told me that you still are. As the Berlin Wall has come down, and so many people are collecting Russian uniforms and badges, I'll cover something else-The Soldiers' Equipment: What goes in and Where." So what does every Russian soldier get (I'll not cover officers today)?

Let's look: the first item (see Figure 1) is a belt with a bright buckle (though some also get a subdued buckle) and a set of shoulder straps/yoke/suspenders.1 The material is normally webbing, covered in brown plastic, or black for Navy or Naval Infantry. There is a pouch for three AK magazines (or for the light machine gunner, one that holds four RPK magazines) as well as a small pouch to hold two hand grenades, with the mechanism and detonators held separately in a special compartment. Medical orderlies will have a modified pouch for medical equipment; one man in each rifle squad will also have this extra medical pouch.

The soldier also carries an entrenching tool (there are three different versions) with a carrying case; a water bottle in a cloth carrying-case (there is no mug with this); a rucksack; a poncho or shelter half (identical with the German Zelt plan); a steel helmet; a pilotka fatigue cap; a drinking mug; a mess tin set (also identical with the German, although I have seen airborne troops with a rectangular pattern); a knife, fork, and spoon; and a blanket. Special troops get a sleeping bag. There is also a greatcoat/overcoat2, washing and boot cleaning gear in a special locally-made bag, and NBC3 equipment, consisting of a decontamination kit, NAP4, the protective suit, all in another special locally-made carrying-bag, and the respirator/mask in its case.

For training, field exercise, or combat action, the following will be issued: weapon, bayonet, cleaning kit for the AK, and three AK or four RPK magazines (if the weapon is 5.45-mm caliber, then four or five strips holding twenty rounds each and a magazine loader are issued). Also, depending on the type of exercise, 24-hour rations, water purification tablets or drinking straw, and field dressings are issued.

Now where does all this go? First the equipment is assembled. Operational requirements dictate if this is to be "battle order," in which case the rucksack will remain on the BMP or BTR, and the soldier will wear the helmet, and put the water bottle on the belt. If it is to be "at rest" or "on the march" (on foot), the rucksack will be with the soldier.

On the soldier, the field dressings are in the left and right arm pockets, the NAP kit is in the left breast pocket, and water purification tablets are in the right thigh pocket. The rifle cleaning kit and oil bottle go in the small pockets on the magazine pouch.

For the NBC gear, the 1989 Dress Regulations state that the protective suit, boots, and gloves will be kept in a locally-made, easy-to-open bag. This bag will not be stored in the rucksack and can usually be found on top of the rucksack or suspended from the belt. The respirator must be in its case, slung over the right shoulder, and suspended on the left hip. The decontamination kit (IPP 1, 2, or 3) must be in the special pocket on the case.

In the rucksack are a towel, the shelter half/poncho, and the footcloths folded into a rectangle 30cm × 45cm (12 × 18 inches), placed into the bottom against the side nearest the soldiers back. The 24-hour rations (which cannot be opened without permission) are sometimes broken down and placed into the mess tins and drinking cup with the spoon and water bottle. The fork is not required, as most of the meals supplied are of the stew variety, and the bayonet replaces the knife. Any personal effects (photos, writing materials, etc.) go on top of the rations. If the pilotka is worn, then next in is the steel helmet. If the soldier has a blanket, it is strapped to the outside, and the remaining space filled with the greatcoat. In the small pocket is the locally-made bag with the washing and boot cleaning gear.

figure 1
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/SovietWebGear.gif
One of the questions asked by those who see the normal Russian rucksack for the first time is, "How is it carried?" as it appears to have only one shoulder strap, and that has both ends attached to its two bottom corners. Easy! (One can say that when one knows!) When the sack is full, the top is creased up to form a neck, and the drawstring is pulled tight. In the middle of the shoulder strap a slipknot is made, fitted over the neck tube, and pulled tight. The neck is pulled up through the loop, turned over the loop, and secured with the surplus drawstring. The blanket or greatcoat is rolled into a sausage and secured to the top of the rucksack. So now you know!

Now I must close and rescue my Russian 24-hour ration pack from the wife who is threatening to serve it for my tea.

Tommy

Notes.

1.The British Army designation is shoulder straps/yoke.

2.The British designation for the heavy overcoat is greatcoat.

3.NBC: nuclear, biological, chemical.

4.NAP is the British designation for the pre-attack tablets and the atropine auto-injector.

Editor's Note: Mr. Bell's previous article, which, appeared in PB-30-91-4 (October 1991), entitled "Soviet Field Uniforms," should have included the following figure. The uniform "Marks" referred to in that article, and in the diagrams of camouflage patterns, correspond to the illustrations in this figure. As Mr. Bell says, "This is really made a nonsense of the drawing of the camouflage patterns." The editorial staff concurs, and apologizes for the omission.

Soviet Field Uniforms
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Morrow%20Project/SovietUniforms.gif

[Fusilier]

The load-out for the normal (West-) German Infantryman in the 80ies was:

Just out of curiosity do you know much about the West German webbing in the 60s or so? When I was in the army we had a instructional film for defending a house that was made by the W.German army. It was an old film - probably in the early 60s.

Anyways, all of the soldiers had these two big rectangular boxes attached to their webbing (positioned over their back). They were crisscrossed if I remember correctly and were about 60cm long, 10cm wide, and 10cm high. Any idea what they were for or what they carried.

[kota1342000]

Outstanding everyone. Thanks much!

Doing a little bit of looking around what AmySgt and TopBreak have here, and I think its reasonable for Soviet troops to have Y-strap gear and combine it with a chest rig or reversed lifevest. Discussion or comments?

And BT, I remember seeing the plastic ammo pouches from German web gear...I cant remember where or when...

[Top-Break]

And BT, I remember seeing the plastic ammo pouches from German web gear...I cant remember where or when...

I've seen these too at surplus stores on occasion. As far as I know they were for G3 mags and were issued in the 70s and 80s.

[B.T.]

I've seen these too at surplus stores on occasion. As far as I know they were for G3 mags and were issued in the 70s and 80s.

That's all I know. They have been used well into the 90s in units equipped with the G3. But we never called them "Tupperware" :D!

Fusilier:
I've been looking through my pictures at home and tried to find something in the net, but I have no clue about the thingies you've asked for, sorry.

I think it is a little disturbing, how hard it is, to find anything concerning the Bundeswehr in the media or the net. There are only very few magazines dealing with this issue in Germany. You can get some good information and some good pics, but it's all about A'stan, at the moment.

[Top-Break]

I'm probably not the first person to call them that. Though it looks like I have the distinction of being the first on this board to do so.

But hey, it got some laughs so all is well.

I grew up in the Air Force suburbs of the '80s. Our fridge was packed with the stuff. . .

[Ronin]

Rain drop pattern East German Kalashnikov magazine pouch
http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa352/scaruss1/020.jpg
http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa352/scaruss1/021.jpg
http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa352/scaruss1/022.jpg
http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa352/scaruss1/023.jpg

[Fusilier]

Fusilier:
I've been looking through my pictures at home and tried to find something in the net, but I have no clue about the thingies you've asked for, sorry.

Ok, thanks for trying anyways. I appreciate it.

[Mahatatain]

For my T2k campaign I've done some research about Soviet Body Armour and Load Bearing Gear and found it difficult to find out exact information. I therefore made some arbitrary decisions on what was available in my campaign, even if it's not correct in real life.

The items I have currently in my campaign are:

Soviet Webbing

Lifchick Chest Harness3 Magazine pockets (holds 6 mags), 4 grenade pockets & loops for 2 flares - weighs 0.75kg
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7223/lifchikwebbing2.jpg


Grenade Belt (note - picture shows grenade belt & chest harness)
Attaches to Lifchick Chest Harness - 10 grenade pouches designed to hold 40mmS grenades - weighs 0.5kg
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/8469/lifchikwebbingplusgrena.jpg


"Afgan" Improvised WebbingThis first appeared during the Soviet War in Afghanistan and comprises two RD-54 quad mag pouches attached to a Soviet issue Y harness
2 Quad Magazine pouches (holds 8 mags) - weighs 0.75kg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7640/afganwebbing.jpg


VV-1 Assault Vest3 Magazine pockets (holds 6 mags), 2 grenade pockets, 5 utility pouches (2x small on front, 2x medium on sides & 1x large on rear) - weighs 0.75kg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7974/vv1assaultvest.jpg


V-95 Tactical Assault Vest4 Magazine pockets (holds 8 mags), 4 hand grenade pockets, 8 40mmS grenade pockets & 1 personal med kit pocket - weighs 0.75kg
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5862/v95assaultvest.jpg



Soviet Body Armour

6B3T Body Armour4 double magazine pockets (front - holds 8 mags), 4 grenade pockets (lower back) & 1 big pocket (upper back) - weighs 9kg - AV 2
http://a.imageshack.us/img413/9301/6b3tbodyarmour.jpg


6B5 Body Armour4 double magazine pockets (front - holds 8 mags), 4 grenade pockets (lower back) & 1 big pocket (upper back) - weighs 10kg - AV 2
http://a.imageshack.us/img814/4251/6b5bodyarmour2.jpg


Kirasa Universal Body ArmourNo pockets - weighs 4kg - AV 1
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/973/kirasauniversal.jpg


Kirasa-F Body Armour2 triple magazine pockets (front - holds 6 mags), 4 grenade pockets (lower back) & 1 big pocket (upper back) - weighs 4.5kg - AV 1
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6868/kirasaf.jpg


Kirasa-D Body Armour3 double magazine pockets (front - holds 6 mags), 4 grenade pockets (lower back) & 1 big pocket (upper back) - weighs 5kg - AV 1
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/981/kirasa.jpg


Armour Summary AV Weight Head Chest Abdomen
NATO Kevlar Helmet 1 0.5kg 1-4 N/A N/A
NATO Kevlar Body Armour 1 4.0kg N/A Yes Yes
Soviet Steel Helmet 1 1.0kg 1-3 N/A N/A
Soviet Kevlar Helmet 1 0.5kg 1-4 N/A N/A
Soviet 6B3T Body Armour 2 9.0kg N/A Yes 1-4
Soviet 6B5 Body Armour 2 10.0kg N/A Yes Yes
Soviet Kirasa Universal Body Armour 1 4.0kg N/A Yes 1-4
Soviet Kirasa-F Body Armour 1 4.5kg N/A Yes 1-4
Soviet Kirasa-D Body Armour 1 5.0kg N/A Yes Yes

[Mahatatain]

Hum - anyone know how to format the table at the bottom correctly?

[HorseSoldier]

I've always pictured any Soviet or WP veterans of the T2K eastern front liberally augmenting their issue stuff with any Chinese kit they could acquire that worked for them.

[ArmySGT.]

Armour Summary AV Weight Head Chest Abdomen

NATO Kevlar Helmet 10.5kg 1-4 N/A N/A
NATO Kevlar Body Armour 14.0kg N/A Yes Yes
Soviet Steel Helmet 11.0kg 1-3 N/A N/A
Soviet Kevlar Helmet 10.5kg 1-4 N/A N/A
Soviet 6B3T Body Armour 29.0kg N/A Yes 1-4
Soviet 6B5 Body Armour 210.0kg N/A Yes Yes
Soviet Kirasa Universal Body Armour 14.0kg N/A Yes 1-4
Soviet Kirasa-F Body Armour 14.5kg N/A Yes 1-4
Soviet Kirasa-D Body Armour 15.0kg N/A Yes Yes

The problem is in the forum software itself

[ArmySGT.]

Doing a little bit of looking around what AmySgt and TopBreak have here, and I think its reasonable for Soviet troops to have Y-strap gear and combine it with a chest rig or reversed lifevest. Discussion or comments?

Great color photos HERE (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4644258)

[ArmySGT.]

Russians could purchase French FELIN Infantry system.
http://defenceforumindia.com/global-defence/4766-russia-considers-buying-french-felin-infantry-combat.html

[B.T.]

I tried to picture some of my belongings.
You can see the older-style "Koppel" with one of the metal-loops fixed, I've mentioned earlier. Another lies near the belt and shows the opposite side.

The bayonet is an AK-bayonet of the NVA, web straps are missing.

The other knife is the ACK (=Advanced Combat Knife), IRL intended as the new fighting knife of the Bundeswehr, prior to German reunification. The bayonet-frog (?) of the ACK is intended to be looped on the Koppel, but it has bracelets, allowing the scabbard to be fastened to older US pistol belts with eyelets. The frog clamps to the scabbard and can be removed to join knife and scabbard. They then can be used as a wire-cutter.

The Stanag-mag is from an airsoft M4 and is added to compare the size of the other items, just as the BIC-lighter is.

[ArmySGT.]

@ B.T.

Would it help if you did searches for the items in their native Deutsch instead of the American or British names for such items?

Maybe you can atleast turn up a forum of re-enactors that can help you out.

[pmulcahy11b]

The bayonet-frog (?)

The English equivalent would be "lug."

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The English equivalent would be "lug."

Not trying to be picky but from what I remember the "frog" is the cloth part that is used to attach the scabbard to the belt. The word "lug" implies the attachment point for the bayonet onto the rifle.

[B.T.]

Not trying to be picky but from what I remember the "frog" is the cloth part that is used to attach the scabbard to the belt. The word "lug" implies the attachment point for the bayonet onto the rifle.

That's exactly what I've read. The bayonet frog can be made from leather or webbing, but I thought of the loop-thingie, that holds the scabbard on the webbing/belt. I always thought a "bayonet lug" was part of the rifle, where the bayonet is fixed :confused:

[pmulcahy11b]

Not trying to be picky but from what I remember the "frog" is the cloth part that is used to attach the scabbard to the belt. The word "lug" implies the attachment point for the bayonet onto the rifle.

I apologize; I've never heard the term "frog" used with a bayonet. The bayonets we had used a metal clip which was hinged at the scabbard.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I apologize; I've never heard the term "frog" used with a bayonet. The bayonets we had used a metal clip which was hinged at the scabbard.

Hey Paul, no apology necessary :)
The word "frog" seems to be peculiarly European. I used to think it was limited only to British and British-influenced armies (e.g. the Australian Army) but it appears to be a little more widespread.
So basically, this forum has again given me new information :D

[Legbreaker]

From dictionary .com
frog
noun
1. an ornamental fastening for the front of a coat, consisting of a button and a loop through which it passes.
2. a sheath suspended from a belt and supporting a scabbard.
Origin:
1710–20; perhaps < Portuguese froco < Latin floccus flock

[B.T.]

Hey Paul, no apology necessary :)
The word "frog" seems to be peculiarly European. I used to think it was limited only to British and British-influenced armies (e.g. the Australian Army) but it appears to be a little more widespread.
So basically, this forum has again given me new information :D

Learn a little every day :)

I fround the term in the book:
Wade Krawczyk: German Army Uniforms of World War II. In Colour Photographs; London 1995, Published by Windrow & Greene

I should have been suspicious: They say "coloured" in the title :D

Note for myself: If they have "colour" in the title, they use "British English".