Australia/New Zealand in the Twilight War

[Targan]

(Split from New Russian BMPs)

Australia has become a powerful military power but that is probably because I consider Australian to be really brave.
Well I'm not going to argue with that :). Goes equally for New Zealand troops too BTW. Maori troops in particular, they fight with ferocity similar to Gurkhas from what I have heard. There was a battalion of Maori troops that were sent on a one way deep penetration raid on Crete during WWII, absolute killing machines.

I expect that during the Twilight War Australia and New Zealand would become even more closely allied than they normally are, forming a sort of Pacific version of the European Union along with Papua New Guinea and various South Pacific nations.

[Mohoender]

Well I'm not going to argue with that :). Goes equally for New Zealand troops too BTW. Maori troops in particular, they fight with ferocity similar to Gurkhas from what I have heard. There was a battalion of Maori troops that were sent on a one way deep penetration raid on Crete during WWII, absolute killing machines.

I expect that during the Twilight War Australia and New Zealand would become even more closely allied than they normally are, forming a sort of Pacific version of the European Union along with Papua New Guinea and various South Pacific nations.

Actually in my game they have formed a union also including the Fiji islands and Tonga.:)

[jester]

Actually in my game they have formed a union also including the Fiji islands and Tonga.:)


I could see that happening, I ccould see them becoming the dominate force for some kind of union of Pacific Islands and maybe even some of the Islands in the Malay Peninsula, I am guessing Indonesia would have some kind of revolution with its thousands of islands breaking into semi autonomous groups taking one side or the other.

And here is another question;

What would Austrailia do in reguarding Korea and the North Invading with either the aid of Russia or China?

Or China making a move on Hong Kong?

[Targan]

And here is another question;

What would Austrailia do in reguarding Korea and the North Invading with either the aid of Russia or China?

Or China making a move on Hong Kong?
In the original Twilight timeline Australia would support South Korea, the US and the UK against any moves by China and or North Korea. We did in the Korean War (in which Australians fought with great bravery) and we would do it again.

Now or in the near future however the situation would be much more difficult for Australia because China is by far and away our biggest trading partner and our current Prime Minister speaks fluent (and I mean FLUENT) Mandarin and is a great friend of China's. But in the case of all out war we'd always side with the USA and its allies, and in any case Japan is Australia's second biggest trading partner and we know which side our bread is buttered on.

In the traditional Twilight timeline Australia is involved in its own nasty little war with Indonesia after Indonesia invades first Papua New Guinea and then northern Australia. IRL if the Indonesians invaded Australia I would do anything in my power to join the fight. Anything.

[copeab]

IRL if the Indonesians invaded Australia I would do anything in my power to join the fight. Anything.

Well, probably not wave an AK-47 over your head and scream "WOLVERINES!!!"

:)

[Targan]

Well, probably not wave an AK-47 over your head and scream "WOLVERINES!!!"
No, I'd wave a Steyr over my head and scream "WOMBATS!!!" Heh heh.:gewehr_gr

[jester]

LOL!!!! And the wombat is such a fierce creature!

It kinda reminds me of the spoof Delta Farce where they are moving out to get on the plane, the redneck asks the young tall strong looking soldier,

"Who ya with?"

The young strong soldier replies with pride,

"101st Sceamin EAGLES! What about you?"

The Redneck played by the cvharacter Larry the Cableguy replies,

"64th Georgia, the sleeping marmots."

The line was worth a chuckle!

And now to hijack since Wombats came up,

What about personal pets and mascots in the T2K world?

Somehow I can just picture some Aussies liberating a Kangaroo from a Zoo as they roam the battlefields of Europe.

[headquarters]

LOL!!!! And the wombat is such a fierce creature!

It kinda reminds me of the spoof Delta Farce where they are moving out to get on the plane, the redneck asks the young tall strong looking soldier,

"Who ya with?"

The young strong soldier replies with pride,

"101st Sceamin EAGLES! What about you?"

The Redneck played by the cvharacter Larry the Cableguy replies,

"64th Georgia, the sleeping marmots."

The line was worth a chuckle!

And now to hijack since Wombats came up,

What about personal pets and mascots in the T2K world?

Somehow I can just picture some Aussies liberating a Kangaroo from a Zoo as they roam the battlefields of Europe.

my party kept a deranged and chemically damaged cannibal in a steel cage for some time . For scientific reasons ..right..

Australia could do well if it wasnt hit badly by the exchange of misiles.It has a unique location ,a good deal of resources -including agricultural - and maybe together with New Zeeland could carry on to some extent as an organized country -although hardships and stern internal security measures probably would be needed.

As for Indonesia invading -it somehow seems that if the Imperial Japanese Forces couldnt do it -the Indonesians wouldnt get any closer than locking themselves in a stalemate in PNG -just like in the 1940s.

If anything ,I would guess that Indonesia would be invaded by Australia/New Zeeland/Pacific allies to secure oilfields and stabilize regions of strategic interests.Indonesia would probably submerge in a multitude of civil wars over religious,ethnic,political and commercial interests.

All imho -of course .

Targan -where is that write up on the region you said we could have before ?

[Mohoender]

Australia could do well if it wasnt hit badly by the exchange of misiles.It has a unique location ,a good deal of resources -including agricultural - and maybe together with New Zeeland could carry on to some extent as an organized country -although hardships and stern internal security measures probably would be needed.



I'm not that negative about internal security. All the Australian and Kiwis that I met were tough and nice people, proud of their country. The wild zone I put in Australia are more for regular neglect than from unrest. The government would not bother controlling all of the vast interior desert. Moreover, I can't imagine someone already living in a remote area move against the governement (what would be the point?). Aborigenes could get more authonomy and probably support the government (as for the Maoris).

Of course you might get unrest in some cities and from refugees (sorry for them but the Australian navy ends up sinking as much as they can after letting in several hundred of thousands). Most unrests will stop with the quick return of electricity. Some people might be upset when looking at their empty bank account but with no more international market, who truly cares? They wouldn't face the epidemic as well.

In my game, Papua-NG remain under their control and they help the Indonesian government retain control over Java and Sumatra. So much for Borneo and the smaller islands (I have the same idea than Jest). They were and remain involved in Korea but never sent troops to Europe. Some relations might also exist with the Thai but these will be limited. Boat people and pirates remain the most important threat

At some point during WWII these guys were virtually alone facing Japan (about 1 to 10). I never recall that they ever thought about surrender and they were able to come up with a working war industry in no time (at least one very nice tank that never entered productions, several interesting smaller vehicles plus impressive (CA-15 and Woomera bomber) and not so impressive aircrafts (CA-3 Wirraway & CA-12 Boomerang), but very good ones.

As I said, their stocks wouldn't be depleted and they would be capable of getting electricity back. Supply might pose problem but nothing that can't be overcome. In addition, for my part, they soon launch 2 aircraft carriers similar to the Chakri Naruebet (Thai) and retain an aircraft industry (Hornet and Harrier). As a result, they send some supply to the U.S. and NATO.

I would also love to have your opinion on their base at Woomera.

[Targan]

Yeah Australia has an arms industry, mostly to support the Australian Defence Forces. We manufacture our own rifles under licence, manufacture ammo in a variety of calibres, we have an advanced (although admittedly small) naval shipbuilding industry. We have our own oil and gas and huge coal reserves. We'd do okay I think.

There are a number of US intelligence bases in Australia. I don't really have an issue with it. Its not like there are huge numbers of US troops here and the US shares some of the intel it gathers through their bases here with us. I think as the decades go by the US trusts Australia more and more. At least they know we are reliable and won't back down from a fight.

[Mohoender]

Yeah Australia has an arms industry, mostly to support the Australian Defence Forces. We manufacture our own rifles under licence, manufacture ammo in a variety of calibres, we have an advanced (although admittedly small) naval shipbuilding industry. We have our own oil and gas and huge coal reserves. We'd do okay I think.

There are a number of US intelligence bases in Australia. I don't really have an issue with it. Its not like there are huge numbers of US troops here and the US shares some of the intel it gathers through their bases here with us. I think as the decades go by the US trusts Australia more and more. At least they know we are reliable and won't back down from a fight.

I agree about all that but my point about Woomera comes from old memory. I believe it is involved with space operations and it was involved in rocket testing. As a result, could it be use to limited space launch that could help restore some satellite network (over time of course)?

[Targan]

Oh right, the Woomera Rocket Range. Actually that was reactivated in the late 1990s to test a series of scramjet designs. Probably still in mothballs in the T2K timeline though.

[kcdusk]

my party kept a deranged and chemically damaged cannibal in a steel cage for some time . For scientific reasons ..right..


Bring out the gimp!

[headquarters]

Bring out the gimp!


yeah ..but they couldnt actually bring him out as he was a homocidal maniac 100% of the time except when drugged by horsetranqulizers or blacked out from lack of sleep/food or abundance of blows to the head..

I guess my group isnt strong on the ethic stuff or "heroes" in any classical sense of the word .

They are more like Al Swearengen and his sidekick Dan in Deadwood-only less thought through and more violent .

I often let them encounter some upright ,stand up kind of NPCs to remind them of the origins of the RPG as a genre -but these goodietwoshoes annoy the crap out of them within minutes ,and since they fight fair and try for good outcomes -end up dead in pretty shot order .Once I had a former Marine Sniper harass the party for hours over a few sessions where they had occupied a small village ,set themselves up as lords and thrown the children and some women in a cellar rigged to blow if the locals didnt comply ...The resistance naturally formed .And as the sniper attacks began to really test them they turned to using all available firepower at suspected snipernests -destroying much of their prize village ..Rest assured - most of them were eventually killed when the angry villagers toppled the "regime" in one night of bloody sneak attacks..hhehehe

good times..

[Targan]

Just watching a documentary about Robert Menzies, Australian Prime Minister having gone to England during WWII where he tried as hard as he could to talks sense into Winston Churchill and watching as plan after plan of Churchill's fell apart, despite Menzies having told him they would. Particularly the disasters in North Africa early on, in Greece and then the fall of Singapore. So very often Australian and New Zealand troops have been sent to the other side of the earth and used as cannon fodder. What a stupid waste. ANZACs make REALLY good troops. Used well we can really make a difference. I accept that casualties, sometimes heavy casualties, happen in wars and Australians know that as well as anybody. But the damned British threw away tens of thousands of Australian and New Zealand lives during WWII pretty much for bugger all.

Churchill didn't want to antagonise the Japanese before they were at war with Britain and wasn't willing to send sufficient naval assetts or air cover to the Pacific so there was no way Singapore was going to hold out once the Japanese started fighting the Allies. You know how many soldiers were captured by the Japanese in Singapore? About 130,000 for cryin' out loud, 15,000 of them Australians. Most of those 15,000 Australians were subsequently killed by the Japanese or worked to death by them in captivity. It makes me want to scream with frustration because we Australians will fight to the death if required and we are courageous in battle. I'd rather die than surrender, personally. Just make it quick.

[headquarters]

Just watching a documentary about Robert Menzies, Australian Prime Minister having gone to England during WWII where he tried as hard as he could to talks sense into Winston Churchill and watching as plan after plan of Churchill's fell apart, despite Menzies having told him they would. Particularly the disasters in North Africa early on, in Greece and then the fall of Singapore. So very often Australian and New Zealand troops have been sent to the other side of the earth and used as cannon fodder. What a stupid waste. ANZACs make REALLY good troops. Used well we can really make a difference. I accept that casualties, sometimes heavy casualties, happen in wars and Australians know that as well as anybody. But the damned British threw away tens of thousands of Australian and New Zealand lives during WWII pretty much for bugger all.

Churchill didn't want to antagonise the Japanese before they were at war with Britain and wasn't willing to send sufficient naval assetts or air cover to the Pacific so there was no way Singapore was going to hold out once the Japanese started fighting the Allies. You know how many soldiers were captured by the Japanese in Singapore? About 130,000 for cryin' out loud, 15,000 of them Australians. Most of those 15,000 Australians were subsequently killed by the Japanese or worked to death by them in captivity. It makes me want to scream with frustration because we Australians will fight to the death if required and we are courageous in battle. I'd rather die than surrender, personally. Just make it quick.


talked to a canadian feller once who claimed that the Canadians saw Montgomery and several other top brass as war criminals for sacrificing tens of thousands of Canadian troops in hare brained schemes.

[jester]

my party kept a deranged and chemically damaged cannibal in a steel cage for some time . For scientific reasons ..right..




That kind of reminds me of 28 Days Later, where the rogue soldiers had "Billy" was it tied up out back. Interesting mascot, just wonder about feeding time,

"Joe, you get to feed Billy tonight,"

Joe, "Feed im what?"

Evil leader smiles,

As his former comrades grab hold of him and drag him off kicking and screaming.

[chico20854]

In the original Twilight timeline Australia would support South Korea, the US and the UK against any moves by China and or North Korea. We did in the Korean War (in which Australians fought with great bravery) and we would do it again.

...

In the traditional Twilight timeline Australia is involved in its own nasty little war with Indonesia after Indonesia invades first Papua New Guinea and then northern Australia. IRL if the Indonesians invaded Australia I would do anything in my power to join the fight. Anything.

The DC group is going on the assumption that Australia is more or less intact, but large areas are out of communication with the central government. The Indonesian invasion fell apart from a combination of really fierce resistance, being totally outclassed, huge distances of really harsh terrain between their landing beaches and any point of strategic importance, and Indonesia falling apart as the nuclear exchange went on and the world gradually fell apart - no resupply.

Australia sent a mech brigade to CENTCOM, and an ANZAC brigade to Korea. They also sent SAS troops on the Cam Ranh raid written up on my website.

Darwin is under the "guidance" of its local military commander and cut off from the rest of the country. This is based on IRL the railroad to Darwin just being completed in the last 5 years or so.

In late 2000, the US, Australia and New Zealand are still firm allies.

The rest will come out in the Survivors Guide to the USA! (someday, hopefully in 2009!)

[spielmeister]

Well, in our Gurps t2015 homebrew universe, we had an expatriate unit of Australians operating the southern luzon area. The backstory was that they were originally destined for the mideast but they had to divert suddenly to luzon when all the nukes started flying. By the game's start, they managed to set up a well-run cantonment in the camarines sur area of southern luzon and got some geothermal power plants up and running again, laying the basis for restarting civilization in that part of the world again. the area is near the mayon volcano so there's a lot of geotherm being tapped.

I never got to run it but one of our planned scenarios were the Aussies pushing north to link up with the last remnants of the GRP and the US contingent near Manila to make a stand against the Chinese mechanized offensive fueled by a trickle of oil from the restarted spratleys rigs. As I recall the PCs were supposed to be part of a unit charged to clear the main arterial highway through southern manila.

maybe one day i'll get it going again. ;)

[headquarters]

That kind of reminds me of 28 Days Later, where the rogue soldiers had "Billy" was it tied up out back. Interesting mascot, just wonder about feeding time,

"Joe, you get to feed Billy tonight,"

Joe, "Feed im what?"

Evil leader smiles,

As his former comrades grab hold of him and drag him off kicking and screaming.
must remember that one .

or ofcourse - have some one forget to lock up properly hahaha...

[Targan]

The DC group is going on the assumption that Australia is more or less intact, but large areas are out of communication with the central government...

...In late 2000, the US, Australia and New Zealand are still firm allies.

The rest will come out in the Survivors Guide to the USA! (someday, hopefully in 2009!)
I like everything written in that post. It sounds quite realistic. I have no doubt that you guys in the DC Working Group know your s**t. I look forward to reading your work.

[chico20854]

(copied from Recovery Plan thread)

Chico, I realise that given the vast scope of the work you guys have been doing, your thoughts on Australia would necessarily take up a very small portion. When you mentioned in your last post that Darwin was a link in the air corridor from CENTCOM's AO back to the CONUS it immediately got me thinking. I don't think that most of the rest of the world really understand the truly vast amounts of natural resources that Australia possesses.

On a global scale Australia is not a major oil producer but we do produce oil in not inconsiderable amounts and have large reserves (mostly off the NW and northern coasts and especially between Australia and East Timor) which remain largely untapped. But even more significantly Australia has truly enormous reserves of natural gas and coal (and I mean seriously enormous) and even after the Twilight War some ability to tap them.

And while Australia may not currently produce all that much high tech gear it has more to do with commercial realities pre-war than ability. Australia is a first world, high tech nation. If Australia's manufacturing infrastructure remained largely intact after the Twilight War it would (in my opinion) be an invaluable partner for the huge task of rebuilding the power of the USA. If Darwin was a major staging point for US air and sea assets to and from the US and the Middle East I'm sure it would receive US land, air and sea military assets to enhance its security and or provide assistance to the Australian Defence Force to do its job better.

Good point Targan! I have a feeling that many people are unaware that much of the goods produced in China are made from Australian raw materials in factories powered by Australian coal!

On the oil production, I'd have to check how much production was in 1996 vs now. I know that with the independence of East Timor offshore oil exploration has really taken off and is continuing to do so (At the office I'm currently working on relocating a deep-water oil rig from the Gulf of Mexico to Australian waters). For T2k it's really a question of what was going on in 1996 and would the resources be available during the war to continue at the RL rate. For the recovery plan, the exploration and extraction resources are very limited and it makes sense to at least initially concentrate them where there is existing military forces, infrastructure (partially damaged but repairable) and where the oil is easiest to get to (Middle Eastern crude is much cheaper to extract than offshore deepwater). On a longer term, developing oil production outside the Persian Gulf is absolutely essential, as the political stability in the region is not there and the transportation a real hassle, especially with limited ability to repair existing ships and produce new ones.

As for Australia helping the US, we'd love it. The big issue we are facing, however, with all international trade, is that the U.S. really doesn't have anything to trade with less damaged nations other than a trickle of oil from CENTCOM (and each drop of oil to a trading partner slows recovery of the US), military force (which will decline as equipment wears out) and scrap steel (a great deal of which is irradiated). Australians are great, generous people, but you have a (reasonable) expectation to be paid, and the U.S. really has nothing to pay with. (Recovery of 80 tons of gold from a pond in NYC might make a difference, but even that has to be judged carefully).

The security situation for Australia seems pretty good, IMHO limiting the demand for US security assistance. The Indo invasion (if any) has withered out by 2000, the long-range aircraft and missiles of the world have either flown or are out of fuel or touch with HQ and the US and France operate the only remaining navies. Piracy (to a certain extent on a scale comparable to what is occurring off Somalia right now, but with sails instead of diesel-powered boats) is endemic worldwide, so US Navy escorts of convoys and active and aggressive patrolling of offshore oil fields would be helpful (given the size of the RAN). Of course, providing the ADF with the occasional tanker full of JP-8 and diesel would certainly help!

[Brother in Arms]

This is a good thread everyone!

By the way Targan I bet you would actually be holding and SLR L1A1 over your head and yelling "WOMBATS!"

They probably have tons of them still locked up in storage somewhere.

Brother in Arms

[Graebarde]

ANZACs make REALLY good troops. Used well we can really make a difference. I accept that casualties, sometimes heavy casualties, happen in wars and Australians know that as well as anybody. But the damned British threw away tens of thousands of Australian and New Zealand lives during WWII pretty much for bugger all.



AND they did the same in WWI. I've had the opportunity to interact with the boys from down under on occassion in my long ago military career. They were guys you wanted to cover your back.

[ChalkLine]

talked to a canadian feller once who claimed that the Canadians saw Montgomery and several other top brass as war criminals for sacrificing tens of thousands of Canadian troops in hare brained schemes.

That was actually Mountbatten, not Montgomery. Most Commonwealth troops loved Monty because he avoided attritional battles and concentrated on tactical manoeuvre.
Mountbatten sacrificed a vast amount of Canadians and British in the lunatic Dieppe Raid that had no objectives and no possibility of a good outcome. He was actually called 'a murderer of hundreds of my countrymen' by a senior Canadian general. He was eventually murdered by the IRA along with his family in the 70s. The whole project was compromised before its launch, but Mountbatten needed an operation to justify his position.
As an aside, Monty spent a lot of his youth in Hobart, where I live. He was very distant to his immediate family but had close contacts with his Australian friends.

[ChalkLine]

I've got an excuse for Australian and New Zealand troops in Europe on my website (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Underworld/7031/T2K-Art.html), I'll repost it here;

ANZaSPN
Australian, New Zealand and South Pacific Nations UN Force
A stranded UN composite unit in Germany, suitable for Southern Pacific characters.

Deteriorating world conditions due to the general European engagement made it very difficult for the various Australasian UN contingents to continue their missions. Supply routes often passed through war zones and disengagement agreements were increasingly ignored as a slide to world war accelerated. Urgent meetings with UN officials and various Australasian states took place 1996 in effect pleading for troops to stay on the ground as US forces, for so long shouldering the lions share of peacekeeping, were increasingly recalled for NATO duties.
The situation was only made worse when Turkey invaded Cypress in 1997, all Australasian UN troops were pulled out and sent to a temporary facility at Heidelberg, Germany. Ostensibly, this move was only until the official approval could be sought through worsening global communications from France, until then unengaged and still largely intact, for a transfer across the border and out of Europe using a French port as air transport was no longer a possibility. Living on what was in fact American largesse in a hard pressed country, all of the “Australian, New Zealand and Southern Pacific Nations” troops felt a deep need to do something more than just sit in a camp and use up rations, after repeated requests from the various commanders in the base cautious UN approval was given to begin rear area security duties, at the same time Australasian and South Pacific citizens trapped in Europe were directed to the Heidelberg camp for eventual evacuation home.
Many troops were struggling to come to terms with their new role when the French finally settled the question of using French ports by invading the Ruhr valley and in the process encountered the UN ANZaSPN enclave. At first French and UN troops kept a cautious distance, but a nasty incident between a Tongan patrol and a French unit soon had the French troops surging forward as the UN troops fell back as fast as they could. There was particular bitter fighting at Eberbach as rearguard troops sought to slow the French juggernaut. Many UN troops will never forgive the French for what they see as a betrayal, up until a week before the French invasion most UN troops still thought they’d be evacuated through Bordeaux.
During the retreat down highway 50, many of the UN peacekeepers had their first experience of large unit action and unfortunately the casualty figures reflected this. As main force NATO units were diverted from the front to deal with seemingly unstoppable onslaught, ANZaSPN troops were sent to cantonment at Augsberg. Over the next two years the 24th Panzergrenadiers at nearby Nurnburg adopted the strange little UN unit and due to the complete breakdown of international communication in 1999, incorporated them into the 1 German Corps command structure.

Units at the ANZaSPN enclave:

Australia.
UNTSO, from Syria, Lebanon and Israel.
12 unarmed observers.
ONUC, from the Congo:
An army medical team, tropical-medicine doctor, surgeon and medical orderly.
UNFICYP, from Cypress.
20 Federal Police
UNPROFOR, from Herzogovenia,
A Brigadier, elements of 1st of the 15th New South Wales Lancers, 10th Light Horse, the Royal Australia Regiment, the Royal Victorian Regiment, Special Air Services and various support services (Signals etc.)
UNSCOM, from Iraq,
12 Chemical/Biological warfare experts, 9 officers of the Australian Intelligence Corps.
UNDP, from Mozambique,
2 Deminers from the Royal Australian Engineers.
MFO, from Israel and Egypt,
A Major-General, 27 troops from various units.

In addition, approximately 2500 Australian nationals caught holidaying, involved in overseas work or consular staff and security are incorporated into the Enclave, many have joined the unit and provide a pool of manpower available to the Enclave command structure.

Wow, that's about eight years old. I have to get in there and fix up the appalling grammar.

[Marc]

Good job Chalkline. Again, I've discovered and interesting background to give the old timeline a new point of view.

[chico20854]

That's some good stuff, Chalkline!

I'll revise the Recovery Plan's Operation Omega section to give the survivors of this contingent a ride back to CENTCOM, where they can join the Australian mech brigade operating there. I'll also have the ANZAC Bde in Korea evac'd to Australia at the same time as 8th Army pulls out. Do you have a preferred port/ports of debarkation for them?

[chico20854]

On the oil production, I'd have to check how much production was in 1996 vs now. I know that with the independence of East Timor offshore oil exploration has really taken off and is continuing to do so (At the office I'm currently working on relocating a deep-water oil rig from the Gulf of Mexico to Australian waters). For T2k it's really a question of what was going on in 1996 and would the resources be available during the war to continue at the RL rate.

Ok, I found a 2000 Australian government report on oil and gas. Its at http://www.ga.gov.au/image_cache/GA6117.pdf It seems to have some good stuff in it. One thing I notice - wells that produce 2,000 barrels a day are "plugged and abandoned." Not in t2k!!!!

[Targan]

Ok, I found a 2000 Australian government report on oil and gas. Its at http://www.ga.gov.au/image_cache/GA6117.pdf It seems to have some good stuff in it. One thing I notice - wells that produce 2,000 barrels a day are "plugged and abandoned." Not in t2k!!!!
Yeah, that was part of what I was trying to get across in my earlier posts on Australia's natural resources - maybe not in population but certainly in resource reserves Australia really is an awakening giant. Another point is uranium, Australia has absolutely heaps of it! The uranium used in the first Trinity nuclear test in the USA during WWII was mined at the location of the current Roxby Downs uranium mine in South Australia.

[headquarters]

That was actually Mountbatten, not Montgomery. Most Commonwealth troops loved Monty because he avoided attritional battles and concentrated on tactical manoeuvre.
Mountbatten sacrificed a vast amount of Canadians and British in the lunatic Dieppe Raid that had no objectives and no possibility of a good outcome. He was actually called 'a murderer of hundreds of my countrymen' by a senior Canadian general. He was eventually murdered by the IRA along with his family in the 70s. The whole project was compromised before its launch, but Mountbatten needed an operation to justify his position.
As an aside, Monty spent a lot of his youth in Hobart, where I live. He was very distant to his immediate family but had close contacts with his Australian friends.

get the brass mixed up sometimes

[ChalkLine]

get the brass mixed up sometimes

No worries mate, I probably only know because I studied that part of the war in uni. Monty actually wanted the operation cancelled.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Hey a bit OT, but,

Assuming that the New Zealand F-16 buy went through, what year would they have had them?

In my T2k world, I am going to assume that with the never ending Cold War and the hostilities between PRC/USSR, the RNZAF has them around 97 before the nukes start flying.

[Targan]

Also a bit OT but it is my understanding that IRL when the RNZAF got rid of the last of its combat aircraft many RNZAF fighter pilots joined the RAF and the RAAF.

[chico20854]

Hey a bit OT, but,

Assuming that the New Zealand F-16 buy went through, what year would they have had them?

In my T2k world, I am going to assume that with the never ending Cold War and the hostilities between PRC/USSR, the RNZAF has them around 97 before the nukes start flying.

According to "Edging into Isolation" in Flight International, March 1989 and "Skyhawk Soars Again" in the December 1988 edition of the same magazine (available at http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1988/1988%20-%203548.html) an A-4 scheme fitting new avionics allowed the RNZAF to achieve maritime strike and CAS capability equal to a F-16 at one-sixth of the cost. Given that those upgrades were supposed to finish up in the early 90s and the subsequent aircraft purchases talked about in 1989 were trainers, tankers, transports and avionics upgrades for the P-3 fleet, I think a F-16 buy was off the table until the war in China broke out, by which time it was too late - the Chinese ordered all the F-16s Fort Worth could crank out, and the USAF started impounding most of the production once the slaughter of fighter aircraft began over the Oder.

[boogiedowndonovan]

According to "Edging into Isolation" in Flight International, March 1989 and "Skyhawk Soars Again" in the December 1988 edition of the same magazine (available at http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1988/1988%20-%203548.html) an A-4 scheme fitting new avionics allowed the RNZAF to achieve maritime strike and CAS capability equal to a F-16 at one-sixth of the cost. Given that those upgrades were supposed to finish up in the early 90s and the subsequent aircraft purchases talked about in 1989 were trainers, tankers, transports and avionics upgrades for the P-3 fleet, I think a F-16 buy was off the table until the war in China broke out, by which time it was too late - the Chinese ordered all the F-16s Fort Worth could crank out, and the USAF started impounding most of the production once the slaughter of fighter aircraft began over the Oder.


Interesting stuff, I'm having a problem opening that article at work but I'll check it out later.

This is way OT and probably should be another thread, but would the USA be selling top of the line F-16's to the PRC, even if it is engaged in open warfare with the Soviet Union?

Again, I'm going to sound like some old codger griping about the good ole' days, but in one of the old threads, someone (Matt Wiser) proposed that F-4s and A-7s from AMARC would be refurbished and sold to the PRC. Someone even posted the AMARC inventory!

[Legbreaker]

As for Indonesia invading -it somehow seems that if the Imperial Japanese Forces couldn't do it -the Indonesians wouldn't get any closer than locking themselves in a stalemate in PNG -just like in the 1940s.

Japan in 1942 were overextended in a BIG way with troops in Korea, China, and just about everywhere south and east of there. Also there are indications they never intended to step one foot on Australian mainland soil. They were really only after Papua New Guinea to secure their southern border (there just isn't much they could use in the northern part of Australia, and no way they could have held it anyway).

Indonesia in T2K on the other hand were not spread halfway across the world trying to hold onto various conquests and weren't at war with numerous other countries. Their entire might could be focused squarely on Australia and the space it represented for it's overcrowded islands. Unlike Japan 60 years earlier, Australia does have something Indonesia needs.

Indonesia also has little need to bog themselves down in the mountainous PNG, not when with just a little more effort they could have the flat terrain of northern Australlia.

Now as for a brigade to Centcom, that's extremely unlikely. Australia only has two Divisions TOTAL, with the majority of that strength in the form of reservists. With a Brigade in Korea (which I'm working on an OOB for now) that doesn't leave much at home to resist the Indonesians.

With such minimal strength, you can also rule out completely an offensive action into Indonesia. That country has a comparatively MASSIVE military, and even if not up to the same standard, they'd swamp the Australians with numbers.

[Targan]

One bonus for the ADF is as soon as hostilities with Indonesia heated up they would have a huge influx of people wanting to join the Army, RAN and RAAF. Probably wouldn't need to even consider conscription for the first year or two.

[Legbreaker]

There'd be huge demand for PR/Propaganda people too....

[headquarters]

I agree that Indonesia have something to win by taking Australia in a T2K scenario. But isnt the question if they could do so in a T2K setting?

Indonesia is a diverse country with internal strife and difficult logistics seeing as everything must go by ship. They would face problems on teh same scale that the Imperial Japanese army did imho. The Japanese in 1942 were a mighty opponent. They had over 50 years of indoctrination in their culture, a massive militaryindustrial complex and something like 10 000 000 people under arms all told. The real reason for the nuclear bombings in 1945 were that the US high command rightly concluded that a conventional attack on mainland Japan would be far more risky operation than Operation Overlord, and that the war would drag on for several years before victory was ensured.

We do not know if the Indonesians can be assessed in the same way- undoubtedly fierce people but probably not along the same lines as the 1942 Japanese population.

They Indonesians would be fighting in their own rear against insurgents and separatists of various creeds and ethnicities, as well as trying to project a force large enough to capture a continent, to your shores ,all the while their economy is in a shamble sdue to the breakdown of the global trade economy.

Admittedly the advent of the airmobile infantry would greatly ease their capture of PNG and I guess if the USN isnt available and the Royal Navy is elsewhere too, most minor Island states would fare ill against an attack from whatever invasion force the Indonesians would send.

But the sheer timeframe involved in capturing Northern Australia if it was defended by delaying actions would probably give the you the possibility to mobilize an army of conscripts and rudimentarily arm them to start the reconquista. A possibility for the Indonesians could be a complex operation involving a 5th column,surprise attacks and WMDs. But such a plan has numerous pitfalls, and even if the Indons could get nukes, its doubtful that they could ship enough troops into Australia in a timeframe that would deny you guys the opportunity to mobilize and start driving them out.

Australia is like Russia, only with heat and crocs instead of snow and wolves.

How many Owen guns can be produced in Queensland in a month if all pitch in ?

:D

Japan in 1942 were overextended in a BIG way with troops in Korea, China, and just about everywhere south and east of there. Also there are indications they never intended to step one foot on Australian mainland soil. They were really only after Papua New Guinea to secure their southern border (there just isn't much they could use in the northern part of Australia, and no way they could have held it anyway).

Indonesia in T2K on the other hand were not spread halfway across the world trying to hold onto various conquests and weren't at war with numerous other countries. Their entire might could be focused squarely on Australia and the space it represented for it's overcrowded islands. Unlike Japan 60 years earlier, Australia does have something Indonesia needs.

Indonesia also has little need to bog themselves down in the mountainous PNG, not when with just a little more effort they could have the flat terrain of northern Australlia.

Now as for a brigade to Centcom, that's extremely unlikely. Australia only has two Divisions TOTAL, with the majority of that strength in the form of reservists. With a Brigade in Korea (which I'm working on an OOB for now) that doesn't leave much at home to resist the Indonesians.

With such minimal strength, you can also rule out completely an offensive action into Indonesia. That country has a comparatively MASSIVE military, and even if not up to the same standard, they'd swamp the Australians with numbers.

[Legbreaker]

Why do you think Indonesia would got for PNG? There's no logic to it that I can see. The terrain is just too rough for the effort to be worthwhile.

I agree that Indonesia would be mad to invade in it's RL situation, but if it could have temporarily quelled dissent, perhaps with offers of land for the crowded masses, and organised just their normal standing army, hell, even just a fraction of it, they could have captured, and held (at least to begin with) a sizable area. A totally untenable position in the long term, but if the aim is nothing more than to dump a few million less desirable ethnic minorities....

Indonesia has no hope of defeating Australia, but they could hold some of it provided their logistics were sorted out.

My belief is that Australia won the war, perhaps by throwing the Indonesian military back into the sea, but I can also see a lot of "settlers" showing up, trying to survive for a while before throwing themselves on the mercy of the Australians. With the virtual destruction of mass transport capacity, Australia would have no choice but to absorb them rather than send them back.

Mind you, I'm just throwing ideas out there...

It's worth noting that in the 80's and 90's the Australian military were training to fight the mythical enemy invaders the "Kamarians" who's home country, "Kamaria" was located roughly in the same location as Indonesia...
Yes, there actually were plans to deal with just such a situation.
http://www.4rarassociationsaustralia.com/irc.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/defence-exercises-focus-on-sea-lanes/story-e6frg8yo-1111115959477
http://www.securitychallenges.org.au/ArticlePDFs/vol3no4DibbandBrabinSmith.pdf

A decade it two earlier and the mythical enemy was Musoria, which we were told was equipped and organised as well as located in the same general area as the USSR.

[headquarters]

I was thinkig they would want it just to deny its use to Australia.

I agree that the invasion might be pulled of as you describe ( and I was speaking T2K and not RL in my post).

Just airing ideas me as well.

Well - if anyone could do it it would be the Indonesians I guess.

As for contingency plans - a friend of mine who had a clerk job at military intelligence swears he saw plans for repelling an attack from "the west" rather than "the east" in a pile of older docs. Meaning that invasion from Britain and the US wasnt entirely ruled out - at least not theoretically :)

About Kamarians - we have them to here. Only we call them Havland ( literally Ocean Land) and they are a sneaky bunch of devious and tenacious
troops from the politically unstable nation of Havland. Every ex we have their special forces try to influence our national decision making by sabotaging our infrastructure and oil and gas facilities. Everytime I tell the brass that next ex we surely must hit back and train for the massive amphibious operation th epunitive expedition to Havland will entail? I mean how many times shall we let tham conduct raids onto our territory before we go for regime change there?

..:D

I never seem to get a full understanding from them on the joke.. I guess after the fall of Musoria we are all wondering what next out on the periphery of the western world..

Why do you think Indonesia would got for PNG? There's no logic to it that I can see. The terrain is just too rough for the effort to be worthwhile.

I agree that Indonesia would be mad to invade in it's RL situation, but if it could have temporarily quelled dissent, perhaps with offers of land for the crowded masses, and organised just their normal standing army, hell, even just a fraction of it, they could have captured, and held (at least to begin with) a sizable area. A totally untenable position in the long term, but if the aim is nothing more than to dump a few million less desirable ethnic minorities....

Indonesia has no hope of defeating Australia, but they could hold some of it provided their logistics were sorted out.

My belief is that Australia won the war, perhaps by throwing the Indonesian military back into the sea, but I can also see a lot of "settlers" showing up, trying to survive for a while before throwing themselves on the mercy of the Australians. With the virtual destruction of mass transport capacity, Australia would have no choice but to absorb them rather than send them back.

Mind you, I'm just throwing ideas out there...

It's worth noting that in the 80's and 90's the Australian military were training to fight the mythical enemy invaders the "Kamarians" who's home country, "Kamaria" was located roughly in the same location as Indonesia...
Yes, there actually were plans to deal with just such a situation.
http://www.4rarassociationsaustralia.com/irc.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/defence-exercises-focus-on-sea-lanes/story-e6frg8yo-1111115959477
http://www.securitychallenges.org.au/ArticlePDFs/vol3no4DibbandBrabinSmith.pdf

A decade it two earlier and the mythical enemy was Musoria, which we were told was equipped and organised as well as located in the same general area as the USSR.

[Sanjuro]

the damned British threw away tens of thousands of Australian and New Zealand lives during WWII
AND they did the same in WWI.
Australia and New Zealand had the highest casualty rates of all the combatant nations in WW1, and many Ozmates have taken this to be because the British High Command considered ANZAC troops particularly expendable. However, when the casualty rates per unit are examined, they are similar to British losses.
The reason for this was the unique nature of the ANZAC contribution- all teeth and no tail. The ANZACs relied entirely on British logistical, engineering, administrative and medical support, all of which were manpower-intensive; had the Australian and NZ governments insisted on a proportion of their troops being used for these functions, ANZAC casualties would have been similar overall to British ones.
This is not to say that British generals cared about ANZAC troops- just that their callous acceptance of losses, and contempt for the lives of their troops, did not differentiate between nationalities.

[HorseSoldier]

The Indonesian invasion of Australia trope seems to be a very salient/significant one in Australian culture -- if I'm not mistaken (and apologies to our Australian members if I am) it gets consideration not only in popular fiction but at least somewhat legitimate political debate concerning the Australian military's capabilities, etc.

Personally, though, I see the regional T2K scenario being one where Indonesia fragments/implodes under the weight of global commerce collapsing and whatever third tier nuclear strikes they caught to take useful facilities off the game board.

Australia I can see getting rocked pretty hard by Soviet megatonnage -- it's solidly enough in the western camp that I could even see the zombies in the Kremlin authorizing a nuke boat to make a run down out from under the polar ice to be able to hit Australia with ordnance if nothing else will reach (I seem to recall a thread about Australia on one board or another where someone looked at the published stats for Soviet ICBMs and wasn't quite sure how you even hit Australia from missile fields in northeastern Europe and Siberia -- not sure how accurate that assessment is). Anyway, by "rocked pretty hard" I mean a few warheads set aside for non-petroleum targets of value (probably RAN/RAAF bases).

So the overall situation I see is less one where Indonesia ends up at war with Australia, and certainly no invasion, and more one where Australia's capabilities are seriously eroded and their northwestern frontier is a maritime free fire zone of Indonesian civil war factions, warlords, pirates, and refugees (lots and lots of those). I don't see Australian troops fighting to defend Australian soil, more fighting on below-shoestring-budget conditions to secure/stabilize key terrain/facilities/points in that morass and ensure freedom of navigation for the remnants of shipping. Half cordon-sanitaire and half-hold things worth holding, with the added stressor of the maritime LOCs mission. How well all that goes? Lots of room there for debate -- also lots of room there for gaming opportunity. The ultra-economy of force mission could yield lots of calls for 2000 era equivalents of the AATTV hooking up with some statelet or faction that Australia wants to support, as well as small unit commando-ing and raiding of point targets/smaller marauder and pirate groups/etc.

[Legbreaker]

That discussion was on here a while back and I think the result was there is only a handful of viable targets - Newcastle/Sydney/Woolongong, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth and perhaps Brisbane and Darwin. There really isn't anything else that warrants a nuke (even our national capital Canberra given that besides Politicians, there's nothing much there but sheep).

As for British/Australian troop differences in WWI, I recall just one of many incidents where a Section (9 men) of Australian Engineers assaulted and captured a German position that an entire British Battalion could not for days...
Speed, aggression and the willingness to get on with the job were the key to success in this instance (which was in an infantry training manual on tactics).
Note also the Australians were unsupported by fire or artillery at the time and captured over 30 prisoners.

This isn't to say the British didn't have similar examples amongst their ranks though.

[Sanjuro]

Legbreaker, I have nothing but admiration for the ANZAC contribution in both world wars; in WW1 especially though, the two countries' overall losses would have been lower if they had had a few more filing clerks...

[Legbreaker]

Perhaps so, but I can't imagine ANY Australian at the time being happy with a position in the rear.
Also, I don't believe the British leadership were all that interested in Australia (or any colony for that matter) providing their own support structures. Even the upper levels of command were held by British officers, at least in the earlier part of the war before strong demands were made for Australian leadership.