OT: Tank Design Game

[Webstral]

Does anybody know of a game in which the player can design his own tanks?

[LBraden]

I do not know of a full on "Tank designer" per-say, but

Warzone 2100 had it where you took elements and put them together, that was then copied for the Earth 21XX games.

Spore has a quazi-design system for vehicles and spaceships, but that is kinda moot

Sorry I cannot help much, but if ya find one, post it here

[copeab]

Does anybody know of a game in which the player can design his own tanks?

Car Wars had a tank supplement about 20 years ago.

BattleTech included (at some point) tank design, but they were deliberately made inferior to 'mechs.

The Striker rules for Classic Traveller included ground vehicle design and combat for the tabletop. Incarnations of this showed up in later editions, but weren't quite as wargame directed.

[Targan]

Fire, Fusion and Steel allows you to design virtually any kind of vehicle, in a wide range of tech levels. And the results are easily converted to T2K or any other GDW game.

[Legbreaker]

BattleTech included (at some point) tank design, but they were deliberately made inferior to 'mechs.

Not if you run them with a fusion plant rather than ICE. :D
Made a couple of really nasty little hovercraft that moved so damn fast the mechs didn't have a chance to hit 'em.

[pmulcahy11b]

Car Wars had a tank supplement about 20 years ago. And I missed it, didn't hear about it for years, and I've been looking for it ever since!

[copeab]

And I missed it, didn't hear about it for years, and I've been looking for it ever since!

There was also an extremely unofficial Car Wars tank design article in Dragon magazine a few years before that.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Hands down absolutely positively the best vehicle design system - particularly for AFVs - is Dream Pod 9's Silhouette System.

First you start off with a desired size, and speed, and desired range.

Speed is very easy to do - Silhouette's hexes are 50m. Size is usually figured last; adding weapons and various capabilities increases the size and if you want a smaller frame you pay for it on the back end when you're figuring everything up.

Range is a perk that's added up later during configuration.

The coolest part is armor because its based on real-world systems so you can model anything from an Imperial German A7v tank to an M1A2 TUSK (and beyond). What you do is you take the square root of the vehicle's frontal armor thickness (or equivalent) millimeters. That's your base armor rating.

So in the case of the Abrams if we assume about 650mm of RHA equivalence then the square is 25.

Here's the significance of that: Every weapon in the game has a base Damage Multiplier. Every point of success over the target number needed is multiplied by that number. The total is then compared to the base armor of the vehicle. If the total damage is equal to or less than the base armor of the vehicle, no damage is done. If the total is greater than 1x the base armor but less than 2x, a LIGHT hit is done, and the vehicle's base armor is reduced by 1 and the Light Damage table is consulted. If the total damage done is 2x the base armor rating, but less than 3x, the Heavy Damage table is consulted (where all kinds of horrible things can happen), and the vehicle's base armor is reduced by 2. If the damage result is more than 3x the base armor rating then it's Overkilled and the vehicle is destroyed.

Here's an example...let's take a T72, which per the rulebook (they use the '72 as an example in the book even though the game is sci-fi). They say the BAR is 15...so it's armor ratings are 15/30/45

A TOW is fired from an ambush position at the T72. The gunner firing the TOW has a good gunnery rating, so he rolls 2 dice. The '72 isn't sporting reactive armor for our example. The Difficulty needed to hit is, after all modifiers (range, movement) a 4. The TOW gunner rolls 2 dice, and because he's average in his stats, adds no further modifiers. He rolls a five and a six. As the six is the higher die, he uses it as his "success" die. The 6 is two points higher (a margin of success) than the target of 4, so it's a hit!

The TOW is a Heavy Anti-Tank Missile, which has a Damage Multiplier of x20. The margin of success success of +2 is multiplied by this for a total of 40. Ouch! The T72 takes a terrific wallop.

The 40 points is greater than 2x the base armor rating of the target, but (only just!) less than 3x. We roll 1d6 and get 4: Structural Damage, check the Heavy chart, and see that the damage done is -2 to Movement (all movement - acceleration, turning, etc.)

So our now very hurt T72 has a Base Armor rating of 13 and is going to be pretty slow to move from here on out...

Sorry, I hope I didn't oversell that, and the system is a LOT more elegant than I'm making it out to be.

[Panther Al]

DP9's system is fantastic. I've used it many a time for quite a few games. I highly recommend it to anyone who is looking for a quick, fun, and accurate rule system that covers both tactical and role play in the same format.

[Tegyrius]

And I missed it, didn't hear about it for years, and I've been looking for it ever since!

Only $85 at Noble Knight (http://www.nobleknight.com/ProductDetailSearch.asp_Q_ProductID_E_5172_A_Inven toryID_E_2147726766_A_ProductLineID_E__A_Manufactu rerID_E__A_CategoryID_E__A_GenreID_E_).

[ArmySGT.]

Car Wars had a tank supplement about 20 years ago.

Damn, where is my Car Wars boxed set? That would make for a fun friday night sit down game.

[pmulcahy11b]

Only $85 at Noble Knight (http://www.nobleknight.com/ProductDetailSearch.asp_Q_ProductID_E_5172_A_Inven toryID_E_2147726766_A_ProductLineID_E__A_Manufactu rerID_E__A_CategoryID_E__A_GenreID_E_).

You might as well say, "Only a million dollars..."

[copeab]

You might as well say, "Only a million dollars..."

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"

[Tegyrius]

You might as well say, "Only a million dollars..."
Oh, that was just information, not an endorsement. :D I like NobleKnight but I generally don't advocate paying their inflated collector prices for OOP gaming material.

- C.

[Webstral]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I'd forgotten all about Car Wars. What a great game that was!

[Legbreaker]

Such a great game for min-maxing that's for sure! :P
Can't go past an internal combustion engine, metal armour and component armour on a ten wheeler chassis as well as a robot gunner (to save weight and allow for even more armour), active suspension, and all those other expensive but oh so necessary upgrades. Throw in APDS ammo for your half dozen+ recoilless rifles and you're ready to roll.

[Cdnwolf]

http://www.dark-wind.com/

[Schone23666]

Okay...just gonna take a stab out in the open then and ask, for all those out there who have mech/armor experience...

If YOU, (yes, ALL of you) could develop a tank from the ground up, and we'll assume plenty of funding at least for R&D and design, what would you come up with??

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Okay...just gonna take a stab out in the open then and ask, for all those out there who have mech/armor experience...

If YOU, (yes, ALL of you) could develop a tank from the ground up, and we'll assume plenty of funding at least for R&D and design, what would you come up with??

Uh.

Well...when am I developing it? What is the guiding philosophy behind the people I'm designing it for? What kind of war are they building it to fight?

[Panther Al]

Okay...just gonna take a stab out in the open then and ask, for all those out there who have mech/armor experience...

If YOU, (yes, ALL of you) could develop a tank from the ground up, and we'll assume plenty of funding at least for R&D and design, what would you come up with??

Its already out there to a degree:

The Merkava IV: Better armoured, better armed, and faster than a M1 over rough terrain. Though I would go all out to build up HAPC, SPG, ARV, etc... the entire family of vehicle versions that might be needed to go along with - with the goal being that every armoured vehicle in an entire division is based of the same hull.

[ArmySGT.]

Okay...just gonna take a stab out in the open then and ask, for all those out there who have mech/armor experience...

If YOU, (yes, ALL of you) could develop a tank from the ground up, and we'll assume plenty of funding at least for R&D and design, what would you come up with??

Fast Lights to flank and exploit openings.

Medium Do alls, to be a universal chassis.

Heavy Chassis to force through a defended line.

A heavy built on the Medium Chassis specifically for urban.

[Panther Al]

Exactly.

A heavy, say around 70t, to be the mainline sort of unit that does the bulk of the in your face fighting.

A medium, say around 30t, in supporting roles where the heavier units are at a disadvantage, and is somewhat more mobile than the first, without giving up too much on firepower and armour. CV90 Family would work well, with the same broad based spectrum of vehicles filling every role in the division being all based on the same armoured chassis.

A lighter, rapid deployment capable force: The sort that can be airlifted at a moments notice to provide a little firepower and mobility to the traditional Para units, but whose mission is more akin to speed bump than anything else. Like the others, All based on the same chassis, though in this case an Armoured Car of around 15-20t is about right.

Furthermore:

I would do the same for softskins as well. I generic 1 to 3t chassis to fill the roles the Humvee does, a 3-7t chassis to serve as your typical cargo truck, and a 7 to 15t to serve as both a basis for the heavy trucks, but as a basis for the above mentioned armoured cars as much as possible (Wheels, engine, that sort). In all cases, minimize parts diversity as much as practicable. Hatches, for example should be the same on all armoured vehicles, same with seats and vision blocks, and down to engine parts and such like. If a Family of engines all using at its heart the same design, ranging from 200hp for the 2t light truck, 400 for the 5t trucks (Turbocharge to get 600 for the 8t trucks), 800 for the 12t trucks, Armoured cars, and Medium Armoured Vehicles, and 1600t for the heavy tracked vehicles, this would be perfect. Anything that could reduce the unique parts count would be taken. In the end, you get a easier, more streamlined system, where costs to stock and supply parts would be a lot cheaper, and training to maintain would also be cheaper, and easier - not to mention having the ability to pull techs from one type of unit to the other when needed to arrange for a maintenance push.



Obviously, this is something I have put a lot of thought into over the years. I've been toying around with various ways to restructure forces into forms that would have minimal logistical tails for a long while: down to figuring out how much ammo a soldier has on him, to how much baggage will weigh, how much ammo, food, and water is stored on various trucks, and how many trucks would be needed to support such.. etc, etc, etc....

[ArmySGT.]

I have been toying in my mind (Stand Back!) with a purpose built Infantry Support vehicle.

Not a large armored thing that provides cover fire.


A machine that can get in where the Legs go.


That is a generator, supports or recharges batteries for all the organic
electronics.

Reverse osmosis water filter.


A comms suite up to burst Sat Trans.


Carries a tremendous load of ammo for the infantry.


Provides hot water on demand, Ice maker too.


One or two seat mission planning area with digital maps, and small scale or
plotter scale prints to tyvek

[Panther Al]

While most of those can easily be put in your average medium (30t) chassis, I think that the last might be a bit much, unless...


Lets say we go for a mixed platoon:
3 APC's, since there is no turret, we can actually fit well sized infantry squad inside, not just a fire section. Equip it with a RWS, and use the weight saved to beef up frontal armour some and to ensure that the vehicle can carry three loadouts of ammo, with one of those already in magazines. (Hence, 630rd of 5.56 for each rifle, etc...) The forth vehicle is the platoons organic FS track, and also is the PL's ride. Equip that with a turret, armed with a 40mm gun so you can do Non Line of Sight Direct Fire (And yes, Non-LOS DF. Seriously, its actually doable with the ammo thats out there for the Bofors) and small section in back for such a facility to do maps and mission planning, as well as seats for a small specialist weapons team (Such as Stinger, or Javelin).

With the Heavier 70t vehicles, I think then, there would be room do all that in the same vehicle.

[Legbreaker]

Obviously, this is something I have put a lot of thought into over the years. I've been toying around with various ways to restructure forces into forms that would have minimal logistical tails for a long while: down to figuring out how much ammo a soldier has on him, to how much baggage will weigh, how much ammo, food, and water is stored on various trucks, and how many trucks would be needed to support such.. etc, etc, etc....

Sooo, starting your own private army then, or just intending to take over a small African nation for your retirement? :D

[copeab]

I would go with three vehicles:

A 5-10 ton scout with a crew of two and perhaps two dismounts. Light armor, high speed and mobility. Armed with a HMG and AGL. Amphibious.

A 30-40 ton tank with 3 man crew (autoloader). Medium armor, high speed and mobility. Armed with a 120-130mm gun. Not amphibious.

A 40-50 ton APC, crew of two and nine dismounts. Heavy armor, good speed and mobility. Armed as the scout. Not amphibious.

[Panther Al]

Sooo, starting your own private army then, or just intending to take over a small African nation for your retirement? :D

*laughs*


Have given it a thought I must say, and its not like it hasn't been tried before.

I've talked to more than a few Africans who lived under colonial times as well as what came after, and a pretty common refrain can be summed up as, "Yeah, it sucked when we was a colony: but not as bad as it does now!"

[ArmySGT.]

While most of those can easily be put in your average medium (30t) chassis, I think that the last might be a bit much, unless...

No you misunderstand.

Not as equipment that would go into an APC, but as something like a Platoon Level M577.

I conceive of it as a support vehicle for Dismounted Troops. Not as a Direct Support vehicle but, as a C3I with onboard water purification and a fuel cell power generation system. So at best it would have a ROWS, maybe as a place to coordinate GSR and REMBASS.

Driver and a TC only. Operates as a Patrol Base. In this way all the Platoon needs is food. They can get their water, and refresh their batteries in charging stations. The machine would carry in externally accessible bins Small Arms ammo.

Maybe a dozer blade to dig itself in, then deploy IR Screening nets.

[ArmySGT.]

People remember that the main limitation to armor design is that a railway car can carry it.

Length

Width

Weight

[Cdnwolf]

Anyone interested I have a pdf copy of Car Wars...

[Panther Al]

No you misunderstand.

Not as equipment that would go into an APC, but as something like a Platoon Level M577.

I conceive of it as a support vehicle for Dismounted Troops. Not as a Direct Support vehicle but, as a C3I with onboard water purification and a fuel cell power generation system. So at best it would have a ROWS, maybe as a place to coordinate GSR and REMBASS.

Driver and a TC only. Operates as a Patrol Base. In this way all the Platoon needs is food. They can get their water, and refresh their batteries in charging stations. The machine would carry in externally accessible bins Small Arms ammo.

Maybe a dozer blade to dig itself in, then deploy IR Screening nets.


Ah, gotcha. Yeah, this would be a useful thing to have at the company level, though to be fair, we pretty much do these days with the way the 577 I hung out in was set up.

[ArmySGT.]

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, this would be a useful thing to have at the company level, though to be fair, we pretty much do these days with the way the 577 I hung out in was set up.

I think it is time to push it down to the Platoon Level.

Take advantage of superior communications and coordination. Lift some of the Logistics burden with it too.

What is the log cycle for 11Bushes, 96 hours on consumables?

If they can make their own potable water, and don't need batteries. The Log push is extended to food and ammo as needed.

Then you have contact with 11Bs calling in supporting fires on enemy contact with the ability to interface with a Brigade FDC or a Theater Air Coord Center.

Superior Communications and Coordination to direct supporting fires. Then able to send up BDAs and receive new Orders.

Oops, I guess I am talking about Stryker Brigades and Force XXI gear.

[Panther Al]

Not everything about Force XXI and the Stryker Brigade Concept is bad: In fact, there is a lot (I'd go so far as to say most of it) of good stuff there. Its just the Vehicle itself, as well as the push to use it in places it should not be at, that is the core of my beef against it.

[ArmySGT.]

Not everything about Force XXI and the Stryker Brigade Concept is bad: In fact, there is a lot (I'd go so far as to say most of it) of good stuff there. Its just the Vehicle itself, as well as the push to use it in places it should not be at, that is the core of my beef against it.

Yes but the point of those newer vehicles is that the OPFOR should feel like they are shadow boxing. That the OPFORs every appearance is met with lethal fires from artillery assets or air dropped ordnance.

Special Forces put proof to the concept in Afghanistan ten years ago with systems barely integrated then.

Systems that could

Detect enemy forces in day, night, or other limited visibility
laser range find
laser designate.


Send by digital burst transmission a mission tasker with coordinates for the target to JSTARS.