GURPS Questions

[weswood]

I've been looking into the GURPS sytem for a while now, thinking of getting into it. I've got my patched together bastardized game rules, but I'm not happy about some of the rules, and I'm not coming up with anything better.

I'd like a game system that is easy to play & learn; flexible so that I can have post WWIII characters run into strangeness- lost islands filled with extinct mammals & dinosuars, enclaves in Europe where the locals are reduced to medieval style weapons & armors, maybe even throw some aliens at them.

I've looked over the GURPS 4th ed, I really like the Advantages and Disadvantages for characters, but I'm not real fond of the price. The GURPS 3rd ed is about half the cost (online @ e23, SJ games vendor) and seems to be more supported at this time than the 4th ed. How does the 3rd ed face up to the 4th? I know several of you use GURPS, what would you advice as far as an initial steps? Somethting to run a T2k campaign.

Thanks

[copeab]

I've been using GURPS 3e since 1990. While I have a long list of house rules for it, I decided not to switch to 4e since 4e made changes I didn't like and didn't make changes I thought were needed.

The 3e Basic Set has stats for plenty of modern small arms, although it has no stats for vehicles or heavy weapons. High Tech has stats for quite a few military weapons, but still no vehicles (however, you can fudge this by multiplying T2K armor by 13 to get GURPS DR, and just use the T2K vehicle damage charts).

The rules I use are very similar to the Lite rules in GURPS WWII, with a few significant exceptions:

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/ww2/

[spielmeister]

Weswood, Copeab is quite right. Although I've switched over to 4th ed, 3rd ed is still a good game and it is very liberally supported in terms of rulebooks and background material.

You can try securing a copy of Gurps Lite for 3rd ed and using that with Gurps WW2 lite. These are quite enough to get you up and running for a few intro games so you can decide whether or not you are ok with gurps for the long run.

Or, you can try downloading 4e lite and try it out first to see if it works for you.

As to using gurps in the t2000 setting, I managed to download a gurps 3e twilight 2000 conversion sometime back. It was a PDF file with quite an extensive detailing of gear, vehicles and even character stats (civilian pre-war careers included) all made out in 3e. I'll go check my hard drive tonight when I get home and see if I still have it. I also recall that an update of the same document (or something very much like it) was made for the 4th ed. In any case, I'll try to secure both and email them to you if you want them. I'm not sure if they are still available on the net (they are fan-generated documents) and I've lost the site from where I got them.

If you are after a system that allows post WWIII characters running into "weirdness" then Gurps allows this a lot. There is really no limit to how far you want the weirdness to go. It's a strength of the system.

[Marc]

Bon dia!

I have no experience with the 4ed of Gurps. But I agree totally with Copeab and Spielmeister about the 3rd Edition. I use the 3rd Edition rules to play games in ancient/medieval historical settings. From my point of view, no house-rules needed in this settings. For World War II scenarios I'm studying the possibility to use GURPS 3rd Ed, too. In fact, Spielmeiser has convinced me in a previous thread:) !

I think that the 3rd edition set or rules is very solid (and extensive). And the advantages/disadvantages/quirks system is a very good way for the players to imagine his/her own character and make it different from the others. You will find that every player has a clear vision of his character previously to the first gaming session.

Ah! And don't miss any chance to get the GURPS Character Builder! A great software to help the GM making characters and knowing the game!

[Targan]

Most people know what system I use but I will say one thing in support of GURPS - its supplements tend to be top notch. I have the GURPS Special Forces book and it is a really good read. Obviously for someone like me who has collected lots of info on spec ops world wide it doesn't contain anything new but for people who need a good overview for gaming purposes I can definitely recommend it.

[spielmeister]

Bon dia!

I have no experience with the 4ed of Gurps. But I agree totally with Copeab and Spielmeister about the 3rd Edition. I use the 3rd Edition rules to play games in ancient/medieval historical settings. From my point of view, no house-rules needed in this settings. For World War II scenarios I'm studying the possibility to use GURPS 3rd Ed, too. In fact, Spielmeiser has convinced me in a previous thread:) !

I think that the 3rd edition set or rules is very solid (and extensive). And the advantages/disadvantages/quirks system is a very good way for the players to imagine his/her own character and make it different from the others. You will find that every player has a clear vision of his character previously to the first gaming session.

Ah! And don't miss any chance to get the GURPS Character Builder! A great software to help the GM making characters and knowing the game!

I agree about Character Builder. It saved me oodles of prep time.

hey, tell me about how your WW2 game goes ok? I'm always open to hearing good gaming/war stories of fellow players. :)

[weswood]

I've looked at the Gurps Lite for 3rd ed, it states there is not enough room in the lite version for wounds to idividual body areas. Is there provisions made in the full version of either 3rd or 4th?

[copeab]

I've looked at the Gurps Lite for 3rd ed, it states there is not enough room in the lite version for wounds to idividual body areas. Is there provisions made in the full version of either 3rd or 4th?

Yes for 3e, probably for 4e.

[copeab]

You can try securing a copy of Gurps Lite for 3rd ed and using that with Gurps WW2 lite. These are quite enough to get you up and running for a few intro games so you can decide whether or not you are ok with gurps for the long run.


I should probably explain why I suggested Lite and WW2 Lite. Normal Lite is more "complete" with a full page of medieval type weapons and several firearms -- WWII Lite has much fewer melee weapons and no firearms (these are covered extensively elsewhere in the WWII book). Lite also has basic rules for magic and 14 common spells (Lite for 4e has no rules for magic or spells). All the versions of Lite use the Basic Combat System for melee combat -- WWII Lite, however, uses the Advanced Combat Rules for missile weapons, which I consider much more realistic without adding undue complexity. WWII Lite also includes rules for indirect fire and explosives. Also, the skill list for WWII Lite is more "modern" than regular Lite.

I'll also add that G:WWII has templates for quickly building several types of military characters (rifleman, armor crew, artillerist, sniper, commando, etc) which are for the most part suitable for use in a T2K setting (the main difference being more skill in electronic gadgets).

EDIT: Since you mentioned possible sueprnatural elements, I'll also add that over the last few years I've come to greatly perfer ritual magic (introduced in Voodoo and greatly expanded and genericized in Spirits) over the default spell magic.

Oh, and GURPS Dinosaurs rocks ;)

[spielmeister]

I've looked at the Gurps Lite for 3rd ed, it states there is not enough room in the lite version for wounds to idividual body areas. Is there provisions made in the full version of either 3rd or 4th?

Yes they also have this in the 4th ed.

[weswood]

Please define character template.

Is it like a D&D character class, ie fighter, mage, thief, etc, where the special abilityies of one class aren't available to other classes? (except in special cases)

Or is it like T2k, where those particular set of skills is required for that proffession, but that profession isn't limited to those skills- ie, a rifleman who happens to know how to hotwire a car?

[copeab]

Or is it like T2k, where those particular set of skills is required for that profession, but that profession isn't limited to those skills- ie, a rifleman who happens to know how to hotwire a car?

It's closet to this. It's a collection of suggested attribute levels, advantages, disadvantages and skills (and their levels) for a particular profession. Templates are mainly for new players, who might be overwhelmed by all the choices available to them. Templates (those that are well-done) also make sure a player doesn't accidentally overlook a vital skill a character should have.

Here's a (somewhat cinematic) Marine Raider template I did for a WWII adventure (it uses a slightly non-standard format):

Template Cost: 95

ST 11 [10]; DX 13 [30]; IQ 12 [20]; HT 11 [10]

Advantages: Fit [5]; Rank 1 [5]; 20 more points in national advantages

Disadvantages: Extremely Hazardous Duty [-20]; -20 more points in national disadvantages

Skills: Administration-11 [1]; Brawling-13 [1]; Boating-11 [0.5]; Camouflage-12 [1]; Climbing-12 [1]; Demolition-11 [1]; Elect Ops (Commo)-10 [0.5]; First Aid-11 [0.5]; Forward Observer-11 [1]; Gunner (MG)-14* [1]; Guns (Light Auto)-15* [1]; Guns (Rifle)-15* [1]; Hiking-10 [1]; Jumping-12 [0.5]; Knife-13 [1]; Leadership-12 [2]; Navigation-10 [0.5]; Orienteering-12 [2]; Savoir-Faire (Military)-12 [1]; Soldier-14 [6]; Spear-12 [1]; Stealth-13 [2]; Survival (Island)-11 [1]; Swimming-12 [0.5]; Tactics-12 [4]; Throwing-11 [1]; Traps-11 [1]

* Includes +2 for IQ 12

EDIT: I need to clarify that there are racial and professional templates. With racial templates, you generally *do* have to take all the parts of the package. Also, professional templates offer no point break over not using the template; racial templates (at least in 3e) could provide a small point discount compared to buying everything separately.

[Adm.Lee]

Please define character template.

Is it like a D&D character class, ie fighter, mage, thief, etc, where the special abilityies of one class aren't available to other classes? (except in special cases)

Or is it like T2k, where those particular set of skills is required for that proffession, but that profession isn't limited to those skills- ie, a rifleman who happens to know how to hotwire a car?

I'm no expert, but let me answer here:

Neither. There are no classes or professions at all*. You start with a pile of points, which you can put into attributes, advantages and skills. More points can be gained from taking disadvantages and quirks. Pretty much everything is wide-open.
You want a rifleman who can hotwire a car? Put the points into the appropriate skills. Buy some advantages and things to pile onto those, and other things to add 'character.'

*Now, in some settings books, there can be templates to add, like for college, or military basic training, cultural or species origin. These still have to be paid from the points pile, and consist of a package of advantages, disadvantages and skills. For instance, I have the Prime Directive book (based on Star Fleet Battles, itself based on Old Series Star Trek), where there are templates for Vulcan, Klingon, Star Fleet Academy, Marines, and so on.
For characters in T2k's setting, I would investigate the SpecOps and/or WW2 books, to see what packages there are for military specialty training.

There is (on the web, I think) a "guns, guns, guns" book that has a lot of firearms statted for GURPS.

[Targan]

There is (on the web, I think) a "guns, guns, guns" book that has a lot of firearms statted for GURPS.
In both editions of Guns, Guns, Guns that I have there are both pre-statted GURPS firearms and a conversion essay for turning 3G weapon stats into GURPS stats. I use 3G for all my weapons conversions to Gunmaster:2000.

[copeab]

In both editions of Guns, Guns, Guns that I have there are both pre-statted GURPS firearms and a conversion essay for turning 3G weapon stats into GURPS stats. I use 3G for all my weapons conversions to Gunmaster:2000.

Unfortunately, the conversion notes for GURPS are very poorly done and are effectively useless.

[Targan]

Unfortunately, the conversion notes for GURPS are very poorly done and are effectively useless.
In both 3G editions? I wouldn't know personally as I've only played GURPS once and that was when I was a teenager.

[spielmeister]

Please define character template.

Is it like a D&D character class, ie fighter, mage, thief, etc, where the special abilityies of one class aren't available to other classes? (except in special cases)

Or is it like T2k, where those particular set of skills is required for that proffession, but that profession isn't limited to those skills- ie, a rifleman who happens to know how to hotwire a car?


Copeab and Adm. Lee ably answered your query. The template is like a "suggestion" on how a typical character of a given race, profession or type (eg. imperial guardsman, marine raider, elven archer, etc...) would look like. It details what would be reasonable attributes, advantages, disadvantages and skills for said character. Templates can be "stacked" or modified depending on what character you want, the number of points of the character being the main (but no the only) limitation on mixing and matching.

[copeab]

In both 3G editions? I wouldn't know personally as I've only played GURPS once and that was when I was a teenager.

I only have 3G3 3rd edition (1991). Perhaps to be fair to it, the GURPS system for designing weapons didn't come out until 1998.

[Targan]

I only have 3G3 3rd edition (1991). Perhaps to be fair to it, the GURPS system for designing weapons didn't come out until 1998.
The most recent 3G rules I have are the revised third edition, 1996.

[Ed the Coastie]

I have long considered running T2K under the GURPS rules. When I do so, it will probably be under the 4e rules, since I have a copy of GURPS Update so I can readily convert my 3e stuff to 4e as necessary. Also, I really like 4e...it allows me to tweak things more than 3e did.

My biggest problem is the lack of vehicles pre-statted for 4e. But that is not really that overwhelming of an obstacle, since there are literally hundreds of vehicles statted out for 3e (many of them in the old "Vehicle of the Week" archive) and I will eventually crunch out 4e stats for the vehicles that I want to use.

The other "problem" with running T2K under GURPS is lethality. It is VERY easy for a character in GURPS to get killed, particularly in gun combat. But if the PCs are careful (and my usual bunch of players are), they will do fine.

[weswood]

The other "problem" with running T2K under GURPS is lethality. It is VERY easy for a character in GURPS to get killed, particularly in gun combat. But if the PCs are careful (and my usual bunch of players are), they will do fine.

I like that! Gots to keep them on their toesies!

I purchased the 3rd ed online, downloading it as I type. The 3rd ed Basic Set, and the Modern Firearms Book. If I like the way it works, I'll look at the Vehicle Builder program.

I certainly appreciate the input, genltemen.

[copeab]

I like that! Gots to keep them on their toesies!

I purchased the 3rd ed online, downloading it as I type. The 3rd ed Basic Set, and the Modern Firearms Book. If I like the way it works, I'll look at the Vehicle Builder program.

I certainly appreciate the input, genltemen.

Unless you normally use miniatures, I *strongly* recommend you use the Basic Combat System for melee combat, at least at first.

Oh, I have Vehicle Builder and I'm not afraid to use it ;)

[spielmeister]

The other "problem" with running T2K under GURPS is lethality. It is VERY easy for a character in GURPS to get killed, particularly in gun combat. But if the PCs are careful (and my usual bunch of players are), they will do fine.

Yes Ed, that's true in my case too. I noticed my players tended to be more careful when I ran military-themed games in gurps. And this is a good thing too as the PCs tend to be careful.

[Marc]

Yes Ed, that's true in my case too. I noticed my players tended to be more careful when I ran military-themed games in gurps. And this is a good thing too as the PCs tend to be careful.

I've always thought that the best way to make notice to the players that the game system is dangerous is the way your NPC's act. If the player sees the NPC taking cover, or taking minimum risk, or retreating with needed, they will quickly tune in to the game.

[Marc]

I agree about Character Builder. It saved me oodles of prep time.

hey, tell me about how your WW2 game goes ok? I'm always open to hearing good gaming/war stories of fellow players. :)

Ei Spielmeister! I will keep you informed! Surely, next week we will run the "What if" Pegasus Bridge scenario. It will be my first experience with GURPS in a military setting.

[copeab]

The other "problem" with running T2K under GURPS is lethality. It is VERY easy for a character in GURPS to get killed, particularly in gun combat. But if the PCs are careful (and my usual bunch of players are), they will do fine.

That depends. If you are using the the blowthrough rule, characters can pass out often from gunshots, but rarely make death checks. If you don't use the optional bleeding rules, the character can lie there passed out for some time without ill effect.

Dropping the blowthrough rule makes combat more lethal immediately. Using the bleeding rules makes combat more lethal eventually.

(all of the above is for 3e; the blowthrough rule meant that any attack doing less than 15d6 damage, basically a heavy MG, could do no more damage than the character's Health score, 10 for an average person)

[copeab]

I agree about Character Builder. It saved me oodles of prep time.

Be careful, there are 3e and 4e versions of the program.

hey, tell me about how your WW2 game goes ok? I'm always open to hearing good gaming/war stories of fellow players. :)

*My* weird WWII campaign is going quite well ;)

[Targan]

That depends. If you are using the the blowthrough rule, characters can pass out often from gunshots, but rarely make death checks. If you don't use the optional bleeding rules, the character can lie there passed out for some time without ill effect.

Dropping the blowthrough rule makes combat more lethal immediately. Using the bleeding rules makes combat more lethal eventually.
Gunmaster/Harnmaster has both of these effects. Almost any form of serious damage (even quite light damage if it is to the head) can knock a character out, and bleeding wounds are a major problem.

[spielmeister]

Ei Spielmeister! I will keep you informed! Surely, next week we will run the "What if" Pegasus Bridge scenario. It will be my first experience with GURPS in a military setting.

Great! Have a good game. :) I'm sure it'll be memorable.

[spielmeister]

Be careful, there are 3e and 4e versions of the program.



*My* weird WWII campaign is going quite well ;)

This is online? :)

[copeab]

This is online? :)

Yup. Been running the weird WWII campaign since spring 2005 in the Pyramid Online chatroom.

[spielmeister]

Yup. Been running the weird WWII campaign since spring 2005 in the Pyramid Online chatroom.

Hey alright! I'll check this out. Been a long running game as I can see- since spring 2005. Great.

[copeab]

Hey alright! I'll check this out. Been a long running game as I can see- since spring 2005. Great.

In the current adventure, it's December 2, 1941 and the PCs are in Honolulu ...

The PCs are:
Shinichi Kuroda: Shinto priest with very good ritual magic skills, born in the US.
Professor George Hamilton: archeologist and linguist with average ritual magic and alchemy skills, University of Chicago
Micky O'Malley: Irish spelunker and construction worker, werecentipede. Almost strong enough to shoulder-fire the Boys.

Games are on alternating Saturdays from 7-11pm central time.

[weswood]

Micky O'Malley: Irish spelunker and construction worker, werecentipede. Almost strong enough to shoulder-fire the Boys.

.


A werecentipede:confused: There's one you don't hear every day. Or even once a week....or month.....matter of fact this is my first time I've heard that one!

[headquarters]

nice set up -I like the mix .

[spielmeister]

In the current adventure, it's December 2, 1941 and the PCs are in Honolulu ...

The PCs are:
Shinichi Kuroda: Shinto priest with very good ritual magic skills, born in the US.
Professor George Hamilton: archeologist and linguist with average ritual magic and alchemy skills, University of Chicago
Micky O'Malley: Irish spelunker and construction worker, werecentipede. Almost strong enough to shoulder-fire the Boys.

Games are on alternating Saturdays from 7-11pm central time.

Nice... from the date in-game I see that they are on the 'eve of destruction' so to speak. A werecentipede almost strong enough to fire a boys rifle :) nice.... this is where gurps really shines. you can put in a lot of weird stuff and run with it.

[copeab]

Nice... from the date in-game I see that they are on the 'eve of destruction' so to speak.

Before I started the adventure, I read _At Dawn We Slept_. I think I made the players sufficiently paranoid telling them about how much worse the attack could have been for the US, so they started worrying about changing things the wrong way.

So far, the PCs have been warned to back off by the FBI and are being encouraged by Naval Intelligence (the PCs have worked for the US and British governments previously).

A werecentipede almost strong enough to fire a boys rifle :) nice.... this is where gurps really shines. you can put in a lot of weird stuff and run with it.

Yup. Strange PCs are always nice.

[pmulcahy11b]

Nice... from the date in-game I see that they are on the 'eve of destruction' so to speak. A werecentipede almost strong enough to fire a boys rifle :) nice.... this is where gurps really shines. you can put in a lot of weird stuff and run with it.

You can also do that by throwing a lot of Dark Conspiracy, 2300AD, and Cadillacs and Dinosaurs into your games...and a healthy helping of imagination doesn't hurt. (That's on this board in great abundance!)

[pmulcahy11b]

A werecentipede almost strong enough to fire a boys rifle :)

Just don't turn one of the players into a weresloth...I did that in a D&D game as a joke.

[MW Turnage]

I'm an old GURPS fan, and also one of copeab players (though in another online campaign). I'll chime in in favor of GURPS 4e, though. I think it's a better choice for someone new to the system, and there's been a lot of stuff that's come out recently (and in the pipeline) that's nice. If you want to go that route, the core rules and High-Tech 4e are the only must-haves; Martial Arts and the SEALS in Vietnam PDF would be handy, but not essential. Also, if you're worried about lethality, the new Action! series of PDFs look like they'd be nice for dialing that down and making it a bit more cinematic.

On the other hand, 3E does have more material on modern weaponry and armor available. On the downside, some of this has the problems that built up over time with 3E (particularly vehicle stats), plus it's all out-of-print, though a lot can still be had cheap from SJGames. Either way they're tailor-made for a T2K-style game.

One suggestion, though: you can go far sticking to the Lite version of either edition. There's a tremendous amount of addition material and rules that can be added, but just because it can doesn't mean it should. There's a lot of options, and it's easy to bog a game down at the expense of fun and playability if you're not careful.

[spielmeister]

yes, using Lite and exercising your option to adopt (or reject) whetever rules you like or dislike is a good way to go. Some of my players now are advocating this approach. It seems we kinda burned out last game since we got deluged with sourcebooks and rules in the 4e.

[spielmeister]

Just don't turn one of the players into a weresloth...I did that in a D&D game as a joke.

Paul, I'm trying to imagine what he looks like. But yes, it keeps coming back to me as a joke. :) neat one though....

[Targan]

I shy away from even the concept of "Roolz Lite" like a vampire avoids garlic. Pile on the crunch I say.

[copeab]

I shy away from even the concept of "Roolz Lite" like a vampire avoids garlic. Pile on the crunch I say.

As the years go by, I prefer to simplify the systems I use. I've even considered moving everything to Fudge.

[copeab]

One suggestion, though: you can go far sticking to the Lite version of either edition. There's a tremendous amount of addition material and rules that can be added, but just because it can doesn't mean it should. There's a lot of options, and it's easy to bog a game down at the expense of fun and playability if you're not careful.

My suggestion is to use the Lite rules for melee combat and only use more advanced rules for missile fire (I think 4e Lite includes rules for target range/speed/size, whereas 3e Lite doesn't (this is why I like the Lite rules from WWII)