Semi-OT:Ammo load [Archive]

copeab

11-10-2011, 10:45 AM

I'm aware that in T2K, the answer to "How much ammo dies a soldier carry?" is "How much can he find?"

I'm running a Weird WWII campaign where the PCs are members of an OSS team, so these are not line infantry (their missions are more akin to special ops raids or patrols).

Two of the players have a fairly good grasp of ammo loads. Two, however, either try to carry too little or too much. So I was thinking of coming up with guidelines such as:

For a "standard" mission, figure 100 rounds per automatic weapon, 50 rounds per semiautomatic weapon and three magazines per pistol. 2-3 grenades (fragmentation, concussion, smoke) may also be carried.

For a 'long term' mission, double those numbers.

FWIW. weapons commonly used by the team include the BAR, silenced Sten (normally only fired semiauto to preserve the silencer), M-1 Garand, M-1 carbine and Atlantean "AK-47"*. Three PCs carry Browning HPs and one a custom Colt M-1911A1. One of those (the ex-mafia hitman) with a Browning also carries a silenced Mosin-nagant revolver for "special occasions". At times they have had a flamethrower or light mortar. It's a rare mission where they don't carry at least one satchel charge ;)

Common longarms are one BAR, two Garands and one M-1 carbine (the Shinto priest usually doesn't carry anything heavier than the carbine).

Does this sound like too much or too little ammo for troops who aren't expected to engage in "normal" combat?

* This ws a failed attempt by the Atlanteans to provide the Allies with an automatic weapon that quickly and easily built by the Allies. However it was rejected as being too crude, inaccurate and underpowered (compared tot he Garand and Lee-Enfield). To simplify ammo supply (and further damn the weapon to the military), it used the .30-30 round (which is actually a bit more powerful than the 7.62x39mm). About half were kept by the OSS and Marines, while the rest were covertly dumped on the defeated Russians ...

dragoon500ly

11-10-2011, 11:37 AM

Well, IRL the BAR Gunner's belt had six pouches, each holding two 20-round mags, the asst BAR gunner would carry a bandoleer with six additional 20-round mags.

The cartridge belt would hold ten 8-round clips for his M-1, normal issue was for two bandoleers, each holding six t-round clips.

Pistol would be issued with three 7-round magazines.

Carbines would be issued three 15-round magazines (and 90 loose rounds)

SMGs would be issued three ways; early thompson would be two five-mag pouches, each holding a 20-round magazine; late thompson would be two three-mag pouches, each holding a 30-round magazine (Rangers, paratroopers, Marine Raiders would get one or two 50-rounds drums but this would be 1942-43 only). Late war M-3 would either get the same two three-mag pouches, each holding a 30-round magazine or a ammo pouch that held all six 30-round magazines. It would not be unusual for a SMG user to have a box or two of .45 to top off magazines (50-100 rounds).

If you kick it and issue a M-1919A6, then the three man crew would carry three 250-round belts and each member of the squad would carry another can with a 250-round belt. Not only was this used with the MG, but rounds could be stripped from the belts and M-1 clips reloaded.

copeab

11-10-2011, 01:13 PM

Well, IRL the BAR Gunner's belt had six pouches, each holding two 20-round mags, the asst BAR gunner would carry a bandoleer with six additional 20-round mags.

As there are only four PCs and usually no more than two NPCs (one of which carries a field radio and the second it the mechanic/copilot of their plane), there is normally no assistant BAR gunner, although the carbine-carrying priest could carry extra ammo for it if he's not carrying explosives (I think he has the best Demolitions in the group).

Pistol would be issued with three 7-round magazines.

I might make it four mags for the guys with Brownings, as each has one mag of silver bullets which would be wasted on most targets.

Carbines would be issued three 15-round magazines (and 90 loose rounds)

The loose ammo would probably be in magazines in this case.

If you kick it and issue a M-1919A6, then the three man crew would carry three 250-round belts and each member of the squad would carry another can with a 250-round belt. Not only was this used with the MG, but rounds could be stripped from the belts and M-1 clips reloaded.

Unless the team gets additional troops assigned to them as "security" they are not likely to have a tripod-mounted weapon. The mortar they had was the Italian 45mm Brixia, which could be carried (35 lbs) and operated by one man, and they abandoned it when they had to make a hasty getaway once. They are looking to replace it with the 60mm M-19 mortar (22 lbs with sling and baseplate).

They do have a bit of an armory, which they keep in their Grumman goose most of the time.

Mahatatain

11-10-2011, 01:42 PM

One guide I always found interesting comes from an old RPG set in Vietnam called "The Revised Recon" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recon_%28role-playing_game%29

In that (on pages 45 & 46 if you get hold of a copy) they give an example of the gear carried by a new arrival in Vietnam and what he's carrying six months later. It's an RPG so I've no idea of the level of accuracy but he goes from carrying 4 spare mags for his M16 to carrying 16 (and ditching a lot of other crap as well).

I think however that the key question for your game, and the amount of ammo the characters are carrying around, is how frequently they think that they're going to be resupplied? If they're not going to be in action for very long and can expect an extraction fairly quickly then they don't need to carry as much ammo. If they know that they're going to be on the ground with multiple firefights then they know they need to carry more.

However as a GM I'd give them some advice and then let them decide and see what happens, quite possibly putting them in longer range firefights that use up more ammo, particularly if there was a PC not carrying enough ammo and I wanted to make a point. Obviously should anyone start running short of ammo there is always the option of switching to a captured weapon.

dragoon500ly

11-10-2011, 02:40 PM

As there are only four PCs and usually no more than two NPCs (one of which carries a field radio and the second it the mechanic/copilot of their plane), there is normally no assistant BAR gunner, although the carbine-carrying priest could carry extra ammo for it if he's not carrying explosives (I think he has the best Demolitions in the group).

I included the BAR bandoleer as an easy means of providing six extra mags. A US Squad would often have 3-4 men carrying this.

The loose ammo would probably be in magazines in this case

Evil grin....the M-1 Carbine was only issued with 3 mags....even paratroopers and Rangers....

Unless the team gets additional troops assigned to them as "security" they are not likely to have a tripod-mounted weapon. The mortar they had was the Italian 45mm Brixia, which could be carried (35 lbs) and operated by one man, and they abandoned it when they had to make a hasty getaway once. They are looking to replace it with the 60mm M-19 mortar (22 lbs with sling and baseplate).

The M1919A6 was the 1944/45 US entry into the light machine gun contest. It really was a M-1919A4 (the tripod-mounted version), fitted with a fixed bipod, a carrying handle, a buttstock and a modified trigger/firing grip. It could be operated by one person, but was better used with a loader.

Legbreaker

11-10-2011, 04:42 PM

In more recent times an L1A1 SLR was issued as a base load three 20 round mags. An M16 ten 20 round mags and M60 600 rounds of link. That's just base load... If combat was expected then ammo would be however much can be carried.

Mahatatain

11-10-2011, 04:47 PM

In more recent times an L1A1 SLR was issued as a base load three 20 round mags.
Which army was that in? It seems scarily low!

mcchordsage

11-10-2011, 05:43 PM

Recon's not far off (Wow, someone else out there who knows what that is), I have a series of books about LRRP/Ranger units in Vietnam (sort of like the type of OSS operations being discussed) and most of the chapters have pretty could descriptions of the gear men took into the field. Unsurprisingly, your average soldier is carrying a lot more ammunition (and water) then 'issue'. Sixteen mags for an M-16 sounds about right, but I could look up a few real life examples.

In more recent times an L1A1 SLR was issued as a base load three 20 round mags.

That can't be, two SLR magazine pouches with a capacity of two magazines were issued standard with web gear (like the US Army's M-16 pouches).

Legbreaker

11-10-2011, 06:06 PM

Australian. Mind you that's 1st line ammo and if combat was expected then you got two, three, five times as much.
However, as has been posted in another thread a few weeks ago (which one escapes me at the moment) one of the greatest Australian battles started off with nothing more than 1st line ammo - Battle of Long Tan in Vietnam.

Back when I did my initial infantry training we had an average of 11 blanks per SLR to last us a week - cutbacks.... :(
The M60s had about 200 rounds and there wasn't a single M16 in sight.

There was lots of screaming "BANG".

With regard to the pouches, yes, we had two of them, but the second was used for grenades or other items. Great place to keep your chocolate handy.

Mahatatain

11-11-2011, 05:33 AM

Back when I did my initial infantry training we had an average of 11 blanks per SLR to last us a week - cutbacks.... :(
The M60s had about 200 rounds and there wasn't a single M16 in sight.

There was lots of screaming "BANG".

With regard to the pouches, yes, we had two of them, but the second was used for grenades or other items. Great place to keep your chocolate handy.
That's mad! 11 blanks each per week! I swear that I fired more than that as an Army Cadet! <G>

When were these cutbacks? I thought that you were in the Australian Army in the early 90's and I didn't realise that there were cutbacks going on then!

dragoon500ly

11-11-2011, 11:38 AM

Mahatatain

11-11-2011, 12:02 PM

Raellus

11-11-2011, 02:32 PM

dragoon500ly

11-11-2011, 02:44 PM

Worked in the end, we got to...err...overwatch a nudist colony for the afternoon!

weswood

11-11-2011, 05:11 PM

Cutbacks happen all the time, regardless of the branch of the military. I remember in 1979 going on company (armor)-level maneuvers...dismounted due to having used up our fuel allotment for the month.

I just had a flashback...back in the early 80's a bunch of drink friends (plus me) were messing with the drive through clerk @ Whitecastle in Columbus Ga. We went throught the drive through, in the car, then we went through in the car in reverse, then we parked the car and mimed being in the car.

I can just picture you walking in formation where you'd be sitting in your vehicles.

Fusilier

11-11-2011, 05:22 PM

a bunch of drink friends (plus me) were messing with the drive through clerk @ Whitecastle in Columbus Ga. We went throught the drive through, in the car, then we went through in the car in reverse, then we parked the car and mimed being in the car.

LOL

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9668/1316042546104.jpg

HorseSoldier

11-14-2011, 11:57 PM

Even at secret squirrel levels, a mission brief would include a specified ammunition load. Guys might scrounge up more, but even if you're on SEAL Team 6 if you show up for a raid with a two M4 and two pistol mags because you don't think you'll need it or similar, people senior to you are going to start reconsidering your elite status pretty quickly.

Too much ammo is a different problem -- most game mechanics don't do encumbrance very well and encourage guys to parse out their equipment load to the microgram to meet a specific encumbrance load. You could maybe work some sort of fatigue rules or modify encumbrance rules (not familiar with the core game system in question) to be more nuanced and discourage guys from carrying quadruple basic loads because they have a high strength or endurance, etc.

copeab

11-15-2011, 01:49 AM

Even at secret squirrel levels, a mission brief would include a specified ammunition load. Guys might scrounge up more, but even if you're on SEAL Team 6 if you show up for a raid with a two M4 and two pistol mags because you don't think you'll need it or similar, people senior to you are going to start reconsidering your elite status pretty quickly.

The players are good about their characters rarely carrying more than two guns -- a pistol and a rifle. The only common exception is the guy with the silenced Nagant revolver*; because it has a rather anemic round, he often also carries a Browning HP in case he needs a handgun but doesn't need to be quite. Likewise, a couple characters will take along a silenced Sten as well as their rifle if they think silence is more important than raw firepower (but they will just as often not take their rifles).

Excluding pistols, the most common armament of the team is a BAR, two Garands and one M-1 carbine.

* Yes, such a thing existed, and was fairly quiet.

Mahatatain

11-15-2011, 04:41 AM

copeab - if your players want silenced weapons have you ever heard of the De Lisle carbine - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine

It's supposed to have been one of the most silent weapons ever made!

dragoon500ly

11-15-2011, 06:28 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AMei19G_hqA

Even better, how about a video of one firing!

Targan

11-15-2011, 06:47 AM

Wow, just like Wikipedia says. The bolt action is louder than the firing report. Very impressive.

dragoon500ly

11-15-2011, 06:54 AM

and here is the silenced Nagant...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AMei19G_hqA

dragoon500ly

11-15-2011, 06:58 AM

not OT...but I couldn't resist when I saw it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kl6zcB83xng

dragoon500ly

11-15-2011, 07:00 AM

and finally...the Welrod!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZLJrZPZPRw4

Mahatatain

11-15-2011, 07:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AMei19G_hqA

Even better, how about a video of one firing!
Fantastic - I've never seen one fired for real, though I'm sure that I saw them in a film at some point....

dragoon500ly

11-15-2011, 09:38 AM

and here is a silenced Sten...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SKkKlWWmEbM

dragoon500ly

11-15-2011, 09:40 AM

and, of course, the Bren...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PHTrBwh15HM

Mahatatain

11-15-2011, 10:29 AM

and here is a silenced Sten...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SKkKlWWmEbM
OK - that's quieter than an non silenced Sten but it's hardly "quiet"! <G>

copeab

11-15-2011, 10:58 AM

copeab - if your players want silenced weapons have you ever heard of the De Lisle carbine - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine

Yep. And at least one of the players has. His character (the ex-Navy pilot) had a Lee-Enfield in the first couple of adventures he was in, then upgraded to the Garand. The rifle (and his old Webley pistol) are now part of the "weapon" locker on the Grumman Goose, along with another character's old .38 revolver and a 16-gauge single barreled shotgun).

copeab

11-15-2011, 11:09 AM

and, of course, the Bren...

FWIW, Belgium made a version of the BAR (in 7.65mm) with a pistol grip and quick-change barrel (although it retained the 20 round agazine).

The Swedish version (in 6.5mm) also had a pistol grip and, later, a quick-change barrel.

dragoon500ly

11-15-2011, 12:44 PM

Fantastic - I've never seen one fired for real, though I'm sure that I saw them in a film at some point....

I was surprised to see someone owning one....tends to violate laws in several states, not to mention the Feds....

dragoon500ly

11-15-2011, 12:46 PM

I just had a flashback...back in the early 80's a bunch of drink friends (plus me) were messing with the drive through clerk @ Whitecastle in Columbus Ga. We went throught the drive through, in the car, then we went through in the car in reverse, then we parked the car and mimed being in the car.

I can just picture you walking in formation where you'd be sitting in your vehicles.

Not quite....it was the crews deploying as sections and telling our LT what we would do and what positions we would select....it was a sight to see us in our steel pots, flak vests, ALICE gear and toting pistols and grease guns! The locals couldn't figure out what we were doing.

dragoon500ly

11-15-2011, 12:49 PM

OK - that's quieter than an non silenced Sten but it's hardly "quiet"! <G>

True...but you don't really notice the difference until you see an unsilenced Sten firing.

But based on what I've seen so far, I'd rather use the De Lisle and the Welrod, they are impressive in their near silence....

Tegyrius

11-15-2011, 05:25 PM

I was surprised to see someone owning one....tends to violate laws in several states, not to mention the Feds....
Not really. It's totally within the bounds of federal law as long as you have the $200 tax stamp. Currently takes about four months to get BATFE to sign off, but that's a function of the examiners' workload rather than the intensity of the scrutiny.

- C.

ArmySGT.

11-15-2011, 05:38 PM

I was surprised to see someone owning one....tends to violate laws in several states, not to mention the Feds....

There are some States where owning a silencer is illegal. As for the Feds it is registered as a NFA and you pay your $200 tax stamp and get your paperwork back when your background check clears.

Local and State .gov have more hoops than the Federal in this regard.

There is a place in Ohio that manufactures new Delisles for sale today.

Sanjuro

11-15-2011, 07:32 PM

The weird thing about British gun laws... one of the easiest things to get approval for is a silencer!

Panther Al

11-15-2011, 07:52 PM

Not really. It's totally within the bounds of federal law as long as you have the $200 tax stamp. Currently takes about four months to get BATFE to sign off, but that's a function of the examiners' workload rather than the intensity of the scrutiny.

- C.

Thought it was a Form 4 and 50 bucks - the 200 was for a Short Barreled Rifle or Machine Gun.

Guess things have changed from back in the day when I was in the MG game.

Tegyrius

11-15-2011, 08:02 PM

There is a place in Ohio that manufactures new Delisles for sale today.

Special Interest Arms in Nevada offers them too.

http://www.specialinterestarms.com/index.php?page=home

Thought it was a Form 4 and 50 bucks - the 200 was for a Short Barreled Rifle or Machine Gun.

Guess things have changed from back in the day when I was in the MG game.

Form 1 is for registering a new NFA item, Form 4 is for acquiring an existing one. Either way, it's $200 for a suppressor, SBR, SBS, or full auto. I'm not aware of a $50 tax stamp, though I believe there is a $5 one for AOWs like pen guns and Serbu Super Shorties.

- C.

HorseSoldier

11-16-2011, 01:37 AM

The weird thing about British gun laws... one of the easiest things to get approval for is a silencer!

I've noticed on television that they seem to be popular with British deer hunters -- I guess it doesn't spook other game, doesn't spook local livestock, and doesn't spook the locals like a full bore bang.

Over here in the US, state laws can complicate stuff that is federally legal with ATF approval. Sometimes in odd ways -- Alabama is a pretty gun friendly place (to understate wildly), but short barrel rifles less than 16" are completely illegal and may be the same with suppressors. Which is weird to me in a shall-issue concealed carry state that has zero training or education requirements for concealed carry, just a permit after a background check.

Targan

11-16-2011, 01:58 AM

Yep. And at least one of the players has. His character (the ex-Navy pilot) had a Lee-Enfield in the first couple of adventures he was in, then upgraded to the Garand.

Personal taste I guess but I don't regard going from an SMLE to a Garand as being an "upgrade" ;)

dragoon500ly

11-16-2011, 07:46 AM

Personal taste I guess but I don't regard going from an SMLE to a Garand as being an "upgrade" ;)

No accounting for taste! :p

dragoon500ly

11-16-2011, 07:47 AM

Special Interest Arms in Nevada offers them too.

http://www.specialinterestarms.com/index.php?page=home

Form 1 is for registering a new NFA item, Form 4 is for acquiring an existing one. Either way, it's $200 for a suppressor, SBR, SBS, or full auto. I'm not aware of a $50 tax stamp, though I believe there is a $5 one for AOWs like pen guns and Serbu Super Shorties.

- C.

All depends on which state you live in too....some are errrr "silencer unfriendly"!

copeab

11-16-2011, 11:22 AM

Personal taste I guess but I don't regard going from an SMLE to a Garand as being an "upgrade" ;)

I think he was looking at it from two angles: easier to get more ammo for the Garand than the SMLE and a RoF issue if he ever had to put a lot of lead downrange quickly.

(In GURPS, with one second turns, most bolt-action rifles get one shot every two seconds; the SMLE with it's good action gets one shot a second. The Garand, like most semi-automatic weapons in the game, gets three shots a second, although the higher recoil and minimum Strength will make rapid fire with the Garand rather inaccurate past the first shot until a turn is take to steady the gun and not fire)