Belize

[James Langham]

Anyone have any canon references to Belize?

[Targan]

An army marches on its Belize?

[ArmySGT.]

An army marches on its Belize?

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/Makes%20me%20laugh/Insults/1264056543708.jpg

[kalos72]

General Pain did a Belize guide once...i tried to upload it here but it failed. Search his hisotry...

[Legbreaker]

I believe there's only reference to Belize in Merc:2000 and/or the Gazetter. It's not exactly T2K, but I can't think of too many reasons why it can't still be incorporated in some form or other.

[James Langham]

Thanks guys, didn't think there were any. Having reread "The Long Reach" by Mike Lunnon-Wood I have a few plans...

[Rainbow Six]

You're probably aware of this, but on the off chance that you're not Rowland White (same guy who wrote Vulcan 607) wrote a non fiction work about Belize called Phoenix Squadron which may be of some use.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Anyone have any canon references to Belize?

Like Legbreaker said, the closest would be the Merc 2000 Gazetter entry for Belize. Neighboring Guatemala claims that Belize is actually part of Guatemala and sends in the troops. The Belize Defense Forces respond, the UK raises some mercs, as does the US. I can't remember the specifics but the implication was that the US air mobile group is actually paid for by US oil companies.

Here's a wikipedia entry on the real life Guatemala/Belize dispute:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemalan_claim_to_Belizean_territory

Anyone know what real life UK forces were stationed in Belize in 1994?

and would the invasion of Belize even happen in T2K? Guatemala with US support was fighting a communist style insurgency in the 80's.

[dude_uk]

The forces posted in 1994 are probably more a reflection of the budget cuts of the 1990's, rather than actually helping defend Belize against Guatamala. During the 1980's there were 1,500.

Here's a rough ORBAT that I came up with:


633 (Belize) Signals Troop RSIGS

1 X Infantry Battalion / 1x Infantry Company (Depending on political climate)

Battery Royal Artillery
Blowpipe Troop, 43 AD Battery

52 Field Sqn RE

‘Detachment’- 7 Regiment AAC

24 Transport Sqn RCT (Until 1992)

78 (BELIZE) Coy RAOC (Until 1992)

(Belize) Provost Plt RMP

[Rainbow Six]

There was also a Royal Air Force presence

Six Harriers were stationed in Belize from 1977 until July 1993, initially as Harrier Detachment (Hardet) Belize which became 1417 Flight.

1563 Flight operated the Puma helicopter until it was withdrawn in 1994.

[Olefin]

Some of the draw down was also that Guatemala began to accept the fact that Belize could exist as an independent nation, whereas in the 1980' there was a real chance that Guatemala would invade the country.

Now given the state of Britain by say 1998 that could easily change.

By the way one thing to take into account would be the effect of Hurricane Mitch in late 1998 on the whole of Central America and how that would affect an area that already would be reeling from the affects of the war.

(i.e. keep in mind that the only Central American nation besides Mexico producing any oil would be Guatemala - so the only way for them to run vehicles would be either methanol or ethanal - here comes Mitch and a lot of damage to agriculture so there goes the ethanol)

[kato13]

(i.e. keep in mind that the only Central American nation besides Mexico producing any oil would be Guatemala - so the only way for them to run vehicles would be either methanol or ethanal - here comes Mitch and a lot of damage to agriculture so there goes the ethanol)

If you are going for realism, methanol production will not work as it does in the game. While it makes for interesting gameplay it is not possible given chemical and biological restrictions. I still cringe a bit whenever i see someone mention it in a discussion of large scale post apocalyptic logistics. I understand it counters canon, but to me it is actually less realistic than zombies.

For more information see here http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=226

[pmulcahy11b]

General Pain did a Belize guide once...i tried to upload it here but it failed. Search his hisotry...

I have a PDF of a website someone did in the past about Central america in T2K called "Copan" -- sadly, I have failed so far in contacting the author. He has some interesting stuff about Central america.

I actually have several PDFs of lost websites, but only one person (TR) has given me permission to post his site.

[pmulcahy11b]

If you are going for realism, methanol production will not work as it does in the game. While it makes for interesting gameplay it is not possible given chemical and biological restrictions. I still cringe a bit whenever i see someone mention it in a discussion of large scale post apocalyptic logistics. I understand it counters canon, but to me it is actually less realistic than zombies.

For more information see here http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=226

Has anyone with a science background done some research into how it really works? Would it work at all for game purposes?

[Olefin]

You have to assume there has been a lot of Twilight 2000 material that has been lost over the years - the most tantalizing being what was supposed to be in the last magazine that was never published that would have finally touched on conditions in Australia

plus there had to be authors at GDW besides Frank Frey who were working on modules - i.e. his incomplete Kenya module

As for realism - you have to wonder if the designers even had anyone with a science background as part of their team

They defnitely were lacking in knowledge on naval warfare for sure (as anyone who has ever read Satellite Down, the RDF or anywhere else the canon deals with the USN)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You know, it is just a game.
It's not meant to be a hardcore, realistic, survival simulator.

Nobody would have even started playing RPGs if D&D was "realistic", (with all that xenophobia, bigotry, religious persecution, disease, famine, warfare, primitive medicine, primitive science, fear of the unknown, fear of travellers, fear of loners, indentured servitude, unhealthy living conditions, even less healthy work conditions etc. etc. of the "real" medieval European world - no chance the real world of that time will let people game out their own personal empowerment fantasies)

[Schone23666]

You know, it is just a game.
It's not meant to be a hardcore, realistic, survival simulator.

Nobody would have even started playing RPGs if D&D was "realistic", (with all that xenophobia, bigotry, religious persecution, disease, famine, warfare, primitive medicine, primitive science, fear of the unknown, fear of travellers, fear of loners, indentured servitude, unhealthy living conditions, even less healthy work conditions etc. etc. of the "real" medieval European world - no chance the real world of that time will let people game out their own personal empowerment fantasies)

Say, now hold on a minute there! "Puffs chest ridiculously" I happen to be a "veteran" D&D player, and I take OFFENSE to your insinuations! :p

[Olefin]

You know, it is just a game.
It's not meant to be a hardcore, realistic, survival simulator.

Nobody would have even started playing RPGs if D&D was "realistic", (with all that xenophobia, bigotry, religious persecution, disease, famine, warfare, primitive medicine, primitive science, fear of the unknown, fear of travellers, fear of loners, indentured servitude, unhealthy living conditions, even less healthy work conditions etc. etc. of the "real" medieval European world - no chance the real world of that time will let people game out their own personal empowerment fantasies)

Big difference between a game set in a world where you can literally shake hands with a demon (just make sure to count your fingers afterward) and talk with a dragon (better from a nice safe distance) while strolling along with a character than has enough hit points to survive the equivalent of ten or twelve sword thrusts to the heart and a game set in the real life world.

And before the slings and arrows come my way (not to mention fireballs and lightning bolts) I love D&D and if I could find a game would still play it today (have a very nice 15th level paladin with Holy Sword ready and raring to go, let alone his buddy, a seventh level monk)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

No insult to D&D is implied, AD&D 1st edition was my first RPG (in 1990) and I still have all my books - all I'm saying is GDW tried to make an interesting gameworld for people to play. So I feel that there's no need to worry over the realism factor if it's causing problems, particularly if it just makes things that much harder for the PCs without any fun for the Players.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I think though the tendency is to look at things that are supposed to model our world so closely and when they deviate we cry foul.

I for example don't like the "canon" of T2k (v1) so I change it, but not so much so that you'd not recognize it.

[Targan]

If you are going for realism, methanol production will not work as it does in the game. While it makes for interesting gameplay it is not possible given chemical and biological restrictions. I still cringe a bit whenever i see someone mention it in a discussion of large scale post apocalyptic logistics. I understand it counters canon, but to me it is actually less realistic than zombies.

That definitely bears repeating, Kato. Thanks for the reminder of those important discussions on methanol. In T2K ethanol is the only viable alcohol fuel option, and that most likely means a conflict with food production.

You know, it is just a game.
It's not meant to be a hardcore, realistic, survival simulator.

Nobody would have even started playing RPGs if D&D was "realistic", (with all that xenophobia, bigotry, religious persecution, disease, famine, warfare, primitive medicine, primitive science, fear of the unknown, fear of travellers, fear of loners, indentured servitude, unhealthy living conditions, even less healthy work conditions etc. etc. of the "real" medieval European world - no chance the real world of that time will let people game out their own personal empowerment fantasies)

Over the years I ended up playing more Harnmaster than D&D. And Harnmaster, if run as intended by the designers, is generally fairly depressing. For all the reasons outlined above by SSC.

[General Pain]

Anyone have any canon references to Belize?

Hi James.

I made these some years back, not canon at all but IMHO a good addon to running games down there...

http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/0-SOURCEBOOKS/

[General Pain]

if you are going for realism, methanol production will not work as it does in the game. While it makes for interesting gameplay it is not possible given chemical and biological restrictions. I still cringe a bit whenever i see someone mention it in a discussion of large scale post apocalyptic logistics. I understand it counters canon, but to me it is actually less realistic than zombies.

For more information see here http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=226

epic comment kato

[Targan]

It seems many of the people of Belize care so little for their cultural heritage that the deliberate destruction of Mayan pyramids for use as road fill has become fairly commonplace. I'm horrified:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-16/mayan-pyramid-razed-for-road-fill/4692894

[Olefin]

Its unfortunate that happened but humanity has a long history of similar things- look at what people did to the Coliseum in Rome - whats left is the shell - all the marble and much of the other stone in the building was used to build homes and fortifications after Rome fell.

Most of the Ancient Seven Wonders ended up being similarly pillaged over the years - look at the Pyramids in Egypt to see how much of the facing is left on them.

[pmulcahy11b]

It seems many of the people of Belize care so little for their cultural heritage that the deliberate destruction of Mayan pyramids for use as road fill has become fairly commonplace. I'm horrified:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-16/mayan-pyramid-razed-for-road-fill/4692894

Just utter, wanton, epic laziness.

[RN7]

I can't find any canon reference for Belize in my files, the nearest information about the area would be from the "Gateway to the Spanish Main" sourcebook which only really deals with Grenada. Chris Callahan's long lost Twilight 2000 page was dedicated to South America, particularly US forces in Panama which are quite detailed. There was also some information about the Panamanians, the Colombian Army, and a bunch of guerrilla outfits operating out of Colombia, Panama and Costa Rica. If anybody wants to have a look at it I can post it up.

Loren K. Wiseman's Merc 2000 Gazetteer has a nice scenario about a war between Guatemala and Belize.

Belize is an independent country supported by the British armed forces. Guatemala lays claim to the territory on the basis of several pre-19th Century historical treaties between Great Britain and Spain. The discovery of several large oil deposits beneath Belize is the main reason the country is of interest to the outside world, particularly the large global oil companies. The Belizean oil fields are currently controlled by Petro-Belize SA, owned by the government of Belize with several oil companies as major shareholders including the big British ones (Shell, BP). Those oil companies who don't have a share in Petro-Belize SA are supporting the Guatemalan's. The Guatemalan's attacked Belize believing the British wouldn't react. The British received advance information about it from insiders within the oil industry enabling British intelligence to reinforce its Belizean contingent using funds and resources from British based companies in the area. The Guatemalan attack soon stalled and for the past 18 months both sides have taken up see-saw attacks and counteroffensives.

Guatemala
Before the war, the Guatemalan Army was organized as an anti-guerrilla force, and split into more than three dozen separate battalions parcelled out among the country's 19 military districts. A few specialist units like the armoured company, the airborne battalion, or the special forces group rounded out the small force. As part of the preparations for war, six infantry brigades were formed by lumping three battalions together with a recon squadron and a few support assets. Mercenary troops were also used as cadres fort the brigade organizations, and also were used to fill in command positions in the battalions, rather than form separate units.

The Guatemalan Army has devoted four infantry brigades to the war, and also an armoured company, two special forces battalions (KAIBAL), three independent infantry companies and an airborne battalion. The rest of the Guatemalan Army is involved in anti-guerrilla operations in the interior of Guatemala. The Guatemalan Infantry Brigades are light infantry equipped with M16A2 or Galils, M60 MG's and 81mm mortars. Each brigade has a recon squadron with 4x Israeli made RBY Mk.1 armoured cars, and also an artillery group with 8x towed 105mm howitzers and 8x two and half ton trucks. The other units use the same small arms as the regular Army brigades. The armoured company has a HQ company with 1x M41 and 1x Jeep and three tanks platoons with 3x M41's each.

The Guatemalan Army is backed by the Air Force with two ground attack squadrons (8x A-37 each), a transport squadron (4x An-26 transports), and a helicopter force of 2x AH-1, 2x AH-6, 4x OH-6, 8x UH-1. The Guatemalan Navy also contributes nine SAR-33 type coastal patrol boats (three on the Atlantic), and 12 PBR type patrol boats on the Atlantic side of the continental divide.

Belize
The Belizean side consists on a British infantry regiment (British and European mercenaries), two local Belizean Brigades, and a mercenary air mobile battalion (Americans). The British and Belizean units use British Army small arms; L85/86's, FN FAL's, Sterling SMG, L7A1 GPMG's, 60mm mortars and Carl Gustav RCL. The airmobile battalion use American M16A2's, M60's, Dragon PIP, M214 6-pacs, Mk-19 GL and Stingers. The British Infantry Regiment has five infantry companies and uses Land Rovers, and is backed by a recon squadron with 6x Fox, a weapons platoon with 4x FV432 with 81mm mortars, an anti-tank platoon with 4x Spartans with Milan's and an air defence platoon with 4x towed Bofors 40mm AA guns and 1 ton trucks. The two Belizean brigades have three infantry companies and also have a weapons platoon, an anti-tank platoon and an air defence platoon each.

The Belizean's are backed by a force RAF aircraft (8x Harrier, 2x Chinooks) and 4x British Army Lynx's. The airmobile battalion also has 20 helicopters (2x AH-1, 2x OH-58, 16x UH-60). Belize also has four PBR-type patrol boats for river and coastal operations, as well as another six Napco raider river patrol boats co-opted from the coast guard. Belize pro-British sponsors are rumoured to have supplied two American experimental XM23AACVsfor use in riverine operations.

[Olefin]

If you look at Belize you have the following there for sure in the 90's

BATSUB - British Army Training Support Unit Belize

- 70 soldiers acting as trainers for both the British Army and the Belize Defense Force

- 25 Flight Army Air Corps - two Westland Gazelles and two Westland Lynx - which included a detachment of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (REME0 to perform maintenance - based at the Philip S.W. Goldson International Airport in Belize

the British battalion and the Harriers left in 1994 but with the V1 timeline you could see them still there - or possibly re-deployed as the war started if the Soviets tried to destabilize the country with guerrillas as they did in Africa

also could be soldiers there as well going thru the training that got stranded there after the TDM and the strikes on Britain at least until they could arrange transport to get home

[lordroel]

the British battalion and the Harriers left in 1994 but with the V1 timeline you could see them still there - or possibly re-deployed as the war started if the Soviets tried to destabilize the country with guerrillas as they did in Africa

Could a Territorial Army of the British Army not be deployed in Belize freeing the regular army battalion for combat use.

[Rainbow Six]

Could a Territorial Army of the British Army not be deployed in Belize freeing the regular army battalion for combat use.

Short answer is yes.

Problem is where said TA Battalion would come from. In the V1 timeline the TA Battalions were tasked with either reinforcing the British Army of the Rhine or United Kingdom Home Defence. There were no "spare" TA Battalions available so to redeploy one to Belize would mean pulling it from one of those two areas.

You'd have to ask the question as to how important Belize would be in the overall scheme of things - would it warrant pulling a Battalion from Germany or the UK? I doubt it very much - best case would probably be a reinforced Company.

In the V2 timeline there would have been even less TA Battalions.

(Obviously the above is based on RL TA deployments - if you opt to have hypothetical regular / TA Battalions raised during the course of the War in your T2K world it becomes more possible)

[Olefin]

Short answer is yes.

Problem is where said TA Battalion would come from. In the V1 timeline the TA Battalions were tasked with either reinforcing the British Army of the Rhine or United Kingdom Home Defence. There were no "spare" TA Battalions available so to redeploy one to Belize would mean pulling it from one of those two areas.

You'd have to ask the question as to how important Belize would be in the overall scheme of things - would it warrant pulling a Battalion from Germany or the UK? I doubt it very much - best case would probably be a reinforced Company.

In the V2 timeline there would have been even less TA Battalions.

(Obviously the above is based on RL TA deployments - if you opt to have hypothetical regular / TA Battalions raised during the course of the War in your T2K world it becomes more possible)

I would think that if there was a battalion there it would have been one going thru jungle training and it got stuck there in place having to defend Belize when transport collapsed - much like the TA that got sent to the Falklands ended up sitting out the war and afterward there

[Rainbow Six]

I would think that if there was a battalion there it would have been one going thru jungle training and it got stuck there in place having to defend Belize when transport collapsed - much like the TA that got sent to the Falklands ended up sitting out the war and afterward there

Do you mean a Regular or TA Battalion?

If Regular it's possible, although I have my doubts as to whether a Regular Battalion would be sent for jungle training if war clouds are gathering in Europe.

The chances of a TA Battalion being sent for jungle training are slim to nil (unless you are butterflying some major changes to the British Army's organisation / structure). As I said, TA Battalions all had a designated role and jungle warfare didn't feature in that.

I'd forgotten about the TA being sent to the Falklands. SO that's even less Battalions to go around. I'd also suggest it's likely that at least one TA Battalion may have gone to Cyprus (Cyprus would have been the most logical place for the Infantry Battalion the MEFF (1/KOSB) to have come from. I am doing all of this from memory but iirc in a V1 timeline there were usually two Battalions in Cyprus (not including UN forces), one of which was designated as the standby Battalion for any Middle Eastern deployment. So if 1/KOSB did come from Cyprus it's possible a TA Battalion may have backfilled for them.)

[Olefin]

You are right on the TA battalion as to jungle training - so perhaps all that was there was the BATSUB guys including the helo flight (plus of course the Belize Defense Force)

[Rainbow Six]

I think any large scale British presence depends on whether or not you have the 1990's era withdrawals happening in your game world. If you don't and you posit that the UK maintains a Regular Army Battalion in country right up to the start of the Twilight War it's feasible that said Battalion then stayed in situ - whilst it could be moved prior to Autumn 1997 you could argue there weren't the available logistics to do so and then post autumn 1997 it simply isn't possible.

IIRC the British Army orbat in the NATO Vehicle Guide and the official UK Survivor's Guide omits a number of Infantry Battalions - from memory several Guards Battalions and 1st Battalion Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters - so possible one of them was the resident Belize Battalion

Or you could go with the Regular Battalion being replaced with a TA Battalion as a backfill measure. As I said earlier, I think that's perfectly plausible, but the powers that be in London would have to accept that would leave a shortfall elsewhere - so you're robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If you posit that the 1990's withdrawals did take place - e.g. if Belize and Guatemala reached an accord as they did IRL - I can't see any way that there would be any sort of subsequent reinforcement at the start of the War if the Guatemalans started sabre rattling. Given geopolitical considerations elsewhere, once the resident Battalion is gone it would stay gone - troops would be badly needed elsewhere. You might see a token force - as I said earlier, some sort of reinforced Infantry Company, Regular or TA - to augment the BATSUB staff but that would be it.

[General Pain]

General Pain did a Belize guide once...i tried to upload it here but it failed. Search his hisotry...

yup - weirdly enough it has gone missing....

I will try to find it when I'm home from work btw

-GP

it used to be at the site...

www.thebigbookofwar.50megs.com

[Raellus]

Does anyone know how one would become an instructor at BATSUB (i.e. military career-path)? Working on PC backstory and skills and would like to know. I've exhausted my GoogleFu and I'm hoping someone here has some info to share.

-

[Rainbow Six]

To the best of my knowledge given the very, very small number of instructors the permanent staff are most likely going to have been people who have previously attended the school as students and impressed the staff with their performance at that time so been 'invited' back as an instructor at a later time.

So I would say you're looking at a former student who graduated the Jungle Warfare School with high / top marks earlier in their career and has one of the permanent staff as one of their contacts. In theory they could be from pretty much any Regiment or Corps but most likely to be Infantry, Engineers, Artillery, or Signals (the Royal Armoured Corps didn't have much demand for the Jungle Warfare School but it's not impossible). Another option would probably be the RAF Regiment.

(I presume you know that BATSUB as it is only came into being in the mid 1990's so may not exist in a T2K timeline)

[Mahatatain]

The base/structure may have become "BATSUB" in the mid-90s but my understanding is there have been British forces in Belize for a lot longer than that. My guess is that BATSUB is just a name change to what was already there.

[Rainbow Six]

The base/structure may have become "BATSUB" in the mid-90s but my understanding is there have been British forces in Belize for a lot longer than that. My guess is that BATSUB is just a name change to what was already there.

Prior to that British Forces Belize (BFB) was actually quite a bit larger (relatively speaking). The permanent garrison fluctuated between an Infantry Company and a full Battalion dependent on the political situation with Guatemala at any given time with support from 1 to 2 Flights of RAF Harriers (so 4 to 8 jets) and various support elements.

They were there to essentially guarantee Belize's security. I believe it was downsized in the early 90's when the threat from Guatemala was deemed to have lessened. There's a really good book called Phoenix Squadron by a guy called Rowland White which details a previous Guatemalan incursion in the 70's which was ended by the flying in of a Company of Grenadier Guards and the sudden appearance of Buccaneers from HMS Ark Royal overhead.

Essentially though you are correct, BATSUB was a name change for BFB. I should have been clearer about that. But also a significant downsizing.

[Mahatatain]

Thanks for the info.

Wikipedia has the following sourced info which shows how large the British forces in Belize were in 1989:

British Army Forces in Belize

1st Battalion, Welsh Guards, on six month roulement.
1 x Armoured Reconnaissance Troop, six month roulement.
1 x Field Battery, Royal Artillery, six month roulement.
1 x Field Squadron, Royal Engineers, six month roulement.
24th Squadron, Royal Corps of Transport.
78th Ordnance Company, Royal Army Ordnance Corps.
No. 25 Flight, Army Air Corps.

Royal Navy Forces – Belize:

West Indies Guard Ship, as needed.

Royal Air Force – Belize:

No. 1417 Flight RAF
No. 1563 Flight RAF
1 Air Defence Flight, RAF Regiment, six month roulement.

Source: Ivelaw Lloyd, Griffith (1993). The Quest for Security in the Caribbean

That is quite a lot of troops.

[Rainbow Six]

Yep. Whereas according to the British Army's website BATSUB currently has twelve permanent staff

https://www.army.mod.uk/deployments/belize/

Quite a difference...

[Mahatatain]

My presumption was that none of the British forces assigned to BATSUB counted as permanent staff and that those 12 mentioned were former forces personnel who had been recruited back as (technically) civilian employees (as you suggested previously).

That's just a guess though.

[Rainbow Six]

My presumption was that none of the British forces assigned to BATSUB counted as permanent staff and that those 12 mentioned were former forces personnel who had been recruited back as (technically) civilian employees (as you suggested previously).

That's just a guess though.
i don't think I suggested anywhere that BATSUB would be hiring former personnel as civilian contractors. When I suggested to Rae that a former student might be invited back as an instructor i meant as an active duty member of the British Army.

Again, sorry if that wasn't clear but in any event I think this thread is drifting off on tangents unrelated to Rae's question, which i think was essentially possible back stories for a character who had prior service as an instructor at a British Army jungle warfare school.

[Mahatatain]

i don't think I suggested anywhere that BATSUB would be hiring former personnel as civilian contractors. When I suggested to Rae that a former student might be invited back as an instructor i meant as an active duty member of the British Army.

Again, sorry if that wasn't clear but in any event I think this thread is drifting off on tangents unrelated to Rae's question, which i think was essentially possible back stories for a character who had prior service as an instructor at a British Army jungle warfare school.
Sorry, I was interpreting "invited back" as "after finishing their military service" but that was clearly not what you meant. Sorry for any confusion.