TW2k13

[Medic]

Hi ya, guys.

I used to be pretty active on the 93GS forums until they died down, and I asked if people would be up to creating rules for air combat for the 2k13 ruleset so they could be used for non-Twilight scenarios. I'm now asking here, because nobody replied to the thread before the forum shut down. And yes, the rules would be purely pro bono, since I do not have a stash of money for buying the rights for the ruleset.

Anyone interested?

[Targan]

It sounds like a great idea. Big job though. Has any thought been given to perhaps adapting all or part of the old T2K air combat rules? Admittedly they are themselves just an adaption of the 1st ed vehicle rules.

[Medic]

It sounds like a great idea. Big job though. Has any thought been given to perhaps adapting all or part of the old T2K air combat rules? Admittedly they are themselves just an adaption of the 1st ed vehicle rules.

I was thinking of adapting the 2nd edition rules for the 2013, but they would require some modification, for an example for V/VSTOL aircrafts like Harrier or Osprey as well as adding a huge selection of real world weaponry in to the mix.

And of course this would pave the way for something I've been pondering about ever since I played Deus Ex - were not very far from actual cybernetic enhancements. Rather, there's already some things like iLimb that could be counted as primitive cybernetics, and I've planned on creating a set of rules for them as well.

[Medic]

It sounds like a great idea. Big job though. Has any thought been given to perhaps adapting all or part of the old T2K air combat rules? Admittedly they are themselves just an adaption of the 1st ed vehicle rules.

I already replied to this, but apparently the forums ate it so here I go again.

I've been contemplating about modifying the 2nd edition Nautical/Aviation Handbook's rules for 2k13, adding improved rules for S/VTOL aircraft and such (which would also work, if I continue with my plan to create rules for cybernetics on the Reflex-system, since honestly speaking, one could say we already have some minor cybernetics IRL (the iLimb hand prosthesis, for an example) - I've been playing a lot of Deus Ex: Human Revolution lately :D). Of course, converting weapon rules and creating vehicular templates require a lot of work, so if there's anyone willing to take on part of the burden, I'd be happy to hand it out.

Also, I've got medical rules upgrade for Reflex-system in the works, partially due to my civvie profession/MOS. While the original rules are good, I kind of wanted to create a more thorough Stage III ruleset for all things medical, should people wish to have an even more realistic model for treating the wounds and illnesses.

[kota1342000]

Conversion from version 2 to 3 is kind of a hot button topic as far as Im concerned. Ive been looking at some of the heavy weapon stats from t2013 and they arent that different from the version 2 data. For heavy and large caliber weapons, I think we should create a couple more range bands past extreme.
...this was a quick train of thought I had when going through the basic rules. Ive been working on a huge bunch of characters lately and havent followed up yet.

And I LOVE the idea of stage III medical rules, having been an EMT Im actually kind of drooling to see what you come up with :D

[Tegyrius]

Conversion from version 2 to 3 is kind of a hot button topic as far as Im concerned. Ive been looking at some of the heavy weapon stats from t2013 and they arent that different from the version 2 data. For heavy and large caliber weapons, I think we should create a couple more range bands past extreme.

Already done. Page 43:

http://www.de-fenestra.com/personal/2013/Drivers_Guide_Czech_Your_Engine.pdf

- C.

[Medic]

Like Clayton said, the range bands have been expanded enough (and practically can be expanded even further to allow the use of AIM-54 Phoenix missiles, if necessary).

As for the medical rules, I'm an ex-EMT/Paramedic with about eleven years of on-the-job experience, currently undergoing the last steps of my Registered Nurse education and also serving as a combat medic in the Finnish Army territorial unit. The rules are still under work, but I can post the preliminary version for discussion and brainstorming here, if people want.

[kota1342000]

MUAHHH-HAA-HAAA-HAAAAAAA
Outstanding. I was trying to think for names for the longer range bands...EX+1 and such works just as well.
Thanks much! :D

[Tegyrius]

It's not glamorous but it gets the job done. It also logically extends to BVR to facilitate air-to-air and air-to-ground combat, as per the original topic.

- C.

[Medic]

So, as promised, some Expanded Rules (to begin with - more coming up later):

Straight from my blog (which I know I should update again)

Close combat: Throw
There are three ways to initiate a throwing attack, all which require the grapple-qualification for HtH - by blocking an incoming melee attack (either unarmed or with a small weapon like a knife or baton), by using an attack targetted at the feet of the enemy (leg sweep or similar) or from a grapple.
The leg sweep is a aimed called attack, targetted at the feet of the opponent, thus entailing a roll of Hand-to-hand [STR-1 or CDN-1]. If successful, the target must, like with the Diving Strike attacks, make a successful Muscle-check with the penalty of MoS+1 of the attacker or be rendered prone.
Throwing from a block, the defender makes a blocking action according to the rules and an attack action directly after that. If successful, the original attacker must make Muscle-check against the MoS+1 of the attack roll against him or go prone.
Throwing from a grapple works as the attack in the Control-rules (page 151). It differs from the other throwing attacks in one thing, however. The character throwing can opt to maintain the grapple on his target, which requires a Hand-to-hand [CDN] -check. If the check for maintaining the grapple is unsuccessful, the grip on the thrown character is lost along with all the accumulated control points.
In all cases, a successful throwing attack causes impact damage equal to half of the MoS of the attack roll (though the surface, one is thrown on can either apply bonuses or reduction to the damage - the gamemaster has final say on this) to a randomly selected hit location. A crew helmet or similar armor will protect against the damage done by this.
With Grapple-qualification, the thrown character can, however, attempt a Hand-to-hand [CDN] check with penalty equal to the MoS of the attack to break his fall - with success, he will still become prone but takes no damage. If MoS surpasses the MoS of the attack by 5, the character can opt to make an ukemi and roll back on his feet.

Also, a Stage III disadvantage:

Obscure blood type
Value: 1 or 3 points
Special: While most humans have either A, B, AB or O (plus either one of the rh-factors, positive or negative) bloodtype, you have one of the 32 more obscure types, which makes you unable to recieve blood from donors outside your own blood type - or rather, making you highly susceptible to adverse effects of blood transfusion, if you do. It's not bad, unless you get shot. Of course, not knowing about this would be even more dangerous (the three point option).

[kota1342000]

Very cool Medic. Still haven't gotten started on the heavy weapons conversions, started a campaign for some friends using Reflex rules but 1.0 storyline. The group has just started the Last Submarine.

[Medic]

The blood type disadvantage will be part of the expanded medical rules, I'm brewing.

[Odie]

I am not familiar with the new T2k rules. Do they still have the hit point system they have in the earlier versions. I love they idea of hit points for body locations.

[Odie]

Ok I bought a copy of 2013. Just a quick scan through it..... I am very impressed. Lots of detail.... I love lots of detail. The career paths are fantastic and have some that I thought were missing. Going to dive deeper tonight but this might just be my favorite version.

[Medic]

Ok I bought a copy of 2013. Just a quick scan through it..... I am very impressed. Lots of detail.... I love lots of detail. The career paths are fantastic and have some that I thought were missing. Going to dive deeper tonight but this might just be my favorite version.

Yes, the amount of detail you can give to your characters with 2013 is awesome. All we need is people expanding those details in every possible direction and we have a very flexible system in our hands.

For playing PBeM campaigns, though, there is one downside at the moment. So far, I have not been able to conjure up a way to do battles without excessive amount of effort, though it might be my inexperience with the system that hampers the action a bit - I have not had the chance to play TW2013 as PnP so far, with my RP buddies living about 700km from me nowadays and I being too busy and too lazy to actively find a new group.

[Legbreaker]

...I being too busy and too lazy to actively find a new group.

Check out www.nearbygamers.com then. May not be anyone close at the moment, but the more people who register, the better the database will be.

[Medic]

Check out www.nearbygamers.com then. May not be anyone close at the moment, but the more people who register, the better the database will be.

I checked the database and there was two people within reasonable range of me, who were registered. The third nearest was about an hour drive away. Insuppose I could register there, but...

[Legbreaker]

I suppose I could register there, but...

Go on, get off your lazy butt and do it! ;)

For that matter, EVERYONE should do it!

[Medic]

Go on, get off your lazy butt and do it! ;)

For that matter, EVERYONE should do it!

Still sitting on my lazy butt but I did it...:D

[Mahatatain]

For playing PBeM campaigns, though, there is one downside at the moment. So far, I have not been able to conjure up a way to do battles without excessive amount of effort, though it might be my inexperience with the system that hampers the action a bit - I have not had the chance to play TW2013 as PnP so far, with my RP buddies living about 700km from me nowadays and I being too busy and too lazy to actively find a new group.
I've just started a play test with three friends to see if we can make the T2k13 initiative system work in a PBeM format. Our basic starting point is that players are declaring a full EoF or Ticks in one post but we're still in the very early stages of this play test.

I'll let you know what happens and if we come to a set of house rules that seem to work then I'll post them here.

On a separate note www.nearbygamers.com is certainly worth joining. I found one of my current FTF group on there.

[Medic]

I've created a table for Air-to-Surface and Surface-to-Air ranges, though it would seem, the iPad doesn't allow me to attach it to the message. I'll post it from my tabletop in the morning, but before I do that, I'll give you the altitude bands that turn the air combat in to 3D.

At the bottom, we have Nap-of-Earth from 1 to 25 meters, followed by Very Low (25-100), Low (100-500), Medium (500-1200), High (1200-5000), Very High (5000-12000) and Extreme (12000-20000). The table essentially cross references the altitude and horisontal range for actual firing range. No, I did not use 3D-heometry for calculating the exact ranges, but if someone wants to do that, be my guest. :p

Comments are welcome, especially after the table has been posted.

[Medic]

Okay, now I deliver the tables I promised.

The Tables 1a and 1b are self-explanatory - just extending the range bands to 96km, so those wishing to use long range missiles can actually do just that. Of course, there's practically very few weapons that can fire beyond that, but hey, you can add one more band if you want, or two, it's simple.

Table 2 is a bit more complex. Practically, I took the altitude bands and made a comparison chart between them. If you are firing from ground at an airplane, you use Nap-of-Earth (NoE) for altitude. If you wonder, why there's +5 range bands to fire at a low flying plane, when you are in a low flying plane yourself, it is due the altitude variation within the said altitude band.

The Tables 3a, b, c, d and e are also pretty self-explanatory. However, I'll clarify a couple of terms here.

Any Cargo hit in a plane with no provisions for cargo is considered Fuel hit. The normal rules for catching fire apply. This does not necessarily mean the vehicle is destroyed - modern combat aircraft use so-called self-sealing fuel tanks, which reduces the probability of the plane being destroyed by the fire drastically. The rules for a self-sealing fuel tank are still in the works (and I won't mind, if you guys want to chip in as well).

The Fireball-result on the Table 3e: Major Wing/Rotor Damage is a catastrophic kill on the vehicle. It doesn't necessarily mean the movie-type explosion of the craft, but it means, there is enough widespread structural damage to destroy the vehicle. Anyone inside the vehicle is required to make a Difficult:OODA -check to escape the vehicle.

If unsuccessful, the character recieves 1d6 burn injuries of Damage 6 at random locations. A critical failure (MoF 5+) means, the character is killed (so, if your campaign uses Survival Points, this is a pretty good time to use at least one).

If succesful, the next thing to worry is whether the character happens to have some means of making it down to the surface below without making too big hole/puddle on the said surface. Parachute or ejection seat will help in the matter greatly. Of course, if you are flying Nap-of-Earth when this happens, you might actually survive without a parachute (since your parachute won't open in time anyway) - it depends where and what you fall on/in.

[Medic]

So, here's the basic ruleset for air combat, though it is still preliminary and requires comments.

There are three alternatives to how air combat is initiated. At the maximum detection range of either party involved, the one with longer maximum detection range makes the first attempt to detect the enemy by using any sensors available (Computing for radar systems, Awareness for Mk.1 Eyeball with bonuses from high-tech equipment). If the detection is not successful, the opponents will close in making detection rolls until either one successfully detects the other one.

If successful, he will gain the upper hand and can choose whether to close in, evade or, if equipped with suitable weapons for that range, make a stand-off attack. This requires achieving a lock on the intended target, a function of Gunnery. If the weapon in question is a guided weapon, it will require the Guided-qualification.

If no stand-off attack is made, a normal exchange of fire begins and the involved parties start to keep track on Advantage points, very much similar to the Control, used with Grappling attacks in hand-to-hand combat. Both parties make Pilot-checks to gain points and the one with more points is considered having the upper hand.

To initiate the Advantage, one must Engage. An Aviation-check is made and the Engaging party receives Advantage Points equal to the margin of success. A zero means, no advantage is gained.

Increasing Advantage (minimum Advantage 1) is the function of Aviation-skill with appropriate qualification (most likely Performance, if flying a fighter). The margin of success is added to the Advantage Points.

Tailing (minimum Advantage 2) requires an Aviation-check, receiving half the current Advantage as bonus to the roll. If successful, the target receives half the margin of success of threat conditions.

Attack (minimum Advantage 4) is maneuvering in to a suitable angle of attack from which to fire at the enemy with a suitable weapon. An Aviation roll is made, adding the current Advantage as a bonus to the skill check. If successful, the Attacker gets to fire one forward firing weapon at the Defender with a suitable weapon check.

Escape is maneuvering to evade the enemy and to get out of his field of fire. A contested Aviation roll is made, adding the current Advantage as a bonus (if any). The enemy loses Advantage points equal to the margin of success.

[pmulcahy11b]

Medic, do you own the wargame Airwar?

[Medic]

Medic, do you own the wargame Airwar?

No, I don't. Why?

[Medic]

Another addition to the medical rules on the way: Cardiac condition. This will add a coronary illness to the list of disadvantages as well as a ruleset for treating it - not all the medical conditions are the result of combat or other external causes and the cardiac problems won't go away at the outbreak of Twilight War.

[Medic]

With an PBP Tw:2013 campaign in planning, I thought I'd post this particular item here. Comments?

M32 MGL: The Multiple Grenade Launcher, originally designed by Milkor (designated Milkor MGL-140), the M32 was adopted by U.S.Marine Corps among others. It is fed by a 6-round spring-loaded cylinder that needs to be rewinded when the weapon is reloaded. To reload the M32, one needs to use a 2-tick action to pivot the weapon open, 5-tick action per round loaded (includes rewinding the cylinder for each round) and a 2-tick action to pivot the weapon in to closed position (thus, fully loading it with six rounds takes 34 ticks). The weapon includes a non-magnifying reflex sight (factored in to the speed), telescopic stock, vertical foregrip and three rails for mounting other paraphernelia.

Caliber: 40x46mm
Capacity: 6 (cy)
Range: M/O
ROF: S/B3
Speed: 4/8/11
Recoil: 7
Bulk: 4
Wgt: 5.3 kg
BV: GG3,000
SP: $6,000

[Medic]

Hi guys. Has been a while since I actually wrote anything around here - partially due to the fact, I've been busy as hell with RL, our first baby being on her way in about a month. However, I managed to conjure up time for a little updating, which I hope you will comment on.

Gentlemen (and ladies if any are present), I present the corporate security and police special unit (SWAT and Bomb Squad) careers.

[Cdnwolf]

Great work thanks...

[Tnchi2a]

Ok looking to find if someone has or wants to come up with stats for the MBT/IFV/CFV for the reflex system.
While I dislike the story I love the system and would like to run some games in it, but I don't have the time to do all the research (Going back to school at 40 yeah me:) )
I am willing to put up what I have and contribute if people want to do it here also.
So just testing the water to see if anyone wants to do this or already has.:D

[Medic]

Which one? I've dabbled with creating stats for the Reflex before. I'm no Tegyrius, but I think I could give it a shot.

[Tnchi2a]

Which one? I've dabbled with creating stats for the Reflex before. I'm no Tegyrius, but I think I could give it a shot.

So have I, And was just trying to see if we could get all the dabbling in one place.

We could also post links to Official/Unofficial Stats on the internet.
http://www.de-fenestra.com/personal/2013/2013wiki/doku.php

[Medic]

I have had air combat rules for Reflex under works for some time as well as supplemental medical rules. They should be somewhere around this forum - I can dig up the right thread eventually. I have also done some work on my native Finnish military for the Reflex. Throw me a PM with details of what vehicles you want me to take a look at and I'll give it a shot.

[Medic]

I would suggest merging this thread with this one: http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=55151&highlight=Tw2013#post55151

[Tnchi2a]

well Medic it looks like were the only ones around here who like 2013 :confused:

[Medic]

There are others. Tegyrius, for an example, has written some official material for it, not to mention the Czech sourcebook and vehicle compendium.

[Tegyrius]

Hm?

I think my stuff's already been linked in this thread. Not sure what else I can contribute without a request for a specific model of vehicle or weapon. "MBT/IFV/CFV" doesn't tell me much.

- C.

[Tnchi2a]

was not directed at anyone just seems that 2013 gets the shaft alot because of the story and not the game itself.
and yes i think i linked your stuff earlier in the thread :D

[Medic]

And my point in mentioning Teg was to note, we're not the only ones. I believe, there are others as well, who like the newer edition.

As I tried to say in my first post for the thread, we can figure stuff out together and figure out, where to post them. Throw me ideas and we can discuss them.

[unkated]

but before I do that, I'll give you the altitude bands that turn the air combat in to 3D.


The table essentially cross references the altitude and horizontal range for actual firing range.

No, I did not use 3D-geometry for calculating the exact ranges, but if someone wants to do that, be my guest. :p


A quick rule of thumb for 3D range (we use it for Fighting Wings, WW2 aerial combat):

Take the horizontal and vertical ranges, and add half of the smaller to the larger. Doesn't matter which is larger (hypotenuse is a hypotenuse).

For example, range to a helicopter 3000 m away and 2000 m up is treated as 4000m (3000 + 2000/2).

(The math answer is 3605.551 m).

And if that same helicopter closes to almost overhead... 300 m away and the same 2000 m up is treated as 2150 m (300/2 + 2000) = 2150

(the math answer is 2022.375 m)

It's an approximation, but it's within 10-12% accurate, which isn't bad for something you can do in your head.

Uncle Ted

[Medic]

A quick rule of thumb for 3D range (we use it for Fighting Wings, WW2 aerial combat):

Take the horizontal and vertical ranges, and add half of the smaller to the larger. Doesn't matter which is larger (hypotenuse is a hypotenuse).

For example, range to a helicopter 3000 m away and 2000 m up is treated as 4000m (3000 + 2000/2).

(The math answer is 3605.551 m).

And if that same helicopter closes to almost overhead... 300 m away and the same 2000 m up is treated as 2150 m (300/2 + 2000) = 2150

(the math answer is 2022.375 m)

It's an approximation, but it's within 10-12% accurate, which isn't bad for something you can do in your head.

Uncle Ted

This would indeed streamline the rules and drop the need for a conversion table. It would also remove several altitude bands, effectively leaving NOE, Low, Medium and High, I suppose.

Thank you for the idea. I was clearly approaching this in a far too complex manner.

[Targan]

As requested by Medic, I've merged his thread TW2k13 with the Reflex vehicle stats thread.

[Medic]

Thank you. :)

[Medic]

While the Reflex has rules for extreme weather, people wanting even more accurate rules for extremely cold weather (like nuclear winter) might enjoy this. This is work in progress so suggestions are taken.

Extreme hot and hot weather clothes protect down to +10 degrees centigrade, mild down to +0, cold down to -20 and extreme cold to -35. Weather one grade worse without proper shelter causes the character to get chilly and sleeping properly will be impossible. Inactivity counts as light work, meaning just being does not increase fatigue but won't decrease it either. Weather two grades or more beyond the threshold causes all activity without shelter to be heavy work in terms of fatigue and character accumulates fatigue twice as fast as he normally would (that is, heavy work causes fatigue every 30 minutes).

Upon reaching critical fatigue, the character becomes malignantly hypothermic, causin him to lose consciousness. Unless someone intervenes and brings the character in to a shelter and begins a slow warming up of the character, the character will perish due to the basic functions of the body failing. To warm up a malignantly hypothermic character properly requires a Medicine (COG, TN+2 or TN if character had Intensive Care qualification). Failure causes the character to enter shock and requires resuscitation to keep the character among the living.

Clothing can be layered, however. Two sets of hot weather clothing work as mild, two mild as cold and a set of mild and cold weather clothing as extreme cold weather clothing, but cause a -2 to any check requiring physical action due to stiff joints.

Extreme hot weather rules coming up, once I figure them out. Any comments?

[Cdnwolf]

While the Reflex has rules for extreme weather, people wanting even more accurate rules for extremely cold weather (like nuclear winter) might enjoy this. This is work in progress so suggestions are taken.

Extreme hot and hot weather clothes protect down to +10 degrees centigrade, mild down to +0, cold down to -20 and extreme cold to -35. Weather one grade worse without proper shelter causes the character to get chilly and sleeping properly will be impossible. Inactivity counts as light work, meaning just being does not increase fatigue but won't decrease it either. Weather two grades or more beyond the threshold causes all activity without shelter to be heavy work in terms of fatigue and character accumulates fatigue twice as fast as he normally would (that is, heavy work causes fatigue every 30 minutes).

Upon reaching critical fatigue, the character becomes malignantly hypothermic, causin him to lose consciousness. Unless someone intervenes and brings the character in to a shelter and begins a slow warming up of the character, the character will perish due to the basic functions of the body failing. To warm up a malignantly hypothermic character properly requires a Medicine (COG, TN+2 or TN if character had Intensive Care qualification). Failure causes the character to enter shock and requires resuscitation to keep the character among the living.

Clothing can be layered, however. Two sets of hot weather clothing work as mild, two mild as cold and a set of mild and cold weather clothing as extreme cold weather clothing, but cause a -2 to any check requiring physical action due to stiff joints.

Extreme hot weather rules coming up, once I figure them out. Any comments?

What would be the effect of extreme cold on weapons? Also can you do one for high altitude fighting. I am looking to have some battles in the Alp regions.

[Medic]

I would raise the maintenance requirements for a weapon in cold and extreme cold to two- and threefold respectively. It's even worse if the weather changes rapidly - I've seen the Finnish assault rifle freeze over so badly, even the famous AK-style action failed as the whole mechanics had frozen shut. Then again, the wepon had been fired the day before and to ease the cleaning, the weapon had been oiled with gun grease. If a extremely cold weather, a remedy for this ailment is to use lamp petrol for lubrication rather than oil.

As for the high altitude - I'll have to do some research.

[.45cultist]

well Medic it looks like were the only ones around here who like 2013 :confused:

It can grow on you.;) I'm trying it again, my T2K2.2 work stems from overlap with Dark Conspiracy.

[swaghauler]

I would raise the maintenance requirements for a weapon in cold and extreme cold to two- and threefold respectively. It's even worse if the weather changes rapidly - I've seen the Finnish assault rifle freeze over so badly, even the famous AK-style action failed as the whole mechanics had frozen shut. Then again, the wepon had been fired the day before and to ease the cleaning, the weapon had been oiled with gun grease. If a extremely cold weather, a remedy for this ailment is to use lamp petrol for lubrication rather than oil.

As for the high altitude - I'll have to do some research.

Altitude Sickness has all the same effects as the Flu. It's onset will generally occur in 2 to 3 days after arrival at or above 5K feet (I would subtract CON from 11 and divide by 2 for onset) and CAN be avoided by an Ave:CON roll. Fatigue or wounds will aggravate the onset of Altitude Sickness.

Snow Blindness is a result of not having eye protection on bright snowy environments. You can manufacture a set of snow goggles. this is an easy task for any experienced Mountaineer or Arctic Survival Expert. I would treat snow blindness as a slow loss of vision. Using the Version 2.2 rules; you would start at light level 2 and it would increase by 1 level after each hour. You could resist this with a CON+INT roll. A successful roll would mean NO increase in the light level multiplier. If you reach level 5; Your blind (at least temporarily).

At high altitude, it will take much longer to produce fire, boil water, etc... due to the reduced oxygen content. Explosions will have a reduced Blast or Concussion effect but Frag will travel much further (because of reduced air density). Flamethrowers will have reduced range (due to the altitude's effect on the pressure in the cylinder and fuel stream). Batteries will also be affected. They will produce less power and die sooner (both altitude and cold will cause this due to a slowing of the battery's power producing/storing reaction). Most US equipment is proofed for -25F and will function at altitude.

[Medic]

Swaghauler pretty much nailed it. I suppose, I need to write a more detailed ruleset for diving then, being a recreational diver myself and having done my nursing school thesis on dive related injuries.

[swaghauler]

Nothing like a little "Euphoria of the Deep," or a touch of "The Bends." Open Water Advanced since the early 90's. Did my Cold Weather Mountain Training with the 10th in Upstate Maine. It was F**king COLD too.

[cavtroop]

There are others. Tegyrius, for an example, has written some official material for it, not to mention the Czech sourcebook and vehicle compendium.

I'm one of them! I'm on record here as loving T:2k13. I just don't have anyone to play a game with :(

[swaghauler]

What would be the effect of extreme cold on weapons? Also can you do one for high altitude fighting. I am looking to have some battles in the Alp regions.

In addition to what I posted before; You must consider range effects based on altitude. The thin air will allow an increase in range with most long arms (pistol ammo will not have an appreciable effect in 2013 range band rules). In version 2.2, you should allow 2 meters for pistols, 5 meters for SMGs and shotguns, and 10 meters for rifles. It is for this reason that most world's record shots are at altitude.

Vehicles will suffer a loss of top speed and acceleration above 10K feet. For every 1000 feet in elevation (starting at 10k ft) reduce the vehicle's acceleration and top speed by 10%. Two stroke motors (sorry all you Harley Riders and my fellow truckers) are particularly vulnerable due to the engine needing to compress the fuel for proper ignition. My Pete was breathing really hard when I crossed the Rockies and I was only at about 5500 feet.

You must also consider what happens to the human body at altitudes above 10k feet. The air is so thin at this altitude that you should add 1 level of Fatigue for anyone not acclimated to this altitude. If your fighting in Peru; remember that above 14K feet, you must add another level of Fatigue for anyone not acclimated to the altitude. Above 14K, you are in the "Danger Zone." Prolonged exposure to altitudes above 14k feet can result in all kinds of cardiac and respiratory problems. The UV radiation at this altitude is also very potent. If your fighting on K2; Altitudes above 20K are known as "The Death Zone." You are literally dying from O2 starvation. Every day you are above 20K feet without bottled O2 to breath, make a roll verses your CON. A failed roll equals the loss of 1 point of CON. The difficulty of this roll should be based on your level of exertion. When your CON hits 0, YOU DIE.
Acclimation takes about 2 weeks of exposure to the altitude in question. You cannot acclimate to 20K+ foot altitudes.

[unkated]

What would be the effect of extreme cold on weapons? Also can you do one for high altitude fighting. I am looking to have some battles in the Alp regions.

Not quite. An insignificant difference, perhaps, but I think you'll find the operational characteristics of the M-16 indicate that a bullet will decelerate as much as 40 feet per second per second faster in these climate conditions. It's denser air, you know.

- David Jones, Ice Station Zebra (1968) (re/Arctic combat). Of course, high altitude will counter that.

Slightly higher chance of malfunction due to the cold, especially with weapons with moving parts or springs (like automatic weapons). OTOH, weapons prone to overheating do so less often...

[.45cultist]

Not quite. An insignificant difference, perhaps, but I think you'll find the operational characteristics of the M-16 indicate that a bullet will decelerate as much as 40 feet per second per second faster in these climate conditions. It's denser air, you know.

- David Jones, Ice Station Zebra (1968) (re/Arctic combat). Of course, high altitude will counter that.

Slightly higher chance of malfunction due to the cold, especially with weapons with moving parts or springs (like automatic weapons). OTOH, weapons prone to overheating do so less often...

The M1, M14 shine here, when they start to be difficult, one can beat the bolt back with a 2X4.

[Cdnwolf]

Like this

[swaghauler]

The M1, M14 shine here, when they start to be difficult, one can beat the bolt back with a 2X4.

We had a "confiscated" AK-47 (type 2 no less) that had all of its bluing replaced by rust in Somalia. The bolt rusted shut and we'd just kick it open with the heel of our boot; load a mag and fire it off. It NEVER failed to work. We used motor oil for lubricant on it and would mag dump it until the hand guards smoked. It wasn't very accurate (it had been around since 1951 and who knows how much of that in Africa) and was heavy as h**l; but it shot flawlessly. We had to turn it over to Battalion after about 2 weeks with it. There was talk about NOT telling command about it, but we did the right thing. I really liked that AK's reliability. It was slightly better than my A2 and at least an order of magnitude better than an A1.

[CDAT]

We had a "confiscated" AK-47 (type 2 no less) that had all of its bluing replaced by rust in Somalia. The bolt rusted shut and we'd just kick it open with the heel of our boot; load a mag and fire it off. It NEVER failed to work. We used motor oil for lubricant on it and would mag dump it until the hand guards smoked. It wasn't very accurate (it had been around since 1951 and who knows how much of that in Africa) and was heavy as h**l; but it shot flawlessly. We had to turn it over to Battalion after about 2 weeks with it. There was talk about NOT telling command about it, but we did the right thing. I really liked that AK's reliability. It was slightly better than my A2 and at least an order of magnitude better than an A1.

I had several Glock 17's and Ak-47 that I got to work on for the Iraqi's Police. In the six months to a year that they had them, they no longer would work, you could not get the bolt on the AK's to open no matter what you hit them with, with or without lubricant and the pistols they had destroyed the barrels. It was due to a total lack of maintenance and using bad ammo.

[Milano]

Cdnwolf Swaghauler and Unkatedif I was browsing through this and I figured that if you would like a pretty good approximation of projectile behavior at altitude and extreme cold you can use my Excel spread sheet.

If you search for my topic Real Life Small Arms and download the file. On the Ballistics Table tab in cells A14 and A15 there is Altitude and Temperature. You can get a general trend of what the climate will do by imputing a few weapons. I have found Wikipedia to be a pretty good resource for such things.

Just my 2 cents (and a plug)

[Tnchi2a]

Sorry its taken so long to get back her, but getting ready for classes has taken most of my time :eviltongu
also didnt help that i chopped the tip of my finger off

I was asked awile back what stats i was looking for :D
Here is a list of all the currently operational MBT in the world
now some of these have been done already so we have a base to start from.

Main Battle Tanks
TAM Tank
M1A1 AIM
SK 105
Leopard 1 BE
M3 Stuart Upgrade
X1A Stuart
X1A2 Stuart
Leopard C2
Leopard C2 uparmored
Type 59 MBT (T-54A)
Type 59-I MBT
Type 59-II MBT
Type 69-II MBT (export)
Type 79 MBT
Type 80 MBT
Type 88 MBT
Type 88B MBT
Type 85-IIAP MBT (export)
Type 99 MBT
T-55 w/105mm
AMX-13 Export 105mm
AMX-30
AMX-30 B2*
Leclerc
Leopard 1A5
Leopard 2A4
Leopard 2A5
Leopard 2A6
Vijayanta (Vickers Mk.I )
Arjun Mk 1*
Merkava 2B
Merkava 3
Merkava 3B Baz
Merkava 3B Dor Dalet
Merkava 4*
Sabra II
C1 Ariete
C1 Ariete Mk 2
OF-40
Type 74 MBT
Type 90 MBT
Type 10 MBT
Al-Khalid
Al-Hussein (Challanger 1)
Leopard 1-V
Ch’onma-ho I (Ga)(T-62 with thinner armour)
Ch’onma-ho II MBT (Imported T-62s)
Ch’onma-ho IM (Improved imported T-62)
Ch’onma-ho III(Da) MBT
Ch’onma-ho IV(Ra) MBT
Ch’onma-ho V(Ma) MBT
Pokpung-Ho (Seems to be a copy of the Modern T-72BM?)
NM-116
PT-91*
PT-91A*
T-72M1Z*
T-34/85
T-54
T-54B
T-55/T-55A
T-55MV-1 / T-55AMV-1
T-62 /T-62A
T-62M
T-62M1
T-62MV
T-64B1
T-64BV1
T-64R
T-72
T-72M Export
T-72A
T-72M1 Export
T-72B
T-72S Export
T-72B1
T-72M1M Export
T-72BM
T-80
T-80B*
T-80U*
T-80UM*
T-80UD*
T-90
T-90A
T-90S Export
Olifant 1 (Centurion)
Olifant 1A
Olifant 1B
K1A MBT
K2 Black Panther
Strv 121 (Leopard 2A4)
Strv 122 (Leopard 2A5)
Pz 68 MBT (being withdrawn from service)
M41 Walker Bulldog
M41D Walker Bulldog
CM-11 (M48H)*
CM-12 (M48A3 upgd)*
Stingray
M48A5T1
M48A5T2
Vickers Mk 3
Challenger 2
M5 Stuart
M47M (export only)
M48A1
M48A3
M48A5
M60A1
M60A3
M1A1
M1A1HA / M1A1HC
M1A1D
M1A2
M1A2 SEP
M1A2 TUSK
M1A1 Export
M1A2 Export
Zulfiqar

as you can see theres alot of them so its more then a one man job :p

[unkated]

I'll apologize if this is not the right place, but can someone summarise the differences between the mechanics of T2013 vs T2K V2.2?

Thanks,

Uncle Ted

[Damocles]

Yeah, you know, just whip up stats for ever freaking vehicle in the world.. LOL

And once done with every single MBT.. we have every SINGLE IFV to start on!!

BWAAA!!! Can't... stop... laughing...

:D

Sorry its taken so long to get back her, but getting ready for classes has taken most of my time :eviltongu
also didnt help that i chopped the tip of my finger off

I was asked awile back what stats i was looking for :D
Here is a list of all the currently operational MBT in the world
now some of these have been done already so we have a base to start from.

Main Battle Tanks
TAM Tank
M1A1 AIM
SK 105
Leopard 1 BE
M3 Stuart Upgrade
X1A Stuart
X1A2 Stuart
Leopard C2
Leopard C2 uparmored
Type 59 MBT (T-54A)
Type 59-I MBT
Type 59-II MBT
Type 69-II MBT (export)
Type 79 MBT
Type 80 MBT
Type 88 MBT
Type 88B MBT
Type 85-IIAP MBT (export)
Type 99 MBT
T-55 w/105mm
AMX-13 Export 105mm
AMX-30
AMX-30 B2*
Leclerc
Leopard 1A5
Leopard 2A4
Leopard 2A5
Leopard 2A6
Vijayanta (Vickers Mk.I )
Arjun Mk 1*
Merkava 2B
Merkava 3
Merkava 3B Baz
Merkava 3B Dor Dalet
Merkava 4*
Sabra II
C1 Ariete
C1 Ariete Mk 2
OF-40
Type 74 MBT
Type 90 MBT
Type 10 MBT
Al-Khalid
Al-Hussein (Challanger 1)
Leopard 1-V
Ch’onma-ho I (Ga)(T-62 with thinner armour)
Ch’onma-ho II MBT (Imported T-62s)
Ch’onma-ho IM (Improved imported T-62)
Ch’onma-ho III(Da) MBT
Ch’onma-ho IV(Ra) MBT
Ch’onma-ho V(Ma) MBT
Pokpung-Ho (Seems to be a copy of the Modern T-72BM?)
NM-116
PT-91*
PT-91A*
T-72M1Z*
T-34/85
T-54
T-54B
T-55/T-55A
T-55MV-1 / T-55AMV-1
T-62 /T-62A
T-62M
T-62M1
T-62MV
T-64B1
T-64BV1
T-64R
T-72
T-72M Export
T-72A
T-72M1 Export
T-72B
T-72S Export
T-72B1
T-72M1M Export
T-72BM
T-80
T-80B*
T-80U*
T-80UM*
T-80UD*
T-90
T-90A
T-90S Export
Olifant 1 (Centurion)
Olifant 1A
Olifant 1B
K1A MBT
K2 Black Panther
Strv 121 (Leopard 2A4)
Strv 122 (Leopard 2A5)
Pz 68 MBT (being withdrawn from service)
M41 Walker Bulldog
M41D Walker Bulldog
CM-11 (M48H)*
CM-12 (M48A3 upgd)*
Stingray
M48A5T1
M48A5T2
Vickers Mk 3
Challenger 2
M5 Stuart
M47M (export only)
M48A1
M48A3
M48A5
M60A1
M60A3
M1A1
M1A1HA / M1A1HC
M1A1D
M1A2
M1A2 SEP
M1A2 TUSK
M1A1 Export
M1A2 Export
Zulfiqar

as you can see theres alot of them so its more then a one man job :p

[kato13]

Yeah, you know, just whip up stats for ever freaking vehicle in the world.. LOL

And once done with every single MBT.. we have every SINGLE IFV to start on!!

BWAAA!!! Can't... stop... laughing...

:D

Paul has done it ;)

[Damocles]

Yeah and who tasked him to do it?

Hey Kato, I'm looking for someone to make a forum/website for every single RPG ever published. I don't have time to do all that, but Twilight 2000 and Morrow Project have been done, so we (and by we I mean you), have a basis to work from.

I'll be in skool if you need me.

;)

[.45cultist]

Sorry its taken so long to get back her, but getting ready for classes has taken most of my time :eviltongu
also didnt help that i chopped the tip of my finger off

I was asked awile back what stats i was looking for :D
Here is a list of all the currently operational MBT in the world
now some of these have been done already so we have a base to start from.

Main Battle Tanks
TAM Tank
M1A1 AIM
SK 105
Leopard 1 BE
M3 Stuart Upgrade
X1A Stuart
X1A2 Stuart
Leopard C2
Leopard C2 uparmored
Type 59 MBT (T-54A)
Type 59-I MBT
Type 59-II MBT
Type 69-II MBT (export)
Type 79 MBT
Type 80 MBT
Type 88 MBT
Type 88B MBT
Type 85-IIAP MBT (export)
Type 99 MBT
T-55 w/105mm
AMX-13 Export 105mm
AMX-30
AMX-30 B2*
Leclerc
Leopard 1A5
Leopard 2A4
Leopard 2A5
Leopard 2A6
Vijayanta (Vickers Mk.I )
Arjun Mk 1*
Merkava 2B
Merkava 3
Merkava 3B Baz
Merkava 3B Dor Dalet
Merkava 4*
Sabra II
C1 Ariete
C1 Ariete Mk 2
OF-40
Type 74 MBT
Type 90 MBT
Type 10 MBT
Al-Khalid
Al-Hussein (Challanger 1)
Leopard 1-V
Ch’onma-ho I (Ga)(T-62 with thinner armour)
Ch’onma-ho II MBT (Imported T-62s)
Ch’onma-ho IM (Improved imported T-62)
Ch’onma-ho III(Da) MBT
Ch’onma-ho IV(Ra) MBT
Ch’onma-ho V(Ma) MBT
Pokpung-Ho (Seems to be a copy of the Modern T-72BM?)
NM-116
PT-91*
PT-91A*
T-72M1Z*
T-34/85
T-54
T-54B
T-55/T-55A
T-55MV-1 / T-55AMV-1
T-62 /T-62A
T-62M
T-62M1
T-62MV
T-64B1
T-64BV1
T-64R
T-72
T-72M Export
T-72A
T-72M1 Export
T-72B
T-72S Export
T-72B1
T-72M1M Export
T-72BM
T-80
T-80B*
T-80U*
T-80UM*
T-80UD*
T-90
T-90A
T-90S Export
Olifant 1 (Centurion)
Olifant 1A
Olifant 1B
K1A MBT
K2 Black Panther
Strv 121 (Leopard 2A4)
Strv 122 (Leopard 2A5)
Pz 68 MBT (being withdrawn from service)
M41 Walker Bulldog
M41D Walker Bulldog
CM-11 (M48H)*
CM-12 (M48A3 upgd)*
Stingray
M48A5T1
M48A5T2
Vickers Mk 3
Challenger 2
M5 Stuart
M47M (export only)
M48A1
M48A3
M48A5
M60A1
M60A3
M1A1
M1A1HA / M1A1HC
M1A1D
M1A2
M1A2 SEP
M1A2 TUSK
M1A1 Export
M1A2 Export
Zulfiqar

as you can see theres alot of them so its more then a one man job :p

Start with a list of basic tanks first, the variants can be done later. Or pick a specific region and do the combatants most common AFV's first, then variants.

[swaghauler]

I'll apologize if this is not the right place, but can someone summarise the differences between the mechanics of T2013 vs T2K V2.2?

Thanks,

Uncle Ted

This is the perfect place to explain the mechanics of the various Twilight versions for anyone who hasn't had exposure to all of them.

Version 1: A percentile based game (you have a 40% chance to hit him).

Version 2: A slightly simplified system that included the revolutionary recoil rules and a Skill System based on a 1d10 roll.

Version 2.2: An "enhanced" version 2 rule set that transitioned to the 1D20 die roll system and added a "controlling attribute" to the skill level which created an asset for a beginning target number (ie. Small Arms skill level 2 + AGL of 6 equals an asset of 8). Version 2.2 was the most "polished" of the editions but I believe version 1 was "smoother" in play for most beginning players. It's hard to beat a simple percentile system.

Twilight 2013: The game to uses a specialized gaming system called The Reflex System. In the Reflex system; The character's attributes (base attributes are from 1 to 10) are used as "base target numbers" for any skills the character has learned. This base target number is modified by various bonuses and penalties. Skill levels are not used directly for task resolution though. The character's skill levels are referenced on a chart to get a "Skill Rating" from Unskilled through to Master Ratings. Each of these ratings allow one or more dice (from 1 die for Novice, up to 5 dice for Master) to be rolled. To determine your success in the Reflex System; You take the lowest successful die roll and subtract it from your target number. To this number you will add +2 for EACH additional successful die roll. The total of these numbers is your Margin of Success. This Margin of Success is used to determine the effect of your success in game. You would also have a Margin of Failure if none of your dice rolls succeeded. Twilight 2013 had some issues due to the complexity of the Reflex System (they can be math heavy and therefore cumbersome in use) but was pretty well written. Some of the rules are better than the previous editions. I like the reconstruction rules, The psychological damage rules and the rules on Coolness Under Fire (the best thought out of these rules in all of the editions).

In fact; I'm mixing and matching the aspects of all of the editions which I think work the best. I primarily use the version 2.2 rules but include elements of all the editions in my game.

[Tnchi2a]

Well one thing that should be brought up is that most of the differences between variants are not stat based.

example: the M1A1D is just a M1A1 with a new digital package added, basically GPS and battlefield computers.

Also some of the tanks are just older tanks with different names.
Exp: Type 59 MBT (T-54A),Al-Hussein (Challanger 1),Olifant 1 (Centurion), ETC.

The thing that would be the most work is the armor ratings because most if not all of the other stats are on the internet.

[Tnchi2a]

Yeah and who tasked him to do it?

Hey Kato, I'm looking for someone to make a forum/website for every single RPG ever published. I don't have time to do all that, but Twilight 2000 and Morrow Project have been done, so we (and by we I mean you), have a basis to work from.

I'll be in skool if you need me.

;)


When did i say i would not help :p

Name HF - HS - HR / TF - TS - TR

Leopard 2A4 160cp- 41- 31 / 188cp-60cp-49*

Leopard 2A6 164cp- 41- 31 / 195cp-68cp-49

M1A2 SEP 205cp- 30cp-21cp /183cp-68cp-65

Chieftain Mk 5 78-20-13 / 78-39-13 #

Challange 2 166cp- 43cp-27cp /192cp-68cp-55*

Leclerc 98cp- 36cp-20cp /121cp-34cp-34

T-90 160cp- 43 -36 / 190cp-88 - 42

T-80U 156cp- 41 -36 / 170cp-88 - 42*

T-72 97cp- 41 -31 / 110cp-79 - 33*

* Offical stats from TW2013
# Tegyrius stats

here some of my and others work on the subject now its not perfect but its a start.
Now as with all my work I'm not against honest criticism.

[.45cultist]

When did i say i would not help :p

Name HF - HS - HR / TF - TS - TR

Leopard 2A4 160cp- 41- 31 / 188cp-60cp-49*

Leopard 2A6 164cp- 41- 31 / 195cp-68cp-49

M1A2 SEP 205cp- 30cp-21cp /183cp-68cp-65

Chieftain Mk 5 78-20-13 / 78-39-13 #

Challange 2 166cp- 43cp-27cp /192cp-68cp-55*

Leclerc 98cp- 36cp-20cp /121cp-34cp-34

T-90 160cp- 43 -36 / 190cp-88 - 42

T-80U 156cp- 41 -36 / 170cp-88 - 42*

T-72 97cp- 41 -31 / 110cp-79 - 33*

* Offical stats from TW2013
# Tegyrius stats

here some of my and others work on the subject now its not perfect but its a start.
Now as with all my work I'm not against honest criticism.

Ok, a nice start.

[.45cultist]

Well one thing that should be brought up is that most of the differences between variants are not stat based.

example: the M1A1D is just a M1A1 with a new digital package added, basically GPS and battlefield computers.

Also some of the tanks are just older tanks with different names.
Exp: Type 59 MBT (T-54A),Al-Hussein (Challanger 1),Olifant 1 (Centurion), ETC.

The thing that would be the most work is the armor ratings because most if not all of the other stats are on the internet.

Does the M1A1D get land navigation bonuses for the working digital package? Does EMP mean the crew get a penalty for land navigation until this is repaired or replaced? There's more to think about for some variants.

[Tnchi2a]

Heres the first of the Tanks


AMX-56 Leclerc (Séries XXI)
.
Barter Value: GG3,650,000
Street Price: $7,300,000
Configuration: Turreted
Suspension: Trk
Crew: 3 (driver, commander, loader)
Cargo:
Weight: 60 Tons
Travel Speed: 22/14 km/hr
Combat Speed: 58/44 m
Fuel: 1,300L (D) (+ 400 L drop tank)
Fuel Cons: 128 L/hr
Maintenance: 26
Armor: HF-105cp, HS-36cp, HR-31; TF-188cp, TS-50cp, TR-26; Susp-24.
Equipment
Armament: GIAT CN120-26/52 120mm tank gun (Good stabilization); coaxial M2HB (G); weapons mount (C; typically MAG).
Ammo: 40 rounds of 120mm; 1,100 rounds 12.7mm ammo; 3,000 rounds of belted 7.62x51mm ammo.
Comm: Military vehicular radio; Tactical data net
Sensors: Headlights; variable magnification (Mag-0 or Mag-3) optical gunsights (C, G); Mag-1 night vision gunsights (C, G); laser rangefinder.
Aux: Autoloader; NBC defense system.

Note: there is talk of a ERA package but, I could not find any concrete info for this.

[Tegyrius]

Missed this until now...

Twilight 2013: The second game to use a specialized gaming system called The Reflex System. The first game was called The Swing (think Shadow Run meets Call of Cuthulu).

Point of order: Reflex was developed for Twilight: 2013 and was used only for that game. The Swing preceded Twilight: 2013 by several years and used a separate homebrew system devised by its author, Keith Taylor.

- C.

[swaghauler]

Missed this until now...



Point of order: Reflex was developed for Twilight: 2013 and was used only for that game. The Swing preceded Twilight: 2013 by several years and used a separate homebrew system devised by its author, Keith Taylor.

- C.

I'll take your word for it. The Swing was supposed to come out in the Reflex system about a month after TW2k13. Twilight got set back and didn't release when it was supposed to (took me 6 more months to get my copy) so I made the (apparently wrong) assumption that The Swing made it to print first (since it was only an update on a older game). I do know of the older Swing your speaking of. It used a system known as The Step System but I have never managed to get hold of either version (if the Reflex version was even released). Thanks for the clarification, I modified my previous post to prevent confusion.

[Trongard]

Greetings All!!!

I hope to get answers to my 2013 questions...

Only two to start with:

1) Medic, as an EMT (or general medic), can you guestimate the Muscle/Fitness loss for a Coma?

2) On page 175, the example at the bottom of the first column says "A critical injury reduces Pete’s Muscle from 9 to 8." Yet, when I look into critical injuries, there is no mention of possible loss of Muscle... Did our author forget something?

Sorry if these are a bit much, all at once, but I have a game I'm running that could have such challenges...:D

[Medic]

As a medical professional (registered nurse with experience from EMS, OR, ER and ICU, not to mention Combat Medical NCO), I would say one loses one point of both every three days, unless someone administers physical therapy and the character in question passes a Fitness check.

However, the rules state as follows:

After a critical injury’s modified healing time is up, make a Resolve check. If the check succeeds, one critically injured hit location of your choice heals to a serious injury. If the check fails, you must then make a Fitness check. If this check fails as well, your character receives a permanent impairment (see p. 175) to one randomly-selected critically injured hit location.

The page 175 comments on Physical Therapy and, if you read it through, it gives you an official rule on the subject - imho, the character in the receiving end doesn't have to be awake for the physical therapy to work (we did that quite a bit in the ICU, especially on long term patients). If left untreated, then a comatose patient would lose Muscle and Fitness quickly.

[Trongard]

I was thinking of Coma as a life phase (i.e.: with physical therapy, etc. [Think Steven Seagal in Hard to Kill]). Also, I wasn't referencing the Physical Therapy portion of page 175... I was referencing the lack of an explained condition of critical injury causing Muscle loss...

I guess I was vague. :D

3) How would you go about custom gunsmithing for an expert, or higher, Artisan (Gunsmithing) with an average Education?

Thanks for the info so far!
Tg

[Trongard]

Did I crash this thread???

No one else with answers/suggestions/questions???

:confused:

[.45cultist]

I'd guess it's a dull phase, no one in a coma would learn skills, just get older. You could roll like your aging to see if you lose stats. When you wake up, check to see if you make a contact from those who helped you.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The other thing to consider is that there aren't as many people here who know the 2013 rules well enough to comment compared to the number of people who know the T2k rules.

[Trongard]

Thanks for replying guys!

I understand that its a non-phase but, Coma does happen...

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!!

[unkated]

For vehicle stats, how different is T2013 from T2000 V2?

(other than the Digital fire control packages; electronics in vehicles is the main technological change between T2k's vehicles (circa 1995) and now (2015).

You could add a "comfort" value (a la Traveller:2300), since this period also includes the addition of features such as A/C (useful in the mideast, where many vehicles have been sent), and improved/comfortable seating.

Uncle Ted

[Medic]

LAV-C2
Purpose-built Battalion level command post vehicle, the LAV-C2 is the veritable center of the "anthill". Sporting a number of radios (four VHF SINCGARS, one UHF AN/VRC-83 and one HF AN/GRC-213, not to mention the UHF location reporting radio) and a BFT interface, it allows the Battalion Commander to direct his Battalion in combat.

The driver and vehicle commander have both daylight periscopes and night vision for their positions. The battalion commander has daylight periscopes, the communications specialists (two of them) have uplook periscopes and the staff member has three vision blocks.

Entry to the vehicle can happen through the five hatches on the roof (driver, vehicle commander, battalion commander and the two hatches on the rear deck) or through the twin doors in the rear that have no center post but can be fitted with a medium-sized military tent for additional workspace.

The vehicle has a 1200rpm manual idle-setting to provide power for all the electronics through an alternator and a recharger for four batteries, used by the radios when not connected to the vehicle. It also sports two manual halon-based fire extinguishers (one for the engine and one for the interior), a 15,000lb self recovery winch and an external power connector (28V DC or 110V AC).

The vehicle is fully amphibious with three minute preparation.

Barter Value: G650,000
Street Price: $1,950,000
Configuration: Standard
Suspension: OR
Crew: 2 (driver, commander) + 4 (battalion co, staff member, 2 radio operators)
Cargo: 900 kg
Weight: 13 tons
Travel Speed: 35/16 km/hr
Combat Speed: 98/45 m
Fuel: 270 L (D)
Fuel Cons: 40 L/hr
Maintenance: 16
Armor: HF 17, HS 11, HR 11; Susp 5.
Equipment
Armament: MAG (C), 2 smoke grenade launchers (4-rounds each).
Ammo: 1,000 rounds of belted 7.62mm NATO (200 ready), 16 smoke rounds (8 ready).
Comm: 4 Military vehicular radio; 2 Stationary Short-Wave Radios; tactical data link.
Sensors: Headlights; night vision system (D, C).
Aux: Amphibious running gear; self-recovery winch; 3 modern ruggedized laptop computers with scanner, laser printer and wired router; AN/GVS-5 hand-held laser rangefinder.

[Milano]

If anyone is still playing around with TW2013 I could sure use alittle help with creating small arms. I would like to plug in the numbers into an excel file I created but am still having issues with the formulas to get to some of the numbers.

It was mentioned that there were some other forums out there that had come up with some of them. Might someone have the link or a name? Or even better any formulas or insights?

[.45cultist]

If anyone is still playing around with TW2013 I could sure use alittle help with creating small arms. I would like to plug in the numbers into an excel file I created but am still having issues with the formulas to get to some of the numbers.

It was mentioned that there were some other forums out there that had come up with some of them. Might someone have the link or a name? Or even better any formulas or insights?

93 Studios is defunct but those people are here. If you look most calibers are present, you might just need the weight and possible quirks.

[Milano]

I have access to all of the information but I want to find the equation to make the data. That they come up with. There are inconsistencies in their published data and before I just guesstimate I would like to know why or what they did to come up with it.

I have an Excel spreadsheet with ALL of their small arms on it but I don't want to post it because of copyright stuff.

But an example is the M21 weight is 5.2 length is 1118 mm. The speed is 4/6/9. The M16 DMR (their vernacular) is 5.4 length of 1187 speed of 4/6/8. Why the quicker speed? the M21 is both lighter and shorter.

Another example is the difference between the C7a2 and M16a3. Why does the M16a3 have a range of M/S and the C7 have a range of T/S?

Or the M4 has a recoil of 5, the 416 has a recoil of 4 yet the M4 weighs less?

Anyway, I am just a function freak or possibly my OCD is showing up but I dislike inconsistency.

[Medic]

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Aux: Self-recovery winch.

[Medic]

Another example is the difference between the C7a2 and M16a3. Why does the M16a3 have a range of M/S and the C7 have a range of T/S?

I suspect, it is because the C7A2 has a telescopic stock, unlike the M16A3.

Or the M4 has a recoil of 5, the 416 has a recoil of 4 yet the M4 weighs less?

Exactly because of that. With the same round, the weapon with less weight gains more inertia through the recoil.

[rcaf_777]

I suspect, it is because the C7A2 has a telescopic stock, unlike the M16A3.

Their is a bit more than that

The C7A2 has a modified Weaver rail for mounting optics(Some people call this a Picatinny Rail however the rail on C7A1 and further models pre dates Picatinny rail MIL-STD-1913). Most C7A2 have the C79 Optical sight attached, however this can removed by the user and back up iron site can attached.

The C7A2 can also fire on semi-automatic and fully automatic VS semi-automatic and burst(three rounds) of the M16A2/3

[Medic]

The point was, why the rifles had different range bands. That being said, the C7A2's difference in that matter is the stock, while it is otherwise the same weapon, when talking about range.

[Milano]

Yea your right about the recoil values? I got that a bit mixed up. Still though maybe I will be wishing for this for a long while to come. Just curious if anyone had a bit of insight for the formulas.

I do wish 93 hadn't gone belly up. I've never the opportunity to play 2013 but I do like the rule set. Hopefully I will play with my kids someday.

[Medic]

Yea your right about the recoil values? I got that a bit mixed up. Still though maybe I will be wishing for this for a long while to come. Just curious if anyone had a bit of insight for the formulas.

I do wish 93 hadn't gone belly up. I've never the opportunity to play 2013 but I do like the rule set. Hopefully I will play with my kids someday.

There is the master arms list a good set of different calibers to choose from and as for the rest, the Sweet 16 supplement gives you some insight on barrel lengths and such. Rest of it is approximating and comparing the values between weapons with rules for them.

As for playing, I've been contemplating on setting up an online playtest, where people could try coming to a suitable compromise on the online use of the 2013 rules. They can be a bit heavy to run online, so finding ideas on how to ease that would be grand. And I still need to wait a few years, before I can introduce my kids to the Twilight universe - 3.5 and 2 years of age aren't quite compatible with post-apoc gaming. :D

[Milano]

Isn't having kids that age alittle like LIVING in a post-apoc war zone? (I have two boys 2.5 and 4)

[Medic]

Isn't having kids that age alittle like LIVING in a post-apoc war zone? (I have two boys 2.5 and 4)

At times more than just a little, even though the older one is a girl - but then again she's a bit of a tomboy. I'm pretty sure, she might actually do the conscript service, when she comes of the age.

But, that's that for the said subject. I'm actually planning on writing up a story with the help of the game rules, once I get through with generating the central cast for it.

[swaghauler]

Isn't having kids that age alittle like LIVING in a post-apoc war zone? (I have two boys 2.5 and 4)

Just remember how cute they are now when they are coming home and saying... "Dad, I wrecked the car."

Kids are cute when they are small so you don't kill them. Later on, you have too much time and money invested in them to even contemplate it. I had two good ones and a third that fulfilled the "Mother's Curse." :)

[Targan]

I have one that's 17 and another that's nearly 2... what was I thinking?

[unkated]

I have one that's 17 and another that's nearly 2... what was I thinking?

Clearly, there's a lot you forgot in 15 years :D

Uncle Ted

[Medic]

I have one that's 17 and another that's nearly 2... what was I thinking?

The question should be evident, as well as what you were thinking with...:D

[swaghauler]

I was wondering if anyone had ever considered backtracking the TW2K13 rules to a more V2.2-like version. I wonder how much modification it would take to the Reflex System to just roll a single 1D20 BUT still use the Margins of Success and Margins of Failure the system uses. My first thought is to add the Skill Level number to the Base Target Number (as determined by the task's required characteristic score). I'd then add the modifiers but drop the limit of +5 to the Target Number bonuses. This seems to balance the Margin of Success probability when using only a single die to determine success.

Has anyone ever tried this?

[Tegyrius]

I was wondering if anyone had ever considered backtracking the TW2K13 rules to a more V2.2-like version. I wonder how much modification it would take to the Reflex System to just roll a single 1D20 BUT still use the Margins of Success and Margins of Failure the system uses. My first thought is to add the Skill Level number to the Base Target Number (as determined by the task's required characteristic score). I'd then add the modifiers but drop the limit of +5 to the Target Number bonuses. This seems to balance the Margin of Success probability when using only a single die to determine success.

Has anyone ever tried this?

I've all but completely abandoned Reflex. With the clarity of hindsight, it'd be adequate as a computer-mediated system but it's too slow and cumbersome for the sort of tabletop play I prefer. Recently, I've found myself returning once again to one of its inspirations: the Synergy engine in second edition Blue Planet.

- C.

[swaghauler]

I've all but completely abandoned Reflex. With the clarity of hindsight, it'd be adequate as a computer-mediated system but it's too slow and cumbersome for the sort of tabletop play I prefer. Recently, I've found myself returning once again to one of its inspirations: the Synergy engine in second edition Blue Planet.

- C.

That's a shame after you invested so much in TW2K13. :( Your CUF rules are second to none and I use a simplified TICK system for Initiative. I also think your use of Qualifications as "subskills" was revolutionary.

I would love to see an "evolutionary" version of Twilight using the best features from all of the previous editions of the game.

[Tegyrius]

That's a shame after you invested so much in TW2K13. :( Your CUF rules are second to none and I use a simplified TICK system for Initiative. I also think your use of Qualifications as "subskills" was revolutionary.

I would love to see an "evolutionary" version of Twilight using the best features from all of the previous editions of the game.

I do appreciate the words. We did most of the design work on Reflex over 2006-07, so it's been a decade... and I have, over those years, occasionally thought about what I'd do differently. The answer is "a hell of a lot." Honestly, I think the initiative system would be the first thing to go. In my playtesting and demo games, it's the hardest thing for new players to pick up, which means it's a significant barrier to entry - or a massive logistical burden on the GM. I'd also move a lot of sub-rules, like encumbrance and survival, from rigid simulations to a more narrative approach. Unfortunately, in doing that, I think I'd alienate the small percentage of the 2.0/2.2 fan base that still likes Reflex too. So I'd basically be writing a game system just for me. Not much of a return on investment in that...

- C.

[.45cultist]

I was wondering if anyone had ever considered backtracking the TW2K13 rules to a more V2.2-like version. I wonder how much modification it would take to the Reflex System to just roll a single 1D20 BUT still use the Margins of Success and Margins of Failure the system uses. My first thought is to add the Skill Level number to the Base Target Number (as determined by the task's required characteristic score). I'd then add the modifiers but drop the limit of +5 to the Target Number bonuses. This seems to balance the Margin of Success probability when using only a single die to determine success.

Has anyone ever tried this?

I plan to use the construction and computer net rules with V2.2. and try to modify some of the civilian careers and the final year. I will use a future timeline.

[Trongard]

SpyCraft 2.0 is available from drivethrurpg for very little cost... converts T2K13 to D20...