More stupid U.S. Marines

[ShadoWarrior]

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/TjNoR1HFjHi27c7cawx3BA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9NzkwO2NyPTE7Y3c9MTUwMDtkeD0wO2 R5PTA7Zmk9dWxjcm9wO2g9MzMyO3E9ODU7dz02MzA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/ddb8b2530ae0be04060f6a706700ef26.jpg

Picture was on Knight's Armament's company blog. (I live in the same town as KAC, but I don't work there.) The full report by AP can be read on yahoo news here (http://news.yahoo.com/us-marines-posed-nazi-symbol-afghanistan-185101573.html;_ylt=AlKR4lkVSZLAPSCYgvdt2Pes0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTNqcnAzbzl1BGNjb2RlA2N0LmMEcGtnA2MxNDY1NT gxLTVkNTgtM2FiMy1iNmEzLWE1NTEwNjYxYWRhZgRwb3MDNgRz ZWMDbW9zdF9wb3B1bGFyBHZlcgNmZjczNzlkNC01MzcxLTExZT EtOWMwNy03OGU3ZDE1ZTUxNjA-;_ylg=X3oDMTFvdnRqYzJoBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25zBHRlc3QD;_ ylv=3).

I don't buy, at all, that none of the ten guys in the pic, nor the photographer, knew that those jagged letters were the Nazi emblem. No one could be that ignorant. Not even Americans. Come on, get real. None of these dickheads ever played a WW2 FPS game while they were growing up?

[Legbreaker]

I'm not at all convinced none of them knew about the German SS, but I can easily believe most don't know the full story behind them.
It's also quite possible (unfortunately) that at least one of them (probably at least the owner of it) has some fairly solid (and misguided) links to some of the more extreme groups to be found around the world.
The original SS were supposed to have been an elite force, if somewhat morally "bent". Snipers and recon troops tend to think they're also elite (warranted or not) and therefore above the laws and regulations the grunts have to live by (just like the Germans)...

[/rambling]

[Raellus]

It's been a really bad few weeks PR-wise for the USMC. I, for one, don't buy for a second that the scout snipers in the photo didn't understand the significance of the SS runes. Is it just a coincidence that all of the men in the photo are white? There's a mystique attached to the SS (more specifically the Waffen SS) that a lot of people are attracted to, even if they don't espouse Hitler's racial beliefs. Someone in that group had to have known what the SS was all about, though. Their lame excuse is almost as insulting to the thinking public as the image itself is.

It's really rather unfortunate because the vast majority of Marines are decent and courageous people. A few bad apples get 99% of the publicity and drag the Corps' reputation through the mud.

[Fusilier]

All a misunderstanding guys. Here is the real pic...

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/9343/1328912081348.jpg

[Schone23666]

All a misunderstanding guys. Here is the real pic...

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/9343/1328912081348.jpg


Please tell me that IS in fact the real pic...

[ShadoWarrior]

Please tell me that IS in fact the real pic...'Fraid not. It's clearly been photoshopped. The KISS letters do not conform to the wavy fabric of the flag. They're a foreground object superimposed on the image. It's a nicely done amateur photo edit.

[Bullet Magnet]

None of these dickheads ever played a WW2 FPS game while they were growing up?

Or watched a movie set in Europe during the 1940s?
Or hell! Caught the right rerun of Hogan's Heroes?
My point being, even here in the States, with an educational system I rate as "could work its way up to piss poor, if we could get the political/bureaucratic bullshit out of the way", it is still easy enough to learn the more prominent symbols of the nations we went to war against. Especially when it's that particular nation, and that particular war.

And now, we reap the rewards of decades of hailing ignorance as a desirable trait.

[waiting4something]

There is nothing wrong with these Marines doing this. This is not something new people. Scout Snipers have been using sig rune style letters for a long time. SS- Scout Snipers. If this offends people, then to bad.

[Tegyrius]

Yeah, too bad when some of those people sit on appropriations committees. Too bad when some of those people control the media channels that shape public opinion of the military.

- C.

[Legbreaker]

It is however in extremely bad taste, especially if the practise was taken up post WWII.
The swastika itself isn't inherently and solely a nazi symbol, but rather the badge of a defunct (can't imagine why ;)) German car manufacturer which in turn was borrowed from an ancient fertility/sun symbol and comes in both male and female (mirror image).
Unfortunately for the symbol, it's now associated almost without exception to a very short space of time in the first half of the twentieth century.

The SS insignia as displayed in the photo has likewise come to be associated with evil and so it's use should be avoided.

[waiting4something]

Yeah, too bad when some of those people sit on appropriations committees. Too bad when some of those people control the media channels that shape public opinion of the military.

- C.

Yeah it is to bad isn't. It's to bad outsiders have so much say in stuff they know so little about.

[waiting4something]

When are people going start bitching about Jolly Roger flags and symbols. That's pirate shit....... we don't want people to think we rape, pillage, and plunder places. Or Spartan symbols.... oh no we don't want people to think we all get together and have gay orgies.

[simonmark6]

So if symbols mean nothing, why get angry when people burn the American Flag? If it means nothing why get upset? There is a power in symbols, one we shouldn't take lightly and one that can't easily be dismissed.

As for people that don't know much about a subject sticking their noses in, that's called oversight. It's the bane of every closed shop or profession or body, it can be a pain in the ass but its also what keeps us all honest.

Go figure...

[Targan]

Or Spartan symbols.... oh no we don't want people to think we all get together and have gay orgies.

That's more of an Athenian thing than Spartan.

Scout Snipers have been using sig rune style letters for a long time. SS- Scout Snipers.

No one's suggesting that SS isn't a perfectly reasonable abbreviation for Scout Snipers. That some Scout Snipers choose to render those 2 letters in exactly the same style as the Nazi SS used, well that's bound to be offensive to some people.

If this offends people, then to bad.

Now we get to the crux of it. It's an easy thing to say, but it shows a distinct lack of empathy. If someone said something to you that you found offensive, are you saying that "then to (sic) bad" would apply to you, too? Or would you say or do something to make it known that you were offended?

[Raellus]

There is nothing wrong with these Marines doing this. This is not something new people. Scout Snipers have been using sig rune style letters for a long time. SS- Scout Snipers. If this offends people, then to bad.

Really? This ef-the-rest-of-the-world attitude is why so many foreign people have such a low opinion of Americans. My grandfather fought in a war against the Nazis and their SS and now we're celebrating them by adopted their symbols? It's OK because the scout snipers have been using this symbol for a long time? What's your source for this? This is the first I've seen or heard anything about it.

I'm offended, but I guess that's just too bad.

[Fusilier]

Meanwhile... at waiting4something's house.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/525/1315773004151.jpg

I'm just playing around with you dude. I don't mean it or anything.

[Webstral]

There are many people in the world—the US very much included—who are far too easily offended. Being overly sensitive seems to be a part of their self-image. I agree with you, Waiting, that we should not allow freedom of speech to be dictated or circumscribed by the hypersensitive. I heartily dislike the chicanery of political correctness.

On the other hand, Nazi Germany is a special case. Pirates under the Jolly Roger have committed terrible acts, it’s true. Personally, I don’t much care for the American fascination with pirates because they were, and still are, violent criminals. This much said, Nazi Germany is a special case due to the incredible scale of Nazi atrocities and the cold-blooded, methodical, and engineered manner in which they conducted their crimes against humanity. Any reference to Nazi Germany brings huge baggage to the table.

Targan states the case against the use of SS in the style depicted on the flag more neutrally than I would. To claim that SS as shown on that flag is merely an abbreviation for “Scout Snipers” is like claiming that the Nazi-style salute, when used by a white supremacist group, is merely an alternative style of salute that is otherwise devoid of meaning or reference. Such a claim holds less water than a sieve.

Let’s get down to it, then. The use of lettering from the SS is unavoidably attached to the identity of the SS. The SS was a force of political soldiers distinct from the regular German Army. The SS performed brilliantly on the battlefield. They also ran the death camps. They were card-carrying Nazis. The placement of a flag with SS lettering underneath the American flag is a jarring juxtaposition of values, suggesting very strongly that these Marines believe that the unprecedentedly violent fascism of Nazi Germany has a place in American life. Remember that these aren’t survivalists running around in the woods on their own recognizance. These are US Marines. They swore to uphold the Constitution. Like it or not, they represent the nation. The armed forces don’t have the luxury of telling the nation they serve that being offended is just too bad when the US flag and all it represents is placed directly adjacent to symbols from Nazi Germany and all Nazi Germany represents. People should be concerned.

While I sympathize with a tendency on the part of troops—especially troops in elite units—to want to associate themselves with, emulate, and otherwise incorporate values from history’s stellar fighting men and formations, the use of Nazi symbolism anywhere in the logos, insignia, or regalia of a US military unit shows very poor judgment at the very least.

[weswood]

Meanwhile... at waiting4something's house.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/525/1315773004151.jpg

I'm just playing around with you dude. I don't mean it or anything.

This picture disturbs me. All that beautiful milk being wasted.

[copeab]

For example, the Nazi use of the swastika has ruined any use of it by non-Nazi groups, despite it being a symbol thousands of years old and use widely around the world before Hitler was ever born.

[Fusilier]

For example, the Nazi use of the swastika has ruined any use of it by non-Nazi groups, despite it being a symbol thousands of years old and use widely around the world before Hitler was ever born.

It's only ruined in North America and Europe. Its meaning is still of the original in most of Asia. Even the Jews use it.

[Legbreaker]

The swastika itself isn't inherently and solely a nazi symbol, but rather the badge of a defunct (can't imagine why ;)) German car manufacturer which in turn was borrowed from an ancient fertility/sun symbol and comes in both male and female (mirror image).
Unfortunately for the symbol, it's now associated almost without exception to a very short space of time in the first half of the twentieth century.

For example, the Nazi use of the swastika has ruined any use of it by non-Nazi groups, despite it being a symbol thousands of years old and use widely around the world before Hitler was ever born.

Exactly the point I was making.
In the late 90's I worked in the old Customs House building in Sydney.http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/customshouse/heritage/
In the foyer, and right across the entire ground floor (about 400 square metres) prior to the renovation completed in 1998, the solid granite floor is inlaid with the swastika, black symbols on a white background. Both the male and female symbols are there, all about three inches across and one about every square foot. Note the date the building was constructed.

I've had the "pleasure" of trying to explain to holocaust survivors why they are there and "no, I'm sorry, I can't get a hammer and chisel and rip them all up for you while you watch". In all my years this encounter was the most extreme and emotional I've ever experienced, and I've seen some pretty nasty stuff!

Now while those symbols have every right to be where they are, there's no way in hell they would, even could be used in a new construction today.

So yes, symbols have power, usually from the actions of groups which at some point in history used and abused their original meaning.

As another example, think of the word "gay". Original meaning was simply happy, now it's homosexual. You won't find too many people using the word in it's original context any more will you?

[Targan]

Targan states the case against the use of SS in the style depicted on the flag more neutrally than I would.

That's because nowdays, most of the time (sometimes I slip up due to having had a drink or two or being in a bad mood), I self-censor my own posts on this forum fairly heavily. I've learned that lesson the hard way, over many years of participating here. I recall a few years ago giving my true opinion on the treatment of the Palestinian people and damn near got myself digitally lynched.

[Jason Weiser]

Well as a Jew, and someone who's known Marines..

1. This is not just a failure of individual common sense on the part of these Marines (and yes, it was), but a failure of a SNCO with more sense than them to grab the ringleader of this Charlie-Fox and give him a wall to wall counseling session (or whatever Marines call it).

2. What makes it worse is they juxtapose the flag with it. The same flag my grandfather bled for, He and his buddies killed plenty of folks wearing those runes on the collar. (and were killed by them) That's war, that part I get, Considering unofficial division policy was to drive any captured SS halfway back to the rear, then let them get out and run, and shoot them for "attempted escape". This was after Luneville when SS snipers had a nasty tendency to use the red cross on the helmets of division medics as an aiming point....Sorry, I don't weep for them at all. I won't talk about what happened when they liberated Ohurduf-Nord.

3. The Marines have a warrior ethos to uphold, and while the SS did fight well, it's actions off the battlefield (and yes, even the Waffen-SS wasn't immune) dishonor that ten times over at least. The Marine Corps shouldn't even want to be in the same league with that.

4. As a wargamer, I get the "celebrating elite units" bit...but there's plenty of folks in the USMC who have something to emulate; Carlos Hathcock for one? Glad HE isn't alive to see this...

[Grimace]

I was in the camp of "man, people are just being too overly sensative these days" and that it was being blown out of proportion by the media and others. I mean, sure the letters are of the same style as the SS of Nazi Germany, but the flag is not the same flag. And I did know that the Scout Snipers had used that symbol for a while.

In other areas I've read a lot of people railing against the image, and others railing against those that rail against the image. It wasn't until I read Webstral's comments that it ever occured to me to think another way. It goes to my personal belief of Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it. I had this belief about people wanting to build things in particular places or certain groups choosing to petition certain things. Just because you legally can do it, doesn't mean you ethically should do it.

So should the Scout Snipers be able to use the SS abbreviation? Certainly. But should they use the same general style as that used by the SS of Nazi Germany? They can, but they shouldn't.

With the advent of camera phones in everyone's pocket now, it's fairly evident you can't even take a piss without someone taking a picture of it anymore, so people have to take that into consideration as to their actions and the images they use. What may have flown even 20 years ago simply is too potentially incriminating anymore to use/say/do.

And Targan, sorry if I lynched you.

[pmulcahy11b]

Oh shit, if I have to explain what is wrong with that flag, you're too clueless to absorb ANY explanation. History, folks, HISTORY! I'd love to know the percentage of neo-Nazis in that gaggle.

[Fusilier]

I've been waiting a long time for some reason or other to post this.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/7264/nazismotivator.jpg

[simonmark6]

Tut tut, Fuse, I never had you down as a kitten apologist...

[ShadoWarrior]

I've been waiting a long time for some reason or other to post this.Interesting. However, for the sake of argument, there are (at least) three things wrong with the premise to the pic's caption:


Just because the Waffen-SS soldiers are playing with a kitten doesn't mean that they would have any qualms whatsoever about murdering a human.
We don't know that they didn't throw the kitten to some dogs to tear apart after the pic was taken.
A few (or even many) "not bad" SS troops in no way absolves the many other SS troops who committed atrocities.

The picture smacks of having been taken by the Reich propaganda ministry, whether it was or not.

[Legbreaker]

WATCH OUT!
The kitten's got a grenade!!!!

[Grimace]

A few (or even many) "not bad" SS troops in no way absolves the many other SS troops who committed atrocities.


The only problem with that particular line of thinking is the use of it on military forces of your own nation (this applies to any nation). If some of the military ends up committing atrocities, does it make every one of the people in the same unit, regardless of the number of the "not bad" people, equally as bad as those that committed the atrocity? Or does it make those that commited the atrocity the real bad people and the rest of them the easy scapegoat?

Mind you, I'm not saying that there weren't terrible people in the SS. I'm just saying the simply by being in a unit doesn't mean you are automatically terrible, which is what too many people believe.

[Fusilier]

Interesting. However, for the sake of argument, there are (at least) three things wrong with the premise to the pic's caption:


It was a joke.

[Legbreaker]

Today's joke was yesterday's propaganda.

The SS flag could also have been "just a joke", but there's no way it can been seen in that light while ever there is anyone still alive who experienced the horrors of WWII, or even heard of them from their parents or Grandparents. Maybe in another hundred years....

[Fusilier]

Today's joke was yesterday's propaganda.

The SS flag could also have been "just a joke", but there's no way it can been seen in that light while ever there is anyone still alive who experienced the horrors of WWII, or even heard of them from their parents or Grandparents. Maybe in another hundred years....

Would that also apply to jokes in the form of comedy movies based on the second world war? To me, my picture is no different than Kelly's Heroes, Catch-22, or Hogan's Heroes... just a joke.

[copeab]

Would that also apply to jokes in the form of comedy movies based on the second world war? To me, my picture is no different than Kelly's Heroes, Catch-22, or Hogan's Heroes... just a joke.

I think that, with all the emoticons in use, many people online have trouble getting sarcasm without them.

[Fusilier]

I think that, with all the emoticons in use, many people online have trouble getting sarcasm without them.

I can agree with that... which is why I put a disclaimer at the bottom of my jab at Waiting4something. I didn't on the other two because I was not targeting anyone here with them and I didn't think they could be interpreted as serious.

[waiting4something]

Meanwhile... at waiting4something's house.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/525/1315773004151.jpg

I'm just playing around with you dude. I don't mean it or anything.

hahahaha..... really cute.:rolleyes: I do happen to think the ss sig runes and death head look pretty cool. If that makes me wrong, so be it. I even bought a back plate piece for a Glock that has that style skull and crossbones. It looks good. The lightning bolt style s looks good too. Hell seeing that picture with the KISS flag made me think even KISS uses it. Now if you will excuse me I have to go clean my nazi paraphernalia.;)

[Panther Al]

Call me weird..


*pauses for people to do so*

I really have to know: whats the point of all that in the pic? That neo-nazi's are loonies is a given, but... the milk and the hood, and all the rest of it?

[waiting4something]

I'm sorry I really still don't see anything wrong with Marine Scout Snipers using sig-rune style letters. If we backdown to everything that some group finds offensive what can we use? We our self become nazi's banning everything. I see no probelm with the stars and bars either. It's like when people have to change a school mascot name because, it offends someone. I don't how we can still have a stars and stripes flag, we did some bad shit under that. As long as your expressions are not taking away someones freedom or physically hurting them there really shouldn't be a issue.

For so reason anything dealing with WWII Germany is always a hot topic. I knew this posting would be more then a few posters. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up locked like the last time.:( I think the reason why nazi's are always the biggest bad guy on the block issue, is because brainwashing from Hollywood. Imperial Japan gets nowhere close to the attention level.

[Fusilier]

I really have to know: whats the point of all that in the pic? That neo-nazi's are loonies is a given, but... the milk and the hood, and all the rest of it?

It's from Dany Peschl's photography project called Disturbation. All of the photos in the project are of a similar humorous, caught in the act, WTF style. Interpret it as you see fit.

[Legbreaker]

Would that also apply to jokes in the form of comedy movies based on the second world war? To me, my picture is no different than Kelly's Heroes, Catch-22, or Hogan's Heroes... just a joke.

A movie or television show is seen as the comedy it is. The "enemy" whether they be Germans, Huns, Gengis Khan, Martians or whatever are seen in context.
The photo with the US flag and SS symbol on the other hand has no such context. It's nothing more than a single frame which really can only be taken seriously in one way. If they were all pulling faces or wearing bikini's or something on the other hand....

[Fusilier]

A movie or television show is seen as the comedy it is. The "enemy" whether they be Germans, Huns, Gengis Khan, Martians or whatever are seen in context.
The photo with the US flag and SS symbol on the other hand has no such context. It's nothing more than a single frame which really can only be taken seriously in one way. If they were all pulling faces or wearing bikini's or something on the other hand....

I see.... I thought we were talking about my Nazis & kittens photo.

[Legbreaker]

I see.... I thought we were talking about my Nazis & kittens photo.

Nope, I don't see any major problems with either of them. The kitten is essentially just a historical photo and certainly contains nothing at all offensive (besides the fact they're SS soldiers).
The second is just plain weird, and again we have the context thing happening - there's no doubt at all these people are weird and don't in any way conform to the rest of society.

The marines on the other hand are respresentative of a wider and supposedly respected group. They, unlike the individuals in the milk photo who can't really be identified with any respected, mainstream group, should, nay, MUST be hold themselves to a MUCH higher standard.

But I'm sure I don't need to tell anyone else here any of that. It's all fairly standard and obvious I'd think.

[Targan]

Imperial Japan gets nowhere close to the attention level.

It does in Australia. Many, many older Australians don't like seeing or talking to Japanese tourists even today. Quite a few Australian films have been made about Australia's battles with the Japanese during WWII, but very few about Australia's battles against the Axis forces in Europe. There's still a lot of bad feeling about what the Japanese did to our POWs. I'd say there is a much greater legacy of hate here in modern Australia over the Imperial Japanese forces compared to the forces of Nazi Germany.

[Legbreaker]

It does in Australia. Many, many older Australians don't like seeing or talking to Japanese tourists even today. Quite a few Australian films have been made about Australia's battles with the Japanese during WWII, but very few about Australia's battles against the Axis forces in Europe. There's still a lot of bad feeling about what the Japanese did to our POWs. I'd say there is a much greater legacy of hate here in modern Australia over the Imperial Japanese forces compared to the forces of Nazi Germany.

Very, very true.
And here I am now, an ex Australian solider chasing the most beautiful woman on the planet, who just happens to be Japanese.... :s

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'm sorry I really still don't see anything wrong with Marine Scout Snipers using sig-rune style letters. If we backdown to everything that some group finds offensive what can we use? We our self become nazi's banning everything. I see no probelm with the stars and bars either. It's like when people have to change a school mascot name because, it offends someone. I don't how we can still have a stars and stripes flag, we did some bad shit under that. As long as your expressions are not taking away someones freedom or physically hurting them there really shouldn't be a issue.

For so reason anything dealing with WWII Germany is always a hot topic. I knew this posting would be more then a few posters. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up locked like the last time.:( I think the reason why nazi's are always the biggest bad guy on the block issue, is because brainwashing from Hollywood. Imperial Japan gets nowhere close to the attention level.

I do see something wrong with USMC scout snipers using the exact same style of letters as the SS did for one reason in particular. Intent.
Forget all the other bullshit about people making a fuss about it, lets look at the intent of some scout snipers to use the EXACT same style of lettering as used by an organization that helped to make murder an industrial process.
What is the intent of certain USMC scout snipers to use the same style?

I do agree that there is too much made of the Nazis in many cases but in many other cases there are still people living now who have memories of the atrocities of WW2. It's all about having some empathy for your fellow human beings. If certain scout snipers don't have that quality, then what the hell are they in the USMC for considering it's stated aims and beliefs?

[Targan]

It's all about having some empathy for your fellow human beings.

Yes, exactly. Well put. I used the same word at the bottom of post #14.

[Targan]

And here I am now, an ex Australian solider chasing the most beautiful woman on the planet, who just happens to be Japanese.... :s

And when you catch her you'll 'put her to the sword', no doubt :D. Good luck, champ!

[Webstral]

The fact that the Nazis receive much more attention than the Imperial Japanese throughout most of the West (with the sentiments of our Aussie and Kiwi cousins excepted and respected) in no way, shape, or form diminishes the crimes of the Nazis or the Japanese. I'm not sure why you bring up the Imperial Japanese, Waiting; typically, though, such a tactic is meant to ameleorate the crimes of the group or individual receiving the negative attention. "Johnny beat a puppy to death, and he doesn't get nearly as much crap as I get for having burned a kitten. I'm being mistreated," is the usual line of thinking.

The Nazis deserve every bit of bile humanity can heap upon them. Without a doubt, there are other groups who have committed heinous crimes on large scales. Whether the Imperial Japanese or any other group in history receives the negative attention they deserve is immaterial in assessing the Nazis. Their evil stands on its own (de)merits. I'd be happy to discuss the evil done by other groups and/or ideologies. Goodness knows such a vein is deep and rich. However, I reject out of hand any suggestion that the Nazis somehow must be given a go because the world isn't harsh enough on the Imperial Japanese, Stalin's Soviet Union, the Khmer Rouge, the Rwandese of the 1990's, the Mongols, or whoever. Evil is evil, and it does not get graded on a sliding scale.

Waiting, I'm glad you have a sense of humor about the photo. I seriously thought about exercising my prerogative as a moderator in this instance. Good on you!

I'm saddened that you don't seem to understand the impact of the photo at the top of this thread. I'm troubled that you're confusing the freedom of speech enjoyed by American citizens with the role and responsibilities of members of the US armed forces. I'm saddened by your apparent indifference to the potential impact of such an image on the USMC. The integrity of the Corps is struck a blow by the implication that an ideology alien to the American way of life has taken root in the USMC. This is no garden variety freedom of speech issue. The use of Nazi symbology begs the question of what this unit stands for. If the unit's use of Nazi symbols is tolerated by the Corps, then question of values gets applied to the Corps as a whole. I'm no Marine, but I love the Corps too much to be tolerant of a pack of thoughtless chuckleheads--elite thoughtless chuckleheads, but thoughtless chuckleheads nonetheless--who inspire doubt in the sacred connection between the USMC and the American way of life. We can talk all we want about the pros and cons of the use of the Confederate flag by civilians, but the military doesn't get the freedom of expression it defends.

[Raellus]

I'm saddened that you don't seem to understand the impact of the photo at the top of this thread. I'm troubled that you're confusing the freedom of speech enjoyed by American citizens with the role and responsibilities of members of the US armed forces. I'm saddened by your apparent indifference to the potential impact of such an image on the USMC. The integrity of the Corps is struck a blow by the implication that an ideology alien to the American way of life has taken root in the USMC. This is no garden variety freedom of speech issue. The use of Nazi symbology begs the question of what this unit stands for. If the unit's use of Nazi symbols is tolerated by the Corps, then question of values gets applied to the Corps as a whole. I'm no Marine, but I love the Corps too much to be tolerant of a pack of thoughtless chuckleheads--elite thoughtless chuckleheads, but thoughtless chuckleheads nonetheless--who inspire doubt in the sacred connection between the USMC and the American way of life. We can talk all we want about the pros and cons of the use of the Confederate flag by civilians, but the military doesn't get the freedom of expression it defends.

+1. You expressed what I am thinking and feeling better than I could myself.

[Panther Al]

Speaking of a former US Army recruiter, and one that was doing said recruiting during the bad old days of the height of the Iraq war, in a sad way, I am not truly all that shocked by seeing this.

During the 2005/2008 period recruiting was so bad, we would enlist anyone who would pass muster in order to make numbers, and when you work in an area that is known for its Neo-Nazi organisations - and your superiors inform you the only way to get out of the 8 in the morning to midnight or later shifts Mon-Sat was to ignore those associations - provided that there was no legal issues - and put them in uniform, and we had similar issues in the gang areas of the larger cities.

Gang/Extremist infiltration of the US Armed forces is a known problem, and only since the economy went to the crapper have Recruiting been able to turn those sorts away.

Kinda sad it took the recession to allow better recruits to enter service instead of whatever we could drag out of the gutter.

[copeab]

The man who claims to have "outed" the photo gives his reasons why here:

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/exclusive-marines-nazi-flag-whistleblower-talks

[waiting4something]

Oh my god. :rolleyes: Leave it up to some holocaust extremist to blow everything out of proportion. The sig runes being a symbol of the holocaust? mmmmmmmmm I don't think so. He was in the cav and wore a stetson, ok so did Custer and a lot of dudes that tried to "extreminate" the natives. Hello pot this is kettle.:D I hate guys like this. They are right up there with with the Mothers of America and Al Sharpton. I wish Marine Corps told him to piss off and hung up the phone.

[simonmark6]

Sorry, but in my opinion, the Holocaust was rather extreme, and the SS sigils are pretty much up there as symbols of the systematic extermination of millions of people in a far closer manner than a stetson is with the extermination of the Native Americans.

I think you were right Waiting, it's time this thread was shut down before we go back over ground that has already caused offence.

[waiting4something]

No, I don't think it should be shut down. Talking about this is good. It explains reasoning from all sides. I don't see why someone should be offended. There's no degrading of anyone going on really. It's hot topic. It's big bockbuster shit. It always is.:argue:

[Raellus]

Oh my god. :rolleyes: Leave it up to some holocaust extremist to blow everything out of proportion. The sig runes being a symbol of the holocaust? mmmmmmmmm I don't think so. He was in the cav and wore a stetson, ok so did Custer and a lot of dudes that tried to "extreminate" the natives. Hello pot this is kettle.:D I hate guys like this. They are right up there with with the Mothers of America and Al Sharpton. I wish Marine Corps told him to piss off and hung up the phone.

I was hoping to keep this discussion going in a constructive direction but this is starting to get silly. WFS, your posts are starting to smack of Holocaust Denial. You are welcome to share your dissenting opinions here, but the Holocaust and wider Nazi attrocities and the participation of SS troops in both are backed by mountains- literally mountains- of evidence.

Let's get real and address this topic in a mature, responsible way, or this thread will be shut down.

[Grimace]

Part of the problem I see with that article from the guy who blew the whistle on the thing is that he seems to want military careers to end over this. That, in my opinion, is silly. So they used a flag with SS on it. Did they violate any rules? Did they torture anyone? Did they needlessly kill people who shouldn't have been killed? No.

If the flag is a hot topic for too many, take the flag away or tell the unit to pick a new design. Careers shouldn't end of the display of a flag, even one with a runic SS on it. Will the Marines call bullshit? Most likely. But when political correctness is running the show, that's what the military has to do. Maybe the Commandant of the Marine Corps needs to address the troops and tell them to clean their nose, spit shine their shoes, and sharpen their gig lines for a while. Keep clean while all of the attention is directed on their every little action. Then, when (as usually happens) public opinion forgets about the military, they can go back to the old ways.

I almost hate to think what would happen if the public ever saw some of the symbols used by other special forces.

[Webstral]

Careers shouldn't end over this act of poor judgment. However, some pee-pees should be slapped. The unit should be told that they have to get rid of all Nazi-inspired regalia. Ideally, the Corps will release a public statement by the unit leadership to the effect that they never intended for the American public or the people of the world to assume that they or any part of the USMC incorporates any of the values of Nazi Germany. Then we can move on.

As to the recruiting woes, I agree that we're faced with a real cultural problem. By bringing some of our society's undesirables into the fold for a single enlistment, we create problems for civil society down the road. Training with guns, and all that.

While I'm not willing to take on any of the baggage of the whistle-blower, I will say that association with the Holocaust is damning. Willing, I'll try to put the problem in personal terms in the hopes that you will understand why this particular act of free expression is such a problem for so many. The Nazis were hard-core racists. Racism was built into the ideology. My wife, being black and Asian, is about as far from the Nazi ideal as possible. American Neo-Nazis today, using the same scheme of symbols as the Marines in the photo, proudly proclaim their willingness to follow in the footsteps of the SS and murder their fellow Americans for being black, Asian, Hispanic, First Tribes, Arabic, or whatever. By Nazi standards, my children are mongrels. The Nazis would very happily throw my wife and children into the ovens. By their own admission, so would current American Neo-Nazis. I'm a blood traitor, so I'd get similar treatment. Now the USMC, which is supposed to be champion of the Constitution and the American way of life, appears to be tolerant of a nest of Neo-Nazis in its ranks. Do you see the problem? This isn't a matter of a white guy using the n-word in public. This is a question of values. What exactly do these Marines stand for? If the Corps doesn't deal with the problem expediently, then tens of millions of non-white and mixed-race Americans are obliged to ask whether it's their USMC or just the USMC of the Aryan-Americans and whoever among the white population they deem worthy of having a future.

[ShadoWarrior]

It was a joke.I got that it was a joke. Just one in bad taste, and rife with logical fallacies that screamed to be pointed out.

[ShadoWarrior]

Now the USMC, which is supposed to be champion of the Constitution and the American way of life, appears to be tolerant of a nest of Neo-Nazis in its ranks. Do you see the problem?Some people can't see the problem, and never will. No matter how succinctly or eloquently it's explained to them. For them, it's either a joke, an exaggeration (how the hell do you 'exaggerate' millions of corpses?), or just plain didn't happen (clue: Photoshop didn't exist in 1945; the pictures and testimony are real). Facts (and reality) conflict with their cherished notions of what they'd like the world to be.

[boogiedowndonovan]

I'm not going to rehash the arguments already made by posters who can and have done so more eloquently than I can.

but supposedly the runic SS logo has been in use by USMC scout snipers for some time now, have there never been any USMC scout snipers of Jewish descent?

[waiting4something]

I was hoping to keep this discussion going in a constructive direction but this is starting to get silly. WFS, your posts are starting to smack of Holocaust Denial. You are welcome to share your dissenting opinions here, but the Holocaust and wider Nazi attrocities and the participation of SS troops in both are backed by mountains- literally mountains- of evidence.

Let's get real and address this topic in a mature, responsible way, or this thread will be shut down.

Where did I say the Holocaust didn't happen? Sure it happened and there was personel from the SS formations involved, but that doesn't not make everyone or everything dealing with the SS about the Holocaust. Yes this guy was/is a Holocaust extremist. He eats, sleeps, and shits Holocaust. That is my point. I don't subscribe to the "its ok for these guys to do this, but not these guys over here" camp. Waffen SS were combat troops. It's the media that has lumped them all in the same block cheese and we have swallowed that misconception time and time again.

[Fusilier]

I got that it was a joke. Just one in bad taste, and rife with logical fallacies that screamed to be pointed out.

Well that's just too bad, because I thought it was funny, irregardless of the poor logic - which was the point of the humor.

[waiting4something]

I'm not going to rehash the arguments already made by posters who can and have done so more eloquently than I can.

but supposedly the runic SS logo has been in use by USMC scout snipers for some time now, have there never been any USMC scout snipers of Jewish descent?

Yes, I remember one from the 7th he was I guess a bad ass- a arrogant dickhead, but they said he was a machine. I never saw a black Marine in STA platoon, but I'm sure there is one out there. Asian I seen and latino too. The Marine Corps in general is white and latino heavy for whatever reason. The sig runes have nothing to do with racist beliefs for these men. It's more a bad ass thing. A killer elite if you will. Snipers install fear and apparently so does sig runes.

[Targan]

Snipers install fear and apparently so does sig runes.

Really? For me the SS runes instill revulsion, not fear.

[Raellus]

WTF, you and I might know what the Waffen SS was, and how they were distinct than the SS that ran the death camps, but the general public does not. Symbols often transcend their origins and, for better or for worse, the SS lightening bolt runes are inseparably linked to the Holocaust, mass murder, and genocide. If you don't understand this, or refuse to accept it, then there's no more that anyone here can say that will convice you of the foolishness and bad taste (...at best; rank racism/anti-semitism at worst) shown by these Marines who chose to use the SS runes as their unofficial symbol.

To those who keep asserting that the Marine scout snipers have been using this symbol "for years", once again, what are you basing this on?

[Legbreaker]

It's the media that has lumped them all in the same block cheese and we have swallowed that misconception time and time again.

Maybe it is a misconception, but it's the way the vast majority of the population of this planet we all live on perceive it to be. The true reality has little to do with it.

And because of that perception, the symbols associated with the Nazi regime MUST be treated carefully and NOT applied to units, entities and situations that don't want to be lumped into the same group of evil.

Anyone who can't, or refuses to see the truth of the situation is just asking for trouble.

[waiting4something]

Maybe it is a misconception, but it's the way the vast majority of the population of this planet we all live on perceive it to be. The true reality has little to do with it.

And because of that perception, the symbols associated with the Nazi regime MUST be treated carefully and NOT applied to units, entities and situations that don't want to be lumped into the same group of evil.

Anyone who can't, or refuses to see the truth of the situation is just asking for trouble.

Well, then the world needs to learn the truth, instead of jump on the bandwagon of misconcept. It could also be said for people that dispell the Holocaust. If it wasn't for self thought and studying we still think the colonization was a cute story with John Smith banging Pocahontas and Pilgrims and Indians eating a Thanksgiving turkey. If people keep drinking the coolade it will lead nowhere but down.

[waiting4something]

WTF, you and I might know what the Waffen SS was, and how they were distinct than the SS that ran the death camps, but the general public does not. Symbols often transcend their origins and, for better or for worse, the SS lightening bolt runes are inseparably linked to the Holocaust, mass murder, and genocide. If you don't understand this, or refuse to accept it, then there's no more that anyone here can say that will convice you of the foolishness and bad taste (...at best; rank racism/anti-semitism at worst) shown by these Marines who chose to use the SS runes as their unofficial symbol.

To those who keep asserting that the Marine scout snipers have been using this symbol "for years", once again, what are you basing this on?

I know they used to use them before I was even in. A relative told me of this practice who was in during the early 90's. And this picture confirms that they still must be doing this years after my leaving the Marine Corps. So yeah, it's been there a while and no jews or other non ayrans have been gased or put into ovens. What has this do gooder whistle blower done............. nothing of value.

[waiting4something]

I bet alot of jihadists see western troops as racists or culturally insensitive to muslims. And I would bet a lot of western troops are with or without merit this very thing. But that doesn't mean everyone or symbol associated with this should be seen as such. The guilty by association belief doesn't always turn out so true. It just makes it easier for us to look at our on faces in mirror when we make snap decisions that need justification.

[Targan]

I know they used to use them before I was even in. A relative told me of this practice who was in during the early 90's. And this picture confirms that they still must be doing this years after my leaving the Marine Corps. So yeah, it's been there a while and no jews or other non ayrans have been gased or put into ovens.

Well if nothing else this discussion has shown that some people think the use of the SS rune symbol by US Marines is a matter of concern and others do not. For those of us who think it's a concern, hearing that the SS runes have been used by some Marines for many years doesn't make us think "oh, well, if they've been using it for years it's all ok then, forget my previous objections". For me all it does is make me wonder how the hell it was allowed to continue for so long without someone with some authority putting a stop to it.

What has this do gooder whistle blower done............. nothing of value.

I (and I suspect a majority of members here) would clearly disagree with you that nothing of value has come out of this situation being dealt with. I think putting a stop to the use of the SS runes by USMC scout/snipers is of great value. And the use of the term "do-gooder" as a pejorative term has confused me for a long time. I admit that I'm a bit of a lefty and definitely what most Americans would term a 'liberal' so maybe that's why I almost always find that the actions of those termed 'do-gooder' by those of a more right-wing bent tend to be actions that I agree with. The part that confuses me is why you'd use those two words as a derogatory term? What is inherently wrong with trying to do good?

I don't know anything about that Dr Beorn guy other than what's written in the article that copeab posted a link to but even if he is some kind of Holocaust obsessive, I didn't find anything wrong with the statements the article quotes him as making. He specifically said he isn't calling for heads to roll or court martials to be instigated for those in the photo. He said the strongest measures he'd like to see taken against them were non-judicial punishment and some remedial education. Help me out here, what am I missing? Why are any of those statements unreasonable?

[Legbreaker]

Well, then the world needs to learn the truth, instead of jump on the bandwagon of misconcept.

Yeah, good luck with that. Personally I'll content myself with not bashing my brains out on the brick wall of impossibility thanks.
I know they used to use them before I was even in. A relative told me of this practice who was in during the early 90's.

That just goes to show it's an ingrained problem that's been going on far, far too long in the shadows. It doesn't make it right.

By itself it's just a couple of squiggles and there's nothing wrong with that. BUT it's got one hell of a load of baggage which isn't going to diminish for another few generations. THAT's where the problem lies. What people associate with the symbols isn't going to change in our lifetimes and, has been said time and time again both here in this forum and in the world generally, allowances must be made accordingly.

[Ironside]

The difference between the Waffen SS and the Allgemeine (or General) SS is not clear cut. SS Division 3 Totenkopf was formed from concentration camp guards and its original commander Theodor Eicke was previously Head of the Concentration Camp Inspectorate. Also Waffen SS personel were sometimes posted to camp guard duty while convalesent or as a punishment.

[waiting4something]

Yeah, good luck with that. Personally I'll content myself with not bashing my brains out on the brick wall of impossibility thanks.


That just goes to show it's an ingrained problem that's been going on far, far too long in the shadows. It doesn't make it right.

By itself it's just a couple of squiggles and there's nothing wrong with that. BUT it's got one hell of a load of baggage which isn't going to diminish for another few generations. THAT's where the problem lies. What people associate with the symbols isn't going to change in our lifetimes and, has been said time and time again both here in this forum and in the world generally, allowances must be made accordingly.

Well I am not gonna disagree on the fact that people like to not consider the possiblity of what has been shoved down their throats their whole lives is not actually the truth. And yeah as long some guy like Mr. Do Gooder is around to preach his version of what is morally right, it won't go away.

[waiting4something]

Targan do you really believe that all that is gonna happen to these STA members is gonna be some reeducation "camp" or a NJP? I don't think so. Now that this dope has put this out in the media the Marine Corps will try to distance themselves as fast and as far as they can. They will fucking derail these guys. This clown that that ratted them out knows this too. He may try to look like he's such a noble hereo, but he is just a wolf in sheeps clothing none the less. And NJP's really aren't a good thing in record book. It's not like it's just parking ticket. Good intentions hhhhmmmmmm. Good intentions are what the road to hell is paved with.

[waiting4something]

The difference between the Waffen SS and the Allgemeine (or General) SS is not clear cut. SS Division 3 Totenkopf was formed from concentration camp guards and its original commander Theodor Eicke was previously Head of the Concentration Camp Inspectorate. Also Waffen SS personel were sometimes posted to camp guard duty while convalesent or as a punishment.

I will not dispute that Waffen SS members at Camps. They were some, but that no way makes it accurate to make the entire Waffen SS as mad man hell bent immoral practices, like so many people believe.

[Ironside]

That's true; and indeed towards the end of the war many surplus Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine personel was drafted en-masse into the Waffen SS.

The trouble is, that while people who have studied the subject know that truth is rarely simple, the Man on the Clapham Omnibus (or American equivalent), doesn't. Unfortunately in the current educational and intellectual climate he's unlikely to want to find out either.

My opinion though, is that the original photo-session is at best, an error of judgement.

[Grimace]

Now there's even more people "on the bandwagon". I saw an article this morning that talked about a growing public outcry over a combat post in Afghanistan named "Aryan".

The Military Religious Freedom Front (MRFF) has started smearing the Army now, claiming they have soldiers from the U.S. and from Afghanistan that have complained about a combat post named Aryan. An official complaint was lodged against the military, who looked into the matter and released a statement saying that there was no ISAF combat base by that name. They did say that the Afghanis have a combat outpost named Arian, and went on to explain that the Afghanis also have a news outlet and an airlines named Arian. There are also Arian tribes in the general geographic region.

The MRFF has said that the military's response was "inadequate".

Of course, in the article, they mentioned several times about the "Marines that displayed a flag that appeared to be from the SS". Pretty safe to assume that every little misconception is going to be blown way out of proportion now.

Even when our military doesn't do anything, they still get blamed for being politically incorrect. Only this time, it's the Army and not the Marines.

[copeab]

I've thought this over for a few days and come to the opinion that this was very poor judgment on the part of the Marines involved. While I think that can be forgiven for enlisted/junior NCOs, it can't be tolerated in senior NCOs or officers. I'm not saying they should go to prison but I don't think their careers should last longer. Those in positions of leadership must show better judgment than was exercised here.

[cavtroop]

tangentially related: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/02/army-combat-outpost-aryan-sparks-outrage-021312w/

*faceplam*

[copeab]

Unless some soldier deliberately changed 'Arian' to 'Aryan' I'd tell the foundation to bugger off.

[cavtroop]

Unless some soldier deliberately changed 'Arian' to 'Aryan' I'd tell the foundation to bugger off.

yes, but its the LAST thing the military needs hitting the front page right now.

[Raellus]

Waiting For Something, your argument that the Waffen SS "wasn't so bad" seems to overlook several very troubling facts. The Waffen SS were involved in numerous war crimes unrelated to the death camps. The Malmedy massacre is the most famous example here in the U.S. There are several other notable examples as well. IIRC, 12th SS Panzer Division (Hitler Jugend) troops massacred a score of Canadian prisoners in Normandy. The 2nd SS Panzer Division (Das Reich) also massacred hundreds of French civilians on their way to Normandy as "reprisals" for Resistance sabotage attacks). And finally, Waffen SS units routinely participated in the unlawful killing of Soviet prisoners and civilians on the Ostfront.

Although not ALL individual Waffen SS men participated in war crimes, the Waffen SS organization as a whole is not without taint. To claim that the Waffen SS was above the sort of barbarity routinely displayed by the camp guard SS or Sonderkommando units is completely disingenous.

And I'm sorry but "my buddy told that the scout snipers have been using the SS runes for a long time" is just not credible.

[Legbreaker]

Okay, I'm just going to come out and say what I'm sure plenty of others are thinking. It appears a poster or two may have nazi leanings or at least be a nazi appologist.
Maybe it's just me, maybe it's just the way they've expressed themselves, but it's an impression I at least have been getting.

If true, it's not really a surprise. After all, this is a community of people with an interest in warfare and killing and all that which goes with it. We're bound to attract the odd nut from time to time.
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to express themselves either. They, just like everyone else only need to back up their arguements with checkable facts and evidence.

And if worst comes to worst, there's always the block feature.

[copeab]

yes, but its the LAST thing the military needs hitting the front page right now.

True, but I'm not the military so I can tell them to sod off :)

[waiting4something]

Waiting For Something, your argument that the Waffen SS "wasn't so bad" seems to overlook several very troubling facts. The Waffen SS were involved in numerous war crimes unrelated to the death camps. The Malmedy massacre is the most famous example here in the U.S. There are several other notable examples as well. IIRC, 12th SS Panzer Division (Hitler Jugend) troops massacred a score of Canadian prisoners in Normandy. The 2nd SS Panzer Division (Das Reich) also massacred hundreds of French civilians on their way to Normandy as "reprisals" for Resistance sabotage attacks). And finally, Waffen SS units routinely participated in the unlawful killing of Soviet prisoners and civilians on the Ostfront.

Although not ALL individual Waffen SS men participated in war crimes, the Waffen SS organization as a whole is not without taint. To claim that the Waffen SS was above the sort of barbarity routinely displayed by the camp guard SS or Sonderkommando units is completely disingenous.

You show me a military that has not commented some type of bad act. I bet you can't. You keep coming at me like I have said the Waffen SS were some kind of angels that never did some bad stuff. I never once said that. I merely pointed the fact they have along with everyone else it's just everyone makes a huge deal out of them while giving everyone less lightning on the stage.

And I'm sorry but "my buddy told that the scout snipers have been using the SS runes for a long time" is just not credible.

While Raellus on that last comment all I can say is I was not doing interviews on research on matter. I simply do not see it as a big and don't really care. If I would have know some guy named Raellus years later would be so upset and want to doubt my story I would have built a case file for you.:rolleyes:

[waiting4something]

Okay, I'm just going to come out and say what I'm sure plenty of others are thinking. It appears a poster or two may have nazi leanings or at least be a nazi appologist.
Maybe it's just me, maybe it's just the way they've expressed themselves, but it's an impression I at least have been getting.

If true, it's not really a surprise. After all, this is a community of people with an interest in warfare and killing and all that which goes with it. We're bound to attract the odd nut from time to time.
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to express themselves either. They, just like everyone else only need to back up their arguements with checkable facts and evidence.

And if worst comes to worst, there's always the block feature.

Let me guess I'm a Nazi appologist.:rolleyes: Just because I don't run with the crowd and say what is the PC thing to say. Everyone today is supposed to go "Oh my god" the SS is so evil." " A evil like that has never existed ever before.":confused: How the in the world are they any worse they any group that has done horrible things in the past, present, or future. That is my point. How they fail to see this I have know idea?:confused: Of course through out life people have been shown the evils of Nazi Germany in the spotlight. Was there evils there, yeah fuckin A there was, but for some reason they are the only ones that take the brunt. They are like the Charles Mansion on evil military doings. There maybe be bigger slaughters that happen but everyone only remembers there name.
Maybe it's because the SS was such sharp dressers? tThe black uniforms, skulls, lightning bolts, jack boots, etc. Maybe it was all the experiments on people or new equipment? And watch out he's a really dangerous comment I will make. Maybe it's, because Hollywood keeps the thing alive. Alot of of Hollywoods elite are Jewish. Oh my god I said it. But yeah people of Jewish faith where targets of the Nazi system, so of course they will keep it alive and focus more on that then anything else. How's that for pc? My point is just because a system has bad people doesn't mean the system is a whole is bad. For some reason people can't deal with that fact. I don't appolize anymore for one bad apple over the other. Unfortunately that is not the case with others.

[Targan]

So basically you're saying that the Nazis were naughty but no naughtier than lots of other people and in any case were terribly misunderstood? I'm not sure if humour was what you were aiming for, waiting4something, but you've given me a belly laugh on an otherwise boring day for me so I thank you! :D

[waiting4something]

Yes that's right they were naughty just like a lot of groups in history. Misunderstood? What do you mean by that you Jolly old soul?:p

[Ironside]

I don't know if I am thought a Nazi (or at least SS) apologist. As it happens, I'm not. I have studied the subject somewhat and I like to get facts across as well as I can.

The Waffen SS routinely committed atrocities; apart from those already mentioned, British soldiers were massacred at Esquelbecq/Wormhout and Le Paradise in 1940. The sum total of murders committed by them will doubtless never be known. Not every individual member of the SS took part in such things, but the organisation most certainly did.

Please remember also, that it wasn't just the Jewish people who suffered. Gypsies, homosexuals, the disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses, political opponents and anybody the Nazis didn't like very much were exterminated too.

What makes the Nazis different from previous tyrannies was that they controlled a modern, 20th century industrialised society and their extermination campaign was carried out on an industrial scale using industrial methods.

The Nazis irrevocably altered world history and this needs to be studied and remembered if only to try and stop it from happening again.

[Fusilier]

The Waffen SS routinely committed atrocities; apart from those already mentioned, British soldiers were massacred at Esquelbecq/Wormhout and Le Paradise in 1940. The sum total of murders committed by them will doubtless never be known. Not every individual member of the SS took part in such things, but the organisation most certainly did.

I think mentioning the shooting of prisoners by the SS is only going to invoke a response that lists off the times when allied troops massacred unarmed prisoners or civilians in equally cold blood. The nazi regime, and therefore the SS, can be criticized for their ruthless barbarity easily enough without such references.

Otherwise this will be going in an endless spiral... even more so than it is now.

[Raellus]

Waiting for Something,

No one is saying that the SS was the most evil military organization in history. Many, many others have committed terrible attrocities. I could go on and on and on with example after example. That's not the argument here.

The argument that I am trying to make is that the SS, as an organization, was pretty awful and should not be lauded or celebrated by the fighting men and women of the United States, a nation instrumental in the downfall of the Nazi regime/war machine.

Your argument appears to be that the SS are simply misunderstood and are being treated unfairly by us "politically correct" types. In your reply to Legbreaker, you imply that the Nazis/SS did some good things and that, taken as a whole, the good the Nazis did outweighs the bad. Is that a fair characterization of your point? What, may I ask, are the good things that they did? I'm curious.

[Eddie]

What, may I ask, are the good things that they did? I'm curious.

They had great bonfires.

Books! I'm talking about the books!

[Fusilier]

What, may I ask, are the good things that they did? I'm curious.

Made cool uniforms ja!

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/572/1296004159787.jpg

Sorry Rae... I know you are trying to have a serious conversation.

[copeab]

Made cool uniforms ja!


Remember, the side with the better uniforms loses ;)

[Legbreaker]

Yes, many, MANY other entities have committed attrocities of varying horror, however as far as I am aware, only the Nazis (and perhaps USSR) made a concerted effort to specifically wipe out an entire ethnicity with clinical and industrial precision.
We can indeed abhore the actions carried out by others, but only the nazis deserve 100% of our revulsion and loathing.
By comparison, people like Charles Manson barely got their toes wet in the shallow end of the kiddies paddling pool.

The question of this thread should be simple. Should the US Marines be using insignia which can at best be mistaken as that of another unit guilty of some of the most heinous crimes against humanity - or not?
My answer - HELL NO!!!

[micromachine]

Hello All;

I enjoy the commentary on this site in general, however, I am finding this somewhat offensive. Cooler heads need to prevail on this, as we all have polarized opinions on the subject of "SS" runes and the morality of soldiers and the command structure. That it has garnered this much attention is disturbing enough. Let's just say that elite forces tend to try and emulate other elite forces and move on.

Just my opinion!

[Webstral]

Micromachine, on almost any other subject I'd endorse your advise about moving on. The presence of Nazi symbology in the US military is a subject on which I cannot agree to disagree, for all the reasons I have already given. If put into practice in the US, the Nazi philosophy would mean the end of the American way of life and the end of life for tens of millions of Americans. Regardless of motivation, we cannot tolerate open Nazi hero worship and/or emulation in the US military. If these guys want to be like the SS, they are in the wrong military. If they simply admire the fighting prowess of the SS (which is very understandable), they need to find a way of expressing themselves in a way that does not juxtapose the national colors and Nazi symbols.

[manunancy]

I'lm wondering what kind of reaction would have be caused by a display of soviet-related iconography. Unlikely since they're generaly viewed as losers, but I'm curious.

[micromachine]

Hey Webstral;

I agree with you, however, we are dealing with a different sort here. Let us all remember that soldiers are not the same as average people. They are volunteers for the most part who are at peak strength and conditioning, who are taught they are "supermen" from basic training onwards. I know that is not in any field manual, but let us be honest. No military wants the soldiers to be a collection of worry warts and politically correct hole punchers, as this will lead to conflict. Once again, I do not condone this activity, however I can see the attraction to it by young soldiers who probably are not totally aware of the meaning of the symbology.
Look at some of the legendary figures of US soldiery(or any countries military) and I am sure you will see at least some of the "dark side" of these figures has helped make them legends in the first place.
As for Soviet area icons in the military, look at the NTC training units. They use modified US pattern gear ( to look like the real deal), captured or purchased equipment, and not to mention Soviet style tactics. Taken out of context, that would look like an endorsement of the same!

[waiting4something]

Waiting for Something,

No one is saying that the SS was the most evil military organization in history. Many, many others have committed terrible attrocities. I could go on and on and on with example after example. That's not the argument here.

The argument that I am trying to make is that the SS, as an organization, was pretty awful and should not be lauded or celebrated by the fighting men and women of the United States, a nation instrumental in the downfall of the Nazi regime/war machine.

Your argument appears to be that the SS are simply misunderstood and are being treated unfairly by us "politically correct" types. In your reply to Legbreaker, you imply that the Nazis/SS did some good things and that, taken as a whole, the good the Nazis did outweighs the bad. Is that a fair characterization of your point? What, may I ask, are the good things that they did? I'm curious.

I am not saying that bad actions by any group should be over looked over another. The nazi's just get this spot light, because they are the token or popular bad guys of history. So it's always Nazi this Nazi that.:D Nobody evers says Khmer Rouge this Khmer Rouge that. They just aren't popular enough. I know your thinking "wow" how could you make commit like that, but that is how people judge things by. If you don't get the converage, you don't get the votes. Good things that the SS did? They killed Russians of course!;) But on a more serious note, they where some hard ass fighters and had a war mongor type idealism to them which would and does appeal to a young man that wish to go out and kill. Take away some of the racial tone of the Nazi Germany and you have a society any war mongor could be proud of.

[ShadoWarrior]

Look at some of the legendary figures of US soldiery(or any countries military) and I am sure you will see at least some of the "dark side" of these figures has helped make them legends in the first place.Name a legendary US military officer of the 20th century who had an evil, tyrannical, genocidal trait. Go on...

[waiting4something]

Yes, many, MANY other entities have committed attrocities of varying horror, however as far as I am aware, only the Nazis (and perhaps USSR) made a concerted effort to specifically wipe out an entire ethnicity with clinical and industrial precision.
We can indeed abhore the actions carried out by others, but only the nazis deserve 100% of our revulsion and loathing.
By comparison, people like Charles Manson barely got their toes wet in the shallow end of the kiddies paddling pool.

The question of this thread should be simple. Should the US Marines be using insignia which can at best be mistaken as that of another unit guilty of some of the most heinous crimes against humanity - or not?
My answer - HELL NO!!!

My reference to Charlie Mansion was used to show that he is the most popular. Everyone knows the name, maybe not what the story behind him was, but they know the name. You say names like John Wayne Gacy, Richard Speck, or Richard Ramirez half the people look at you like they must be some forgotten about actor that recently appeared on dancing with the stars. Of course Richard Ramirez does have a slick sound to it and John Wayne Gacy does have the whole John Wayne thing going for him.

[waiting4something]

Name a legendary US military officer of the 20th century who had an evil, tyrannical, genocidal trait. Go on...

2ND LT William Calley of the My Lai Massacre is the easiest that comes to mind. Sure it was only 22 people, but sometimes you have to take baby steps. Gerenal Macarther aka "dug out Doug" was all for nuking the shit out of everything and leaving his own personel to rot. General Curtis Lemay was another one that had no probelm with doing a Nuclear Holocaust.

[Fusilier]

Name a legendary US military officer of the 20th century who had an evil, tyrannical, genocidal trait. Go on...

General Jacob "kill everyone over the age of ten" Smith demonstrated such a trait in the the Filipino campaigns during the early part of that century. He wasn't alone either.

[Legbreaker]

The Khmer Rouge are a good example of evil, but even though they decimated their own country and managed to kill a sizable percentage in a short time, they didn't exactly industrialise it like the nazis, nor did they wage war on an entire continent and import victims. They were also a fairly unsophisticated and unskilled lot who I'm sure nobody looks up to (even the nutcases). They certainly didn't have any elite units or insignia anyone wants, or is able to copy like the SS (which is what this thread is really all about).

Evil in any form should not be glorified, and that includes the use of their symbols, wherever they may come from. What the marines in question did is just plain wrong and there's no defending them. Whether or not those in the photo were aware of the significance (and I'm sure at least some were) somebody around them certainly would have, and should have slapped them all over the back of their collective heads for the idiots they were.

[Eddie]

Name a legendary US military officer of the 20th century who had an evil, tyrannical, genocidal trait. Go on...

I really hate absolutist statements like this, because as a couple posts after this one did, many isolated individuals can be held as an example of having one of those traits.

Let's narrow the constraints a little with an addendum of displaying those traits and subsequently being condoned or lauded by even half of the United States' population.

Calley? He's generally seen as a weak, immoral leader who fell victim to his own poor command climate. And subsequently punished.

MacArthur? Why didn't he carry through that course of action? Because of popular opinion and the desire not to glow in the dark for 500 years.

Generals Lemay and Smith? I don't think they meet the metric of 'legendary US military officer' but for argument's sake, cooler heads prevailed in the former and the scope of Smith's influence was very small.

[ShadoWarrior]

General Jacob "kill everyone over the age of ten" Smith demonstrated such a trait in the the Filipino campaigns during the early part of that century. He wasn't alone either.Wrong century, and he's not a "legendary US military officer". But thank you for mentioning him. I've learned something today, at least.

[Fusilier]

Generals Lemay and Smith? I don't think they meet the metric of 'legendary US military officer' but for argument's sake, cooler heads prevailed in the former and the scope of Smith's influence was very small.

Regarding Smith and others like him in the Philippines, I'd have to disagree.

[ShadoWarrior]

MacArthur? Why didn't he carry through that course of action? Because of popular opinion and the desire not to glow in the dark for 500 yearsNow there's someone who is considered "legendary". As is Lemay. MacAuthur, for all his faults, including his arrogance in thinking that he could go up against the POTUS in a public argument and win, has been proven right in hindsight. Had the US dropped nukes along the Chinese-NK border (or further into China), we'd likely not have a nuclear armed NK today -- or any NK at all. We'd have won the Korean War. And we might never have had the Vietnam War. At that time the USSR lacked the means to deliver nukes to the US. Europe, OTOH, might have borne the consequences of Mac's idea. Which is why Truman didn't stand up to the Chinese-Soviet aggression. So, for the sake of Europe, the world has had to put up with NK madness, and a China that thinks it can push its neighbors around without consequences, for over half a century.

[Fusilier]

Wrong century, and he's not a "legendary US military officer". But thank you for mentioning him. I've learned something today, at least.

I'm not sure how 1902 is not part of that century. I'm also now wondering why that really makes much of a difference even if it wasn't.

He may not be legendary in your sense, but he is in others.

You are welcome.

[Eddie]

He may not be legendary in your sense, but he is in others.

You are welcome.

Regardless of his fame status, he was court-martialed for the incident according to the very first paragraph of his Wikipedia entry. Not exactly celebrated and decorated. And the circumstances are a bit different than that of the Nazi hatred based on race. So the point still kind of stands, that yes, we have people who are overzealous in the performance of their duties at best, war criminals at worst; but the majority of our society and the regulatory agencies thereof, propogate ethical behavior and punish violators.

EDIT: Or not. I should have read the remainder of the Wikipedia article to see what he was court-martialed for. The red sentence should be the real takeaway, though.

[Fusilier]

Regardless of his fame status, he was court-martialed for the incident according to the very first paragraph of his Wikipedia entry. Not exactly celebrated and decorated.

I didn't infer that he was celebrated and decorated. Only that he made a name for himself based on being a general who had "an evil, tyrannical, genocidal trait."

There is a reason why he was court-martialed.

And the circumstances are a bit different than that of the Nazi hatred based on race.

Race certainly was a factor in the Filipino campaign. Reading the reports and accounts, you come across nigger and savage more times than I care to count. They may not all be from Smith, but the overwhelming reference to niggers and savages strongly suggests that the soldiers in the Philippines were basing race on their actions against the local populace.

So the point still kind of stands, that yes, we have people who are overzealous in the performance of their duties at best, war criminals at worst; but the majority of our society and the regulatory agencies thereof, proogate ethical behavior and punish violators.

I never suggested differently. This wasn't an attack on the United States military. It was a response to a question asking for evidence of a general showing "an evil, tyrannical, genocidal trait". I am in no way suggesting that the actions in the Philippines represents the whole of the US army and marines, but that there certainly were people, who in contrary to the original question, existed.

[simonmark6]

And that is pretty much the crux of why many of us see using the Sig runes as the thin end of the wedge if not challenged. The US military holds itself to the highest ethical standards and I respect them for that. Any degradation of these standards is something to be rooted out in my opinion and thus my concern.

Saying that, "Hey, these boys aren't buying into the politics of the symbol just the warrior ethos." Is, in my opinion dangerous, because it opens the door up to saying that other aspects of the SS are also acceptable. This is not acceptable in an institution that protects the ideals of Western Society.

[Eddie]

And that is pretty much the crux of why many of us see using the Sig runes as the thin end of the wedge if not challenged. The US military holds itself to the highest ethical standards and I respect them for that. Any degradation of these standards is something to be rooted out in my opinion and thus my concern.

Saying that, "Hey, these boys aren't buying into the politics of the symbol just the warrior ethos." Is, in my opinion dangerous, because it opens the door up to saying that other aspects of the SS are also acceptable. This is not acceptable in an institution that protects the ideals of Western Society.

I've deliberately avoided weighing in on the photos and the reported use of COP 'Aryan'/Arian. However, my posting concerning Smith and the emphasis should be enough for you to infer my feelings on the situation.

[Eddie]

I didn't infer that he was celebrated and decorated.

'Legendary' does imply that. 'Infamous' may be more of what you are looking for, but the words do have completely different connotations.

Race certainly was a factor in the Filipino campaign. Reading the reports and accounts, you come across nigger and savage more times than I care to count. They may not all be from Smith, but the overwhelming reference to niggers and savages strongly suggests that the soldiers in the Philippines were basing race on their actions against the local populace.

At a time in US history when those words were as common as spitting. Don't take the snapshot out of context. We still had a segregated military, segregated society, and rampant racism at that time. Faulting him for using 'nigger' and 'savages' is like faulting him for using a Whites-Only bathroom. Anything else would have been unheard of.

The reaction was based on the slaughter of 40 of his soldiers.

The dehumanization that allowed the reaction was based on the racism of the time.


This wasn't an attack on the United States military.

Nor did I take it as so.

It was a response to a question asking for evidence of a general showing "an evil, tyrannical, genocidal trait".

I am in no way suggesting that the actions in the Philippines represents the whole of the US army and marines, but that there certainly were people, who in contrary to the original question, existed.

However, if you go back throughout history, all cultures' norms and mores have evolved at different times in the lifecycle of said cultures. Military or civilian. Basing a judgment on our behavior and justifying it with a piece of evidence from a different time implies that there has been no progress or education in the time between. Which is solidly not the case.

[Fusilier]

'Legendary' does imply that. 'Infamous' may be more of what you are looking for, but the words do have completely different connotations.

Probably so. However, in the scope of things, I believe it is a moot point... my point anyways.

At a time in US history when those words were as common as spitting. Don't take the snapshot out of context. We still had a segregated military, segregated society, and rampant racism at that time. Faulting him for using 'nigger' and 'savages' is like faulting him for using a Whites-Only bathroom. Anything else would have been unheard of.

The reaction was based on the slaughter of 40 of his soldiers.

The dehumanization that allowed the reaction was based on the racism of the time.

I am aware of the social norms at the time - but I argue that it was these accepted (at the time) beliefs that resulted in poor behavior by soldiers. I also wasn't just referring to that particular massacre, but the campaign against the indigenous people as a whole - which was appallingly criminal.

American military historians' opinions on the Samar campaign are echoed in the February 2011 edition of the US Army's official historical magazine, Army History Bulletin: "...the indiscriminate violence and punishment that U.S. Army and Marine forces under Brig. Gen. Jacob Smith are alleged to have unleashed on Samar have long stained the memory of the United States’ pacification of the Philippine Islands."

Editor's Journal, Army History Bulletin, PB 20-11-2 (No. 79)

However, if you go back throughout history, all cultures' norms and mores have evolved at different times in the lifecycle of said cultures. Military or civilian. Basing a judgment on our behavior and justifying it with a piece of evidence from a different time implies that there has been no progress or education in the time between. Which is solidly not the case.

Morality is generally subjective, but there are some basic moral principals that I believe are objective. The indiscriminate slaughter of unarmed civilians is an example of that.

[Legbreaker]

However, if you go back throughout history, all cultures' norms and mores have evolved at different times in the lifecycle of said cultures. Military or civilian. Basing a judgment on our behavior and justifying it with a piece of evidence from a different time implies that there has been no progress or education in the time between.

And this may go a long way towards why Nazi Germany received more attention for the atrocities committed than the Japanese - the Germans pre-war were cultural world leaders, in the 1930s and 40s Japan was seen as a cultural backwater with much maturing to do. Doesn't make what happened any more acceptable to those they did it to, but it does help explain why their soldiers did it without question.
As a more modern example, take Rwanda and the massacres there within the last generation (1993 I think?). Besides a bit of an outcry at the time, we haven't heard much since. This could be because they're a backwater country with little the west wants from it, and therefore the media resources aren't allocated. The point is though they have more in common with early 20th Century Japan than with Nazi Germany.

[Sanjuro]

What made Nazi Germany unique was not the anti-Semitism, or the other abuses of minorities. The unique thing was the combination of overt Government support, and the deliberate allocation of national resources in pursuit of those abuses.
On a lighter note, snipers' use of the SS runes gives a nice set of visible straight lines, which should make them much easier targets. :cool:

[Fusilier]

On a lighter note, snipers' use of the SS runes gives a nice set of visible straight lines, which should make them much easier targets. :cool:

Absolutely. :D

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4953/usarmycaptainsm1helmetw.jpg

[headquarters]

The Waffen SS were fearsome and highly skilled warriors - no doubt. But everybody with a tad common sense knows that using their symbols incurs condemnation from all sorts of parties. For ex servicemen who had to kill and fight their way from Normandy to the Rhine I guess the image would be disconcerting. Not to mention victims of the Holocaust an nazi oppression
and their relatives.

More likely than not the guys on the pic are fair mix of opinions - I dont think for a sec that they are nazis - they just want to be bad ass. ( Some of them are probably bigots though..)

Anyways - soldiers get caught doing stuff based on poor judgement and in some cases evil intent and unacceptable values.

This will keep on happening. In all armies. We see these things in Norway and other European countries too from time to time. Grunts shooting feral dogs to help locals - but filming it and adding some good trash metal got headlines a few years back. People were appalled for the poor dogs. Nobody gave a second thought to the villagers that could now let their children walk to school without fear of feral dogpacks..

Third reich symbols are a no go - whatever way you look at it.

Waiting for Something,

No one is saying that the SS was the most evil military organization in history. Many, many others have committed terrible attrocities. I could go on and on and on with example after example. That's not the argument here.

The argument that I am trying to make is that the SS, as an organization, was pretty awful and should not be lauded or celebrated by the fighting men and women of the United States, a nation instrumental in the downfall of the Nazi regime/war machine.

Your argument appears to be that the SS are simply misunderstood and are being treated unfairly by us "politically correct" types. In your reply to Legbreaker, you imply that the Nazis/SS did some good things and that, taken as a whole, the good the Nazis did outweighs the bad. Is that a fair characterization of your point? What, may I ask, are the good things that they did? I'm curious.

[Medic]

Having read through this thread, I think I have to comment on some things.

I don't know about the U.S. military, but at least here in Finland any show of political inclination by professional members of the military will land them in hot water with their CO, his CO and possibly with the whole of the military. A Finnish Army officer was actually reprimanded not only by the Army but also by the public opinion after he had stated to the conscripts he was training at the time, in his opinion 'a lesbian', referring to the female President of Finland, Tarja Halonen who used to be the chair person of an organization for sexual equality long before her presidency, had 'no right to be the Commander-in-Chief', which is the official status of the Finnish presidents during their term at the office.

It is not unheard of for Finnish conscripts having been dismissed from the military service (and sent in to the civil service for the rest of their service period) for tattoes of Nazi-affiliation and the like. The similar treatment is given to those visibly tattooed with the insignias of the white-supremecists, who have become a general nuisance in Finland especially due to the refugees from Somalia and other nations, who have a different skin pigmentation compared to the majority of Finnish nationals.

As said before by others in this thread, if symbols like the U.S. flag are important, you can not choose to ignore the SS-runes either. To say, the flying the SS-runes by an USMC unit isn't significant is hypocritical. But then again, choosing to ignore the warcrimes commited by the Allied troops during the WW2 would be hypocritical as well - my history teacher in high school used to say, 'history, like a sausage, has two opposite ends' and 'the history is that which the victor writes it to be as the losing side hardly ever has anything to say about how it is written'.

Having no affiliation what-so-ever with the U.S. military, I am hardly knowledgeable enough of the U.S. code of military justice to say, what kind of a punishment should be given to the particular servicemen and their superiors who failed to act on something that will tarnish the public image of the force. However, anyone using his common sense (which is a diminishing resource in the society these days) will understand, not dealing with that kind of affiliation clearly and with enough transparency will reflect very poorly on the force in question. Being a badass and being stupid is quite far from each other in my book.

As for the Holocaust, I've studied the matter quite a bit and it is a clear example of industrialized genocide against not only those of the Jewish faith but homosexuals, gypsies, political dissidents, mentally ill and other minorities that did not fit the then-popular Racial Science, which was quite rampant in the whole western world at the time. However, the only ones I've seen to use the Holocaust to justify their racistic actions against others is the nation of Israel. By saying this I do not condone the Holocaust at all, on the contrary, nor try to diminish the fates of those murdered by the Nazis. I'm just saying, things aren't that black or white at all times.

Before I go in to the history of Finnish affiliation with the Nazi Germany during WW2, I simply quote Jorge "George" Santayana: 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'.

For a little backround (those who don't want to know the background of my opinion can skip this part), Finland, during the WW2, was allied with the Nazi Germany for a couple of reasons:

The Nazi Germany was a natural choice as it was opposed to the Soviet Union, which was the only enemy nation Finland had and tried to force Finland in to becoming its satellite prior to taking offensive action against Finland after being refused. The Finnish had also a history of co-operation with the Germans during the Finnish Civil War, prior to which, about 2,000 Finns sought military training in the Royal Prussian 27th Jäger Battalion in order to become the backbone of Finnish troops fighting for independence of the nation
During the 1939-1940 part of the conflict (The Winter War), Finland was pretty much alone - only Swedish and Estonian nationals came to Finland's aid in big enough numbers while a number of countries established they "would have come, but the war ended before they could"
During the Nazi operation Barbarossa, Finland shared a common front with the Nazi Germany with some German troops fighting on the Finnish part of the front (mostly in Lapland) and recieved substantial aid from Germany having been declared a war upon by the Allied nations due to the affiliation with Nazi Germany and declaration of war against Soviet Union (which, funny enough, had bombed Finland on several occasions prior to the declaration of war) - the Detachment Kuhlmey of the Luftwaffe actually helped the Finns to stop the Soviet attack at Tali-Ihantala, which was the most intense battle of the war on the Finnish front. This was achieved by the then-president of Finland signing a treaty with the Germany in his own name which enabled the delivery of weapons, planes, tanks and other supplies both military and civilian while promising the Finnish partnership in the war and resigning, which allowed the next president to actually refute the treaty on the part of the Finns
After Finland signed a armistice with the Soviets, the Finns agreed to remove the Germans from the Finnish soil, which led to the Lapland War, in which the Germans burned most of the Lapland while retreating. Also, the Soviets demanded for a trial of a number of Finnish politicians by a war crime tribunal, which was both against the constitution of Finland and the basic principals of any western legistlation. Finland was also forced to relinquish a huge amount of soil to Soviets and rent a part of its still native soil as a military base to the Soviets
The Finns had used the swastika (rotating the other direction and lying on one of its sides rather than on its tip like the one the Nazies used) as an emblem for both its airforce and tanks, a symbol that had been the personal insignia of count Von Rosen, who donated the Finnish Air Force it's first plane (actually, he donated it to the White side of the Finnish Civil War - the Whites were mostly right-wing rich landowner, who supported the idea of monarchic rule while the Red faction was working class, socialists (from lenient social democrats to hard-liner communists) and supporters of an idea about a democraticly led republic. The swastika was banned after the war by the Allies and only returned around the 1990ies in the Finnish Airforce unit flags
1,200 Finns served in the Finnisches Freiwilligen-Bataillon der Waffen-SS between 1941 and 1943, which was practically a lease-unit from Finland in exchange of aid from Germany. They served for a period of two years after which most of them opted to return to Finland and were sent in to various Finnish Army units. Some volunteers had fought in SS-Division Nordland prior to the Finnish Battalion and some stayed in the SS after the majority of Finns returned home. 20% of the recruits sent to Germany in '41 was right-wing affiliated and about 80% had been members of Suojeluskunta, which was a para-military organization run by the State along with the national armed forces


Too bad, there's no spoiler-style option for posting this "appendix". Sorry about that. :rolleyes:

[Legbreaker]

For a little backround (those who don't want to know the background of my opinion can skip this part), Finland, during the WW2, was allied with the Nazi Germany for a couple of reasons:

That's some very interesting info there. Thanks for posting! :)

[Medic]

That's some very interesting info there. Thanks for posting! :)

I could go on for a load of pages, but I suspect, people would get tired of my slightly off-topic rambling. :p

I'll just add that Hitler actually visited Finland to congratulate the Finnish Marschal, Baron Carl Gustav Emil Mannerheim (who had recieved his original officer training in the Russian Tsar's army before the independence and who became the president after the war). Mannerheim despised the little corporal to such a degree, he did not even shake hands with him. And had the pilot of Hitler's Focke-Wulf Condor not been as good as he was, the plane would probably have collided with a factory smokestack on the way to Finland, which might have led to a bit different history.

[Legbreaker]

I could go on for a load of pages, but I suspect, people would get tired of my slightly off-topic rambling. :p

So go start a new thread and get to it! I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to read all about it! :p

[Targan]

So go start a new thread and get to it! I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to read all about it! :p

+1

[ShadoWarrior]

So go start a new thread and get to it! I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to read all about it! :pvote++

[Webstral]

I’m not going to participate in the discussion about whether or not American military men or even civilian leaders engaged in questionable policies or committed war crimes. In the first place, no American with knowledge of history can claim that our hands are clean. The way we handled the Philippines at the turn of the 20th Century, the internment of the Japanese-American population during WW2, the use of conventional and nuclear weapons in WW2 to destroy urban areas, the entire way we handled Vietnam from 1946 onward, and our support for some genuinely evil leaders like the last Somoza of Nicaragua clearly call into question the consistency of our commitment to our own principles. I won’t even go into the way we treated the First Nations. Angels we ain’t.

In the second place, we don’t have to be perfect to offer comment on and critique of the way other peoples do things. If perfection were the prerequisite for offering comment and criticism, there would be no commentary or criticism. God will have His say on Judgment Day. Until then, we are stuck with less-than-perfect people and nations assessing and even judging from their less-than-perfect standpoint.

Going further, morality and ethics are not black and white. They can’t be, since no human being is perfectly white. The conduct of individuals and societies exist on a spectrum. Nazi Germany isn’t reprehensible because there was nothing admirable about the way they ran their business or because no individual or even organization within Nazi Germany was devoid of value or virtue. Nazi Germany is reprehensible because the state was based on a racist/purist ideology, and it organized an industrial scale slaughter of human beings based on labels like Slav, Jew, Gypsy, homosexual, Catholic, dissident, etc.

Claiming that somehow we should not excoriate the Nazis because other groups were worse, have received less attention, or both is childish. Sorry to be so blunt, but that’s how kids think, not responsible adults. Fairness doesn’t mean that every group that does something wrong gets exactly the negative feedback they deserve, though goodness knows we’d all like that. Fairness means that a group is held accountable for their actions. If we’re not hard enough on the Mongols, the Imperial Japanese, Stalinist Soviets, or the Khmer Rouge, this fact doesn’t let the Nazis off the hook for what the Nazis did any more than looting and vandalism become okay because everyone else in the mob was doing it at the time. We should be harder on Imperial Japan and the Khmer Rouge, not less hard on the Nazis to even things out.

One can admire the battlefield prowess of the Waffen SS. As a kid, I played the “what if” game about German victory on the Eastern Front constantly. I have no beef with someone who respects the Waffen SS purely for their fighting ability.

That much said, let’s imagine for the moment that we are people with the power to make decisions. We might say that the people of the world need to wise up and be able to distinguish between the front-line troops of certain SS formations and the folks responsible for murder in the camps and in the field; but as a practical matter, very few people are ever going to be able to do this. Why? There is only so much time for K-12 education, and the list of things worth covering in history seems endless. Having faced the crunch of trying to cover everything that should be covered in a school year, I can say with confidence that I’d be stunned if as many as 1% of American educators responsible for covering WW2 in high school curricula put into their lesson plans a single sentence distinguishing between the SS on the front lines and the SS as murderous card-carrying Nazis. Should they? Possibly. Will they? I’d put more money on getting the wealthiest Americans to sign off on a truly universal draft (which would include their own children).

Given that the average American will never be able to distinguish between the fighting men and murderers, does it make more sense for an organization like the USMC to rail at an ignorant public or squash open displays of Nazi symbols that call into question the values of the Corps?




edit kato13. I am locking this thread. This issue has been covered thoroughly and no need for it to be drug up later by a new user.