Relevant to our interests - collector's tanks and their armament

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I posted in a thread a while back about collector's MBTs and so on, specifically regarding their main guns: do all civilian owned AFVs with large cannons have to have the breechblock cut?

[schnickelfritz]

No, not necessarily. I've seen and touched some personally. As I understand it, a live fire cannon or mortar, etc. must be registered as a Destructive Device in the USA. There are collectors who have every thing from 37mm in the M3/M5/M8 to Shermans to German WW2 stuff and so on. On the US 37mm, the breech block unscrews using some large acme-style threads.

The question is usually do you really want to fire one of these live, assuming you can make some solid shot on a lathe with black or smokeless propellant. It would depend on what it is and how it was treated since it's last use.

Look on youtube...there are videos of someone who has one of the rare US 90mm AT gun prototypes from WW2 and the guy fires solid shot through it at places like Knob Creek. As I understand it, it takes the same 90mm Ammo as the M26/M46/M47/M48 (and M56 Scorpion).

On the other hand, something like an old AT gun just firing black powder charges would probably scare the hell out of your average biker gang, though.

-Dave

[pmulcahy11b]

One possible source of artillery and even old tank destroyers and aircraft are Ski Patrols in certain parts of the country. They use them to cause controlled avalanches under some circumstances. These guys may have anything from air cannons that throw explosives charges to actually retired military vehicles, recoilless rifles, and field guns, and howitzers. (But they generally are only allowed to fire HE or smoke rounds.)

[raketenjagdpanzer]

No, not necessarily. I've seen and touched some personally. As I understand it, a live fire cannon or mortar, etc. must be registered as a Destructive Device in the USA. There are collectors who have every thing from 37mm in the M3/M5/M8 to Shermans to German WW2 stuff and so on. On the US 37mm, the breech block unscrews using some large acme-style threads.

The question is usually do you really want to fire one of these live, assuming you can make some solid shot on a lathe with black or smokeless propellant. It would depend on what it is and how it was treated since it's last use.

Look on youtube...there are videos of someone who has one of the rare US 90mm AT gun prototypes from WW2 and the guy fires solid shot through it at places like Knob Creek. As I understand it, it takes the same 90mm Ammo as the M26/M46/M47/M48 (and M56 Scorpion).

On the other hand, something like an old AT gun just firing black powder charges would probably scare the hell out of your average biker gang, though.

-Dave

You know, I remember (now that you mention it) that R. Lee Ermey has a friend who has a French Renault FT-1 in 100% operable condition complete with 37mm gun (he builds his own solid shot; The Gunny fired off a few rounds, IIRC).

It would definitely jack up some NA's beefed-up commercial Humvee!

EDIT: not to mention a crimped shell full of glass, fishhooks, 1" bolts, roofing nails and whatever other nasty shit you wanted to stuff in there... x-(

[Olefin]

There are collectors who have vehicles that are fully operational. At least one was shown on Auction Hunters, a show here in the US that is seen on Spike. They found a live barrel in a storage unit and sold it to a collector who had a tank (cant remember off the top of my head but will see if I can find out what the model was) that was fully operational and they fired off a round in the show.

[schnickelfritz]

They sold the uncut, live 37mm to Northeast Military Vehicle Services in Massachusetts. The 37mm was bare of the breach block, but in great shape.

They can be found at: http://www.site.ww2mv.com/

Dave

[Olefin]

Love that site - and the post there about the Hellcat for sale says it all as to operational tanks in the hands of a collector

ie.

"This Hellcat is hull no 1550 and was perfectly restored in 2008 at Milspec in NJ after being brought in the country from Bosnia. This tank saw action in Bosnia and has the battle scars to prove it, some of which were left during restoration.

Everything on the tank is functional including the hydraulic turret traverse and the radio-intercom system. The paint has some blemishes from being used in parades over the last few years, but that's about it. The engine runs perfectly, absolutely no issues with the Continental R-975 C1 motor."

meaning we may need to add the Hellcat to the Orbat for Yugoslavia

[Legbreaker]

The various elements in 1990's Yugoslavia were using anything that moved, meaning the Hellcat in question may well have been the one and only. I recall T-34s and M4 Shermans were used, and "small arms" included backyard single shot rifles and bows. If it was capable of inflicting pain and death, chances are somebody was using it.

[Olefin]

yes - but the fact that they had it makes for interesting additions for gaming - so you dont have the same boring T-55 choice - instead you can have Shermans, Hellcats, T-34's,etc.. for a Yugoslavian campaign and clearly have it be based on reality - i.e. if that tank fought in Bosnia in the 90's then its there for the timeline of T2000

[Legbreaker]

Very true, however it's unlikely to be in a unit's official vehicle roster although by 2000 who knows what's been picked up or made. We know from other materials that enemy vehicles are pressed into use, so it's no great stretch to see old antiques rolled out. Ammo for some weapons might be a bit hard to come by, but a tank is still a scary prospect to face with nothing more than your rifle and harsh language.

[Olefin]

I will agree there - an old Sherman or Hellcat is not much when you compare it to an M1 or a T-72 - but if you dont have heavy explosives of some sort its more than enough to handle machine guns or infantry weapons

and considering most marauders dont have more than bullets on them even an antique can give you quite an advantage, at least until you run into the guys who still have an operational bazooka or RPG

[Panther Al]

The various elements in 1990's Yugoslavia were using anything that moved, meaning the Hellcat in question may well have been the one and only. I recall T-34s and M4 Shermans were used, and "small arms" included backyard single shot rifles and bows. If it was capable of inflicting pain and death, chances are somebody was using it.

Agreed, Bosnia was a serious hodgepodge of weird equipment being used.

It included, briefly, a kinda sort functional Panther. In short, the gun and turret worked, but didn't drive. Used it as a bunker briefly till it knocked out a pair of Serb T72's (Could been the Yugo Clone, but I don't know for sure) and got all sorts of Serbian attention afterwords. The source for this was a Russian Observer who noted that 50 years later, the Panther was still giving the russians fits.

[Olefin]

They had a real WWII Panther? Now that is interesting - and the fact that it was still effective really opens up some interesting ideas for game play.

As in dont worry about that old WWII tank guys, its probably just a monument or something. Till the "monument"'s turret rotates and takes out your LAV-25

[Panther Al]

Non-Functional save for the gun and turret though: From what I understand it was a monument they managed to get bits and pieces together enough to get at least some use of it.


Nothing more than a bunker.


But do remember: this was Yugoslavia, they still used lFH.18/40m as a standard artillery piece, and that was the standard 105 used by the whermacht, as well as the MG42 - not the MG3, the 42 - as a standard issue Machine Gun all the way into the late 80's and early 90's. They worked very hard - and for naught in the long run - from becoming to obvious a puppet of either the west or the soviets during the 50's and 60's. Which is why they had a slew of WW2 era US and British Equipment. The 42's and Mauser Rifles are a legacy of them inheriting a couple of German Factories that was set up to supply the German Heer during WW2.

[Badbru]

The Yugoslav version/copy/clone of the SVD (M76?) was also chambered in german 7.92mm Mauser, atleast for the first production run.

[James Langham]

They were also using the MP44 for the elite 63rd Parachute Brigade into the early 1990s!

Non-Functional save for the gun and turret though: From what I understand it was a monument they managed to get bits and pieces together enough to get at least some use of it.


Nothing more than a bunker.


But do remember: this was Yugoslavia, they still used lFH.18/40m as a standard artillery piece, and that was the standard 105 used by the whermacht, as well as the MG42 - not the MG3, the 42 - as a standard issue Machine Gun all the way into the late 80's and early 90's. They worked very hard - and for naught in the long run - from becoming to obvious a puppet of either the west or the soviets during the 50's and 60's. Which is why they had a slew of WW2 era US and British Equipment. The 42's and Mauser Rifles are a legacy of them inheriting a couple of German Factories that was set up to supply the German Heer during WW2.