canon versus non-canon in a non-supported game

[Olefin]

My two cents and you can take it for what its worth or not

I know that many people arent comfortable with the idea I have raised of ignoring Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped and saying that they dont make sense with the rest of the established canon - but I think a lot of people are missing the point

It would be one thing if we were talking about a supported game that was still issuing modules, with Challenge magazine still golng on and new stories coming out all the time -

But that isnt the case - Twilight 2000, no matter what version is now only supported by its fans and the last of its diehard players

And those two modules were the tail end charlies of the line - i.e. there isnt a whole bunch of material afterward that has to be thrown out if you throw those two out - and while there is stuff with later dates its almost all either set in Europe or the Middle East- or its so generic that whether or not the uber drought happened doesnt mean much to affect the story - City of Angels for instance works both with and without the uber drought, so does Satellite down for that matter

As for 2300 AD and its timeline - it is so generic in many ways that it really doesnt matter if the drought happens or not - you can still acheive it

And as I said earlier today canon is what you make of it - in our game we killed the Baron in Ruins of Warsaw - so there goes Return to Warsaw. We gave the Madonna to Stark who turned it over to the Polish Free Congress - so there goes White Eagle.

For the Last Boomer we didnt take the long trip thru New England - our GM said he couldnt believe that MilGov would lose a submarine - so all we did was the part where the torpedoes have to be grabbed and in our case it was not just torpedoes but six operational Harpoons and spare parts to get so that the Corpus Christi could not only do the Med cruise but also drop off parts in Israel to fix an American SSN that was stuck there because it needed parts to make its reactor functional again.

And those games, while differing substantially from what some say would be canon were very very fun.

Frankly I wish my GM had never picked up Kidnapped and Howling Wildnerness and lost interest in the game. (As he said he didnt want to GM an Aftermath game). And the Return to Europe modules were no good for us because of what we had done earlier.

And frankly no one was interested in doing a reboot - so the campaign died.

So the lesson from this - if the game was still supported officially I would be right there saying follow canon as much as you can because otherwise you may just paint yourself into a corner one day (or have to have Bobby be in the shower for a year like Dallas did or have Fonzie jump the shark)

But if its unsupported and you feel like changing canon - as long as its fun and the players have a good time then go for it. There are some here who may not like that you do that - but unless they are your players or your GM dont worry about it and l cant wait to hear about what you come up with.

As Gary Gygax said - canon is in the hands of the Dungeon Master and the players that enter his world. Dont let canon stop you from having fun.

[Legbreaker]

As I've stated many times, canon is a base we can all work from. Individually we can cherrypick whatever elements we like and change what we don't, but as a community we should always respect the published materials.

If we want to write additional materials in the hope others will also use it, we MUST respect canon. If we're just writing materials for our own individual use and posting it here for comment and constructive criticism, then the author must not appear to be thrusting it down other peoples throats and declare it's the "only way it can be".

An example of a good body of non-canon work is (as I've always said) Webstrals Thunder Empire. Personally I'm not about to use it as it's seriously different to how I see the situation, but that doesn't make it any less interesting to read. Web has also NEVER thrust it down anyone's throat, but always presented it as his alternative reality. He incorporates many canon elements, and builds on it, never once arguing that any part of canon must be ignored by everyone, or saying the writers of the canon materials screwed up.

How would the writers feel if they were to read some of the comments denigrating their creations (which were obviously good enough for GDW to publish as official)? Are they really any different to any member of this forum?

As a last note, we are lucky to number a few of the developers from GDW amongst our members. They're not particularly active, but they're here all the same and do on occasion make comments and suggestions.
So, an unsupported game huh?

[Raellus]

Recently, I posted the following in another thread here. I think it bears repeating, though.

I wish folks would stop putting forth their version of the T2KU as the best, most realistic, most accurate, most real-world, most historical, most whatever, etc. Everyone who's played with the T2K setting probably thinks that their version is the best. Saying so just starts drama.

It would be nice if we could all come to a consensus on this, but that's just not going to happen. Whether it be T2K "history", gear, settings, modules, whatever, there's going to be variance and disagreement. You say G11, I say HK41. Why argue about it? Unless we're playing together in the same campaign, it's not going to matter one bit. Although I used to enjoy these intellectual debates, too often, they turn into shouting matches and pissing contests. We lost a few members and our site admin the last time we opened this Pandora's Box. Maybe I'm a little gunshy, but I can see this "discussion" drifting into treacherous waters again... [emphasis added]

We need to go Hindu here. Any version of the T2KU is welcome on this site. If you want to put forth your own version of T2K, that's cool. Just try to stay away from value words and judgments. That just ends up starting crap. By the same token, if you don't like someone else's T2KU, don't use it. There's no need to tell people why you think it sucks. Live and let live.

I think that we can apply this simple practice to published materials as well as home brewed stuff. Ripping published materials is not particularly helpful, nor is it respectful to the creators. I've been critical of published stuff before, and I've been critical of user-created stuff too. I've been on the other side as well. I've seen the light. Unless someone asks for constructive criticism, you really don't need to say another critical about another's work. Once again, if you don't like it, change it, or don't use it at all.

T2K is for everybody. Take what you like, add what you want, and leave out what you don't.

[95th Rifleman]

My rpg background is pretty varied. My first rpg was world of darkness (vampire dark ages), I've played DnD (2nd, 3rd and 3.5), shadowrun, call of cthulu, cyberpunk and a fair few others.

One thing I've always learned is that a good dm/gm/st uses established canon as a guideline and evolves the game and the game world based on what the pcs do. I've had the blessing/curse (it's a double edged sword) to play with groups who always equip themselves with the talisman of plot-hook avoidance +5, every possible way to screw with publised material has been explored and it makes it more fun. None of us like being pigeon holed into a published adventure and I tend to write my own plot anyway as it's easier to adapt.

In short, canon is not the be all and end all, you get 10 of us in a room and you will get a dozen versions of this game. I'm all up for discussing alternate canon, but as mentioned, it needs to be done calmly, rationaly and with an attitude that there is no ONE way to run/play this game.

[Legbreaker]

I'm all for throwing the books out the window when it's just your own small Saturday evening groups of half a dozen or so, but this forum has a membership of 500+ and growing daily.
Canon gives us all a common ground to work from.

My earlier post in this thread forgot to mention the Twilight:2013 developers who are active here. Once more, while official materials aren't being written and published any more, we do still have input from those who created the whole thing in the first place. That to me sounds very much like it's supported.

[Rainbow Six]

I normally try to stay out of what I think of as "political" threads, but after stewing on this one for some time I'm making an exception.

From where I'm sitting it rather feels as though several of the comments in this thread are aimed in my direction, specifically with regard to my Alternative Survivor's Guide to the UK.

For the record, yes, I have criticised the canon material on the UK in the past. I still feel justified in making those criticisms, and would be more than happy to have discuss them with the original creators should the opportunity ever arise. I'm certainly not about to apologise for putting my views forward in what I think has always been a polite manner. If anyone can recall an occasion when my comments have been rude or ill tempered perhaps they could draw my attention to the post in question.

Secondly, I think I've always been very clear from the outset that I'm not even playing T2K any longer, so my work has always been something I do for fun...nothing more, nothing less, and which I enjoy sharing with others in the hope that at least some may find the work to be of interest. If anyone does find it of sufficent interest to actually use any of the material, then frankly I'm flattered, but again I would be grateful if anyone could point me in the direction of any post where I've ever said "it's the "only way it can be"." or "thrust it down anyone's throat".

Maybe I'm overreacting here, but no one (apart from possibly my fiancee) knows how much work I have put into that project (and continue to do so), so I think I'm entitled to feel defensive about it when relatively sweeping statements are being made. I think right now I can understand a little of how Chico and the others felt.

[Legbreaker]

RS, what you have shown us so far is very well done and you have justified every change you have made. When others have commented you have calmly (and even gratefully) taken it on board and where necessary made adjustments or reassessed your ideas and assumptions.
For me it's a pleasure to read every word.

You are right in saying you have never forced your views on anyone here, effectively detailing your reasons for diverging from the original book and even incorporating some of it into your own work. To me, what you have done, and continue to do is the right way to go about developing and presenting an alternative. I look forward to the day you combine it all into one large publication and call it complete (doubtful you'll ever be able to stop tinkering though!)

[simonmark6]

I seriously don't think there's any veiled criticism of your work Rainbow, or of anybody's effort. I have read your input and value it and you have always presented it as your version of the alternate reality rather than anything that should be considered canon or better than canon.

I have no problem with any different versions and indeed I enjoy reading them even if I disagree with them. Sometimes, the method of delivery is more difficult to swallow than the actual work and this is what can generate tension.

I'd like to see any debate about a non-canon issue limited to a single post followed by a single rebuttal from the original poster. After that let's agree to disagree and move on for the sake of sanity if nothing else. All of us have a certain entrenched feeling about the game or we wouldn't still be working on it after twenty odd years: no-one is going to win an argument on this forum so it's probably best to stop debating.

On a personal note, I value everyone's contribution to this forum even though some people irritate me sometimes (yes James, I am talking about you including James Bloody Blunt in canon: that's a executable offence in my book), and I would hate to see anybody lost because of acrimony.

Maybe this format would be best:
1) Post an opinion
2) Anyone who wishes to comment does so once
3) The poster can post one rebuttal then move on after having agreed to disagree
If people desperately want to continue a debate, take it to PM.
Arguments on this forum leave everyone poorer and nobody wins.

As for my original reason to post, don't take it personally Rainbow, I'm pretty sure no one is trying to have a dig at you. It's easy for me to be sanguine as none of the work I'm doing on the TK2 universe is out there for debate but I think you're right: you're too emotionally close to your work and seeing brickbats where there are none.

[Tegyrius]

Speaking as one of the aforementioned developers (thanks, Leg!), I will say that there is a wide spectrum of critical behavior in gamer responses to published material. At one end, you have a subject matter expert who puts forth a well-reasoned analysis of a work's shortcomings and offers some solid alternatives. At the other end, you have the semi-literate, hebephrenic scrawlings of a fan (short for "fanatic," let's not forget) whose offense stems from the work's contradiction of his own uninformed opinion of the way "things ought to be," which may involve a vast body of "unpublished supplements" that would induce retinal hemorrhaging in any real author who chanced to lay his gaze upon them.

The former sometimes gets you hired as a freelancer if you can write and hit deadlines... and if the company still exists. The latter makes us sit around and cry bitter, bitter tears into the cheap beer that is all we can afford to use to drown our sorrows.

ETA: I became too enamored of my own vocabulary (I so rarely get to deploy "hebephrenic" - thanks, Justin Achilli!) and forgot to make the point for which I originally hit "Reply." As a game designer (if I am allowed to lay claim to that title), few things other than a paycheck please me more than seeing fans take my work and use it as a starting point for things I never would've thought to do. If I wanted to produce pure shining material unbesmirched by the hands of fans, I'd be writing teen fiction and threatening lawsuits over derivative fanfic. Instead, I create tools that other people can use to tell stories. For T2k, Paul Mulcahy's work stands out to me as a shining example of awesome fan support - Paul is the Jane's of T2k and has compiled a library of game material that few publishers would ever be able to produce as a commercial product. For 2013, one of my favorite fan threads in the 93GS forum was Traject0ry's Karelia Regain material, because it was a look at a corner of the world that I never would've thought to examine in enough detail to use as a campaign setting.

- C.

[95th Rifleman]

Allot of it comes down to how much you deviate.

A few small changes, like having the Ghurkas stationed in the Uk assighned to a forward brigade, add variety and spice to the game.

Huge changes, like the 5th's push succeeding and breaking the WP line, take things too far.

At the end of the day, discussion is all well and good. But it's so very important to realise that all we have are personal opinions and if others don't agree then that doesn't make them wrong and it doesn't make you right.

We must, as rational adults, accept that everyone is entitled to what they think and say. If disagreements occur, we have an obligation to discuss things calmly and accept sometimes the agreement to disagree.

As mentioned, this game has small, but loyal following. Many of us put so much effort into keeping this game alive within our various gaming communities that it can breed a certain sense of fanaticism I think. Those of us who keep T2k alive are so very passionate, it's heart warming but can be a trifle dangerous in these discussions as we allow our passion to ovride reason and rationality.

[Medic]

For 2013, one of my favorite fan threads in the 93GS forum was Traject0ry's Karelia Regain material, because it was a look at a corner of the world that I never would've thought to examine in enough detail to use as a campaign setting.

On that note, you wouldn't happen to have that particular thread saved, would you?

As for the original topic - I do respect the canon material, but as said earlier, it is just the foundation to build upon. What I loved about the 2013's timeline was the purposedly planted inaccuracy (for the lack of better words) on operations around the globe that gives the individual GM a wide array of possibilities to take his campaign to practically any wanted direction. And of course, the lurkers on this forum being from an array of countries, it makes us all an expert on our own right, when it comes to questions dealing with our own native countries. Along with other things (yes, I'm planning on something again), I'm probably going to write some sort of a Twilight:2000/2013 Guide to Finland when time permits.

While we all strive to portray things as accurately as possible, I believe, in most cases we do fall in to being victims of our own national prides at times. Indeed, who wouldn't want to see his own country emerge out of the ashes of war as the prime rebuilder of humanity? It is only human to think, realistic or not, the armed forces of your own particular nation are those more far better and more powerful when compared to those of the usual nemesis.

[Tegyrius]

On that note, you wouldn't happen o have that particular thread saved, would you?

I do!

... somewhere. I'll need to go hunting for it.

- C.

[Medic]

I do!

... somewhere. I'll need to go hunting for it.

- C.

And the children clapped their big hairy hands. :p

[Raellus]

I think that some people selectively cherrypick from canon to support their version of the T2KU and that, to me, is disingenuous and hypocritical. In other words, if something in the published canon supports their T2K worldview, they'll happily point it out and say "See, canon backs me up." At the same time, if something in canon doesn't support their T2K worldview, they'll loudly proclaim how canon got it all wrong and should be heavily revised or even chucked out the window all together.

This reminds me of what a lot of religious fundamentalists do and it drives me nuts.

The canon is a baseline. It's not scripture. If you want to deviate from canon, that's fine. I enjoy reading peoples' various takes on the T2KU, even if I don't agree with them. What bothers me is when people start making value judgments about published or homebrewed material or use canon as a blunt instrument with which to bash others' work. No one follows canon to the letter so to criticize others' work as "non-canonical" is hypocritical. Canon is a framework. We can add what we like and change what we don't. Let's not use canon as a weapon.

[Webstral]

Leg, thanks for the good word.

Let's not use canon as a weapon.

A worthy suggestion; no pun intended.

[95th Rifleman]

While we all strive to portray things as accurately as possible, I believe, in most cases we do fall in to being victims of our own national prides at times. Indeed, who wouldn't want to see his own country emerge out of the ashes of war as the prime rebuilder of humanity? It is only human to think, realistic or not, the armed forces of your own particular nation are those more far better and more powerful when compared to those of the usual nemesis.

Ironicly my group is rather the opposite, we tend to make allot out of the UK being the little guy, poorly equipped and supplied, having to make do with what we can find and use.

Historicly the British have always been the underdog, the stubborn little bastards who have no business doing well or winning. We succeed despite our failings, almost because of them. let us not forget in WW2 while everyone else where developing man-portable, anti-tank rockets we had a spring loaded monster with no range and was hardy to reload than a freaking crossbow!

Our games focus allot on how things have gone to hell and there is no higher organisation or control. We don't deviate from the post-apocalyptic side of T2k, it's what appeals to us.

[simonmark6]

Apart from the hundred years where we effectively ruled the world...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

let us not forget in WW2 while everyone else where developing man-portable, anti-tank rockets we had a spring loaded monster with no range and was hardy to reload than a freaking crossbow!


Yes, but it had no launch signature, and it's hollow-charge warhead was more effective (when it hit) than anything until the Panzerschreck was created. One was used to destroy a Panzer IV attempting to cross Pegasus bridge in the early hours of June 6th 1944, blocking further armor advances for a while. :)

[B.T.]

Maybe I should make one thing clear:

I am one of those, who "critizised" the original game (and it's makers/inventors/publishers) a few days ago: I said, I'd not buy the idea of Greek and Italy uniting against NATO. And one of the weak points in the written history of T2k - IMHO - is the idea, that WW III begins with a German invasion of Poland. In my personal view this was not to happen.
But:
I take the things, written in the rules book as they are, because I like to play a game (That Game). It is escapist entertainment. The game does not portray the real world, but it takes elements of the real history and puts them together in a different way, to give the background for a game!

One of the problems with all RPG (=Role Playing Games , not Rocket Propelled Grenades:D) that continously write their history forth, is the possible establishment of a paradox. Just like Olefin mentioned in his opening post, the players may run an adventure in a way, that was not intended. And the whole setup of the modules cannot work the way, they were planned.

The only RPG that I know, that used to do this in different way, was actually Hârnmaster. The makers discribed a world up to a certain point in time. And everything that happened afterwards, was not touched by published materials. (Well, that's what I learned about the first edition of Hârnmaster, and I don't even know, If Columbia changed that, or if there has ever been a second edition. Maybe Targan can provide some insight here:))

So: From my very personal point of view I can say, that I really like the efforts of several members, to change/add things. Or write their own personal stories, that differ from canon. What I like, can be of great value, because it gives me insights or new ideas, that may change my game. If someone writes something, that does not fit to my perception of the T2k universe - so what? I don't have to use it.

When Legbreaker says, canon should be a safe point, he's right! But I, for myself, have the chance to stick to canon, or not. (No contradiction here, Legbreaker. I think, up to now I stick to canon, but if I would not, that would be my personal affair. Here on the board; canon should be accepted, or people should clearly say: "What follows differs from canon ...")

And if someone asks for input or criticism, we should be able (and adult enough) to give a helping hand. If someone wants to add further detail, that does not interfere with canon, but is not mentioned in canon, it is a useful thing, to discuss, if those alterations could interfere with published material.

And, by the way: We all are here, because we like one of the T2k incarnations. That is, what we have all in common. Maybe we should bear that in mind and keep it friendly.

Hm, I hope, you understand what I'm trying to say. It is a touchy subject and I'm not so convinced of may LNG: English skill. As always: no offense intended! :cool:

[raketenjagdpanzer]

B.T., the World of Greyhawk setting for Advanced D&D did that with its timeline, too. There's a rich background of political events that unfold not unlike a "Twilight:2000" for a fantasy world (two huge empires unleash terrible weapons and utterly destroy one another, leaving a broken world of imperial city-states peopled by desperate men and women scavenging the ruins for supplies, magic items and so on, hiring themselves out as mercenaries, etc.)

It brought the "game clock" from thousands of years in the past to "Common Year" 576 and left the rest up to the DM...

[Olefin]

Sorry Leg - but the Twilight 2000 game that I play is not 2013 - so even if the writers are still here unless they are issuing new modules, new articles, etc. then the canon is unsupported. And 2013 canon doesnt interest me as I dont play that game.

And no there is no reason we must respect canon unless the game becomes a living supported game by the original writers again - and no one except you is trying to shove anything down anyone's throat (i.e. the constant we must respect canon that you say to anyone who isnt 100 percent toeing the canon line that we hear so often)

Now I will say this - if Frey or Wiseman start reissuing canon articles or modules or whatever I would LOVE IT (hint hint hint) - but until then we have an unsupported game that really will be different depending on who the GM is -

for instance City of Angels, which according to FarFuture is considered apocrypha and not really part of the canon, is considered canon by those who played it and whose characters now have that as part of their history

as I said - in our game the second that sniper shot killed the Baron the canon went out the window - in canon he leads his army back to Warsaw - in our game he was killed and gone long before the Return to Warsaw module was released

so our GM basically threw that module out - same with White Eagle - the Polish Free Congress got the Madonna and that priest, with no Madonna, had his army destroyed by the Silesian one - again there goes canon

as for the Boomer - we got there with a full crew, not a scratch one - and instead of sinking her after we got to her, MilGov took her home - and thus inherited a ballistic missile sub (but with only three functional missiles) that they intended to use as a particularily well armed power station

again there goes canon

I bet that there are dozens of similar stories out there where modules either were made irrelevant by character actions or had to be majorly changed

a great example - when we busted out we sprung a bunch of American POW's out both in the Escape and in the Madonna module - some of them stayed with B troop when we found them but we showed up at Krakow with 8 player characters and almost 28 NPC's along for the ride - and our GM had to do some rewriting to make certain things challenging - and all because of the roads we took

I am very happy at the responses to this thread - it shows that the forum is both very alive and full of people who love the game and the forum

and if you dont agree with me and my opinions, no skin off my nose

and if the creators of T2000 who are on this forum want to help us with the canon - even if what they say is totally different than what I think - I would love to see that kind of thing here

[Legbreaker]

Olefin, you're missing the point.

In your own private game group, what happens is canon for them. Just because it happens to them, doesn't mean it's relevant to everyone else.

The books on the other hand are canon for everyone unless altered by events within their own game.

It's all well and good to say "this is what we think", "how we did it", but it's completely unacceptable to push those opinions upon everyone else. The books, while we all disagree with some, or many points within them, provide us all, as a worldwide community with a common foundation. As I stated before, and others have reiterated, if a person wants to create something with the intention of others using it, then they MUST stick with the information in the books, or, as Rainbow Six has done, give some pretty damn compelling reasons why they've made alterations, and detail exactly what they are.

To simply declare published materials as rubbish and demand all others agree with you is a recipe for conflict.

Many, many times I've been described as a "canon nazi", but that's mainly because I strongly believe that anything I write should be useful to everyone. In my own games I make changes and (I hope) improvements, but I'm not about to ram them down other peoples throats. I'm all for discussing rules changes, or interpretations of the evidence given in the books. My very first post on this forum was an assessment of the spring offensive written after weeks of research. Even though I've probably spent more time on that one period than any 10 other people, members of this forum have provided different viewpoints which has caused me to alter some of my own.

To me, this forum is a collaboration of many like minded people all working for a similar goal - the extension and improvement of T2K resources, without upsetting the delicate world balance or radically altering things so it's no longer anything like T2K.

Finally, nobody is saying everyone MUST stick to canon and damn all the rest. Diversions and alterations are great, but as a community, we must work from a common foundation. If anyone wants to create something different, then good on them, but they need to identify it as an alternative.

[James Langham]

This isn;t something I comment in normally being a dedicated follower of canon, but...

Possibly the best option is what appears to be happening now, anything which deviates from GDW's published work gets marked "NON-CANON," preferably in the subject. I personally try to stick hard to canon but appreciate that sometimes this can produce difficulties for a writer. I have to admit I personally find non-canon articles less interesting but tend to read them and reuse ideas (the way I encourage others to do with mine). Rainbow, I particularly appreciate the Alternative Survivor's Guide to the UK - if I hadn;t invested all the time into my background I would probably just use yours - please keep writing.

BOTH types of posts have a place and as long as it is clear which it is I see no problems. Common sense would suggest that if an author says something is non-canon he/she should not be criticized for it deviating although others should be free to point out the effects of the change on the world or holes in the research. Please all keep writing both canon and non-canon.

PS James Blunt stays as background colour! :-)

[Rainbow Six]

OK, maybe I did read read between the lines a little too much on this one and see things that weren't there - I suspect Simon probably got it right when he said I'm emotionally attached to my work. At least I've dealt with what would most likely have been an elephant in the room for me otherwise, so I can now press on and try and get some more sections completed.

And Leg, it is absolutely my intention to pull everything together into one document one day which can then be shared with everyone, but I didn't realise my habit of tinkering was that obvious! :)

It also occurs to me that I may be causing some confusion with some of my stand alone pieces, e.g. Mandalay Company, the Anglo German Brigade, etc, most of which are intended to be compatible with canon, so going forward when posting any material I will clarify whether it's intended to fit canon or fit my Alternative SGUK.

Cheers guys.

[Tombot]

I know this is a discussion mainly beetween the forum-vets, which contributed for quite a while. But here are my two cents;
I like T2k for its atmosphere and the tone, the GDW-authors found to present their world. There is a ton of material, but theres no official stuff published anymore.
To me thats good, cause there is much more (adventures, campaigns, scenario-hints) than my friends and i will be able to play, i guess.
We played through the krakow-module and the first half of "Going Home", and that kept us busy now for several month (we try to play weekly, but right now its usually every two weeks for only 3-5 hours a session).

Besides the actual campaign we´re playing, i like to write down scenario-ideas of all kinds. Since there is no more stuff produced, but there are so many regions described by canon, we have the freedom to "fill the white gaps" by ourselfes, without the "risk" of getting overruled by a new module appearing next summer.
Because i do like T2k, i like its canon, it gives me a guide for new "What if?"-
Situations in places, not mentioned in the modules.
The freedom to make up your own stuff (or to read the good things a lot of the other fans produced), is very satisfying.

The feeling of having done something, in the "spirit" of canon is something only aquired by some thoughtfull handywork.
I do appreciate the work, i saw here done, by so many of you. And i do with my own stuff; when i present a coloured map,introduce some well-prepared NPC´s, to my group.
The discussions among the forum-members about quality, or some nitpicking over little details, is ok, cause we all like to think about T2k (and thats not for everyone in the year 2012! Shit, we´re old farts :)).
But if i dont like what somebody else is proud of; i would´nt comment.
Its like talking about music or special food. Its just your or my taste about some hobby we share.

As long as we have some common ground (and that should be canon), we can differ from each other, that what IS interesting, thats what gives you new insights and ideas.
And there are many of those here to be found. We can be glad, that there are still others left (considering we´re talking about a game from ancient times now) in this forum, to share our thoughts with, instead of running each other down.

[simonmark6]

I suppose I could always game out a Welsh Secret Services assassination of him for his abuses to the art of choral singing. Then again, his effects on morale are probably worth a batallion so he might have to live....

New Twilight 2000 fanfic coming up:

James Blunt must die!

[B.T.]

New Twilight 2000 fanfic coming up:

James Blunt must die!

:D

[simonmark6]

However, before we get pinged for being a paramilitary organisation plotting James' Blunt's death I must add that I'm happy the chap's doing well for himself. Just because his singing is puerile and he's a sell-out doesn't really justify his death.

[B.T.]

IRL I'm actually some kind of pacifist. I'd never want somebody to get killed IRL ...

But having James Blunt as a NPC in a RPG - that's just scary. I dont want him in my T2k universe. But I think, we can assume James Blunt being excluded from canon, can we? :)

[Legbreaker]

IRL I'm actually some kind of pacifist. I'd never want somebody to get killed IRL ...

I'll happily do it.... :p

[simonmark6]

Whether we like it or not, JB is canon, he was serving in the army at about that time. How long he survives once PCs get involved...that's another matter.

Can't remember if this is a tale about him or if it's me amalgamating stories but I'm sure he once claimed that he'd stopped World War Three because of something he did in Bosnia. Maybe he's been altering canon too.

Found it, just to prove I'm not delusional:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11753050

[Rainbow Six]

I think he has made that claim...if memory serves it was something that happened in Kosovo...I can't remember but I think his unit may have beaten th Russians to Pristina Airport, something like that. I think there's a reference to it in General Sir Mike Jackson's autobiography (iirc Jackson suggests Blunt "exaggerated" his (Blunt's) role in the whole thing but I'd need to check the book to be sure).

Edit - just saw your edit...

[Eddie]

I've read "common thread," "common language," "common foundation," and "starting point" in this topic.

Shouldn't love of this game be the common thread?

As I stated before, and others have reiterated, if a person wants to create something with the intention of others using it, then they MUST stick with the information in the books, or, as Rainbow Six has done, give some pretty damn compelling reasons why they've made alterations, and detail exactly what they are.

Why? To both of these statements. If I write something and want others to be able to use it, why do I have to justify anything? Other than, "This was fun for us. I'll post it here. If you like it, try it out," that is.

Why argue about it? Unless we're playing together in the same campaign, it's not going to matter one bit. Although I used to enjoy these intellectual debates, too often, they turn into shouting matches and pissing contests. We lost a few members and our site admin the last time we opened this Pandora's Box. Maybe I'm a little gunshy, but I can see this "discussion" drifting into treacherous waters again...

Other than my first few weeks on the forum where I tried to break into the clique of the forumites here, I've been predominately a lurker. Over and over, in the 2-3 years I've been here, I see the same picture as Raellus describes in this quote.

I understand why Kato has passed the reins and stepped away from this forum. In fact, this latest round of "you must/no I don't"'s has left a very, very sour taste in my mouth and I think I'm going to do the same.

[Legbreaker]

Whether we like it or not, JB is canon, he was serving in the army at about that time. How long he survives once PCs get involved...that's another matter.
Not at all. Canon simply means it's in the books. Who knows what JB would have done, or what would have happened to him if T2K was real. Would he really have survived the years of warfare and nukes, or like the majority of soldiers perished in the conflict?

Shouldn't love of this game be the common thread?
Of course it is. However, we all "love" in different ways. The books at least give us a set of facts/statements to work from, not just our own (sometimes fevered) imaginations and impressions of what years of war will look like. Throwing out the books is basically the same as opening the door to chaos.

If I write something and want others to be able to use it, why do I have to justify anything? Other than, "This was fun for us. I'll post it here. If you like it, try it out," that is.
There's NOBODY saying don't post it or saying that anybody is wrong to make changes, all that is being asked is that any variation to the books is identified as such and personal opinions aren't forced upon anyone else. The majority of people already make that differentiation without a problem, issues only arise when somebody makes sweeping statements that "their opinion is the only valid one."

[Olefin]

"To simply declare published materials as rubbish and demand all others agree with you is a recipe for conflict."

Leg - show me when I ever demanded that all others agree with me.

I have stated that the opinion I have about those two modules is shared by many on this forum including the late great Chico. And that in my opinion they are rubbish and were campaign killers.

That is hardly a demand.

And the only conflict I see being generated here is by you and a few other canon defenders who act like any deviation from canon is like spitting on the Bible.

And some of the holes in the canon are huge - there are multiple divisions in Korea - but we now almost nothing about that whole conflict except for how it affected the US and Russian divisions themselves. Africa is mentioned barely in the RDF module and a very little bit in Going Home and the Med Cruise - and thats it.

Frankly I could write ten Korean modules, and as long as I stay on the peninsula they can be just as much canon as anything Frank Frey ever wrote.

For those of us like Rainbow 6 and Chico and Paul who are doing a lot of work to expand the world of Twilight 2000 I say keep going and dont let comments from the canon defenders discourage you.

Who knows, if we issue enough fan canon then maybe someone will get the hint that the game still has a big enough following that it deserves to be picked up again as Twilight 2000. If not then the fan canon can bring that world more to life for those who are left.


And since some of those who wrote the modules for Twilight 2000 are here on this forum if they feel differently let them contact me - frankly I would love to talk to them. It would be an honor to talk to them in fact and tell them how much I have enjoyed their game over the years.

[Tegyrius]

Who knows, if we issue enough fan canon then maybe someone will get the hint that the game still has a big enough following that it deserves to be picked up again as Twilight 2000.

http://www.farfuture.net/

Contact info is at the bottom of the page. Good luck and have your checkbook ready.

- C.

[Olefin]

I mean with new Twilight 2000 modules and support - not 2013

its a different game with a different set up

[James Langham]

Interestingly I never said he was alive...and he is a junior officer in a recce unit - not a good survival rate...

I rest my case that we can all interpret things differently from the same info! :-)

Whether we like it or not, JB is canon, he was serving in the army at about that time. How long he survives once PCs get involved...that's another matter.

Can't remember if this is a tale about him or if it's me amalgamating stories but I'm sure he once claimed that he'd stopped World War Three because of something he did in Bosnia. Maybe he's been altering canon too.

Found it, just to prove I'm not delusional:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11753050

[95th Rifleman]

I must admit to a certain trepidation at posting anything non-canon.

I posted about the possible way a British unit evolves as the war progressed and asked for others input on how they handled this aspect and the first reply included this:

"None of that really matters that much though"

Now I'll be honest I'm angry and I think it applies to this paticular thread. How are we supposed to grow a community when anything that isn't canon is derided and people are discouraged from thinking outside the published box.

Some people on this forum and i'm sorry but Legbreaker appears the main culprit, take the attitude that if it isn't canon "none of it really matters".

I posted on this thread earlier about respecting opinions, I see little of it with such comments.

[Tegyrius]

I mean with new Twilight 2000 modules and support - not 2013

its a different game with a different set up

I am vaguely aware of that.

My point is that Far Future owns the Twilight: 2000 property. Twilight: 2013 was published under a license agreement with FFE, which has since expired (along with 93 Games Studio, which was the other party involved in that license). Anyone else who wants to involve himself in commercial production of new Twilight: 2000 material in any form will need to negotiate with FFE for that right.

I've previously touched on the murky legal status of Twilight: 2013 and its rules system (http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php?p=43593&postcount=25).

Also, you may want to do some reading in the last major thread we had regarding a post-2013 resurrection of the property (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2582).

- C.

[Olefin]

Rifleman dont let anyone on this forum with any comment made here discourage you from posting - frankly the canon defenders can ignore what you post or say it doesnt matter if they want to but the rest of us would love to see what you have to say.

As for who owns the property rights - fan canon productions marked clearly as such, given freely for people to enjoy can be posted to our hearts content - they may not be "official" - but there is nothing that says they cant be used for peoples games as much as anything GDW posted - you have to take them with a grain of salt in some ways

but I would rather have a vital campaign that uses non-canon material to flesh out the world of Twilight 2000 than one that runs out of material or wont go certain places because canon was either silent or because canon is exhausted

[Webstral]

I must admit to a certain trepidation at posting anything non-canon.

Post it. I'd post more frequently if I had more time for writing.

[Olefin]

I second Webstral's motion

[Webstral]

There was a time, going back at least four years now, that the forum was working towards building a common vision of the Twilight: 2000 world. The regulars had areas they liked a lot and upon which they focused their energies. Material would be posted, and folks would provide some helpful feedback. I got lots of helpful feedback during the early stages of Thunder Empire. Other members of the forum, some of whom are still around, gave me some very useful ideas on coping with the obvious food problems in southeastern Arizona.

Then that changed. New members started to arrive, and not all of them were interested in building consensus. I put up some posts regarding the potential positive impact of airships in the wake of Airlords of the Ozarks. Some posters replied with items to be taken into consideration. Others replied “That won’t work”. I’m paraphrasing, but one gets the idea. I didn’t see the pattern at the time. However, the blowout over the DC Group’s very ambitious scheme for the Operation Omega forces demonstrated conclusively that not everyone who was frequenting this forum wanted to work together to expand on the existing body of material—emphasis being on the phrase “working together”. Many of the old hands have moved on, and what was once a pretty darned cooperative community has become markedly less so.

For my own part, I’m still interested in developing a common vision. Our individual products only benefit from feedback. Of course, delivery and intent really do matter. I’m glad that Olefin is taking an interest in the Middle East post-Operation Omega. The region is rich with potential. As he posts material, I will do my best to provide feedback in the way we used to do it here. People who have come aboard in the past couple of years can see how it used to go and decide for themselves whether this is desirable.

[Panther Al]

There was a time, going back at least four years now, that the forum was working towards building a common vision of the Twilight: 2000 world. The regulars had areas they liked a lot and upon which they focused their energies. Material would be posted, and folks would provide some helpful feedback. I got lots of helpful feedback during the early stages of Thunder Empire. Other members of the forum, some of whom are still around, gave me some very useful ideas on coping with the obvious food problems in southeastern Arizona.

Then that changed. New members started to arrive, and not all of them were interested in building consensus. I put up some posts regarding the potential positive impact of airships in the wake of Airlords of the Ozarks. Some posters replied with items to be taken into consideration. Others replied “That won’t work”. I’m paraphrasing, but one gets the idea. I didn’t see the pattern at the time. However, the blowout over the DC Group’s very ambitious scheme for the Operation Omega forces demonstrated conclusively that not everyone who was frequenting this forum wanted to work together to expand on the existing body of material—emphasis being on the phrase “working together”. Many of the old hands have moved on, and what was once a pretty darned cooperative community has become markedly less so.

For my own part, I’m still interested in developing a common vision. Our individual products only benefit from feedback. Of course, delivery and intent really do matter. I’m glad that Olefin is taking an interest in the Middle East post-Operation Omega. The region is rich with potential. As he posts material, I will do my best to provide feedback in the way we used to do it here. People who have come aboard in the past couple of years can see how it used to go and decide for themselves whether this is desirable.

Agreed: There is plenty of room to expand on things in the TW2K universe, be it V1, V2.2, or V3. And frankly there is a lot of knowledge in quite a few of the posters here that can make some fantastic user generated guides.

One of the reasons I posted the breakdown of forces taking part in Omega (Or not as the case may be) was to illustrate that even within Canon, there is four supported chains that can be followed: Those units that gave the whole US chain of command the middle finger - The new Austrian Duke for example - and stuck around in Europe, those that stayed within the chain, and stayed anyways - Have two options here: The guys stuck out on a limb to the east and those that stayed in Germany proper, 5 Corp heading to the Middle east, and yes, looking at the numbers in the books, there is solid evidence that more than a little heavy equipment headed that way, and yes, the Tarawa is a perfect means for that equipment there: Helo's on Deck, and you can pack a lot more than 14 tracks in the hanger. A lot more. Add in a few figs, and a couple of other transports, you got a decent sized force that is powerful enough to be left alone, and small enough to avoid being the sort of threat that demands all the stops being pull out to stop it. Then, for the forth, you have the manpower that headed back to the states: So many ways that path can be followed.


So yes, lets see what can be done with this. I have played a lot in the Austrian Alps in a lot of the games I have run, and more often than not, the groups I was with tended to do the duchy thing as well. So might have to sit back and think that over some and see what comes of it.

[Targan]

Then that changed. New members started to arrive, and not all of them were interested in building consensus. I put up some posts regarding the potential positive impact of airships in the wake of Airlords of the Ozarks. Some posters replied with items to be taken into consideration. Others replied “That won’t work”. I’m paraphrasing, but one gets the idea. I didn’t see the pattern at the time. However, the blowout over the DC Group’s very ambitious scheme for the Operation Omega forces demonstrated conclusively that not everyone who was frequenting this forum wanted to work together to expand on the existing body of material—emphasis being on the phrase “working together”. Many of the old hands have moved on, and what was once a pretty darned cooperative community has become markedly less so.

You'll recall that I was right on board with the airships discussion. Airlords of the Ozarks is one of my favorite CONUS modules. As for the DC Group's departure and associated unhappiness, I regret ever having played any part in those disputes. Matter of fact, I'm pretty disappointed in myself for not self-editing more carefully some of my comments in discussions of the last few weeks. So, yeah, my apologies.

Sometimes I get so caught up in discussing one or two of the latest posts I've read, I lose sight of the big picture. It might not seem like it sometimes but I'm not rabidly pro-canon. I admit that I prefer to expand on or tweak canon over wholesale re-writes of it. Maybe that distinction sometimes gets lost a bit in my posts.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

...but I would rather have a vital campaign that uses non-canon material to flesh out the world of Twilight 2000 than one that runs out of material or wont go certain places because canon was either silent or because canon is exhausted
Ultimately, this is the responsibility of the GM and to some extent the Players, if a campaign runs out of steam because the GM slavishly followed published material and didn't bother to do anything more, then the GM is going to run out of stories to tell real quick for some game systems.


However, the blowout over the DC Group’s very ambitious scheme for the Operation Omega forces demonstrated conclusively that not everyone who was frequenting this forum wanted to work together to expand on the existing body of material—emphasis being on the phrase “working together”.
Much of that debate wasn't over what they wanted to do or who contributed what and when, it was when some people declared that it would be canon material and a lot of the debate was over what the meaning of "canon" actually is and no matter how well intentioned, anybody not given authority by the licence holder cannot actually make 'canon' material.

[Rainbow Six]

I must admit to a certain trepidation at posting anything non-canon.

As others have said, go for it...

[Rainbow Six]

anybody not given authority by the licence holder cannot actually make 'canon' material.

Absolutely agree with that statement. No matter how well intentioned we are, no matter how good the material we produce is, even if other people use it, it is not canon and never can be.

Even if someone produced something about an area more or less untouched by canon (South Africa for example) and even if that material won plaudits from the entire community, it could not be considered canon in my opinion.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

...Even if someone produced something about an area more or less untouched by canon (South Africa for example) and even if that material won plaudits from the entire community, it could not be considered canon in my opinion.

And nor would it be considered 'canon' in any legal, ethical or moral sense.

[Olefin]

Actually it can be considered canon but as a fan canon - things like the Czechoslovak, Polish and Mexican field guides which support canon fully - are very useful for all fans without ever being officially issued by GDW or FarFuture

[Rainbow Six]

Actually it can be considered canon but as a fan canon - things like the Czechoslovak, Polish and Mexican field guides which support canon fully - are very useful for all fans without ever being officially issued by GDW or FarFuture

I think we'll need to amicably agree to disagree on this one...

[Olefin]

thats fine Rainbow - and by the way your UK survivor guide is a great fan canon guide - and it can even work with the regular canon as to expanding some of the info in it - i.e. you can pick and choose some of your stuff to fill in areas of the UK but without contradicting the canon in any way

same with other fan canon areas - i.e. you can take some of their details and work them into canon modules but as added details that just make the module come alive more but in no way change that module otherwise

(i.e. use the Mexican Army fan sourcebook to correct the equipment in the City of Angels to match what they would have had instaed of the Soviet equipment - but on a one for one basis so its the same number of tanks or APC's, just more realistic equipment)

[James1978]

And the only conflict I see being generated here is by you and a few other canon defenders who act like any deviation from canon is like spitting on the Bible.
After reading what is going on in the other thread, I feel the need to speak up.

While I personally enjoy seeing what different people come up with that expands on or deviates from cannon, I find your comment above disingenuous.

You didn't show up as a newcomer and just say "hey, here is my take on things and what my group did." You came in here as a newcomer and chose to stir the pot by calling out Legbreaker by name and inserting yourself into preexisting differences on matters of canon. If anyone generated conflict, it was you.

You've taken a very condescending tone toward others. You seem to have a desire to not just be right be right, but to prove that everyone else is wrong. We're talking about what is basically alternate history based on an RPG written in the 1980s. There may not always be one right answer, but instead many possible answers which people can pick and choose from as works best for their group. Your group's game evolved in a certain way - great! That means you had fun added detail where needed.

You've clearly given a lot of time and thought to your materials, and it comes through. I for one hope to see a lot more. But as someone else already said - it's not so much what you are saying, as how you are saying it. You may have read years worth of archived threads, but you are still the new guy.

[Sanjuro]

Having joined a few rpg forums over the last year or two, I have read on others about the damage done by "canon wars" (no pun intended). I had never actually seen one in action.
An escalating argument has managed to set people against each other, who previously could disagree amicably.
I would recommend the use of the "ignore all postings by this user" function if anyone offends you... assuming you haven't already used that function on my posts of course!:D
My personal opinion is that canon is only the material published by GDW, or officially licensed by them. Even the most logical assumption leading from published material can best be described as "canon infers that..."
If, as a group, we want to expand that canon in a joint way, that is still not canon... just a group expansion of "in my T2k world."
As others have said, the GDW T2k material was an immense piece of work by a small company, without the internet to help research, and while also supporting several other games. Much of the knowledge we use to contradict GDW stuff was in fact secret at the time the game was published- I have never forgotten the weird experience of seeing a TV news programme explain during GW1, how a certain weapon system worked. Only 5 or 6 years earlier I had seen a briefing of the same facts, preceded by the warning "You have all signed the Official Secrets Act- if you repeat or discuss this material you will almost certainly be sent to prison, probably for several years."
I have edited this post, in line with Raellus' warning, to remove the part assigning blame for the argument. With hindsight that was not helpful!

[Raellus]

Hi folks.

As a forum moderator, I feel the need to step in here. My cautionary post has been ignored and what I feared is coming to pass. Although most of you are approaching the current canon debate in a more or less responsible, respectful, and constructive manner, a couple of you are clearly not. As a result, I am seriously considering closing this and all other "canon discussion" threads. I will also be discussing this issue with my fellow moderators.

As a community, I really don't think we can afford the kind of drama and acrimony that chases off members. Please, everyone just chill out.

Raellus

[raketenjagdpanzer]

In deference to people who prefer a by the book T2k Canon (e.g. what and only what is printed in the rules and modules, plus Challenge magazine, end of story) I will always say from the outset or perhaps in a new thread that I start "this is non-canon". I tend towards my T2k as more of a "cozy catastrophe" and tend to get away from canon more than a little bit here or there (like the drought and the casualties therefrom), so any efforts or offerings I have will have those leanings.

However, I have tried to steer clear of anything too egregious (Patriot missiles knocking down most of the inbound contacts on Thanksgiving Day, the USN still being mostly intact, etc.) but should I skate that direction I certainly won't "push" it (like saying "hey since the books don't mention any B52s being shot down, we must still have an operational B52 fleet, canon supports it." - that's a bit over the top but I think y'all get where I'm coming from.

Now I am officially out of the business of T2k Forum Drama. I love the overall game, I'd play whether someone was running strict canon or homebrew or whatever, and I am going to go back to talking about T2k, not the politics of canon v. non-canon.