Equipment for a Unified Germany

[Raellus]

Perhaps this has been dealt with before on the old forum, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway. Please note that this assumes the v1.0 timeline.

What kinds of uniforms and equipment would former DDR units assimilated into the Bundeswehr use? I'm wondering about uniforms and small arms in particular (big ticket items like Soviet model AFVs and arty would no doubt continue on in use and not be replaced). Would they continue to use their old issue DDR gear? Would they be issued new or cast-off West German gear?

By the mid to late 90's, the RL [unified] German Army was well on its way to replacing its old, 1957 pattern green combat fatigues and old, M1-style steel pot helmets with the current Flektarn [sic] camo pattern fatigues and balistic helmets. Also, the 7.62mm G3 was on its way out, to be replaced with the newer 5.56mm G36. I'm going to assume that this transition would have taken place even had the Cold War continued and reunification not taken place.

On the other side of The Wall, the DDR army, as of around '87, was still using a rather antiquated "Raindrop" pattern camo uni and odd-shaped steel pot helmet. They were equiped with DDR manufactured AKMs, RPKs, and PKMs.

Would the newly absorbed T2K DDR troops receive phased-out 1957 pattern green combat unis from reserve stocks? Would they transition to NATO weapons or keep their perfectly serviceable AKs?

What do ya'll make of the G11? I figure it still wouldn't have been adopted had the Cold War continued, for the same reasons it was passed over in the real time-line. It was still a pretty neat design. Caseless ammo, a 100-round mag, and no muzzle-rise on full auto until the last round left the barrel!

[Matt Wiser]

Going Home mentions that former East German units still had their Pact weapons and vehicles. Nothing said about uniforms, though I'd bet that they'd get new cammies ASAP. Their original weapons still work, and there's still a lot of Soviet weapons and ammo in East Germany once it's cleared of Ivan. No sense in letting it go to waste, and it's also appropriate that since Ivan made that stuff, he should have it returned to him-by fire, of course.

[Snake Eyes]

What do ya'll make of the G11? I figure it still wouldn't have been adopted had the Cold War continued, for the same reasons it was passed over in the real time-line. It was still a pretty neat design. Caseless ammo, a 100-round mag, and no muzzle-rise on full auto until the last round left the barrel!

I try not to let too much realism get in the way of my fun so in any stock Twilight 2000 Euro campaign I was running back in the day I always had the G-11 come complete with an integral under-barrel 40mm grenade launcher (like an HK-69) and a starlight scope. Expensive and not necessarily general issue in that configuration, but available nonetheless.

Can't reload the ammo, so it was only ever useful as long as the party's supply of 4.7mm Caseless lasted. Oh, but the damage you could do in the meantime. The ammo scarcity eventually became self-balancing, especially as the campaign moved farther from the Central European starting line.

At some point one of my players made me aware of the LSW version (or the LMG-11) so I statted that out too, but nobody ever used one. I don't recall that any of us ever knew about the supposed PDW variant. In retro, I suppose it's kind of munchy, but - like I said - it's all about having fun.

[pmulcahy11b]

Going Home mentions that former East German units still had their Pact weapons and vehicles. Nothing said about uniforms, though I'd bet that they'd get new cammies ASAP. Their original weapons still work, and there's still a lot of Soviet weapons and ammo in East Germany once it's cleared of Ivan. No sense in letting it go to waste, and it's also appropriate that since Ivan made that stuff, he should have it returned to him-by fire, of course.

As far as the uniforms, there's three ways to look at that.

1) You want them to be wearing the same uniforms as you, to prevent friendly fire due to mistaken identity and to impress on them a sense of unity of purpose.

2) There isn't enough time and uniforms available to actually do that.

This could lead to mixed uniforms as a transitional measure.

BTW, I'm not a big fan of each branch of the US military wearing their own combat uniforms. Not only is it wasteful of funds, but see my note above about mistaken identity and friendly fire.

[Targan]

At some point one of my players made me aware of the LSW version (or the LMG-11) so I statted that out too, but nobody ever used one. I don't recall that any of us ever knew about the supposed PDW variant. In retro, I suppose it's kind of munchy, but - like I said - it's all about having fun.
I had an LSW variant turn up in my campaign. The PCs treat it like a relic though and it has only been used in anger once.

[Adm.Lee]

I'd go with the thought that uniforms are way easier to manufacture than weapons, and at least those would change over. Since the soldiers would need to be at least partly re-trained anyway, it would make it easy to keep them out of the line and re-equipped ASAP.
Why would they need re-training? The jargon and doctrine has got to be way different, and the intel guys are going to want to debrief at least the officers and vet them for loyalty. I'm sort of surprised that they divisions weren't broken up and new, integrated, ones formed. Say, using the WG reserve brigades as cadre while the EG leaders are worked over.

[chico20854]

Uniforms and signal gear would be about all I would change.

Vehicles and heavy weapons - too much to replace during an active war, too much retraining required.

Small arms - Muscle memory among your infantrymen is invaluable. Maybe train new recruits on G-3, G-36 or G-11, but what do they do when they get assigned to a squad that has all AK's? (Either way, replacement training will be complicated - the Germans would have to run a regional-based training system like WWII, where units were fed from dedicated unit replacement depots back home that drew from a certain region).

Uniforms - no big deal.

Communications and electronic gear - whenever possible, I'd replace. The Russians might have built "back doors" in, they have better knowledge of how they work and how to spoof them, and spare parts are going to be hard to find. Assigning Bundeswehr communications specialists to NVA formations would be a good way to ensure loyalty or at least watch over what was going on in those units - certainly not iron-clad, but useful, and can be done under the cover of providing trained signallers to service/operate NATO-standard communications equipment.

Munitions - send 'em back to the Russians, one round at a time.

As the war goes on, you'd probably see recovery teams following the front lines to salvage parts from or return to service damaged Pact vehicles, collect & sort small arms, ammunition and other supplies needed to keep the NVA (and other allied forces equipped with Pact gear, like the Egyptian army, the Polish Free Legions and some IPA units) in operation. As former NVA units are brought off the line for rest & refit they might be re-equipped with NATO standard gear as it becomes available. They might compress former NVA units (i.e. reform a NVA battalion, at half strength, into 2 companies of NVA vets with Pact gear and 2 companies of new replacements with NATO gear), which, while disruptive, maintains some unit cohesion and avoids having a mix of systems within a smaller unit.

[pmulcahy11b]

You're going to at least want to give the East Germans the same helmet as the West Germans. Seeing a head pop up with an enemy-style helmet is likely to get you dead real quick, especially if it's dark.

[Raellus]

You're going to at least want to give the East Germans the same helmet as the West Germans. Seeing a head pop up with an enemy-style helmet is likely to get you dead real quick, especially if it's dark.

The old DDR steel helmet is unlike any other. It looks kind of like the helmets the rebel soldiers wear in the first Star Wars movie. There's really no mistaking it for a Soviet model steel helmet. So, if you could train your W. German troops not to shoot at the old E. German model, you could get by. On the other hand, steel helmets in general are not nearly as effective as newer Kevlar ballistic helmets so they'd probably be replaced fairly quickly anyway.

It seems like large scale replacement of DDR gear (including unis) would be tricky once the European war kicked off. There wouldn't be much time to pull former DDR units from the line for retraining and new (or old), West German equipment. Perhaps as units rotated out of the line, this would take place more systematically. So, by 2000, all German units would at least have similar uniforms, although many would continue to be equipped with a mix of NATO/WTO weapons and vehicles.

I know it's 50 years on, but the German army in the later stages of WWII excelled at creating and employing Kamfgruppen (Battle Groups) from the remains of various decimated units. This experience would probably help the Bundeswehr with the OTJ reorganization of units in the early stages of WWIII in Europe.

So, in order of priority, the following items would be replaced (from sooner to later):

Communications and electronics
Uniforms
Small Arms

I think we all agree that DDR/Soviet manufactured AFVs, artillery, and other "big-ticket" items would continue on in use indefinitely.

Thanks for all of the input, guys.

[B.T.]

Hi there, everybody!

I did find this forum on this evening. So, if I am a little late with my answer, that tells you why.

One thing about the uniforms: The rain-drop-patterns, that are/were used by the Czecheslovak and Polish forces are not distuingishable from the East-German uniform, at least in the middle of a fierce firefight! Therefore it would have been complete menace, not to equip the "new" comrades with older style German uniforms! "Flecktarn" and the older "Steingrau-oliv" (Well, that's the official name of the OD uniform-color) are both possible.

I know, that in real life a lot of units were trained in using the AKs. These should not be kept as service rifle, but as they were there, the German conscripts received training with them.

All the rest has been said (Well, written, to be more precise!) before. Vehicles and such would have been kept, I'm certain about that.

I personally believe, that during the war, most soldiers of the Bundeswehr had getten rid of their G11 rifles - no chance to reload the cartridges! As soldiers tend to use equipment they are familiar with, most ex-East-Germans might have tried to get back "their" AK, whereas West-Germans would have tried to get a hand on one of the older G3 rifles.

Wow, my first ever posting in English ... that took it's time. Hope, I my use of the English language is not too bad. I'll do my best to increase my LNG (English) skills, promise:)

[kato13]

Welcome aboard B.T.

Glad you took the time to post. I am sure everyone here will be glad to get your LNG skill moving upward even though you did extremely well for a first attempt.

[Raellus]

Wow, my first ever posting in English ... that took it's time. Hope, I my use of the English language is not too bad. I'll do my best to increase my LNG (English) skills, promise:)

Welcome to the board! Your English is just fine.

Thanks for the input. Your point about the similarities between the various WARPACT "raindrop" pattern camo uniforms is a good one.

Since, by '96, most front line W. German units would certainly have been issued the Flektarn pattern cammies, there would probably be plenty of surplus Steingrau-oliv fatigues lying around to equip front line units of the former GDR army. There'd probably be a few units where you'd see a mix-and-match assortment of Flektarn and OD.

I agree on the G-11 being gradually abandoned in favor of the G-3 with many former GDR units sticking with the locally produced AKM.

I know that in some folks' T2K universe, the Bundeswher was also starting to transition to the more conventional 5.56mm G-36 as of '96 or so. I've also encountered the 5.56mm version of the G-3 (HK-33) in German service in some games as well.

[Marc]

Wow, my first ever posting in English ... that took it's time. Hope, I my use of the English language is not too bad. I'll do my best to increase my LNG (English) skills, promise:)

Welcome B.T.! Here you have another apprentice trying to upgrade the English language skill level. My online dictionary is always burning when I'm in this forum and I'm getting used to the spellchecker spitting on my face without mercy. I must past a morale check roll before trying to post a long reply. And, usually, by the time I've post a reply to a thread, there are already three more replies that probably contain the same information I wished to post...So, don't worry...:D

[Mohoender]

Hello and Welcome B.T. your english is fine. Anyway, I keep rewriting and correcting myself all the time.:D

I think I put that somewhere already but the Ukrainian made T-72/120 would perfectly fit the T-72/120 that is described in cannon. I didn't know for the uniforms and for the planes, hopefully IFF was invented.

http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t72-120.php

[rcaf_777]

Hope this help, some infor I found on the web

[headquarters]

Hi there, everybody!

I did find this forum on this evening. So, if I am a little late with my answer, that tells you why.

One thing about the uniforms: The rain-drop-patterns, that are/were used by the Czecheslovak and Polish forces are not distuingishable from the East-German uniform, at least in the middle of a fierce firefight! Therefore it would have been complete menace, not to equip the "new" comrades with older style German uniforms! "Flecktarn" and the older "Steingrau-oliv" (Well, that's the official name of the OD uniform-color) are both possible.

I know, that in real life a lot of units were trained in using the AKs. These should not be kept as service rifle, but as they were there, the German conscripts received training with them.

All the rest has been said (Well, written, to be more precise!) before. Vehicles and such would have been kept, I'm certain about that.

I personally believe, that during the war, most soldiers of the Bundeswehr had getten rid of their G11 rifles - no chance to reload the cartridges! As soldiers tend to use equipment they are familiar with, most ex-East-Germans might have tried to get back "their" AK, whereas West-Germans would have tried to get a hand on one of the older G3 rifles.

Wow, my first ever posting in English ... that took it's time. Hope, I my use of the English language is not too bad. I'll do my best to increase my LNG (English) skills, promise:)


welcome to the forum.
good info .
Are there many T2K players or enthusiasts in Germany ?

[Legbreaker]

One important factor, at least in the initial stages of reunification, has to be time.
Although the generals, etc who were involved in the talks probably knew well in advance what was going on, the average soldiers, even the vast majority of the upper ranks would certainly have been kept in the dark right up until the last minute. Therefore, there would have been next to no opportunity for preplanning or even stockpiling of supplies of almost any sort to reequip the army of what was until then a seperate country.

Even training of the troops to NOT shoot their allies/former enemies would not have been possible and so the chances of units attacking each other out of confusion (especially since the Poles are reported to have been equipped with similar uniforms) would have to be exceptionally high.

Put another way, can an entire army be expected to reverse it's political outlook in the time between the anouncement of unification and movement east?

Of course that assumes there was an announcement. From what I can see, there wasn't - according to the 1.0 timeline, West German units moved into East Germany and attacked Soviet forces on the 7th of October while East German units stayed in barracks. It wasn't until more than seven weeks later that the East German generals moved to take over the government and two days after that the East German army finally took the field.

Yes, that seven week period is a long time, but the way I read it, it wasn't until the end of Novemeber that the decision was finally made / action taken. In my mind there's no way the Communist civilian government would have used that time to prepare for integration with western forces but they may have ordered the production of pact supplies.

Perhaps the Generals delay was due to preparing the training plans, etc, but I doubt they'd have been able to initiate the programs before the coup as that would have tipped their hand and invited attack by the remaining pact units.

The 2.0/2.2 timeline is a LOT simplier with regard to reunification and integration - they had a few years to accomplish what was needed without the Soviets breathing down their backs.

[Mohoender]

One important factor, at least in the initial stages of reunification, has to be time.
Although the generals, etc who were involved in the talks probably knew well in advance what was going on, the average soldiers, even the vast majority of the upper ranks would certainly have been kept in the dark right up until the last minute. Therefore, there would have been next to no opportunity for preplanning or even stockpiling of supplies of almost any sort to reequip the army of what was until then a seperate country.



An interesting observation but what if it had come the other way around. Why not assuming that the small group of senior officers was backed by a large number of lower ranking officers (colonels and captains)? Then, while the small group of generals were conducting talks with the west, the lower ranks officers would start to prepare the army for the coup while most high ranking officers and officials were left in the dark.

That would resemble the Portuguese revolution of 1974 where the captains move in support of General de Spinola. As for Portugal, this could have come through a political movement that had undermine the army for months (if not years). Of course there was the STASI (PIDE in Portugal) and these would be the ennemy. They might put up some strong resistance and some will with no doubt join with the Pact. However, as in Portugal, the STASI could have underestimated that movement.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Wow, my first ever posting in English ... that took it's time. Hope, I my use of the English language is not too bad. I'll do my best to increase my LNG (English) skills, promise:)

Welcome aboard! Don't worry about your language skills - you get by a lot better in English than I would in German:)

[Legbreaker]

An interesting observation but what if it had come the other way around. Why not assuming that the small group of senior officers was backed by a large number of lower ranking officers (colonels and captains)? Then, while the small group of generals were conducting talks with the west, the lower ranks officers would start to prepare the army for the coup while most high ranking officers and officials were left in the dark.
For reasons of security if nothing else. The more people involved, the more likely somebody will talk to the wrong person and the whole game is up.
I think we can safely assume that word did not leak out before the West Germans moved across the border because if it had, the Soviets undoubtably would have moved against those involved.

The KGB at the time would have to have been very active and political officers surely would be integrated to very low levels thoughout the East German military. I can see the KGB perhaps under the guise of the East German government conducting a purge of all those involved in the talks, even just those rumoured to be involved.

No, I'm fairly confident only a relatively small group of officers with the power and authority to act would have been involved although I'm equally sure there'd have to be hundreds, if not thousands of the lower ranks at least sympathetic to the idea.

[Mohoender]

No, I'm fairly confident only a relatively small group of officers with the power and authority to act would have been involved although I'm equally sure there'd have to be hundreds, if not thousands of the lower ranks at least sympathetic to the idea.

That was the idea behind. In Portugal, the movement involved a small number of officers of course but it had touched (at a political level) thousands of junior officers who had join with Political meeting over the past years.

Of course, these officers and a large number of their soldiers where supporting the coup. As a result, they simply refused to move out of cantonment on the government order and the resistance was only put up by the PIDE. STASI could have been equally blind (actually they were when the wall fall down).

[B.T.]

Hi there everybody!

Thanks for your encouragement and this kind welcome!

I have to admit: I did not even think about the original timeline. I play Twilight 2.2 every now and then and own a copy of the 1st version, but I haven't looked to it in the last 15 years.

Off course, my infos make no sense in the original timeline.

The original timeline would not let enough time for a resupply. More likely, the East-German troops could have been outfitted with colored armbands or the like. But I think, a lot of East Germans (of the original timeline) would have deserted their new army and tried to fight alongside their old allies. There would have been no reason, why most of them should have made up their mind (and switched over to NATO) in such a short time!

Kind regards
B.T.

[pmulcahy11b]

I have to admit: I did not even think about the original timeline. I play Twilight 2.2 every now and then and own a copy of the 1st version, but I haven't looked to it in the last 15 years.

Off course, my infos make no sense in the original timeline.

The original timeline would not let enough time for a resupply. More likely, the East-German troops could have been outfitted with colored armbands or the like. But I think, a lot of East Germans (of the original timeline) would have deserted their new army and tried to fight alongside their old allies. There would have been no reason, why most of them should have made up their mind (and switched over to NATO) in such a short time!

Kind regards
B.T.

Well, IMHO, none of the timelines (including the new 3.0) make total sense -- 1.0's comes the closest, but it's outdated.

As far as wearing armbands or something: having taken a snap shot at someone who wasn't wearing the right shape of helmet (hit him in the face -- and it turned out to be the right thing), I really can't stress enough the need for allied troops to have some kind of recognizable uniform.

With the East and West Germans, it occurs to me that you might have a situation where some of the East German troops switched over to the NATO side, and others that fought with the Soviet/Warsaw Pact side. Lots of confusion for much of the war. Perhaps mass surrenders and desertions to both sides. Some East German troops might even go the partisan route if they couldn't find a "friendly" side to link up with.

[B.T.]

@ pmulcahy11b: You are definitely right. Wearing colored armbands is really not the best of ideas, but it's a question of alternatives.

Armbands have been used on the Eastern front in WWII in winterwar. Both sides used those bands. The last winter uniforms of the Wehrmacht had buttons on their arms, to fix the "color of the day".

In Panama 1989/90 parts of the Panamese Forces were equipped with US-style BDUs. Some of the US-forces therefore fixed white armbands or handkerchiefs to their arms.

Well, not really that effective, I suppose.

The shape of the NVA steelhelmet was/is so unique, that it cannot be mistaken. Recognizing an East German soldier would therefore be no problem!

[chico20854]

We (in the DC Working Group) thought that the difficulties of seriously implementing the v1 canon timeline were too severe and scrapped the whole idea of the NVA remaining in barracks for 7 weeks. In reality, the NVA would have been disarmed faster than you can say "JNA in Bosnia".

For our take on the situation, check out the following three pieces:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/accidents_and_misunderstandings.doc for the political background on the East German entry into the war.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/destruction_of_the_47th_guards.doc for how the NVA "engaged in friendly socialist co-operation against the revanchist Chinese"; and

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/q_n_a_on_the_early_war_in_northern_europe.doc discusses some of the difficulties faced in integrating the Volksmarine and the Kriegsmarine while the Polish Navy and Soviet Baltic Fleet are steaming westward.

[B.T.]

Hi there!

I've been doing some research-work on the internet and in various publications I have here at home. Again, the things I'm going to point out, refer to ver.2 and 2.2.

In real life the German forces had several weapons on trials in the 80ies and early 90ies. Somewere in the internet I found, that the G11 was intended as the firearm for combat units, support units - including artillery an such - should be equipped with the G41, a modification of the older G33. The newer G41 had a new magazin well to use the M16 mags.
The G36 was a newer development, I do not use it in t2k.

There have been other firearms that have since been issued on a small degree, espacially the G8/MG8 (= HK21). There is a photo of a member of the KSK (Kommando Spezial Kräfte = roughly Command of specialized forces), where a HK21 can be seen. This firearm can be outfitted with a spare feed block (?). It is possible to use G3 mags or belted ammo. As these have been fielded in realiy, I let them appear on very few occasions.

Bundesgrenzschutz (West German "Border Guards"), Zoll (Customs) and the various police agencies had used (and received training with) several other firearms, part of them have certainly been in some kind of stores. Among these were the G1 (= FN FAL) and various sniper rifles (HK and Steyr). Pistols included SigSauer, Walther, HK and some more.

It may be of some interest, that in the DDR a heavily modified version of the AK family came to life: the WIEGER family. In reality only about 1000 rifles were made for the Indian army. The action was copied from the AK, but it was for the NATO 5.56 ammo.

All of these weapons can be encountered in t2k, some not in vast numbers, but on occasions.

One last word on knifes an bayonets: Although the Bundeswehr never trained with bayonets, there are models existing for G3 and G41. I use them in the game, although this is not totally conform with reality. In the late 80ies, a knew Field or combat knife was planned. The German firm Eickhorn builds it (The ACK = Advanced Combat Knife, and, yes, that's the German name for it!) up to today. In reality it was not fielded, because of the collaps of the Eastern bloc. Some had been bought privatly and were used by German soldiers. As far as I'm informed, a version for the international market existed, being sold in the US by Colt. It was named "Colt Tactical Combat Knife". Like the AK- and M9-bayonets, knife and scabbard can be put to gether, to cut wires. The German model has a black blade and green plastic scabbard and handle, the Colt model comes in blach completely. The hole thing is isolated, to cut electrical wires.
I use this knife in my games as part of the personal equipment of most German soldiers.

Hope, this gives some new ideas!

[Raellus]

Thanks for the information, B.T. It's nice having a German perspective in a discussion about the German army. I thought the bit about the Border Guard and Police units was especially enlightening and useful.

Personally, I much prefer the v1.0 timeline, since that was the version I grew up with. I have added some newer gear to my campaign since there were several developments in weaponry and equipment between the mid '80s when the game came out and '96, when the Twilight War kicked off. That's why I allow the G-36. I figure it was just coming into service, the G-11 having been issued in limited numbers but having been cancelled due to political/economic considerations. However, in my Twilight world, the G-3 and HK-33 were still more common than either the G-36 or the G-11.

[Targan]

Personally, I much prefer the v1.0 timeline, since that was the version I grew up with. I have added some newer gear to my campaign since there were several developments in weaponry and equipment between the mid '80s when the game came out and '96, when the Twilight War kicked off. That's why I allow the G-36. I figure it was just coming into service, the G-11 having been issued in limited numbers but having been cancelled due to political/economic considerations. However, in my Twilight world, the G-3 and HK-33 were still more common than either the G-36 or the G-11.
Word for word that is how things are in my campaign too.

[natehale1971]

The quickest and simplist answer would have been, would be that the East German soldiers being given a lightweight flecktarn smock to wear over their uniforms to give them something of the West German uniform so they would be seen as 'friendly' forces during the heat of battle. That was something we had said happened in our campaign back on the Ike.

We had used the lull between the West German invasion and the East Germans joining in the battle was spent with the East Germans debating what they where going to do, and this would be when the evidence of how their best troops where used as cannon fodder by their Soviet 'allies' would have been shown to military and civilian alike.

It was during this period the West Germans would have provided the light-weight flektarn smocks to the East German units that had joined them in battle.

We had the East Germans keeping the NVA unit designations (such as Motor Rifle Division instead of Panzergrenadier) and deployed as their own formations resupplied by those forces trained on the same kinds of weapons and equipment that they would be using (such as the regional training commands described earlier on this thread).

[Abbott Shaull]

I'd go with the thought that uniforms are way easier to manufacture than weapons, and at least those would change over. Since the soldiers would need to be at least partly re-trained anyway, it would make it easy to keep them out of the line and re-equipped ASAP.
Why would they need re-training? The jargon and doctrine has got to be way different, and the intel guys are going to want to debrief at least the officers and vet them for loyalty. I'm sort of surprised that they divisions weren't broken up and new, integrated, ones formed. Say, using the WG reserve brigades as cadre while the EG leaders are worked over.
Well at the time in v1 background, the Germans were fighting the Pact forces and needed everyone in the field regardless of their background. Now in real life this is basically what happen. With anyone the rank of Colonel or higher given their walking papers as they were debriefed.

The simple answer why the Division weren't broken up, is no matter what, these units had trained together. You don't want to totally alienated them, since most of the command structure I am sure during the opening hours/days was change for a variety of reason anyway, regardless if they were fighting the same enemy or not.

[Abbott Shaull]

As for weapons, the East German units would fight with what they had. Of course, as the fighting continued and MRD and TDs of the NVA were moved from the line for refit and much needed re-organization, this is why by 2000 they are called Panzer and Panzergrendier units. This could be done by several ways, pulling an entire Division from the line which I can see happening to a couple of them. While others would find themselves sending a Regiment here and Regiment there while they receive fresh Brigades that themselves had been refitted for duty since I am sure West German Divisions needed to be pulled from the line too. In general the MRR and TR would be converted to PzG Brigades and Pz Brigades with little effort to consolidate them, as equipment losses mount up.

New troops entering their ranks would be issue standard West German Equipment.

The overall changing of equipment wouldn't be much of a problem. The former NVA units would use up their supplies, and all capture supplies would be turned over to them for their use. This would work fairly well since the NVA units would be spread along the front. By late 1998 and early 1999 is when the snags of this would show as units that capture equipment/arms would want to keep to use for it own purposes.

[Raellus]

The BMP1A1 "Ost" version of the BMP-1:

I posted an image of a Unified Germany BMP-1 (I can't figure out to post it here) on the FB group and a member responded,

"The BMP-1A1 Ost is even more of an abomination than the standard BMP. The Bundeswehr modified them to be road regulation compliant, took the ATGM off, limited the speed to 50/40 kph (roadd/offroad), ruled the speed in training down to 20 kph to minimize wear and tear, deleted the gas tanks in the back doors and put steps on the side to climb the beast easily and without chances of self-inflicted injuries."

I wonder if the Bundeswehr would have the time or resources to make those mods post v1 reunification.

Apparently, IRL, unified Germany eventually sold most of its former-DDR BMP-1s to Sweden, which refurbished them before selling them on to the Czech Republic. Someone (Paul M?) mentioned in another thread that DDR BMP-1s required asbestos abatement before acceptance for post-Cold War service. Yikes! In a v1 timeline, they all probably stay put in Germany, and are used throughout the Twilight War in Unified Germany service.

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[Tegyrius]

I wonder if the Bundeswehr would have the time or resources to make those mods post v1 reunification.

Almost certainly not. The East German military went straight from sitting out the West German invasion to the late November 1996 coup, and from there into combat against the Warsaw Pact forces already fighting the Bundeswehr in East Germany. Taking motor rifle regiments offline to make those mods would almost literally have been a case of changing the tire while the truck was in motion...

- C.

[shrike6]

Almost certainly not. The East German military went straight from sitting out the West German invasion to the late November 1996 coup, and from there into combat against the Warsaw Pact forces already fighting the Bundeswehr in East Germany. Taking motor rifle regiments offline to make those mods would almost literally have been a case of changing the tire while the truck was in motion...

- C.

Tegyrius is right in my opinion. I don't see how the Ost is possible any sort of quantity in the v1 timeline. Doing it would take time that you just dont have when the war is on your doorstep. “You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.” - Donald Rumsfeld

[Raellus]

Our very own Chalkline created this mockup of a former East German 122mm howitzer mated to a West German Jaguar 2 Raketenjagdpanzer.

To me, this marriage makes perfect sense. HOT and TOW missiles are going to be used up relatively quickly (plus, there are better platforms to employ them from). On the other hand, stockpiles of DDR 122mm rounds would probably last considerably longer, and, aside from continued domestic production in the former East Germany, additional stockpiles could be captured from Pact forces.

This is not a system that would be available on Day 1 to the reunified German military, but rather could appear on the battlefield some time during the first year or two of its participation in the Twilight War.

[ChalkLine]

To have a Bundeswehr invade Poland with the USA I'm going to assume a hardline government. This would be unfortunate because the hardliners still claimed the pre-1939 borders of Germany, I wonder what they'd be doing in occupied Poland and how the Poles would react. Maybe this is why so many Polish units kept fighting for the WTO.

[ToughOmbres]

Perhaps this has been dealt with before on the old forum, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway. Please note that this assumes the v1.0 timeline.

What kinds of uniforms and equipment would former DDR units assimilated into the Bundeswehr use? I'm wondering about uniforms and small arms in particular (big ticket items like Soviet model AFVs and arty would no doubt continue on in use and not be replaced). Would they continue to use their old issue DDR gear? Would they be issued new or cast-off West German gear?

By the mid to late 90's, the RL [unified] German Army was well on its way to replacing its old, 1957 pattern green combat fatigues and old, M1-style steel pot helmets with the current Flektarn [sic] camo pattern fatigues and balistic helmets. Also, the 7.62mm G3 was on its way out, to be replaced with the newer 5.56mm G36. I'm going to assume that this transition would have taken place even had the Cold War continued and reunification not taken place.

On the other side of The Wall, the DDR army, as of around '87, was still using a rather antiquated "Raindrop" pattern camo uni and odd-shaped steel pot helmet. They were equiped with DDR manufactured AKMs, RPKs, and PKMs.

Would the newly absorbed T2K DDR troops receive phased-out 1957 pattern green combat unis from reserve stocks? Would they transition to NATO weapons or keep their perfectly serviceable AKs?

What do ya'll make of the G11? I figure it still wouldn't have been adopted had the Cold War continued, for the same reasons it was passed over in the real time-line. It was still a pretty neat design. Caseless ammo, a 100-round mag, and no muzzle-rise on full auto until the last round left the barrel!

For practical reasons in my view the Eastern half of the Bundeswehr/NVA would continue using East Bloc equipment until supplies and spare parts were exhausted. Armbands for individuals with recognition stripes plus turret/vehicle tops would be marked to minimize fratricide. Put another way, why not keep giving them what they're familiar with to use?

During the NATO offensives into Poland some equipment would be captured from Polish and Soviet forces to pass along to the Eastern half of the Bundeswehr/former NVA. Remember that the DDR had copious amounts of spares and redundancies stockpiled that could continue to be used even given combat attrition.

The militia/Combat Groups of the working class would in my mind use their sanitized (with Nazi markings removed) K98K's, MP44's and Lugers to protect factories, bridges and communications.

Once Operation Omega was complete perhaps it would be feasible to pass along all of the Eastern Bloc equipment to German militia and completely equip the Bundeswehr with German/US equipment-with East Bloc equipment going into storage caches and small amounts going to pro-Western Polish groups.

If you began an immediate transition to Western equipment for the former NVA what would you give them for tanks besides M48A5's? Not inconsequential but not ideal for engaging even semi-modern Soviet bloc tracks.

The G11-in reality parsimony and budget constraints were the main cause of the G11's demise. I'm told there were other problems (that could have been overcome in time) related to moisture in the caseless format. Have no idea if that is accurate-just what I was told. Just my .02.